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RE: [aprsisce] UK Ballooning Regs

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  • Steve Daniels
    I know Colin, have all the regs to hand both those that prohibit and also those that allow you to put a tracker on a Balloon. Not sure 433.800 would be a good
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 9, 2012
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      I know Colin, have all the regs to hand both those that prohibit and also those that allow you to put a tracker on a Balloon. Not sure 433.800 would be a good idea to use, you really don’t want an in use frequency

       

      Steve Daniels

      Amateur Radio Callsign G6UIM

      Torbay Freecycle  Owner

      http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/torbay_freecycle

      APRSISCE/32 Beta tester and WIKI editor http://aprsisce.wikidot.com

       


      From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Colin XSD
      Sent: 09 December 2012 21:59
      To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [aprsisce] UK Ballooning Regs

       

       

      Hi Steve,

      Don't forget there is nothing stopping the 'General Public' from using the UHF ISM/LPD frequencies within the rules some of which happen to be in our 70cm band (on for instance 433.800MHz which happens to be our UHF APRS frequency).


      73,
      Colin
      M0XSD.

      On 09/12/2012 21:41, Steve Daniels wrote:

       

      Will do James, I will quote things as our regulator has a habit of moving documents, and links get broken.

      I misread your reply to my earlier message and thought you were saying not to do anything rather than not to post to the group

       

      Steve Daniels

      Amateur Radio Callsign G6UIM

      Torbay Freecycle  Owner

      http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/torbay_freecycle

      APRSISCE/32 Beta tester and WIKI editor http://aprsisce.wikidot.com

       


      From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of James Ewen
      Sent: 09 December 2012 21:30
      To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [aprsisce] UK Ballooning Regs

       

       

      On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Steve Daniels
      <steve@...> wrote:

      > I hope to add a ballooning page to the wiki, which I hope James will
      > contribute to, is it worth me adding UK info to it, or doing a post here, or
      > none of that

      Added more information to the APRS Wiki ARHAB page. I created a
      section that contains information about the USA (just information that
      was already on the page since US amateurs think the world revolves
      around them), added information about Canadian regulations, and also a
      section for UK regulations.

      Steve, if you can add more information, such as a pull quote from the
      UK regulations where it says you can not use amateur radio airborne,
      that would be good.

      I also added in places for more information about viewing ARHAB
      flights on websites like aprs.fi, db0anf.de, OpenAprs.net. There are
      also sections for using programs like APRSISCE/32, with a brief
      description, and a link back to the APRSISCE/32 wiki page dedicated to
      ARHAB observation and tracking.

      --
      James
      VE6SRV

       

    • Randy Love
      Blind it was. Tnx.
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 9, 2012
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        Blind it was.
        Tnx.

        On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 5:01 PM, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
         

        On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Randy Love <rlove31@...> wrote:

        > I maybe I'm being dense, or blind, or both, but I can't seem to find any
        > of the pages that James has mentioned. Google was not good to me and I
        > usually can find all sorts of obscure stuff using it. I did find the
        > EN_Ballooning page on aprsisce32.wikidot.com, but not the link to the ARHAB
        > stuff at the other APRS Wiki.
        >
        > James, could you post links, please?

        Sure, here it is again.


        On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 7:03 PM, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
        > The main APRS wiki has a page for
        > ballooning. A subpage off of that page which details the UK
        > regulations would be a good place for the information. A hotlink from
        > the ARHAB page linking to the APRSISCE/32 specific balloon tracking
        > page would tie things together. A link from the APRSISCE/32 balloon
        > tracking page to the ARHAB page would get people to the right
        > information.
        >
        > http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=ARHAB

        --
        James
        VE6SRV


      • James Ewen
        ... Being one to always want to stretch the rules, this is interesting to me. What limitations are there for use of the ISM/LPD frequencies? Foremost is
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 9, 2012
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          On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Colin XSD <m0xsd@...> wrote:

          > Don't forget there is nothing stopping the 'General Public' from using the
          > UHF ISM/LPD frequencies within the rules some of which happen to be in our
          > 70cm band (on for instance 433.800MHz which happens to be our UHF APRS
          > frequency).

          Being one to always want to stretch the rules, this is interesting to me.

          What limitations are there for use of the ISM/LPD frequencies?
          Foremost is probably power limitations...

          Can you use FM modulation? Can you use a protocol such as APRS? Is
          there a specification for identification?

          FRS frequencies here in North America require no callsigns, but I can
          call myself "Big Bubba" if I want. I could also use a random
          collection of letters and numbers as well... maybe a random collection
          like "VE6SRV". There would be nothing illegal about that. Obviously
          the FRS frequencies don't overlap the amateur band, but I'm currently
          just talking about identifying a station when identification is not
          necessary.

