Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

"Faith Alone? - Part 2" by Joseph Y. Lee

Expand Messages
  • josephylee@aol.com
    Faith Alone? - Part 2 By Joseph Yosuk Lee Many Klu Klux Klan members claim to be Christians, and yet they refuse to repent. They have no sorrow for their
    Message 1 of 12 , May 1, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Faith Alone? - Part 2
      By Joseph Yosuk Lee



      Many Klu Klux Klan members claim to be Christians,
      and yet they refuse to repent. They have no sorrow
      for their sins. I still have no doubt that we are
      not saved by our own righteousness. (Titus 3:5)
      However, you need to show your works and your
      genuine desire to repent as proof for genuineness
      of your faith. (Galatians 5:6) The lack of such
      proof of one's genuine faith is called cheap grace.
      (James 2:26) 'Cheap grace' is very difficult to
      define, but we can use an analogy to better
      understand the concept. Let's suppose a woman get
      married, but she has an affair with another man.
      She does not have any sorrows for her sins and
      does not turn away from it. Like the woman above,
      all of us are spiritual fornicators. However, God's
      grace is 100% efficacious, and it is this grace that
      compels Christians to go back to Him and say, "Lord,
      I am a wretch. Please forgive me." Such confession
      is one of many proofs that we are Christians. (1
      John 1:8,9) Cheap grace cannot produce the sorrow
      of a wretched sinner. (Romans 7:15)



      So, am I saying that Faith and Works are needed to be
      saved? Am I also saying that we must live a perfect
      life in order to be saved? Not at all. Our works is
      tainted with sin, and nobody lived a perfect life.
      (Romans 3:23) Mankind is totally depraved. All of
      our mind, emotion, and will is tainted with sin. If
      we desire to be good, it is nothing but filthy rags
      to God. (Isaiah 64:6) Our prayer life and reading of
      the word is continually tainted with sin. We do not
      earn any merit when we are being justified and
      sanctified through our faith. Our faith in Jesus
      which produced our justification and sanctification
      is a gift from God. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Since our
      sanctification goes together with justification,
      those who claim to be justified must also show proof
      of their sanctification. They must show fruits that
      come from the vine of Jesus' saving grace and power.
      So if a person claims to be a Christian by believing
      he is justified of his sins and yet continues to sin-
      thus showing no proofs of his sanctification-we
      should question if he was justified in the first place.



      The correct formula in terms of our status is:



      Jesus (Faith) => Justification (Salvation) + Sanctification (Works)



      A closer analogy to the formula above is a chemistry formula
      of 2H2O => 2H2 + O2. You should avoid thinking like the
      2 + 2 = 4 formula.



      Biography of Joseph Y. Lee:


      University of Southern California
      Electrical Engineering, MS ‘04


      University of California, Irvine
      Materials Science and Engineering, MS ‘97


      University of California, Berkeley
      Physics and Math, BA ‘94


      He is currently working at Samsung Electro-Mechanics
      as a senior engineer working on package process, design,
      and layout since January 2005. He has authored and
      co-authored 7 papers and 4 patents. His hobbies
      include areas like the violin, piano, photography,
      computer repair, reading, and mountain climbing. In
      high school, he won honorable mention in Knoxville
      Youth Symphony Dogwood Arts Festival violin concerto
      contest and 1st place in the Oak Ridge Symphony
      Orchestra violin concerto contest with his younger
      brother Richard as his duet partner.



      Copyright - CHEMISTRY (CHristian E-mail MIniSTRY)
      E-mail: _JosephYLee@..._ (mailto:JosephYLee@...) , Website:
      _http://www.josephylee.org_ (http://www.josephylee.org/)

      **************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
      web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
      (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000003)


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • paul.charlwood
      ... I would agree with everything you have said as far as it goes. However I would like to point out a couple of things. Firstly, as Christians we are meant to
      Message 2 of 12 , May 4, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, josephylee@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > Faith Alone? - Part 2
        > By Joseph Yosuk Lee

        I would agree with everything you have said as far as it goes. However I would like to point out a couple of things.

