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Re: [aprsisce] Re: Frustration ensues- Any thoughts? I can't send/receive over RF with TT4

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  • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
    ... James was asking about your outbound path as configured under Configure / Beacon / Path. The current WIDEn-N recommendations from
    Message 1 of 24 , Nov 24, 2012
      On 11/24/2012 5:01 PM, Jeffrey H wrote:

      BTW, why is your home station needing to ask for help from other home
      fill-in digipeaters?
      
      I don't understand enough yet to answer this question.  My assumption is that it's based upon my settings within the XML file.   I got these settings here: http://aprsisce.wikidot.com/doc:digipeating   I thought that I was setting myself up as a Wide2 according to those instructions:
      
      "A WIDE2 digi would configure:
      <DigiXform>WIDE1-1=WIDE1*</DigiXform>
      <DigiXform>WIDE2-1=WIDE2*</DigiXform>
      <DigiXform>WIDE2-2=WIDE2-1</DigiXform>"
      
      

      James was asking about your outbound path as configured under Configure / Beacon / Path.  The current WIDEn-N recommendations from http://www.aprs.org/fix14439.html are:



      So your fixed station path should be WIDE2-2 only.

      Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
    • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
      Wiki has been fixed, thank you for pointing that out. However, the link ... Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
      Message 2 of 24 , Nov 24, 2012
        Wiki has been fixed, thank you for pointing that out.  However, the link it included is the "master source".  The Wiki now reads:

        (see New Paradigm or just set it to WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 as a "safe" mobile value or just WIDE2-1 for a fixed station)

        Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


        On 11/24/2012 5:24 PM, Roger Elmore wrote:
        Maybe because a new, inexperienced  user reading the APRSIS32 wiki sees it stated as a "safe" value to use?
        
        http://aprsisce.wikidot.com/menu:configure-beacon
        
        --
        Roger  KJ4AJP
        ________________________________________
        James Ewen wrote:
        
        BTW, why is your home station needing to ask for help from other home
        fill-in digipeaters? We see evidence that your station can be heard by
        a main digipeater in the raw packets on the internet. WIDE1-1 is to be
        used by low powered stations when they can't get heard by the main
        digipeaters. Having higher powered mobiles, home stations, and
        digipeaters asking for help from a home fill-in digipeater is just a
        waste of resources. Having a extra stations digipeating packets when
        not required just causes congestion on the local RF network.
        
        
        
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      • Jeffrey H
        Got it. Thanks. I made the change.
        Message 3 of 24 , Nov 24, 2012
          Got it. Thanks. I made the change.

          --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)" <kj4erj@...> wrote:


          > James was asking about your outbound path as configured under Configure
          > / Beacon / Path. The current WIDEn-N recommendations from
          > http://www.aprs.org/fix14439.html are:
          >
          >
          >
          > So your fixed station path should be WIDE2-2 only.
          >
          > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
          >
        • Roger Elmore
          My Digi/Igate (KJ4AJP-5) is UI-View, so I m not sure if one that is APRSIS32 based is the same. Mine beacons and sends MSG/LOC counts occasionally via RF to
          Message 4 of 24 , Nov 24, 2012
            My Digi/Igate (KJ4AJP-5) is UI-View, so I'm not sure if one that is APRSIS32 based is the same. Mine beacons and sends MSG/LOC counts occasionally via RF to be qAR'd by another IGate. I thought that was normal, and not indicative of an internet failure (I'm in the IT department of the local University and the DIgi/IGate is on their tower and connected to their LAN).

            Am I wrong? That's why I thought Jeff might have a problem with his TX.

            ________________________________________
            James Ewen wrote:

            For packets from your station to be heard via a digipeater and then
            another i-gate means that there was some problem with your internet
            connection.
          • James Ewen
            ... Changing propagation isn t going to change the fact that the packets will get to the APRS-IS stream via your internet connection faster than a 1200 baud RF
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 24, 2012
              On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Jeffrey H <jeff@...> wrote:

              > My expression of hope was towards an improvement in RF propagation
              > conditions, some type of routing/packet handling or some other changing
              > variable that I have yet to fully understand. I began this learning process
              > a week ago but I'm pretty competent with computers.

              Changing propagation isn't going to change the fact that the packets
              will get to the APRS-IS stream via your internet connection faster
              than a 1200 baud RF channel... It may change where your packet is hear
              via RF, but we're talking about a race where your internet connection
              is the Hare, and the RF channel is the Tortoise. When you set both
              packets loose, the Hare is going to win 99% of the time.

              The routing/packet handling variables are under your control for the
              most part. That would be the path elements used in your outgoing path.
              Again however if you are sending the packet out via a Mbps port and a
              1200 bps port, the faster port is always going to win unless there's a
              problem on the faster port. (Which can happen occasionally) Hoping for
              a change there won't make the path used change.

              It is good to know that you've got a good grasp on computers. That
              means that you most likely don't think that these things are magic
              boxes that do strange things all by themselves. You tell the computer
              what to do, and it does just that, even if it isn't what you wanted it
              to do. APRS is all about computers, even the radios with APRS built in
              are purpose built computers, and they do EXACTLY what you ask of them.

