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Re: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl, Part 3

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  • Darryl Ward
    Dear Kwame God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture requires us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply take words literallyoff
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 1, 2006
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      Dear Kwame

      God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture requires us to
      use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply take words literallyoff a
      page without considering their historical context or our presuppositions
      that affect our hermenutics.

      My last word on state-sanctioned murder is that Jesus frequently was at odds
      with tehauthorities because he put compassion ahead strict interpreation of
      the law.


      5So the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, 'Why do your disciples not live
      according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?' 6He
      said to them, 'Isaiah prophesied rightly about you hypocrites, as it is
      written,
      "This people honours me with their lips,
      but their hearts are far from me;
      7in vain do they worship me,
      teaching human precepts as doctrines."
      8You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human tradition.' (Mark
      7:5-8).



      Kind regards

      Darryl


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
      To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 4:45 PM
      Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl, Part 3


      > Darryl wrote:
      >
      > << We can't attempt to tie down the Bible to the "demands of truth
      > and logic".>>
      >
      > If you really believe that, then why were you inconsistent as to use
      > biblical passages to argue against capital punishment (that is, up
      > until the point where it becomes clear that your appeals to the
      > proof texts aren't working)?
      >
      >
      > You went on to say:
      >
      > << Otherwise we would reject it because of the contradictions and
      > inconsistencies, which do exist, rather than looking at the bigger
      > picture. >>
      >
      > Ah yes, all those 1001 really obvious Bible contradictions that are
      > as obvious as the "inconsistency" in the Romulan homeworld's having
      > two names in Star Trek: TOS, or Chekov's being recognized by Khan in
      > Star Trek II, etc.
      >
      > Without my even endorsing all the assertions and arguments of these
      > sites, are you aware of the many Web sites that offer rejoinders to
      > the claims of biblical errantists?
      >
      >
      > Darryl wrote:
      >
      > << The Bible is inspired by God, but it was set down by fallible
      > humans, but God still speaks to us through it. >>
      >
      > And He says whatever we want Him to say, right? And one hundred
      > years from now when the pendulums of history and ethics have swung
      > in the other direction, when Jews have become demonized, when Israel
      > has been wiped off the map to the applause of people the world over,
      > when Arab immigrants have been run out of Europe while those who
      > remain are just put to death, when old people are put to death as
      > useless eaters, *then* God will be saying that it is a matter
      > of "Christian mercy" to kill the old and to rid the world of the
      > Jewish problem, right?
      >
      > Man, do you even have a good reason to believe that God "speaks
      > through" the Bible?
      >
      > -Kwame
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
      > http://theologicallycorrect.com
      > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole Life
      of the Believer
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • not Yusef
      Darryl wrote:
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 1, 2006
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        Darryl wrote:

        << Dear Kwame

        God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture requires
        us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply take words
        literallyoff a page without considering their historical context or
        our presuppositions that affect our hermenutics. >>

        Incomplete sentence.
        Anyway, besides your apparently continued misuse of the
        word "literal" or "literally," you are preaching to the choir.
        Meanwhile, this appeal of yours to concerns of intellect, context
        and presuppositions does nothing to change the established facts of
        the case against capital punishment, and it does nothing to change
        the fact that you have not backed up your claim that the Bible's got
        all these self-contradictions and stuff.

        If you don't have the time to deliver a smart and well-thought-out
        response, then there is no need to rush together a hasty response,
        you know.


        Darryl wrote:

        > My last word on state-sanctioned murder is that Jesus frequently
        was at odds
        > with tehauthorities because he put compassion ahead strict
        interpreation of
        > the law.
        >
        >
        > 5So the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, 'Why do your
        disciples not live
        > according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled
        hands?' 6He
        > said to them, 'Isaiah prophesied rightly about you hypocrites, as
        it is
        > written,
        > "This people honours me with their lips,
        > but their hearts are far from me;
        > 7in vain do they worship me,
        > teaching human precepts as doctrines."
        > 8You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human tradition.'
        (Mark
        > 7:5-8).

        Managed to rush and throw that together at the last minute, did
        you? One problem with this appeal to Mark 7 is that you have not
        demonstated that the belief of the propriety of capital punishment
        is just a tradition of man. In fact, we saw in Genesis 9 a
        commandment of God, did we not? (And when you say "the law" above,
        did the phrase really mean *the Pentateuch* vs. *the Law of Moses*?)

        That's all.
        -Kwame


        >
        >
        > Kind regards
        >
        > Darryl
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
        > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 4:45 PM
        > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl,
        Part 3
        >
        >
        > > Darryl wrote:
        > >
        > > << We can't attempt to tie down the Bible to the "demands of
        truth
        > > and logic".>>
        > >
        > > If you really believe that, then why were you inconsistent as to
        use
        > > biblical passages to argue against capital punishment (that is,
        up
        > > until the point where it becomes clear that your appeals to the
        > > proof texts aren't working)?
        > >
        > >
        > > You went on to say:
        > >
        > > << Otherwise we would reject it because of the contradictions and
        > > inconsistencies, which do exist, rather than looking at the
        bigger
        > > picture. >>
        > >
        > > Ah yes, all those 1001 really obvious Bible contradictions that
        are
        > > as obvious as the "inconsistency" in the Romulan homeworld's
        having
        > > two names in Star Trek: TOS, or Chekov's being recognized by
        Khan in
        > > Star Trek II, etc.
        > >
        > > Without my even endorsing all the assertions and arguments of
        these
        > > sites, are you aware of the many Web sites that offer rejoinders
        to
        > > the claims of biblical errantists?
        > >
        > >
        > > Darryl wrote:
        > >
        > > << The Bible is inspired by God, but it was set down by fallible
        > > humans, but God still speaks to us through it. >>
        > >
        > > And He says whatever we want Him to say, right? And one hundred
        > > years from now when the pendulums of history and ethics have
        swung
        > > in the other direction, when Jews have become demonized, when
        Israel
        > > has been wiped off the map to the applause of people the world
        over,
        > > when Arab immigrants have been run out of Europe while those who
        > > remain are just put to death, when old people are put to death as
        > > useless eaters, *then* God will be saying that it is a matter
        > > of "Christian mercy" to kill the old and to rid the world of the
        > > Jewish problem, right?
        > >
        > > Man, do you even have a good reason to believe that God "speaks
        > > through" the Bible?
        > >
        > > -Kwame
      • Darryl Ward
        Dear Kwame Yes, it was incomplete sentence. (I suspect that only God has perfect grammar). It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you are
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 2, 2006
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          Dear Kwame

          Yes, it was incomplete sentence.

          (I suspect that only God has perfect grammar).

          It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you are going
          to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is this context is
          outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion shown by the
          Jesus.

          The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned prisoner.

          We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead of taking it
          literally, especially when the words of Older Testament notions of justice
          and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.

          Kind regards

          Darryl

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
          To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:10 AM
          Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl, Part 3


          > Darryl wrote:
          >
          > << Dear Kwame
          >
          > God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture requires
          > us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply take words
          > literallyoff a page without considering their historical context or
          > our presuppositions that affect our hermenutics. >>
          >
          > Incomplete sentence.
          > Anyway, besides your apparently continued misuse of the
          > word "literal" or "literally," you are preaching to the choir.
          > Meanwhile, this appeal of yours to concerns of intellect, context
          > and presuppositions does nothing to change the established facts of
          > the case against capital punishment, and it does nothing to change
          > the fact that you have not backed up your claim that the Bible's got
          > all these self-contradictions and stuff.
          >
          > If you don't have the time to deliver a smart and well-thought-out
          > response, then there is no need to rush together a hasty response,
          > you know.
          >
          >
          > Darryl wrote:
          >
          > > My last word on state-sanctioned murder is that Jesus frequently
          > was at odds
          > > with tehauthorities because he put compassion ahead strict
          > interpreation of
          > > the law.
          > >
          > >
          > > 5So the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, 'Why do your
          > disciples not live
          > > according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled
          > hands?' 6He
          > > said to them, 'Isaiah prophesied rightly about you hypocrites, as
          > it is
          > > written,
          > > "This people honours me with their lips,
          > > but their hearts are far from me;
          > > 7in vain do they worship me,
          > > teaching human precepts as doctrines."
          > > 8You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human tradition.'
          > (Mark
          > > 7:5-8).
          >
          > Managed to rush and throw that together at the last minute, did
          > you? One problem with this appeal to Mark 7 is that you have not
          > demonstated that the belief of the propriety of capital punishment
          > is just a tradition of man. In fact, we saw in Genesis 9 a
          > commandment of God, did we not? (And when you say "the law" above,
          > did the phrase really mean *the Pentateuch* vs. *the Law of Moses*?)
          >
          > That's all.
          > -Kwame
          >
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > Kind regards
          > >
          > > Darryl
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
          > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 4:45 PM
          > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl,
          > Part 3
          > >
          > >
          > > > Darryl wrote:
          > > >
          > > > << We can't attempt to tie down the Bible to the "demands of
          > truth
          > > > and logic".>>
          > > >
          > > > If you really believe that, then why were you inconsistent as to
          > use
          > > > biblical passages to argue against capital punishment (that is,
          > up
          > > > until the point where it becomes clear that your appeals to the
          > > > proof texts aren't working)?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > You went on to say:
          > > >
          > > > << Otherwise we would reject it because of the contradictions and
          > > > inconsistencies, which do exist, rather than looking at the
          > bigger
          > > > picture. >>
          > > >
          > > > Ah yes, all those 1001 really obvious Bible contradictions that
          > are
          > > > as obvious as the "inconsistency" in the Romulan homeworld's
          > having
          > > > two names in Star Trek: TOS, or Chekov's being recognized by
          > Khan in
          > > > Star Trek II, etc.
          > > >
          > > > Without my even endorsing all the assertions and arguments of
          > these
          > > > sites, are you aware of the many Web sites that offer rejoinders
          > to
          > > > the claims of biblical errantists?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Darryl wrote:
          > > >
          > > > << The Bible is inspired by God, but it was set down by fallible
          > > > humans, but God still speaks to us through it. >>
          > > >
          > > > And He says whatever we want Him to say, right? And one hundred
          > > > years from now when the pendulums of history and ethics have
          > swung
          > > > in the other direction, when Jews have become demonized, when
          > Israel
          > > > has been wiped off the map to the applause of people the world
          > over,
          > > > when Arab immigrants have been run out of Europe while those who
          > > > remain are just put to death, when old people are put to death as
          > > > useless eaters, *then* God will be saying that it is a matter
          > > > of "Christian mercy" to kill the old and to rid the world of the
          > > > Jewish problem, right?
          > > >
          > > > Man, do you even have a good reason to believe that God "speaks
          > > > through" the Bible?
          > > >
          > > > -Kwame
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
          > http://theologicallycorrect.com
          > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole Life
          of the Believer
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date:
          27/10/2006
          >
          >
        • Maestrosecret
          The individual is different from the nation. That means; the individual is governed by his convictions and the nation is governed by the law (I Pet 2:13-14).
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 2, 2006
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            The individual is different from the nation. That means; the individual is governed by his convictions and the nation is governed by the law (I Pet 2:13-14). The individual may forgive and pretend to forget but the nation is there to punish the evil doers (Rom 13:3-4). And punishment as deem fitting the crime (even though many people have been put to death unjustified or condemned for nothing) may vary from jail time to execution.
            My only problem with the death penalty is not that it is not biblically normative but the Uberrima Fides in applying justice which in most cases is absent. With the present of DNA which in some cases could be tampered with does not guarantee anyone a true outcome in a case where death is sorted. Secondly, the application of jurisprudence to please or pacify the family of the victims is another issue. I hear people say: “now that he is going to die we will find peace and a closure to the case”. The sadism behind the execution turns it from punishment for a crime to a massacre. However, that does not exempt the fact that people should be executed.


            Darryl Ward <taliesin@...> wrote: Dear Kwame

            Yes, it was incomplete sentence.

            (I suspect that only God has perfect grammar).

            It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you are going
            to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is this context is
            outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion shown by the
            Jesus.

            The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned prisoner.

            We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead of taking it
            literally, especially when the words of Older Testament notions of justice
            and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.

            Kind regards

            Darryl

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
            To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:10 AM
            Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl, Part 3

            > Darryl wrote:
            >
            > << Dear Kwame
            >
            > God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture requires
            > us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply take words
            > literallyoff a page without considering their historical context or
            > our presuppositions that affect our hermenutics. >>
            >
            > Incomplete sentence.
            > Anyway, besides your apparently continued misuse of the
            > word "literal" or "literally," you are preaching to the choir.
            > Meanwhile, this appeal of yours to concerns of intellect, context
            > and presuppositions does nothing to change the established facts of
            > the case against capital punishment, and it does nothing to change
            > the fact that you have not backed up your claim that the Bible's got
            > all these self-contradictions and stuff.
            >
            > If you don't have the time to deliver a smart and well-thought-out
            > response, then there is no need to rush together a hasty response,
            > you know.
            >
            >
            > Darryl wrote:
            >
            > > My last word on state-sanctioned murder is that Jesus frequently
            > was at odds
            > > with tehauthorities because he put compassion ahead strict
            > interpreation of
            > > the law.
            > >
            > >
            > > 5So the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, 'Why do your
            > disciples not live
            > > according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled
            > hands?' 6He
            > > said to them, 'Isaiah prophesied rightly about you hypocrites, as
            > it is
            > > written,
            > > "This people honours me with their lips,
            > > but their hearts are far from me;
            > > 7in vain do they worship me,
            > > teaching human precepts as doctrines."
            > > 8You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human tradition.'
            > (Mark
            > > 7:5-8).
            >
            > Managed to rush and throw that together at the last minute, did
            > you? One problem with this appeal to Mark 7 is that you have not
            > demonstated that the belief of the propriety of capital punishment
            > is just a tradition of man. In fact, we saw in Genesis 9 a
            > commandment of God, did we not? (And when you say "the law" above,
            > did the phrase really mean *the Pentateuch* vs. *the Law of Moses*?)
            >
            > That's all.
            > -Kwame
            >
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > Kind regards
            > >
            > > Darryl
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
            > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 4:45 PM
            > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl,
            > Part 3
            > >
            > >
            > > > Darryl wrote:
            > > >
            > > > << We can't attempt to tie down the Bible to the "demands of
            > truth
            > > > and logic".>>
            > > >
            > > > If you really believe that, then why were you inconsistent as to
            > use
            > > > biblical passages to argue against capital punishment (that is,
            > up
            > > > until the point where it becomes clear that your appeals to the
            > > > proof texts aren't working)?
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > You went on to say:
            > > >
            > > > << Otherwise we would reject it because of the contradictions and
            > > > inconsistencies, which do exist, rather than looking at the
            > bigger
            > > > picture. >>
            > > >
            > > > Ah yes, all those 1001 really obvious Bible contradictions that
            > are
            > > > as obvious as the "inconsistency" in the Romulan homeworld's
            > having
            > > > two names in Star Trek: TOS, or Chekov's being recognized by
            > Khan in
            > > > Star Trek II, etc.
            > > >
            > > > Without my even endorsing all the assertions and arguments of
            > these
            > > > sites, are you aware of the many Web sites that offer rejoinders
            > to
            > > > the claims of biblical errantists?
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Darryl wrote:
            > > >
            > > > << The Bible is inspired by God, but it was set down by fallible
            > > > humans, but God still speaks to us through it. >>
            > > >
            > > > And He says whatever we want Him to say, right? And one hundred
            > > > years from now when the pendulums of history and ethics have
            > swung
            > > > in the other direction, when Jews have become demonized, when
            > Israel
            > > > has been wiped off the map to the applause of people the world
            > over,
            > > > when Arab immigrants have been run out of Europe while those who
            > > > remain are just put to death, when old people are put to death as
            > > > useless eaters, *then* God will be saying that it is a matter
            > > > of "Christian mercy" to kill the old and to rid the world of the
            > > > Jewish problem, right?
            > > >
            > > > Man, do you even have a good reason to believe that God "speaks
            > > > through" the Bible?
            > > >
            > > > -Kwame
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
            > http://theologicallycorrect.com
            > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole Life
            of the Believer
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date:
            27/10/2006
            >
            >






            "Life is like a mysterious highway. At times we bypass those who would have made us happy on the other side of the road either because of our hyperopia or myopia" (Hamilton Ayuk).




























