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Re: Seeming Contradictions of Scripture

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  • yusefii
    Belatedly, there is no way no how that any scholars here can explain away the *obvious* contradictory pairs of biblical passages that you provide below. You
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 3, 2007
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      Belatedly, there is no way no how that any scholars here can explain
      away the *obvious* contradictory pairs of biblical passages that you
      provide below.

      You see, it is a proven and scientific fact that if ever there will
      be a time in this universe when someone errs, it will be the
      *religious* or *conservative* people who have erred, *not* the
      freethinking, enlightened people of today who are too perfect, too
      progressive, and too modern not to notice those really obvious
      contradictions found within the Bible.

      Again, there is no way to explain these contradictions away. Modern
      common sense, science, and a mere (and rudimentary) understanding of
      one's own modern dialect suffice to show us the backward thinking of
      the people of yesteryear.

      ...It doesn't matter that the Bible was written in an age when people
      were using mathematical and engineering feats to construct pyramids,
      to construct the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, to lay the
      groundwork for modern math, etc. No, those guys were primitive,
      religious nuts. We are smarter than they.

      ...It doesn't matter if Hebrew narrative discourse was demonstrably
      different than that of English. It also doesn't matter that--ya know-
      -there are these different biblical translations of the Bible, some
      of which attempt to correct errors of previous translations.
      Moreover, it doesn't matter that certain Hebrew verb phrases may be
      given to more than one meaning per context just as English preterite
      verbs sometimes are sloppily used instead of past perfect periphrases.

      ...It doesn't matter if you dare suggest that no one is stupid and
      forgetful enough to write in one spot "Thou shalt not kill" before he
      writes five hundred more words and contradicts himself by telling
      people to kill. No, initial appearances are everything, and if parts
      of the book of Exodus appear at first glance to contradict each
      other, this is all that matters in the war against backward,
      primitive, intolerant religious thought.

      ...Meanwhile, it doesn't matter that words have different meanings
      per context, at least not when it comes to biblical passages. Sure,
      it matters that "mouse" or "eye" have different meanings depending on
      whether one is talking about the Atlantic hurricane season or
      computer equipment. But if it's the Bible we're talking about, just
      assume that "tempt" as used in the KJV (!) always means *tempt* and
      proceed from there without further questions; for this is an
      acceptable course of action. While you're at it, ignore the passé
      rule that tells us that *context matters* and ignore the fact that
      the purview of someone's speech is often limited. No, in all those
      times when we say, "Gang's all here," we're talking about all Bloods,
      Crips, members of MS-13, etc.

      ...Meanwhile, various other things don't matter. For example, the
      demonstrably abbreviated style that Hebrew writers sometimes make
      with regard to genealogies: don't matter. I am a modern Western man
      and part of the modern Western world. Everybody does genealogies
      like I do. Everybody loves precision and exhaustive details like I
      do. In fact, everybody knows this too, just like everybody knows
      that the messages of the Bible were copied and received by us today
      just like the messages in that elementary school game of Telephone
      are passed along and corrupted.

      I am a modern, enlightened man. There is nothing that you can tell
      me that will explain away the *obvious* contradictions of the Bible.
      The lessons that I received in grade school and in my sociology
      courses in college make my education complete. And if you disagree,
      or if it takes you more than a few words to try to spin this story in
      a way that favors your backward, primitive beliefs, then you prove
      yourself a liar or a fool; after all, only liars and fools have to
      explain themselves.


      -Kwame
      /sarc
      P.S. Sad that no one's had anything to say about James 2. That
      passage is quite relevant to things recently in the news.

