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Re: ROMAN-CATHOLICS

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  • Sean O'Callaghan
    Paul, Sorry, mate, but I haven t taken in any of this ( well, the first line about the Armada, and then I knew that we were heading into paranoia land so I
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 1, 1998
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      Paul, Sorry, mate, but I haven't taken in any of this ( well, the first
      line about the Armada, and then I knew that we were heading into paranoia
      land so I stopped listening. ) You see, when arguing from these "
      conspiracy " premises, the goalposts are always changing, because your
      reality will be constantly reinterpreted according to your latest
      conspiracy theory; facts go flying out the window, and a remark by Cathal
      Daly about his hopes for peace will be interpreted as the latest " twist "
      in an SDLP/EU/Maastricht/RC/ Vatican/Jesuit/Republican plot to take over
      Britain. I mean, please???? Your world-view will shape your reality to
      fit in with your paranoia, so the parameters will change from conspiracy to
      conspiracy.

      Maybe we should conduct our debate off-list. I expect that this is driving
      everyone insane. BTW, are you an Orangeman ?

      Sean
      ----------
      > From: Paul Mansbacher <pmans@...>
      > To: apologetics@onelist.com
      > Subject: [apologetics] Re: ROMAN-CATHOLICS
      > Date: 01 November 1998 02:55
      >
      > From: "Paul Mansbacher" <pmans@...>
      >
      > > From: "Sean O'Callaghan" <seanoc@...>
      > >
      > > Help!! You actually believe all this conspiracy theory, don't you Paul
      ? I
      > > bet you read " The Two Babylons " as well, and believed it.
      > > Facts I can argue against, mate, but this kind of thinking is just too
      > > fanciful for me, we are really getting into the realms of fantasy now,
      what
      > > with this alliance betwen Cathal daly, Hume, Maastricht, the EU and the
      > > Vatican. You've read too much Jack Chick, I'm afraid.
      >
      > PAUL
      > Actually I have read very little by Jack Chick. I fear that it is you
      that has
      > been deceived. Here are some facts:
      >
      > The Armada was assembled to attack England and destroy Protestantism
      > under authority of the pope and Philip of Spain. In fact, the pope sent
      a
      > despatch to Philip on February 24 1586 offering to finance the Spanish
      > Armada to the extent of 2,000,000 crowns. Taken from, "Jesuit Plots
      > from Elizabethan to Modern Times", by Albert Close. This work contains
      > amongst other things a fascinating account of the battle with Rome over
      > records contained in the British Public Records Office, which are
      > accurate copies of Romanist documents, but which Rome used to claim
      > were forgeries.
      >
      > The Pope granted plenary indulgences to anyone who would assassinate
      > Queen Elizabeth I.
      >
      > "The order of the Society of Jesus was founded by Ignatius Loyola to
      > secretly accomplish two major goals for the Roman Catholic institution.
      > The first was to obtain universal political power; the second to
      establish
      > the universal church. The Reformation had seriously damaged the
      > Roman system. The way forward, apart from the Inquisition, was by
      > infiltration and penetration into every section of life, with the aim
      > of enforcing the canons and doctrines and temporal power of the
      > Pope. To that end Jesuits went to work, secretly infiltrating all
      > Protestant groups, including families, places of work, hospitals,
      > schools, colleges, etc." from the preface to The Secret History
      > of the Jesuits by Edmund Paris.
      >
      > "There was no tongue they could not speak, and no creed they
      > could not profess, and thus there was no people among whom
      > they might not sojourn and no church whose membership they
      > might not enter and whose functions they might not discharge.
      > they could execrate the Pope with the Lutheran, and swear the
      > Solemn League with the Covenanter." The History of
      > Protestantism, by J A Wylie.
      >
      > "Ye are not to preach all after one method, but observe the place
      > wherein you come. If Lutheranism be prevalent, then preach
      > Calvinism; if Calvinism, then Lutheranism; if in England then
      > either of them, or John Huss's opinions, Anabaptism, or
      > any that are contrary to the Holy See or of St Peter, by
      > which your function will not be suspected, and yet you may
      > still act on the interest of Mother-Church; there being as
      > the Council are agreed, no better way to demolish that Church
      > (the Church of England) of heresy, but by mixture of doctrines,
      > and by adding to ceremonies more than at present permitted."
      > Secret Instructions sent from the Council of Trent to Jesuits
      > in Paris and found in the shoe of Thomas Heath, a "Puritan"
      > preacher, after he had aroused suspicions and was arrested
      > in 1551.
      >
      > "Nor does the agent of Rome, and above all the Jesuit, expound
      > at once the whole system of his religion, such as it is; but, with
      > a diabolical dexterity he first insinuates himself into the
      > confidence of the man he has marked as a proselyte, captivates
      > his benevolence by all sorts of arts, and then, step by step,
      > he leads him as a convert into the fold of the modern Babylon."
      > History of the Jesuits, A Nicolini, 1897.
      >
      > "SO MANY PLOTS have been made against my life, that it is a
      > miracle that they have all failed, when we consider that the
      > great majority of them were in the hands of the skillful ROMAN
      > CATHOLIC MURDERERS, evidently trained by Jesuits .... the Jesuits
      > are so expert in those deeds of blood, that HENRY IV said that
      > it is impossible to escape them, and HE BECAME THEIR VICTIM,
      > though he did all that he could to protect himself. My escape
      > from their hands, since the letter of the pope to Jeff Davis has
      > sharpened a million of daggers to pierce my breast, would be
      > more than a miracle. But just as the Lord heard no murmur
      > from the lips of Moses when He told him that he had to die,
