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a couple of questions

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  • kc8sfq
    I don t want to be a bandwidth hog, and it appears that I might be. I have my path set to wide 1-1,wide 2-1. I am seeing my call reflected on a couple digi s.
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 4, 2013
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      I don't want to be a bandwidth hog, and it appears that I might be. I have my path set to wide 1-1,wide 2-1. I am seeing my call reflected on a couple digi's. I'm not sure how much I'm really transmitting. The transmit pressure line is too small to interpret safely while driving. However, I am routinely seeing "KC8SFQ-9*2,3 and 4 meaning (I think) My station heard my call sign 2,3,or4 times from digi's. The classic was today, I saw KC8SFQ*8(2)[never seen that before, what does the (2) mean?]. Maybe here, around home, at least, I don't need ANY hops. Is WIDE with out n-N a legit path? That would leave me set for WIDE,Wide2-1. I'm not sure of the exact syntax for the WIDE command, of the top of my head, but I can find that, if the WIDE without n-N logic is sound. Do the bread crumbs on my track actually co-relate to actual transmissions, or are they just internal packets, not necessarily a pull of the PTT?

      Enough questions for tonight. It's been a long day and I need to crash, so I can get up and do it all again tomorrow.

      Thanks and 73, KC8SFQ-9 Ron
    • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
      Please check Configure / Beacon / Why before the next time you go out for a drive. This will insert into your beacon packet the transmit pressure reason for
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 4, 2013
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        Please check Configure / Beacon / Why before the next time you go out for a drive.  This will insert into your beacon packet the transmit pressure reason for the transmission.  Then a quick glance at aprs.fi's raw packets will tell you what parameter is triggering transmissions.

        Also bring up Enables / View Logs / Port(YourPortName) and enable that trace log.  That will capture all activity on <YourPortName> into a trace log, including the received digipeated packets.  This will allow post-analysis of which digipeaters you're hearing your packets back from.

        Make sure Enables / Logging / File Enabled is checked.  This will put all enabled trace log messages into the active APRSIS32*.LOG file.

        If you get someone else to drive, you can also check Configure / Scroller / Show IGate/Digi and instead of just getting *8, you'll see 8 entries in the packet scroller each showing the digipeater that last handled the packet before you received it back.

        Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

        PS.  Here's a quick picture of some of the RF coverage that your station has:





        PPS.  To complicate matters, it appears that the W8HHF-15 IGate is delaying delivering of packets to the APRS-IS.

        See http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=KC8SFQ-9&limit=50&view=normal




        On 2/4/2013 9:43 PM, kc8sfq@... wrote:
        I don't want to be a bandwidth hog, and it appears that I might be. I have my path set to wide 1-1,wide 2-1. I am seeing my call reflected on a couple digi's. I'm not sure how much I'm really transmitting. The transmit pressure line is too small to interpret safely while driving. However, I am routinely seeing "KC8SFQ-9*2,3 and 4 meaning (I think) My station heard my call sign 2,3,or4 times from digi's. The classic was today, I saw KC8SFQ*8(2)[never seen that before, what does the (2) mean?]. Maybe here, around home, at least, I don't need ANY hops. Is WIDE with out n-N a legit path? That would leave me set for WIDE,Wide2-1. I'm not sure of the exact syntax for the WIDE command, of the top of my head, but I can find that, if the WIDE without n-N logic is sound. Do the bread crumbs on my track actually co-relate to actual transmissions, or are they just internal packets, not necessarily a pull of the PTT?
        
        Enough questions for tonight. It's been a long day and I need to crash, so I can get up and do it all again tomorrow.
        
        Thanks and 73, KC8SFQ-9  Ron
        
        
        
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      • Keith VE7GDH
        Ron KC8SFQ-9 wrote... ... WIDE and RELAY have been obsolete for nearly 8 years now, as has been TRACE. The old style digis would ping-pong the first two back
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 4, 2013
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          Ron KC8SFQ-9 wrote...

          > Maybe here, around home, at least, I don't need ANY hops. Is
          > WIDE with out n-N a legit path? That would leave me set for
          > WIDE,Wide2-1. I'm not sure of the exact syntax for the WIDE
          > command, of the top of my head, but I can find that, if the WIDE
          > without n-N logic is sound.