      --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Gill" <berean_joe@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Perhaps it would be fun for some of the bible students in here to
      see
      > the following list of seeming contradictions found in the pages of
      the
      > bible. I borrow this list from the posting of an agnostic on another
      > message board. For how many can you scholars give an explanation of
      why
      > there really is no contradiction?
      >
      > - Berean Joe
      >
      > Example 1:
      > And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and every thing
      > that creepeth upon the earth after its kind: and God said, "Let us
      > make man in our image, after our likeness"
      > Gen 1:25,26
      > (man made after the beasts)
      > And the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone;
      > I will make him an help meet for him." And out of the ground the
      LORD
      > God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and
      > brought them unto Adam ... but for Adam there was not found an help
      > meet for him.
      > Gen 2:18-20
      > (man made before the beasts)
      >
      > Example 2:
      > Thou shalt not kill
      > Exod 20:13
      > Thus sayeth the LORD God of Israel, "Put every man his sword by his
      > side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and
      > slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every
      > man his neighbour".
      > Exod 32:27
      >
      > Example 3:
      > "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of
      > anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."
      > Exod 20:4
      > "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt
      thou
      > make them."
      > Exodus 25:18
      >
      > Example 4:
      > "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among
      you,
      > of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . .
      > they shall be your bondmen forever."
      > Leviticus 25:45-46
      > "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break
      > every yoke."
      > Isaiah 58:6
      >
      > Example 5:
      > "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it;
      > I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
      > Ezekiel 24:14
      > . . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would
      do
      > unto them; and he did it not.
      > Jonah 3:10
      >
      > Example 6:
      > "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his
      > friend."
      > Ex 33:11
      > No man hath seen God at any time.
      > John 1:18
      >
      > Example 7:
      > And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham.
      > Gen 22:1
      > Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God
      > cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
      > James 1:13
      >
      > Example 8:
      > And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of SEVEN
      > HUNDRED chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand HORSEMEN, and
      > smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there.
      > 2 Sam 10:18
      > But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians
      > SEVEN THOUSAND men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand
      > FOOTMEN, and killed Shophach the captain of the host.
      > 1 Chron 19:18
      >
      > Example 9:
      > And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number
      Israel
      > 1 Chron 21:1
      > And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he
      > moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah"
      > 2 Sam 24:1
      >
      > Example 10:
      > Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of
      > her death.
      > 2 Sam 6:23
      > The five sons of Michel the daughter of Saul, whom she bare for
      > Adriel.
      > 2 Sam 21:8
      >
      > Example 11:
      > Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth
      > understanding.
      > Prov 3:13
      > For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge
      > increaseth sorrow.
      > Eccles 1:18
      >
      > Example 12:
      > The dead know not any thing, neither have they any more reward.
      > Eccles 9:5
      > These shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous
      > unto life eternal.
      > Matt 25:46
      >
      > Example 13:
      > So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN
      > YEARS of famine come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three
      > months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee?
      > II Samuel 24:13
      > So God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose
      > thee. Either THREE YEARS of famine or three months to be destryed
      > before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh
      > thee;
      > 1 Chron 21:12
      >
      > Example 14:
      > Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their
      fathers.
      > Isa 14:21
      > The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither
      shall
      > the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put
      > to death for his own sin.
      > Deut 24:16
      >
      > Example 15:
      > And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
      > 2 Kings 2:11
      > No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from
      > heaven, ... the Son of Man.
      > John 3:13
      >
      > Example 16:
      > Jesus .. the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
      > Luke 3:23
      > And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus.
      > Matt 1:16
      >
      > Example 17:
      > He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with
      > me scattereth abroad.
      > Matt 12:30
      > And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against
      > us is for us.
      > Luke 9:50
      >
      > Example 18:
      > Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no
      > murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
      > 1 John 3:15
      > If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and
      wife,
      > and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also,
      > he cannot be my disciple.
      > Luke 14:26
      >
      > Example 19:
      > In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see
      > your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
      > Matt 5:16
      > But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what
      > your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secert. Then
      > your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
      > Matt 6:3-4
      >
      > Example 20:
      > For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works.
      > Ephesians 2:8,9
      > "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith
      > only."
      > James 2:24
    • Jeff Scanlan
      Will someone please tell me, a newbie on this list, what is going on here? I cannot make any sense of what follows below. Jeff _____ From:
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 3, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Will someone please tell me, a newbie on this list, what is going on here?



        I cannot make any sense of what follows below.



        Jeff





        _____

        From: apologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:apologetics@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of yusefii
        Sent: Monday, 4 June 2007 5:02 AM
        To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Seeming Contradictions of Scripture



        Belatedly, there is no way no how that any scholars here can explain
        away the *obvious* contradictory pairs of biblical passages that you
        provide below.

        You see, it is a proven and scientific fact that if ever there will
        be a time in this universe when someone errs, it will be the
        *religious* or *conservative* people who have erred, *not* the
        freethinking, enlightened people of today who are too perfect, too
        progressive, and too modern not to notice those really obvious
        contradictions found within the Bible.

        Again, there is no way to explain these contradictions away. Modern
        common sense, science, and a mere (and rudimentary) understanding of
        one's own modern dialect suffice to show us the backward thinking of
        the people of yesteryear.

        ...It doesn't matter that the Bible was written in an age when people
        were using mathematical and engineering feats to construct pyramids,
        to construct the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, to lay the
        groundwork for modern math, etc. No, those guys were primitive,
        religious nuts. We are smarter than they.

        ...It doesn't matter if Hebrew narrative discourse was demonstrably
        different than that of English. It also doesn't matter that--ya know-
        -there are these different biblical translations of the Bible, some
        of which attempt to correct errors of previous translations.
        Moreover, it doesn't matter that certain Hebrew verb phrases may be
        given to more than one meaning per context just as English preterite
        verbs sometimes are sloppily used instead of past perfect periphrases.

        ...It doesn't matter if you dare suggest that no one is stupid and
        forgetful enough to write in one spot "Thou shalt not kill" before he
        writes five hundred more words and contradicts himself by telling
        people to kill. No, initial appearances are everything, and if parts
        of the book of Exodus appear at first glance to contradict each
        other, this is all that matters in the war against backward,
        primitive, intolerant religious thought.

        ...Meanwhile, it doesn't matter that words have different meanings
        per context, at least not when it comes to biblical passages. Sure,
        it matters that "mouse" or "eye" have different meanings depending on
        whether one is talking about the Atlantic hurricane season or
        computer equipment. But if it's the Bible we're talking about, just
        assume that "tempt" as used in the KJV (!) always means *tempt* and
        proceed from there without further questions; for this is an
        acceptable course of action. While you're at it, ignore the passé
        rule that tells us that *context matters* and ignore the fact that
        the purview of someone's speech is often limited. No, in all those
        times when we say, "Gang's all here," we're talking about all Bloods,
        Crips, members of MS-13, etc.

        ...Meanwhile, various other things don't matter. For example, the
        demonstrably abbreviated style that Hebrew writers sometimes make
        with regard to genealogies: don't matter. I am a modern Western man
        and part of the modern Western world. Everybody does genealogies
        like I do. Everybody loves precision and exhaustive details like I
        do. In fact, everybody knows this too, just like everybody knows
        that the messages of the Bible were copied and received by us today
        just like the messages in that elementary school game of Telephone
        are passed along and corrupted.