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          • Shaun Green
            Dear Darryl I am sure Kwame can do a much better job than me, but I do need the practice ;-) ... If the church regards God s Word, or part thereof, as outdated
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 2, 2006
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              Dear Darryl

              I am sure Kwame can do a much better job than me, but I do need the
              practice ;-)

              You wrote:
              > It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you are going
              > to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is this context is
              > outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion shown by the
              > Jesus.
              >

              If the church regards God's Word, or part thereof, as outdated and
              irrelevant, should we be surprised to find the world in agreement?

              I believe that the Word of God will never be outdated. As one of Noah's
              sons, I can see no reason why I should not take seriously what God said
              to us on the subject of blood.

              Preaching on the Mountain, Jesus said:
              Matthew 5:17-30
              17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am
              not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
              18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one
              tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
              19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and
              shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of
              heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called
              great in the kingdom of heaven.

              He finished this most awesome sermon with:
              Matthew 7:24-29
              24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I
              will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
              25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and
              beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
              26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not,
              shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
              27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and
              beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
              28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people
              were astonished at his doctrine:
              29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

              Darryl, let us rather build on this Rock.

              > The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned prisoner.
              >
              >

              How did you come by this knowledge of Jesus?

              > We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead of taking it
              > literally, especially when the words of Older Testament notions of justice
              > and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.
              >
              >

              I know of no such actions. Do you?

              Kind regards
              Shaun Green

              --
              This message has been scanned for viruses and
              dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
              believed to be clean.
            • taliesin@paradise.net.nz
              Dear anonymous You say: However, that does not exempt the fact that people should be executed. That is not a FACT it is your OPINION, and in my humble
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 2, 2006
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                Dear anonymous

                You say: "However, that does not exempt the fact that people should be
                executed."

                That is not a FACT it is your OPINION, and in my humble OPINION, it is not
                very a Christian one at that.

                Just because you have an opinion that you can appear to back up by selectively
                quoting from unrelated parts of the Bible does not make it a "fact".

                Instead of quoting bits of the Bible out of it context to justify your belief
                in killing, you should perhaps be considering the words of Jesus.

                To give but one example:

                Luke 6:3636

                "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."

                Why am I not surprised though that those of you who are in favour of killing
                are only quoting from some of the more oppressive parts of the Priestly
                contributions the Pentateuch and the Pauline epistles, but are ignoring the
                Gospels, even though Jesus takes precedence over Paul?

                Kind regards

                Darryl





                Quoting Maestrosecret <marck19692000@...>:

                > The individual is different from the nation. That means; the individual
                > is governed by his convictions and the nation is governed by the law (I
                > Pet 2:13-14). The individual may forgive and pretend to forget but the
                > nation is there to punish the evil doers (Rom 13:3-4). And punishment as
                > deem fitting the crime (even though many people have been put to death
                > unjustified or condemned for nothing) may vary from jail time to
                > execution.
                > My only problem with the death penalty is not that it is not biblically
                > normative but the Uberrima Fides in applying justice which in most cases
                > is absent. With the present of DNA which in some cases could be tampered
                > with does not guarantee anyone a true outcome in a case where death is
                > sorted. Secondly, the application of jurisprudence to please or pacify
                > the family of the victims is another issue. I hear people say: “now that
                > he is going to die we will find peace and a closure to the case”. The
                > sadism behind the execution turns it from punishment for a crime to a
                > massacre. However, that does not exempt the fact that people should be
                > executed.
                >
                >
                > Darryl Ward <taliesin@...> wrote: Dear Kwame
                >
                > Yes, it was incomplete sentence.
                >
                > (I suspect that only God has perfect grammar).
                >
                > It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you are
                > going
                > to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is this
                > context is
                > outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion shown by the
                > Jesus.
                >
                > The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned prisoner.
                >
                > We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead of taking
                > it
                > literally, especially when the words of Older Testament notions of
                > justice
                > and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.
                >
                > Kind regards
                >
                > Darryl
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
                > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:10 AM
                > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl, Part
                > 3
                >
                > > Darryl wrote:
                > >
                > > << Dear Kwame
                > >
                > > God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture requires
                > > us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply take words
                > > literallyoff a page without considering their historical context or
                > > our presuppositions that affect our hermenutics. >>
                > >
                > > Incomplete sentence.
                > > Anyway, besides your apparently continued misuse of the
                > > word "literal" or "literally," you are preaching to the choir.
                > > Meanwhile, this appeal of yours to concerns of intellect, context
                > > and presuppositions does nothing to change the established facts of
                > > the case against capital punishment, and it does nothing to change
                > > the fact that you have not backed up your claim that the Bible's got
                > > all these self-contradictions and stuff.
                > >
                > > If you don't have the time to deliver a smart and well-thought-out
                > > response, then there is no need to rush together a hasty response,
                > > you know.
                > >
                > >
                > > Darryl wrote:
                > >
                > > > My last word on state-sanctioned murder is that Jesus frequently
                > > was at odds
                > > > with tehauthorities because he put compassion ahead strict
                > > interpreation of
                > > > the law.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > 5So the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, 'Why do your
                > > disciples not live
                > > > according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled
                > > hands?' 6He
                > > > said to them, 'Isaiah prophesied rightly about you hypocrites, as
                > > it is
                > > > written,
                > > > "This people honours me with their lips,
                > > > but their hearts are far from me;
                > > > 7in vain do they worship me,
                > > > teaching human precepts as doctrines."
                > > > 8You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human tradition.'
                > > (Mark
                > > > 7:5-8).
                > >
                > > Managed to rush and throw that together at the last minute, did
                > > you? One problem with this appeal to Mark 7 is that you have not
                > > demonstated that the belief of the propriety of capital punishment
                > > is just a tradition of man. In fact, we saw in Genesis 9 a
                > > commandment of God, did we not? (And when you say "the law" above,
                > > did the phrase really mean *the Pentateuch* vs. *the Law of Moses*?)
                > >
                > > That's all.
                > > -Kwame
                > >
                > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Kind regards
                > > >
                > > > Darryl
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
                > > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 4:45 PM
                > > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl,
                > > Part 3
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > > Darryl wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > << We can't attempt to tie down the Bible to the "demands of
                > > truth
                > > > > and logic".>>
                > > > >
                > > > > If you really believe that, then why were you inconsistent as to
                > > use
                > > > > biblical passages to argue against capital punishment (that is,
                > > up
                > > > > until the point where it becomes clear that your appeals to the
                > > > > proof texts aren't working)?
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > You went on to say:
                > > > >
                > > > > << Otherwise we would reject it because of the contradictions and
                > > > > inconsistencies, which do exist, rather than looking at the
                > > bigger
                > > > > picture. >>
                > > > >
                > > > > Ah yes, all those 1001 really obvious Bible contradictions that
                > > are
                > > > > as obvious as the "inconsistency" in the Romulan homeworld's
                > > having
                > > > > two names in Star Trek: TOS, or Chekov's being recognized by
                > > Khan in
                > > > > Star Trek II, etc.
                > > > >
                > > > > Without my even endorsing all the assertions and arguments of
                > > these
                > > > > sites, are you aware of the many Web sites that offer rejoinders
                > > to
                > > > > the claims of biblical errantists?
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Darryl wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > << The Bible is inspired by God, but it was set down by fallible
                > > > > humans, but God still speaks to us through it. >>
                > > > >
                > > > > And He says whatever we want Him to say, right? And one hundred
                > > > > years from now when the pendulums of history and ethics have
                > > swung
                > > > > in the other direction, when Jews have become demonized, when
                > > Israel
                > > > > has been wiped off the map to the applause of people the world
                > > over,
                > > > > when Arab immigrants have been run out of Europe while those who
                > > > > remain are just put to death, when old people are put to death as
                > > > > useless eaters, *then* God will be saying that it is a matter
                > > > > of "Christian mercy" to kill the old and to rid the world of the
                > > > > Jewish problem, right?
                > > > >
                > > > > Man, do you even have a good reason to believe that God "speaks
                > > > > through" the Bible?
                > > > >
                > > > > -Kwame
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                > > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                > > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole
                > Life
                > of the Believer
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --
                > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                > > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date:
                > 27/10/2006
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > "Life is like a mysterious highway. At times we bypass those who would
                > have made us happy on the other side of the road either because of our
                > hyperopia or myopia" (Hamilton Ayuk).
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
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                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole Life
                > of the Believer
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • taliesin@paradise.net.nz
                Dear Shaun You ask how did I come by this knowledge of Jesus ? By reading the Bible! ESPECIALLY the Gospels! Jesus showed compassion and forgiveness and saved
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 2, 2006
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                  Dear Shaun

                  You ask how did I "come by this knowledge of Jesus"?

                  By reading the Bible!

                  ESPECIALLY the Gospels!

                  Jesus showed compassion and forgiveness and saved a woman from execution by
                  asking who amongst her sinners was without sin!

                  I accept that the word of God can never be outdated, but I do consider that
                  some parts, (e.g. Genesis 1-11) are more metaphorical than literal, which to
                  me is no more scandalous than saying that Jesus spoke in parables.

                  I also accept that as God's revelation to us through the Scriptures is ongoing
                  as our interpretations mature, e.g. few people would now accept that Genesis 9
                  still authorises slavery or that women may nor preach because of the social
                  context of Paul's teaching.

                  Most western countries now accept that capital punishment no longer has a
                  place in any civilised country, and nobody has shown me anything to suggest
                  that Jesus (forget about Paul for now) would take any different view.

                  Kind regards

                  Darryl



                  Quoting Shaun Green <learning@...>:

                  > Dear Darryl
                  >
                  > I am sure Kwame can do a much better job than me, but I do need the
                  > practice ;-)
                  >
                  > You wrote:
                  > > It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you are
                  > going
                  > > to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is this
                  > context is
                  > > outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion shown by
                  > the
                  > > Jesus.
                  > >
                  >
                  > If the church regards God's Word, or part thereof, as outdated and
                  > irrelevant, should we be surprised to find the world in agreement?
                  >
                  > I believe that the Word of God will never be outdated. As one of Noah's
                  >
                  > sons, I can see no reason why I should not take seriously what God said
                  >
                  > to us on the subject of blood.
                  >
                  > Preaching on the Mountain, Jesus said:
                  > Matthew 5:17-30
                  > 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am
                  > not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
                  > 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one
                  >
                  > tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
                  > 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and
                  >
                  > shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of
                  > heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called
                  >
                  > great in the kingdom of heaven.
                  >
                  > He finished this most awesome sermon with:
                  > Matthew 7:24-29
                  > 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I
                  >
                  > will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
                  > 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and
                  >
                  > beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
                  > 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not,
                  >
                  > shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the
                  > sand:
                  > 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and
                  >
                  > beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
                  > 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people
                  > were astonished at his doctrine:
                  > 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
                  >
                  > Darryl, let us rather build on this Rock.
                  >
                  > > The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned prisoner.
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > How did you come by this knowledge of Jesus?
                  >
                  > > We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead of taking
                  > it
                  > > literally, especially when the words of Older Testament notions of
                  > justice
                  > > and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > I know of no such actions. Do you?
                  >
                  > Kind regards
                  > Shaun Green
                  >
                  > --
                  > This message has been scanned for viruses and
                  > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
                  > believed to be clean.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                  > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                  > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole Life
                  > of the Believer
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • not Yusef
                  Mr. Ward, you had your chance to present a case against the idea that it is the will of God (who as the NT says is a consuming fire and will punish those who
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 2, 2006
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                    Mr. Ward, you had your chance to present a case against the idea
                    that it is the will of God (who as the NT says is a consuming fire
                    and will punish those who do evil whether sooner or later) that
                    capital punishment be carried out.

                    You made your case for "Christian compassion," and this case was
                    followed up by inconvenient reminders that wrath and punishment are
                    present even in the NT.

                    You also made your case from John 8:3-11 and other proof texts, and
                    this case was followed up by an analysis of those texts; the
                    arguments that were made contrary to both of the foregoing cases
                    have not yet been shown to be either invalid or unsound. You
                    haven't shown any counterexamples to the arguments; in fact, you
                    keep inventing new arguments against capital punishment every 24
                    hours, and they keep getting shot down or rendered moot every 24
                    hours, and now you are attempting to rewrite history.

                    I don't need to say anything more on this issue. The archives of
                    this forum are available for everyone to browse and read at
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apologetics/
                    Your desire to get the last word in, or to have a sense of being
                    right, or to subvert the teachings of the Bible, is clear for
                    everyone to see.

