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CE 6.0 vs Windows Mobile

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  • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
    It s time again to resurrect some knowledge from the past related to CE vs Windows Mobile and why devices such as this aren t really as attractive as they
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 1, 2012
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      It's time again to resurrect some knowledge from the past related to CE vs Windows Mobile and why devices such as this aren't really as attractive as they might first appear...

      I would suggest that no one buy any Windows CE-based device specifically for running APRSISCE/32 unless you're ready to buy (at least) 2 and have one drop-shipped to me (only partially kidding).    Windows CE is NOT Windows Mobile, but read on...

      Why?  APRSISCE/32 probably won't run on it.

      Why?  APRSISCE/32 currently supports Windows Mobile 5 or 6 (or 6.1 or 6.5) and Win32 and, by special build only of APRSISCE5x86, CE 5.0 on the x86-compatible processor inside the WebDT 366.

      Why so specific on that last one?  Long answer: http://tinyurl.com/4ay9w22 (link to a uSoft Blog article)

      Short answer:

      Windows Embedded CE is a hard real-time, componentized operating system that can be used by developers to build a wide range of embedded devices - you can think of the operating system as a box of Lego blocks, with CE 6.0 there are approximately 700 components (or Lego blocks) that make up the operating system
      Devices can be based on a range of processor architectures (ARM, MIPS, x86 or SH4) and can be headless or expose some form of user interface.
      The choice of operating system features also determines the application development APIs that are exposed from the device - this means that each CE based embedded device could expose a completely different set of components/technologies and therefore APIs to an application developer (and in many cases devices are closed, so there isn't a 3rd party developer story).

      (Note: that parenthetical is particularly ugly, isn't it?  I was completely and pleasantly shocked that the WebDT folks gave me the necessary CE 5.0 Software Development Kit (SDK) to build APRSISCE5x86 for their model 366)

      So, what makes Windows Mobile so portable (emphasis mine)?

      The Windows Mobile team choose their own specific set of Lego blocks (operating system components), add their custom shell, applications (like Office Mobile), and device specific technologies (like the connection manager for example) - the result is a uniform set of operating system technologies, applications, shell and APIs that are consistent across all Windows Mobile devices - this means that an application written for one Windows Mobile smartphone (or Pocket PC) should run across all Windows Mobile devices (...). Windows Mobile OEMs don't have the ability to customize the underlying operating system/technologies because that would modify the exposed APIs on the platform... - this also means that it's not easy to put Windows Mobile devices into "kiosk mode".

      Some devices may state things like the following, but they're not strong enough, IMHO.

      This kids' netbook computer operates on Windows CE but will not install or run the same Windows programs that can be used on a Windows desktop PC, laptop PC or regular netbook.

      That should have gone on to say that it probably ONLY runs Windows CE 6.0 applications specifically built to run on this particular machine.  There is no such thing as a "standard" Windows CE 6.0 operating system.

      Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

      PS.  This final paragraph is most intriguing.  Consider it carefully and maybe I will decide to ask for one of these for Christmas...But ONLY if I can get a copy of their CE 6.0 SDK!

      So, what else... There is a major difference in the underlying operating system architecture for Windows Mobile 5.0 and Windows Embedded CE 6.0 - Windows Mobile 5.0 is based on the CE 5.0 kernel/architecture - the memory architecture for CE 1.0 through CE 5.0 limits the operating system to running a maximum of 32 processes and each process runs in a 32MB virtual address space - the CE 6.0 release now allows for up to 32,768 processes running at one time, and each process gets a 2GB Virtual Address space to run in. Note tha 32,768 processes is a theoretical limit, the kernel has a 64k handle store, each process starts with at least two handles, so 64k handles divided by two handles equals 32k (32,768) processes - of course a typical application would use more than two handles so the actual number of supported processes is less then 32k, but certainly could be in the hundreds/thousands (can you think of an embedded solution that needs hundreds of processes running?).

    • Rob Giuliano
      But you forgot the Windows 7 aspect - as long as your on your Windows disertation . . . KJ4ERJ For those of you that might still be wondering about
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 1, 2012
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        But you forgot the Windows 7 aspect -> as long as your on your Windows disertation . . .
        KJ4ERJ> For those of you that might still be wondering about APRSISCE/32 being
        KJ4ERJ> ported to Windows 7, I stumbled across this question and answer while
        KJ4ERJ> researching how to play a sound file (for $$$ job, but the knowledge just might
        KJ4ERJ> spill over into APRSISCE/32 <grin>).
        KJ4ERJ>
        KJ4ERJ> Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

        KJ4ERJ> How do you port the code of an application on Windows Mobile 6.5 to Windows Phone 7?