      > before crossing the Jordan, for the sins of his people; so I
      > hope and pray that He will hear no murmur from me when I
      > fall for my nation's sake." ABRAHAM LINCOLN speaking to
      > Charles Chiniquy shortly before his assassination in 1865.
      >
      > "There was positive evidence that the Jesuit fathers engaged in
      > preparing young men for the priesthood away out in the village
      > of St Joseph, in far off Minnesota, were in correspondence with
      > their brethren in Washington City, and had been informed that
      > the plan to assassinate the President had been matured, the
      > agents for its accomplishment had been found, the time for
      > its execution had been set, and so sure were they of its
      > accomplishment, that they could announce it as already
      > done, three or four hours before it had been consummated."
      > Rome's Responsibility for the Assassination of Abraham
      > Lincoln, by Brigadier General Thomas Harris, a member
      > of the Military Commission that tried and condemned the
      > conspirators.
      >
      > "Do not do what I have done. Remain where you are and seek to
      > Romanise the Church of England in order that the time will come
      > when the two churches can be united." Cardinal Newman after
      > leaving the Church of England for Romanism.
      >
      > Cardinal Manning speaking to the Jesuits in 1870:
      > "Great is the prize for which you strive. Surely a soldier's eye and a
      > soldier's heart would choose by intuition this field of England. None
      > ampler or nobler could be found. It is an head of Protestantism, the
      > centre of its movements and the strongholds of its power. Weakened
      > in England it is paralysed elsewhere. Conquered in England, it is
      > conquered throughout all the world. Once overthrown here, all else
      > is but a war of detail. All the roads of the world meet in one point,
      > and this point reached, all the world is open to the Church's will."
      > Life of Cardinal Manning by Edward Sheridan Purcell.
      >
      > "Individual servitude, however abject, will not satisfy the Latin church.
      > The state must also be a slave." The Anglo-Catholic Prime Minister
      > W E Gladstone in 1874.
      >
      > "Father Rector, let not the damp of astonishment seaize upon your
      > ardent and zealous soul, in apprehending the sodaine and unexpected
      > calling of a Parliament. We have now many strings to our bow. We
      > have planted that soveraigne drugge Arminianisme, which we hope
      > will purge the Protestants from their heresie; and it flourisheth and
      > bears fruit in die season. For the better prevention of the Puritanes,
      > the Arminians have already locked up the Duke's (of Buckingham)
      > eares; and we have those of our owne religion, which stand continually
      > at the duke's chamber, to see who goes in and out: we cannot be
      > too circumspect and carefull in this regard. I am, at this time,
      > transported with joy, to see how happily all instruments and means,
      > as well great as lesser, co-operate unto our purposes. But, to
      > return to the maine fabric - Our foundation is Arminianisme. The
      > Arminians and projectors, as it appeares in the premises, affect
      > mutation. This we second and enforce by probable arguments."
      > (Hidden Works of Darkness, p89,90. Edition 1645).
      > The above is an extract from a letter found among Archbishop
      > Laud's papers and endorsed in his own hand, "March 1628. A
      > Jesuit's Letter, sent to the Rector of Bruxels, about the ensuing
      > Parliament" and reported by Augustus Toplady (author of the
      > hymn 'Rock of Ages') in his work, Arminianism - A Jesuit Drug.
      >
      > "Unity without truth is useless. When Rome has repealed the decrees
      > of Trent and her additions to the creed, and when she has formally
      > renounced image worship, Mary worship, and transubstantiation,
      > then and not until then, will it be time to talk of reunion with her.
      > Till then I call on all Christians to resist to the death this idea of
      > union with Rome." Anglican Bishop J C Ryle.
      >
      > "There can be no change in any dogma or basic teaching of the
      > Catholic Church, for such a change would be a denial that the
      > Church is the true Church founded by Christ." Catholic Register 1961.
      >
      > "It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Anti-Christ,
      > and as to what Anti-Christ is no sane man ought to raise a question.
      > If it be not the Popery in the church of Rome there is nothing in the
      > world that can be called by that name .... because it wounds Christ,
      > because it robs Christ of His glory, because it puts sacramental
      > efficacy in the place of his atonement, and lifts a piece of bread
      > in the place of the Saviour, and a few drops of water in the place
      > of the Holy Ghost, and puts a fallible man like ourselves up as the
      > Vicar of Christ on earth; if we pray against it, because it is against
      > Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors; we shall
      > love their souls though we loathe and detest their dogmas, and so
      > the breath of our prayers will be sweetened, because we turn our
      > faces towards Christ when we pray." Charles Haddon Spurgeon
      >
      > "We will be joined to a Europe in which the Catholic religion will be
      > the dominant faith, and in which the application of the Catholic
      > Social Doctrine will be a major factor in everyday political
      > and economic life." Baroness Shirley Williams at a Catholic
      > Guild meeting in 1975.
      >
      > That will do after a quick browse through my bookshelves. It is now
      > almost three o'clock in the morning.
      >
      > >
      > > My own degree is in Celtic History, particularly Ecclesiastical
      History,
      > > and I'm afraid that your analysis of Celtic Christianity is far from
      > > accurate. What we know today as Celtic Christianity is largely a
      modern-day
      > > invention, a romanticisation of the facts of history.
      > > Also, it is absolutely incorrect to say that RCism only took hold in
      > > Ireland after 11thC. The so-called " Celtic " church was heavily
