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Re: [apologetics and theology] Ultimate reconciliation of the damned

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  • Don Young
    Bill, Thank you for bringing up this conversation.  The eternal destiny of all humanity is too often based largely on erroneous interpretations of the
    Message 1 of 20 , May 4, 2011
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      Bill,

      Thank you for bringing up this conversation.  The eternal destiny of all
      humanity is too often based largely on erroneous interpretations of the original
      scriptural writings, such as aion and aionios.  You have presented an excellent
      argument, and I implore all those who read this to study more to see if it is
      true. 


      There's another word that has been erroneously translated which has contributed
      to a misunderstanding of humanity's eternal destiny.  The word is "hell".

      The meaning of the word changes from person to person.  It ranges from any kind
      of uncomfortable situation ("Going to the dentist is hell") to Dante's place of
      torment where the wicked are tortured unmercifully in fire forever.

      The translators of the King James Version (I point out that version only because
      many other translations have followed it's precedent) translated four original
      words into the same English word.  Those words are the Hebrew word Sheol and the
      Greek words Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna. 


      Sheol is the place of the dead.  A good translation of its meaning is the
      English word grave.  It is where all dead people go, both the wicked and the
      righteous.  There is no connotation of fire or suffering in the word.

      When Hebrew scholars created a translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek,
      they chose the Greek word hades to substitute for the Hebrew word sheol.  As an
      example, Peter quotes the psalms in his sermon on Pentecost:

      Acts 2:27 -- Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Greek: hades], neither
      wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

      Psalms 16:10 -- For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Hebrew: sheol]; neither
      wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

      In Greek religion, Hades was the god of the underworld, the realm of the dead. 
      Hence, going to Hades was a way of expressing that one had died.  As with sheol,
      it was the place where all dead went.  And while those who were wicked were
      punished, there was also reward for those whom the gods favored.  So hades is
      not necessarily a place of suffering or fire.

      Tartarus is only written once in the scriptures.  "For if God spared not the
      angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Greek: Tartarus], and delivered
      them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (2 Peter 2:4).  It
      is where sinning angels are bound, but not forever, since there are reserved
      until judgment.  So this word does not have connotations of fire or an
      everlasting duration.

      The last word is Gehenna.  Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom, was a place outside
      the walls of Jerusalem that was used as a garbage dump.  It was continually on
      fire, and because refuse was cast into it, there were worms always present. 
      "And if thy hand offend thee, cut if off: it is better to enter into life
      maimed, than having two hands to go into hell [Greek:  Gehenna], into the fire
      that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not
      quenched" (Mark 4:42,43).  Here is the only word translated as "hell" which
      actually has a connotation of fire, and also of everlasting duration.  But let
      us remember that Jesus spoke spiritually, in parables and proverbs (i.e.
      symbolically).

      John 6:63 -- It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the
      words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

      Matthew 13:34 -- All these things spake Jesus unto the multitudes in parables;
      and without a parable spake he not unto them.

      John 16:25 -- These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time
      cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you
      plainly of the Father.

      Also remember that unquenchable fire will still eventually end when there is
      nothing left to burn.  Gehenna, the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, the place
      with "fire that never shall be quenched", is no longer burning!  And neither are
      Sodom and Gomorrah, despite being burned with "eternal fire".

      Jude 1:7 -- Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, the cities about them in like manner,
      giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set
      forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


      2 Peter 2:6 -- And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned
      them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should
      life ungodly.

      Was Jesus speaking literally about cutting off body parts?  Which Christian
      truly believes so?  For if the first part of the message was literal, would not
      the second be literal also?  But do Christians blind themselves to avoid looking
      at pornography, or cut off their hands to avoid stealing, or cut off their feet
      to avoid going places where they shouldn't be?  Of course not.  This is because
      Jesus is speaking symbolically, as the scriptures declare Him to habitually do. 


      "Hell" is an absolutely terrible translation that truly needs to be erased from
      Bibles today and replaced with the original words, or at least more accurate
      words.  The NKJV, for example, transliterates sheol, hades, and tartarus,
      retaining "hell" only for gehenna.  And while even that is misleading, at least
      one knows what the original word is whenever one reads "hell" in that
      translation.  It's a step in the right direction.

      If this is new information to anyone, I urge you to study it for yourself.  Once
      we see clearly that the original writers of the scriptures never wrote about a
      place of fiery torment ("hell") that lasted "forever" (it last for aion or an
      age), then we're free to ask what's the point of this symbolic, temporary state
      of "fire".  The answer is in plain sight.

      1 Peter 4:13 -- Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which
      is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:  But rejoice,
      inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall
      be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

      1 Corinthians 3:13,15 -- Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day
      shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try
      every man's work of what sort it is....If any man's work shall be burned, he
      shall suffer loss:  but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

      If fire saves, then when the scriptures say that "whosoever was not found
      written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15),
      it's not speaking about some terrible, hopeless place where people are literally
      being burned alive forever.  It's speaking of a condition in which those who go
      through it "suffer loss", where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, but
      ultimately the result of which is salvation!  Isn't this much better good news
      than the traditional Christian good news message that Jesus loves us and wants
      to save us, but will fail to do so for most people who will suffer unimaginable
      pain forever as a result?  No, "the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot
      save" (Isaiah 59:1). 


      Jesus is the "Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), the "Saviour of all men" (1
      Timothy 4:10), the "propitiations for our sins, and not for ours only but also
      for the whole world" (1 John 2:2), who was sent "that the world through Him
      might be saved" (John 3:17), and who "will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32).

      God has "sworn by Myself: the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
      and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take
      an oath.  He shall say, 'Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength'"
      (Isaiah 45:23,24).

      We are told that God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge
      of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3), and that He will "do all my pleasure" (Isaiah
      46:10).  He is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to
      repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). 


      Now that's some "good news". 

      -Don


      ________________________________
      From: geoff Smith <gc.smith@...>
      To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tue, April 26, 2011 10:47:45 PM
      Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Ultimate reconciliation of the damned

       
      Hello Bill,

      I've read all these arguements on another list before. You argue your case very
      well and it sounds reasonable and plausible, but however, I believe Calvinism
      misleads the young Christian, some unlearned Christian and those like me, that
      know nothing about Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic languages and therefore, unable to
      argue with certainty about the different emphases of certain word usage within
      scripture.

      You have made various points, which, I believe to be fundimental to the
      Christian understanding of Jesus Christ's teaching, but which the Calvinistic
      doctrine, albeit honestly held beliefs, is dangerous to the unwary,
      unknowledgeable follower of Christ, resulting in confusion.

      You are right to claim that God and our Lord jesus have no desire for any to
      perish Jn. 3:16; 2 Pt. 3:9 and that all should come to the knowledge and
      acceptance that all are sinners Rom. 3:10; Ps. 14:3. The gift of the grace of
      jesus Christ and God the Father is given to all who accept the gift Jn. 6:37, We
      are all sinners and are in need of the grace that Jesus extends to us and we
      must, if we wish to be saved from eternal damnation, accept his grace and
      forgiveness of our sins and become reconciled to God 2 Cor. 5:19-21.

      Whilst that grace is extended to all, if the sinner remains in ignorance and
      reject the gift of forgiveness in death or, if you prefer to say, die in sin,
      then that sinner will experience eternal hell/hades for all eternity. The
      Calvinist attempts to get round that definite denial and rejection of the sinner
      by saying that hell and the lake of fire is for a limited time span only, when
      in fact, it is for eternity Lu. 16:26;
      26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so
      that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that
      none may cross over from there to us.'

      Rev. 20:11-15;

      Judgment at the Throne of God

      11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence
      earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.


      12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and
      books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and
      the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according
      to their deeds.


      13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up
      the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according
      to their deeds.


      14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second
      death, the lake of fire.


      15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown
      into the lake of fire. (NASB)

      Yes, I agree that we all bear responsibility to proclaim the message of
      salvation to bring all men to a reconciliation with God the Father, through the
      sacrifice of Jesus Christ on Calvary's cross and the cleansing blood of Christ.
      You are right to say that Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father Jn. 14:6,
      but if they , the sinner, rejects that path to the Father, then they will indeed
      be left outside the new Jerusalem , because their name is not in the Lamb's book
      of Life Rev. 21:27;

      27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall
      ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of
      life.

      Rev. 22:10-17;

      The Final Message
      10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book,
      for the time is near.

      11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still
      be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and
      the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."


      12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every
      man according to what he has done.


      13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the
      end."


      14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to
      the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.


      15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the
      murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.


      16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches
      I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."


      17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come " And let the one who hears say, "Come "
      And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of
      life without cost.


      What can be clearer than that?

      Oh Jesus! Come soon!

      yours in Christ,

      Geoff

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: B1E1Nugent@...
      To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 8:16 PM
      Subject: [apologetics and theology] Ultimate reconciliation of the damned

      Various shades of universalism have recently surfaced as issues among
      conservative Evangelicals. Rob Bell, a megachurch pastor, has written a book
      titled Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell and the Fate of Every Person Who
      Has Ever Lived. This article is not about Rob Bell's book but is about the
      subject his book so pointedly brings up. It is the matter of the fate of
      those who reject Christ and die in their sins.

      Let me start out by saying that I reject Universalism (the idea that
      everyone is automatically saved and avoids hell) and I reject Syncretism (the
      combination of Christianity with other religions) and I reject Pluralism
      (the claim that Christ is not the only way to the Father) and I reject Open
      Theology (the claim that God is unknowing or to a degree powerless about the
      course of His creation) and I reject Pelagianism (the claim that salvation
      can be attained by good works). A proper understanding of the Bible, which
      is the inspired word of God, makes it clear that the above mentioned
      perspectives are false teachings.

      Rob Bell flirts with universalism and other evangelical leaders such as
      Carlton Pearson have gone further. This is unfortunate and reflects the
      general evangelical shift toward liberalism in recent decades. Similar to the
      way the medieval church infused Aristotelianism and Platonism into its
      doctrine, so the contemporary church embraces much liberal humanistic thinking.
      I

      don't consider my position on the ultimate fate of the damned to be a
      compromise with liberalism.