                    Cheers,
                    Kwame


                    --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, Darryl Ward wrote:
                    >
                    > It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you
                    are going
                    > to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is this
                    context is
                    > outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion shown
                    by the
                    > Jesus.
                    >
                    > The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned
                    prisoner.
                    >
                    > We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead of
                    taking it
                    > literally, especially when the words of Older Testament notions of
                    justice
                    > and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.
                    >
                    > Kind regards
                    >
                    > Darryl
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
                    > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:10 AM
                    > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl,
                    Part 3
                    >
                    >
                    > > Darryl wrote:
                    > >
                    > > << Dear Kwame
                    > >
                    > > God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture
                    requires
                    > > us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply take
                    words
                    > > literallyoff a page without considering their historical context
                    or
                    > > our presuppositions that affect our hermenutics. >>
                    > >
                    > > Incomplete sentence.
                    > > Anyway, besides your apparently continued misuse of the
                    > > word "literal" or "literally," you are preaching to the choir.
                    > > Meanwhile, this appeal of yours to concerns of intellect, context
                    > > and presuppositions does nothing to change the established facts
                    of
                    > > the case against capital punishment, and it does nothing to
                    change
                    > > the fact that you have not backed up your claim that the Bible's
                    got
                    > > all these self-contradictions and stuff.
                    > >
                    > > If you don't have the time to deliver a smart and well-thought-
                    out
                    > > response, then there is no need to rush together a hasty
                    response,
                    > > you know.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Darryl wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > My last word on state-sanctioned murder is that Jesus
                    frequently
                    > > was at odds
                    > > > with tehauthorities because he put compassion ahead strict
                    > > interpreation of
                    > > > the law.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 5So the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, 'Why do your
                    > > disciples not live
                    > > > according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled
                    > > hands?' 6He
                    > > > said to them, 'Isaiah prophesied rightly about you hypocrites,
                    as
                    > > it is
                    > > > written,
                    > > > "This people honours me with their lips,
                    > > > but their hearts are far from me;
                    > > > 7in vain do they worship me,
                    > > > teaching human precepts as doctrines."
                    > > > 8You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human
                    tradition.'
                    > > (Mark
                    > > > 7:5-8).
                    > >
                    > > Managed to rush and throw that together at the last minute, did
                    > > you? One problem with this appeal to Mark 7 is that you have not
                    > > demonstated that the belief of the propriety of capital
                    punishment
                    > > is just a tradition of man. In fact, we saw in Genesis 9 a
                    > > commandment of God, did we not? (And when you say "the law"
                    above,
                    > > did the phrase really mean *the Pentateuch* vs. *the Law of
                    Moses*?)
                    > >
                    > > That's all.
                    > > -Kwame
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Kind regards
                    > > >
                    > > > Darryl
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@>
                    > > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 4:45 PM
                    > > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for
                    Darryl,
                    > > Part 3
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > > Darryl wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > << We can't attempt to tie down the Bible to the "demands of
                    > > truth
                    > > > > and logic".>>
                    > > > >
                    > > > > If you really believe that, then why were you inconsistent
                    as to
                    > > use
                    > > > > biblical passages to argue against capital punishment (that
                    is,
                    > > up
                    > > > > until the point where it becomes clear that your appeals to
                    the
                    > > > > proof texts aren't working)?
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > You went on to say:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > << Otherwise we would reject it because of the
                    contradictions and
                    > > > > inconsistencies, which do exist, rather than looking at the
                    > > bigger
                    > > > > picture. >>
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Ah yes, all those 1001 really obvious Bible contradictions
                    that
                    > > are
                    > > > > as obvious as the "inconsistency" in the Romulan homeworld's
                    > > having
                    > > > > two names in Star Trek: TOS, or Chekov's being recognized by
                    > > Khan in
                    > > > > Star Trek II, etc.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Without my even endorsing all the assertions and arguments of
                    > > these
                    > > > > sites, are you aware of the many Web sites that offer
                    rejoinders
                    > > to
                    > > > > the claims of biblical errantists?
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Darryl wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > << The Bible is inspired by God, but it was set down by
                    fallible
                    > > > > humans, but God still speaks to us through it. >>
                    > > > >
                    > > > > And He says whatever we want Him to say, right? And one
                    hundred
                    > > > > years from now when the pendulums of history and ethics have
                    > > swung
                    > > > > in the other direction, when Jews have become demonized, when
                    > > Israel
                    > > > > has been wiped off the map to the applause of people the
                    world
                    > > over,
                    > > > > when Arab immigrants have been run out of Europe while those
                    who
                    > > > > remain are just put to death, when old people are put to
                    death as
                    > > > > useless eaters, *then* God will be saying that it is a matter
                    > > > > of "Christian mercy" to kill the old and to rid the world of
                    the
                    > > > > Jewish problem, right?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Man, do you even have a good reason to believe that
                    God "speaks
                    > > > > through" the Bible?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > -Kwame
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                    > > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                    > > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the
                    Whole Life
                    > of the Believer
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    > > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date:
                    > 27/10/2006
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Maestrosecret
                    Dear Darryl And yours that people should not be executed is a FACT and a more Christian one. You know the Bible says to him that is pure all is pure. On what
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 2, 2006
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                      Dear Darryl
                      And yours that people should not be executed is a FACT and a more Christian one. You know the Bible says to him that is pure all is pure. On what grounds do you stand to claim that my opinion is not a very Christian one and yours is? That is called Pharisaism. Then to plunge yourself into more ridicule you quote one verse; oh sorry, three verses I guess. To you one verse makes a whole doctrine. I deduce you do not know Jesus came to perfect the law and not to abolish it. Until then see you next time.
                      Hamilton




                      taliesin@... wrote: Dear anonymous

                      You say: "However, that does not exempt the fact that people should be
                      executed."

                      That is not a FACT it is your OPINION, and in my humble OPINION, it is not
                      very a Christian one at that.

                      Just because you have an opinion that you can appear to back up by selectively
                      quoting from unrelated parts of the Bible does not make it a "fact".

                      Instead of quoting bits of the Bible out of it context to justify your belief
                      in killing, you should perhaps be considering the words of Jesus.

                      To give but one example:

                      Luke 6:3636

                      "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."

                      Why am I not surprised though that those of you who are in favour of killing
                      are only quoting from some of the more oppressive parts of the Priestly
                      contributions the Pentateuch and the Pauline epistles, but are ignoring the
                      Gospels, even though Jesus takes precedence over Paul?

                      Kind regards

                      Darryl

                      Quoting Maestrosecret <marck19692000@...>:

                      > The individual is different from the nation. That means; the individual
                      > is governed by his convictions and the nation is governed by the law (I
                      > Pet 2:13-14). The individual may forgive and pretend to forget but the
                      > nation is there to punish the evil doers (Rom 13:3-4). And punishment as
                      > deem fitting the crime (even though many people have been put to death
                      > unjustified or condemned for nothing) may vary from jail time to
                      > execution.
                      > My only problem with the death penalty is not that it is not biblically
                      > normative but the Uberrima Fides in applying justice which in most cases
                      > is absent. With the present of DNA which in some cases could be tampered
                      > with does not guarantee anyone a true outcome in a case where death is
                      > sorted. Secondly, the application of jurisprudence to please or pacify
                      > the family of the victims is another issue. I hear people say: “now that
                      > he is going to die we will find peace and a closure to the case”. The
                      > sadism behind the execution turns it from punishment for a crime to a
                      > massacre. However, that does not exempt the fact that people should be
                      > executed.
                      >
                      >
                      > Darryl Ward <taliesin@...> wrote: Dear Kwame
                      >
                      > Yes, it was incomplete sentence.
                      >
                      > (I suspect that only God has perfect grammar).
                      >
                      > It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you are
                      > going
                      > to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is this
                      > context is
                      > outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion shown by the
                      > Jesus.
                      >
                      > The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned prisoner.
                      >
                      > We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead of taking
                      > it
                      > literally, especially when the words of Older Testament notions of
                      > justice
                      > and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.
                      >
                      > Kind regards
                      >
                      > Darryl
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
                      > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:10 AM
                      > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl, Part
                      > 3
                      >
                      > > Darryl wrote:
                      > >
                      > > << Dear Kwame
                      > >
                      > > God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture requires
                      > > us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply take words
                      > > literallyoff a page without considering their historical context or
                      > > our presuppositions that affect our hermenutics. >>
                      > >
                      > > Incomplete sentence.
                      > > Anyway, besides your apparently continued misuse of the
                      > > word "literal" or "literally," you are preaching to the choir.
                      > > Meanwhile, this appeal of yours to concerns of intellect, context
                      > > and presuppositions does nothing to change the established facts of
                      > > the case against capital punishment, and it does nothing to change
                      > > the fact that you have not backed up your claim that the Bible's got
                      > > all these self-contradictions and stuff.
                      > >
                      > > If you don't have the time to deliver a smart and well-thought-out
                      > > response, then there is no need to rush together a hasty response,
                      > > you know.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Darryl wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > My last word on state-sanctioned murder is that Jesus frequently
                      > > was at odds
                      > > > with tehauthorities because he put compassion ahead strict
                      > > interpreation of
                      > > > the law.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > 5So the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, 'Why do your
                      > > disciples not live
                      > > > according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled
                      > > hands?' 6He
                      > > > said to them, 'Isaiah prophesied rightly about you hypocrites, as
                      > > it is
                      > > > written,
                      > > > "This people honours me with their lips,
                      > > > but their hearts are far from me;
                      > > > 7in vain do they worship me,
                      > > > teaching human precepts as doctrines."
                      > > > 8You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human tradition.'
                      > > (Mark
                      > > > 7:5-8).
                      > >
                      > > Managed to rush and throw that together at the last minute, did
                      > > you? One problem with this appeal to Mark 7 is that you have not
                      > > demonstated that the belief of the propriety of capital punishment
                      > > is just a tradition of man. In fact, we saw in Genesis 9 a
                      > > commandment of God, did we not? (And when you say "the law" above,
                      > > did the phrase really mean *the Pentateuch* vs. *the Law of Moses*?)
                      > >
                      > > That's all.
                      > > -Kwame
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Kind regards
                      > > >
                      > > > Darryl
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
                      > > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 4:45 PM
                      > > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl,
                      > > Part 3
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > Darryl wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > << We can't attempt to tie down the Bible to the "demands of
                      > > truth
                      > > > > and logic".>>
                      > > > >
                      > > > > If you really believe that, then why were you inconsistent as to
                      > > use
                      > > > > biblical passages to argue against capital punishment (that is,
                      > > up
                      > > > > until the point where it becomes clear that your appeals to the
                      > > > > proof texts aren't working)?
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > You went on to say:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > << Otherwise we would reject it because of the contradictions and
                      > > > > inconsistencies, which do exist, rather than looking at the
                      > > bigger
                      > > > > picture. >>
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Ah yes, all those 1001 really obvious Bible contradictions that
                      > > are
                      > > > > as obvious as the "inconsistency" in the Romulan homeworld's
                      > > having
                      > > > > two names in Star Trek: TOS, or Chekov's being recognized by
                      > > Khan in
                      > > > > Star Trek II, etc.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Without my even endorsing all the assertions and arguments of
                      > > these
                      > > > > sites, are you aware of the many Web sites that offer rejoinders
                      > > to
                      > > > > the claims of biblical errantists?
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Darryl wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > << The Bible is inspired by God, but it was set down by fallible
                      > > > > humans, but God still speaks to us through it. >>
                      > > > >
                      > > > > And He says whatever we want Him to say, right? And one hundred
                      > > > > years from now when the pendulums of history and ethics have
                      > > swung
                      > > > > in the other direction, when Jews have become demonized, when
                      > > Israel
                      > > > > has been wiped off the map to the applause of people the world
                      > > over,
                      > > > > when Arab immigrants have been run out of Europe while those who
                      > > > > remain are just put to death, when old people are put to death as
                      > > > > useless eaters, *then* God will be saying that it is a matter
                      > > > > of "Christian mercy" to kill the old and to rid the world of the
                      > > > > Jewish problem, right?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Man, do you even have a good reason to believe that God "speaks
                      > > > > through" the Bible?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > -Kwame
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                      > > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                      > > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole
                      > Life
                      > of the Believer
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
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                      > >
                      > > --
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                      > > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date:
                      > 27/10/2006
                      > >
                      > >
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                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > "Life is like a mysterious highway. At times we bypass those who would
                      > have made us happy on the other side of the road either because of our
                      > hyperopia or myopia" (Hamilton Ayuk).
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                      > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                      > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole Life
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                      "Life is like a mysterious highway. At times we bypass those who would have made us happy on the other side of the road either because of our hyperopia or myopia" (Hamilton Ayuk).




























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                    • taliesin@paradise.net.nz
                      Dear Kwame I do not consider that ANY of my arguments have been shot down and nor am I rewriting history. Quoting scripture outside of its historical context
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 2, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Kwame

                        I do not consider that ANY of my arguments have been shot down and nor am I
                        rewriting history.

                        Quoting scripture outside of its historical context does not meet what I
                        consider to be the threshold of proof.

                        In this respect, may I ask what theological institution YOU attended?

                        Then I might get some idea as to why it appears that you do not accept some
                        basic tools of biblical scholarship.

                        My arguments are centred on Christ, not words taken out of context that
                        contradict the very essence of his teachings

                        Kind regards

                        Darryl


                        Quoting not Yusef <yusefii@...>:

                        > Mr. Ward, you had your chance to present a case against the idea
                        > that it is the will of God (who as the NT says is a consuming fire
                        > and will punish those who do evil whether sooner or later) that
                        > capital punishment be carried out.
                        >
                        > You made your case for "Christian compassion," and this case was
                        > followed up by inconvenient reminders that wrath and punishment are
                        > present even in the NT.
                        >
                        > You also made your case from John 8:3-11 and other proof texts, and
                        > this case was followed up by an analysis of those texts; the
                        > arguments that were made contrary to both of the foregoing cases
                        > have not yet been shown to be either invalid or unsound. You
                        > haven't shown any counterexamples to the arguments; in fact, you
                        > keep inventing new arguments against capital punishment every 24
                        > hours, and they keep getting shot down or rendered moot every 24
                        > hours, and now you are attempting to rewrite history.
                        >
                        > I don't need to say anything more on this issue. The archives of
                        > this forum are available for everyone to browse and read at
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apologetics/
                        > Your desire to get the last word in, or to have a sense of being
                        > right, or to subvert the teachings of the Bible, is clear for
                        > everyone to see.
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > Kwame
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, Darryl Ward wrote:
                        > >
                        > > It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you
                        > are going
                        > > to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is this
                        > context is
                        > > outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion shown
                        > by the
                        > > Jesus.
                        > >
                        > > The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned
                        > prisoner.
                        > >
                        > > We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead of
                        > taking it
                        > > literally, especially when the words of Older Testament notions of
                        > justice
                        > > and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.
                        > >
                        > > Kind regards
                        > >
                        > > Darryl
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
                        > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:10 AM
                        > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl,
                        > Part 3
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > Darryl wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > << Dear Kwame
                        > > >
                        > > > God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture
                        > requires
                        > > > us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply take
                        > words
                        > > > literallyoff a page without considering their historical context
                        > or
                        > > > our presuppositions that affect our hermenutics. >>
                        > > >
                        > > > Incomplete sentence.
                        > > > Anyway, besides your apparently continued misuse of the
                        > > > word "literal" or "literally," you are preaching to the choir.
                        > > > Meanwhile, this appeal of yours to concerns of intellect, context
                        > > > and presuppositions does nothing to change the established facts
                        > of
                        > > > the case against capital punishment, and it does nothing to
                        > change
                        > > > the fact that you have not backed up your claim that the Bible's
                        > got
                        > > > all these self-contradictions and stuff.
                        > > >
                        > > > If you don't have the time to deliver a smart and well-thought-
                        > out
                        > > > response, then there is no need to rush together a hasty
                        > response,
                        > > > you know.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Darryl wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > My last word on state-sanctioned murder is that Jesus
                        > frequently
                        > > > was at odds
                        > > > > with tehauthorities because he put compassion ahead strict
                        > > > interpreation of
                        > > > > the law.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > 5So the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, 'Why do your
                        > > > disciples not live
                        > > > > according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled
                        > > > hands?' 6He
                        > > > > said to them, 'Isaiah prophesied rightly about you hypocrites,
                        > as
                        > > > it is
                        > > > > written,
                        > > > > "This people honours me with their lips,
                        > > > > but their hearts are far from me;
                        > > > > 7in vain do they worship me,
                        > > > > teaching human precepts as doctrines."
                        > > > > 8You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human
                        > tradition.'
                        > > > (Mark
                        > > > > 7:5-8).
                        > > >
                        > > > Managed to rush and throw that together at the last minute, did
                        > > > you? One problem with this appeal to Mark 7 is that you have not
                        > > > demonstated that the belief of the propriety of capital
                        > punishment
                        > > > is just a tradition of man. In fact, we saw in Genesis 9 a
                        > > > commandment of God, did we not? (And when you say "the law"
                        > above,
                        > > > did the phrase really mean *the Pentateuch* vs. *the Law of
                        > Moses*?)
                        > > >
                        > > > That's all.
                        > > > -Kwame
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Kind regards
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Darryl
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@>
                        > > > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 4:45 PM
                        > > > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for
                        > Darryl,
                        > > > Part 3
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > Darryl wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > << We can't attempt to tie down the Bible to the "demands of
                        > > > truth
                        > > > > > and logic".>>
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > If you really believe that, then why were you inconsistent
                        > as to
                        > > > use
                        > > > > > biblical passages to argue against capital punishment (that
                        > is,
                        > > > up
                        > > > > > until the point where it becomes clear that your appeals to
                        > the
                        > > > > > proof texts aren't working)?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > You went on to say:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > << Otherwise we would reject it because of the
                        > contradictions and
                        > > > > > inconsistencies, which do exist, rather than looking at the
                        > > > bigger
                        > > > > > picture. >>
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Ah yes, all those 1001 really obvious Bible contradictions
                        > that
                        > > > are
                        > > > > > as obvious as the "inconsistency" in the Romulan homeworld's
                        > > > having
                        > > > > > two names in Star Trek: TOS, or Chekov's being recognized by
                        > > > Khan in
                        > > > > > Star Trek II, etc.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Without my even endorsing all the assertions and arguments of
                        > > > these
                        > > > > > sites, are you aware of the many Web sites that offer
                        > rejoinders
                        > > > to
                        > > > > > the claims of biblical errantists?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Darryl wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > << The Bible is inspired by God, but it was set down by
                        > fallible
                        > > > > > humans, but God still speaks to us through it. >>
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > And He says whatever we want Him to say, right? And one
                        > hundred
                        > > > > > years from now when the pendulums of history and ethics have
                        > > > swung
                        > > > > > in the other direction, when Jews have become demonized, when
                        > > > Israel
                        > > > > > has been wiped off the map to the applause of people the
                        > world
                        > > > over,
                        > > > > > when Arab immigrants have been run out of Europe while those
                        > who
                        > > > > > remain are just put to death, when old people are put to
                        > death as
                        > > > > > useless eaters, *then* God will be saying that it is a matter
                        > > > > > of "Christian mercy" to kill the old and to rid the world of
                        > the
                        > > > > > Jewish problem, right?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Man, do you even have a good reason to believe that
                        > God "speaks
                        > > > > > through" the Bible?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > -Kwame
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                        > > > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                        > > > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the
                        > Whole Life
                        > > of the Believer
                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --
                        > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                        > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                        > > > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date:
                        > > 27/10/2006
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                        > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                        > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole Life
                        > of the Believer
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                        >
                        >
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                      • taliesin@paradise.net.nz
                        Dear Hamilton I am saying what I firmly believe what I based on my understanding of my Lord, but I try not to use the word fact . However, I am pleased you
                        Message 11 of 29 , Nov 2, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Hamilton

                          I am saying what I firmly believe what I based on my understanding of my Lord,
                          but I try not to use the word "fact".

                          However, I am pleased you raised the delicate matter of pharisees.

                          Pharisees placed strict observance of the letter of the law ahead of
                          compassion.

                          No offence intended, but I am pretty certain I know what side they would take
                          in this debate.

                          As you have correctly pointed out, Jesus said he came to perfect the law and
                          not to abolish it. You then quite correctly pointed out that one verse does
                          not a whole doctrine.

                          Kind regards

                          Darryl



                          Quoting Maestrosecret <marck19692000@...>:

                          > Dear Darryl
                          > And yours that people should not be executed is a FACT and a more
                          > Christian one. You know the Bible says to him that is pure all is pure.
                          > On what grounds do you stand to claim that my opinion is not a very
                          > Christian one and yours is? That is called Pharisaism. Then to plunge
                          > yourself into more ridicule you quote one verse; oh sorry, three verses
                          > I guess. To you one verse makes a whole doctrine. I deduce you do not
                          > know Jesus came to perfect the law and not to abolish it. Until then see
                          > you next time.
                          > Hamilton
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > taliesin@... wrote: Dear anonymous
                          >
                          > You say: "However, that does not exempt the fact that people should be
                          > executed."
                          >
                          > That is not a FACT it is your OPINION, and in my humble OPINION, it is
                          > not
                          > very a Christian one at that.
                          >
                          > Just because you have an opinion that you can appear to back up by
                          > selectively
                          > quoting from unrelated parts of the Bible does not make it a "fact".
                          >
                          > Instead of quoting bits of the Bible out of it context to justify your
                          > belief
                          > in killing, you should perhaps be considering the words of Jesus.
                          >
                          > To give but one example:
                          >
                          > Luke 6:3636
                          >
                          > "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
                          >
                          > Why am I not surprised though that those of you who are in favour of
                          > killing
                          > are only quoting from some of the more oppressive parts of the Priestly
                          >
                          > contributions the Pentateuch and the Pauline epistles, but are ignoring
                          > the
                          > Gospels, even though Jesus takes precedence over Paul?
                          >
                          > Kind regards
                          >
                          > Darryl
                          >
                          > Quoting Maestrosecret <marck19692000@...>:
                          >
                          > > The individual is different from the nation. That means; the
                          > individual
                          > > is governed by his convictions and the nation is governed by the law
                          > (I
                          > > Pet 2:13-14). The individual may forgive and pretend to forget but
                          > the
                          > > nation is there to punish the evil doers (Rom 13:3-4). And punishment
                          > as
                          > > deem fitting the crime (even though many people have been put to
                          > death
                          > > unjustified or condemned for nothing) may vary from jail time to
                          > > execution.
                          > > My only problem with the death penalty is not that it is not
                          > biblically
                          > > normative but the Uberrima Fides in applying justice which in most
                          > cases
                          > > is absent. With the present of DNA which in some cases could be
                          > tampered
                          > > with does not guarantee anyone a true outcome in a case where death
                          > is
                          > > sorted. Secondly, the application of jurisprudence to please or
                          > pacify
                          > > the family of the victims is another issue. I hear people say: “now
                          > that
                          > > he is going to die we will find peace and a closure to the case”. The
                          > > sadism behind the execution turns it from punishment for a crime to a
                          > > massacre. However, that does not exempt the fact that people should
                          > be
                          > > executed.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Darryl Ward <taliesin@...> wrote: Dear Kwame
                          > >
                          > > Yes, it was incomplete sentence.
                          > >
                          > > (I suspect that only God has perfect grammar).
                          > >
                          > > It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you are
                          > > going
                          > > to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is this
                          > > context is
                          > > outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion shown by
                          > the
                          > > Jesus.
                          > >
                          > > The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned prisoner.
                          > >
                          > > We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead of
                          > taking
                          > > it
                          > > literally, especially when the words of Older Testament notions of
                          > > justice
                          > > and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.
                          > >
                          > > Kind regards
                          > >
                          > > Darryl
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
                          > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:10 AM
                          > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl,
                          > Part
                          > > 3
                          > >
                          > > > Darryl wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > << Dear Kwame
                          > > >
                          > > > God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture requires
                          > > > us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply take words
                          > > > literallyoff a page without considering their historical context or
                          > > > our presuppositions that affect our hermenutics. >>
                          > > >
                          > > > Incomplete sentence.
                          > > > Anyway, besides your apparently continued misuse of the
                          > > > word "literal" or "literally," you are preaching to the choir.
                          > > > Meanwhile, this appeal of yours to concerns of intellect, context
                          > > > and presuppositions does nothing to change the established facts of
                          > > > the case against capital punishment, and it does nothing to change
                          > > > the fact that you have not backed up your claim that the Bible's
                          > got
                          > > > all these self-contradictions and stuff.
                          > > >
                          > > > If you don't have the time to deliver a smart and well-thought-out
                          > > > response, then there is no need to rush together a hasty response,
                          > > > you know.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Darryl wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > > My last word on state-sanctioned murder is that Jesus frequently
                          > > > was at odds
                          > > > > with tehauthorities because he put compassion ahead strict
                          > > > interpreation of
                          > > > > the law.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > 5So the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, 'Why do your
                          > > > disciples not live
                          > > > > according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled
                          > > > hands?' 6He
                          > > > > said to them, 'Isaiah prophesied rightly about you hypocrites, as
                          > > > it is
                          > > > > written,
                          > > > > "This people honours me with their lips,
                          > > > > but their hearts are far from me;
                          > > > > 7in vain do they worship me,
                          > > > > teaching human precepts as doctrines."
                          > > > > 8You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human tradition.'
                          > > > (Mark
                          > > > > 7:5-8).
                          > > >
                          > > > Managed to rush and throw that together at the last minute, did
                          > > > you? One problem with this appeal to Mark 7 is that you have not
                          > > > demonstated that the belief of the propriety of capital punishment
                          > > > is just a tradition of man. In fact, we saw in Genesis 9 a
                          > > > commandment of God, did we not? (And when you say "the law" above,
                          > > > did the phrase really mean *the Pentateuch* vs. *the Law of
                          > Moses*?)
                          > > >
                          > > > That's all.
                          > > > -Kwame
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Kind regards
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Darryl
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
                          > > > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 4:45 PM
                          > > > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for
                          > Darryl,
                          > > > Part 3
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > Darryl wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > << We can't attempt to tie down the Bible to the "demands of
                          > > > truth
                          > > > > > and logic".>>
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > If you really believe that, then why were you inconsistent as
                          > to
                          > > > use
                          > > > > > biblical passages to argue against capital punishment (that is,
                          > > > up
                          > > > > > until the point where it becomes clear that your appeals to the
                          > > > > > proof texts aren't working)?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > You went on to say:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > << Otherwise we would reject it because of the contradictions
                          > and
                          > > > > > inconsistencies, which do exist, rather than looking at the
                          > > > bigger
                          > > > > > picture. >>
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Ah yes, all those 1001 really obvious Bible contradictions that
                          > > > are
                          > > > > > as obvious as the "inconsistency" in the Romulan homeworld's
                          > > > having
                          > > > > > two names in Star Trek: TOS, or Chekov's being recognized by
                          > > > Khan in
                          > > > > > Star Trek II, etc.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Without my even endorsing all the assertions and arguments of
                          > > > these
                          > > > > > sites, are you aware of the many Web sites that offer
                          > rejoinders
                          > > > to
                          > > > > > the claims of biblical errantists?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Darryl wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > << The Bible is inspired by God, but it was set down by
                          > fallible
                          > > > > > humans, but God still speaks to us through it. >>
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > And He says whatever we want Him to say, right? And one hundred
                          > > > > > years from now when the pendulums of history and ethics have
                          > > > swung
                          > > > > > in the other direction, when Jews have become demonized, when
                          > > > Israel
                          > > > > > has been wiped off the map to the applause of people the world
                          > > > over,
                          > > > > > when Arab immigrants have been run out of Europe while those
                          > who
                          > > > > > remain are just put to death, when old people are put to death
                          > as
                          > > > > > useless eaters, *then* God will be saying that it is a matter
                          > > > > > of "Christian mercy" to kill the old and to rid the world of
                          > the
                          > > > > > Jewish problem, right?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Man, do you even have a good reason to believe that God "speaks
                          > > > > > through" the Bible?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > -Kwame
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                          > > > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                          > > > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole
                          > > Life
                          > > of the Believer
                          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --
                          > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                          > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                          > > > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date:
                          > > 27/10/2006
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > "Life is like a mysterious highway. At times we bypass those who
                          > would
                          > > have made us happy on the other side of the road either because of
                          > our
                          > > hyperopia or myopia" (Hamilton Ayuk).
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
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                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ---------------------------------
                          > > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                          > > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                          > > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole
                          > Life
                          > > of the Believer
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > "Life is like a mysterious highway. At times we bypass those who would
                          > have made us happy on the other side of the road either because of our
                          > hyperopia or myopia" (Hamilton Ayuk).
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                          > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                          > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole Life
                          > of the Believer
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • taliesin@paradise.net.nz
                          Dear Hamilton I am saying what I firmly believe what I based on my understanding of my Lord, but I try not to use the word fact . However, I am pleased you
                          Message 12 of 29 , Nov 2, 2006
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                            Dear Hamilton

                            I am saying what I firmly believe what I based on my understanding of my Lord,
                            but I try not to use the word "fact".

                            However, I am pleased you raised the delicate matter of pharisees.

                            Pharisees placed strict observance of the letter of the law ahead of
                            compassion.

                            No offence intended, but I am pretty certain I know what side they would take
                            in this debate.

                            As you have correctly pointed out, Jesus said he came to perfect the law and
                            not to abolish it. You then quite correctly pointed out that one verse does
                            not a whole doctrine.

