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Re: [aprsisce] Re: Crop Circles? NOT!

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  • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
    (Sigh...) ... I just did a Configure / Objects / Create and the DFS button is there. However if any of the following are true, the DFS, DF, and/or PHG buttons
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 2, 2012
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      (Sigh...)

      On 10/2/2012 2:26 PM, James Ewen wrote:

      I was looking for how to get DFS circles, and couldn't find it... looking back in the email archives, I found this thread, and a screen shot.


      Looking in my current development version, I don't have a DFS button... did this not get implemented, or did it get lost over the development cycle?

      I just did a Configure / Objects / Create and the DFS button is there.  However if any of the following are true, the DFS, DF, and/or PHG buttons may be removed:

      1) Is an area object (symbol alternate table lower-case L)
      2) Comment is nnn/nnn/nnn/nnn (I'd have to look up what this one is)
      3) Comment contains DFSnnnn - Yep, you get ONE shot with the DFS configuration dialog, apparently.
      4) Comment contains PHGnnnn

      Weather and JT65 objects will disable the DF and DFS buttons.


      Lynn, did you implement non-reception reports as well? ie, a DFS with a 0 signal strength would create an appropriate sized circle, but filled with dark grey to show an area of non-reception, which is just as important as positive reception reports.

      No, I did not get around to the non-reception reports.  Not even sure if that one made it on the ToDo list...  Just looked at the code and discovered one reason I probably didn't implement it....

      The range of a PHG circle is proportional to the power.  The range of a DFS circle is inversely proportional to the s-units.  What is the range of a dark grey non-reception report DFS circle if the s-units is reported as zero?

      Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


      --
      James
      VE6SRV

      Scratching the scabs off old wounds!



    • James Ewen
      On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) ... (insert maniacal laugh here!) ... Aha, there it is! ... Aha, that may be the culprit...
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 2, 2012
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        On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
        <kj4erj@...> wrote:

        > (Sigh...)

        (insert maniacal laugh here!)

        > I just did a Configure / Objects / Create and the DFS button is there.

        Aha, there it is!

        > However if any of the following are true, the DFS, DF, and/or PHG buttons
        > may be removed:

        > 2) Comment is nnn/nnn/nnn/nnn (I'd have to look up what this one is)

        Aha, that may be the culprit...

        .../.../BRG/NRQ where the first two are CSE/SPD, and we're plotting
        stationary DF objects, so the CSE and SPD are set to null values.

        I was using the right-click|lat/long|New DF here menu item...

        That populates the comment, and thus makes the DFS button unavailable.
        If you do the same sequence but select Create Object Here, you get the
        DF and DFS buttons, but the object name/icon aren't auto-populated.

        When you create a "New DF Here", what information is placed in the
        comment? Is it just random, or is there some method to the madness? It
        looks like New DF Here assumes a DF bearing, and not a DFS report. If
        it's just random noise, leave it blank and then the DF and DFS buttons
        would be available. It is very nice to have the object name and icon
        auto-populated.

        I'm refreshing my knowledge of the DF reports portion of the program,
        and adding information to the Wiki on DF reports.

        > Lynn, did you implement non-reception reports as well? ie, a DFS with a 0
        > signal strength would create an appropriate sized circle, but filled with
        > dark grey to show an area of non-reception, which is just as important as
        > positive reception reports.
        >
        > No, I did not get around to the non-reception reports. Not even sure if
        > that one made it on the ToDo list... Just looked at the code and discovered
        > one reason I probably didn't implement it....
        >
        > The range of a PHG circle is proportional to the power. The range of a
        > DFS circle is inversely proportional to the s-units. What is the range of a
        > dark grey non-reception report DFS circle if the s-units is reported as
        > zero?

        Yup, I remember the conversation... a signal strength of 9 would yield
        the smallest circle since the signal strength indicates close
        proximity. A signal strength of 1 would yield a large circle due to
        the possibly large distance to the unknown transmitter source. A
        non-reception report should equate to at least the same distance as a
        signal strength of 1.

        The basic concept should be that the coverage area shown should show
        reception out to the edge of the receiver sensitivity, and as the
        signal strength increases, the coverage area show shrinks. The higher
        the signal level, the smaller the circle.

        The routines used to generate PHG circles should be pretty similar to
        the DFS reports.

        PHG uses Output Power, HAAT, Antenna Gain and Directivity to create a circle.

        DFS uses Input Signal Level, HAAT, Antenna Gain, Directivity to create a circle.