              The thing that adds interest to how things work is that we send the
              signals out over RF where they are influenced by many, many factors,
              which in turn adds some "randomness" to the way things work. This is
              especially true for a mobile station where mobile flutter, fading,
              picket-fencing, and a whole host of "random" factors influence the
              reliability of the packet delivery.

              >> For packets from your station to be heard via a digipeater and then
              >> another i-gate means that there was some problem with your internet
              >> connection.
              >
              > This might have been a result of my turning down the APRS-IS port in
              > attempt to see if I could see be seen and and sent to APRS-IS by
              > another station.

              Aha, then you're not relying on hope, but rather doing controlled
              tests to see if the RF portion was working... Perfect! Random changes
              with no idea what variable is causing the changed output can easily
              lead to confusion, but controlled tests with defined changes made, and
              observations correlated makes it easier to gain understanding of what
              is happening, and what variables affect the outcome.

              > I was testing with KJ4AJP and he advised me:
              > "I don't see any indication that your station is transmitting.

              He is a fair distance away on RF to be a really good station to use
              for observation of your station performance. For him to see packets
              from your station, they will probably have to be digipeated at least 2
              times, unless you have some good long range digipeaters between the
              two of you. (180 miles is a pretty long haul) This means that you will
              have to be heard by a digipeater, then digipeated to another
              digipeater that KJ4AJP can hear. If there's lots of activity in your
              area, those digipeats might get clobbered before they can be
              propagated between your two stations.

              > If you're receiving it's beacon on your D72 that means you have the
              > software set up OK, but it's possible to receive the packet locally
              > and distant stations not hear it because your TinyTrak 4 may need
              > tweaking - you could be over or under modulating the TX signal.
              > Then again it could be possible that the other digis can't even hear
              > your Digi/IGate even if it is set up properly, but with 50W into a
              > J-Pole it's hard to believe you're not getting out!"

              He's bang on the money with this statement. You have to get the signal
              from your station set up properly so that others can decode your
              signals.

              > On the "info" page http://aprs.fi/info/KD0TNH-10 there is no listing for
              > "Stations which heard KD0TNH-10 directly on radio" (look at my
              > Digi/IGate's info at http://aprs.fi/info/a/KJ4AJP-5 for an example)

              This is where it falls off the rails though. The APRS-IS only keeps
              the first copy of a packet heard. As stated before, if you are
              connected to the internet, the packets sent directly from your station
              to the internet are going to mask out any packets that traversed the
              RF network and were later gated to the internet.

              > I was trying to get some entries like he has under the belief
              > that I have something configured wrong if I don't.

              Shut down your internet and let the RF network have a chance to hear
              your packets first. You'll need to run for a while to let the
              "randomness" happen for a while to see if more than a couple stations
              can hear your packets and gate them first.

              >> BTW, why is your home station needing to ask for help from other home
              >> fill-in digipeaters?
              >
              > I don't understand enough yet to answer this question. My assumption is that
              > it's based upon my settings within the XML file.

              It is indeed, but remember this is a computer... you put the
              information into the program, and it saved it in the XML file.

              > I got these settings here: http://aprsisce.wikidot.com/doc:digipeating
              > I thought that I was setting myself up as a Wide2 according to those instructions:
              >
              > "A WIDE2 digi would configure:
              > <DigiXform>WIDE1-1=WIDE1*</DigiXform>
              > <DigiXform>WIDE2-1=WIDE2*</DigiXform>
              > <DigiXform>WIDE2-2=WIDE2-1</DigiXform>"

              Okay, that is digipeating. These settings configure your station to
              act as a digipeater. That is you are going to be handling packets from
              other stations. Digipeaters need to be configured and installed after
              careful consideration and consultation with other digipeater owners in
              the area.

              One digipeater in an area is a good thing, as it repeats the packets
              it hears and sends them out over a larger area. This is similar to
              what a voice repeater does, but the digipeater does it by listening
              and then resending the packet on the same frequency. Think about what
              it would sound like with 2 voice repeaters on the same frequency in
              the same area. You'll get heterodyning, and have a hard time hearing
              the audio. Too many overlapping digipeaters, and you get the same
              problem. You can have a listen to what it sounds like when you have 6
              digipeaters within 10 miles of each other. http://youtu.be/ICYFWGGcCWA

              It would be best to NOT configure your station to act as a digipeater
              until you can figure out how to configure your station to be a user on
              the APRS network. Once you get your station working, you can learn
              about how APRS works, and learn about the network as well. Then once
              you have a good understanding you can start talking with others and
              determine if your station could become a useful addition to the
              network.

              What I was talking about was your outgoing path setting. That is the
              path that you are asking the digipeaters in your area to move your
              packets via. Your outgoing path is WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1. You are asking for
              a first hop from home fill-in digipeaters as well as the main
              digipeaters, and then a second hop from the main digipeaters.