                            Kind regards

                            Darryl



                            Quoting Maestrosecret <marck19692000@...>:

                            > Dear Darryl
                            > And yours that people should not be executed is a FACT and a more
                            > Christian one. You know the Bible says to him that is pure all is pure.
                            > On what grounds do you stand to claim that my opinion is not a very
                            > Christian one and yours is? That is called Pharisaism. Then to plunge
                            > yourself into more ridicule you quote one verse; oh sorry, three verses
                            > I guess. To you one verse makes a whole doctrine. I deduce you do not
                            > know Jesus came to perfect the law and not to abolish it. Until then see
                            > you next time.
                            > Hamilton
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > taliesin@... wrote: Dear anonymous
                            >
                            > You say: "However, that does not exempt the fact that people should be
                            > executed."
                            >
                            > That is not a FACT it is your OPINION, and in my humble OPINION, it is
                            > not
                            > very a Christian one at that.
                            >
                            > Just because you have an opinion that you can appear to back up by
                            > selectively
                            > quoting from unrelated parts of the Bible does not make it a "fact".
                            >
                            > Instead of quoting bits of the Bible out of it context to justify your
                            > belief
                            > in killing, you should perhaps be considering the words of Jesus.
                            >
                            > To give but one example:
                            >
                            > Luke 6:3636
                            >
                            > "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
                            >
                            > Why am I not surprised though that those of you who are in favour of
                            > killing
                            > are only quoting from some of the more oppressive parts of the Priestly
                            >
                            > contributions the Pentateuch and the Pauline epistles, but are ignoring
                            > the
                            > Gospels, even though Jesus takes precedence over Paul?
                            >
                            > Kind regards
                            >
                            > Darryl
                            >
                            > Quoting Maestrosecret <marck19692000@...>:
                            >
                            > > The individual is different from the nation. That means; the
                            > individual
                            > > is governed by his convictions and the nation is governed by the law
                            > (I
                            > > Pet 2:13-14). The individual may forgive and pretend to forget but
                            > the
                            > > nation is there to punish the evil doers (Rom 13:3-4). And punishment
                            > as
                            > > deem fitting the crime (even though many people have been put to
                            > death
                            > > unjustified or condemned for nothing) may vary from jail time to
                            > > execution.
                            > > My only problem with the death penalty is not that it is not
                            > biblically
                            > > normative but the Uberrima Fides in applying justice which in most
                            > cases
                            > > is absent. With the present of DNA which in some cases could be
                            > tampered
                            > > with does not guarantee anyone a true outcome in a case where death
                            > is
                            > > sorted. Secondly, the application of jurisprudence to please or
                            > pacify
                            > > the family of the victims is another issue. I hear people say: “now
                            > that
                            > > he is going to die we will find peace and a closure to the case”. The
                            > > sadism behind the execution turns it from punishment for a crime to a
                            > > massacre. However, that does not exempt the fact that people should
                            > be
                            > > executed.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Darryl Ward <taliesin@...> wrote: Dear Kwame
                            > >
                            > > Yes, it was incomplete sentence.
                            > >
                            > > (I suspect that only God has perfect grammar).
                            > >
                            > > It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you are
                            > > going
                            > > to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is this
                            > > context is
                            > > outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion shown by
                            > the
                            > > Jesus.
                            > >
                            > > The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned prisoner.
                            > >
                            > > We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead of
                            > taking
                            > > it
                            > > literally, especially when the words of Older Testament notions of
                            > > justice
                            > > and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.
                            > >
                            > > Kind regards
                            > >
                            > > Darryl
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
                            > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:10 AM
                            > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl,
                            > Part
                            > > 3
                            > >
                            > > > Darryl wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > << Dear Kwame
                            > > >
                            > > > God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture requires
                            > > > us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply take words
                            > > > literallyoff a page without considering their historical context or
                            > > > our presuppositions that affect our hermenutics. >>
                            > > >
                            > > > Incomplete sentence.
                            > > > Anyway, besides your apparently continued misuse of the
                            > > > word "literal" or "literally," you are preaching to the choir.
                            > >
                          • not Yusef
                            My prediction: you will find yourself unable to resist the temptation to respond even to this e-mail. I ll even increase the odds here. I ll throw in an
                            Message 13 of 29 , Nov 2, 2006
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                              My prediction: you will find yourself unable to resist the
                              temptation to respond even to this e-mail.

                              I'll even increase the odds here. I'll throw in an incendiary
                              rhetorical question or two like, "What do theological institutions
                              have to do with anything, Darryl? And are you really suggesting
                              that people in this forum should lay their academic credentials on
                              table before they try to take issue with something said by the Rev.
                              Ward?"

                              -Kwame


                              --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, taliesin@... wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Kwame
                              >
                              > I do not consider that ANY of my arguments have been shot down and
                              nor am I
                              > rewriting history.
                              >
                              > Quoting scripture outside of its historical context does not meet
                              what I
                              > consider to be the threshold of proof.
                              >
                              > In this respect, may I ask what theological institution YOU
                              attended?
                              >
                              > Then I might get some idea as to why it appears that you do not
                              accept some
                              > basic tools of biblical scholarship.
                              >
                              > My arguments are centred on Christ, not words taken out of context
                              that
                              > contradict the very essence of his teachings
                              >
                              > Kind regards
                              >
                              > Darryl
                              >
                              >
                              > Quoting not Yusef <yusefii@...>:
                              >
                              > > Mr. Ward, you had your chance to present a case against the idea
                              > > that it is the will of God (who as the NT says is a consuming
                              fire
                              > > and will punish those who do evil whether sooner or later) that
                              > > capital punishment be carried out.
                              > >
                              > > You made your case for "Christian compassion," and this case was
                              > > followed up by inconvenient reminders that wrath and punishment
                              are
                              > > present even in the NT.
                              > >
                              > > You also made your case from John 8:3-11 and other proof texts,
                              and
                              > > this case was followed up by an analysis of those texts; the
                              > > arguments that were made contrary to both of the foregoing cases
                              > > have not yet been shown to be either invalid or unsound. You
                              > > haven't shown any counterexamples to the arguments; in fact, you
                              > > keep inventing new arguments against capital punishment every 24
                              > > hours, and they keep getting shot down or rendered moot every 24
                              > > hours, and now you are attempting to rewrite history.
                              > >
                              > > I don't need to say anything more on this issue. The archives of
                              > > this forum are available for everyone to browse and read at
                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apologetics/
                              > > Your desire to get the last word in, or to have a sense of being
                              > > right, or to subvert the teachings of the Bible, is clear for
                              > > everyone to see.
                              > >
                              > > Cheers,
                              > > Kwame
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, Darryl Ward wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if
                              you
                              > > are going
                              > > > to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is
                              this
                              > > context is
                              > > > outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion
                              shown
                              > > by the
                              > > > Jesus.
                              > > >
                              > > > The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned
                              > > prisoner.
                              > > >
                              > > > We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead
                              of
                              > > taking it
                              > > > literally, especially when the words of Older Testament
                              notions of
                              > > justice
                              > > > and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.
                              > > >
                              > > > Kind regards
                              > > >
                              > > > Darryl
                              > > >
                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@>
                              > > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:10 AM
                              > > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for
                              Darryl,
                              > > Part 3
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > > Darryl wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > << Dear Kwame
                              > > > >
                              > > > > God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture
                              > > requires
                              > > > > us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply
                              take
                              > > words
                              > > > > literallyoff a page without considering their historical
                              context
                              > > or
                              > > > > our presuppositions that affect our hermenutics. >>
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Incomplete sentence.
                              > > > > Anyway, besides your apparently continued misuse of the
                              > > > > word "literal" or "literally," you are preaching to the
                              choir.
                              > > > > Meanwhile, this appeal of yours to concerns of intellect,
                              context
                              > > > > and presuppositions does nothing to change the established
                              facts
                              > > of
                              > > > > the case against capital punishment, and it does nothing to
                              > > change
                              > > > > the fact that you have not backed up your claim that the
                              Bible's
                              > > got
                              > > > > all these self-contradictions and stuff.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > If you don't have the time to deliver a smart and well-
                              thought-
                              > > out
                              > > > > response, then there is no need to rush together a hasty
                              > > response,
                              > > > > you know.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Darryl wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > > My last word on state-sanctioned murder is that Jesus
                              > > frequently
                              > > > > was at odds
                              > > > > > with tehauthorities because he put compassion ahead strict
                              > > > > interpreation of
                              > > > > > the law.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > 5So the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, 'Why do your
                              > > > > disciples not live
                              > > > > > according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with
                              defiled
                              > > > > hands?' 6He
                              > > > > > said to them, 'Isaiah prophesied rightly about you
                              hypocrites,
                              > > as
                              > > > > it is
                              > > > > > written,
                              > > > > > "This people honours me with their lips,
                              > > > > > but their hearts are far from me;
                              > > > > > 7in vain do they worship me,
                              > > > > > teaching human precepts as doctrines."
                              > > > > > 8You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human
                              > > tradition.'
                              > > > > (Mark
                              > > > > > 7:5-8).
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Managed to rush and throw that together at the last minute,
                              did
                              > > > > you? One problem with this appeal to Mark 7 is that you have
                              not
                              > > > > demonstated that the belief of the propriety of capital
                              > > punishment
                              > > > > is just a tradition of man. In fact, we saw in Genesis 9 a
                              > > > > commandment of God, did we not? (And when you say "the law"
                              > > above,
                              > > > > did the phrase really mean *the Pentateuch* vs. *the Law of
                              > > Moses*?)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > That's all.
                              > > > > -Kwame
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Kind regards
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Darryl
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@>
                              > > > > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 4:45 PM
                              > > > > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for
                              > > Darryl,
                              > > > > Part 3
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Darryl wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > << We can't attempt to tie down the Bible to
                              the "demands of
                              > > > > truth
                              > > > > > > and logic".>>
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > If you really believe that, then why were you
                              inconsistent
                              > > as to
                              > > > > use
                              > > > > > > biblical passages to argue against capital punishment
                              (that
                              > > is,
                              > > > > up
                              > > > > > > until the point where it becomes clear that your appeals
                              to
                              > > the
                              > > > > > > proof texts aren't working)?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > You went on to say:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > << Otherwise we would reject it because of the
                              > > contradictions and
                              > > > > > > inconsistencies, which do exist, rather than looking at
                              the
                              > > > > bigger
                              > > > > > > picture. >>
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Ah yes, all those 1001 really obvious Bible
                              contradictions
                              > > that
                              > > > > are
                              > > > > > > as obvious as the "inconsistency" in the Romulan
                              homeworld's
                              > > > > having
                              > > > > > > two names in Star Trek: TOS, or Chekov's being
                              recognized by
                              > > > > Khan in
                              > > > > > > Star Trek II, etc.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Without my even endorsing all the assertions and
                              arguments of
                              > > > > these
                              > > > > > > sites, are you aware of the many Web sites that offer
                              > > rejoinders
                              > > > > to
                              > > > > > > the claims of biblical errantists?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Darryl wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > << The Bible is inspired by God, but it was set down by
                              > > fallible
                              > > > > > > humans, but God still speaks to us through it. >>
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > And He says whatever we want Him to say, right? And one
                              > > hundred
                              > > > > > > years from now when the pendulums of history and ethics
                              have
                              > > > > swung
                              > > > > > > in the other direction, when Jews have become demonized,
                              when
                              > > > > Israel
                              > > > > > > has been wiped off the map to the applause of people the
                              > > world
                              > > > > over,
                              > > > > > > when Arab immigrants have been run out of Europe while
                              those
                              > > who
                              > > > > > > remain are just put to death, when old people are put to
                              > > death as
                              > > > > > > useless eaters, *then* God will be saying that it is a
                              matter
                              > > > > > > of "Christian mercy" to kill the old and to rid the
                              world of
                              > > the
                              > > > > > > Jewish problem, right?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Man, do you even have a good reason to believe that
                              > > God "speaks
                              > > > > > > through" the Bible?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > -Kwame
                            • taliesin@paradise.net.nz
                              Dear Kwame The purpose of my question was to try to find out what methods of studying and interpreting the scriptures are used by you and others here as well
                              Message 14 of 29 , Nov 2, 2006
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                                Dear Kwame

                                The purpose of my question was to try to find out what methods of studying and
                                interpreting the scriptures are used by you and others here as well as to try
                                to get some idea of what hermeneutics you are using.

                                That might just help us reveal why we find ourselves arriving at different
                                inerepretations.

                                Kind regards

                                Darryl

                                P.S. - I am not ordained so I do not have the distinction of having the
                                title "Reverend".


                                Quoting not Yusef <yusefii@...>:

                                > My prediction: you will find yourself unable to resist the
                                > temptation to respond even to this e-mail.
                                >
                                > I'll even increase the odds here. I'll throw in an incendiary
                                > rhetorical question or two like, "What do theological institutions
                                > have to do with anything, Darryl? And are you really suggesting
                                > that people in this forum should lay their academic credentials on
                                > table before they try to take issue with something said by the Rev.
                                > Ward?"
                                >
                                > -Kwame
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, taliesin@... wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Dear Kwame
                                > >
                                > > I do not consider that ANY of my arguments have been shot down and
                                > nor am I
                                > > rewriting history.
                                > >
                                > > Quoting scripture outside of its historical context does not meet
                                > what I
                                > > consider to be the threshold of proof.
                                > >
                                > > In this respect, may I ask what theological institution YOU
                                > attended?
                                > >
                                > > Then I might get some idea as to why it appears that you do not
                                > accept some
                                > > basic tools of biblical scholarship.
                                > >
                                > > My arguments are centred on Christ, not words taken out of context
                                > that
                                > > contradict the very essence of his teachings
                                > >
                                > > Kind regards
                                > >
                                > > Darryl
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Quoting not Yusef <yusefii@...>:
                                > >
                                > > > Mr. Ward, you had your chance to present a case against the idea
                                > > > that it is the will of God (who as the NT says is a consuming
                                > fire
                                > > > and will punish those who do evil whether sooner or later) that
                                > > > capital punishment be carried out.
                                > > >
                                > > > You made your case for "Christian compassion," and this case was
                                > > > followed up by inconvenient reminders that wrath and punishment
                                > are
                                > > > present even in the NT.
                                > > >
                                > > > You also made your case from John 8:3-11 and other proof texts,
                                > and
                                > > > this case was followed up by an analysis of those texts; the
                                > > > arguments that were made contrary to both of the foregoing cases
                                > > > have not yet been shown to be either invalid or unsound. You
                                > > > haven't shown any counterexamples to the arguments; in fact, you
                                > > > keep inventing new arguments against capital punishment every 24
                                > > > hours, and they keep getting shot down or rendered moot every 24
                                > > > hours, and now you are attempting to rewrite history.
                                > > >
                                > > > I don't need to say anything more on this issue. The archives of
                                > > > this forum are available for everyone to browse and read at
                                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apologetics/
                                > > > Your desire to get the last word in, or to have a sense of being
                                > > > right, or to subvert the teachings of the Bible, is clear for
                                > > > everyone to see.
                                > > >
                                > > > Cheers,
                                > > > Kwame
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, Darryl Ward wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if
                                > you
                                > > > are going
                                > > > > to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is
                                > this
                                > > > context is
                                > > > > outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion
                                > shown
                                > > > by the
                                > > > > Jesus.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned
                                > > > prisoner.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead
                                > of
                                > > > taking it
                                > > > > literally, especially when the words of Older Testament
                                > notions of
                                > > > justice
                                > > > > and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Kind regards
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Darryl
                                > > > >
                                > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@>
                                > > > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:10 AM
                                > > > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for
                                > Darryl,
                                > > > Part 3
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > Darryl wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > << Dear Kwame
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture
                                > > > requires
                                > > > > > us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply
                                > take
                                > > > words
                                > > > > > literallyoff a page without considering their historical
                                > context
                                > > > or
                                > > > > > our presuppositions that affect our hermenutics. >>
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Incomplete sentence.
                                > > > > > Anyway, besides your apparently continued misuse of the
                                > > > > > word "literal" or "literally," you are preaching to the
                                > choir.
                                > > > > > Meanwhile, this appeal of yours to concerns of intellect,
                                > context
                                > > > > > and presuppositions does nothing to change the established
                                > facts
                                > > > of
                                > > > > > the case against capital punishment, and it does nothing to
                                > > > change
                                > > > > > the fact that you have not backed up your claim that the
                                > Bible's
                                > > > got
                                > > > > > all these self-contradictions and stuff.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > If you don't have the time to deliver a smart and well-
                                > thought-
                                > > > out
                                > > > > > response, then there is no need to rush together a hasty
                                > > > response,
                                > > > > > you know.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Darryl wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > > My last word on state-sanctioned murder is that Jesus
                                > > > frequently
                                > > > > > was at odds
                                > > > > > > with tehauthorities because he put compassion ahead strict
                                > > > > > interpreation of
                                > > > > > > the law.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > 5So the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, 'Why do your
                                > > > > > disciples not live
                                > > > > > > according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with
                                > defiled
                                > > > > > hands?' 6He
                                > > > > > > said to them, 'Isaiah prophesied rightly about you
                                > hypocrites,
                                > > > as
                                > > > > > it is
                                > > > > > > written,
                                > > > > > > "This people honours me with their lips,
                                > > > > > > but their hearts are far from me;
                                > > > > > > 7in vain do they worship me,
                                > > > > > > teaching human precepts as doctrines."
                                > > > > > > 8You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human
                                > > > tradition.'
                                > > > > > (Mark
                                > > > > > > 7:5-8).
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Managed to rush and throw that together at the last minute,
                                > did
                                > > > > > you? One problem with this appeal to Mark 7 is that you have
                                > not
                                > > > > > demonstated that the belief of the propriety of capital
                                > > > punishment
                                > > > > > is just a tradition of man. In fact, we saw in Genesis 9 a
                                > > > > > commandment of God, did we not? (And when you say "the law"
                                > > > above,
                                > > > > > did the phrase really mean *the Pentateuch* vs. *the Law of
                                > > > Moses*?)
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > That's all.
                                > > > > > -Kwame
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Kind regards
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Darryl
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > > > > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@>
                                > > > > > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 4:45 PM
                                > > > > > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for
                                > > > Darryl,
                                > > > > > Part 3
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Darryl wrote:
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > << We can't attempt to tie down the Bible to
                                > the "demands of
                                > > > > > truth
                                > > > > > > > and logic".>>
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > If you really believe that, then why were you
                                > inconsistent
                                > > > as to
                                > > > > > use
                                > > > > > > > biblical passages to argue against capital punishment
                                > (that
                                > > > is,
                                > > > > > up
                                > > > > > > > until the point where it becomes clear that your appeals
                                > to
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > > > proof texts aren't working)?
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > You went on to say:
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > << Otherwise we would reject it because of the
                                > > > contradictions and
                                > > > > > > > inconsistencies, which do exist, rather than looking at
                                > the
                                > > > > > bigger
                                > > > > > > > picture. >>
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Ah yes, all those 1001 really obvious Bible
                                > contradictions
                                > > > that
                                > > > > > are
                                > > > > > > > as obvious as the "inconsistency" in the Romulan
                                > homeworld's
                                > > > > > having
                                > > > > > > > two names in Star Trek: TOS, or Chekov's being
                                > recognized by
                                > > > > > Khan in
                                > > > > > > > Star Trek II, etc.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Without my even endorsing all the assertions and
                                > arguments of
                                > > > > > these
                                > > > > > > > sites, are you aware of the many Web sites that offer
                                > > > rejoinders
                                > > > > > to
                                > > > > > > > the claims of biblical errantists?
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Darryl wrote:
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > << The Bible is inspired by God, but it was set down by
                                > > > fallible
                                > > > > > > > humans, but God still speaks to us through it. >>
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > And He says whatever we want Him to say, right? And one
                                > > > hundred
                                > > > > > > > years from now when the pendulums of history and ethics
                                > have
                                > > > > > swung
                                > > > > > > > in the other direction, when Jews have become demonized,
                                > when
                                > > > > > Israel
                                > > > > > > > has been wiped off the map to the applause of people the
                                > > > world
                                > > > > > over,
                                > > > > > > > when Arab immigrants have been run out of Europe while
                                > those
                                > > > who
                                > > > > > > > remain are just put to death, when old people are put to
                                > > > death as
                                > > > > > > > useless eaters, *then* God will be saying that it is a
                                > matter
                                > > > > > > > of "Christian mercy" to kill the old and to rid the
                                > world of
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > > > Jewish problem, right?
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Man, do you even have a good reason to believe that
                                > > > God "speaks
                                > > > > > > > through" the Bible?
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > -Kwame
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                              • Shaun Green
                                Dear Darryl ... Are you sure that was not merely a metaphor for... ...oh I don t know... ...maybe someone more mature can come up with something? ;-) He
                                Message 15 of 29 , Nov 3, 2006
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                                  Dear Darryl

                                  In the sand, you traced:
                                  > You ask how did I "come by this knowledge of Jesus"?
                                  >
                                  > By reading the Bible!
                                  >
                                  > ESPECIALLY the Gospels!
                                  >
                                  > Jesus showed compassion and forgiveness and saved a woman from execution by
                                  > asking who amongst her sinners was without sin!
                                  >

                                  Are you sure that was not merely a metaphor for...
                                  ...oh I don't know...
                                  ...maybe someone more "mature" can come up with something? ;-)

                                  He had mercy on me too. Why, remains a mystery. I dare not question
                                  His prerogative.

                                  Romans 9:14-18
                                  14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
                                  15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,
                                  and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
                                  16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but
                                  of God that sheweth mercy.
                                  17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have
                                  I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name
                                  might be declared throughout all the earth.
                                  18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy...

                                  > I accept that the word of God can never be outdated, but I do consider that
                                  > some parts, (e.g. Genesis 1-11) are more metaphorical than literal, which to
                                  > me is no more scandalous than saying that Jesus spoke in parables.
                                  >

                                  When Jesus used parables it is patently clear that he is speaking in
                                  metaphors. If I am not mistaken, His parables are always clearly
                                  prefixed, for example Matthew 13:3
                                  "And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower
                                  went forth to sow..."

                                  I am sure I have asked this question before:
                                  Please provide us with some examples of Scripture that you are prepared
                                  to take literally.

                                  Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, what would you say are are the
                                  supposed "metaphors" in Genesis 1-11 a picture of?

                                  > I also accept that as God's revelation to us through the Scriptures is ongoing
                                  > as our interpretations mature, e.g. few people would now accept that Genesis 9
                                  > still authorises slavery or that women may nor preach because of the social
                                  > context of Paul's teaching.
                                  >

                                  This does not seem to be "a sure foundation".

                                  He says in Numbers 23:18-19
                                  18 And he took up his parable, and said, Rise up, Balak, and hear;
                                  hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor:
                                  19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he
                                  should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken,
                                  and shall he not make it good?

                                  > Most western countries now accept that capital punishment no longer has a
                                  > place in any civilised country, and nobody has shown me anything to suggest
                                  > that Jesus would take any different view.
                                  >

                                  I take it from this logic that you not regard truth as unchanging and
                                  objective?

                                  Not only can we see the results of this in society, bur Psalm 2:1-4
                                  gives us God's response:
                                  1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
                                  2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel
                                  together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
                                  3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
                                  4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them
                                  in derision.

                                  > (forget about Paul for now)
                                  >

                                  Why? This is Holy Scripture; no part can be interpreted outside of the
                                  whole. So far it seems you would like us to forget Paul, and consider
                                  Genesis outdated. Would you care to relegate any other parts of
                                  Scripture to irrelevance?

                                  You previously claimed that there are places where:
                                  "the words of Older Testament notions of justice and retribution are at
                                  odds with the actions of Jesus."

                                  Please supply references for this claim.

                                  Thank you

                                  Literally an object of His mercy
                                  Shaun Green

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                                • Maestrosecret
                                  Dear Darryl, There is a dichotomy between conviction and rational or jurisprudence. The Law of the land says if you voluntarily kill you should be executed. If
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Nov 3, 2006
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                                    Dear Darryl,
                                    There is a dichotomy between conviction and rational or jurisprudence. The Law of the land says if you voluntarily kill you should be executed. If your conviction is that people should not be killed when they kill then try hard to inform them that killing will enable those whose conviction is that killing should result to killing will execute them. In addition, you say that is what you believe. I do too but if there are people who want to uphold that part of the law that is their conviction and yours should not override theirs on biblical pretense.
                                    Hamilton

                                    taliesin@... wrote: Dear Hamilton

                                    I am saying what I firmly believe what I based on my understanding of my Lord,
                                    but I try not to use the word "fact".

                                    However, I am pleased you raised the delicate matter of pharisees.

                                    Pharisees placed strict observance of the letter of the law ahead of
                                    compassion.

                                    No offence intended, but I am pretty certain I know what side they would take
                                    in this debate.

                                    As you have correctly pointed out, Jesus said he came to perfect the law and
                                    not to abolish it. You then quite correctly pointed out that one verse does
                                    not a whole doctrine.

                                    Kind regards

                                    Darryl

                                    Quoting Maestrosecret <marck19692000@...>:

                                    > Dear Darryl
                                    > And yours that people should not be executed is a FACT and a more
                                    > Christian one. You know the Bible says to him that is pure all is pure.
                                    > On what grounds do you stand to claim that my opinion is not a very
                                    > Christian one and yours is? That is called Pharisaism. Then to plunge
                                    > yourself into more ridicule you quote one verse; oh sorry, three verses
                                    > I guess. To you one verse makes a whole doctrine. I deduce you do not
                                    > know Jesus came to perfect the law and not to abolish it. Until then see
                                    > you next time.
                                    > Hamilton
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > taliesin@... wrote: Dear anonymous
                                    >
                                    > You say: "However, that does not exempt the fact that people should be
                                    > executed."
                                    >
                                    > That is not a FACT it is your OPINION, and in my humble OPINION, it is
                                    > not
                                    > very a Christian one at that.
                                    >
                                    > Just because you have an opinion that you can appear to back up by
                                    > selectively
                                    > quoting from unrelated parts of the Bible does not make it a "fact".
                                    >
                                    > Instead of quoting bits of the Bible out of it context to justify your
                                    > belief
                                    > in killing, you should perhaps be considering the words of Jesus.
                                    >
                                    > To give but one example:
                                    >
                                    > Luke 6:3636
                                    >
                                    > "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
                                    >
                                    > Why am I not surprised though that those of you who are in favour of
                                    > killing
                                    > are only quoting from some of the more oppressive parts of the Priestly
                                    >
                                    > contributions the Pentateuch and the Pauline epistles, but are ignoring
                                    > the
                                    > Gospels, even though Jesus takes precedence over Paul?
                                    >
                                    > Kind regards
                                    >
                                    > Darryl
                                    >
                                    > Quoting Maestrosecret <marck19692000@...>:
                                    >
                                    > > The individual is different from the nation. That means; the
                                    > individual
                                    > > is governed by his convictions and the nation is governed by the law
                                    > (I
                                    > > Pet 2:13-14). The individual may forgive and pretend to forget but
                                    > the
                                    > > nation is there to punish the evil doers (Rom 13:3-4). And punishment
                                    > as
                                    > > deem fitting the crime (even though many people have been put to
                                    > death
                                    > > unjustified or condemned for nothing) may vary from jail time to
                                    > > execution.
                                    > > My only problem with the death penalty is not that it is not
                                    > biblically
                                    > > normative but the Uberrima Fides in applying justice which in most
                                    > cases
                                    > > is absent. With the present of DNA which in some cases could be
                                    > tampered
                                    > > with does not guarantee anyone a true outcome in a case where death
                                    > is
                                    > > sorted. Secondly, the application of jurisprudence to please or
                                    > pacify
                                    > > the family of the victims is another issue. I hear people say: “now
                                    > that
                                    > > he is going to die we will find peace and a closure to the case”. The
                                    > > sadism behind the execution turns it from punishment for a crime to a
                                    > > massacre. However, that does not exempt the fact that people should
                                    > be
                                    > > executed.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Darryl Ward <taliesin@...> wrote: Dear Kwame
                                    > >
                                    > > Yes, it was incomplete sentence.
                                    > >
                                    > > (I suspect that only God has perfect grammar).
                                    > >
                                    > > It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you are
                                    > > going
                                    > > to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is this
                                    > > context is
                                    > > outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion shown by
                                    > the
                                    > > Jesus.
                                    > >
                                    > > The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned prisoner.
                                    > >
                                    > > We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead of
                                    > taking
                                    > > it
                                    > > literally, especially when the words of Older Testament notions of
                                    > > justice
                                    > > and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.
                                    > >
                                    > > Kind regards
                                    > >
                                    > > Darryl
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
                                    > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:10 AM
                                    > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl,
                                    > Part
                                    > > 3
                                    > >
                                    > > > Darryl wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > << Dear Kwame
                                    > > >
                                    > > > God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture requires
                                    > > > us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply take words
                                    > > > literallyoff a page without considering their historical context or
                                    > > > our presuppositions that affect our hermenutics. >>
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Incomplete sentence.
                                    > > > Anyway, besides your apparently continued misuse of the
                                    > > > word "literal" or "literally," you are preaching to the choir.
                                    > >





                                    "Life is like a mysterious highway. At times we bypass those who would have made us happy on the other side of the road either because of our hyperopia or myopia" (Hamilton Ayuk).




























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                                  • Darryl Ward
                                    Dear Hamilton I am not sure what country you are from, but the law of the land in most true democracies countries does NOT say that. To the best of my
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Nov 3, 2006
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                                      Dear Hamilton

                                      I am not sure what country you are from, but the law of the land in most
                                      true democracies countries does NOT say that. To the best of my knowledge,
                                      it is only Japan and most (but not all) states of the USA that have not yet
                                      abolished capital punishment.

                                      BTW, the USA does not have a low murder rate.

                                      That to me suggests that the "eye for an eye" concept of justice (that Jesus
                                      took us beyond) does not work.

                                      Also, over-riding people's opinions may well not be nice, but it is much
                                      nicer than killing people.

                                      Kind regards

                                      Darryl

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Maestrosecret" <marck19692000@...>
                                      To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:13 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl, Part
                                      3


                                      Dear Darryl,
                                      There is a dichotomy between conviction and rational or jurisprudence. The
                                      Law of the land says if you voluntarily kill you should be executed. If your
                                      conviction is that people should not be killed when they kill then try hard
                                      to inform them that killing will enable those whose conviction is that
                                      killing should result to killing will execute them. In addition, you say
                                      that is what you believe. I do too but if there are people who want to
                                      uphold that part of the law that is their conviction and yours should not
                                      override theirs on biblical pretense.
                                      Hamilton

                                      taliesin@... wrote: Dear Hamilton

                                      I am saying what I firmly believe what I based on my understanding of my
                                      Lord,
                                      but I try not to use the word "fact".

                                      However, I am pleased you raised the delicate matter of pharisees.

                                      Pharisees placed strict observance of the letter of the law ahead of
                                      compassion.

                                      No offence intended, but I am pretty certain I know what side they would
                                      take
                                      in this debate.

                                      As you have correctly pointed out, Jesus said he came to perfect the law and
                                      not to abolish it. You then quite correctly pointed out that one verse does
                                      not a whole doctrine.