      To the point, let me humbly explain what the Bible actually teaches
      regarding the future condition of people who die in their sins and the duration
      of that condition. No biblical figure taught as much about hell as did
      Jesus. Jesus, in fact, taught more about hell than He taught about heaven.
      Perhaps one reason why Jesus taught so much about hell is because He was about
      to endure hell (the cross) for all mankind when He suffered and died for our
      sins.

      Hell is punishment. Jesus taught that hell is burning fire (Mark 9:43-48).
      Jesus also taught about the duration or time factor of the punishment of
      hell. In Matthew 25:41 & 46 He taught that the duration of hell is age
      lasting. The Greek word used in these verses is "aionios" which means "age
      lasting." Several other passages that describe the duration of torment such as
      Jude 1:13 and Revelation 14:11 use the very similar Greek word "aion" or
      its plural "aions" which mean "age" or "ages."

      Some say that "aionios" and "aion" can also mean "eternal" but I regard
      that as the result of historic and pervasive doctrinal bias. The early church
      leader, Origen, wrote about the ultimate reconciliation of the damned.
      Augustine, perhaps influenced by his Manichean background, taught endless
      torment. The Augustinian position prevailed but that in itself does not make
      endless torment the scriptural position. Endless torment was taught by the
      medieval Roman Catholic Church and the reformers also held to it. Bible
      translators almost certainly approached the Bible with a prior commitment to the

      concept of endless hell. This would explain why they expanded the semantic
      range of "aion" to mean not just "age" but also "eternity."

      Bible translations are rather inconsistent in their rendering of "aion."
      In some verses of the New Testament it is rendered as "age," in other places
      as "world" and in other places as "forever."

      The word, "aion" is where we get the English word "eon" and we all know
      that an eon or age is not endless. The New Testament uses the word "aion"
      in many contexts and phrases that clearly refer to limited time duration.
      Phrases such as "end of the age" (Mt.13:39), "the present age" (Mt. 10:30),
      and "the age to come" (Luke 18:30 NASB) show that the word, aion,
      translated as 'age', means a limited time period.

      The words "aion" and "aionios" are time words. "Aion" is an noun that
      means a period of time. "Aionios" is an adjective that is derived from "aion."
      Many words are used to describe hell such as "fire," "smoke" and "torment."
      There is no relief from pain in hell. Mark 9:48 says "their worm dieth
      not" which refers to the fact that their souls do not die during the age
      lasting hell and this verse also says that "the fire is not quenched" so they
      can't put out the fire to stop the pain. Ordinary fire will burn a person's
      body and kill him within minutes. The pain of the fire of hell is age
      lasting. That's a long time. "Fire," "torment," and "worm" are not time words.
      The words that specifically describe the time duration of hell are "aion"
      and "aionios" which mean "age" and "age lasting."

      Jeremiah 7:20 and 17:27 warned Jerusalem that the wrath of God would come
      upon it as fire that would "not be quenched." That period of unquenched
      fire lasted 70 years. The fire was the wrath poured out on Jerusalem during
      the 70 year captivity by the Babylonians. Seventy years is not eternity. The
      fire was not quenched for a time period of limited duration. The point is
      that the phrase, "the fire is not quenched" (Mk. 9:48), does not mean
      endless time.

      The Old Testament equivalent of the Greek "aion" is the Hebrew "olam" and
      it is often mistranslated as "forever" or "eternal." Olam has a broader
      meaning than the Greek "aion" but generally refers to time periods of limited
      duration. For instance, Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three
      days but in his prayer he called it "olam." The word "olam" in Jonah 2:6 is
      rendered in most English translations of the text as "forever." I guess if
      you're trapped like Jonah was, three days can seem like forever!

      Jeremiah 15:18 says "Why has my pain been perpetual [olam]." Jeremiah
      describes his pain as "olam" and it was clearly not eternal but "olam" is
      rendered as "perpetual" by the translators of the NASB. Old Testament ceremonial

      ordinances are frequently described as "olam" in the Hebrew but are
      rendered "perpetual" or "forever" in your English Bibles which would mean that
      we should still observe those commands today. Clearly the word "olam" means
      "age" or "age lasting."

      The Old Testament gives an illustration of the fact that punishment is not
      endless. Isaiah 28:28 says that wheat will not be threshed forever. "Bread
      corn is bruised; because he will not ever [netsach] be threshing it." Wheat
      is not threshed endlessly; neither are the lost. They suffer their flaming
      torment according to their sins but they don't suffer endlessly.

      First John 2:2 says of Christ "And he is the propitiation for our sins:
      and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Calvinists
      have a very strained interpretation of this verse when seeing it through
      the lens of their doctrine of limited atonement. (I'm a four point Calvinist
      by the way.) The Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement is the claim that
      Christ died for the sins of only the elect. The elect are those who are
      chosen by God for salvation. Calvinists rightly argue that if Christ died for
      all people's sins, not just for the sins of the elect, then all people
      will eventually be reconciled to God. Commitment to the doctrine of endless
      torment is likely the reason why Calvinists essentially reject the plain
      scriptural statement that says that Jesus died for the sins of every person in
      the world.

      Atonement is unlimited, which is to say that Christ died for the sins of
      all people but nevertheless, those who reject Christ go to hell. They are
      not saved from hell; they go through hell. They are ultimately reconciled to
      God through Christ at the end of their punishment in hell. That is not
      universalism. Universalism means everyone avoids hell. My position is not
      liberal. Theological liberalism has many pernicious shades of meaning but tends
      to eliminate hell or minimize the number of people who will ever enter
      hell. Let me emphasize that THE LOST GO THROUGH HELL and hell is hot!

      First Timothy 4:10 says "we trust in the living God, who is the saviour of
      all men, specially of those who believe." Those who believe in Christ
      avoid hell; those who reject Christ now, will go through hell in the afterlife
      but Christ reconciles them at the end of hell. Notice that this verse gives
      a clear distinction between two classes of people. The two classes are
      both included in the group "all men" and the two groups are believers and
      unbelievers. God is the savior of both classes of people, just at different
      times. Those who believe are reconciled now; those who disbelieve are
      reconciled at the end of hell.

      Hell will end. The Bible doesn't tell us exactly how it will end but then
      again why should it? The duration of hell concerns the lost and I'm not
      lost. Some will joke and say that hell eventually freezes over but I care not
      to speculate. I'll only say that the lost suffer their full punishment in
      hell and then come to the Father through Christ. At the end of hell, the lost
      are somehow given grace to turn to Christ. I don't know the specifics of
      how that happens.

      J. Preston Eby, a prominent Bible teacher, Has said that the term "aion of
      the Aions" or "age of the ages" that appears in Ephesians 3:21 and
      elsewhere refers to a future superlative age. Just like the Bible phrase "king
      of

      kings" refers to the greatest king, so "age of the ages" could refer to the
      greatest age, a future age of greatest reconciliation of the lost at the
      end of hell. (The phrase "of the aion of the aions" is often mistranslated
      as "forever and ever").

      The Bible teaches that the lost will be in hell for the ages and those who
      are saved through faith in Christ are delivered from ever going to hell
      and will be alive in heaven for the ages. The New testament phrases such as
      "life everlasting" and "eternal life" and "live forever" also contain the
      Greek words "aion" and "aionios."

      If our life in Christ is "age lasting" does that mean our lives in heaven
      will someday end? No, it merely acknowledges that we live for a period of
      time called "the ages" during which all things will be made subject to
      Christ in order that as I Corinthians 15:28 states: "that God may be all in
      all." God will not be "all in some" or "some in all" but God will be "all in
      all." All are eventually fully reconciled to God and all people will fully
      enjoy relationship with God at the end of the ages. Of course we will
      continue to live with God after the end of the ages!

      First Corinthians 15:25-28 says that Christ must reign until He has
      subdued all things. Verse 26 says that "The last enemy that shall be destroyed
      is

      death." When death is destroyed all people will live! That means all
      people ultimately will be spiritually and physically alive and all people will
      be in reconciled relationship with God at the end of the ages.

      You are given a choice. You can turn to Christ and live for the ages or
      you can reject Christ and die for the ages. At the end of the ages is the
      restitution of all things (Acts 3:21) when God becomes all in all. All people
      will live in reconciled relationship with God after the end of the ages.

      I regard the concept of endless torment to be unscriptural. Endless
      torment is the extreme position. It is the theological novelty. It is a vestige
      of the medieval church. Think of it - a man would suffer flaming torment for
      a million, billion, trillion, quadrillion, quintillion years and still
      have eternal, endless torment ahead of him for sins committed in a 70 year
      lifetime! Is this the duration of punishment decreed by our God who is love?

      The time periods under discussion in the New Testament are the ages, not
      endlessness. God is the God of the ages. God is also the God of Israel. It
      doesn't mean that God is not the God of places other than Israel or that God
      is not the God of time other than the ages.

      What I described in this article is not universal salvation. Ultimate
      reconciliation is not a form of universalism. THE UNSAVED GO TO HELL! The
      unbelievers are not prevented from going to hell. The unbelievers go through
      hell. Hell lasts for ages. An age is a time period of limited duration but
      usually thought of as long duration. Hell may last 10,000 years or maybe just
      a few hundred. I don't want to go there even for a minute. Thank God I'm
      saved!
      -Bill in NY

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    • Rolaant McKenzie
      Hmm ... I guess if hell is temporary, then so is heaven. Rolaant
      Message 2 of 20 , May 4, 2011
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        Hmm ... I guess if hell is temporary, then so is heaven.

        Rolaant
      • B1E1Nugent@aol.com
        I explained in the article what comes after the ages. The NT discusses a succession of time periods called ages. Read in my original post about what occurs at
        Message 3 of 20 , May 4, 2011
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          I explained in the article what comes after the ages. The NT discusses a
          succession of time periods called ages. Read in my original post about what
          occurs at the end of the ages.
          hint: heaven doesn't end.

          Bill in NY


          In a message dated 5/4/2011 11:02:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
          rolaant@... writes:

          Hmm ... I guess if hell is temporary, then so is heaven.