      > > Romanised; in actual fact , it was a Pope of Rome who sent Patrick to
      > > Ireland to counteract the Pelagian heresy, which had taken hold even by
      the
      > > 4thC. The church was heavily influenced by Rome from its inception and
      the
      > > differences which are often emphasised between the Cetic and Roman
      systems
      > > are very much exaggerated. Irish monks , even in the 5th, 6th and 7th
      > > centuries were right up to date with all of the latest teaching from
      Rome
      > > and they were as Roman as could be in their thinking.
      > >
      > > Anyway, now that you have got into the realms of Christian " X-files ",
      > > what with all of this business about the RC church trying to take over
      > > Britain etc, I think that its time to call it a day for this debate.
      Facts
      > > I can cope with, but this kind of fantasy and paranoia scares me too
      much.
      > >
      > > Cheers,
      > >
      > > Sean
      > >
      > > ----------
      > > > From: Paul Mansbacher <pmans@...>
      > > > To: apologetics@onelist.com
      > > > Subject: [apologetics] Re: ROMAN-CATHOLICS
      > > > Date: 31 October 1998 23:49
      > > >
      > > > From: "Paul Mansbacher" <pmans@...>
      > > >
      > > > > From: "Sean O'Callaghan" <seanoc@...>
      > > > >
      > > > > Lemuel,
      > > > >
      > > > > Thanks for your mail. A very quick reply for now ( as I have just
      > > driven
      > > > > 350 miles ), and then I'll post a more detailed reply in a day or
      two.
      > > The
      > > > > Evangelical Protestants of Northern Ireland ( NI ), and the
      so-called "
      > > > > Loyalist " population, that is the section of the community which
      > > > > identifies itself with Protestantism, find themselves in a position
      of
      > > > > majority in the Province. They are almost exclusively " Unionist "
      in
      > > > > their viewpoint and politics and they wish to maintain at all costs
      > > their
      > > > > links with the United Kingdom and their allegiance to the British
      > > Crown.
      > > > >
      > > > > The Catholic Population is large " Nationalist " in its politics,
      and
      > > > > overwhelmingly favours a united Ireland, that is union with the
      > > Republic
      > > > > which lies to the South. The IRA claims to represent this section
      of
      > > the
      > > > > community, working largely through its political wing Sinn Fein.
      > > >
      > > > PAUL
      > > > The above statement can only be said to be anyway near the truth
      within
      > > > the past two years. The IRA has been largely working through a
      policy of
      > > > violence and terrorism!
      > > >
      > > > However, there has been one very effective campaign which is "non-
      > > > violent" and is supported by Sinn Fein. That is the policy of
      boycott.
      > > > Romanists have a deliberate policy of moving into Protestant areas
      > > > as they are able and then boycotting the Protestants - thus forcing
      them
      > > > out of work and business - and thus the area. More Romanists then
      > > > move in. They have especially targetted areas around the Orange
      Order
      > > > marching routes. They form residents associations fronted by
      > > > Sinn Fein members who protest that the marches are taking place
      > > > through Romanist areas and that this is offensive and unacceptable.
      > > > They are waging a propaganda war here, and seem to be winning
      > > > it.
      > > >
      > > > Now, Britain has been a particular target of Rome since the
      Reformation
      > > > and they have worked hard to regain control. It would appear that
      > > > Rome has very close to winning this battle.
      > > >
      > > > I well remember that Cardinal Cahel Daly stated in one spring that
      > > > that year would signal the commencement of peace in NI. How
      > > > did he know? The answer was given by the SLDP politician,
      > > > John Hume, in a BBC Newsnight interview in December of that
      > > > year - It was the signing of the Maastricht treaty in November.
      > > > As he put it, NI was simply now a family squabble. Maastricht
      > > > was the surrender of British sovereignty to Rome. The
      > > > war in NI was no longer necessary. Europe was now one big
      > > > Romanist family again. In fact the Vatican actually issued a
      statement
      > > > saying that the European Union was the largest Roman Catholic
      > > > state that had ever existed!
      > > >
      > > > BTW, Ireland used to have a form of Christianity known as Celtic
      > > > Christianity which it exported to northern Britain. It only became
      > > > Roman Catholic when King Henry II of England conquered Ireland
      > > > (1172) having obtained a bull from Pope Adrian IV. It might be of
      > > > further interest that Celtic Chrisitianity was dominant in Scotland
      > > > until Queen Margaret (The Romanist's St Margaret) brought
      > > > Scotland into line with Rome in the first few decades of the
      > > > second millemium (around 1030). For almost 1,000 years
      > > > (until Margaret) the Christian sabbath in Scotland coincided
      > > > with the Jewish one!
      > > >
      > > > ......... At the
      > > > > present time a ceasefire is in place while political attempts are
      being
      > > > > made to put together a " power-sharing " executive to govern NI,
      that
      > > is a
      > > > > form of government representative of both communities. Whatever
      > > happens in
      > > > > this area, the religious divide is very, very deep and will take
      > > > > generations to heal. I'll post more soon,
      > > > >
      > > > > Sean
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
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    • William Kilgore
      Amen, Sean. I totally agree.
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 1, 1998
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        Amen, Sean. I totally agree.
      • William Kilgore
        Sean, Christian X-files ... lol ... that s good - can I use that? Seriously, it is interesting that Ralph Woodrow has recently renounced much of the content
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 1, 1998
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          Sean,