        Firstly, as Christians we are meant to believe scripture, study it and practise what we find there. Now scripture was written by Jews (Luke being the only exception I am aware of) and needs to be viewed in that context. The concept of having an internal world of thought and emotion which need not be expressed in action in the external, physical world is a product of Greek philosophy, Platonism I believe, not scripture, and is antithetical to Hebraic understanding where something is not real UNLESS it is expressed by action in the real world. Thus when scripture speaks of God or Christ having compassion that emotion is ALWAYS accompanied by some action, usually healing or the merciful ending of a punishment or some such. Therefore in Hebrew thought and in our Scriptures repentance and faith REQUIRE some physical outworking in order to be real. In other words how we think and feel inside MUST change how we act outside or it simply is not real. Hence James is perfectly correct to say (despite Luther's concerns to the contrary) that faith without works is dead for to the Jewish mind faith without works is not real faith. (I believe that we as Christians should seek to mirror Hebraic thought patterns and reject Greek, Persian or Eastern philosophies particularly as a means of interpreting scripture.)

        Secondly sanctification and holiness each have two meanings. The first is a once and forever action where something (or someone) is set aside or devoted to a particular, usually religious purpose. The second is the ongoing process of purification as you describe above. Thus as a Christian it is correct to say that I am both sanctified (in the sense of being set apart for God's purposes and glory) and am also being sanctified (in the sense of an ongoing process whereby I am being made more Christlike and pure as time goes on). It would never be correct to say that I am sanctified in the sense of being prefect here and now as some Christians believe, particularly second blessing, faith mission types, as scrpiture clearly teaches that we will never be perfect this side of glorification.

        Just some constructive thoughts, not even real criticisms, as I agree with the thrust of your pamphlet. Hope you find them helpful,

        Yours in Christ, Paul.
      • yusefii
        Paul wrote:
        Message 3 of 12 , May 4, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Paul wrote:

          <<Firstly, as Christians we are meant to believe scripture, study it and practise what we find there. Now scripture was written by Jews (Luke being the only exception I am aware of) and needs to be viewed in that context. The concept of having an internal world of thought and emotion which need not be expressed in action in the external, physical world is a product of Greek philosophy, Platonism I believe, not scripture, and is antithetical to Hebraic understanding where something is not real UNLESS it is expressed by action in the real world. Thus when scripture speaks of God or Christ having compassion that emotion is ALWAYS accompanied by some action, usually healing or the merciful ending of a punishment or some such. Therefore in Hebrew thought and in our Scriptures repentance and faith REQUIRE some physical outworking in order to be real. In other words how we think and feel inside MUST change how we act outside or it simply is not real. Hence James is perfectly correct to say (despite Luther's concerns to the contrary) that faith without works is dead for to the Jewish mind faith without works is not real faith. (I believe that we as Christians should seek to mirror Hebraic thought patterns and reject Greek, Persian or Eastern philosophies particularly as a means of interpreting scripture.)>>

          Nuance is everything.

          With that said, this analysis or account of faith actually sounds like something that Campbellites or the Vatican might say. If (even loosely speaking) something does not exist until there is some noticable effect or manifestation of this thing, then by analogy one has not believed in Christ until he has done some act or work. It's as simple as that, and there are no two ways about it: if in Romans 4 the Jew (or rather Benjamite) Saul of Tarsus says that one "is justified of faith" and as a Jew meanwhile has in mind the idea that one is justified through both faith proper and a sign or demonstration thereof, then that's exactly the idea he has in mind and is communicating: that one is justified through faith *and* the sign.