          Rolaant




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mark
          The proper understanding of hell should be gehenna, the Lake of Fire. Unfortunately almost all english translations, following in the footsteps of that
          Message 4 of 20 , May 4, 2011
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            The proper understanding of "hell" should be gehenna, the Lake of Fire.

            Unfortunately almost all english translations, following in the footsteps of that mother in Rome,

            have INSERTED the word hell in places it wasnt meant to be, specifically where "hades/sheol" should be present.

            Hades/sheol are NOT the same place as geheanna/Lake.

            Mat 16:18 I also tell you that you are Rock, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and the gates of She'ol will not prevail against it.

            She'ol and death are BOTH thrown into gehenna, the Lake:

            Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and She'ol gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.

            Rev 20:14 Death and She'ol were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

            --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Rolaant McKenzie" <rolaant@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hmm ... I guess if hell is temporary, then so is heaven.
            >
            > Rolaant
            >
          • Geoff Smith
            I explained in the article what comes after the ages. The NT discusses a succession of time periods called ages. Read in my original post about what occurs at
            Message 5 of 20 , May 4, 2011
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              I explained in the article what comes after the ages. The NT discusses a
              succession of time periods called ages. Read in my original post about what
              occurs at the end of the ages.
              hint: heaven doesn't end.


              Nor does hell for the wicked. For hell to free the damned, after all they have done against God's people and himself, then God is unjust. If heaven is forever, then so is hell, damnation, hades, sheol, or whatever!

              Geoff

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Mark
              Death is just the beginning. Naturally that means the Lake(gehenna) is also. New Jerusalem? 8th day.
              Message 6 of 20 , May 5, 2011
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                Death is just the beginning. Naturally that means the Lake(gehenna) is also. New Jerusalem?

                8th day.
                --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Smith" <gc.smith@...> wrote:
                >
                > I explained in the article what comes after the ages. The NT discusses a
                > succession of time periods called ages. Read in my original post about what
                > occurs at the end of the ages.
                > hint: heaven doesn't end.
                >
                >
                > Nor does hell for the wicked. For hell to free the damned, after all they have done against God's people and himself, then God is unjust. If heaven is forever, then so is hell, damnation, hades, sheol, or whatever!
                >
                > Geoff
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Don Young
                Rolaant, by your own admission, you GUESS if hell is temporary, then so is heaven (CAPS added).  Can we really afford to guess on something like this? 
                Message 7 of 20 , May 6, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Rolaant, by your own admission, you "GUESS if hell is temporary, then so is
                  heaven" (CAPS added).  Can we really afford to "guess" on something like this? 
                  But even so, guesses are often based on some sort of evidence.  Where is the
                  scriptural evidence that hell and heaven MUST have the same duration?  And if
                  there is no scriptural evidence, then the only thing we base that assumption on
                  is tradition and feelings, both of which are poor revealers of God's truth:

                  Mark 7:7,8a -- "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the
                  commandments of men.  For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the
                  tradition of men..."

                  Jeremiah 17:9 -- "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately
                  wicked; who can know it?

                  We know that the lives of the righteous will not be temporary, not because we're
                  promised "eternal life"--the Greek word translated as 'eternal' is 'aionios',
                  which Bill showed means 'age-lasting' not 'everlasting'--but because the
                  righteous are promised 'deathlessness':

                  1 Corinthians 15:51 -- Behold, I tell you a mystery:  We shall not all sleep,
                  but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the
                  last trumpet.  For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised
                  incorruptable [Greek: aphthartos = undecaying, incorruptable, hence immortal],
                  and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and
                  this mortal must put on immortality [Greek: athanasia = deathlessness, hence
                  immortality].

                  On the other hand, we see that "eternal fire" does eventually go out when there
                  is nothing left to burn.

                  Jude 1:7 -- As Sodom and Gamorrah, and the cities around them in a similar
                  manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone
                  after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance
                  of ETERNAL [Greek: aionios] fire.

                  2 Peter 2:6 -- And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes...

                  The same word, 'aionios' is used to describe the fires of "hell":

                  Matthew 25:41 -- "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from
                  Me, you cursed, into the everlasting [Greek: aionios] fire prepared for the
                  devil and for his angels.'"

                  So there is nothing forcing the duration of heaven to be the same as the
                  duration of "hell".  Again I urge anywho who is new to this to prayerfully study
                  it.  Why would God, "who SO LOVED the world" (John 3:16), and commands us to
                  "love your enemies" (Luke 6:27) not love us but torture the majority of us
                  without end?  Why would God, who "sent the son to be the saviour of the world"
                  (1 John 4:14), whose "hand is not shortened that it cannot save" (Isaiah 59:1),
                  prevent Christ from fulfilling His mission of saving the world?  Why would God,
                  who has declared that the "wages of sin is DEATH" (Roman 6:23) make the wage of
                  sin a tortured immortal condition instead of death? 

                  -Don



                  ________________________________
                  From: "B1E1Nugent@..." <B1E1Nugent@...>
                  To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 11:17:29 PM
                  Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Ultimate reconciliation of the damned

                   
                  I explained in the article what comes after the ages. The NT discusses a
                  succession of time periods called ages. Read in my original post about what
                  occurs at the end of the ages.
                  hint: heaven doesn't end.

                  Bill in NY


                  In a message dated 5/4/2011 11:02:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                  rolaant@... writes:

                  Hmm ... I guess if hell is temporary, then so is heaven.

                  Rolaant

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mark
                  Please STOP making a mockery of YAH s word: Jud 1:7 Even as Sedom and `Amorah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 6, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Please STOP making a mockery of YAH's word:

                    Jud 1:7 Even as Sedom and `Amorah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

                    what part of eternal do you not understand?

                    1Jo 5:20 We know that the Son of YAH has come, and has given us an understanding, that we know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Yahu'shua the Messiah. This is the true El'ohiym, and eternal life.

                    I hope you were reading Mark 7 and Jeremiah 17 in the mirror.

                    In addition, the spirit of DECEPTION AND HASATAN has FORGED the defintion of "eternal":

                    aiōnios
                    Pronunciation

                    ī-ō'-nē-os (Key)


                    Part of Speech
                    adjective




                    1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

                    2) without beginning

                    3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


                    This watchman wont put up with the loco ecunmemicity of buddhism and tao'ism.


                    --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, Don Young <dontheyounger@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Rolaant, by your own admission, you "GUESS if hell is temporary, then so is
                    > heaven" (CAPS added).  Can we really afford to "guess" on something like this? 
                    > But even so, guesses are often based on some sort of evidence.  Where is the
                    > scriptural evidence that hell and heaven MUST have the same duration?  And if
                    > there is no scriptural evidence, then the only thing we base that assumption on
                    > is tradition and feelings, both of which are poor revealers of God's truth:
                    >
                    > Mark 7:7,8a -- "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the
                    > commandments of men.  For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the
                    > tradition of men..."
                    >
                    > Jeremiah 17:9 -- "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately
                    > wicked; who can know it?
                    >
                    > We know that the lives of the righteous will not be temporary, not because we're
                    > promised "eternal life"--the Greek word translated as 'eternal' is 'aionios',
                    > which Bill showed means 'age-lasting' not 'everlasting'--but because the
                    > righteous are promised 'deathlessness':
                    >
                    > 1 Corinthians 15:51 -- Behold, I tell you a mystery:  We shall not all sleep,
                    > but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the
                    > last trumpet.  For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised
                    > incorruptable [Greek: aphthartos = undecaying, incorruptable, hence immortal],
                    > and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and
                    > this mortal must put on immortality [Greek: athanasia = deathlessness, hence
                    > immortality].
                    >
                    > On the other hand, we see that "eternal fire" does eventually go out when there
                    > is nothing left to burn.
                    >
                    > Jude 1:7 -- As Sodom and Gamorrah, and the cities around them in a similar
                    > manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone
                    > after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance
                    > of ETERNAL [Greek: aionios] fire.
                    >
                    > 2 Peter 2:6 -- And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes...
                    >
                    > The same word, 'aionios' is used to describe the fires of "hell":
                    >
                    > Matthew 25:41 -- "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from
                    > Me, you cursed, into the everlasting [Greek: aionios] fire prepared for the
                    > devil and for his angels.'"
                    >
                    > So there is nothing forcing the duration of heaven to be the same as the
                    > duration of "hell".  Again I urge anywho who is new to this to prayerfully study
                    > it.  Why would God, "who SO LOVED the world" (John 3:16), and commands us to
                    > "love your enemies" (Luke 6:27) not love us but torture the majority of us
                    > without end?  Why would God, who "sent the son to be the saviour of the world"
                    > (1 John 4:14), whose "hand is not shortened that it cannot save" (Isaiah 59:1),
                    > prevent Christ from fulfilling His mission of saving the world?  Why would God,
                    > who has declared that the "wages of sin is DEATH" (Roman 6:23) make the wage of
                    > sin a tortured immortal condition instead of death? 
                    >
                    > -Don
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: "B1E1Nugent@..." <B1E1Nugent@...>
                    > To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 11:17:29 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Ultimate reconciliation of the damned
                    >
                    >  
                    > I explained in the article what comes after the ages. The NT discusses a
                    > succession of time periods called ages. Read in my original post about what
                    > occurs at the end of the ages.
                    > hint: heaven doesn't end.
                    >
                    > Bill in NY
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 5/4/2011 11:02:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                    > rolaant@... writes:
                    >
                    > Hmm ... I guess if hell is temporary, then so is heaven.
                    >
                    > Rolaant
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Mark
                    Isa 33:14 ¶ The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 6, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Isa 33:14 ¶ The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

                      The Tanakh and Ivrit(hebrew) owlam reveal "for ever" the devouring fire and burnings, the foundation of emet/truth is seen throughout YAH'S word in the Tanakh and brit chadassah(NT).


                      Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look on the eretz beneath; for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the eretz shall wax old like a garment; and those who dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be forever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.


                      Isa 51:7 Listen to me, you who know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; don't you fear the reproach of men, neither be you dismayed at their insults.

                      Those with the indwelling Ruach HaKodesh(Law in their heart) shall not cease to be in the Righteous Everlasting arms of Abba, in New Yaru'shalayim(Jerusalem).