          "Christian X-files" ... lol ... that's good - can I use that?

          Seriously, it is interesting that Ralph Woodrow has recently renounced
          much of the content of his book, BABYLON MYSTERY RELIGION, which was
          basically a rehash of Hislop's book. He no longer believes that such
          historical connections are plausible.

          Personally, I think that there are some general ideas found in such
          literature that are quite possible. However, it is all buried under so
          much science fiction. It is a shame that so many Protestants think this
          way -- such tend to deny the very history of the early Church.

          William Kilgore
        • William Kilgore
          What s an orangeman ? William the ignorant Kilgore
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 1, 1998
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            What's an "orangeman"?

            William "the ignorant" Kilgore
          • Paul Mansbacher
            ... PAUL That is very sad, Sean. If I am in error you should make the effort to show me where I an wrong. You missed the evidence presented by the court
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 1, 1998
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              > From: "Sean O'Callaghan" <seanoc@...>
              >
              > Paul, Sorry, mate, but I haven't taken in any of this ( well, the first
              > line about the Armada, and then I knew that we were heading into paranoia
              > land so I stopped listening. )

              PAUL
              That is very sad, Sean. If I am in error you should make the effort to show
              me where I an wrong. You missed the evidence presented by the
              court which tried the assassins of Abraham Lincoln. They were
              convinced of Rome's involvement.

              > .............You see, when arguing from these "
              > conspiracy " premises, the goalposts are always changing,


              PAUL
              Show me where the goalposts have moved on this matter. They
              have not moved for centuries - until Vatican II, infact, when all
              of sudden Rome was seen as benevolent.

              > ..................................because your
              > reality will be constantly reinterpreted according to your latest
              > conspiracy theory; facts go flying out the window,

              PAUL
              Which facts???

              > .................. and a remark by Cathal
              > Daly about his hopes for peace

              PAUL
              As someone knowledgeable about Irish affairs, do you not find it
              strange that after decades of hostilities, and while these hostilities
              are still at their hieght, that all of a sudden a Romanist states that
              this will be the year of peace. He knew why - the Maastricht
              treaty. Have you studied it? I have. It requires that Britain
              surrender her sovereignity to Europe. It requires that Britain
              surrender her financial reserves to Europe - hand them over to
              German, in fact!!! And much else besides.

              > ............... will be interpreted as the latest " twist "
              > in an SDLP/EU/Maastricht/RC/ Vatican/Jesuit/Republican plot to take over
              > Britain. I mean, please???? Your world-view will shape your reality to
              > fit in with your paranoia, so the parameters will change from conspiracy to
              > conspiracy.
              >
              > Maybe we should conduct our debate off-list. I expect that this is driving
              > everyone insane. BTW, are you an Orangeman ?
              >

              PAUL
              No I am not an Orangeman. The Orange Order is type a branch of
              Free Masonry, something to which I do not believe a Christian should
              belong.