          If you can legally operate on 433.800 MHz as part of the general
          public, and happen to use a protocol that others are using on that
          frequency (APRS), and use a random callsign, what can they do?

          How would OFCOM prove that you were operating as a licensed amateur
          rather than a member of the general public?

          Use a tactical callsign, and if you want put your amateur callsign in
          the comment.

          The problem over here would be if amateurs tried to communicate with
          the non-licensed station. We are prohibited from doing so. However,
          the unlicensed station transmitting on 433.800 would not be attempting
          to communicate with amateurs, but rather transmitting in the blind.
          Amateur radio stations on the ground would just happen to hear and
          i-gate packets from the airborne unlicensed station. Reception is not
          a crime.

          --
          James
          VE6SRV
        • Colin XSD
          I am by no means an expert on the subject but I think about the only limit is the 10mW ERP Power.
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 9, 2012
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            I am by no means an expert on the subject but I think about the only limit is the 10mW ERP Power.


            On 09/12/2012 22:14, James Ewen wrote:
             

            On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Colin XSD <m0xsd@...> wrote:

            > Don't forget there is nothing stopping the 'General Public' from using the
            > UHF ISM/LPD frequencies within the rules some of which happen to be in our
            > 70cm band (on for instance 433.800MHz which happens to be our UHF APRS
            > frequency).

            Being one to always want to stretch the rules, this is interesting to me.

            What limitations are there for use of the ISM/LPD frequencies?
            Foremost is probably power limitations...

            Can you use FM modulation? Can you use a protocol such as APRS? Is
            there a specification for identification?

            FRS frequencies here in North America require no callsigns, but I can
            call myself "Big Bubba" if I want. I could also use a random
            collection of letters and numbers as well... maybe a random collection
            like "VE6SRV". There would be nothing illegal about that. Obviously
            the FRS frequencies don't overlap the amateur band, but I'm currently
            just talking about identifying a station when identification is not
            necessary.

            If you can legally operate on 433.800 MHz as part of the general
            public, and happen to use a protocol that others are using on that
            frequency (APRS), and use a random callsign, what can they do?

            How would OFCOM prove that you were operating as a licensed amateur
            rather than a member of the general public?

            Use a tactical callsign, and if you want put your amateur callsign in
            the comment.

            The problem over here would be if amateurs tried to communicate with
            the non-licensed station. We are prohibited from doing so. However,
            the unlicensed station transmitting on 433.800 would not be attempting
            to communicate with amateurs, but rather transmitting in the blind.
            Amateur radio stations on the ground would just happen to hear and
            i-gate packets from the airborne unlicensed station. Reception is not
            a crime.

            --
            James
            VE6SRV


          • Steve Daniels
            Anyone can use the frequency band 433.050 to 434.790 MHz. with an ERP of 10mW. It needs to be a type approved transmitter meeting EN 300 220. Any modulation
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 9, 2012
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              Anyone can use the frequency band 433.050 to 434.790 MHz. with an ERP of 10mW. It needs to be a type approved transmitter meeting  EN 300 220.

              Any modulation and even encryption (used for car key fobs etc) can be used, Radiometrix NTX2 are the transmitter module of choice for ballooning

               

              So if you ran an igate on 433.800MHz and a non amateur used APRS on that Frequency, from an RF point of view there is no issue. And not much you can do other than go to the trouble of a civil action, of non amateur use of APRS, pretty sure that would be a waste of time.

               

              The relevant UK regs for Amateurs are as follows

              1(2) The Licensee may use or permit the use of the Radio Equipment by a member of a

              User Service during any operation conducted by a User Service or during any exercise

              Relating to such an operation in each case for the purpose of sending Messages on behalf of

              The User Service.

              1(3) The Licensee may use the Radio Equipment to assist with communications in times of

              Disaster or national or international emergency

               

              9(3) without prejudice to Clause 1 of this Licence, the Licensee shall not establish or use

              The Radio Equipment in any Aircraft or other Airborne Vehicle.

               

              I can use any radio frequency in an emergency (that being officer down etc), and anyone can use my radio on the amateur bands in similar circumstance

               

              Clause 1 overrides clause 9 so the chance is that if you can persuade one of the User Services to agree to an exercise you might be able to do a high power amateur launch. Coastguard for SAR for example

              Steve Daniels

              Amateur Radio Callsign G6UIM

              Torbay Freecycle  Owner

              http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/torbay_freecycle

              APRSISCE/32 Beta tester and WIKI editor http://aprsisce.wikidot.com

               


              From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of James Ewen
              Sent: 09 December 2012 22:15
              To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [aprsisce] UK Ballooning Regs

               

               

              On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Colin XSD <m0xsd@...> wrote:

              > Don't forget there is nothing stopping the 'General Public' from using the
              > UHF ISM/LPD frequencies within the rules some of which happen to be in our
              > 70cm band (on for instance 433.800MHz which happens to be our UHF APRS
              > frequency).