                      Dan 12:1 "At that time shall Mikha'el stand up, the great prince who stands for the children of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who shall be found written in the book.


                      Dan 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the eretz shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

                      YAH's judgment seats are not temporary, the Bema (1 cor 3) for the Righteous Kehillah bridal community, and the Great White Throne , for those bound for the Lake of Rev 20, which is EVERLASTING/OWLAM.

                      --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, Don Young <dontheyounger@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Rolaant, by your own admission, you "GUESS if hell is temporary, then so is
                      > heaven" (CAPS added).  Can we really afford to "guess" on something like this? 
                      > But even so, guesses are often based on some sort of evidence.  Where is the
                      > scriptural evidence that hell and heaven MUST have the same duration?  And if
                      > there is no scriptural evidence, then the only thing we base that assumption on
                      > is tradition and feelings, both of which are poor revealers of God's truth:
                      >
                      > Mark 7:7,8a -- "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the
                      > commandments of men.  For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the
                      > tradition of men..."
                      >
                      > Jeremiah 17:9 -- "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately
                      > wicked; who can know it?
                      >
                      > We know that the lives of the righteous will not be temporary, not because we're
                      > promised "eternal life"--the Greek word translated as 'eternal' is 'aionios',
                      > which Bill showed means 'age-lasting' not 'everlasting'--but because the
                      > righteous are promised 'deathlessness':
                      >
                      > 1 Corinthians 15:51 -- Behold, I tell you a mystery:  We shall not all sleep,
                      > but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the
                      > last trumpet.  For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised
                      > incorruptable [Greek: aphthartos = undecaying, incorruptable, hence immortal],
                      > and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and
                      > this mortal must put on immortality [Greek: athanasia = deathlessness, hence
                      > immortality].
                      >
                      > On the other hand, we see that "eternal fire" does eventually go out when there
                      > is nothing left to burn.
                      >
                      > Jude 1:7 -- As Sodom and Gamorrah, and the cities around them in a similar
                      > manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone
                      > after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance
                      > of ETERNAL [Greek: aionios] fire.
                      >
                      > 2 Peter 2:6 -- And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes...
                      >
                      > The same word, 'aionios' is used to describe the fires of "hell":
                      >
                      > Matthew 25:41 -- "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from
                      > Me, you cursed, into the everlasting [Greek: aionios] fire prepared for the
                      > devil and for his angels.'"
                      >
                      > So there is nothing forcing the duration of heaven to be the same as the
                      > duration of "hell".  Again I urge anywho who is new to this to prayerfully study
                      > it.  Why would God, "who SO LOVED the world" (John 3:16), and commands us to
                      > "love your enemies" (Luke 6:27) not love us but torture the majority of us
                      > without end?  Why would God, who "sent the son to be the saviour of the world"
                      > (1 John 4:14), whose "hand is not shortened that it cannot save" (Isaiah 59:1),
                      > prevent Christ from fulfilling His mission of saving the world?  Why would God,
                      > who has declared that the "wages of sin is DEATH" (Roman 6:23) make the wage of
                      > sin a tortured immortal condition instead of death? 
                      >
                      > -Don
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: "B1E1Nugent@..." <B1E1Nugent@...>
                      > To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 11:17:29 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Ultimate reconciliation of the damned
                      >
                      >  
                      > I explained in the article what comes after the ages. The NT discusses a
                      > succession of time periods called ages. Read in my original post about what
                      > occurs at the end of the ages.
                      > hint: heaven doesn't end.
                      >
                      > Bill in NY
                      >
                      >
                      > In a message dated 5/4/2011 11:02:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                      > rolaant@... writes:
                      >
                      > Hmm ... I guess if hell is temporary, then so is heaven.
                      >
                      > Rolaant
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Rolaant McKenzie
                      All I know, Don, based on my study of Matt 25 and other passages, whatever the duration is for heaven, the same is for hell. In the end those who teach that
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 6, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        All I know, Don, based on my study of Matt 25 and other passages, whatever
                        the duration is for heaven, the same is for hell. In the end those who teach
                        that one is eternal and the other is temporary is being inconsistent and
                        presenting what Scriptures do not really teach. It may provide some
                        emotional comfort, but so do a lot of other teachings claiming to be
                        Scriptural that actually are not.

                        Rolaant
                      • geoff Smith
                        Rev. 20:11-12; 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 7, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Rev. 20:11-12;
                          " 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
                          12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds."

                          All who have died at the time of the judgement will stand before our Lord Jesus to be judged, who has been given the power to judge by the Father.
                          Paul says: Phil. 2:10;
                          10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

                          Rev. 22:13-14;
                          " 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
                          14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire."

                          But, if their name is not in the Book of Life V. 12, they will be cast into the everlasting fire V. 15.

                          Rev. 22:15;
                          " 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

                          I have known a number of Calvinists in my life time. They have what is some times refered to as 'Tender hearted love'. There is absolutely nothing wrong with such love, but it does mean that they are liable to ignore the loving 'Tough love', which is corrective. If people will not obey the Lord, why should he have them at his side in eternity. If they don't want him during life, why should they reap the benefits of the love of Christ in eternity. They decided to turn their back on Christ in life, he will turn his back on them in eternity, for he said, Mt. 7:21-23;
                          " 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
                          22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
                          23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'"
                          and
                          Mt. 10:33;
                          " 33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."

                          How dare we deny what Jesus himself says! He is definite in his condemnation of those who deny him during their life time on earth. We do not have the authority to misrepresent Jesus teaching!

                          I agree with both Rolaant and Mark. Their comments are very much to the point. Mis interpret the word of God at your peril.

                          Jesus last message to us is:

                          Rev. 22:1016;
                          " 10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
                          11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."
                          12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
                          13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
                          14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
                          15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
                          16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star." "

                          I love our Lord Jesus and God our Father far too much to deny his word. I marvel that so many are prepared to misinterpret the scripture to include all who have denied him in life. It would be so wrong and unjust of God to include them in his eternal kingdom in the end, for, it would mean that all who acknowledge him in life need not have to receive the forgiveness of their sins by God, since they would have been given eternal life anyway. It just means that the salvation and subsequent sacrifice of Jesus Christ to have been pointless and a waist of time. Is that the case? No! Most definitely not! Jesus is steadfast in his condemnation just as he is steadfast in his loving, righteous just dealings with those that love him, stretching out his hand to those that surrender to him.

                          Yours in Christ,

                          Geoff




                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Don Young
                          To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 6:30 PM
                          Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Ultimate reconciliation of the damned



                          Rolaant, by your own admission, you "GUESS if hell is temporary, then so is
                          heaven" (CAPS added). Can we really afford to "guess" on something like this?
                          But even so, guesses are often based on some sort of evidence. Where is the
                          scriptural evidence that hell and heaven MUST have the same duration? And if
                          there is no scriptural evidence, then the only thing we base that assumption on
                          is tradition and feelings, both of which are poor revealers of God's truth:

                          Mark 7:7,8a -- "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the
                          commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the
                          tradition of men..."

                          Jeremiah 17:9 -- "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately
                          wicked; who can know it?

                          We know that the lives of the righteous will not be temporary, not because we're
                          promised "eternal life"--the Greek word translated as 'eternal' is 'aionios',
                          which Bill showed means 'age-lasting' not 'everlasting'--but because the
                          righteous are promised 'deathlessness':

                          1 Corinthians 15:51 -- Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep,
                          but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the
                          last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised
                          incorruptable [Greek: aphthartos = undecaying, incorruptable, hence immortal],
                          and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and
                          this mortal must put on immortality [Greek: athanasia = deathlessness, hence
                          immortality].

                          On the other hand, we see that "eternal fire" does eventually go out when there
                          is nothing left to burn.

                          Jude 1:7 -- As Sodom and Gamorrah, and the cities around them in a similar
                          manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone
                          after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance
                          of ETERNAL [Greek: aionios] fire.

                          2 Peter 2:6 -- And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes...

                          The same word, 'aionios' is used to describe the fires of "hell":

                          Matthew 25:41 -- "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from
                          Me, you cursed, into the everlasting [Greek: aionios] fire prepared for the
                          devil and for his angels.'"

                          So there is nothing forcing the duration of heaven to be the same as the
                          duration of "hell". Again I urge anywho who is new to this to prayerfully study
                          it. Why would God, "who SO LOVED the world" (John 3:16), and commands us to
                          "love your enemies" (Luke 6:27) not love us but torture the majority of us
                          without end? Why would God, who "sent the son to be the saviour of the world"
                          (1 John 4:14), whose "hand is not shortened that it cannot save" (Isaiah 59:1),
                          prevent Christ from fulfilling His mission of saving the world? Why would God,
                          who has declared that the "wages of sin is DEATH" (Roman 6:23) make the wage of
                          sin a tortured immortal condition instead of death?

                          -Don

                          ________________________________
                          From: "B1E1Nugent@..." <B1E1Nugent@...>
                          To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 11:17:29 PM
                          Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Ultimate reconciliation of the damned


                          I explained in the article what comes after the ages. The NT discusses a
                          succession of time periods called ages. Read in my original post about what
                          occurs at the end of the ages.
                          hint: heaven doesn't end.

                          Bill in NY

                          In a message dated 5/4/2011 11:02:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                          rolaant@... writes:

                          Hmm ... I guess if hell is temporary, then so is heaven.

                          Rolaant

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Rolaant McKenzie
                          Amen, Geoff! You are quite right. Except that I have yet to run into any Calvinists that are universalists. The two theologies run counter to each other in my
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 7, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Amen, Geoff! You are quite right. Except that I have yet to run into any Calvinists that are universalists. The two theologies run counter to each other in my view.

                            Rolaant

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: apologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:apologetics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geoff Smith
                            Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 10:17
                            To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Ultimate reconciliation of the damned

                            Rev. 20:11-12;
                            " 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
                            12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds."

                            All who have died at the time of the judgement will stand before our Lord Jesus to be judged, who has been given the power to judge by the Father.
                            Paul says: Phil. 2:10;
                            10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

                            Rev. 22:13-14;
                            " 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
                            14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire."