              KJ4AJP says that you're running 50 watts into a j-pole antenna...
              you're asking for help from a home fill-in digipeater on your first
              hop. If your neighbor is configured to act as a home fill-in
              digipeater, and they are running at 10 watts with a 1/4 wave antenna
              in the attic, how much help will you be getting from that home fill-in
              digipeater?

              A low powered handheld with 2 watts into a negative gain rubber duck
              antenna asking for help from that 10 watt home station makes sense,
              but a high powered station with a decent gain antenna should not be
              asking for help from a similar type station.

              --
              James
              VE6SRV
            • Jeffrey H
              ... As I said, I had my Internet connection was turned down. ... http://www.wikihow.com/Stop-Being-a-Condescending-Person James, save the trouble and don t
              Message 6 of 24 , Nov 24, 2012
                > Changing propagation isn't going to change the fact that the packets
                > will get to the APRS-IS stream via your internet connection faster
                > than a 1200 baud RF channel...

                As I said, I had my Internet connection was turned down.

                > Hoping for
                > a change there won't make the path used change.
                >
                > It is good to know that you've got a good grasp on computers. That
                > means that you most likely don't think that these things are magic
                > boxes
                > Aha, then you're not relying on hope, but rather doing controlled
                > tests to see if the RF portion was working... Perfect! Random changes
                > with no idea what variable is causing the changed output can easily
                > lead to confusion, but controlled tests with defined changes made, and
                > observations correlated makes it easier to gain understanding of what
                > is happening, and what variables affect the outcome.

                http://www.wikihow.com/Stop-Being-a-Condescending-Person
                James, save the trouble and don't concern yourself with "educating" me any more. I'm not interested in hearing from you.

                Jeff
              • James Ewen
                ... Sorry for trying to answer the question you posed, and in the process learn how APRS works. I guess you re happy with your station not working . Please
                Message 7 of 24 , Nov 24, 2012
                  On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Jeffrey H <jeff@...> wrote:

                  > James, save the trouble and don't concern yourself with "educating"
                  > me any more. I'm not interested in hearing from you.

                  Sorry for trying to answer the question you posed, and in the process
                  learn how APRS works.

                  I guess you're happy with your station "not working".

                  Please don't ask any more questions then... people will just naturally
                  try to help you learn about APRS and annoy you even more.

                  --
                  James
                  VE6SRV
                • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                  Jeff, As you frequent the group, you ll learn about James (and others of the frequent group denizens). He really does answer questions and does an extremely
                  Message 8 of 24 , Nov 25, 2012
                    Jeff,

                    As you frequent the group, you'll learn about James (and others of the
                    frequent group denizens). He really does answer questions and does an
                    extremely good job at it. Sometimes, as you observed, he does come
                    across as... I guess it would be condescending. Just read through those
                    sections and glean the true nuggets of knowledge that are in his every post.

                    And please keep asking questions here. My belief is that for every
                    person that asks a question, there's probably ten or more that are
                    interested in the answer. And asked questions are the only way we'll
                    be able to increase the communal knowledge. And the answer-er cannot
                    assume any particular knowledge level of the question-er, so sometimes
                    the answer may seem pedantic, belittling, or condescending. That's
                    usually just the attempt to bird-shot an unknown level of expertise.
                    Many of us assume no prior knowledge and so our answers may be below
                    your level of intelligence. It'll improve as we pick up on the
                    questioner's level of understanding.

                    Again, just ignore the tone and/or personal jabs (like your volley back
                    to him...) that occur sometimes and focus on the technical aspects and
                    all will go well.

                    Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                    On 11/25/2012 12:33 AM, Jeffrey H wrote:
                    >> Changing propagation isn't going to change the fact that the packets
                    >> will get to the APRS-IS stream via your internet connection faster
                    >> than a 1200 baud RF channel...
                    > As I said, I had my Internet connection was turned down.
                    >
                    >> Hoping for
                    >> a change there won't make the path used change.
                    >>
                    >> It is good to know that you've got a good grasp on computers. That
                    >> means that you most likely don't think that these things are magic
                    >> boxes
                    >> Aha, then you're not relying on hope, but rather doing controlled
                    >> tests to see if the RF portion was working... Perfect! Random changes
                    >> with no idea what variable is causing the changed output can easily
                    >> lead to confusion, but controlled tests with defined changes made, and
                    >> observations correlated makes it easier to gain understanding of what
                    >> is happening, and what variables affect the outcome.
                    > http://www.wikihow.com/Stop-Being-a-Condescending-Person
                    > James, save the trouble and don't concern yourself with "educating" me any more. I'm not interested in hearing from you.
                    >
                    > Jeff
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Rob Giuliano
                    One thing to remember about reading posts and e-mail is that there is little a writer can do that can t be mis-interpreted by the readers own emotion. 
                    Message 9 of 24 , Nov 25, 2012
                      One thing to remember about "reading posts and e-mail" is that there is little a writer can do that can't be mis-interpreted by the readers own emotion.  Therefore, the majority of emotion comes from the reader. 
                       
                      It is better to try and set any emotion aside when reaing the posts as much as possible.
                       