          So justification then becomes contingent upon some showing or manifestation of faith proper. Not every proposed solution to the (supposed) Paul/James problem commits one to the idea of justification through faith-plus-X,Y,or-Z; however, to suggest that faith without works was thought by Jews qua Jews to be nonexistent seems like an unintentional bid to put people on the road to worse forms of heterodoxy. Besides, the said suggestion is not necessarily the same thing as the suggestion that faith without works is aptly described by the word "dead," as James of course described some faith. Perhaps we could grant that works somehow complete faith or somehow fulfill certain expectations and underlying presuppositions that we have concerning faith; but one is really treading dangerous ground when he posits that faith without works is in a sense nonexistent.

          Regardless, thanks.
          -Kwame
          P.S. All philosophies can be put to good use. Meanwhile, as someone living in this 21st century of the modern era and in this time of advanced scientific discoveries, I reject the archaic Hebraic idea that emotions come from the kidneys--or, at least I've been told they come from the kidneys or such!
        • paul.charlwood
          ... that one is justified through faith *and* the sign. ... I do understand your concerns here and largely agree with them, however a few practical point
          Message 4 of 12 , May 9, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "yusefii" <yusefii@...> wrote:

            that one is justified through faith *and* the sign.
            >
            > So justification then becomes contingent upon some showing or manifestation of faith proper. one is really treading dangerous ground when he posits that faith without works is in a sense nonexistent.
            >
            > Regardless, thanks.
            > -Kwame

            I do understand your concerns here and largely agree with them, however a few practical point spring immediately to mind.

            Firstly we are not even really justified by faith but rather BY Grace THROUGH Faith and it is that grace which obviates the need in a few very exceptional cases for faith not to be proven, expressed, worked out etc. I whole heartedly agree that works do not and cannot EARN us salvation or justification but then faith cannot do so either. Salvation is of Grace, a free gift (to us) bought for us by Christ's full obedience even to death on a cross, and even then only because God in his graciousness has chosen in his economy of justice to allow that one perfect sacrifice to pay for the sins of the many. And faith itself is a gracious gift bestowed by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. So salvation is all of God. It is in this context that I say that faith must, as a general rule of thumb, be expressed in this physical world to be real. Even the thief on the cross beside Jesus was able to express his faith in his defence of Christ and in his request.

            One of the greatest faults amongst evangelical christians today (and one of the greatest failings of the church) is the lack of concrete evidence in their lives that their faith actually means anything to them. This leaves them open, often correctly, to charges of hypocracy. It is too easy to champion the cause of sola fide at the expense of works and frankly I believe that some unscrupulous 'evangelicals' do so to avoid works as the Pharisees avoided supporting their relatives by declaring any spare cash/posessions corban. Let us not forget that Christ himself, in the parable of the sheep and the goats, praised the sheep for their actions not their faith and condemned the goats for their inactions. Good works are, indeed must be, an important part of the Christian life and surely, given the fallen nature of man must stem from his regenerated nature just as faith does.

            Secondly, how can we as men who see only the outward appearance hope to exercise sacrimental discipline within our churches if faith is not expressed outwardly in some recognisable way. Church membership in Protestant circles has always rested on a CREDIBLE profession of faith which by the very fact that it is defined as such must require more evidence than a simple statement of belief/faith. How much more is open to debate but something more is required. Therefore again faith needs to be proven in practical terms.

            Yours in Christ, Paul
          • James
            ... . Well the Apostle Paul said Christians ~are~; Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Ro 5:1
            Message 5 of 12 , May 9, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              paul.charlwood wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Firstly we are not even really justified by faith
              >
              .
              Well the Apostle Paul said Christians ~are~;
              Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without
              the deeds of the law.
              Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God
              through our Lord Jesus Christ:
              Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
              but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ,
              that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works
              of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
              Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ,
              that we might be justified by faith.
              .

              > but rather BY Grace THROUGH Faith
              >
              .
              "Rather" is incorrect. It's both.