        I am a modern, enlightened man. There is nothing that you can tell
        me that will explain away the *obvious* contradictions of the Bible.
        The lessons that I received in grade school and in my sociology
        courses in college make my education complete. And if you disagree,
        or if it takes you more than a few words to try to spin this story in
        a way that favors your backward, primitive beliefs, then you prove
        yourself a liar or a fool; after all, only liars and fools have to
        explain themselves.

        -Kwame
        /sarc
        P.S. Sad that no one's had anything to say about James 2. That
        passage is quite relevant to things recently in the news.

        --- In apologetics@ <mailto:apologetics%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
        "Joe Gill" <berean_joe@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Perhaps it would be fun for some of the bible students in here to
        see
        > the following list of seeming contradictions found in the pages of
        the
        > bible. I borrow this list from the posting of an agnostic on another
        > message board. For how many can you scholars give an explanation of
        why
        > there really is no contradiction?
        >
        > - Berean Joe
        >
        > Example 1:
        > And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and every thing
        > that creepeth upon the earth after its kind: and God said, "Let us
        > make man in our image, after our likeness"
        > Gen 1:25,26
        > (man made after the beasts)
        > And the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone;
        > I will make him an help meet for him." And out of the ground the
        LORD
        > God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and
        > brought them unto Adam ... but for Adam there was not found an help
        > meet for him.
        > Gen 2:18-20
        > (man made before the beasts)
        >
        > Example 2:
        > Thou shalt not kill
        > Exod 20:13
        > Thus sayeth the LORD God of Israel, "Put every man his sword by his
        > side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and
        > slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every
        > man his neighbour".
        > Exod 32:27
        >
        > Example 3:
        > "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of
        > anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."
        > Exod 20:4
        > "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt
        thou
        > make them."
        > Exodus 25:18
        >
        > Example 4:
        > "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among
        you,
        > of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . .
        > they shall be your bondmen forever."
        > Leviticus 25:45-46
        > "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break
        > every yoke."
        > Isaiah 58:6
        >
        > Example 5:
        > "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it;
        > I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
        > Ezekiel 24:14
        > . . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would
        do
        > unto them; and he did it not.
        > Jonah 3:10
        >
        > Example 6:
        > "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his
        > friend."
        > Ex 33:11
        > No man hath seen God at any time.
        > John 1:18
        >
        > Example 7:
        > And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham.
        > Gen 22:1
        > Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God
        > cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
        > James 1:13
        >
        > Example 8:
        > And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of SEVEN
        > HUNDRED chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand HORSEMEN, and
        > smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there.
        > 2 Sam 10:18
        > But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians
        > SEVEN THOUSAND men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand
        > FOOTMEN, and killed Shophach the captain of the host.
        > 1 Chron 19:18
        >
        > Example 9:
        > And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number
        Israel
        > 1 Chron 21:1
        > And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he
        > moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah"
        > 2 Sam 24:1
        >
        > Example 10:
        > Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of
        > her death.
        > 2 Sam 6:23
        > The five sons of Michel the daughter of Saul, whom she bare for
        > Adriel.
        > 2 Sam 21:8
        >
        > Example 11:
        > Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth
        > understanding.
        > Prov 3:13
        > For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge
        > increaseth sorrow.
        > Eccles 1:18
        >
        > Example 12:
        > The dead know not any thing, neither have they any more reward.
        > Eccles 9:5
        > These shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous
        > unto life eternal.
        > Matt 25:46
        >
        > Example 13:
        > So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN
        > YEARS of famine come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three
        > months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee?
        > II Samuel 24:13
        > So God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose
        > thee. Either THREE YEARS of famine or three months to be destryed
        > before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh
        > thee;
        > 1 Chron 21:12
        >
        > Example 14:
        > Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their
        fathers.
        > Isa 14:21
        > The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither
        shall
        > the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put
        > to death for his own sin.
        > Deut 24:16
        >
        > Example 15:
        > And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
        > 2 Kings 2:11
        > No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from
        > heaven, ... the Son of Man.
        > John 3:13
        >
        > Example 16:
        > Jesus .. the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
        > Luke 3:23
        > And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus.
        > Matt 1:16
        >
        > Example 17:
        > He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with
        > me scattereth abroad.
        > Matt 12:30
        > And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against
        > us is for us.
        > Luke 9:50
        >
        > Example 18:
        > Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no
        > murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
        > 1 John 3:15
        > If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and
        wife,
        > and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also,
        > he cannot be my disciple.
        > Luke 14:26
        >
        > Example 19:
        > In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see
        > your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
        > Matt 5:16
        > But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what
        > your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secert. Then
        > your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
        > Matt 6:3-4
        >
        > Example 20:
        > For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works.
        > Ephesians 2:8,9
        > "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith
        > only."
        > James 2:24





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • IW
        ... Hash: SHA1 Tanggal Mon, 4 Jun 2007 06:58:37 +1000 Penulis Jeff Scanlan menulis email dengan judul RE: [apologetics and
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 3, 2007
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          -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
          Hash: SHA1

          Tanggal Mon, 4 Jun 2007 06:58:37 +1000 Penulis "Jeff Scanlan"
          <jscanlan@...> menulis email dengan judul RE: [apologetics
          and theology] Re: Seeming Contradictions of Scripture seperti tertera
          di bawah ini:

          >Will someone please tell me, a newbie on this list, what is going on
          >here?
          >
          >
          >
          >I cannot make any sense of what follows below.
          >
          >

          The email you are commenting on was a response to an earlier email
          which was affixed to the bottom of the email which you commented on. I
          deleted both for the purpose of brevity.