                      Robert Giuliano
                      KB8RCO


                      ---------------------------------------------
                      From: Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...>
                      To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 7:25 AM
                      Subject: [aprsisce] James & personal jabs (was: Frustration...)
                       
                      Jeff,

                      As you frequent the group, you'll learn about James (and others of the
                      frequent group denizens). He really does answer questions and does an
                      extremely good job at it. Sometimes, as you observed, he does come
                      across as... I guess it would be condescending. Just read through those
                      sections and glean the true nuggets of knowledge that are in his every post.

                      And please keep asking questions here. My belief is that for every
                      person that asks a question, there's probably ten or more that are
                      interested in the answer. And asked questions are the only way we'll
                      be able to increase the communal knowledge. And the answer-er cannot
                      assume any particular knowledge level of the question-er, so sometimes
                      the answer may seem pedantic, belittling, or condescending. That's
                      usually just the attempt to bird-shot an unknown level of expertise.
                      Many of us assume no prior knowledge and so our answers may be below
                      your level of intelligence. It'll improve as we pick up on the
                      questioner's level of understanding.

                      Again, just ignore the tone and/or personal jabs (like your volley back
                      to him...) that occur sometimes and focus on the technical aspects and
                      all will go well.

                      Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                      On 11/25/2012 12:33 AM, Jeffrey H wrote:
                      >> Changing propagation isn't going to change the fact that the packets
                      >> will get to the APRS-IS stream via your internet connection faster
                      >> than a 1200 baud RF channel...
                      > As I said, I had my Internet connection was turned down.
                      >
                      >> Hoping for
                      >> a change there won't make the path used change.
                      >>
                      >> It is good to know that you've got a good grasp on computers. That
                      >> means that you most likely don't think that these things are magic
                      >> boxes
                      >> Aha, then you're not relying on hope, but rather doing controlled
                      >> tests to see if the RF portion was working... Perfect! Random changes
                      >> with no idea what variable is causing the changed output can easily
                      >> lead to confusion, but controlled tests with defined changes made, and
                      >> observations correlated makes it easier to gain understanding of what
                      >> is happening, and what variables affect the outcome.
                      > http://www.wikihow.com/Stop-Being-a-Condescending-Person
                      > James, save the trouble and don't concern yourself with "educating" me any more. I'm not interested in hearing from you.
                      >
                      > Jeff
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                    • Steve Daniels
                      James is a very knowledgeable member of the APRSIS group, have had discussions with him, and he has not quite called me an idiot at times, (because I was
                      Message 10 of 24 , Nov 25, 2012

                        James is a very knowledgeable member of the APRSIS group, have had discussions with him, and he has not quite called me an idiot at times, (because I was being), he just made it a paragraph rather than one word ;-)

                        The trouble is most people don’t explain the problem fully, and James as do the rest of us have to guess what you are doing or wanting to do.

                        I for one would buy James a pint if he arrived in the UK

                         

                        Steve Daniels

                        Amateur Radio Callsign G6UIM

                        Torbay Freecycle  Owner

                        http://http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/torbay_freecycle

                        APRSISCE/32 Beta tester and WIKI editor http://aprsisce.wikidot.com

                         


                        From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                        Sent: 25 November 2012 12:26
                        To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [aprsisce] James & personal jabs (was: Frustration...)

                         

                         

                        Jeff,

                        As you frequent the group, you'll learn about James (and others of the
                        frequent group denizens). He really does answer questions and does an
                        extremely good job at it. Sometimes, as you observed, he does come
                        across as... I guess it would be condescending. Just read through those
                        sections and glean the true nuggets of knowledge that are in his every post.

                        And please keep asking questions here. My belief is that for every
                        person that asks a question, there's probably ten or more that are
                        interested in the answer. And asked questions are the only way we'll
                        be able to increase the communal knowledge. And the answer-er cannot
                        assume any particular knowledge level of the question-er, so sometimes
                        the answer may seem pedantic, belittling, or condescending. That's
                        usually just the attempt to bird-shot an unknown level of expertise.
                        Many of us assume no prior knowledge and so our answers may be below
                        your level of intelligence. It'll improve as we pick up on the
                        questioner's level of understanding.

                        Again, just ignore the tone and/or personal jabs (like your volley back
                        to him...) that occur sometimes and focus on the technical aspects and
                        all will go well.

                        Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                        On 11/25/2012 12:33 AM, Jeffrey H wrote:
                        >> Changing propagation isn't going to change the fact that the packets
                        >> will get to the APRS-IS stream via your internet connection faster
                        >> than a 1200 baud RF channel...
                        > As I said, I had my Internet connection was turned down.
                        >
                        >> Hoping for
                        >> a change there won't make the path used change.
                        >>
                        >> It is good to know that you've got a good grasp on computers. That
                        >> means that you most likely don't think that these things are magic
                        >> boxes
                        >> Aha, then you're not relying on hope, but rather doing controlled
                        >> tests to see if the RF portion was working... Perfect! Random changes
                        >> with no idea what variable is causing the changed output can easily
                        >> lead to confusion, but controlled tests with defined changes made, and
                        >> observations correlated makes it easier to gain understanding of what
                        >> is happening, and what variables affect the outcome.
                        > http://www.wikihow.com/Stop-Being-a-Condescending-Person
                        > James, save the trouble and don't concern yourself with "educating" me any more. I'm not interested in hearing from you.
                        >
                        > Jeff
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                      • Steve Daniels
                        I just posted a response. Email is very impersonal, you don t get the facial feedback etc, so a joke can seem like an attack etc. James spends a lot of time
                        Message 11 of 24 , Nov 25, 2012

                          I just posted a response.