              James Kirby
              .
            • yusefii
              If I m not mistaken, James, the translation you were using was the KJV. Since the time of the KJV various words have of course taken on new meanings and uses,
              Message 6 of 12 , May 9, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                If I'm not mistaken, James, the translation you were using was the KJV. Since the time of the KJV various words have of course taken on new meanings and uses, whether in processes of specializiation or generalization. With that said, the preposition "by" apparently has taken on a more nuanced meaning since the days of King James, hence the common act of one's insisting that one is justified through faith but not by it. Both "through" and "by" connote medial causes, true enough; however, the word "by" deals more with a means or tool by which something is done. So the idea is that God does not use faith as a *means or tool* of justification but rather does something else (which turns out to be his justifying someone more or less *in response* to something, namely faith).

                So in a way, it's probably "not both" as you say to Paul but rather through faith.

                Such is the fun of dealing with the fracturing of old Indo-European.

                -Kwame

                --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, James <jamesjay@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > paul.charlwood wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Firstly we are not even really justified by faith
                > >
                > .
                > Well the Apostle Paul said Christians ~are~;
                > Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without
                > the deeds of the law.
                > Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God
                > through our Lord Jesus Christ:
                > Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
                > but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ,
                > that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works
                > of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
                > Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ,
                > that we might be justified by faith.
                > .
                >
                > > but rather BY Grace THROUGH Faith
                > >
                > .
                > "Rather" is incorrect. It's both.
                >
                > James Kirby
              • James
                ... Ro 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Ro 5:1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace
                Message 7 of 12 , May 9, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  yusefii wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > If I'm not mistaken, James, the translation you were using was the KJV.
                  >
                  > -Kwame
                  >
                  > .
                  Ro 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from
                  the works of the law.
                  Ro 5:1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God
                  through our Lord Jesus Christ;
                  Ga 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law
                  but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus,
                  that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of
                  the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
                  Ga 3:24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ,
                  that we might be justified by faith. ASV

                  Ro 3:28 Then we conclude a man to be justified by faith without works
                  of law.
                  Ro 5:1 Then being justified by faith, we have peace with God through
                  our Lord Jesus Christ,
                  Ga 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by works of law, but that
                  it is through faith in Jesus Christ (we also believed in Christ Jesus,
                  that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of law,
                  because all flesh will not be justified by works of law).
                  Ga 3:24 So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that
                  we might be justified by faith.
                  LITV

                  Rom 3:28 Therefore, we maintain [that] a person is justified [or,
                  declared righteous] by faith apart from works of [the] Law. ALT.

                  Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without
                  the works of the Law. MKJV

                  Rom 3:28 For (46) we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart
                  from works of the Law. NASB

                  Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from
                  observing the law. NIV

                  Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart
                  from the deeds of the law. NKJV
                  .
                  > Since the time of the KJV various words have of course taken on new
                  > meanings and uses, whether in processes of specializiation or
                  > generalization.
                  .
                  Irrelevant. All other versions use "by". There's no reason to believe
                  the meaning of that word is changed.
                  .
                  > With that said, the preposition "by" apparently has taken on a more
                  > nuanced meaning since the days of King James,
                  .
                  Your opinion... which you are entitled to.
                  .
                  > hence the common act of one's insisting that one is justified through
                  > faith but not by it. Both "through" and "by" connote medial causes,
                  > true enough; however, the word "by" deals more with a means or tool by
                  > which something is done.
                  .
                  Correct. Men are justified by means of Faith. That's what it means.
                  .
                  > So the idea is that God does not use faith as a *means or tool* of
                  > justification but rather does something else (which turns out to be
                  > his justifying someone more or less *in response* to something, namely
                  > faith).
                  .
                  Which idea is not according to Scripture.
                  .
                  >
                  > So in a way, it's probably "not both" as you say to Paul but rather
                  > through faith.
                  .
                  Then "in a way" is false because the Scriptures say it's both.


                  James Kirby
                • yusefii
                  [Second attempt to send this message.] You re right, James: passages like these do exist and I had almost completely forgotten about certain details of these
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 9, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    [Second attempt to send this message.]

                    You're right, James: passages like these do exist and I had almost completely forgotten about certain details of these passages (save for details that I have perhaps since conflated); passages such as these came to my attention in the course of dealing with Campbellites and baptismal regenerationism a number of years ago. For now, that there changes everything.