                                      Kind regards

                                      Darryl

                                      Quoting Maestrosecret <marck19692000@...>:

                                      > Dear Darryl
                                      > And yours that people should not be executed is a FACT and a more
                                      > Christian one. You know the Bible says to him that is pure all is pure.
                                      > On what grounds do you stand to claim that my opinion is not a very
                                      > Christian one and yours is? That is called Pharisaism. Then to plunge
                                      > yourself into more ridicule you quote one verse; oh sorry, three verses
                                      > I guess. To you one verse makes a whole doctrine. I deduce you do not
                                      > know Jesus came to perfect the law and not to abolish it. Until then see
                                      > you next time.
                                      > Hamilton
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > taliesin@... wrote: Dear anonymous
                                      >
                                      > You say: "However, that does not exempt the fact that people should be
                                      > executed."
                                      >
                                      > That is not a FACT it is your OPINION, and in my humble OPINION, it is
                                      > not
                                      > very a Christian one at that.
                                      >
                                      > Just because you have an opinion that you can appear to back up by
                                      > selectively
                                      > quoting from unrelated parts of the Bible does not make it a "fact".
                                      >
                                      > Instead of quoting bits of the Bible out of it context to justify your
                                      > belief
                                      > in killing, you should perhaps be considering the words of Jesus.
                                      >
                                      > To give but one example:
                                      >
                                      > Luke 6:3636
                                      >
                                      > "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
                                      >
                                      > Why am I not surprised though that those of you who are in favour of
                                      > killing
                                      > are only quoting from some of the more oppressive parts of the Priestly
                                      >
                                      > contributions the Pentateuch and the Pauline epistles, but are ignoring
                                      > the
                                      > Gospels, even though Jesus takes precedence over Paul?
                                      >
                                      > Kind regards
                                      >
                                      > Darryl
                                      >
                                      > Quoting Maestrosecret <marck19692000@...>:
                                      >
                                      > > The individual is different from the nation. That means; the
                                      > individual
                                      > > is governed by his convictions and the nation is governed by the law
                                      > (I
                                      > > Pet 2:13-14). The individual may forgive and pretend to forget but
                                      > the
                                      > > nation is there to punish the evil doers (Rom 13:3-4). And punishment
                                      > as
                                      > > deem fitting the crime (even though many people have been put to
                                      > death
                                      > > unjustified or condemned for nothing) may vary from jail time to
                                      > > execution.
                                      > > My only problem with the death penalty is not that it is not
                                      > biblically
                                      > > normative but the Uberrima Fides in applying justice which in most
                                      > cases
                                      > > is absent. With the present of DNA which in some cases could be
                                      > tampered
                                      > > with does not guarantee anyone a true outcome in a case where death
                                      > is
                                      > > sorted. Secondly, the application of jurisprudence to please or
                                      > pacify
                                      > > the family of the victims is another issue. I hear people say: "now
                                      > that
                                      > > he is going to die we will find peace and a closure to the case". The
                                      > > sadism behind the execution turns it from punishment for a crime to a
                                      > > massacre. However, that does not exempt the fact that people should
                                      > be
                                      > > executed.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Darryl Ward <taliesin@...> wrote: Dear Kwame
                                      > >
                                      > > Yes, it was incomplete sentence.
                                      > >
                                      > > (I suspect that only God has perfect grammar).
                                      > >
                                      > > It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you are
                                      > > going
                                      > > to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is this
                                      > > context is
                                      > > outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion shown by
                                      > the
                                      > > Jesus.
                                      > >
                                      > > The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned prisoner.
                                      > >
                                      > > We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead of
                                      > taking
                                      > > it
                                      > > literally, especially when the words of Older Testament notions of
                                      > > justice
                                      > > and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.
                                      > >
                                      > > Kind regards
                                      > >
                                      > > Darryl
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
                                      > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:10 AM
                                      > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl,
                                      > Part
                                      > > 3
                                      > >
                                      > > > Darryl wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > << Dear Kwame
                                      > > >
                                      > > > God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture requires
                                      > > > us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply take words
                                      > > > literallyoff a page without considering their historical context or
                                      > > > our presuppositions that affect our hermenutics. >>
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Incomplete sentence.
                                      > > > Anyway, besides your apparently continued misuse of the
                                      > > > word "literal" or "literally," you are preaching to the choir.
                                      > >





                                      "Life is like a mysterious highway. At times we bypass those who would have
                                      made us happy on the other side of the road either because of our hyperopia
                                      or myopia" (Hamilton Ayuk).




























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                                    • Maestrosecret
                                      I am from CAMEROON Darryl Ward wrote: Dear Hamilton I am not sure what country you are from, but the law of the land in
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Nov 3, 2006
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                                        I am from CAMEROON

                                        Darryl Ward <taliesin@...> wrote: Dear Hamilton

                                        I am not sure what country you are from, but the law of the land in most
                                        true democracies countries does NOT say that. To the best of my knowledge,
                                        it is only Japan and most (but not all) states of the USA that have not yet
                                        abolished capital punishment.

                                        BTW, the USA does not have a low murder rate.

                                        That to me suggests that the "eye for an eye" concept of justice (that Jesus
                                        took us beyond) does not work.

                                        Also, over-riding people's opinions may well not be nice, but it is much
                                        nicer than killing people.

                                        Kind regards

                                        Darryl

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Maestrosecret" <marck19692000@...>
                                        To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:13 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl, Part
                                        3

                                        Dear Darryl,
                                        There is a dichotomy between conviction and rational or jurisprudence. The
                                        Law of the land says if you voluntarily kill you should be executed. If your
                                        conviction is that people should not be killed when they kill then try hard
                                        to inform them that killing will enable those whose conviction is that
                                        killing should result to killing will execute them. In addition, you say
                                        that is what you believe. I do too but if there are people who want to
                                        uphold that part of the law that is their conviction and yours should not
                                        override theirs on biblical pretense.
                                        Hamilton

                                        taliesin@... wrote: Dear Hamilton

                                        I am saying what I firmly believe what I based on my understanding of my
                                        Lord,
                                        but I try not to use the word "fact".

                                        However, I am pleased you raised the delicate matter of pharisees.

                                        Pharisees placed strict observance of the letter of the law ahead of
                                        compassion.

                                        No offence intended, but I am pretty certain I know what side they would
                                        take
                                        in this debate.

                                        As you have correctly pointed out, Jesus said he came to perfect the law and
                                        not to abolish it. You then quite correctly pointed out that one verse does
                                        not a whole doctrine.

                                        Kind regards

                                        Darryl

                                        Quoting Maestrosecret <marck19692000@...>:

                                        > Dear Darryl
                                        > And yours that people should not be executed is a FACT and a more
                                        > Christian one. You know the Bible says to him that is pure all is pure.
                                        > On what grounds do you stand to claim that my opinion is not a very
                                        > Christian one and yours is? That is called Pharisaism. Then to plunge
                                        > yourself into more ridicule you quote one verse; oh sorry, three verses
                                        > I guess. To you one verse makes a whole doctrine. I deduce you do not
                                        > know Jesus came to perfect the law and not to abolish it. Until then see
                                        > you next time.
                                        > Hamilton
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > taliesin@... wrote: Dear anonymous
                                        >
                                        > You say: "However, that does not exempt the fact that people should be
                                        > executed."
                                        >
                                        > That is not a FACT it is your OPINION, and in my humble OPINION, it is
                                        > not
                                        > very a Christian one at that.
                                        >
                                        > Just because you have an opinion that you can appear to back up by
                                        > selectively
                                        > quoting from unrelated parts of the Bible does not make it a "fact".
                                        >
                                        > Instead of quoting bits of the Bible out of it context to justify your
                                        > belief
                                        > in killing, you should perhaps be considering the words of Jesus.
                                        >
                                        > To give but one example:
                                        >
                                        > Luke 6:3636
                                        >
                                        > "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
                                        >
                                        > Why am I not surprised though that those of you who are in favour of
                                        > killing
                                        > are only quoting from some of the more oppressive parts of the Priestly
                                        >
                                        > contributions the Pentateuch and the Pauline epistles, but are ignoring
                                        > the
                                        > Gospels, even though Jesus takes precedence over Paul?
                                        >
                                        > Kind regards
                                        >
                                        > Darryl
                                        >
                                        > Quoting Maestrosecret <marck19692000@...>:
                                        >
                                        > > The individual is different from the nation. That means; the
                                        > individual
                                        > > is governed by his convictions and the nation is governed by the law
                                        > (I
                                        > > Pet 2:13-14). The individual may forgive and pretend to forget but
                                        > the
                                        > > nation is there to punish the evil doers (Rom 13:3-4). And punishment
                                        > as
                                        > > deem fitting the crime (even though many people have been put to
                                        > death
                                        > > unjustified or condemned for nothing) may vary from jail time to
                                        > > execution.
                                        > > My only problem with the death penalty is not that it is not
                                        > biblically
                                        > > normative but the Uberrima Fides in applying justice which in most
                                        > cases
                                        > > is absent. With the present of DNA which in some cases could be
                                        > tampered
                                        > > with does not guarantee anyone a true outcome in a case where death
                                        > is
                                        > > sorted. Secondly, the application of jurisprudence to please or
                                        > pacify
                                        > > the family of the victims is another issue. I hear people say: "now
                                        > that
                                        > > he is going to die we will find peace and a closure to the case". The
                                        > > sadism behind the execution turns it from punishment for a crime to a
                                        > > massacre. However, that does not exempt the fact that people should
                                        > be
                                        > > executed.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Darryl Ward <taliesin@...> wrote: Dear Kwame
                                        > >
                                        > > Yes, it was incomplete sentence.
                                        > >
                                        > > (I suspect that only God has perfect grammar).
                                        > >
                                        > > It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you are
                                        > > going
                                        > > to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is this
                                        > > context is
                                        > > outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion shown by
                                        > the
                                        > > Jesus.
                                        > >
                                        > > The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned prisoner.
                                        > >
                                        > > We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead of
                                        > taking
                                        > > it
                                        > > literally, especially when the words of Older Testament notions of
                                        > > justice
                                        > > and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.
                                        > >
                                        > > Kind regards
                                        > >
                                        > > Darryl
                                        > >
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
                                        > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:10 AM
                                        > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl,
                                        > Part
                                        > > 3
                                        > >
                                        > > > Darryl wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > << Dear Kwame
                                        > > >
                                        > > > God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture requires
                                        > > > us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply take words
                                        > > > literallyoff a page without considering their historical context or
                                        > > > our presuppositions that affect our hermenutics. >>
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Incomplete sentence.
                                        > > > Anyway, besides your apparently continued misuse of the
                                        > > > word "literal" or "literally," you are preaching to the choir.
                                        > >

                                        "Life is like a mysterious highway. At times we bypass those who would have
                                        made us happy on the other side of the road either because of our hyperopia
                                        or myopia" (Hamilton Ayuk).

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                                      • Darryl Ward
                                        Glad to meet you I have friends from many parts of Africa - but I have not met anyone from Cameroon before. Kind regards Darryl ... From: Maestrosecret
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Nov 3, 2006
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                                          Glad to meet you

                                          I have friends from many parts of Africa - but I have not met anyone from
                                          Cameroon before.

                                          Kind regards

                                          Darryl

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "Maestrosecret" <marck19692000@...>
                                          To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 1:12 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl, Part
                                          3