              Being one to always want to stretch the rules, this is interesting to me.

              What limitations are there for use of the ISM/LPD frequencies?
              Foremost is probably power limitations...

              Can you use FM modulation? Can you use a protocol such as APRS? Is
              there a specification for identification?

              FRS frequencies here in North America require no callsigns, but I can
              call myself "Big Bubba" if I want. I could also use a random
              collection of letters and numbers as well... maybe a random collection
              like "VE6SRV". There would be nothing illegal about that. Obviously
              the FRS frequencies don't overlap the amateur band, but I'm currently
              just talking about identifying a station when identification is not
              necessary.

              If you can legally operate on 433.800 MHz as part of the general
              public, and happen to use a protocol that others are using on that
              frequency (APRS), and use a random callsign, what can they do?

              How would OFCOM prove that you were operating as a licensed amateur
              rather than a member of the general public?

              Use a tactical callsign, and if you want put your amateur callsign in
              the comment.

              The problem over here would be if amateurs tried to communicate with
              the non-licensed station. We are prohibited from doing so. However,
              the unlicensed station transmitting on 433.800 would not be attempting
              to communicate with amateurs, but rather transmitting in the blind.
              Amateur radio stations on the ground would just happen to hear and
              i-gate packets from the airborne unlicensed station. Reception is not
              a crime.

              --
              James
              VE6SRV

            • Colin XSD
              ... That is the point I was trying to make Steve. But didn t have enough knowledge to say as much. On a similar but related note: Is it possible to take
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 10, 2012
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                On 09/12/2012 23:50, Steve Daniels wrote:

                So if you ran an igate on 433.800MHz and a non amateur used APRS on that Frequency, from an RF point of view there is no issue. And not much you can do other than go to the trouble of a civil action, of non amateur use of APRS, pretty sure that would be a waste of time.

                 

                That is the point I was trying to make Steve. But didn't have enough knowledge to say as much.

                On a similar but related note:

                Is it possible to take received packets from a non-amateur system (possibly a balloon on a non-standard APRS frequency) and automatically convert them into APRS Objects?

                If so I may also have a Terrestrial use for such a system, I would mostly want to just show the objects on my APRSIS32 system and occasionally pass them to APRS-IS and possibly back out to RF (only for short periods of time, like 1 Hour/Day max).



                73,
                Colin
                M0XSD.
              • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                ... The main APRS-IS is primarily for Amateur-generated traffic only. Firenet was developed for the express purpose that you re describing, but you need to use
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 10, 2012
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                  On 12/10/2012 3:22 AM, Colin XSD wrote:
                  Is it possible to take received packets from a non-amateur system (possibly a balloon on a non-standard APRS frequency) and automatically convert them into APRS Objects?

                  If so I may also have a Terrestrial use for such a system, I would mostly want to just show the objects on my APRSIS32 system and occasionally pass them to APRS-IS and possibly back out to RF (only for short periods of time, like 1 Hour/Day max).

                  The main APRS-IS is primarily for Amateur-generated traffic only.  Firenet was developed for the express purpose that you're describing, but you need to use the firenet-local port (10155), not the normal filtered (14580) port.

                  If anyone has a link to that policy, I'd like to put it on file somewhere...

                  Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                • Colin XSD
                  Thanks Lynn, I will see what I can find out about using Firenet as a solution since I don t particularly want to polute APRS-IS with my objects ( I will email
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 10, 2012
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                    Thanks Lynn,

                    I will see what I can find out about using Firenet as a solution since I don't particularly want to polute APRS-IS with my objects ( I will email you off-list about my actual requirement since it is not specific to APRSISCE/32 as such).


                    73,
                    Colin
                    M0XSD.

                    On 10/12/2012 12:04, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:
                     

                    On 12/10/2012 3:22 AM, Colin XSD wrote:
                    Is it possible to take received packets from a non-amateur system (possibly a balloon on a non-standard APRS frequency) and automatically convert them into APRS Objects?

                    If so I may also have a Terrestrial use for such a system, I would mostly want to just show the objects on my APRSIS32 system and occasionally pass them to APRS-IS and possibly back out to RF (only for short periods of time, like 1 Hour/Day max).

                    The main APRS-IS is primarily for Amateur-generated traffic only.  Firenet was developed for the express purpose that you're describing, but you need to use the firenet-local port (10155), not the normal filtered (14580) port.

                    If anyone has a link to that policy, I'd like to put it on file somewhere...

                    Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


                  • James Ewen
                    ... Canadian regulations prohibit retransmission of transmissions from another service. The rule was written so that people don t automatically repeat audio
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 10, 2012
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                      On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Colin XSD <m0xsd@...> wrote:

                      > Is it possible to take received packets from a non-amateur system
                      > (possibly a balloon on a non-standard APRS frequency) and automatically
                      > convert them into APRS Objects?