          WIDE and RELAY have been obsolete for nearly 8 years now, as
          has been TRACE. The old style digis would ping-pong the first
          two back and forth with no checking to see if they had already
          digi'd the same packet. TRACE and TRACEn-N have been
          replaced by a traceable WIDEn-N.

          The accepted path for mobile stations in most places these days
          is a two hop WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1. When help isn't needed from a
          fill-in digi, the same thing can be done with a two hop WIDE2-2.
          Fixed stations and (almost) nothing that flies should use WIDE1-1.
          When it is used by mobile stations, it should ONLY be at the
          beginning of the path.

          If you have a high digi nearby that you can hit reliably, especially
          if you are a fixed station, you may get more than adequate coverage
          with a one hop WIDE2-1. I suppose a mobile station could use the
          one hop WIDE1-1, but the former would be recommended. If the
          frequency isn't busy, then a two hop WIDE2-2 should still be
          responsible, especially if you aren't beaconing at an excessive rate.

          Fixing 144.390... www.aprs.org/fix14439.html

          73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
          www.ui-view.org
          --
          "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
        • kc8sfq
          Ref; Maybe here, around home, at least, I don t need ANY hops. Is ... Hi Kieth, When I posted that, it was late after a long day. Perhaps I could clarify a
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 7, 2013
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            Ref; >> Maybe here, around home, at least, I don't need ANY hops. Is
            >> WIDE with out n-N a legit path?

            Hi Kieth,
            When I posted that, it was late after a long day. Perhaps I could clarify a bit. I am almost always mobile except for the times when APRSIS32 is running in the house for the purpose of pre-fetching tiles. There are several reliable digi's around here. I am seeing my packets in the scroller indicating as many as 8 reflections such as: "KC8SFQ-9*8". What I was hoping for was something smaller even than a one hop. I am currently set to "WIDE 1-1, WIDE 2-1. If I understand correctly, That setting will try for a one hop, and failing that will try a two hop. My thinking was that around here, I have excellent coverage with one hop, but might need more hops when I'm out in the sticks.

            73, KC8SFQ-9  Ron





            >
            I suppose a mobile station could use the
            > one hop WIDE1-1, but the former would be recommended. If the
            > frequency isn't busy, then a two hop WIDE2-2 should still be
            > responsible, especially if you aren't beaconing at an excessive rate.
          • kc8sfq
            ... Why........................ Thanks for the tips. Just a couple more weeks of FIRST Robotics build season. Then I ll have time to play radio again. (for
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 7, 2013
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            Hi Lynn, you wrote:
            > Please check Configure / Beacon / Why........................

            Thanks for the tips. Just a couple more weeks of FIRST Robotics build season. Then I'll have time to play radio again. (for anyone interested: USFIRST.ORG to see the next generation of engineers) It's intense, but it's fun.

            Thanks for the message on Tue Morning. It made my day. Oddly, no one that I tried to explain that to, was particularly impressed. I guess if I had grown up with instant messaging in my pocket, I might not be that impressed either. I, however, am old enough to remember my first portable radio. It gobbled "D" cell batteries and received BOTH local stations.

            73, KC8SFQ  Ron

          • Randy Love
            Ron, I see where you are. :) If you only want one hop, set your path to WIDE2-1 only. What happens with a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path is this: A properly configured
            Message 6 of 9 , Feb 7, 2013
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              Ron,

              I see where you are. :)

              If you only want one hop, set your path to WIDE2-1 only.

              What happens with a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path is this:

              A properly configured WIDE2 digipeater will respond to WIDE1-? and WIDE2-? requests.
              So, a WIDE2 digi or a WIDE1-1 fill-in will replace the WIDE1-1 in your path with their callsign and mark the path as completed. So your first hope will be either LANSNG,WIDE1*,WIDE2-1 or WIDE1-1*,WIDE2-1 on the RF network. 