          I am not entirely sure what you are confused about but maybe you missed
          the original email and did not see it again when yusefii attached it at
          the bottom.

          IW
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          Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
          Comment: http://keyserver.veridis.com:11371/

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        • Rob Lundberg
          Jeff, In the discpline of Christian apologetics, you will often run into people that try to debunk the Bible as full of holes, errors or contradictions. Be
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 4, 2007
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            Jeff,

            In the discpline of Christian apologetics, you will often run into people that try to debunk the Bible as full of holes, errors or contradictions. Be rest assured there are none of these if the Bible is approached appropriately.

            Groups like this one, draw all kinds of folks, followers of Christ and non, members of world religions and even cult groups from time to time.

            Kwame is not telling us anything new. Most of us have seen stuff like this before. The examples that Berean Joe gave are good hermeneutical exercises to sharpen our skills. As long as you take a passage in its context there are no errors or contradictions in the Bible.

            I think you will see what I mean by looking at the pairs below. Not to worry, "the Scriptures cannot be broken" (John 10:35).

            Blessings,



            Jeff Scanlan <jscanlan@...> wrote:
            Will someone please tell me, a newbie on this list, what is going on here?

            I cannot make any sense of what follows below.

            Jeff

            _____

            From: apologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:apologetics@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of yusefii
            Sent: Monday, 4 June 2007 5:02 AM
            To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Seeming Contradictions of Scripture

            Belatedly, there is no way no how that any scholars here can explain
            away the *obvious* contradictory pairs of biblical passages that you
            provide below.

            You see, it is a proven and scientific fact that if ever there will
            be a time in this universe when someone errs, it will be the
            *religious* or *conservative* people who have erred, *not* the
            freethinking, enlightened people of today who are too perfect, too
            progressive, and too modern not to notice those really obvious
            contradictions found within the Bible.

            Again, there is no way to explain these contradictions away. Modern
            common sense, science, and a mere (and rudimentary) understanding of
            one's own modern dialect suffice to show us the backward thinking of
            the people of yesteryear.

            ...It doesn't matter that the Bible was written in an age when people
            were using mathematical and engineering feats to construct pyramids,
            to construct the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, to lay the
            groundwork for modern math, etc. No, those guys were primitive,
            religious nuts. We are smarter than they.

            ...It doesn't matter if Hebrew narrative discourse was demonstrably
            different than that of English. It also doesn't matter that--ya know-
            -there are these different biblical translations of the Bible, some
            of which attempt to correct errors of previous translations.
            Moreover, it doesn't matter that certain Hebrew verb phrases may be
            given to more than one meaning per context just as English preterite
            verbs sometimes are sloppily used instead of past perfect periphrases.

            ...It doesn't matter if you dare suggest that no one is stupid and
            forgetful enough to write in one spot "Thou shalt not kill" before he
            writes five hundred more words and contradicts himself by telling
            people to kill. No, initial appearances are everything, and if parts
            of the book of Exodus appear at first glance to contradict each
            other, this is all that matters in the war against backward,
            primitive, intolerant religious thought.

            ...Meanwhile, it doesn't matter that words have different meanings
            per context, at least not when it comes to biblical passages. Sure,
            it matters that "mouse" or "eye" have different meanings depending on
            whether one is talking about the Atlantic hurricane season or
            computer equipment. But if it's the Bible we're talking about, just
            assume that "tempt" as used in the KJV (!) always means *tempt* and
            proceed from there without further questions; for this is an
            acceptable course of action. While you're at it, ignore the passé
            rule that tells us that *context matters* and ignore the fact that
            the purview of someone's speech is often limited. No, in all those
            times when we say, "Gang's all here," we're talking about all Bloods,
            Crips, members of MS-13, etc.

            ...Meanwhile, various other things don't matter. For example, the
            demonstrably abbreviated style that Hebrew writers sometimes make
            with regard to genealogies: don't matter. I am a modern Western man
            and part of the modern Western world. Everybody does genealogies
            like I do. Everybody loves precision and exhaustive details like I
            do. In fact, everybody knows this too, just like everybody knows
            that the messages of the Bible were copied and received by us today
            just like the messages in that elementary school game of Telephone
            are passed along and corrupted.

            I am a modern, enlightened man. There is nothing that you can tell
            me that will explain away the *obvious* contradictions of the Bible.
            The lessons that I received in grade school and in my sociology
            courses in college make my education complete. And if you disagree,
            or if it takes you more than a few words to try to spin this story in
            a way that favors your backward, primitive beliefs, then you prove
            yourself a liar or a fool; after all, only liars and fools have to
            explain themselves.

            -Kwame
            /sarc
            P.S. Sad that no one's had anything to say about James 2. That
            passage is quite relevant to things recently in the news.

