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Re: [aprsisce] Re: Near by RX-Only iGate is taking all the traffic to the internet.

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  • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
    ... IMHO, the issue isn t with the Receive-Only server, it s with a bi-directional server connected to a filter-fed local server rather than a full-feed-fed
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 11 12:07 PM
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      Hence my parenthetical note copied from below:

      > (Note: All core and
      > Tier 2 servers are "safe" in this fashion. If you're running a local
      > private filtered server and connecting your IGate to it, then you need
      > to not do that and connect your IGate directly to a full-feed-fed server.)

      IMHO, the issue isn't with the Receive-Only server, it's with a
      bi-directional server connected to a filter-fed local server rather than
      a full-feed-fed upstream server. The Bi-Directional IGate operator is
      in direct control of the situation. A Receive-Only IGate can only mess
      up message delivery if the bi-directional IGate is not properly
      connected upstream.

      All (at least bi-directional) IGates should be directly connected to a
      full-feed-fed server that is subsequently fully fed the whole way
      upstream with only a single filtered (IGate) port connection between the
      IGate itself and it's immediately upstream server.

      Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

      On 3/11/2013 2:52 PM, ae5pl wrote:
      > Almost true but not exactly. If Edgar's IGate is connected to a local server (one at his station) which is getting its feed via a filtered port upstream, it is quite possible the upstream server will never realize Edgar's IGate saw the station on RF and therefore never deliver messages for the RF station to Edgar's local server. This is where a RX-only IGate is bad for network integrity. This is a more common configuration than most suspect and I highly discourage rx-only IGates as they add nothing to the network and can, as shown here, cause a decrease in network reliability.
      >
      > 73,
      >
      > Pete AE5PL
      >
      > --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)" <kj4erj@...> wrote:
      >> And regardless of which IGate delivers a given packet first, the APRS-IS
      >> servers will still deliver messages addressed to received stations to
      >> EVERY IGate that passed an original packet, not just the first to pass
      >> the packet. There is no "intelligent" routing in the APRS-IS. Each
      >> server will deliver messages addressed to stations "recently" heard on a
      >> filtered (aka IGate) port to every connection over which packets were
      >> received, provided that said servers are drawing from a full feed and
      >> not a subsequently filtered upstream connection. (Note: All core and
      >> Tier 2 servers are "safe" in this fashion. If you're running a local
      >> private filtered server and connecting your IGate to it, then you need
      >> to not do that and connect your IGate directly to a full-feed-fed server.)
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • ae5pl
      Not really. You are assuming that there is no reason for a ham to run an in-house server on a filtered feed to handle more clients than just the IGate. There
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 11 12:38 PM
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        Not really. You are assuming that there is no reason for a ham to run an in-house server on a filtered feed to handle more clients than just the IGate. There are many people running in-house servers to support your product and other clients on a single, low-bandwidth feed that they do not want to take a full feed. In fact, some of those in-house servers are stand-alone servers with IGates built-in.

        You are focused on public servers in your comment. I pointed out where the common use of non-public servers to provide a single local network feed point are put in jeopardy by these receive-only IGates. I indicated the RX-only IGates provide zero network improvement. I also showed how these receive-only IGates, by their mere presence can cause considerable degradation of the RF network reliability by disabling nearby bidirectional IGates.

        73,

        Pete AE5PL

        PS: I was a proponent of RX-only IGates until I did the math.

        --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)" <kj4erj@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hence my parenthetical note copied from below:
        >
        > > (Note: All core and
        > > Tier 2 servers are "safe" in this fashion. If you're running a local
        > > private filtered server and connecting your IGate to it, then you need
        > > to not do that and connect your IGate directly to a full-feed-fed server.)
        >
        > IMHO, the issue isn't with the Receive-Only server, it's with a
        > bi-directional server connected to a filter-fed local server rather than
        > a full-feed-fed upstream server. The Bi-Directional IGate operator is
        > in direct control of the situation. A Receive-Only IGate can only mess
        > up message delivery if the bi-directional IGate is not properly
        > connected upstream.
        >
        > All (at least bi-directional) IGates should be directly connected to a
        > full-feed-fed server that is subsequently fully fed the whole way
        > upstream with only a single filtered (IGate) port connection between the
        > IGate itself and it's immediately upstream server.
      • James Ewen
        On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Fred Hillhouse ... Great minds think alike... I was going to suggest using a hammer to correct the problem. I ve spent a
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 11 1:04 PM
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          On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Fred Hillhouse
          <fmhillhouse@...> wrote:

          > Yes you can do something about this "problem". Travel to the others
          > station and disconnect the unit. That is not recommended though.

          Great minds think alike... I was going to suggest using a hammer to
          "correct" the problem.