                            But, if their name is not in the Book of Life V. 12, they will be cast into the everlasting fire V. 15.

                            Rev. 22:15;
                            " 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

                            I have known a number of Calvinists in my life time. They have what is some times refered to as 'Tender hearted love'. There is absolutely nothing wrong with such love, but it does mean that they are liable to ignore the loving 'Tough love', which is corrective. If people will not obey the Lord, why should he have them at his side in eternity. If they don't want him during life, why should they reap the benefits of the love of Christ in eternity. They decided to turn their back on Christ in life, he will turn his back on them in eternity, for he said, Mt. 7:21-23;
                            " 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
                            22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
                            23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'"
                            and
                            Mt. 10:33;
                            " 33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."

                            How dare we deny what Jesus himself says! He is definite in his condemnation of those who deny him during their life time on earth. We do not have the authority to misrepresent Jesus teaching!

                            I agree with both Rolaant and Mark. Their comments are very much to the point. Mis interpret the word of God at your peril.

                            Jesus last message to us is:

                            Rev. 22:1016;
                            " 10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
                            11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."
                            12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
                            13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
                            14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
                            15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
                            16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star." "

                            I love our Lord Jesus and God our Father far too much to deny his word. I marvel that so many are prepared to misinterpret the scripture to include all who have denied him in life. It would be so wrong and unjust of God to include them in his eternal kingdom in the end, for, it would mean that all who acknowledge him in life need not have to receive the forgiveness of their sins by God, since they would have been given eternal life anyway. It just means that the salvation and subsequent sacrifice of Jesus Christ to have been pointless and a waist of time. Is that the case? No! Most definitely not! Jesus is steadfast in his condemnation just as he is steadfast in his loving, righteous just dealings with those that love him, stretching out his hand to those that surrender to him.

                            Yours in Christ,

                            Geoff




                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Don Young
                            To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 6:30 PM
                            Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Ultimate reconciliation of the damned



                            Rolaant, by your own admission, you "GUESS if hell is temporary, then so is
                            heaven" (CAPS added). Can we really afford to "guess" on something like this?
                            But even so, guesses are often based on some sort of evidence. Where is the
                            scriptural evidence that hell and heaven MUST have the same duration? And if
                            there is no scriptural evidence, then the only thing we base that assumption on
                            is tradition and feelings, both of which are poor revealers of God's truth:

                            Mark 7:7,8a -- "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the
                            commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the
                            tradition of men..."

                            Jeremiah 17:9 -- "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately
                            wicked; who can know it?

                            We know that the lives of the righteous will not be temporary, not because we're
                            promised "eternal life"--the Greek word translated as 'eternal' is 'aionios',
                            which Bill showed means 'age-lasting' not 'everlasting'--but because the
                            righteous are promised 'deathlessness':

                            1 Corinthians 15:51 -- Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep,
                            but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the
                            last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised
                            incorruptable [Greek: aphthartos = undecaying, incorruptable, hence immortal],
                            and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and
                            this mortal must put on immortality [Greek: athanasia = deathlessness, hence
                            immortality].

                            On the other hand, we see that "eternal fire" does eventually go out when there
                            is nothing left to burn.

                            Jude 1:7 -- As Sodom and Gamorrah, and the cities around them in a similar
                            manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone
                            after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance
                            of ETERNAL [Greek: aionios] fire.

                            2 Peter 2:6 -- And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes...

                            The same word, 'aionios' is used to describe the fires of "hell":

                            Matthew 25:41 -- "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from
                            Me, you cursed, into the everlasting [Greek: aionios] fire prepared for the
                            devil and for his angels.'"

                            So there is nothing forcing the duration of heaven to be the same as the
                            duration of "hell". Again I urge anywho who is new to this to prayerfully study
                            it. Why would God, "who SO LOVED the world" (John 3:16), and commands us to
                            "love your enemies" (Luke 6:27) not love us but torture the majority of us
                            without end? Why would God, who "sent the son to be the saviour of the world"
                            (1 John 4:14), whose "hand is not shortened that it cannot save" (Isaiah 59:1),
                            prevent Christ from fulfilling His mission of saving the world? Why would God,
                            who has declared that the "wages of sin is DEATH" (Roman 6:23) make the wage of
                            sin a tortured immortal condition instead of death?

                            -Don

                            ________________________________
                            From: "B1E1Nugent@..." <B1E1Nugent@...>
                            To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 11:17:29 PM
                            Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Ultimate reconciliation of the damned


                            I explained in the article what comes after the ages. The NT discusses a
                            succession of time periods called ages. Read in my original post about what
                            occurs at the end of the ages.
                            hint: heaven doesn't end.

                            Bill in NY

                            In a message dated 5/4/2011 11:02:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                            rolaant@... writes:

                            Hmm ... I guess if hell is temporary, then so is heaven.

                            Rolaant

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                          • geoff Smith
                            Hello Rolaant, I accept that there are gaps in my knowledge. Perhaps you or others, can recommend websites or books that I may increase my knowledge between
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 7, 2011
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                              Hello Rolaant,

                              I accept that there are gaps in my knowledge.

                              Perhaps you or others, can recommend websites or books that I may increase my knowledge between the two philosophies/belief systems.

                              Yours in Christ,

                              Geoff
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Rolaant McKenzie
                              To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 3:51 PM
                              Subject: RE: [apologetics and theology] Ultimate reconciliation of the damned



                              Amen, Geoff! You are quite right. Except that I have yet to run into any Calvinists that are universalists. The two theologies run counter to each other in my view.

                              Rolaant

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: apologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:apologetics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geoff Smith
                              Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 10:17
                              To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Ultimate reconciliation of the damned

                              Rev. 20:11-12;
                              " 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
                              12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds."

                              All who have died at the time of the judgement will stand before our Lord Jesus to be judged, who has been given the power to judge by the Father.
                              Paul says: Phil. 2:10;
                              10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

                              Rev. 22:13-14;
                              " 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
                              14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire."

                              But, if their name is not in the Book of Life V. 12, they will be cast into the everlasting fire V. 15.

                              Rev. 22:15;
                              " 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

                              I have known a number of Calvinists in my life time. They have what is some times refered to as 'Tender hearted love'. There is absolutely nothing wrong with such love, but it does mean that they are liable to ignore the loving 'Tough love', which is corrective. If people will not obey the Lord, why should he have them at his side in eternity. If they don't want him during life, why should they reap the benefits of the love of Christ in eternity. They decided to turn their back on Christ in life, he will turn his back on them in eternity, for he said, Mt. 7:21-23;
                              " 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
                              22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
                              23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'"
                              and
                              Mt. 10:33;
                              " 33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."

                              How dare we deny what Jesus himself says! He is definite in his condemnation of those who deny him during their life time on earth. We do not have the authority to misrepresent Jesus teaching!

                              I agree with both Rolaant and Mark. Their comments are very much to the point. Mis interpret the word of God at your peril.

                              Jesus last message to us is:

                              Rev. 22:1016;
                              " 10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
                              11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."
                              12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
                              13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
                              14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
                              15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
                              16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star." "

                              I love our Lord Jesus and God our Father far too much to deny his word. I marvel that so many are prepared to misinterpret the scripture to include all who have denied him in life. It would be so wrong and unjust of God to include them in his eternal kingdom in the end, for, it would mean that all who acknowledge him in life need not have to receive the forgiveness of their sins by God, since they would have been given eternal life anyway. It just means that the salvation and subsequent sacrifice of Jesus Christ to have been pointless and a waist of time. Is that the case? No! Most definitely not! Jesus is steadfast in his condemnation just as he is steadfast in his loving, righteous just dealings with those that love him, stretching out his hand to those that surrender to him.

                              Yours in Christ,

                              Geoff

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Don Young
                              To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 6:30 PM
                              Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Ultimate reconciliation of the damned

                              Rolaant, by your own admission, you "GUESS if hell is temporary, then so is
                              heaven" (CAPS added). Can we really afford to "guess" on something like this?
                              But even so, guesses are often based on some sort of evidence. Where is the
                              scriptural evidence that hell and heaven MUST have the same duration? And if
                              there is no scriptural evidence, then the only thing we base that assumption on
                              is tradition and feelings, both of which are poor revealers of God's truth:

                              Mark 7:7,8a -- "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the
                              commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the
                              tradition of men..."

                              Jeremiah 17:9 -- "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately
                              wicked; who can know it?

                              We know that the lives of the righteous will not be temporary, not because we're
                              promised "eternal life"--the Greek word translated as 'eternal' is 'aionios',
                              which Bill showed means 'age-lasting' not 'everlasting'--but because the
                              righteous are promised 'deathlessness':

                              1 Corinthians 15:51 -- Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep,
                              but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the
                              last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised
                              incorruptable [Greek: aphthartos = undecaying, incorruptable, hence immortal],
                              and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and
                              this mortal must put on immortality [Greek: athanasia = deathlessness, hence
                              immortality].

                              On the other hand, we see that "eternal fire" does eventually go out when there
                              is nothing left to burn.

                              Jude 1:7 -- As Sodom and Gamorrah, and the cities around them in a similar
                              manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone
                              after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance
                              of ETERNAL [Greek: aionios] fire.

                              2 Peter 2:6 -- And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes...

                              The same word, 'aionios' is used to describe the fires of "hell":

                              Matthew 25:41 -- "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from
                              Me, you cursed, into the everlasting [Greek: aionios] fire prepared for the
                              devil and for his angels.'"

                              So there is nothing forcing the duration of heaven to be the same as the
                              duration of "hell". Again I urge anywho who is new to this to prayerfully study
                              it. Why would God, "who SO LOVED the world" (John 3:16), and commands us to
                              "love your enemies" (Luke 6:27) not love us but torture the majority of us
                              without end? Why would God, who "sent the son to be the saviour of the world"
                              (1 John 4:14), whose "hand is not shortened that it cannot save" (Isaiah 59:1),
                              prevent Christ from fulfilling His mission of saving the world? Why would God,
                              who has declared that the "wages of sin is DEATH" (Roman 6:23) make the wage of
                              sin a tortured immortal condition instead of death?