            --- In apologetics@ <mailto:apologetics%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
            "Joe Gill" <berean_joe@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Perhaps it would be fun for some of the bible students in here to
            see
            > the following list of seeming contradictions found in the pages of
            the
            > bible. I borrow this list from the posting of an agnostic on another
            > message board. For how many can you scholars give an explanation of
            why
            > there really is no contradiction?
            >
            > - Berean Joe
            >
            > Example 1:
            > And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and every thing
            > that creepeth upon the earth after its kind: and God said, "Let us
            > make man in our image, after our likeness"
            > Gen 1:25,26
            > (man made after the beasts)
            > And the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone;
            > I will make him an help meet for him." And out of the ground the
            LORD
            > God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and
            > brought them unto Adam ... but for Adam there was not found an help
            > meet for him.
            > Gen 2:18-20
            > (man made before the beasts)
            >
            > Example 2:
            > Thou shalt not kill
            > Exod 20:13
            > Thus sayeth the LORD God of Israel, "Put every man his sword by his
            > side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and
            > slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every
            > man his neighbour".
            > Exod 32:27
            >
            > Example 3:
            > "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of
            > anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."
            > Exod 20:4
            > "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt
            thou
            > make them."
            > Exodus 25:18
            >
            > Example 4:
            > "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among
            you,
            > of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . .
            > they shall be your bondmen forever."
            > Leviticus 25:45-46
            > "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break
            > every yoke."
            > Isaiah 58:6
            >
            > Example 5:
            > "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it;
            > I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
            > Ezekiel 24:14
            > . . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would
            do
            > unto them; and he did it not.
            > Jonah 3:10
            >
            > Example 6:
            > "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his
            > friend."
            > Ex 33:11
            > No man hath seen God at any time.
            > John 1:18
            >
            > Example 7:
            > And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham.
            > Gen 22:1
            > Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God
            > cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
            > James 1:13
            >
            > Example 8:
            > And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of SEVEN
            > HUNDRED chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand HORSEMEN, and
            > smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there.
            > 2 Sam 10:18
            > But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians
            > SEVEN THOUSAND men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand
            > FOOTMEN, and killed Shophach the captain of the host.
            > 1 Chron 19:18
            >
            > Example 9:
            > And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number
            Israel
            > 1 Chron 21:1
            > And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he
            > moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah"
            > 2 Sam 24:1
            >
            > Example 10:
            > Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of
            > her death.
            > 2 Sam 6:23
            > The five sons of Michel the daughter of Saul, whom she bare for
            > Adriel.
            > 2 Sam 21:8
            >
            > Example 11:
            > Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth
            > understanding.
            > Prov 3:13
            > For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge
            > increaseth sorrow.
            > Eccles 1:18
            >
            > Example 12:
            > The dead know not any thing, neither have they any more reward.
            > Eccles 9:5
            > These shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous
            > unto life eternal.
            > Matt 25:46
            >
            > Example 13:
            > So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN
            > YEARS of famine come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three
            > months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee?
            > II Samuel 24:13
            > So God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose
            > thee. Either THREE YEARS of famine or three months to be destryed
            > before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh
            > thee;
            > 1 Chron 21:12
            >
            > Example 14:
            > Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their
            fathers.
            > Isa 14:21
            > The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither
            shall
            > the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put
            > to death for his own sin.
            > Deut 24:16
            >
            > Example 15:
            > And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
            > 2 Kings 2:11
            > No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from
            > heaven, ... the Son of Man.
            > John 3:13
            >
            > Example 16:
            > Jesus .. the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
            > Luke 3:23
            > And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus.
            > Matt 1:16
            >
            > Example 17:
            > He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with
            > me scattereth abroad.
            > Matt 12:30
            > And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against
            > us is for us.
            > Luke 9:50
            >
            > Example 18:
            > Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no
            > murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
            > 1 John 3:15
            > If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and
            wife,
            > and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also,
            > he cannot be my disciple.
            > Luke 14:26
            >
            > Example 19:
            > In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see
            > your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
            > Matt 5:16
            > But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what
            > your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secert. Then
            > your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
            > Matt 6:3-4
            >
            > Example 20:
            > For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works.
            > Ephesians 2:8,9
            > "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith
            > only."
            > James 2:24

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            Rob Lundberg
            Phone: 540.424.2305
            Website: http://roblundberg.tripod.com
            Ministry: http://reasonablefaith.bravehost.com
            Blog: http://roblundberg.blogspot.com
            Equipping ambassadors for Christ with the biblical world view


            ---------------------------------
            We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
            (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jeff Scanlan
            To Rob and IW, Thanks for clarifying things. From a re read of the emails I think that I get what he was trying to say. It is probable that I was just not
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 4, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              To Rob and IW,



              Thanks for clarifying things. From a re read of the emails I think that I
              get what he was trying to say. It is probable that I was just not expecting
              this sort of argument and approach so soon after joining the discussion
              list.



              I had never bothered about apologetics for many years because it seemed that
              no one was particularly interested in the churches that I attended. Then my
              son grew up and espoused atheism with the result that I realized that I
              should have given more consideration than I had to this area of study.



              I hope that in the exchanges here I can learn more on this topic. I have
              been visiting the following websites:



              www.bethinking.org <http://www.bethinking.org/>



              www.reasons.org <http://www.reasons.org/>



              and have found that they have some good material.



              Can anyone suggest any others?



              Thanks and God bless,

              Jeff





              _____

              From: apologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:apologetics@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Rob Lundberg
              Sent: Monday, 4 June 2007 9:06 PM
              To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [apologetics and theology] Re: Seeming Contradictions of
              Scripture



              Jeff,

              In the discpline of Christian apologetics, you will often run into people
              that try to debunk the Bible as full of holes, errors or contradictions. Be
              rest assured there are none of these if the Bible is approached
              appropriately.

              Groups like this one, draw all kinds of folks, followers of Christ and non,
              members of world religions and even cult groups from time to time.

              Kwame is not telling us anything new. Most of us have seen stuff like this
              before. The examples that Berean Joe gave are good hermeneutical exercises
              to sharpen our skills. As long as you take a passage in its context there
              are no errors or contradictions in the Bible.

              I think you will see what I mean by looking at the pairs below. Not to
              worry, "the Scriptures cannot be broken" (John 10:35).