                          Email is very impersonal, you  don’t get the facial feedback etc, so a joke can seem like an attack etc.

                          James spends a lot of time helping people out. More so than he needs to.

                           

                           

                          Steve Daniels

                          Amateur Radio Callsign G6UIM

                          Torbay Freecycle  Owner

                          http://http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/torbay_freecycle

                          APRSISCE/32 Beta tester and WIKI editor http://aprsisce.wikidot.com

                           


                          From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rob Giuliano
                          Sent: 26 November 2012 01:46
                          To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [aprsisce] James & personal jabs (was: Frustration...)

                           

                           

                          One thing to remember about "reading posts and e-mail" is that there is little a writer can do that can't be mis-interpreted by the readers own emotion.  Therefore, the majority of emotion comes from the reader. 

                           

                          It is better to try and set any emotion aside when reaing the posts as much as possible.

                           

                          Robert Giuliano
                          KB8RCO

                           

                          ---------------------------------------------

                          From: Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...>
                          To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 7:25 AM
                          Subject: [aprsisce] James & personal jabs (was: Frustration...)

                           

                          Jeff,

                          As you frequent the group, you'll learn about James (and others of the
                          frequent group denizens). He really does answer questions and does an
                          extremely good job at it. Sometimes, as you observed, he does come
                          across as... I guess it would be condescending. Just read through those
                          sections and glean the true nuggets of knowledge that are in his every post.

                          And please keep asking questions here. My belief is that for every
                          person that asks a question, there's probably ten or more that are
                          interested in the answer. And asked questions are the only way we'll
                          be able to increase the communal knowledge. And the answer-er cannot
                          assume any particular knowledge level of the question-er, so sometimes
                          the answer may seem pedantic, belittling, or condescending. That's
                          usually just the attempt to bird-shot an unknown level of expertise.
                          Many of us assume no prior knowledge and so our answers may be below
                          your level of intelligence. It'll improve as we pick up on the
                          questioner's level of understanding.

                          Again, just ignore the tone and/or personal jabs (like your volley back
                          to him...) that occur sometimes and focus on the technical aspects and
                          all will go well.

                          Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                          On 11/25/2012 12:33 AM, Jeffrey H wrote:
                          >> Changing propagation isn't going to change the fact that the packets
                          >> will get to the APRS-IS stream via your internet connection faster
                          >> than a 1200 baud RF channel...
                          > As I said, I had my Internet connection was turned down.
                          >
                          >> Hoping for
                          >> a change there won't make the path used change.
                          >>
                          >> It is good to know that you've got a good grasp on computers. That
                          >> means that you most likely don't think that these things are magic
                          >> boxes
                          >> Aha, then you're not relying on hope, but rather doing controlled
                          >> tests to see if the RF portion was working... Perfect! Random changes
                          >> with no idea what variable is causing the changed output can easily
                          >> lead to confusion, but controlled tests with defined changes made, and
                          >> observations correlated makes it easier to gain understanding of what
                          >> is happening, and what variables affect the outcome.
                          > http://www.wikihow.com/Stop-Being-a-Condescending-Person
                          > James, save the trouble and don't concern yourself with "educating" me any more. I'm not interested in hearing from you.
                          >
                          > Jeff
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >

                        • Colin XSD
                          ... Now there is a subject I am sure I could give James some education. 73, Colin M0XSD.
                          Message 12 of 24 , Nov 26, 2012
                            On 26/11/2012 01:58, Steve Daniels wrote:
                            I for one would buy James a pint if he arrived in the UK
                            Now there is a subject I am sure I could give James some education.


                            73,
                            Colin
                            M0XSD.
                          • Colin XSD
                            I agree Steve, I have had a few run-ins with James myself but I think we are still on speaking terms. The other consideration is the Language barrier, I have
                            Message 13 of 24 , Nov 26, 2012
                              I agree Steve, I have had a few run-ins with James myself but I think we are still on speaking terms.

                              The other consideration is the Language barrier, I have spoken to Lynn on this subject a few times when we have got it wrong between ourselves. The trouble is that we tend to all speak English but don't take into account whether it is British, American or Canadian (or the many other versions, at least Canadian appears to be closer to British than American).


                              73,
                              Colin
                              M0XSD.

                              On 26/11/2012 02:10, Steve Daniels wrote:
                               

                              I just posted a response.

                              Email is very impersonal, you  don’t get the facial feedback etc, so a joke can seem like an attack etc.

                              James spends a lot of time helping people out. More so than he needs to.