                              -Don

                              ________________________________
                              From: "B1E1Nugent@..." <B1E1Nugent@...>
                              To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 11:17:29 PM
                              Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Ultimate reconciliation of the damned

                              I explained in the article what comes after the ages. The NT discusses a
                              succession of time periods called ages. Read in my original post about what
                              occurs at the end of the ages.
                              hint: heaven doesn't end.

                              Bill in NY

                              In a message dated 5/4/2011 11:02:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                              rolaant@... writes:

                              Hmm ... I guess if hell is temporary, then so is heaven.

                              Rolaant

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                              http://theologicallycorrect.com
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                            • dontheyounger
                              ... in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 8, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <redsox141978@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Please STOP making a mockery of YAH's word:

                                > Jud 1:7 Even as Sedom and `Amorah, and the cities around them, having,
                                in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and
                                gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the
                                punishment of eternal fire.
                                >
                                > what part of eternal do you not understand?

                                My point has always been simply this--that the English word "eternal" is
                                a poor and misleading translation of the words the writers of the
                                scriptures actually used: "aion" and its adjective form "aionios". We
                                can show conclusively that "aion", properly translated into english as
                                "age" or "eon", has a beginning, a duration, and an end. From a
                                selection of verses, we see that (1) there are many aion, (2) we are
                                living in a present aion, (3) God existed before the ages, (4) there
                                will be aion after this one (5) and that this aion will end. If
                                something has a begining, a duration, and an ending, it cannot be
                                eternal.

                                (1) Hebrews 1:2 -- has in these last days spoken to us by His
                                Son...through whom also He made the worlds [Greek: aion].

                                (2) Galatians 1:4 -- who gave Himself for our sins, that He might
                                deliver us from this present evil age [Greek: aion]...

                                (3) 1 Corinthians 2:7 -- ...the hidden wisdom which God ordained before
                                the ages [Greek: aion]...

                                (4) Ephesians 2:7 -- that in the ages [Greek: aion] to come...

                                (5) Matthew 24:3 -- ...And what will be the sign of your coming, and the
                                end of the age [Greek: aion]?

                                Specifically regarding Jude 1:7, we see that Sodom and Gomorrah were
                                "set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal [Greek:
                                aionios] fire". If this fire were literally "eternal", then would it
                                not still be going? Isn't that the definition of eternal--without end?
                                But we know by two witnesses that this aionios fire is not eternal.
                                Firstly, there's no place in the Middle East that has been on fire for
                                the last several millenia. And second, Peter tells us that God turned
                                "the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes" (2 Peter 2:6). Hence,
                                this "aionios" fire, improperly translated as "eternal" fire, burned
                                until all was reduced to ashes, and then ended.

                                > 1Jo 5:20 We know that the Son of YAH has come, and has given us an
                                understanding, that we know him who is true, and we are in him who is
                                true, in his Son Yahu'shua the Messiah. This is the true El'ohiym, and
                                eternal life.
                                >
                                > I hope you were reading Mark 7 and Jeremiah 17 in the mirror.
                                >
                                > In addition, the spirit of DECEPTION AND HASATAN has FORGED the
                                defintion of "eternal":

                                I'm honestly not following your point here. You say that the definition
                                of "eternal" was forged by the spirit of deception and satan--this seems
                                like a bad thing. You then give the defintion. I can't help but notice
                                that the definition you then quote, which you say is a deception, is the
                                same definition you apply to your interpretation of Jude 1:7--eternal.
                                I don't think this is what you meant to say? I think I'm missing
                                something here.

                                > aiōnios
                                > Pronunciation
                                >
                                > ī-ō'-nē-os (Key)
                                >
                                > Part of Speech
                                > adjective
                                >
                                > 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always
                                will be
                                >
                                > 2) without beginning
                                >
                                > 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

                                Definitions like what is given above are very commonly found in
                                concordances and Bible dictionaries. But the question is, did "aionios"
                                have that meaning when the writers of the scriptures wrote it? How did
                                the writers actually use the word? Let's throw these defintions into
                                Jude 1:7 and see if the verse still makes sense.

                                Jude 1:7 -- As Sodom and Gomorrah...are set forth as an example,
                                suffering the vengeance of [fire "without beginning and end, that which
                                always has been and always will be"]

                                Jude 1:7 -- As Sodom and Gomorrah...are set forth as an example,
                                suffering the vengeance of [fire "without beginning"]

                                Jude 1:7 -- As Sodom and Gomorrah...are set forth as an example,
                                suffering the vengeance of [fire "without end, never to cease,
                                everlasting"]

                                Does that verse make sense when we substitute thedefinitions given
                                above? No. The fire that burned Sodom to ashes most definitely had a
                                beginning (Gen 19:24), and has most definitely ceased (2 Peter 2:6).
                                So, irregardless of what definitions we find in a dictionary 2000 years
                                later, when Jude wrote his letter, he did not think that "aionios" fire
                                was "eternal".

                                > This watchman wont put up with the loco ecunmemicity of buddhism and
                                tao'ism.

                                On this we both agree.

                                -Don

                                > --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, Don Young dontheyounger@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Rolaant, by your own admission, you "GUESS if hell is temporary,
                                then so is
                                > > heaven" (CAPS added). Can we really afford to "guess" on
                                something like this?Â
                                > > But even so, guesses are often based on some sort of evidence.Â
                                Where is the
                                > > scriptural evidence that hell and heaven MUST have the same
                                duration? And if
                                > > there is no scriptural evidence, then the only thing we base that
                                assumption on
                                > > is tradition and feelings, both of which are poor revealers of God's
                                truth:
                                > >
                                > > Mark 7:7,8a -- "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines
                                the
                                > > commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God,
                                you hold the
                                > > tradition of men..."
                                > >
                                > > Jeremiah 17:9 -- "The heart is deceitful above all things, and
                                desperately
                                > > wicked; who can know it?
                                > >
                                > > We know that the lives of the righteous will not be temporary, not
                                because we're
                                > > promised "eternal life"--the Greek word translated as 'eternal' is
                                'aionios',
                                > > which Bill showed means 'age-lasting' not 'everlasting'--but because
                                the
                                > > righteous are promised 'deathlessness':
                                > >
                                > > 1 Corinthians 15:51 -- Behold, I tell you a mystery:Â We shall
                                not all sleep,
                                > > but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an
                                eye, at the
                                > > last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be
                                raised
                                > > incorruptable [Greek: aphthartos = undecaying, incorruptable, hence
                                immortal],
                                > > and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on
                                incorruption, and
                                > > this mortal must put on immortality [Greek: athanasia =
                                deathlessness, hence
                                > > immortality].
                                > >
                                > > On the other hand, we see that "eternal fire" does eventually go out
                                when there
                                > > is nothing left to burn.
                                > >
                                > > Jude 1:7 -- As Sodom and Gamorrah, and the cities around them in a
                                similar
                                > > manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality
                                and gone
                                > > after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the
                                vengeance
                                > > of ETERNAL [Greek: aionios] fire.
                                > >
                                > > 2 Peter 2:6 -- And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into
                                ashes...
                                > >
                                > > The same word, 'aionios' is used to describe the fires of "hell":
                                > >
                                > > Matthew 25:41 -- "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,
                                'Depart from
                                > > Me, you cursed, into the everlasting [Greek: aionios] fire prepared
                                for the
                                > > devil and for his angels.'"
                                > >
                                > > So there is nothing forcing the duration of heaven to be the same as
                                the
                                > > duration of "hell". Again I urge anywho who is new to this to
                                prayerfully study
                                > > it. Why would God, "who SO LOVED the world" (John 3:16),Â
                                and commands us to
                                > > "love your enemies" (Luke 6:27) not love us but torture the majority
                                of us
                                > > without end? Why would God, who "sent the son to be the
                                saviour of the world"
                                > > (1 John 4:14), whose "hand is not shortened that it cannot save"
                                (Isaiah 59:1),
                                > > prevent Christ from fulfilling His mission of saving the world?Â
                                Why would God,
                                > > who has declared that the "wages of sin is DEATH" (Roman 6:23) make
                                the wage of
                                > > sin a tortured immortal condition instead of death?Â
                                > >
                                > > -Don
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ________________________________
                                > > From: "B1E1Nugent@" B1E1Nugent@
                                > > To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 11:17:29 PM
                                > > Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Ultimate reconciliation of
                                the damned
                                > >
                                > > Â
                                > > I explained in the article what comes after the ages. The NT
                                discusses a
                                > > succession of time periods called ages. Read in my original post
                                about what
                                > > occurs at the end of the ages.
                                > > hint: heaven doesn't end.
                                > >
                                > > Bill in NY
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > In a message dated 5/4/2011 11:02:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                > > rolaant@ writes:
                                > >
                                > > Hmm ... I guess if hell is temporary, then so is heaven.
                                > >
                                > > Rolaant
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • dontheyounger
                                Hi Goeff, You have presented in the post and others many important verses that do show that those to reject Christ will be rejected by Him. Both of us could
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 9, 2011
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                                  Hi Goeff,

                                  You have presented in the post and others many important verses that do
                                  show that those to reject Christ will be rejected by Him. Both of us
                                  could probably come up with dozens of such verses given a few minutes.

                                  However, that does not diminish or invalidate in the least verses such
                                  as these:

                                  * 1 John 2:2 -- And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the
                                  Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiations
                                  for our sins, and NOT FOR OURS ONLY but for the WHOLE WORLD.
                                  * 1 John 4:14 -- And we have seen and testify that the Father sent
                                  the Son as Savior of THE WORLD.
                                  * John 12:32 -- And I if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL
                                  people to Myself.
                                  * 1 Timothy 2:3-6 -- For this is good and acceptable in the sight of
                                  God our Savior, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the
                                  knowledge of the truth...For there is one God and one Mediator between
                                  God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom FOR ALL.
                                  * 1 Timothy 4:10 -- For to this end we both labor and suffer
                                  reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL
                                  men, especially [and hence, not exclusively] of those who believe.
                                  * 2 Peter 3:9 -- The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as
                                  some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that
                                  any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.
                                  * Luke 19:10 -- "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that
                                  which was lost."