          I've spent a lot of time trying to educate people that the APRS
          network is a network, not just a means to deliver packets to the
          internet. You need to look at your station and it's operational
          parameters with an eye as to how it affects the network, not just
          whether the packets it sends (or handles) get to the internet.

          --
          James
          VE6SRV
        • Lee D Bengston
          Sounds like the WX3in1 is doing it all in hardware with lower latency. I noticed on the website for that product that it does support forwarding messages from
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 11 5:33 PM
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            Sounds like the WX3in1 is doing it all in hardware with lower latency.  I noticed on the website for that product that it does support forwarding messages from APRS-IS to RF, so perhaps the operator could be contacted about configuring it to do that.

            There's an IGate in my area that is always logged into T2SWEDEN, and I have wondered if the owner does that in order to be closer to Finland and therefore aprs.fi in an effort to get credit for more packets gated to APRS-IS.  I don't know if that really works or not, though, but you could always experiment with different servers, and see if there is any difference.  Be sure to avoid T2FINLAND, however, because I understand that is a relatively underpowered machine.

            I've never been able to get a message from the Internet to my D7A unless my own IGate is running, so I suspect the closest IGates to me are Rx-only as well.  I think there are quite a few operators out there with good intentions that are reluctant to enable any IS to RF packet forwarding (and when I first tried IGating I was one of them) for fear of connecting a fire hose to a 1200 baud channel.  In most cases I don't think they realize that checking that IS to RF box means messages only - at least that's what it does by default in at least 2 software packages that I am familiar with.

            It's unfortunate that more IGate operators are not on the "SIG" mailing list and others like this one 'cause there's lots of good information to be had.

            Lee - K5DAT


            On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 1:33 PM, tech_edu <tech_edu@...> wrote:
             

            I have been running APRSISCE for a couple of years without any issues. Now another HAM has decided to put up a RX-Only iGate and I noticed that all the traffic is now getting to APRS-IS through his iGate even though I am hearing all the same packets. I used to be the only iGate in over 100+ miles radius.

            My TNC has changed through the years, but I have been using for over a year now the TNC-X I put together from TNC-X.com and it works very well.

            It is not a big deal, but I wonder if there is anything I could change so packets get iGated though my system to justify keeping the computer on 24/7. The other HAM is using an embedded tnc/igate/digi called WX3in1 Plus made by Microsat.

            Thanks in advance.

            Edgar / KC2UEZ

          • Tony VE6MVP
            ... What SIG mailing list? What others would you suggest? Tony VA6OO
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 11 6:04 PM
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              At 06:33 PM 2013-03-11, Lee D Bengston wrote:


               It's unfortunate that more IGate operators are not on the "SIG" mailing list and others like this one 'cause there's lots of good information to be had.

              What SIG mailing list?  What others would you suggest?

              Tony VA6OO
            • Ben Timmerman.com
              Edgar, What is the call sign on your Digi? The only one I see that is listed as current is KC2UEZ-7. I don’t think that is your Digi. Ben AC4HG From: Lee D
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 11 6:06 PM
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                Edgar,
                    What is the call sign on your Digi?  The only one I see that is listed as current is KC2UEZ-7.  I don’t think that is your Digi.
                Ben
                AC4HG
                 
                Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 8:33 PM
                Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Near by RX-Only iGate is taking all the traffic to the internet.
                 
                 

                Sounds like the WX3in1 is doing it all in hardware with lower latency.  I noticed on the website for that product that it does support forwarding messages from APRS-IS to RF, so perhaps the operator could be contacted about configuring it to do that.

                There's an IGate in my area that is always logged into T2SWEDEN, and I have wondered if the owner does that in order to be closer to Finland and therefore aprs.fi in an effort to get credit for more packets gated to APRS-IS.  I don't know if that really works or not, though, but you could always experiment with different servers, and see if there is any difference.  Be sure to avoid T2FINLAND, however, because I understand that is a relatively underpowered machine.

                I've never been able to get a message from the Internet to my D7A unless my own IGate is running, so I suspect the closest IGates to me are Rx-only as well.  I think there are quite a few operators out there with good intentions that are reluctant to enable any IS to RF packet forwarding (and when I first tried IGating I was one of them) for fear of connecting a fire hose to a 1200 baud channel.  In most cases I don't think they realize that checking that IS to RF box means messages only - at least that's what it does by default in at least 2 software packages that I am familiar with.

                It's unfortunate that more IGate operators are not on the "SIG" mailing list and others like this one 'cause there's lots of good information to be had.