                               

                               

                              Steve Daniels

                              Amateur Radio Callsign G6UIM

                              Torbay Freecycle  Owner

                              http://http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/torbay_freecycle

                              APRSISCE/32 Beta tester and WIKI editor http://aprsisce.wikidot.com

                               


                              From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rob Giuliano
                              Sent: 26 November 2012 01:46
                              To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [aprsisce] James & personal jabs (was: Frustration...)

                               

                               

                              One thing to remember about "reading posts and e-mail" is that there is little a writer can do that can't be mis-interpreted by the readers own emotion.  Therefore, the majority of emotion comes from the reader. 

                               

                              It is better to try and set any emotion aside when reaing the posts as much as possible.

                               

                              Robert Giuliano
                              KB8RCO

                               

                              ---------------------------------------------

                              From: Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...>
                              To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 7:25 AM
                              Subject: [aprsisce] James & personal jabs (was: Frustration...)

                               

                              Jeff,

                              As you frequent the group, you'll learn about James (and others of the
                              frequent group denizens). He really does answer questions and does an
                              extremely good job at it. Sometimes, as you observed, he does come
                              across as... I guess it would be condescending. Just read through those
                              sections and glean the true nuggets of knowledge that are in his every post.

                              And please keep asking questions here. My belief is that for every
                              person that asks a question, there's probably ten or more that are
                              interested in the answer. And asked questions are the only way we'll
                              be able to increase the communal knowledge. And the answer-er cannot
                              assume any particular knowledge level of the question-er, so sometimes
                              the answer may seem pedantic, belittling, or condescending. That's
                              usually just the attempt to bird-shot an unknown level of expertise.
                              Many of us assume no prior knowledge and so our answers may be below
                              your level of intelligence. It'll improve as we pick up on the
                              questioner's level of understanding.

                              Again, just ignore the tone and/or personal jabs (like your volley back
                              to him...) that occur sometimes and focus on the technical aspects and
                              all will go well.

                              Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                              On 11/25/2012 12:33 AM, Jeffrey H wrote:
                              >> Changing propagation isn't going to change the fact that the packets
                              >> will get to the APRS-IS stream via your internet connection faster
                              >> than a 1200 baud RF channel...
                              > As I said, I had my Internet connection was turned down.
                              >
                              >> Hoping for
                              >> a change there won't make the path used change.
                              >>
                              >> It is good to know that you've got a good grasp on computers. That
                              >> means that you most likely don't think that these things are magic
                              >> boxes
                              >> Aha, then you're not relying on hope, but rather doing controlled
                              >> tests to see if the RF portion was working... Perfect! Random changes
                              >> with no idea what variable is causing the changed output can easily
                              >> lead to confusion, but controlled tests with defined changes made, and
                              >> observations correlated makes it easier to gain understanding of what
                              >> is happening, and what variables affect the outcome.
                              > http://www.wikihow.com/Stop-Being-a-Condescending-Person
                              > James, save the trouble and don't concern yourself with "educating" me any more. I'm not interested in hearing from you.
                              >
                              > Jeff
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                            • Roger Elmore
                              Well, language barriers and the written communication not the same as face-to-face aside, I reread James post and I didn t see it as condescending and was a
                              Message 14 of 24 , Nov 26, 2012

                                Well, language barriers and the written communication not the same as face-to-face aside, I reread James’ post and I didn’t see it as condescending and was a little surprised at Jeff’s response.  I figured, like Jeff’s subject line said, he was frustrated.  Setting up a TT4 for the first time can get to you, believe me.  Since Jeff’s knowledgeable with computers I’m sure he can relate to helping someone out with something that’s simple to him because he’s had experience with it, but the person he’s trying to help is mad at the situation and shoots the messenger.  Then again, maybe I’m being condescending… <shrug>

                                 

                                From the raw packets, Looks like Jeff’s got KD0TNH (changed from KD0TNH-10) TXing on RF but with a path of WIDE1-1,WID2-2. 

                                 

                                Jeff:

                                Change your path to just WIDE2-2.  Note the spelling.  J

                                 

                                Your status comment is “I-Gate & Fill-In Digi | Kirkwood, MO”, so if you’re running as a Fill-In now, I assume you removed the other two lines in the XML file that concerned WIDE2-N packets?

                                 

                                For your Beacon Comment leave the PHG calculation but use “W1-1, IGate, Kirkwood MO”.  The suggested format for digi beacons is explained here:  http://www.aprs.org/newN/n-n-overlays.txt

                                 

                                Note the 2007 document at that url suggests the symbol to be the “No Digi” green star from the Secondary Symbol Set and an overlay of “1”.  Although it has missing gifs and javascript errors, there is another page  http://www.aprs.org/digi-overlays.html  that “view page source” dates a year later and says a digi that is also an IGate can use an “I” as the overlay, so that’s what I use on mine.

                                 

                                Disable APRS-IS, make sure APRS-RF is OK and send a message to KJ4AJP-1.  Let’s see how it gets here.  J

                                 

                                Question for the group – Hardware digis are normally set to do a local beacon to RF every 10 minutes and a 2-hop every hour.  Is that controllable (or already taken care of in the XML) in APRSIS32?