                                  I'm sure you will agree with me that:

                                  * Psalms 119:160 -- The ENTIRETY of Your word is truth...
                                  * 2 Timothy 3:16 -- ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God...

                                  So, since all of God's word is true, how does one rectify seemingly
                                  contradictory messages such as God being "not willing that any should
                                  perish but that ALL should come to repentance" and "whoever denies Me
                                  before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven"?
                                  Seriously.

                                  --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "geoff Smith" <gc.smith@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Rev. 20:11-12;
                                  > " 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from
                                  whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for
                                  them.
                                  > 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the
                                  throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the
                                  book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were
                                  written in the books, according to their deeds."
                                  >
                                  > All who have died at the time of the judgement will stand before our
                                  Lord Jesus to be judged, who has been given the power to judge by the
                                  Father.
                                  > Paul says: Phil. 2:10;
                                  > 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are
                                  in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

                                  Yes, every knee will bow, "that every tongue should confess that Jesus
                                  Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:11). How
                                  is this possible? "No one can say that Jesus is Lord EXCEPT BY THE HOLY
                                  SPIRIT" (1 Corinthians 12:3). And what will they confess?

                                  Isaiah 45:23,24 -- "I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My
                                  mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee
                                  shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. He shall say, 'Surely IN
                                  THE LORD I HAVE RIGHTEOUNESS AND STRENGTH. To Him men shall come, and
                                  all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. In the LORD ALL the
                                  descendants of Israel shall be justified, and shall glory'".

                                  These people are not bowing simply in acknowledgment of God's power, but
                                  in praise that they have righteousness and strength in God, which is
                                  only possible by the working of the Holy Spirit. And who does the verse
                                  say? "All Israel". King Saul and the many wicked kings after him? The
                                  generation that wandered the wilderness before entering Canaan? The
                                  Pharisees who John and Jesus and the apostles all criticized? Herod?
                                  Were they not Israelites?

                                  > Rev. 22:13-14;
                                  > " 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and
                                  Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every
                                  one of them according to their deeds.
                                  > 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the
                                  second death, the lake of fire."
                                  >
                                  > But, if their name is not in the Book of Life V. 12, they will be cast
                                  into the everlasting fire V. 15.
                                  >
                                  > Rev. 22:15;
                                  > " 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life,
                                  he was thrown into the lake of fire."

                                  Would you agree with me that the fire in the lake of fire is not actual
                                  fire? The book of Revelation is, after all, "signified" (i.e.
                                  symbolized) to John (Revelation 1:1). And looking specifically at the
                                  lake, we see that "Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire"
                                  (Revelation 20:13). How can something immaterial like death be affected
                                  in any way by actual fire? No, the lake cannot be some huge lava pit or
                                  any physical object. This is what symbolic fire is:

                                  * Jeremiah 5:14 -- Therefore thus says the LORD God of hosts:
                                  "Because you speak this word, behold, I will make MY WORDS in your mouth
                                  FIRE, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.
                                  * Revelation 11:5 -- And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds
                                  FROM THEIR MOUTH and devours their enemies.

                                  And this is what symbolic fire does:

                                  * 1 Corinthians 3:15 -- If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer
                                  loss, but he himself WILL BE SAVED, yet so AS THROUGH FIRE.

                                  I realize that this is a very unorthodox understanding of scripture, but
                                  does that make it wrong? Consider for a moment that what Jesus spoke
                                  was also very unorthodox.

                                  * Matthew 7:28 -- And so it was, when Jesus had ended these saings,
                                  that the people were astonished at His teaching, for He taught them as
                                  one having authority, and NOT AS THE SCRIBES [who were the spiritual
                                  leaders, the "pastors" of the day].

                                  Consider that it is the the FEW who find the strait gate. It is the
                                  MANY who are rejected by Christ, and further, that it is many CHRISTIANS
                                  who are rejected:

                                  * Matthew 7:22 -- MANY will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have
                                  we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done
                                  many wonders in Your name?' [Who does these things in Christ's name?
                                  Christians!] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart
                                  from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

                                  This warning isn't to those who reject Jesus in life--it's to those
                                  Christians who claim Him, who dedicate their works to Him, who perform
                                  miracles, and have gifts of the spirit of God, and have power to cast
                                  demons out! Don't believe me--read the verse. Not that all such people
                                  will be rejected. Jesus says "many", not "all". But the point is that
                                  many devout Christians are missing something key even while fully
                                  convinced of their correctness. So I'm not too terribly concerned if I
                                  speak something contrary to the doctrines of "many" Christians if I see
                                  the word of God saying something different.

                                  > I have known a number of Calvinists in my life time. They have what is
                                  some times refered to as 'Tender hearted love'. There is absolutely
                                  nothing wrong with such love, but it does mean that they are liable to
                                  ignore the loving 'Tough love', which is corrective.

                                  Agreed completely. It is not enough to "accept Jesus". Only one who
                                  "does the will of my Father in heaven" (Matthew 7:21) will enter the
                                  kingdom of God. We must change and endure to the end.

                                  > If people will not obey the Lord, why should he have them at his side
                                  in eternity. If they don't want him during life, why should they reap
                                  the benefits of the love of Christ in eternity.

                                  Observation: and it's more of a perception common within Christianity
                                  than a doctrine. You ask, why reap the benefits of love if people don't
                                  love the Lord in their lifetime? But I ask you, is the love of God, or
                                  the gifts He gives, in any way dependent upon us?

                                  * 1 John 4:19 -- We love Him because He FIRST loved us.
                                  * 1 John 4:10 -- In this is love, NOT THAT WE LOVED GOD, but that He
                                  loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
                                  * Romans 5:8 -- But God demonstrates HIS OWN love toward us, in that
                                  WHILE WE WERE STILL SINNERS, Christ died for us.

                                  The fact is that when you were born you HATED God:

                                  * Romans 8:7 -- Because the carnal mind is enmity [hatred] against
                                  God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

                                  This is still true for many Christians, as Paul said to the Corinthian
                                  church, who "came short in no gift" as are "many" Christians (1
                                  Corinthians 1:7):

                                  * 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 -- And I, brethren, could not speak to you as
                                  to spiritual people but as to CARNAL, as to babes in Christ...for where
                                  there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal...?

                                  The ONLY reason we love God is because God CAUSED us to love Him. Our
                                  love of Him and our salvation are completely, and utterly His doing.
                                  There is nothing--NOTHING that we do to gain that love or salvation.

                                  * Ephesians 2:8 -- For by grace you have been saved through faith,
                                  and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest
                                  anyone should boast.
                                  * John 6:44 -- No one CAN come to Me unless the Father who sent Me
                                  draws him...

                                  How often do we hear "you can't do anything to save yourself", followed
                                  shortly afterward by "all you have to do to be saved is accept Jesus as
                                  your personal Lord and savior". Isn't accepting Him DOING something?
                                  Do we, as carnal sinful human being, have the power within us to accept
                                  Jesus? Absolutely not!

                                  * Philippians 2:13 -- For it is God [not us] who works in you both TO
                                  WILL [to even desire] and to do for His good pleasure.
                                  * Romans 3:10,11 -- As it is written: "There is none righteous, no,
                                  not one; there is none who understands; THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER
                                  GOD."

                                  God GIVES us the gift of salvation. How so? Through faith (Ephesians
                                  2:8). And how do we gain faith?

                                  * Romans 10:17 -- So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the
                                  word of God.

                                  Which of us, out of the blue, did the unscriptural action of suddenly
                                  deciding to seek after God and go find someone to teach us the gospel?
                                  It's not within our nature to do so. Nevertheless, "I was found by
                                  those WHO DID NOT SEEK ME; I was made manifest to those who DID NOT ASK
                                  FOR ME" (Romans 11:20). It is God who seeks us. It is God who freely
                                  gives us faith, which leads to salvation:

                                  * Romans 12:3 -- For I say, through the grace given to me, to
                                  everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he
                                  ought to think, but to think soberly, as GOD HAS DEALT TO EACH ONE A
                                  MEASURE OF FAITH.

                                  If it was truly up to us to love God or not, perhaps there would be
                                  something to the argument that we deserve heaven for choosing Him, but
                                  it's not up to us. God saves who, how, and when He desires. Until he
                                  saves, our carnal minds have no choice but to reject Him. But after He
                                  saves, He changes us so that we become new creatures filled with His
                                  spirit and one with Him, so that it now goes against our nature to
                                  reject Him.

                                  Everyone who rejects Christ in this lifetime does so for the simple
                                  reason that they have no choice but to do so because God has not yet
                                  extended His salvation to them. But the Bible teaches us that there are
                                  resurrections after death:

                                  * John 5:28,29 -- Do not mavel at this; for the hour is coming in
                                  which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come
                                  forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those
                                  who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

                                  Those in the resurrection of condemnation are judged before God's thrown
                                  and then cast into the lake of fire. But as we've already seen, the
                                  lake is not actual fire. The fire is "My words" (Jeremiah 5:14), the
                                  hearing of which leads to faith (Romans 10:17), which leads to salvation
                                  (Ephesians 2:8), which burns all evil works from the sinner. It is a
                                  painful process, in which there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth"
                                  (Matthew 8:12), but the end result is not everlasting torture--God
                                  forbid that the God of love would perform the most unloving act
                                  imaginable!--but salvation (1 Corinthians 3:12-15).

                                  Those in the lake of fire go through judgment THEN just as those who are
                                  saved in this lifetime go through judgment and fire NOW.

                                  * 1 Peter 4:17 -- For the time has come for judgment to begin at the
                                  house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of
                                  those who do not obey the gospel of God?
                                  * 1 Peter 4:12 -- Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the
                                  FIERY TRIAL which is to try you.

                                  Compare to 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, which describes one's works becoming
                                  clear on "the Day"--that day of judgment for the house of God "has come"
                                  already--revealed "by fire" that "will test [or, as Peter says, "try"]
                                  each one's work." And "if anyone is burned, he will suffer loss", but
                                  will "be saved, yet so as through fire".