        Robert Giuliano
        KB8RCO

        ---------------------------------------------

        --- On Wed, 2/1/12, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...> wrote:

        From: Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...>
        Subject: [aprsisce] CE 6.0 vs Windows Mobile
        To: "John Albano" <jcalbano@...>, aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2012, 8:56 AM

         
        It's time again to resurrect some knowledge from the past related to CE vs Windows Mobile and why devices such as this aren't really as attractive as they might first appear...

        I would suggest that no one buy any Windows CE-based device specifically for running APRSISCE/32 unless you're ready to buy (at least) 2 and have one drop-shipped to me (only partially kidding).    Windows CE is NOT Windows Mobile, but read on...

        Why?  APRSISCE/32 probably won't run on it.

        Why?  APRSISCE/32 currently supports Windows Mobile 5 or 6 (or 6.1 or 6.5) and Win32 and, by special build only of APRSISCE5x86, CE 5.0 on the x86-compatible processor inside the WebDT 366.

        Why so specific on that last one?  Long answer: http://tinyurl.com/4ay9w22 (link to a uSoft Blog article)

        Short answer:

        Windows Embedded CE is a hard real-time, componentized operating system that can be used by developers to build a wide range of embedded devices - you can think of the operating system as a box of Lego blocks, with CE 6.0 there are approximately 700 components (or Lego blocks) that make up the operating system
        Devices can be based on a range of processor architectures (ARM, MIPS, x86 or SH4) and can be headless or expose some form of user interface.
        The choice of operating system features also determines the application development APIs that are exposed from the device - this means that each CE based embedded device could expose a completely different set of components/technologies and therefore APIs to an application developer (and in many cases devices are closed, so there isn't a 3rd party developer story).

        (Note: that parenthetical is particularly ugly, isn't it?  I was completely and pleasantly shocked that the WebDT folks gave me the necessary CE 5.0 Software Development Kit (SDK) to build APRSISCE5x86 for their model 366)

        So, what makes Windows Mobile so portable (emphasis mine)?

        The Windows Mobile team choose their own specific set of Lego blocks (operating system components), add their custom shell, applications (like Office Mobile), and device specific technologies (like the connection manager for example) - the result is a uniform set of operating system technologies, applications, shell and APIs that are consistent across all Windows Mobile devices - this means that an application written for one Windows Mobile smartphone (or Pocket PC) should run across all Windows Mobile devices (...). Windows Mobile OEMs don't have the ability to customize the underlying operating system/technologies because that would modify the exposed APIs on the platform... - this also means that it's not easy to put Windows Mobile devices into "kiosk mode".

        Some devices may state things like the following, but they're not strong enough, IMHO.

        This kids' netbook computer operates on Windows CE but will not install or run the same Windows programs that can be used on a Windows desktop PC, laptop PC or regular netbook.

        That should have gone on to say that it probably ONLY runs Windows CE 6.0 applications specifically built to run on this particular machine.  There is no such thing as a "standard" Windows CE 6.0 operating system.

        Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

        PS.  This final paragraph is most intriguing.  Consider it carefully and maybe I will decide to ask for one of these for Christmas...But ONLY if I can get a copy of their CE 6.0 SDK!

        So, what else... There is a major difference in the underlying operating system architecture for Windows Mobile 5.0 and Windows Embedded CE 6.0 - Windows Mobile 5.0 is based on the CE 5.0 kernel/architecture - the memory architecture for CE 1.0 through CE 5.0 limits the operating system to running a maximum of 32 processes and each process runs in a 32MB virtual address space - the CE 6.0 release now allows for up to 32,768 processes running at one time, and each process gets a 2GB Virtual Address space to run in. Note tha 32,768 processes is a theoretical limit, the kernel has a 64k handle store, each process starts with at least two handles, so 64k handles divided by two handles equals 32k (32,768) processes - of course a typical application would use more than two handles so the actual number of supported processes is less then 32k, but certainly could be in the hundreds/thousands (can you think of an embedded solution that needs hundreds of processes running?).

      • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
        Windows Phone 7 is completely different than Windows Mobile as well. Windows Phone 7, as I understand it, requires all programs to be written as managed code
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 1, 2012
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          Windows Phone 7 is completely different than Windows Mobile as well.  Windows Phone 7, as I understand it, requires all programs to be written as "managed code" and "signed" in order to execute.  APRSISCE/32 is written in 100% native "C" code against the original Win32 API (Application Programming Interface).  I have no plans to port this to managed or signed anything.  IMHO, this is uSoft's attempt to reign in the platform and get it back under their closer control similar to the iPlatform approach..