                    Still, there is a reason that we who speak Modern English would be loathe to say something on the order of *"Yeah, they killed him; and they killed him through stoning him to death" or *"I got to the city through train," *"I got to the city through taking a train." To be sure, the choice between the use of "by" and "through" in some cases may be motived by grammatical/conventional concerns as opposed to semantic concerns. However, the semantic constrast between the two words does stand out in other cases.

                    Those who take pains in theological discussions to say, "We're justified *through faith* and *by grace*": I'm not ready just yet to say they're either totally mistaken or in the process of making mountains of molehills. Perhaps (I don't know) they are cognizant of the kinds of passages you mention but hold certain heretofore unstated opinions concerning them; then again, maybe they really don't know or remember the passages and are mistaken on some point.

                    In any case, I'm sympathetic toward the general idea of taking a second look at the whole by/through/of/ek/dia/oblique-object/dative-case thing if, for example, one of Merriam-Webster's definitions of "by" is *through the agency or instrumentality of*, and if part of Ephesians 2:8 reads as "For by grace are ye saved through faith," and *if* grace is unmerited favor (i.e., unmerited approval, in this case)--does it make sense to suggest that grace serves as an *instrument* of God's saving someone as opposed to God's saving someone because of favor He already had for them?

                    That's all for now.
                    -Kwame
                    P.S. I did notice that the NIV rendering of Rom 5.1 was missing below. :)

                    --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, James <jamesjay@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > yusefii wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > If I'm not mistaken, James, the translation you were using was the KJV.
                    > >
                    > > -Kwame
                    > >
                    > > .
                    > Ro 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from
                    > the works of the law.
                    > Ro 5:1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God
                    > through our Lord Jesus Christ;
                    > Ga 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law
                    > but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus,
                    > that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of
                    > the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
                    > Ga 3:24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ,
                    > that we might be justified by faith. ASV
                    >
                    > Ro 3:28 Then we conclude a man to be justified by faith without works
                    > of law.
                    > Ro 5:1 Then being justified by faith, we have peace with God through
                    > our Lord Jesus Christ,
                    > Ga 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by works of law, but that
                    > it is through faith in Jesus Christ (we also believed in Christ Jesus,
                    > that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of law,
                    > because all flesh will not be justified by works of law).
                    > Ga 3:24 So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that
                    > we might be justified by faith.
                    > LITV
                    >
                    > Rom 3:28 Therefore, we maintain [that] a person is justified [or,
                    > declared righteous] by faith apart from works of [the] Law. ALT.
                    >
                    > Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without
                    > the works of the Law. MKJV
                    >
                    > Rom 3:28 For (46) we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart
                    > from works of the Law. NASB
                    >
                    > Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from
                    > observing the law. NIV
                    >
                    > Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart
                    > from the deeds of the law. NKJV
                    > .
                    > > Since the time of the KJV various words have of course taken on new
                    > > meanings and uses, whether in processes of specializiation or
                    > > generalization.
                    > .
                    > Irrelevant. All other versions use "by". There's no reason to believe
                    > the meaning of that word is changed.
                    > .
                    > > With that said, the preposition "by" apparently has taken on a more
                    > > nuanced meaning since the days of King James,
                    > .
                    > Your opinion... which you are entitled to.
                    > .
                    > > hence the common act of one's insisting that one is justified through
                    > > faith but not by it. Both "through" and "by" connote medial causes,
                    > > true enough; however, the word "by" deals more with a means or tool by
                    > > which something is done.
                    > .
                    > Correct. Men are justified by means of Faith. That's what it means.
                    > .
                    > > So the idea is that God does not use faith as a *means or tool* of
                    > > justification but rather does something else (which turns out to be
                    > > his justifying someone more or less *in response* to something, namely
                    > > faith).
                    > .
                    > Which idea is not according to Scripture.
                    > .
                    > >
                    > > So in a way, it's probably "not both" as you say to Paul but rather
                    > > through faith.
                    > .
                    > Then "in a way" is false because the Scriptures say it's both.
                    >
                    >
                    > James Kirby
                    >
                  • James
                    ... . Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, NIV James K----
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 9, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      yusefii wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > That's all for now.
                      > -Kwame
                      > P.S. I did notice that the NIV rendering of Rom 5.1 was missing below. :)
                      >
                      .
                      Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have
                      peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, NIV

