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why would a digi use such a path as wide 4-1 ?????

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  • Charles Blackburn
    The subject says it all..... xxxxxxxxx APRS via AA4QI-1,WC4PEM-10,WC4PEM-12*,WIDE4-1,qAR,WF4HEM-13 I m blocking the source call for the moment till I can find
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 30, 2011
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      The subject says it all.....

      xxxxxxxxx>APRS via AA4QI-1,WC4PEM-10,WC4PEM-12*,WIDE4-1,qAR,WF4HEM-13

      I'm blocking the source call for the moment till I can find out who owns it,
      but the "source" is up in Georgia. What makes it worse... THEY RUN THEIR OWN
      IGATE 4 MILES AWAY!!!

      Mobile
      xxxxxx-9 - 0.8 miles 63° 2011-10-28 14:09:22

      IGATE
      xxxxxx-1 - 4.5 miles 111° 2011-10-31 01:47:40

      charlie
    • James Ewen
      ... W1KFR-1 APRS,AA4QI-1*,WIDE4-3,qAS,K4GDX:!3045.78NN08136.66W#PHG5490 CCARS WideN-N Digi Kingsland,GA The path is not WIDE4-1... it s WIDE4-4. You re seeing
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 30, 2011
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        On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Charles Blackburn <ai4ri@...> wrote:

        > why would a digi use such a path as wide 4-1 ?????

        W1KFR-1>APRS,AA4QI-1*,WIDE4-3,qAS,K4GDX:!3045.78NN08136.66W#PHG5490
        CCARS WideN-N Digi Kingsland,GA

        The path is not WIDE4-1... it's WIDE4-4. You're seeing it 3 hops down the line.

        You can also see that there are misconfigured digipeaters that are not
        inserting callsigns as well.

        > xxxxxxxxx>APRS via AA4QI-1,WC4PEM-10,WC4PEM-12*,WIDE4-1,qAR,WF4HEM-13
        >
        > I'm blocking the source call for the moment till I can find out who owns it,
        > but the "source" is up in Georgia.

        The holder of the callsign is as follows:

        WILLIAM A CARREIRA, JR
        101 ROYAL ACRES CIRCLE
        KINGSLAND, GA 31548-5288
        USA
        (912) 729-5287
        w1kfr@...

        > What makes it worse... THEY RUN THEIR OWN
        > IGATE 4 MILES AWAY!!!

        W1KFR is not an i-gate. There's no evidence to be found in the APRS-IS
        to show that it has ever gated any packets, and it hasn't been heard
        for over 170 days. Maybe at one time in the past it was on as an
        i-gate, but no longer.

        W1KFR-1>APRS,AA4QI-1*,WIDE4-3,qAS,K4GDX:!3045.78NN08136.66W#PHG5490
        CCARS WideN-N Digi Kingsland,GA

        Of course, what's even better is that the digipeater is sending
        packets out 4 hops. That's equivalent to a mobile running a 5 hop
        path, since the mobile in the area has to hop through that digipeater
        first before it starts working it's way through the network.

        W1KFR-9>S0TW5T,W4NAS*,WIDE4-2,qAR,W4LTL-1:'mDnlU6j/]"4-}

        If you look around you can find all sorts of problems with the
        network. I used to try and educate, but there's no where near enough
        time for me to even attempt to find and message all the people that
        don't have a clue what proper APRS network configuration is all about.
        I try to keep my local network operating properly, and even that is
        starting to get away on me.

        People like to buy equipment and then try to put it on air as part of
        the network without a clue. You'll get posts like "Yesterday I
        couldn't even speel ARPS, and now I wants to run a digirepeater...
        whut do I do?"

        If it's there and annoying you every day, you can either pack up your
        gear and stop playing APRS, learn to ignore it, or try to get in touch
        with the offending station and do some education.

        The third option benefits everyone the most.

        --
        James
        VE6SRV

        P.S. If people are willing to put their stations on the air spewing
        packets, there shouldn't be any reason why others would have to
        obscure the identity of the station. I've got no issues with it
        obviously. 8)

        All the information posted is freely available on the internet, with
        most of it provided by the operator of the station.
      • Charles Blackburn
        ... line. ... Of course you re right, I forgot about that, as far as the mis-configured digi s welcome to central Florida) ... longer. Good point, never
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 30, 2011
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          > On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Charles Blackburn <ai4ri@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > > why would a digi use such a path as wide 4-1 ?????
          > The path is not WIDE4-1... it's WIDE4-4. You're seeing it 3 hops down the
          line.
          > You can also see that there are misconfigured digipeaters that are not
          > inserting callsigns as well.