          I'll be going to Android before I go to Windows Phone 7 or iAnything, but not until I can no longer purchase a new or used replacement for my Windows Mobile phone.

          Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

          PS.  http://tinyurl.com/79n9vr2 asks "How do you port the code of an application on Windows Mobile 6.5 to Windows Phone 7?" and answers "In short, you don't. Even if there is some crazy tool out there that claims to do this, don't."

          And http://tinyurl.com/83mubw2 asks "I have an application running successfully on Windows Mobile 6.5. Is it possible to port that application to Windows Phone 7?" and answers "If the application is written with .NET you should be able to port over your business logic. The biggest change you will have to make it rewriting your UI, since in Windows Phone 7 you must write the UI using Silverlight or XNA.", but the real zinger is "If your application is written in C++ you will have to rewrite it all." and C is effectively the same as C++ in this case.

          On 2/1/2012 1:08 PM, Rob Giuliano wrote:
          But you forgot the Windows 7 aspect -> as long as your on your Windows disertation . . .
          KJ4ERJ> For those of you that might still be wondering about APRSISCE/32 being
          KJ4ERJ> ported to Windows 7, I stumbled across this question and answer while
          KJ4ERJ> researching how to play a sound file (for $$$ job, but the knowledge just might
          KJ4ERJ> spill over into APRSISCE/32 <grin>).
          KJ4ERJ>
          KJ4ERJ> Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

          KJ4ERJ> How do you port the code of an application on Windows Mobile 6.5 to Windows Phone 7?


          Robert Giuliano
          KB8RCO

          ---------------------------------------------

          --- On Wed, 2/1/12, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...> wrote:

          From: Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...>
          Subject: [aprsisce] CE 6.0 vs Windows Mobile
          To: "John Albano" <jcalbano@...>, aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2012, 8:56 AM

           
          It's time again to resurrect some knowledge from the past related to CE vs Windows Mobile and why devices such as this aren't really as attractive as they might first appear...

          I would suggest that no one buy any Windows CE-based device specifically for running APRSISCE/32 unless you're ready to buy (at least) 2 and have one drop-shipped to me (only partially kidding).    Windows CE is NOT Windows Mobile, but read on...

          Why?  APRSISCE/32 probably won't run on it.

          Why?  APRSISCE/32 currently supports Windows Mobile 5 or 6 (or 6.1 or 6.5) and Win32 and, by special build only of APRSISCE5x86, CE 5.0 on the x86-compatible processor inside the WebDT 366.

          Why so specific on that last one?  Long answer: http://tinyurl.com/4ay9w22 (link to a uSoft Blog article)

          Short answer:

          Windows Embedded CE is a hard real-time, componentized operating system that can be used by developers to build a wide range of embedded devices - you can think of the operating system as a box of Lego blocks, with CE 6.0 there are approximately 700 components (or Lego blocks) that make up the operating system
          Devices can be based on a range of processor architectures (ARM, MIPS, x86 or SH4) and can be headless or expose some form of user interface.
          The choice of operating system features also determines the application development APIs that are exposed from the device - this means that each CE based embedded device could expose a completely different set of components/technologies and therefore APIs to an application developer (and in many cases devices are closed, so there isn't a 3rd party developer story).

          (Note: that parenthetical is particularly ugly, isn't it?  I was completely and pleasantly shocked that the WebDT folks gave me the necessary CE 5.0 Software Development Kit (SDK) to build APRSISCE5x86 for their model 366)

          So, what makes Windows Mobile so portable (emphasis mine)?

          The Windows Mobile team choose their own specific set of Lego blocks (operating system components), add their custom shell, applications (like Office Mobile), and device specific technologies (like the connection manager for example) - the result is a uniform set of operating system technologies, applications, shell and APIs that are consistent across all Windows Mobile devices - this means that an application written for one Windows Mobile smartphone (or Pocket PC) should run across all Windows Mobile devices (...). Windows Mobile OEMs don't have the ability to customize the underlying operating system/technologies because that would modify the exposed APIs on the platform... - this also means that it's not easy to put Windows Mobile devices into "kiosk mode".

          Some devices may state things like the following, but they're not strong enough, IMHO.

          This kids' netbook computer operates on Windows CE but will not install or run the same Windows programs that can be used on a Windows desktop PC, laptop PC or regular netbook.

          That should have gone on to say that it probably ONLY runs Windows CE 6.0 applications specifically built to run on this particular machine.  There is no such thing as a "standard" Windows CE 6.0 operating system.

          Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

          PS.  This final paragraph is most intriguing.  Consider it carefully and maybe I will decide to ask for one of these for Christmas...But ONLY if I can get a copy of their CE 6.0 SDK!

          So, what else... There is a major difference in the underlying operating system architecture for Windows Mobile 5.0 and Windows Embedded CE 6.0 - Windows Mobile 5.0 is based on the CE 5.0 kernel/architecture - the memory architecture for CE 1.0 through CE 5.0 limits the operating system to running a maximum of 32 processes and each process runs in a 32MB virtual address space - the CE 6.0 release now allows for up to 32,768 processes running at one time, and each process gets a 2GB Virtual Address space to run in. Note tha 32,768 processes is a theoretical limit, the kernel has a 64k handle store, each process starts with at least two handles, so 64k handles divided by two handles equals 32k (32,768) processes - of course a typical application would use more than two handles so the actual number of supported processes is less then 32k, but certainly could be in the hundreds/thousands (can you think of an embedded solution that needs hundreds of processes running?).


        • Fred Hillhouse
          Greetings WIKI authors (minus Lynn who should be adding APRSISCE/32 features), All of this might be useful to add to the WIKI so that in the future a link can
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 1, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Greetings WIKI authors (minus Lynn who should be adding APRSISCE/32 features),
             
            All of this might be useful to add to the WIKI so that in the future a link can be pointed to.
             
            Best regards,
            Fred, N7FMH


            From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
            Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 13:59
            To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [aprsisce] Windows Phone 7 (was: CE 6.0 vs Windows Mobile)

             

            Windows Phone 7 is completely different than Windows Mobile as well.  Windows Phone 7, as I understand it, requires all programs to be written as "managed code" and "signed" in order to execute.  APRSISCE/32 is written in 100% native "C" code against the original Win32 API (Application Programming Interface).  I have no plans to port this to managed or signed anything.  IMHO, this is uSoft's attempt to reign in the platform and get it back under their closer control similar to the iPlatform approach..

            I'll be going to Android before I go to Windows Phone 7 or iAnything, but not until I can no longer purchase a new or used replacement for my Windows Mobile phone.

            Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

            PS.  http://tinyurl.com/79n9vr2 asks "How do you port the code of an application on Windows Mobile 6.5 to Windows Phone 7?" and answers "In short, you don't. Even if there is some crazy tool out there that claims to do this, don't."

            And http://tinyurl.com/83mubw2 asks "I have an application running successfully on Windows Mobile 6.5. Is it possible to port that application to Windows Phone 7?" and answers "If the application is written with .NET you should be able to port over your business logic. The biggest change you will have to make it rewriting your UI, since in Windows Phone 7 you must write the UI using Silverlight or XNA.", but the real zinger is "If your application is written in C++ you will have to rewrite it all." and C is effectively the same as C++ in this case.

            On 2/1/2012 1:08 PM, Rob Giuliano wrote:

            But you forgot the Windows 7 aspect -> as long as your on your Windows disertation . . .
            KJ4ERJ> For those of you that might still be wondering about APRSISCE/32 being
            KJ4ERJ> ported to Windows 7, I stumbled across this question and answer while
            KJ4ERJ> researching how to play a sound file (for $$$ job, but the knowledge just might
            KJ4ERJ> spill over into APRSISCE/32 <grin>).
            KJ4ERJ>
            KJ4ERJ> Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

            KJ4ERJ> How do you port the code of an application on Windows Mobile 6.5 to Windows Phone 7?


            Robert Giuliano
            KB8RCO

            ---------------------------------------------

            --- On Wed, 2/1/12, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...> wrote:

            From: Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...>
            Subject: [aprsisce] CE 6.0 vs Windows Mobile
            To: "John Albano" <jcalbano@...>, aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2012, 8:56 AM

             
            It's time again to resurrect some knowledge from the past related to CE vs Windows Mobile and why devices such as this aren't really as attractive as they might first appear...

            I would suggest that no one buy any Windows CE-based device specifically for running APRSISCE/32 unless you're ready to buy (at least) 2 and have one drop-shipped to me (only partially kidding).    Windows CE is NOT Windows Mobile, but read on...

            Why?  APRSISCE/32 probably won't run on it.

            Why?  APRSISCE/32 currently supports Windows Mobile 5 or 6 (or 6.1 or 6.5) and Win32 and, by special build only of APRSISCE5x86, CE 5.0 on the x86-compatible processor inside the WebDT 366.