                                --

                                Roger  KJ4AJP

                                 

                                 

                                From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Colin XSD
                                Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 5:14 AM
                                To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [aprsisce] James & personal jabs

                                 




                                I agree Steve, I have had a few run-ins with James myself but I think we are still on speaking terms.

                                The other consideration is the Language barrier, I have spoken to Lynn on this subject a few times when we have got it wrong between ourselves. The trouble is that we tend to all speak English but don't take into account whether it is British, American or Canadian (or the many other versions, at least Canadian appears to be closer to British than American).


                                73,
                                Colin
                                M0XSD.

                                On 26/11/2012 02:10, Steve Daniels wrote:

                                 

                                I just posted a response.

                                Email is very impersonal, you  don’t get the facial feedback etc, so a joke can seem like an attack etc.

                                James spends a lot of time helping people out. More so than he needs to.

                                 

                                 

                                Steve Daniels

                                Amateur Radio Callsign G6UIM

                                Torbay Freecycle  Owner

                                http://http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/torbay_freecycle

                                APRSISCE/32 Beta tester and WIKI editor http://aprsisce.wikidot.com

                                 


                                From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Giuliano
                                Sent: 26 November 2012 01:46
                                To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [aprsisce] James & personal jabs (was: Frustration...)

                                 

                                 

                                One thing to remember about "reading posts and e-mail" is that there is little a writer can do that can't be mis-interpreted by the readers own emotion.  Therefore, the majority of emotion comes from the reader. 

                                 

                                It is better to try and set any emotion aside when reaing the posts as much as possible.

                                 

                                Robert Giuliano
                                KB8RCO

                                 

                                ---------------------------------------------

                                From: Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...>
                                To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 7:25 AM
                                Subject: [aprsisce] James & personal jabs (was: Frustration...)

                                 

                                Jeff,

                                As you frequent the group, you'll learn about James (and others of the
                                frequent group denizens). He really does answer questions and does an
                                extremely good job at it. Sometimes, as you observed, he does come
                                across as... I guess it would be condescending. Just read through those
                                sections and glean the true nuggets of knowledge that are in his every post.

                                And please keep asking questions here. My belief is that for every
                                person that asks a question, there's probably ten or more that are
                                interested in the answer. And asked questions are the only way we'll
                                be able to increase the communal knowledge. And the answer-er cannot
                                assume any particular knowledge level of the question-er, so sometimes
                                the answer may seem pedantic, belittling, or condescending. That's
                                usually just the attempt to bird-shot an unknown level of expertise.
                                Many of us assume no prior knowledge and so our answers may be below
                                your level of intelligence. It'll improve as we pick up on the
                                questioner's level of understanding.

                                Again, just ignore the tone and/or personal jabs (like your volley back
                                to him...) that occur sometimes and focus on the technical aspects and
                                all will go well.

                                Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                                On 11/25/2012 12:33 AM, Jeffrey H wrote:
                                >> Changing propagation isn't going to change the fact that the packets
                                >> will get to the APRS-IS stream via your internet connection faster
                                >> than a 1200 baud RF channel...
                                > As I said, I had my Internet connection was turned down.
                                >
                                >> Hoping for
                                >> a change there won't make the path used change.
                                >>
                                >> It is good to know that you've got a good grasp on computers. That
                                >> means that you most likely don't think that these things are magic
                                >> boxes
                                >> Aha, then you're not relying on hope, but rather doing controlled
                                >> tests to see if the RF portion was working... Perfect! Random changes
                                >> with no idea what variable is causing the changed output can easily
                                >> lead to confusion, but controlled tests with defined changes made, and
                                >> observations correlated makes it easier to gain understanding of what
                                >> is happening, and what variables affect the outcome.
                                > http://www.wikihow.com/Stop-Being-a-Condescending-Person
                                > James, save the trouble and don't concern yourself with "educating" me any more. I'm not interested in hearing from you.
                                >
                                > Jeff
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >





                              • Steve Daniels
                                You are better placed in the country for educating about beer, having tasted Canadian beer, I would say Canadian s in general need educating but at least they
                                Message 15 of 24 , Nov 26, 2012

                                  You are better placed in the country for educating about beer, having tasted Canadian beer, I would say Canadian’s in general need educating but at least they know what beer is unlike the AmericansJ

                                   

                                  If I came across like I had any issue with James, I don’t, the discussions I have had have been worthwhile ones

                                   

                                  Steve Daniels

                                  Amateur Radio Callsign G6UIM

                                  Torbay Freecycle  Owner

                                  http://http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/torbay_freecycle

                                  APRSISCE/32 Beta tester and WIKI editor http://aprsisce.wikidot.com

                                   


                                  From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Colin XSD
                                  Sent: 26 November 2012 11:04
                                  To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [aprsisce] James & personal jabs

                                   

                                   

                                  On 26/11/2012 01:58, Steve Daniels wrote:

                                  I for one would buy James a pint if he arrived in the UK

                                  Now there is a subject I am sure I could give James some education.