                      James K----

                      >
                      > --- In apologetics@ yahoogroups. com
                      > <mailto:apologetics%40yahoogroups.com>, James <jamesjay@.. .> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > yusefii wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > If I'm not mistaken, James, the translation you were using was the
                      > KJV.
                      > > >
                      > > > -Kwame
                      > > >
                      > > > .
                      > > Ro 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from
                      > > the works of the law.
                      > > Ro 5:1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God
                      > > through our Lord Jesus Christ;
                      > > Ga 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law
                      > > but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus,
                      > > that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of
                      > > the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
                      > > Ga 3:24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ,
                      > > that we might be justified by faith. ASV
                      > >
                      > > Ro 3:28 Then we conclude a man to be justified by faith without works
                      > > of law.
                      > > Ro 5:1 Then being justified by faith, we have peace with God through
                      > > our Lord Jesus Christ,
                      > > Ga 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by works of law, but that
                      > > it is through faith in Jesus Christ (we also believed in Christ Jesus,
                      > > that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of law,
                      > > because all flesh will not be justified by works of law).
                      > > Ga 3:24 So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that
                      > > we might be justified by faith.
                      > > LITV
                      > >
                      > > Rom 3:28 Therefore, we maintain [that] a person is justified [or,
                      > > declared righteous] by faith apart from works of [the] Law. ALT.
                      > >
                      > > Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without
                      > > the works of the Law. MKJV
                      > >
                      > > Rom 3:28 For (46) we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart
                      > > from works of the Law. NASB
                      > >
                      > > Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from
                      > > observing the law. NIV
                      > >
                      > > Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart
                      > > from the deeds of the law. NKJV
                      > > .
                      > > > Since the time of the KJV various words have of course taken on new
                      > > > meanings and uses, whether in processes of specializiation or
                      > > > generalization.
                      > > .
                      > > Irrelevant. All other versions use "by". There's no reason to believe
                      > > the meaning of that word is changed.
                      > > .
                      > > > With that said, the preposition "by" apparently has taken on a more
                      > > > nuanced meaning since the days of King James,
                      > > .
                      > > Your opinion... which you are entitled to.
                      > > .
                      > > > hence the common act of one's insisting that one is justified through
                      > > > faith but not by it. Both "through" and "by" connote medial causes,
                      > > > true enough; however, the word "by" deals more with a means or
                      > tool by
                      > > > which something is done.
                      > > .
                      > > Correct. Men are justified by means of Faith. That's what it means.
                      > > .
                      > > > So the idea is that God does not use faith as a *means or tool* of
                      > > > justification but rather does something else (which turns out to be
                      > > > his justifying someone more or less *in response* to something,
                      > namely
                      > > > faith).
                      > > .
                      > > Which idea is not according to Scripture.
                      > > .
                      > > >
                      > > > So in a way, it's probably "not both" as you say to Paul but rather
                      > > > through faith.
                      > > .
                      > > Then "in a way" is false because the Scriptures say it's both.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > James Kirby
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                    • paul.charlwood
                      ... Right, I agree that the above verses do state that we are justified by faith, and that that meaning is maintained by all the translations you have quoted,
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 11, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        > Ro 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from
                        > the works of the law.
                        > Ro 5:1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God
                        > through our Lord Jesus Christ;
                        > Ga 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law
                        > but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus,
                        > that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of
                        > the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
                        > Ga 3:24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ,
                        > that we might be justified by faith. ASV

                        Right, I agree that the above verses do state that we are justified by faith, and that that meaning is maintained by all the translations you have quoted, BUT they do so in the context of comparing faith to works of the law (and, I believe, from a human perspective).