                      Canadian regulations prohibit retransmission of transmissions from
                      another service. The rule was written so that people don't
                      automatically repeat audio from another service into the amateur band.

                      Listening to packets from another service and resending them on APRS
                      "could" be seen as a similar issue, *OR* one could argue that they
                      were transmitting the packets on behalf of a third party...

                      Similar precedents are already in place... NWS weather warnings,
                      earthquakes, etc are a somewhat similar situation.

                      Steve had talked about tracking a lifeboat in a similar fashion as
                      well, which was less than overwhelmingly supported.

                      You really would have to look at the concept from all perspectives,
                      and decide on whether what you are wanting to do is of benefit by
                      placing the information onto the APRS RF network.

                      --
                      James
                      VE6SRV
                    • Colin XSD
                      Thanks James but that is why I was wanting to convert them into Objects (under my direct control). I just trying to find loopholes I can use to my advantage
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 10, 2012
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                        Thanks James but that is why I was wanting to convert them into Objects (under my direct control).
                        I just trying to find loopholes I can use to my advantage since OFCOM over here don't allow us to use un-attended beacons without humping through all sorts of hoops.
                        And the use of APRS RF would be an absolute last resort.


                        73,
                        Colin
                        M0XSD.

                        On 10/12/2012 14:06, James Ewen wrote:
                         

                        On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Colin XSD <m0xsd@...> wrote:

                        > Is it possible to take received packets from a non-amateur system
                        > (possibly a balloon on a non-standard APRS frequency) and automatically
                        > convert them into APRS Objects?

                        Canadian regulations prohibit retransmission of transmissions from
                        another service. The rule was written so that people don't
                        automatically repeat audio from another service into the amateur band.

                        Listening to packets from another service and resending them on APRS
                        "could" be seen as a similar issue, *OR* one could argue that they
                        were transmitting the packets on behalf of a third party...

                        Similar precedents are already in place... NWS weather warnings,
                        earthquakes, etc are a somewhat similar situation.

                        Steve had talked about tracking a lifeboat in a similar fashion as
                        well, which was less than overwhelmingly supported.

                        You really would have to look at the concept from all perspectives,
                        and decide on whether what you are wanting to do is of benefit by
                        placing the information onto the APRS RF network.

                        --
                        James
                        VE6SRV


                      • Steve Daniels
                        Our regulations prohibit retransmission of another service also. Which means if I have a digipeater on 433.800, a license free user could transmit APRS and be
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 10, 2012
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                          Our regulations prohibit retransmission of another service also. Which means if I have a digipeater on 433.800, a license free user could transmit APRS and be doing nothing wrong. I however would be by digipeating them.

                          Admittedly a person using 10mW ERP would have to be reasonably close by

                           

                          Steve Daniels

                          Amateur Radio Callsign G6UIM

                          Torbay Freecycle  Owner

                          http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/torbay_freecycle

                          APRSISCE/32 Beta tester and WIKI editor http://aprsisce.wikidot.com

                           


                          From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of James Ewen
                          Sent: 10 December 2012 14:07
                          To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [aprsisce] UK Ballooning Regs, Objects to APRS?

                           

                           

                          On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Colin XSD <m0xsd@...> wrote:

                          > Is it possible to take received packets from a non-amateur system
                          > (possibly a balloon on a non-standard APRS frequency) and automatically
                          > convert them into APRS Objects?

                          Canadian regulations prohibit retransmission of transmissions from
                          another service. The rule was written so that people don't
                          automatically repeat audio from another service into the amateur band.

                          Listening to packets from another service and resending them on APRS
                          "could" be seen as a similar issue, *OR* one could argue that they
                          were transmitting the packets on behalf of a third party...

                          Similar precedents are already in place... NWS weather warnings,
                          earthquakes, etc are a somewhat similar situation.

                          Steve had talked about tracking a lifeboat in a similar fashion as
                          well, which was less than overwhelmingly supported.

                          You really would have to look at the concept from all perspectives,
                          and decide on whether what you are wanting to do is of benefit by
                          placing the information onto the APRS RF network.

                          --
                          James
                          VE6SRV

                        • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                          ... Or airborne and within 100-200 miles if the frequency isn t very busy. Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 10, 2012
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                            On 12/10/2012 9:34 AM, Steve Daniels wrote:

                            Our regulations prohibit retransmission of another service also. Which means if I have a digipeater on 433.800, a license free user could transmit APRS and be doing nothing wrong. I however would be by digipeating them.

                            Admittedly a person using 10mW ERP would have to be reasonably close by



                            Or airborne and within 100-200 miles if the frequency isn't very busy.

                            Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

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