        If you assume an RX sensitivity of about -120 dBm for maximum
        reception circle size, and then downsize from there as the signal
        strength increases, you should be good... simple, huh? 8)

        --
        James
        VE6SRV
      • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
        ... Thanks for the remainder. If the comment indicates a DF object, then the DFS button disappears as you ve already determined that object s type. ... DF is
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 2, 2012
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          On 10/2/2012 4:58 PM, James Ewen wrote:
          >> 2) Comment is nnn/nnn/nnn/nnn (I'd have to look up what this one is)
          > Aha, that may be the culprit...
          >
          > .../.../BRG/NRQ where the first two are CSE/SPD, and we're plotting
          > stationary DF objects, so the CSE and SPD are set to null values.

          Thanks for the remainder. If the comment indicates a DF object, then
          the DFS button disappears as you've already determined that object's type.

          > I was using the right-click|lat/long|New DF here menu item...

          DF is not the same as DFS.

          > When you create a "New DF Here", what information is placed in the
          > comment? Is it just random, or is there some method to the madness? It
          > looks like New DF Here assumes a DF bearing, and not a DFS report.

          Yes, that is the case. And the range and bearing from the center of the
          map (with the assumption that's likely to be ME) to where you said "New
          DF HERE" is what is pre-populated into the range and bearing, hence
          giving you the initial comment.

          > If
          > it's just random noise, leave it blank and then the DF and DFS buttons
          > would be available. It is very nice to have the object name and icon
          > auto-populated.

          Nope, not random noise, but an interpretation of center vs HERE for DF
          objects.

          > That populates the comment, and thus makes the DFS button unavailable.
          > If you do the same sequence but select Create Object Here, you get the
          > DF and DFS buttons, but the object name/icon aren't auto-populated.

          What would you propose the name/icon be for a generic "Create Object
          HERE"? There's no indication that you're doing anything special so no
          matter what I pick, I'm as likely to be wrong as right.

          > I'm refreshing my knowledge of the DF reports portion of the program,
          > and adding information to the Wiki on DF reports.

          I'm glad you remotely remember how it works, because me, being a
          non-hunter of foxes, have no clue. I'm just the coder here!

          Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
        • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
          ... Ok, so if I calculate the non-reception (0 S-units) range the same as a signal strength of 1, I ll get close enough? ... Yes, that s why it s an inverse.
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 2, 2012
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            On 10/2/2012 4:58 PM, James Ewen wrote:
            > Yup, I remember the conversation... a signal strength of 9 would yield
            > the smallest circle since the signal strength indicates close
            > proximity. A signal strength of 1 would yield a large circle due to
            > the possibly large distance to the unknown transmitter source. A
            > non-reception report should equate to at least the same distance as a
            > signal strength of 1.

            Ok, so if I calculate the non-reception (0 S-units) range the same as a
            signal strength of 1, I'll get close enough?

            > The basic concept should be that the coverage area shown should show
            > reception out to the edge of the receiver sensitivity, and as the
            > signal strength increases, the coverage area show shrinks. The higher
            > the signal level, the smaller the circle.

            Yes, that's why it's an inverse.

            > The routines used to generate PHG circles should be pretty similar to
            > the DFS reports.
            >
            > PHG uses Output Power, HAAT, Antenna Gain and Directivity to create a circle.
            >
            > DFS uses Input Signal Level, HAAT, Antenna Gain, Directivity to create a circle.

            Yes, the only difference in the calculation is where the power/s-units
            go. One is power divided by 10 and the other is 10 divided by S units
            which is why zero s-units is totally not a good idea.

            PHG uses:

            > Info->PHG.range =
            > sqrt(2*Info->PHG.height*sqrt((Info->PHG.power/10.0)*(g/2)));


            DFS uses (ignore the PHG, they share a data structure):

            > Info->PHG.range =
            > sqrt(2*Info->PHG.height*sqrt((10.0/Info->PHG.sunits)*(g/2)));
            > Info->PHG.range *= 0.85; /* Present fudge factor */

            In both cases, g = pow(10,((double)Info->PHG.gain)/10);

            > If you assume an RX sensitivity of about -120 dBm for maximum
            > reception circle size, and then downsize from there as the signal
            > strength increases, you should be good... simple, huh? 8)

            I'm a software engineer, not an RF engineer. If I use 1 for the s-units
            in the range calculation for a non-reception (zero) report, I'll be
            good, right? A simple "yes" or "no" (and a note to that effect in the
            Wiki) would be appreciated.

            Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
          • James Ewen
            ... Well, a directional DF report is not the same as a DFS report. I understand your point though, you are assuming that when one points at a specific
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 2, 2012
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              On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...> wrote:

              >> I was using the right-click|lat/long|New DF here menu item...
              >
              > DF is not the same as DFS.