          Of course you're right, I forgot about that, as far as the mis-configured
          digi's welcome to central Florida)

          > > What makes it worse... THEY RUN THEIR OWN IGATE 4 MILES AWAY!!!
          > W1KFR is not an i-gate. There's no evidence to be found in the APRS-IS to
          > show that it has ever gated any packets, and it hasn't been heard for over
          > 170 days. Maybe at one time in the past it was on as an i-gate, but no
          longer.

          Good point, never noticed that one :P

          > People like to buy equipment and then try to put it on air as part of the
          > network without a clue. You'll get posts like "Yesterday I couldn't even
          speel
          > ARPS, and now I wants to run a digirepeater... whut do I do?"

          And I'm starting to fight that down here now that a couple of our "dstar"
          users down here have all of a sudden found aprs and are wanting to have
          aprs I'm like...." come on, we've already got 2 here in the local area soon
          to be merged into one high spot, we don't need any more". yet of course with
          the antenna being up at 200 feet, the problem we're going to get is the
          "crap" that's spewing out of Orlando from the multiple high digi's there. So
          we're trying to work out a way to only cover the local area and make sure
          that mobiles get out. At the minute, we're only going to be spewing packets
          out as wide1-1, but accepting 1-1/2-1, but we're thinking the iGATE will be
          running on uhf to avoid adding to the congestion (we won't have internet at
          the site ---- yet).

          >
          > If it's there and annoying you every day, you can either pack up your gear
          > and stop playing APRS, learn to ignore it, or try to get in touch with the
          > offending station and do some education.
          > The third option benefits everyone the most.
          Agreed and that's why I've taken that third option and fired off an email to
          them, I had already mentioned about talking to the crowd in Melbourne, but
          was quickly warded off to the corner and told to shush...

          >
          > P.S. If people are willing to put their stations on the air spewing
          packets,
          > there shouldn't be any reason why others would have to obscure the
          > identity of the station. I've got no issues with it obviously. 8)

          I was trying to be kind and let someone else "take the blame" for that one
          :) as far as the first bit of my email goes, I stand corrected on that and
          thank you for the clarification of the path, like I say I'd forgotten about
          the decrement bit and was kinda doing 2 things at once.

          charlie
        • kb8uih@charter.net
          OH, The Humanity! 73, Chris KB8UIH I reject your reality and substitute my own.
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 31, 2011
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            OH, The Humanity!

            73,
            Chris
            KB8UIH

            "I reject your reality and substitute my own."


            On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 9:53 PM, Charles Blackburn wrote:

            > The subject says it all.....
            >
            > xxxxxxxxx>APRS via AA4QI-1,WC4PEM-10,WC4PEM-12*,WIDE4-1,qAR,WF4HEM-13
            >
            > I'm blocking the source call for the moment till I can find out who
            > owns it,
            > but the "source" is up in Georgia. What makes it worse... THEY RUN
            > THEIR OWN
            > IGATE 4 MILES AWAY!!!
            >
            > Mobile
            > xxxxxx-9 - 0.8 miles 63° 2011-10-28 14:09:22
            > IGATE
            > xxxxxx-1 - 4.5 miles 111° 2011-10-31 01:47:40
            >
            > charlie
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • Charles Blackburn
            well I just received an email from bill about it, and he was apologetic and wanted to fix it. I told him to try starting off with wide1-1,wide2-1 on his
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 31, 2011
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              well I just received an email from bill about it, and he was "apologetic"
              and wanted to fix it.

              I told him to try starting off with wide1-1,wide2-1 on his mobile, and to
              start off wide a wide1-1 on his digi. he should be able to hit the jax area
              digi/igates with that path i beleive. I also suggested that he join the aprs
              mailing list too.

              thnx for your help guys, i realise it was a bit OT for this list, but i
              appreciate not being told off by lynn.

              now if i can only get the orlando spam to quiet down a little bit so not to
              overload the planned 200 foot high digi-gate here in daytona LOL

              charlie
            • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
              Actually, isn t the recommendation for fixed stations like his digi a single WIDE2-1, not WIDE1-1? Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 31, 2011
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                Actually, isn't the recommendation for fixed stations like his digi a
                single WIDE2-1, not WIDE1-1?

                Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                PS. All in the interests of improving APRS operations.