            Why so specific on that last one?  Long answer: http://tinyurl.com/4ay9w22 (link to a uSoft Blog article)

            Short answer:

            Windows Embedded CE is a hard real-time, componentized operating system that can be used by developers to build a wide range of embedded devices - you can think of the operating system as a box of Lego blocks, with CE 6.0 there are approximately 700 components (or Lego blocks) that make up the operating system
            Devices can be based on a range of processor architectures (ARM, MIPS, x86 or SH4) and can be headless or expose some form of user interface.
            The choice of operating system features also determines the application development APIs that are exposed from the device - this means that each CE based embedded device could expose a completely different set of components/technologies and therefore APIs to an application developer (and in many cases devices are closed, so there isn't a 3rd party developer story).

            (Note: that parenthetical is particularly ugly, isn't it?  I was completely and pleasantly shocked that the WebDT folks gave me the necessary CE 5.0 Software Development Kit (SDK) to build APRSISCE5x86 for their model 366)

            So, what makes Windows Mobile so portable (emphasis mine)?

            The Windows Mobile team choose their own specific set of Lego blocks (operating system components), add their custom shell, applications (like Office Mobile), and device specific technologies (like the connection manager for example) - the result is a uniform set of operating system technologies, applications, shell and APIs that are consistent across all Windows Mobile devices - this means that an application written for one Windows Mobile smartphone (or Pocket PC) should run across all Windows Mobile devices (...). Windows Mobile OEMs don't have the ability to customize the underlying operating system/technologies because that would modify the exposed APIs on the platform... - this also means that it's not easy to put Windows Mobile devices into "kiosk mode".

            Some devices may state things like the following, but they're not strong enough, IMHO.

            This kids' netbook computer operates on Windows CE but will not install or run the same Windows programs that can be used on a Windows desktop PC, laptop PC or regular netbook.

            That should have gone on to say that it probably ONLY runs Windows CE 6.0 applications specifically built to run on this particular machine.  There is no such thing as a "standard" Windows CE 6.0 operating system.

            Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

            PS.  This final paragraph is most intriguing.  Consider it carefully and maybe I will decide to ask for one of these for Christmas...But ONLY if I can get a copy of their CE 6.0 SDK!

            So, what else... There is a major difference in the underlying operating system architecture for Windows Mobile 5.0 and Windows Embedded CE 6.0 - Windows Mobile 5.0 is based on the CE 5.0 kernel/architecture - the memory architecture for CE 1.0 through CE 5.0 limits the operating system to running a maximum of 32 processes and each process runs in a 32MB virtual address space - the CE 6.0 release now allows for up to 32,768 processes running at one time, and each process gets a 2GB Virtual Address space to run in. Note tha 32,768 processes is a theoretical limit, the kernel has a 64k handle store, each process starts with at least two handles, so 64k handles divided by two handles equals 32k (32,768) processes - of course a typical application would use more than two handles so the actual number of supported processes is less then 32k, but certainly could be in the hundreds/thousands (can you think of an embedded solution that needs hundreds of processes running?).


          • Eric Weder
            I have a Windows Phone 7 mobile. I really don’t like the new system, it requires you to sync using Windows Live – which exposes all your contacts, emails
            Message 5 of 5 , Feb 1, 2012
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              I have a Windows Phone 7 mobile. I really don’t like the new system, it requires you to sync using Windows Live – which exposes all your contacts, emails and photos to the Internet. I’m not sold on this “cloud computing” concept. Unless this changes, my next phone will not be Windows based.

               

              In other words, I’m fine with not porting APRSISCE to WinPhone7.

               

              Eric

              VE6EAW

               

              From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
              Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 11:59
              To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [aprsisce] Windows Phone 7 (was: CE 6.0 vs Windows Mobile)

               



              Windows Phone 7 is completely different than Windows Mobile as well.  Windows Phone 7, as I understand it, requires all programs to be written as "managed code" and "signed" in order to execute.  APRSISCE/32 is written in 100% native "C" code against the original Win32 API (Application Programming Interface).  I have no plans to port this to managed or signed anything.  IMHO, this is uSoft's attempt to reign in the platform and get it back under their closer control similar to the iPlatform approach..

              I'll be going to Android before I go to Windows Phone 7 or iAnything, but not until I can no longer purchase a new or used replacement for my Windows Mobile phone.

              Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

              PS.  http://tinyurl.com/79n9vr2 asks "How do you port the code of an application on Windows Mobile 6.5 to Windows Phone 7?" and answers "In short, you don't. Even if there is some crazy tool out there that claims to do this, don't."

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