              Well, a directional DF report is not the same as a DFS report. I
              understand your point though, you are assuming that when one points at
              a specific location, that they are going to enter BRG/NRQ information.
              Stay with me though...

              >> When you create a "New DF Here", what information is placed in the
              >> comment? Is it just random, or is there some method to the madness? It
              >> looks like New DF Here assumes a DF bearing, and not a DFS report.
              >
              > Yes, that is the case. And the range and bearing from the center of the
              > map (with the assumption that's likely to be ME) to where you said "New
              > DF HERE" is what is pre-populated into the range and bearing, hence
              > giving you the initial comment.

              That's not what I am seeing happen though.

              In the right click menu, you can choose New DF @ Center, and the
              bearing/range pre-populated in the comment will be pointing at the
              location that you clicked on the map, and set to the distance closest
              to the range circle for the zoom level you are using. ie the bearing
              inherits the bearing from center TO the location clicked, and distance
              based on your map zoom (As per Bob's conceptualization).

              When I click on a location on the map and select new DF here, I don't
              yet see a correlation as to the values in BRG/NRQ. I thought you might
              have pointed back towards the center of the crosshairs, but that's not
              it.

              >> If
              >> it's just random noise, leave it blank and then the DF and DFS buttons
              >> would be available. It is very nice to have the object name and icon
              >> auto-populated.
              >
              > Nope, not random noise, but an interpretation of center vs HERE for DF
              > objects.

              I'll keep poking to see if I can find that correlation.


              >> That populates the comment, and thus makes the DFS button unavailable.
              >> If you do the same sequence but select Create Object Here, you get the
              >> DF and DFS buttons, but the object name/icon aren't auto-populated.
              >
              > What would you propose the name/icon be for a generic "Create Object
              > HERE"? There's no indication that you're doing anything special so no
              > matter what I pick, I'm as likely to be wrong as right.

              Nope, leave Create Object Here as it is... I'm looking for a way to be
              able to right click on the map and be able to create either a DF or
              DFS object.

              I think the easiest solution would be to utilize the Create New DF
              Here dialog to do this. From what I see, I have to click on the DF
              button to adjust the BRG and NRQ data to get it pointed where I want.
              If the comment was left empty, and the user had the DF and DFS buttons
              available, you'd be good to go.

              >> I'm refreshing my knowledge of the DF reports portion of the program,
              >> and adding information to the Wiki on DF reports.
              >
              > I'm glad you remotely remember how it works, because me, being a
              > non-hunter of foxes, have no clue. I'm just the coder here!

              I'm digging through the grey matter to remember... As I play with it,
              it's coming back. And as an added bonus, I'm creating documentation in
              the wiki this time! That means that the next time I have to try and
              remember I can look it up...

              This is just making me realize just how long it has been since I have
              been out playing with my radios on a Radio Direction Finding
              Exercise...

              We should see if we can get you out from behind that Mountain Dew
              occasionally... 8)

              I keep being amazed at how much functionality there is in
              APRSISCE/32... we have an amazing program available here! I only use a
              fraction of what is available.

              --
              James
              VE6SRV
            • James Ewen
              ... Using an S-Units value of 1 for a non-reception report would be better than what we have now. In reality, the non-reception area should be bigger than the
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 2, 2012
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                On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...> wrote:

                >> A non-reception report should equate to at least the same distance as a
                >> signal strength of 1.
                >
                > Ok, so if I calculate the non-reception (0 S-units) range the same as a
                > signal strength of 1, I'll get close enough?

                >> The routines used to generate PHG circles should be pretty similar to
                >> the DFS reports.
                >>
                >> PHG uses Output Power, HAAT, Antenna Gain and Directivity to create a circle.
                >>
                >> DFS uses Input Signal Level, HAAT, Antenna Gain, Directivity to create a circle.
                >
                > Yes, the only difference in the calculation is where the power/s-units
                > go. One is power divided by 10 and the other is 10 divided by S units
                > which is why zero s-units is totally not a good idea.

                > I'm a software engineer, not an RF engineer. If I use 1 for the s-units
                > in the range calculation for a non-reception (zero) report, I'll be
                > good, right? A simple "yes" or "no" (and a note to that effect in the
                > Wiki) would be appreciated.

                Using an S-Units value of 1 for a non-reception report would be better
                than what we have now. In reality, the non-reception area should be
                bigger than the S1 reception area, but making them the same is close
                enough.

                What about splitting the difference between S1 and S0? S0.5 or such?
                Just a thought...

                To keep you happy though...

                YES.

                --
                James
                VE6SRV

                PS You missed a good chance at a meme from way back with this:

                > I'm a software engineer, not an RF engineer.

                It should have been "Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor, not an RF engineer!"
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