              Blessings,

              Jeff Scanlan <jscanlan@bigpond. <mailto:jscanlan%40bigpond.net.au> net.au>
              wrote:
              Will someone please tell me, a newbie on this list, what is going on here?

              I cannot make any sense of what follows below.

              Jeff

              _____

              From: apologetics@ <mailto:apologetics%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:apologetics@ <mailto:apologetics%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
              On
              Behalf Of yusefii
              Sent: Monday, 4 June 2007 5:02 AM
              To: apologetics@ <mailto:apologetics%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Seeming Contradictions of Scripture

              Belatedly, there is no way no how that any scholars here can explain
              away the *obvious* contradictory pairs of biblical passages that you
              provide below.

              You see, it is a proven and scientific fact that if ever there will
              be a time in this universe when someone errs, it will be the
              *religious* or *conservative* people who have erred, *not* the
              freethinking, enlightened people of today who are too perfect, too
              progressive, and too modern not to notice those really obvious
              contradictions found within the Bible.

              Again, there is no way to explain these contradictions away. Modern
              common sense, science, and a mere (and rudimentary) understanding of
              one's own modern dialect suffice to show us the backward thinking of
              the people of yesteryear.

              ...It doesn't matter that the Bible was written in an age when people
              were using mathematical and engineering feats to construct pyramids,
              to construct the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, to lay the
              groundwork for modern math, etc. No, those guys were primitive,
              religious nuts. We are smarter than they.

              ...It doesn't matter if Hebrew narrative discourse was demonstrably
              different than that of English. It also doesn't matter that--ya know-
              -there are these different biblical translations of the Bible, some
              of which attempt to correct errors of previous translations.
              Moreover, it doesn't matter that certain Hebrew verb phrases may be
              given to more than one meaning per context just as English preterite
              verbs sometimes are sloppily used instead of past perfect periphrases.

              ...It doesn't matter if you dare suggest that no one is stupid and
              forgetful enough to write in one spot "Thou shalt not kill" before he
              writes five hundred more words and contradicts himself by telling
              people to kill. No, initial appearances are everything, and if parts
              of the book of Exodus appear at first glance to contradict each
              other, this is all that matters in the war against backward,
              primitive, intolerant religious thought.

              ...Meanwhile, it doesn't matter that words have different meanings
              per context, at least not when it comes to biblical passages. Sure,
              it matters that "mouse" or "eye" have different meanings depending on
              whether one is talking about the Atlantic hurricane season or
              computer equipment. But if it's the Bible we're talking about, just
              assume that "tempt" as used in the KJV (!) always means *tempt* and
              proceed from there without further questions; for this is an
              acceptable course of action. While you're at it, ignore the passé
              rule that tells us that *context matters* and ignore the fact that
              the purview of someone's speech is often limited. No, in all those
              times when we say, "Gang's all here," we're talking about all Bloods,
              Crips, members of MS-13, etc.

              ...Meanwhile, various other things don't matter. For example, the
              demonstrably abbreviated style that Hebrew writers sometimes make
              with regard to genealogies: don't matter. I am a modern Western man
              and part of the modern Western world. Everybody does genealogies
              like I do. Everybody loves precision and exhaustive details like I
              do. In fact, everybody knows this too, just like everybody knows
              that the messages of the Bible were copied and received by us today
              just like the messages in that elementary school game of Telephone
              are passed along and corrupted.

              I am a modern, enlightened man. There is nothing that you can tell
              me that will explain away the *obvious* contradictions of the Bible.
              The lessons that I received in grade school and in my sociology
              courses in college make my education complete. And if you disagree,
              or if it takes you more than a few words to try to spin this story in
              a way that favors your backward, primitive beliefs, then you prove
              yourself a liar or a fool; after all, only liars and fools have to
              explain themselves.

              -Kwame
              /sarc
              P.S. Sad that no one's had anything to say about James 2. That
              passage is quite relevant to things recently in the news.