              After that, the next digi will act on the remainder. So let's say CHELSA hears you next, it will replace the WIDE2-1 and mark the hops as used. 
              So, it will look like LANSNG,WIDE1*,CHELSA,WIDE2*

              Now, if multiply digi's that respond to WIDE1 are in range and you can hear them, and they are set to be polite and not key on each other ( which is against the idea of packet fratricide ), you can easily here multiples of your first hop request, and then if several WIDE2 digi's respond to the second hop request, and you hear all of them, then you will get more copies. So, even though you requested two hops, it can easily result in 8 or 10 copies of your packet. Ideally  your packet is spreading outward like the ripples of a rock thrown in a pond. As each digi responds going outward, they may not hear each other, but you may hear them. So, a two hop request doesn't mean only two repeated packets. It means I want two different digipeaters that hear each other to repeat my packet. 

              Clear as mud, right?

              The short answer is "Set your path to WIDE2-1 to request single hop. Realize that single hop does not mean only one repeater will repeat your packet."

              Randy
              WF5X


              On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 6:28 PM, <kc8sfq@...> wrote:
               


              Ref; >> Maybe here, around home, at least, I don't need ANY hops. Is


              >> WIDE with out n-N a legit path?

              Hi Kieth,
              When I posted that, it was late after a long day. Perhaps I could clarify a bit. I am almost always mobile except for the times when APRSIS32 is running in the house for the purpose of pre-fetching tiles. There are several reliable digi's around here. I am seeing my packets in the scroller indicating as many as 8 reflections such as: "KC8SFQ-9*8". What I was hoping for was something smaller even than a one hop. I am currently set to "WIDE 1-1, WIDE 2-1. If I understand correctly, That setting will try for a one hop, and failing that will try a two hop. My thinking was that around here, I have excellent coverage with one hop, but might need more hops when I'm out in the sticks.

              73, KC8SFQ-9  Ron






              >
              I suppose a mobile station could use the
              > one hop WIDE1-1, but the former would be recommended. If the
              > frequency isn't busy, then a two hop WIDE2-2 should still be
              > responsible, especially if you aren't beaconing at an excessive rate.


            • kc8sfq
              ... and WIDE2-? ... Does that mean that my system is requesting WIDE1-1 AND WIDE2-1 with every packet? ... two hop request doesn t mean only two repeated
              Message 7 of 9 , Feb 7, 2013
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                > A properly configured WIDE2 digipeater will respond to WIDE1-?
                and WIDE2-?
                > requests.

                Does that mean that my system is requesting WIDE1-1 AND WIDE2-1 with every packet?

                >So, a two hop request doesn't mean only two repeated packets. It means I want two
                > different digipeaters that hear each other to repeat my packet.
                >
                > Clear as mud, right?

                Well, yes, thank you. It IS clearer than it was. I'll make that change before tomorrow morning's drive. Do I need to go back into the config menu and change it to request more hops when I go outside our well covered local area.

                Thanks and 73, KC8SFQ  Ron
              • Randy Love
                ... via a WIDE1-1 and THEN a hop via a WIDE2-1. The first hop has to be used before the second part of the path is processed. ... you have reasonable beaconing
                Message 8 of 9 , Feb 8, 2013
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                  On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:30 PM, <kc8sfq@...> wrote:
                   


                  > A properly configured WIDE2 digipeater will respond to WIDE1-? and WIDE2-?
                  > requests.

                  Does that mean that my system is requesting WIDE1-1 AND WIDE2-1 with every packet?

                  Yes, each packet sent with a path of WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 is requesting a hop via a WIDE1-1 and THEN a hop via a WIDE2-1. The first hop has to be used before the second part of the path is processed. 

                   
                  >So, a two hop request doesn't mean only two repeated packets. It means I want two
                  > different digipeaters that hear each other to repeat my packet.
                  >
                  > Clear as mud, right?

                  Well, yes, thank you. It IS clearer than it was. I'll make that change before tomorrow morning's drive. Do I need to go back into the config menu and change it to request more hops when I go outside our well covered local area.

                  Generally, if you leave it at WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1, you are fine, as long as you have reasonable beaconing rates. That is the path we recommend in the southern half of Michigan. When you go "Up North" or out of state outside metro areas, WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2 is perfectly fine.
                   