                On 10/31/2011 4:46 PM, Charles Blackburn wrote:
                > well I just received an email from bill about it, and he was "apologetic"
                > and wanted to fix it.
                >
                > I told him to try starting off with wide1-1,wide2-1 on his mobile, and to
                > start off wide a wide1-1 on his digi. he should be able to hit the jax area
                > digi/igates with that path i beleive. I also suggested that he join the aprs
                > mailing list too.
                >
                > thnx for your help guys, i realise it was a bit OT for this list, but i
                > appreciate not being told off by lynn.
                >
                > now if i can only get the orlando spam to quiet down a little bit so not to
                > overload the planned 200 foot high digi-gate here in daytona LOL
                >
                > charlie
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • James Ewen
                ... Digipeaters should be located such that they do not need help from a home fill-in digipeater to get into the network. As such, digipeaters should never use
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 31, 2011
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                  On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Charles Blackburn <ai4ri@...> wrote:

                  > I told him to try starting off with wide1-1,wide2-1 on his mobile, and to
                  > start off wide a wide1-1 on his digi.

                  Digipeaters should be located such that they do not need help from a
                  home fill-in digipeater to get into the network. As such, digipeaters
                  should never use WIDE1-1 in their outgoing path.

                  WIDE2-1 would be the preferred path out of the digipeater. He
                  generally is heard within one hop and gated to the APRS-IS, which
                  should keep him happy that he's on the maps on aprs.fi.

                  We can't tell what hardware he is using with the current packets being
                  sent, but there are many ways to optimize the KPC-3 gear to make it
                  even more network friendly.

                  --
                  James
                  VE6SRV
                • Charles Blackburn
                  I wasn’t sure about the fixed digi. Gotta read up more on paths for high digi s because of the plans we have down here. Just sent him another email with what
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 31, 2011
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                    I wasn’t sure about the fixed digi. Gotta read up more on paths for high digi's because of the plans we have down here.

                    Just sent him another email with what you and James said, about wide2-1 for his digi. I figured that (from memory) fill in digi's are just wide1-1 ?

                    charlie
                  • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                    Fill-In digis ACT on WIDE1-1, but the recommendation for all fixed stations is to TRANSMIT WIDE2-1 unless they need more based on location. Mobiles are
                    Message 9 of 10 , Oct 31, 2011
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                      Fill-In digis ACT on WIDE1-1, but the recommendation for all fixed
                      stations is to TRANSMIT WIDE2-1 unless they need more based on
                      location. Mobiles are recommended to use WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 unless they
                      need the extra coverage of WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2 based on where they are
                      traveling.

                      Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                      On 10/31/2011 6:11 PM, Charles Blackburn wrote:
                      > I wasn’t sure about the fixed digi. Gotta read up more on paths for high digi's because of the plans we have down here.
                      >
                      > Just sent him another email with what you and James said, about wide2-1 for his digi. I figured that (from memory) fill in digi's are just wide1-1 ?
                      >
                      > charlie
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • James Ewen
                      On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote: Make that: LOW POWERED STATIONS (ie HTs) not Mobiles... ... A modest mobile
                      Message 10 of 10 , Oct 31, 2011
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                        On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                        <kj4erj@...> wrote:

                        Make that:

                        LOW POWERED STATIONS (ie HTs) not Mobiles...

                        > Mobiles are recommended to use WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 unless they
                        > need the extra coverage of WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2 based on where they are
                        > traveling.

                        A modest mobile station in a vehicle should be able to get into the
                        digipeater network fairly easily from anywhere that they can hear the
                        digipeater.

                        We have very few fill-in digipeaters around here. Our main digipeaters
                        are situated on high points of land, on decent sized towers, or both.
                        The biggest problem that I have is that I need to have 100 watt
                        transmitters on the digipeaters so that the mobile stations have a
                        chance of hearing the packets from the digis.

                        I can dump signals from my mobile into digipeaters 50 to 60 miles away
                        easily, but with mobile flutter, multipath, and the rest of the issues
                        seen while mobile, it is difficult to hear packets in the vehicle. I
                        have a hard time trying to dream up a scenario where one would be able
                        to hear the digipeater, but not get back into it with a mobile station
                        (5 watts of power and a half decent antenna). I have issues getting
                        heard by the digipeaters on my HT at 1 watt using the stock antenna
                        (radiating dummy load).

                        Here are some receiver range estimates from aprs.fi for a few local digipeaters.

                        Normal receiver range estimate: 99 miles (Updated: 2011-10-31 06:40:18 MDT)
                        Normal receiver range estimate: 124 miles (Updated: 2011-10-31 07:18:28 MDT)
                        Normal receiver range estimate: 124 miles (Updated: 2011-08-31 16:01:39 MDT)
                        Normal receiver range estimate: 124 miles (Updated: 2011-08-31 15:28:24 MDT)

                        Lots of RX range, but it's hard to get useable signals back to those
                        mobiles. Still lots of places where we can get out of range of the
                        main digipeaters, but a fill-in digipeater isn't going to help with
                        two-way communication back into those holes, only out of the hole.

                        Off my soapbox for a while...
                        --
                        James
                        VE6SRV
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