              Why don't you get down and address the points I have raised in detail.
              You have not addressed any of them.

              > Sean
              > ----------
              > > From: Paul Mansbacher <pmans@...>
              > > To: apologetics@onelist.com
              > > Subject: [apologetics] Re: ROMAN-CATHOLICS
              > > Date: 01 November 1998 02:55
              > >
              > > From: "Paul Mansbacher" <pmans@...>
              > >
              > > > From: "Sean O'Callaghan" <seanoc@...>
              > > >
              > > > Help!! You actually believe all this conspiracy theory, don't you Paul
              > ? I
              > > > bet you read " The Two Babylons " as well, and believed it.
              > > > Facts I can argue against, mate, but this kind of thinking is just too
              > > > fanciful for me, we are really getting into the realms of fantasy now,
              > what
              > > > with this alliance betwen Cathal daly, Hume, Maastricht, the EU and the
              > > > Vatican. You've read too much Jack Chick, I'm afraid.
              > >
              > > PAUL
              > > Actually I have read very little by Jack Chick. I fear that it is you
              > that has
              > > been deceived. Here are some facts:
              > >
              > > The Armada was assembled to attack England and destroy Protestantism
              > > under authority of the pope and Philip of Spain. In fact, the pope sent
              > a
              > > despatch to Philip on February 24 1586 offering to finance the Spanish
              > > Armada to the extent of 2,000,000 crowns. Taken from, "Jesuit Plots
              > > from Elizabethan to Modern Times", by Albert Close. This work contains
              > > amongst other things a fascinating account of the battle with Rome over
              > > records contained in the British Public Records Office, which are
              > > accurate copies of Romanist documents, but which Rome used to claim
              > > were forgeries.
              > >
              > > The Pope granted plenary indulgences to anyone who would assassinate
              > > Queen Elizabeth I.
              > >
              > > "The order of the Society of Jesus was founded by Ignatius Loyola to
              > > secretly accomplish two major goals for the Roman Catholic institution.
              > > The first was to obtain universal political power; the second to
              > establish
              > > the universal church. The Reformation had seriously damaged the
              > > Roman system. The way forward, apart from the Inquisition, was by
              > > infiltration and penetration into every section of life, with the aim
              > > of enforcing the canons and doctrines and temporal power of the
              > > Pope. To that end Jesuits went to work, secretly infiltrating all
              > > Protestant groups, including families, places of work, hospitals,
              > > schools, colleges, etc." from the preface to The Secret History
              > > of the Jesuits by Edmund Paris.
              > >
              > > "There was no tongue they could not speak, and no creed they
              > > could not profess, and thus there was no people among whom
              > > they might not sojourn and no church whose membership they
              > > might not enter and whose functions they might not discharge.
              > > they could execrate the Pope with the Lutheran, and swear the
              > > Solemn League with the Covenanter." The History of
              > > Protestantism, by J A Wylie.
              > >
              > > "Ye are not to preach all after one method, but observe the place
              > > wherein you come. If Lutheranism be prevalent, then preach
              > > Calvinism; if Calvinism, then Lutheranism; if in England then
              > > either of them, or John Huss's opinions, Anabaptism, or
              > > any that are contrary to the Holy See or of St Peter, by
              > > which your function will not be suspected, and yet you may
              > > still act on the interest of Mother-Church; there being as
              > > the Council are agreed, no better way to demolish that Church
              > > (the Church of England) of heresy, but by mixture of doctrines,
              > > and by adding to ceremonies more than at present permitted."
              > > Secret Instructions sent from the Council of Trent to Jesuits
              > > in Paris and found in the shoe of Thomas Heath, a "Puritan"
              > > preacher, after he had aroused suspicions and was arrested
              > > in 1551.
              > >
              > > "Nor does the agent of Rome, and above all the Jesuit, expound
              > > at once the whole system of his religion, such as it is; but, with
              > > a diabolical dexterity he first insinuates himself into the
              > > confidence of the man he has marked as a proselyte, captivates
              > > his benevolence by all sorts of arts, and then, step by step,
              > > he leads him as a convert into the fold of the modern Babylon."
              > > History of the Jesuits, A Nicolini, 1897.
              > >
              > > "SO MANY PLOTS have been made against my life, that it is a
              > > miracle that they have all failed, when we consider that the
              > > great majority of them were in the hands of the skillful ROMAN
              > > CATHOLIC MURDERERS, evidently trained by Jesuits .... the Jesuits
              > > are so expert in those deeds of blood, that HENRY IV said that
              > > it is impossible to escape them, and HE BECAME THEIR VICTIM,
              > > though he did all that he could to protect himself. My escape
              > > from their hands, since the letter of the pope to Jeff Davis has
              > > sharpened a million of daggers to pierce my breast, would be
              > > more than a miracle. But just as the Lord heard no murmur
              > > from the lips of Moses when He told him that he had to die,
              > > before crossing the Jordan, for the sins of his people; so I
              > > hope and pray that He will hear no murmur from me when I
              > > fall for my nation's sake." ABRAHAM LINCOLN speaking to
              > > Charles Chiniquy shortly before his assassination in 1865.
              > >
              > > "There was positive evidence that the Jesuit fathers engaged in
              > > preparing young men for the priesthood away out in the village
              > > of St Joseph, in far off Minnesota, were in correspondence with
              > > their brethren in Washington City, and had been informed that
              > > the plan to assassinate the President had been matured, the
              > > agents for its accomplishment had been found, the time for
              > > its execution had been set, and so sure were they of its
              > > accomplishment, that they could announce it as already
              > > done, three or four hours before it had been consummated."