              --- In apologetics@ <mailto:apologetics%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
              "Joe Gill" <berean_joe@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Perhaps it would be fun for some of the bible students in here to
              see
              > the following list of seeming contradictions found in the pages of
              the
              > bible. I borrow this list from the posting of an agnostic on another
              > message board. For how many can you scholars give an explanation of
              why
              > there really is no contradiction?
              >
              > - Berean Joe
              >
              > Example 1:
              > And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and every thing
              > that creepeth upon the earth after its kind: and God said, "Let us
              > make man in our image, after our likeness"
              > Gen 1:25,26
              > (man made after the beasts)
              > And the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone;
              > I will make him an help meet for him." And out of the ground the
              LORD
              > God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and
              > brought them unto Adam ... but for Adam there was not found an help
              > meet for him.
              > Gen 2:18-20
              > (man made before the beasts)
              >
              > Example 2:
              > Thou shalt not kill
              > Exod 20:13
              > Thus sayeth the LORD God of Israel, "Put every man his sword by his
              > side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and
              > slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every
              > man his neighbour".
              > Exod 32:27
              >
              > Example 3:
              > "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of
              > anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."
              > Exod 20:4
              > "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt
              thou
              > make them."
              > Exodus 25:18
              >
              > Example 4:
              > "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among
              you,
              > of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . .
              > they shall be your bondmen forever."
              > Leviticus 25:45-46
              > "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break
              > every yoke."
              > Isaiah 58:6
              >
              > Example 5:
              > "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it;
              > I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
              > Ezekiel 24:14
              > . . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would
              do
              > unto them; and he did it not.
              > Jonah 3:10
              >
              > Example 6:
              > "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his
              > friend."
              > Ex 33:11
              > No man hath seen God at any time.
              > John 1:18
              >
              > Example 7:
              > And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham.
              > Gen 22:1
              > Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God
              > cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
              > James 1:13
              >
              > Example 8:
              > And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of SEVEN
              > HUNDRED chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand HORSEMEN, and
              > smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there.
              > 2 Sam 10:18
              > But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians
              > SEVEN THOUSAND men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand
              > FOOTMEN, and killed Shophach the captain of the host.
              > 1 Chron 19:18
              >
              > Example 9:
              > And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number
              Israel
              > 1 Chron 21:1
              > And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he
              > moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah"
              > 2 Sam 24:1
              >
              > Example 10:
              > Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of
              > her death.
              > 2 Sam 6:23
              > The five sons of Michel the daughter of Saul, whom she bare for
              > Adriel.
              > 2 Sam 21:8
              >
              > Example 11:
              > Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth
              > understanding.
              > Prov 3:13
              > For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge
              > increaseth sorrow.
              > Eccles 1:18
              >
              > Example 12:
              > The dead know not any thing, neither have they any more reward.
              > Eccles 9:5
              > These shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous
              > unto life eternal.
              > Matt 25:46
              >
              > Example 13:
              > So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN
              > YEARS of famine come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three
              > months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee?
              > II Samuel 24:13
              > So God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose
              > thee. Either THREE YEARS of famine or three months to be destryed
              > before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh
              > thee;
              > 1 Chron 21:12
              >
              > Example 14:
              > Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their
              fathers.
              > Isa 14:21
              > The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither
              shall
              > the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put
              > to death for his own sin.
              > Deut 24:16
              >
              > Example 15:
              > And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
              > 2 Kings 2:11
              > No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from
              > heaven, ... the Son of Man.
              > John 3:13
              >
              > Example 16:
              > Jesus .. the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
              > Luke 3:23
              > And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus.
              > Matt 1:16
              >
              > Example 17:
              > He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with
              > me scattereth abroad.
              > Matt 12:30
              > And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against
              > us is for us.
              > Luke 9:50
              >
              > Example 18:
              > Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no
              > murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
              > 1 John 3:15
              > If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and
              wife,
              > and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also,
              > he cannot be my disciple.
              > Luke 14:26
              >
              > Example 19:
              > In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see
              > your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
              > Matt 5:16
              > But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what
              > your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secert. Then
              > your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
              > Matt 6:3-4
              >
              > Example 20:
              > For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works.
              > Ephesians 2:8,9
              > "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith
              > only."
              > James 2:24

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              Rob Lundberg
              Phone: 540.424.2305
              Website: http://roblundberg. <http://roblundberg.tripod.com> tripod.com
              Ministry: http://reasonablefa <http://reasonablefaith.bravehost.com>
              ith.bravehost.com
              Blog: http://roblundberg. <http://roblundberg.blogspot.com> blogspot.com
              Equipping ambassadors for Christ with the biblical world view

              ---------------------------------
              We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
              (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • IW
              ... Hash: SHA1 Tanggal Mon, 4 Jun 2007 21:23:47 +1000 Penulis Jeff Scanlan menulis email dengan judul RE: [apologetics and
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 4, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
                Hash: SHA1

                Tanggal Mon, 4 Jun 2007 21:23:47 +1000 Penulis "Jeff Scanlan"
                <jscanlan@...> menulis email dengan judul RE: [apologetics
                and theology] Re: Seeming Contradictions of Scripture seperti tertera
                di bawah ini:

                >Thanks for clarifying things. F

                U r welcome.

                Then my son grew up and espoused atheism with the result
                >that I realized that I should have given more consideration than I had
                >to this area of study.

                I have always enjoyed the writings of CS Lewis and Ravi Zacharias. I
                hope your son finds his way back. Personally I consider atheism a form
                of intellectual cowardice as it is the most dishonest of beliefs.

                Put differently I can understand people differing in religious beliefs
                but never truly understand the athiest.

                GBU

                IW
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              • Jeff Scanlan
                Okay. But why do you see it like that, viz. as intellectual cowardice? Just wondering. God bless, Jeff _____ From: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 4, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Okay. But why do you see it like that, viz. as intellectual cowardice?



                  Just wondering.



                  God bless,

                  Jeff







                  _____

                  From: apologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:apologetics@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of IW
                  Sent: Tuesday, 5 June 2007 7:19 AM
                  To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Re: Seeming Contradictions of
                  Scripture



                  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
                  Hash: SHA1

                  Tanggal Mon, 4 Jun 2007 21:23:47 +1000 Penulis "Jeff Scanlan"
                  <jscanlan@bigpond. <mailto:jscanlan%40bigpond.net.au> net.au> menulis email
                  dengan judul RE: [apologetics
                  and theology] Re: Seeming Contradictions of Scripture seperti tertera
                  di bawah ini:

                  >Thanks for clarifying things. F

                  U r welcome.

                  Then my son grew up and espoused atheism with the result
                  >that I realized that I should have given more consideration than I had
                  >to this area of study.

                  I have always enjoyed the writings of CS Lewis and Ravi Zacharias. I
                  hope your son finds his way back. Personally I consider atheism a form
                  of intellectual cowardice as it is the most dishonest of beliefs.

                  Put differently I can understand people differing in religious beliefs
                  but never truly understand the athiest.