                Lee - K5DAT


                On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 1:33 PM, tech_edu <tech_edu@...> wrote:
                 

                I have been running APRSISCE for a couple of years without any issues. Now another HAM has decided to put up a RX-Only iGate and I noticed that all the traffic is now getting to APRS-IS through his iGate even though I am hearing all the same packets. I used to be the only iGate in over 100+ miles radius.

                My TNC has changed through the years, but I have been using for over a year now the TNC-X I put together from TNC-X.com and it works very well.

                It is not a big deal, but I wonder if there is anything I could change so packets get iGated though my system to justify keeping the computer on 24/7. The other HAM is using an embedded tnc/igate/digi called WX3in1 Plus made by Microsat.

                Thanks in advance.

                Edgar / KC2UEZ

              • tech_edu
                Hi, The iGate I run is under the clubs call K2JJI-5, the RX-Only iGate is W2MRD-10 Thanks, Edgar / KC2UEZ
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 11 8:37 PM
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                  Hi,

                  The iGate I run is under the clubs call K2JJI-5, the RX-Only iGate is W2MRD-10

                  Thanks,
                  Edgar / KC2UEZ

                  --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Timmerman.com" <ben@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Edgar,
                  > What is the call sign on your Digi? The only one I see that is listed as current is KC2UEZ-7. I don’t think that is your Digi.
                  > Ben
                  > AC4HG
                  >
                  > From: Lee D Bengston
                  > Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 8:33 PM
                  > To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Near by RX-Only iGate is taking all the traffic to the internet.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Sounds like the WX3in1 is doing it all in hardware with lower latency. I noticed on the website for that product that it does support forwarding messages from APRS-IS to RF, so perhaps the operator could be contacted about configuring it to do that.
                  >
                  > There's an IGate in my area that is always logged into T2SWEDEN, and I have wondered if the owner does that in order to be closer to Finland and therefore aprs.fi in an effort to get credit for more packets gated to APRS-IS. I don't know if that really works or not, though, but you could always experiment with different servers, and see if there is any difference. Be sure to avoid T2FINLAND, however, because I understand that is a relatively underpowered machine.
                  >
                  > I've never been able to get a message from the Internet to my D7A unless my own IGate is running, so I suspect the closest IGates to me are Rx-only as well. I think there are quite a few operators out there with good intentions that are reluctant to enable any IS to RF packet forwarding (and when I first tried IGating I was one of them) for fear of connecting a fire hose to a 1200 baud channel. In most cases I don't think they realize that checking that IS to RF box means messages only - at least that's what it does by default in at least 2 software packages that I am familiar with.
                  >
                  > It's unfortunate that more IGate operators are not on the "SIG" mailing list and others like this one 'cause there's lots of good information to be had.
                  >
                  > Lee - K5DAT
                  >
                  >
                  > On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 1:33 PM, tech_edu <tech_edu@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I have been running APRSISCE for a couple of years without any issues. Now another HAM has decided to put up a RX-Only iGate and I noticed that all the traffic is now getting to APRS-IS through his iGate even though I am hearing all the same packets. I used to be the only iGate in over 100+ miles radius.
                  >
                  > My TNC has changed through the years, but I have been using for over a year now the TNC-X I put together from TNC-X.com and it works very well.
                  >
                  > It is not a big deal, but I wonder if there is anything I could change so packets get iGated though my system to justify keeping the computer on 24/7. The other HAM is using an embedded tnc/igate/digi called WX3in1 Plus made by Microsat.
                  >
                  > Thanks in advance.
                  >
                  > Edgar / KC2UEZ
                  >
                • tech_edu
                  Hi, I have contacted the OM already, he is running his iGate out of a scanner. I didn t want to just flat out tell him to turn it off, but I did explained
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 11 8:48 PM
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                    Hi,

                    I have contacted the OM already, he is running his iGate out of a scanner. I didn't want to just flat out tell him to turn it off, but I did explained that I was getting the same packets and since I had TX enabled, his iGate wasn't really necessary. But I guess he just ignored my comment.

                    I was thinking maybe there was some buffer/delay that I could modify to speed up the data path to the APRS-IS network. I use the NOAM aprs2 server pool. I noticed the server I connect to changes from time to time.