              > > Rome's Responsibility for the Assassination of Abraham
              > > Lincoln, by Brigadier General Thomas Harris, a member
              > > of the Military Commission that tried and condemned the
              > > conspirators.
              > >
              > > "Do not do what I have done. Remain where you are and seek to
              > > Romanise the Church of England in order that the time will come
              > > when the two churches can be united." Cardinal Newman after
              > > leaving the Church of England for Romanism.
              > >
              > > Cardinal Manning speaking to the Jesuits in 1870:
              > > "Great is the prize for which you strive. Surely a soldier's eye and a
              > > soldier's heart would choose by intuition this field of England. None
              > > ampler or nobler could be found. It is an head of Protestantism, the
              > > centre of its movements and the strongholds of its power. Weakened
              > > in England it is paralysed elsewhere. Conquered in England, it is
              > > conquered throughout all the world. Once overthrown here, all else
              > > is but a war of detail. All the roads of the world meet in one point,
              > > and this point reached, all the world is open to the Church's will."
              > > Life of Cardinal Manning by Edward Sheridan Purcell.
              > >
              > > "Individual servitude, however abject, will not satisfy the Latin church.
              > > The state must also be a slave." The Anglo-Catholic Prime Minister
              > > W E Gladstone in 1874.
              > >
              > > "Father Rector, let not the damp of astonishment seaize upon your
              > > ardent and zealous soul, in apprehending the sodaine and unexpected
              > > calling of a Parliament. We have now many strings to our bow. We
              > > have planted that soveraigne drugge Arminianisme, which we hope
              > > will purge the Protestants from their heresie; and it flourisheth and
              > > bears fruit in die season. For the better prevention of the Puritanes,
              > > the Arminians have already locked up the Duke's (of Buckingham)
              > > eares; and we have those of our owne religion, which stand continually
              > > at the duke's chamber, to see who goes in and out: we cannot be
              > > too circumspect and carefull in this regard. I am, at this time,
              > > transported with joy, to see how happily all instruments and means,
              > > as well great as lesser, co-operate unto our purposes. But, to
              > > return to the maine fabric - Our foundation is Arminianisme. The
              > > Arminians and projectors, as it appeares in the premises, affect
              > > mutation. This we second and enforce by probable arguments."
              > > (Hidden Works of Darkness, p89,90. Edition 1645).
              > > The above is an extract from a letter found among Archbishop
              > > Laud's papers and endorsed in his own hand, "March 1628. A
              > > Jesuit's Letter, sent to the Rector of Bruxels, about the ensuing
              > > Parliament" and reported by Augustus Toplady (author of the
              > > hymn 'Rock of Ages') in his work, Arminianism - A Jesuit Drug.
              > >
              > > "Unity without truth is useless. When Rome has repealed the decrees
              > > of Trent and her additions to the creed, and when she has formally
              > > renounced image worship, Mary worship, and transubstantiation,
              > > then and not until then, will it be time to talk of reunion with her.
              > > Till then I call on all Christians to resist to the death this idea of
              > > union with Rome." Anglican Bishop J C Ryle.
              > >
              > > "There can be no change in any dogma or basic teaching of the
              > > Catholic Church, for such a change would be a denial that the
              > > Church is the true Church founded by Christ." Catholic Register 1961.
              > >
              > > "It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Anti-Christ,
              > > and as to what Anti-Christ is no sane man ought to raise a question.
              > > If it be not the Popery in the church of Rome there is nothing in the
              > > world that can be called by that name .... because it wounds Christ,
              > > because it robs Christ of His glory, because it puts sacramental
              > > efficacy in the place of his atonement, and lifts a piece of bread
              > > in the place of the Saviour, and a few drops of water in the place
              > > of the Holy Ghost, and puts a fallible man like ourselves up as the
              > > Vicar of Christ on earth; if we pray against it, because it is against
              > > Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors; we shall
              > > love their souls though we loathe and detest their dogmas, and so
              > > the breath of our prayers will be sweetened, because we turn our
              > > faces towards Christ when we pray." Charles Haddon Spurgeon
              > >
              > > "We will be joined to a Europe in which the Catholic religion will be
              > > the dominant faith, and in which the application of the Catholic
              > > Social Doctrine will be a major factor in everyday political
              > > and economic life." Baroness Shirley Williams at a Catholic
              > > Guild meeting in 1975.
              > >
              > > That will do after a quick browse through my bookshelves. It is now
              > > almost three o'clock in the morning.
              > >
              > > >
              > > > My own degree is in Celtic History, particularly Ecclesiastical
              > History,
              > > > and I'm afraid that your analysis of Celtic Christianity is far from
              > > > accurate. What we know today as Celtic Christianity is largely a
              > modern-day
              > > > invention, a romanticisation of the facts of history.
              > > > Also, it is absolutely incorrect to say that RCism only took hold in
              > > > Ireland after 11thC. The so-called " Celtic " church was heavily
              > > > Romanised; in actual fact , it was a Pope of Rome who sent Patrick to
              > > > Ireland to counteract the Pelagian heresy, which had taken hold even by
              > the
              > > > 4thC. The church was heavily influenced by Rome from its inception and
              > the
              > > > differences which are often emphasised between the Cetic and Roman
              > systems
              > > > are very much exaggerated. Irish monks , even in the 5th, 6th and 7th
              > > > centuries were right up to date with all of the latest teaching from
              > Rome
              > > > and they were as Roman as could be in their thinking.
              > > >
              > > > Anyway, now that you have got into the realms of Christian " X-files ",