                  GBU

                  IW
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                • IW
                  ... Hash: SHA1 Tanggal Tue, 5 Jun 2007 07:43:43 +1000 Penulis Jeff Scanlan menulis email dengan judul RE: [apologetics and
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jun 4, 2007
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                    Tanggal Tue, 5 Jun 2007 07:43:43 +1000 Penulis "Jeff Scanlan"
                    <jscanlan@...> menulis email dengan judul RE: [apologetics
                    and theology] Re: Seeming Contradictions of Scripture seperti tertera
                    di bawah ini:

                    >Okay. But why do you see it like that, viz. as intellectual cowardice?


                    Let me put in a clarification first. I should say that I do not think
                    ALL atheists fit this description. I have met a couple atheists of fine
                    intellect whose position, while disagreeable, is well argued.I ahve
                    also read some whose arguments are quite good.

                    Howver, most atheists I have met are (like many religious folk)
                    followers of what is blowing in the wind - iow, it is not truly their
                    own well thought out belief. Further, are you familiar with the
                    expression, (Dating from ww2 i believe) ¨There are no atheists in
                    foxholes?¨ ?

                    This is the classic description of so many atheists. When death or
                    violence suddenly looms they call out to a god. There was a famous
                    journalist atheist (David somethign i think? Cannot remember) who wrote
                    about an experience where a bomb went off near him and he screamed out
                    to god to save him. When the dust and debris settled and he was still
                    alive he chastised himself for his weakness and vowed never again to
                    call on a non-existent god. This is the crux- that when push comes to
                    shove some animal instinct in us calls out to a creator, an overseer, a
                    being above us. Why? Why do all humans, regardless of creed, race and
                    religion have this deep instinctive need? yes, I have heard arguments
                    that talk about evolutionary needs as well as arguments claiming it is a
                    problem that can be recitified through education.

                    To deny that is to flee the truth. At least other religions acknowledge
                    this reality.

                    A few days ago an atheist friend said to me,
                    ¨Why do Christians after praying for something good (a sick child to be
                    healed, a job to be found etc) and something bad instead happens - not
                    blame God - but if the prayer is answered then we praise God and
                    ascribe it to him? If it goes well it is God but if it goes belly up we
                    say it is not His fault?¨

                    I replied that this was a valid question, but he was forgetting the
                    flip side. The amount of non-believers (and atheists) i know who take
                    all the credit for their personal successes but as soon as things go
                    bad they start blaming god (who, btw, did not exist 10 minutes ago.)
                    There is something fundamental in human nature that calls out to this
                    god.

                    The other agrument I hear all the time runs something along the lines
                    that god does not exist because of (or look at) the evil in the world.
                    This is a favourite of some atheists (but not usually the real thinkers)
                    but is hugely problematic.

                    First of all, if God does not exist then the question of evil is a
                    naturalistic issue and has nothing whatsoever to do with God´s
                    existence.
                    Argument: God does not exist. There is too much evil in the
                    world so God must not exist. !?!?!?!?!? If there is no god he can
                    hardly be blamed for evil now can he? Now if god DOES exist and allowed
                    evil, well then he cannot be argued to not exist because he allowed
                    evil. The argument goes nowhere and is totally nonsensical.

                    The second problem is that it assumes that God (should he exist) is
                    Good and actually cares to do soemthing about evil. While this may in
                    fact be in line witH Christian belief it is hardly a philosophical
                    known or guarentee.

                    And the third problem relates back to the first: That is, what is evil
                    and what is good? Why should a God be good? Why should a God do
                    something about evil? What is evil? Why is evil something to be
                    avoided? Without God evil remains an issue outside the realms of true
                    morality. It cannot be globally defined without call to a global
                    definition. Yes, I have seen arguments to answer this but none can
                    provide an explanation for that deep ¨I know when I have been treated
                    unfairly¨ that is found across the world and cultures.

                    Thus I see many atheists (not all by any stretch) as intellectual
                    cowards as they flee their innermost instincts, call on god when they
                    feel threatened, blame him when things go wrong and try to use his none
                    existence (in allowing evil) to prove his none-existence.

                    While I myself sometimes wonder if this God-belief is not just some
                    grand self delusion at the end of the day there is something hard wired
                    into us to that makes us focus on god.

                    IW





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                  • yusefii
                    ... wrote:
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jun 6, 2007
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                      --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, Rob Lundberg <roblundberg2000@...>
                      wrote:

                      <<Kwame is not telling us anything new. Most of us have seen stuff
                      like this before. The examples that Berean Joe gave are good
                      hermeneutical exercises to sharpen our skills. As long as you take a
                      passage in its context there are no errors or contradictions in the
                      Bible. >>

                      Still I'm a little uneasy about this "in its context" part. Any liar
                      in the world could tell two conflicting stories, could later be caught
                      lying, and could then go on to try to salvage his reputation by
                      claiming that his words were taken out of context.

                      We all agree that context is crucial. Hopefully, however, someone on
                      this list or in this forum will later have something to say about *how*
                      context demonstrates that the Bible doesn't contradict itself in
                      certain ways.

                      After all, 60% of the people out there who are claiming that there are
                      these 1,515 "obvious contradictions" in the Bible really ought to shut
                      up if you just remind them that it behooves them in the first place not
                      to wrest a Scripture from its context and not to forget the general
                      charitable principle of giving a person (such as a biblical author) the
                      benefit of the doubt. The other 40% though--they already know and
                      acknowledge that context matters; they just think that the context of
                      passages such as Berean Joe's passages do not honestly explain the
                      supposed contradictions away.

                      -Kwame
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