                                  73,
                                  Colin
                                  M0XSD.

                                • Bill Vodall
                                  ... I ll never forget my visit to the Corn Festival in Southern Alberta (Canada) where I was looking forward to a fine local brew or two. Much to my
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Nov 26, 2012
                                    > You are better placed in the country for educating about beer, having
                                    > tasted Canadian beer, I would say Canadian’s in general need educating but
                                    > at least they know what beer is unlike the AmericansJ


                                    I'll never forget my visit to the "Corn Festival" in Southern Alberta
                                    (Canada) where I was looking forward to a fine local brew or two.
                                    Much to my surprise, and dismay, they were proudly serving quality
                                    imported beers - from the US. Sigh - at least the corn was still
                                    fantastic.

                                    Bill
                                  • Steve Daniels
                                    Recommended reading in the UK is the CAMRA good pub guide, which rates Pubs on the quality of the beer, also the pub itself and the food. Colin lives close to
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Nov 26, 2012
                                      Recommended reading in the UK is the CAMRA good pub guide, which rates Pubs
                                      on the quality of the beer, also the pub itself and the food.
                                      Colin lives close to the major brewers in the country although near me ( a
                                      few hundred yards) is a micro brewery, and also a Cider Farm which produes
                                      good Scrumpy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrumpy

                                      To keep on topic next QRU project the Good pub guide APRS edition, and GPX,
                                      would probably be nominated for a Knighthood for that

                                      Steve Daniels
                                      Amateur Radio Callsign G6UIM
                                      Torbay Freecycle Owner
                                      http://http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/torbay_freecycle
                                      APRSISCE/32 Beta tester and WIKI editor http://aprsisce.wikidot.com


                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                      Of Bill Vodall
                                      Sent: 26 November 2012 22:33
                                      To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [aprsisce] James & personal jabs

                                      > You are better placed in the country for educating about beer, having
                                      > tasted Canadian beer, I would say Canadian's in general need educating but
                                      > at least they know what beer is unlike the AmericansJ


                                      I'll never forget my visit to the "Corn Festival" in Southern Alberta
                                      (Canada) where I was looking forward to a fine local brew or two.
                                      Much to my surprise, and dismay, they were proudly serving quality
                                      imported beers - from the US. Sigh - at least the corn was still
                                      fantastic.

                                      Bill


                                      ------------------------------------

                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    • Roger Elmore
                                      OK Jeff. I did not receive the 2012-11-27 03:55:46 UTC message because it was sent to KJ4AJP, my non-message capable weather station. By the same token, the
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Nov 27, 2012

                                        OK Jeff.  I did not receive the 2012-11-27 03:55:46 UTC message because it was sent to KJ4AJP, my non-message capable weather station.  By the same token, the message you sent to W0PC around the same time didn’t make it to him because you used an alpha O rather than the numeric 0 in his call.

                                         

                                        I did not receive your 2012-11-27 05:58:32 UTC message.  I see this packet:

                                         

                                        2012-11-27 05:58:32 UTC: KD0TNH>APWW10,N0OTM-15*,WIDE2-1,qAS,KB0WMU:

                                         

                                        And I see that message in the “Messages of KJ4AJP-1” on aprs.fi

                                         

                                         

                                        Group, I’ll admit to ignorance here.  http://www.aprs-is.net/q.aspx defines qAS being server-to-server.  Since Jeff had APRS-IS disabled, shouldn’t he be seen as a client and the packet qAR’d by the IGate?

                                         

                                         

                                        My message to Jeff had this packet:

                                         

                                        2012-11-26 20:15:44 UTC: KJ4AJP-1>APU25N,WIDE2-2,qAR,KJ4AJP-5:

                                         

                                        My message was from a client (not an IGate being used as a client) and was qAR’d by the IGate, and Jeff received the message.  So I’m curious what’s up. 

                                         

                                        On-Topic because I’ve seen messages on aprs.fi from nearby WB8SKP, who runs an APRSIS32 IGate, that didn’t make it out my IGate to RF to be received by my clients.  I assume these messages originated from his APRSIS32 IGate station (he can confirm or deny, I know he’s subbed to this group). 

                                         

                                        I figure the KJ4AJP-5 IGate is doing its job, but if you think the issue is with that, I’ll take it to the UI-View group.  However, I’m sending messages back and forth from my KJ4AJP-2 iPod to both the KJ4AJP-1 UI-View and KJ4AJP-12 APRSIS32 clients, and on 11/16/12 after I posted my -1 station info in the TH-D72 group (where we originally met Jeff) another D72 user W0KDE out of the blue messaged -1 with his HT saying it was the first chance he had to test his IGate, so we also did a HT-HT QSO through both our IGates – his appears to be UI-View based also.

                                         

                                        Any insight?

                                        --

                                        Roger  KJ4AJP

                                         

                                         

                                        ***************

                                        Previously, Roger Elmore wrote:

                                        Question for the group – Hardware digis are normally set to do a local beacon to RF every 10 minutes and a 2-hop every hour.  Is that controllable (or already taken care of in the XML) in APRSIS32?

                                         

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