              > > > what with all of this business about the RC church trying to take over
              > > > Britain etc, I think that its time to call it a day for this debate.
              > Facts
              > > > I can cope with, but this kind of fantasy and paranoia scares me too
              > much.
              > > >
              > > > Cheers,
              > > >
              > > > Sean
              > > >
              > > > ----------
              > > > > From: Paul Mansbacher <pmans@...>
              > > > > To: apologetics@onelist.com
              > > > > Subject: [apologetics] Re: ROMAN-CATHOLICS
              > > > > Date: 31 October 1998 23:49
              > > > >
              > > > > From: "Paul Mansbacher" <pmans@...>
              > > > >
              > > > > > From: "Sean O'Callaghan" <seanoc@...>
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Lemuel,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Thanks for your mail. A very quick reply for now ( as I have just
              > > > driven
              > > > > > 350 miles ), and then I'll post a more detailed reply in a day or
              > two.
              > > > The
              > > > > > Evangelical Protestants of Northern Ireland ( NI ), and the
              > so-called "
              > > > > > Loyalist " population, that is the section of the community which
              > > > > > identifies itself with Protestantism, find themselves in a position
              > of
              > > > > > majority in the Province. They are almost exclusively " Unionist "
              > in
              > > > > > their viewpoint and politics and they wish to maintain at all costs
              > > > their
              > > > > > links with the United Kingdom and their allegiance to the British
              > > > Crown.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > The Catholic Population is large " Nationalist " in its politics,
              > and
              > > > > > overwhelmingly favours a united Ireland, that is union with the
              > > > Republic
              > > > > > which lies to the South. The IRA claims to represent this section
              > of
              > > > the
              > > > > > community, working largely through its political wing Sinn Fein.
              > > > >
              > > > > PAUL
              > > > > The above statement can only be said to be anyway near the truth
              > within
              > > > > the past two years. The IRA has been largely working through a
              > policy of
              > > > > violence and terrorism!
              > > > >
              > > > > However, there has been one very effective campaign which is "non-
              > > > > violent" and is supported by Sinn Fein. That is the policy of
              > boycott.
              > > > > Romanists have a deliberate policy of moving into Protestant areas
              > > > > as they are able and then boycotting the Protestants - thus forcing
              > them
              > > > > out of work and business - and thus the area. More Romanists then
              > > > > move in. They have especially targetted areas around the Orange
              > Order
              > > > > marching routes. They form residents associations fronted by
              > > > > Sinn Fein members who protest that the marches are taking place
              > > > > through Romanist areas and that this is offensive and unacceptable.
              > > > > They are waging a propaganda war here, and seem to be winning
              > > > > it.
              > > > >
              > > > > Now, Britain has been a particular target of Rome since the
              > Reformation
              > > > > and they have worked hard to regain control. It would appear that
              > > > > Rome has very close to winning this battle.
              > > > >
              > > > > I well remember that Cardinal Cahel Daly stated in one spring that
              > > > > that year would signal the commencement of peace in NI. How
              > > > > did he know? The answer was given by the SLDP politician,
              > > > > John Hume, in a BBC Newsnight interview in December of that
              > > > > year - It was the signing of the Maastricht treaty in November.
              > > > > As he put it, NI was simply now a family squabble. Maastricht
              > > > > was the surrender of British sovereignty to Rome. The
              > > > > war in NI was no longer necessary. Europe was now one big
              > > > > Romanist family again. In fact the Vatican actually issued a
              > statement
              > > > > saying that the European Union was the largest Roman Catholic
              > > > > state that had ever existed!
              > > > >
              > > > > BTW, Ireland used to have a form of Christianity known as Celtic
              > > > > Christianity which it exported to northern Britain. It only became
              > > > > Roman Catholic when King Henry II of England conquered Ireland
              > > > > (1172) having obtained a bull from Pope Adrian IV. It might be of
              > > > > further interest that Celtic Chrisitianity was dominant in Scotland
              > > > > until Queen Margaret (The Romanist's St Margaret) brought
              > > > > Scotland into line with Rome in the first few decades of the
              > > > > second millemium (around 1030). For almost 1,000 years
              > > > > (until Margaret) the Christian sabbath in Scotland coincided
              > > > > with the Jewish one!
              > > > >
              > > > > ......... At the
              > > > > > present time a ceasefire is in place while political attempts are
              > being
              > > > > > made to put together a " power-sharing " executive to govern NI,
              > that
              > > > is a
              > > > > > form of government representative of both communities. Whatever
              > > > happens in
              > > > > > this area, the religious divide is very, very deep and will take
              > > > > > generations to heal. I'll post more soon,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Sean
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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              > > > > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3
              > > >
              > > >
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              > > http://tidalwave.net/~blufunk195 or http://witness.base.org
              > > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3
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              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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              > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3
            • Paul Mansbacher
              ... PAUL Can you give some reasons?
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 1, 1998
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                > From: William Kilgore <thinkman@...>
                >
                > Amen, Sean. I totally agree.
                >
                >