                                  Then compare to the Great Throne judgment of Revelation 20, another day
                                  of judgment in which people are cast into symbolic fire, which 1
                                  Corinthians says causes one to "suffer", but also saves.

                                  > They decided to turn their back on Christ in life, he will turn his
                                  back on them in eternity,

                                  There, but for the grace of God, go YOU. There, but for the grace of
                                  God, go I. Our salvation is a function of God's work, not our
                                  decisions. We judge God, not men, if we say this.

                                  > for he said, Mt. 7:21-23;
                                  > " 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the
                                  kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in
                                  heaven will enter.
                                  > 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy
                                  in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform
                                  many miracles?'
                                  > 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM
                                  ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'"
                                  > and
                                  > Mt. 10:33;
                                  > " 33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My
                                  Father who is in heaven."
                                  >
                                  > How dare we deny what Jesus himself says! He is definite in his
                                  condemnation of those who deny him during their life time on earth. We
                                  do not have the authority to misrepresent Jesus teaching!

                                  > I agree with both Rolaant and Mark. Their comments are very much to
                                  the point. Mis interpret the word of God at your peril.
                                  >
                                  > Jesus last message to us is:
                                  >
                                  > Rev. 22:1016;
                                  > " 10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of
                                  this book, for the time is near.
                                  > 11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is
                                  filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still
                                  practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself
                                  holy."
                                  > 12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render
                                  to every man according to what he has done.
                                  > 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the
                                  beginning and the end."
                                  > 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the
                                  right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
                                  > 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and
                                  the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices
                                  lying.
                                  > 16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for
                                  the churches I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright
                                  morning star." "
                                  >
                                  > I love our Lord Jesus and God our Father far too much to deny his
                                  word. I marvel that so many are prepared to misinterpret the scripture
                                  to include all who have denied him in life. It would be so wrong and
                                  unjust of God to include them in his eternal kingdom in the end, for, it
                                  would mean that all who acknowledge him in life need not have to receive
                                  the forgiveness of their sins by God, since they would have been given
                                  eternal life anyway. It just means that the salvation and subsequent
                                  sacrifice of Jesus Christ to have been pointless and a waist of time. Is
                                  that the case? No! Most definitely not! Jesus is steadfast in his
                                  condemnation just as he is steadfast in his loving, righteous just
                                  dealings with those that love him, stretching out his hand to those that
                                  surrender to him.
                                  >
                                  > Yours in Christ,
                                  >
                                  > Geoff

                                  God is saving a few now, in this lifetime. He saves them out of his
                                  grace, by giving faith, and purifying them through fiery trials, even as
                                  Christ, "though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things
                                  which He suffered" (Hebrews 5:8).

                                  Later, God is saving the rest, by putting them through "fiery trials" in
                                  the lake of fire, that they also might learn obedience (as do we now),
                                  that they might repent (as do we now), that they may recognize that
                                  Christ is Lord and master and say "in the Lord I have righteousness and
                                  strength".

                                  So no one is getting in "for free"--that's, as you so rightly point out,
                                  utterly contradictory to the words of Christ. Everything that a true
                                  Christian goes through now, everyone else must go through before
                                  entering the kingdom of God. As Christ says, "assuredly, I say to you,
                                  you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny"
                                  (Matthew 5:26).

                                  God is love, and desires all to be saved. But God is also just, and
                                  will reward every human being according to their works. One will not be
                                  saved until they have reaped what they have sown--but, when they have,
                                  God will save them in the same way that He has saved and is saving us.

                                  God bless,

                                  -Don




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Rolaant McKenzie
                                  Hi Geoff, I, like you, do not see hell as a purgatory that the lost leave for heaven after their penance is done. I see nothing in the Bible that indicates
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 10, 2011
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                                    Hi Geoff,

                                    I, like you, do not see hell as a purgatory that the lost leave for heaven
                                    after their penance is done. I see nothing in the Bible that indicates that
                                    the Hitlers, Stalins, Pol Pots, and others who had spent their lives
                                    rejecting God and doing evil being let into heaven later.

                                    God bless,

                                    Rolaant
                                  • B1E1Nugent@aol.com
                                    There are several verses that say that Jesus is the Savior of the world. The necessary inference is that Jesus will ultimately actually save the whole world.
                                    Message 17 of 20 , May 10, 2011
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                                      There are several verses that say that Jesus is the Savior of the world.
                                      The necessary inference is that Jesus will ultimately actually save the whole
                                      world. If I see 2 men drowning and I jump in the water and bring both to
                                      shore and one survives and the other dies did I save both men from drowning?
                                      No, I saved one from drowning. I am the 'savior' of the one who survived
                                      but I am not the 'savior' of the one who died. Jesus is the Savior who will
                                      actually save the whole world.

                                      Since 1 John 2:2 says that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the
                                      whole world the necessary inference is that Jesus will ultimately, actually
                                      extend forgiveness to all people. Those who reject Christ and go to hell
                                      will ultimately be saved at the end of their torment in hell. Jesus made
                                      propitiation for their sins too.

                                      Bill in NY


                                      In a message dated 5/9/2011 11:42:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                      dontheyounger@... writes:

                                      * 1 John 2:2 -- And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the
                                      Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiations
                                      for our sins, and NOT FOR OURS ONLY but for the WHOLE WORLD.
                                      * 1 John 4:14 -- And we have seen and testify that the Father sent
                                      the Son as Savior of THE WORLD.
                                      * John 12:32 -- And I if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL
                                      people to Myself.
                                      * 1 Timothy 2:3-6 -- For this is good and acceptable in the sight of
                                      God our Savior, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the
                                      knowledge of the truth...For there is one God and one Mediator between
                                      God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom FOR ALL.
                                      * 1 Timothy 4:10 -- For to this end we both labor and suffer
                                      reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL
                                      men, especially [and hence, not exclusively] of those who believe.
                                      * 2 Peter 3:9 -- The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as
                                      some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that
                                      any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.
                                      * Luke 19:10 -- "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that
                                      which was lost."




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Ron Parks
                                      Yes and Satan is the deceiver of the world and even the God of this world . What about He that has the Son has life, he that has not the Son, has not life.
                                      Message 18 of 20 , May 10, 2011
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                                        Yes and Satan is the deceiver of the world and even the God of this world .

                                        What about "He that has the Son has life, he that has not the Son, has not
                                        life. Theses things I have written to you that believe on the name of the
                                        Son of God that you may know you have eternal life" Note not everyone but
                                        those who belive on him. How about in John 3:16 "for whosoever believes in
                                        him" not everyone... BELIEVERS. Were not certain things listed such as
                                        idolaters, adulterer and so forth told that they will "NEVER" see the
                                        kingdom of heaven? Yes those things can be forgiven, IF we confess sins He
                                        is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to forgive us our sins and
                                        cleanse us of all unrighteousness. God gave Adam free will and he gives us
                                        the same. He does not force his ways on us which he would have to do to
                                        include everyone. Yes one day (after this life) there will be a time when
                                        all will have to admit he is Lord but that is too late. If what you say is
                                        true, it would be obviously stated in scripture and their would be no need
                                        to twist words to try and make them mean something else. As far as what a
                                        loving God would or would not do... Well, he IS God and we do not define for
                                        him what he must do to qualify a just and loving God. He is ... by his own
                                        definition... and we don't have the right to evaluate Him... HE evaluates
                                        us!

                                        I have to go in a few minutes and can not answer all the scriptures below
                                        but it is important to know all we can about the scriptures in context. One
                                        scripture quoted below was: * John 12:32 -- And I if I am lifted up from the
                                        earth, will draw all people to myself. Now look at John 3:14-15 (they ARE
                                        cross referenced) "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness even
                                        so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in him have
                                        eternal life". This referes to Numbers 21:6-9 where the people were being
                                        bitten by "fiery serpents" Moses was told by God to make a bronze serpant an
                                        set it on a standard (pole). God said that he was required to look at it in
                                        order to live. It is that way with Jesus too. We are commanded by Jesus to
                                        lift him up to a lost and dying world. However, the world MUST look to him
                                        to be saved. Jesus DID come to save the whole world and he does not desire
                                        that any should perish BUT he gave us the choice. it is ours to make!


                                        This is, however, an interesting way to escape the awesome responsibility
                                        that the Lord gave us when he said go and tell our communities, countries
                                        and the world about him and his gospel and make them disciples. It's not
                                        near as important if you take away the awful consequences of our
                                        disobedience.
                                        Ron - Western NC

                                        *****************************************************************************

                                        There are several verses that say that Jesus is the Savior of the world.
                                        The NEcessary Inference Is that Jesus WIll ultimately actually asve the
                                        whole
                                        world. If I see 2 men drowning and I jump in the water and bring both to
                                        shore and one survives and the other dies did I save both men from drowning?

                                        No, I saved one from drowning. I am the 'savior' of the one who survived
                                        but I am not the 'savior' of the one who died. Jesus is the Savior who will
                                        actually save the whole world.

                                        Since 1 John 2:2 says that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the
                                        whole world the necessary inference is that Jesus will ultimately, actually
                                        extend forgiveness to all people. Those who reject Christ and go to hell
                                        will ultimately be saved at the end of their torment in hell. Jesus made
                                        propitiation for their sins too.

                                        Bill in NY


                                        In a message dated 5/9/2011 11:42:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                        dontheyounger@... writes:

                                        * 1 John 2:2 -- And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the
                                        Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiations
                                        for our sins, and NOT FOR OURS ONLY but for the WHOLE WORLD.
                                        * 1 John 4:14 -- And we have seen and testify that the Father sent
                                        the Son as Savior of THE WORLD.
                                        * John 12:32 -- And I if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL
                                        people to Myself.
                                        * 1 Timothy 2:3-6 -- For this is good and acceptable in the sight of
                                        God our Savior, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the
                                        knowledge of the truth...For there is one God and one Mediator between
                                        God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom FOR ALL.
                                        * 1 Timothy 4:10 -- For to this end we both labor and suffer
                                        reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL
                                        men, especially [and hence, not exclusively] of those who believe.
                                        * 2 Peter 3:9 -- The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as
                                        some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that
                                        any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.
                                        * Luke 19:10 -- "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that
                                        which was lost."

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