                  Thanks and 73, KC8SFQ  Ron



                  You're welcome.
                  73,
                  Randy
                  WF5X 
                • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                  ... I ll ditto that conclusion. The overall recommendation is WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 for mobiles boosting to WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2 if you know you ll be traveling in the
                  Message 9 of 9 , Feb 8, 2013
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                  On 2/8/2013 9:11 AM, Randy Love wrote:

                  On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:30 PM, <kc8sfq@...> wrote:
                   
                  Well, yes, thank you. It IS clearer than it was. I'll make that change before tomorrow morning's drive. Do I need to go back into the config menu and change it to request more hops when I go outside our well covered local area.

                  Generally, if you leave it at WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1, you are fine, as long as you have reasonable beaconing rates. That is the path we recommend in the southern half of Michigan. When you go "Up North" or out of state outside metro areas, WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2 is perfectly fine.

                  I'll ditto that conclusion.  The overall recommendation is WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 for mobiles boosting to WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2 if you know you'll be traveling in the APRS boondocks.  I believe the Los Angeles (or is it San Fransciso) area have configured their digipeaters to "trap" this path and truncate it to something more in keeping with their dense APRS RF environment.

                  You can check out my APRS coverage maps at the following URLs if you're interested in seeing the activity levels for an upcoming road trip:

                  http://tinyurl.com/APRSAct24
                  http://tinyurl.com/APRSAct00
                  (Note that CoralCDN seems to be having issues for some people, so you may need to remove the ".nyud.net" from those tinyurl expansions)

                  It is perfectly normal in good coverage areas to hear your WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 packet being digipeated multiple times, especially if you can hear the CHLSEA and HOLAND digipeaters in addition to the more local N8TJG-10 digi.  Consider the following 3 copies of one of your commute packets this morning (from my raw RF feed from APRSISCE/32 IGates, times in Eastern):

                  2013-02-08 07:09:19 KC8SFQ-9>APWW10,N8TJG-10*,WIDE1*,CHLSEA*,WIDE2*,qAR,KB8RCO:@120915h4228.26N/08517.33Wp087/009/A=000980(Proj 101%)APRSIS32 for windows
                  2013-02-08 07:09:19 KC8SFQ-9>APWW10,N8TJG-10*,WIDE1*,CHLSEA*,WIDE2*,qAR,W8FSM-3:@120915h4228.26N/08517.33Wp087/009/A=000980(Proj 101%)APRSIS32 for windows
                  2013-02-08 07:09:19 KC8SFQ-9>APWW10,N8TJG-10*,WIDE1*,HOLAND*,WIDE2*,qAR,N8CTT:@120915h4228.26N/08517.33Wp087/009/A=000980(Proj 101%)APRSIS32 for windows

                  According to aprs.fi, this packet was gated by W8DF-5 (running UI-View, so I don't get RF feeds from it) who heard it direct (time is UTC):

                  2013-02-08 12:09:17 UTC: KC8SFQ-9>APWW10,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1,qAR,W8DF-5:@120915h4228.26N/08517.33Wp087/009/A=000980(Proj 101%)APRSIS32 for windows

                  From the first three packets, we know that N8TJG-10 digipeated your packet from the WIDE1-1.  You probably heard that packet come back to you.  Further, both CHLSEA and HOLAND heard N8TJG-10's digipeat and digipeated it again from the WIDE2-1.  If you are in earshot of those high coverage digipeaters, you'd have heard one or both of them, depending on their individual carrier detect delays (the FM capture effect and packet fratricide only works if the digipeaters both heard silence when they wanted to digipeat, otherwise their packets may be sequential instead of concurrent).  So, from that single transmission, you may have heard (at least) 3 digipeats.  If there are other digipeaters that were not heard by APRSISCE/32 IGates, you may have heard them as well, but my raw RF logs wouldn't show those packets to exist.

                  Assuming a relatively close synchronization of timestamps (a fairly rash assumption), we can also see the time delay for 2 digipeats.  Your station generated the packet at 12:09:15.  The direct reception was logged by aprs.fi at 12:09:17.  The three double-hop receptions were logged by my server at 07:09:19 (UTC-5).  Yep, RF propagation and digipeating isn't instantaneous!

                  Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                  PS.  Thanks to KC8RCO, W8FSM-3, and N8CTT for running APRSISCE/32 IGates and contributing to this analysis.

                  PPS.  I've attached a text file with your packets captured from my RF feed from your commute this morning.

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