                PAUL
                Can you give some reasons?
              • Paul Mansbacher
                ... PAUL Which points are science fiction ? Can you be specific? What very history of the early church is being denied? Can you give me any references for
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 1, 1998
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                  > From: William Kilgore <thinkman@...>
                  >
                  > Sean,
                  >
                  > "Christian X-files" ... lol ... that's good - can I use that?
                  >
                  > Seriously, it is interesting that Ralph Woodrow has recently renounced
                  > much of the content of his book, BABYLON MYSTERY RELIGION, which was
                  > basically a rehash of Hislop's book. He no longer believes that such
                  > historical connections are plausible.
                  >
                  > Personally, I think that there are some general ideas found in such
                  > literature that are quite possible. However, it is all buried under so
                  > much science fiction. It is a shame that so many Protestants think this
                  > way -- such tend to deny the very history of the early Church.
                  >

                  PAUL
                  Which points are "science fiction"? Can you be specific?
                  What "very history of the early church" is being denied?
                  Can you give me any references for the about turn by Ralph
                  Woodrow?
                • William Kilgore
                  Paul, It is a general statement. The basic point is that history in general is NOT an exact science, and its report contains a vast amount of relativity. It
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 1, 1998
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                    Paul,

                    It is a general statement. The basic point is that history in general
                    is NOT an exact science, and its report contains a vast amount of
                    relativity. It is certainly open to interpretation. As a Texan, I
                    realized this fact years ago as I contemplated the events at the Alamo.

                    There is plenty of THEOLOGICAL ammunition against Roman-Catholicism.
                    Why engage in lengthy debates over questionable historical scenarios
                    which may or may not contain some truth, but MOST CERTAINLY do not tell
                    the WHOLE truth?

                    As a Protestant steeped in Chick, Hislop, etc. I was cheated for years,
                    never knowing anything about Church history between John's death and the
                    Reformation -- most Protestants don't. I never read the Fathers. In
                    the last few years that has changed. I realize that history records
                    that what is now called "Roman-Catholicism" developed - good or bad -
                    from the roots of the early Church.

                    Don't get me wrong. I am no friend to the Catholic system. In fact, I
                    personally believe that the RCC is the principal system revealed in Rev.
                    17 and 18. I have simply adopted a more balanced viewpoint and
                    recognize that God does indeed have people within the RCC.

                    On Woodrow, I'll try and get you some web references. Ralph is on my
                    mailing list, and I've been meaning to send an e-mail requesting some
                    clarification here. However, the fact of his change of mind is a known
                    fact. BABYLON MYSTERY RELIGION is no longer offered by him, and he has
                    written at least three books reversing his positions on Christmas,
                    Easter, the time of Christ's crucifixion, and other matters. He has
                    specifically stated that he doesn't feel that the historical links
                    presented by Hislop, and also in his own book, are plausible. I'll try
                    to get more for you.

                    In Christ,

                    William Kilgore
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