                        "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by GRACE you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by GRACE you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Eph 2 vs 4-10 NKJV (my emphases).

                        This I believe shows the situation from the Divine perspective but whether it does or not it is clear from this passage that regeneration occurs by God's gracious action. I also hold strongly that the gift referred to is faith (rather than salvation which is a direct act of God's gracious mercy to us in Christ). Why? Because while faith cannot be defined as a Work of the Law as referred to in the verses James has quoted, if faith is a mechanism by which salvation is attained then the haveing of faith and maintenance of faith becomes a work whereby we earn salvation. This to me is one of the fatal flaws in the Wesleyan/Arminian view of salvation.

                        Also, with reference to the original subject, and the criticism of my earlier post take a good look at what we were created and saved for. As I said the championing of sola fide has, at best, distracted the evangelical protestant church from what it should be doing. Works are desparately important and indeed in the widest sense works, or expressions of our faith and regenerate nature in the physical world, are the only way to show God's love and gospel to that world.
                      • yusefii
                        Paul wrote:
                        Message 11 of 12 , May 11, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Paul wrote:

                          <<[snip]

                          Also, with reference to the original subject, and the criticism of my earlier post take a good look at what we were created and saved for. As I said the championing of sola fide has, at best, distracted the evangelical protestant church from what it should be doing. Works are desparately important and indeed in the widest sense works, or expressions of our faith and regenerate nature in the physical world, are the only way to show God's love and gospel to that world.>>

                          Sadly, that seems to be the situation in life in general: people are incapable of properly juggling various tasks, ideas and nuances. Consequently, depending on which group of people you're dealing with, all warfare is unjustified, all capital punishment is unjustified, all Blacks are suffering, all Palestinians are innocent victims, all American soil was stolen from Indians and Mexicans, heaven sends no one to hell but rather sinners send themselves there, Christians must never offend unbelievers, the mention of the faith is scarce in Campbellite churches, etc. It's this horrible combination of both distraction (as you say), and a natural inclination toward exaggeration, and lackluster educational techniques on the part of the Christian intelligentsia.

                          And now that you've pointed out an adverse effect of the championing of sola fide, someone reading this will agree with what you've said; then he is going to go out to start preaching to his congregation or acquaintances about the importance of works in the lives of Christians. This preaching, in turn, will become corrupted by some of those listening to it and will ultimately lead to some form of legalism on some scale. And even then, the pendulum will probably eventually swing back in the other direction and precisely back to where we are right now. This is because man, despite however more intelligent than animals he may be, is a mental midget.

                          -Kwame
                        • paul.charlwood
                          ... I agree, sadly, but WE are only responsible for what we think and do and teach others. And I suppose in some part if we know they have misinterpreted what
                          Message 12 of 12 , May 13, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "yusefii" <yusefii@...> wrote:
                            > And now that you've pointed out an adverse effect of the championing of sola fide, someone reading this will agree with what you've said; then he is going to go out to start preaching to his congregation or acquaintances about the importance of works in the lives of Christians. This preaching, in turn, will become corrupted by some of those listening to it and will ultimately lead to some form of legalism on some scale. And even then, the pendulum will probably eventually swing back in the other direction and precisely back to where we are right now. This is because man, despite however more intelligent than animals he may be, is a mental midget.
                            >
                            > -Kwame
                            >
                            I agree, sadly, but WE are only responsible for what we think and do and teach others. And I suppose in some part if we know they have misinterpreted what we said and do not try to correct them. But we cannot be responsible for their actions, their understanding. We are all, after all, charged to test any teaching by comparing and contrasting it to scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This is both the joy and responsibility of exercising true Christian liberty. It is also why Reformed Churches talk about 'reformed and reforming' since all churches, like all the Christians who constitute them, are imperfect and lessons will be learned, and forgotten and relearned until the day of Christ's return.

                            Yours in Christ, Paul.
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.