                    Thanks,
                    Edgar / KC2UEZ

                    --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, Lee D Bengston <kilo5dat@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Sounds like the WX3in1 is doing it all in hardware with lower latency. I
                    > noticed on the website for that product that it does support forwarding
                    > messages from APRS-IS to RF, so perhaps the operator could be contacted
                    > about configuring it to do that.
                    >
                    > There's an IGate in my area that is always logged into T2SWEDEN, and I have
                    > wondered if the owner does that in order to be closer to Finland and
                    > therefore aprs.fi in an effort to get credit for more packets gated to
                    > APRS-IS. I don't know if that really works or not, though, but you could
                    > always experiment with different servers, and see if there is any
                    > difference. Be sure to avoid T2FINLAND, however, because I understand that
                    > is a relatively underpowered machine.
                    >
                    > I've never been able to get a message from the Internet to my D7A unless my
                    > own IGate is running, so I suspect the closest IGates to me are Rx-only as
                    > well. I think there are quite a few operators out there with good
                    > intentions that are reluctant to enable any IS to RF packet forwarding (and
                    > when I first tried IGating I was one of them) for fear of connecting a fire
                    > hose to a 1200 baud channel. In most cases I don't think they realize that
                    > checking that IS to RF box means messages only - at least that's what it
                    > does by default in at least 2 software packages that I am familiar with.
                    >
                    > It's unfortunate that more IGate operators are not on the "SIG" mailing
                    > list and others like this one 'cause there's lots of good information to be
                    > had.
                    >
                    > Lee - K5DAT
                    >
                    >
                    > On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 1:33 PM, tech_edu <tech_edu@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > **
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I have been running APRSISCE for a couple of years without any issues. Now
                    > > another HAM has decided to put up a RX-Only iGate and I noticed that all
                    > > the traffic is now getting to APRS-IS through his iGate even though I am
                    > > hearing all the same packets. I used to be the only iGate in over 100+
                    > > miles radius.
                    > >
                    > > My TNC has changed through the years, but I have been using for over a
                    > > year now the TNC-X I put together from TNC-X.com and it works very well.
                    > >
                    > > It is not a big deal, but I wonder if there is anything I could change so
                    > > packets get iGated though my system to justify keeping the computer on
                    > > 24/7. The other HAM is using an embedded tnc/igate/digi called WX3in1 Plus
                    > > made by Microsat.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks in advance.
                    > >
                    > > Edgar / KC2UEZ
                    > >
                    >
                  • tech_edu
                    Hi, I think that is a good idea, I noticed that I am connected to puerto rico, I will change it to connect to the NY server. Will post later if I see any
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 12 6:52 AM
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                      Hi,

                      I think that is a good idea, I noticed that I am connected to puerto rico, I will change it to connect to the NY server. Will post later if I see any changes.

                      Thanks,
                      Edgar / KC2UEZ

                      --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, Lee D Bengston <kilo5dat@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Sounds like the WX3in1 is doing it all in hardware with lower latency. I
                      > noticed on the website for that product that it does support forwarding
                      > messages from APRS-IS to RF, so perhaps the operator could be contacted
                      > about configuring it to do that.
                      >
                      > There's an IGate in my area that is always logged into T2SWEDEN, and I have
                      > wondered if the owner does that in order to be closer to Finland and
                      > therefore aprs.fi in an effort to get credit for more packets gated to
                      > APRS-IS. I don't know if that really works or not, though, but you could
                      > always experiment with different servers, and see if there is any
                      > difference. Be sure to avoid T2FINLAND, however, because I understand that
                      > is a relatively underpowered machine.
                      >
                      > I've never been able to get a message from the Internet to my D7A unless my
                      > own IGate is running, so I suspect the closest IGates to me are Rx-only as
                      > well. I think there are quite a few operators out there with good
                      > intentions that are reluctant to enable any IS to RF packet forwarding (and
                      > when I first tried IGating I was one of them) for fear of connecting a fire
                      > hose to a 1200 baud channel. In most cases I don't think they realize that
                      > checking that IS to RF box means messages only - at least that's what it
                      > does by default in at least 2 software packages that I am familiar with.
                      >
                      > It's unfortunate that more IGate operators are not on the "SIG" mailing
                      > list and others like this one 'cause there's lots of good information to be
                      > had.
                      >
                      > Lee - K5DAT
                      >
                      >
                      > On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 1:33 PM, tech_edu <tech_edu@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > **
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I have been running APRSISCE for a couple of years without any issues. Now
                      > > another HAM has decided to put up a RX-Only iGate and I noticed that all
                      > > the traffic is now getting to APRS-IS through his iGate even though I am
                      > > hearing all the same packets. I used to be the only iGate in over 100+
                      > > miles radius.
                      > >
                      > > My TNC has changed through the years, but I have been using for over a
                      > > year now the TNC-X I put together from TNC-X.com and it works very well.
                      > >
                      > > It is not a big deal, but I wonder if there is anything I could change so
                      > > packets get iGated though my system to justify keeping the computer on
                      > > 24/7. The other HAM is using an embedded tnc/igate/digi called WX3in1 Plus
                      > > made by Microsat.
                      > >
                      > > Thanks in advance.
                      > >
                      > > Edgar / KC2UEZ
                      > >
                      >
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