                                          > I am from CAMEROON
                                          >
                                          > Darryl Ward <taliesin@...> wrote: Dear Hamilton
                                          >
                                          > I am not sure what country you are from, but the law of the land in most
                                          > true democracies countries does NOT say that. To the best of my knowledge,
                                          > it is only Japan and most (but not all) states of the USA that have not
                                          yet
                                          > abolished capital punishment.
                                          >
                                          > BTW, the USA does not have a low murder rate.
                                          >
                                          > That to me suggests that the "eye for an eye" concept of justice (that
                                          Jesus
                                          > took us beyond) does not work.
                                          >
                                          > Also, over-riding people's opinions may well not be nice, but it is much
                                          > nicer than killing people.
                                          >
                                          > Kind regards
                                          >
                                          > Darryl
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: "Maestrosecret" <marck19692000@...>
                                          > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:13 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl,
                                          Part
                                          > 3
                                          >
                                          > Dear Darryl,
                                          > There is a dichotomy between conviction and rational or jurisprudence. The
                                          > Law of the land says if you voluntarily kill you should be executed. If
                                          your
                                          > conviction is that people should not be killed when they kill then try
                                          hard
                                          > to inform them that killing will enable those whose conviction is that
                                          > killing should result to killing will execute them. In addition, you say
                                          > that is what you believe. I do too but if there are people who want to
                                          > uphold that part of the law that is their conviction and yours should not
                                          > override theirs on biblical pretense.
                                          > Hamilton
                                          >
                                          > taliesin@... wrote: Dear Hamilton
                                          >
                                          > I am saying what I firmly believe what I based on my understanding of my
                                          > Lord,
                                          > but I try not to use the word "fact".
                                          >
                                          > However, I am pleased you raised the delicate matter of pharisees.
                                          >
                                          > Pharisees placed strict observance of the letter of the law ahead of
                                          > compassion.
                                          >
                                          > No offence intended, but I am pretty certain I know what side they would
                                          > take
                                          > in this debate.
                                          >
                                          > As you have correctly pointed out, Jesus said he came to perfect the law
                                          and
                                          > not to abolish it. You then quite correctly pointed out that one verse
                                          does
                                          > not a whole doctrine.
                                          >
                                          > Kind regards
                                          >
                                          > Darryl
                                          >
                                          > Quoting Maestrosecret <marck19692000@...>:
                                          >
                                          > > Dear Darryl
                                          > > And yours that people should not be executed is a FACT and a more
                                          > > Christian one. You know the Bible says to him that is pure all is pure.
                                          > > On what grounds do you stand to claim that my opinion is not a very
                                          > > Christian one and yours is? That is called Pharisaism. Then to plunge
                                          > > yourself into more ridicule you quote one verse; oh sorry, three verses
                                          > > I guess. To you one verse makes a whole doctrine. I deduce you do not
                                          > > know Jesus came to perfect the law and not to abolish it. Until then see
                                          > > you next time.
                                          > > Hamilton
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > taliesin@... wrote: Dear anonymous
                                          > >
                                          > > You say: "However, that does not exempt the fact that people should be
                                          > > executed."
                                          > >
                                          > > That is not a FACT it is your OPINION, and in my humble OPINION, it is
                                          > > not
                                          > > very a Christian one at that.
                                          > >
                                          > > Just because you have an opinion that you can appear to back up by
                                          > > selectively
                                          > > quoting from unrelated parts of the Bible does not make it a "fact".
                                          > >
                                          > > Instead of quoting bits of the Bible out of it context to justify your
                                          > > belief
                                          > > in killing, you should perhaps be considering the words of Jesus.
                                          > >
                                          > > To give but one example:
                                          > >
                                          > > Luke 6:3636
                                          > >
                                          > > "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
                                          > >
                                          > > Why am I not surprised though that those of you who are in favour of
                                          > > killing
                                          > > are only quoting from some of the more oppressive parts of the Priestly
                                          > >
                                          > > contributions the Pentateuch and the Pauline epistles, but are ignoring
                                          > > the
                                          > > Gospels, even though Jesus takes precedence over Paul?
                                          > >
                                          > > Kind regards
                                          > >
                                          > > Darryl
                                          > >
                                          > > Quoting Maestrosecret <marck19692000@...>:
                                          > >
                                          > > > The individual is different from the nation. That means; the
                                          > > individual
                                          > > > is governed by his convictions and the nation is governed by the law
                                          > > (I
                                          > > > Pet 2:13-14). The individual may forgive and pretend to forget but
                                          > > the
                                          > > > nation is there to punish the evil doers (Rom 13:3-4). And punishment
                                          > > as
                                          > > > deem fitting the crime (even though many people have been put to
                                          > > death
                                          > > > unjustified or condemned for nothing) may vary from jail time to
                                          > > > execution.
                                          > > > My only problem with the death penalty is not that it is not
                                          > > biblically
                                          > > > normative but the Uberrima Fides in applying justice which in most
                                          > > cases
                                          > > > is absent. With the present of DNA which in some cases could be
                                          > > tampered
                                          > > > with does not guarantee anyone a true outcome in a case where death
                                          > > is
                                          > > > sorted. Secondly, the application of jurisprudence to please or
                                          > > pacify
                                          > > > the family of the victims is another issue. I hear people say: "now
                                          > > that
                                          > > > he is going to die we will find peace and a closure to the case". The
                                          > > > sadism behind the execution turns it from punishment for a crime to a
                                          > > > massacre. However, that does not exempt the fact that people should
                                          > > be
                                          > > > executed.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Darryl Ward <taliesin@...> wrote: Dear Kwame
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Yes, it was incomplete sentence.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > (I suspect that only God has perfect grammar).
                                          > > >
                                          > > > It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you are
                                          > > > going
                                          > > > to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is this
                                          > > > context is
                                          > > > outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion shown by
                                          > > the
                                          > > > Jesus.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned prisoner.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead of
                                          > > taking
                                          > > > it
                                          > > > literally, especially when the words of Older Testament notions of
                                          > > > justice
                                          > > > and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Kind regards
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Darryl
                                          > > >
                                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
                                          > > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:10 AM
                                          > > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl,
                                          > > Part
                                          > > > 3
                                          > > >
                                          > > > > Darryl wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > << Dear Kwame
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture requires
                                          > > > > us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply take words
                                          > > > > literallyoff a page without considering their historical context or
                                          > > > > our presuppositions that affect our hermenutics. >>
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Incomplete sentence.
                                          > > > > Anyway, besides your apparently continued misuse of the
                                          > > > > word "literal" or "literally," you are preaching to the choir.
                                          > > >
                                          >
                                          > "Life is like a mysterious highway. At times we bypass those who would
                                          have
                                          > made us happy on the other side of the road either because of our
                                          hyperopia
                                          > or myopia" (Hamilton Ayuk).
                                          >
                                          > ---------------------------------
                                          > We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo!
                                          > Groups.
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                                          > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                                          > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole Life
                                          of
                                          > the Believer
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
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                                          > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                          > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.25/515 - Release Date:
                                          03/11/2006
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > "Life is like a mysterious highway. At times we bypass those who would
                                          have made us happy on the other side of the road either because of our
                                          hyperopia or myopia" (Hamilton Ayuk).
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ---------------------------------
                                          > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                                          > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                                          > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole Life
                                          of the Believer
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                        • Darryl Ward
                                          Dear Shaun Thae aprts you are quoting are out of their historical context. Kind regards Darryl ... From: Shaun Green To:
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Nov 3, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Dear Shaun

                                            Thae aprts you are quoting are out of their historical context.

                                            Kind regards

                                            Darryl

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Shaun Green" <learning@...>
                                            To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:07 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty


                                            > Dear Darryl
                                            >
                                            > In the sand, you traced:
                                            > > You ask how did I "come by this knowledge of Jesus"?
                                            > >
                                            > > By reading the Bible!
                                            > >
                                            > > ESPECIALLY the Gospels!
                                            > >
                                            > > Jesus showed compassion and forgiveness and saved a woman from execution
                                            by
                                            > > asking who amongst her sinners was without sin!
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > Are you sure that was not merely a metaphor for...
                                            > ...oh I don't know...
                                            > ...maybe someone more "mature" can come up with something?
                                            ;-)
                                            >
                                            > He had mercy on me too. Why, remains a mystery. I dare not question
                                            > His prerogative.
                                            >
                                            > Romans 9:14-18
                                            > 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
                                            > 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,
                                            > and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
                                            > 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but
                                            > of God that sheweth mercy.
                                            > 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have
                                            > I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name
                                            > might be declared throughout all the earth.
                                            > 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy...
                                            >
                                            > > I accept that the word of God can never be outdated, but I do consider
                                            that
                                            > > some parts, (e.g. Genesis 1-11) are more metaphorical than literal,
                                            which to
                                            > > me is no more scandalous than saying that Jesus spoke in parables.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > When Jesus used parables it is patently clear that he is speaking in
                                            > metaphors. If I am not mistaken, His parables are always clearly
                                            > prefixed, for example Matthew 13:3
                                            > "And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower
                                            > went forth to sow..."
                                            >
                                            > I am sure I have asked this question before:
                                            > Please provide us with some examples of Scripture that you are prepared
                                            > to take literally.
                                            >
                                            > Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, what would you say are are the
                                            > supposed "metaphors" in Genesis 1-11 a picture of?
                                            >
                                            > > I also accept that as God's revelation to us through the Scriptures is
                                            ongoing
                                            > > as our interpretations mature, e.g. few people would now accept that
                                            Genesis 9
                                            > > still authorises slavery or that women may nor preach because of the
                                            social
                                            > > context of Paul's teaching.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > This does not seem to be "a sure foundation".
                                            >
                                            > He says in Numbers 23:18-19
                                            > 18 And he took up his parable, and said, Rise up, Balak, and hear;
                                            > hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor:
                                            > 19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he
                                            > should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken,
                                            > and shall he not make it good?
                                            >
                                            > > Most western countries now accept that capital punishment no longer has
                                            a
                                            > > place in any civilised country, and nobody has shown me anything to
                                            suggest
                                            > > that Jesus would take any different view.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > I take it from this logic that you not regard truth as unchanging and
                                            > objective?
                                            >
                                            > Not only can we see the results of this in society, bur Psalm 2:1-4
                                            > gives us God's response:
                                            > 1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
                                            > 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel
                                            > together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
                                            > 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
                                            > 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them
                                            > in derision.
                                            >
                                            > > (forget about Paul for now)
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > Why? This is Holy Scripture; no part can be interpreted outside of the
                                            > whole. So far it seems you would like us to forget Paul, and consider
                                            > Genesis outdated. Would you care to relegate any other parts of
                                            > Scripture to irrelevance?
                                            >
                                            > You previously claimed that there are places where:
                                            > "the words of Older Testament notions of justice and retribution are at
                                            > odds with the actions of Jesus."
                                            >
                                            > Please supply references for this claim.
                                            >
                                            > Thank you
                                            >
                                            > Literally an object of His mercy
                                            > Shaun Green
                                            >
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                                          • Maestrosecret
                                            You are welcome! Darryl Ward wrote: Glad to meet you I have friends from many parts of Africa - but I have not met anyone
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Nov 3, 2006
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                                              You are welcome!

                                              Darryl Ward <taliesin@...> wrote: Glad to meet you

                                              I have friends from many parts of Africa - but I have not met anyone from
                                              Cameroon before.

                                              Kind regards

                                              Darryl

                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Maestrosecret" <marck19692000@...>
                                              To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 1:12 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl, Part
                                              3

                                              > I am from CAMEROON
                                              >
                                              > Darryl Ward <taliesin@...> wrote: Dear Hamilton
                                              >
                                              > I am not sure what country you are from, but the law of the land in most
                                              > true democracies countries does NOT say that. To the best of my knowledge,
                                              > it is only Japan and most (but not all) states of the USA that have not
                                              yet
                                              > abolished capital punishment.
                                              >
                                              > BTW, the USA does not have a low murder rate.
                                              >
                                              > That to me suggests that the "eye for an eye" concept of justice (that
                                              Jesus
                                              > took us beyond) does not work.
                                              >
                                              > Also, over-riding people's opinions may well not be nice, but it is much
                                              > nicer than killing people.
                                              >
                                              > Kind regards
                                              >
                                              > Darryl
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: "Maestrosecret" <marck19692000@...>
                                              > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:13 PM
                                              > Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl,
                                              Part
                                              > 3
                                              >
                                              > Dear Darryl,
                                              > There is a dichotomy between conviction and rational or jurisprudence. The
                                              > Law of the land says if you voluntarily kill you should be executed. If
                                              your
                                              > conviction is that people should not be killed when they kill then try
                                              hard
                                              > to inform them that killing will enable those whose conviction is that
                                              > killing should result to killing will execute them. In addition, you say
                                              > that is what you believe. I do too but if there are people who want to
                                              > uphold that part of the law that is their conviction and yours should not
                                              > override theirs on biblical pretense.
                                              > Hamilton
                                              >
                                              > taliesin@... wrote: Dear Hamilton
                                              >
                                              > I am saying what I firmly believe what I based on my understanding of my
                                              > Lord,
                                              > but I try not to use the word "fact".
                                              >
                                              > However, I am pleased you raised the delicate matter of pharisees.
                                              >
                                              > Pharisees placed strict observance of the letter of the law ahead of
                                              > compassion.
                                              >
                                              > No offence intended, but I am pretty certain I know what side they would
                                              > take
                                              > in this debate.
                                              >
                                              > As you have correctly pointed out, Jesus said he came to perfect the law
                                              and
                                              > not to abolish it. You then quite correctly pointed out that one verse
                                              does
                                              > not a whole doctrine.
                                              >
                                              > Kind regards
                                              >
                                              > Darryl
                                              >
                                              > Quoting Maestrosecret <marck19692000@...>:
                                              >
                                              > > Dear Darryl
                                              > > And yours that people should not be executed is a FACT and a more
                                              > > Christian one. You know the Bible says to him that is pure all is pure.
                                              > > On what grounds do you stand to claim that my opinion is not a very
                                              > > Christian one and yours is? That is called Pharisaism. Then to plunge
                                              > > yourself into more ridicule you quote one verse; oh sorry, three verses
                                              > > I guess. To you one verse makes a whole doctrine. I deduce you do not
                                              > > know Jesus came to perfect the law and not to abolish it. Until then see
                                              > > you next time.
                                              > > Hamilton
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > taliesin@... wrote: Dear anonymous
                                              > >
                                              > > You say: "However, that does not exempt the fact that people should be
                                              > > executed."
                                              > >
                                              > > That is not a FACT it is your OPINION, and in my humble OPINION, it is
                                              > > not
                                              > > very a Christian one at that.
                                              > >
                                              > > Just because you have an opinion that you can appear to back up by
                                              > > selectively
                                              > > quoting from unrelated parts of the Bible does not make it a "fact".
                                              > >
                                              > > Instead of quoting bits of the Bible out of it context to justify your
                                              > > belief
                                              > > in killing, you should perhaps be considering the words of Jesus.
                                              > >
                                              > > To give but one example:
                                              > >
                                              > > Luke 6:3636
                                              > >
                                              > > "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
                                              > >
                                              > > Why am I not surprised though that those of you who are in favour of
                                              > > killing
                                              > > are only quoting from some of the more oppressive parts of the Priestly
                                              > >
                                              > > contributions the Pentateuch and the Pauline epistles, but are ignoring
                                              > > the
                                              > > Gospels, even though Jesus takes precedence over Paul?
                                              > >
                                              > > Kind regards
                                              > >
                                              > > Darryl
                                              > >
                                              > > Quoting Maestrosecret <marck19692000@...>:
                                              > >
                                              > > > The individual is different from the nation. That means; the
                                              > > individual
                                              > > > is governed by his convictions and the nation is governed by the law
                                              > > (I
                                              > > > Pet 2:13-14). The individual may forgive and pretend to forget but
                                              > > the
                                              > > > nation is there to punish the evil doers (Rom 13:3-4). And punishment
                                              > > as
                                              > > > deem fitting the crime (even though many people have been put to
                                              > > death
                                              > > > unjustified or condemned for nothing) may vary from jail time to
                                              > > > execution.
                                              > > > My only problem with the death penalty is not that it is not
                                              > > biblically
                                              > > > normative but the Uberrima Fides in applying justice which in most
                                              > > cases
                                              > > > is absent. With the present of DNA which in some cases could be
                                              > > tampered
                                              > > > with does not guarantee anyone a true outcome in a case where death
                                              > > is
                                              > > > sorted. Secondly, the application of jurisprudence to please or
                                              > > pacify
                                              > > > the family of the victims is another issue. I hear people say: "now
                                              > > that
                                              > > > he is going to die we will find peace and a closure to the case". The
                                              > > > sadism behind the execution turns it from punishment for a crime to a
                                              > > > massacre. However, that does not exempt the fact that people should
                                              > > be
                                              > > > executed.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Darryl Ward <taliesin@...> wrote: Dear Kwame
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Yes, it was incomplete sentence.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > (I suspect that only God has perfect grammar).
                                              > > >
                                              > > > It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you are
                                              > > > going
                                              > > > to claim your opinions are "established facts." Genesis 9 is this
                                              > > > context is
                                              > > > outdated and irrelevant when viewed against the compassion shown by
                                              > > the
                                              > > > Jesus.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > The Jesus I know would not throw the switch on a condemned prisoner.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > We sometimes need to look at meaning behind the text instead of
                                              > > taking
                                              > > > it
                                              > > > literally, especially when the words of Older Testament notions of
                                              > > > justice
                                              > > > and retribution are at odds with the actions of Jesus.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Kind regards
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Darryl
                                              > > >
                                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > > > From: "not Yusef" <yusefii@...>
                                              > > > To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > > > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:10 AM
                                              > > > Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl,
                                              > > Part
                                              > > > 3
                                              > > >
                                              > > > > Darryl wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > << Dear Kwame
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > God gave us brains to resaon with. Understanding scripture requires
                                              > > > > us to use the intellect that God gaves us, bit to simply take words
                                              > > > > literallyoff a page without considering their historical context or
                                              > > > > our presuppositions that affect our hermenutics. >>
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Incomplete sentence.
                                              > > > > Anyway, besides your apparently continued misuse of the
                                              > > > > word "literal" or "literally," you are preaching to the choir.
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > "Life is like a mysterious highway. At times we bypass those who would
                                              have
                                              > made us happy on the other side of the road either because of our
                                              hyperopia
                                              > or myopia" (Hamilton Ayuk).
                                              >
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                                              > "Life is like a mysterious highway. At times we bypass those who would
                                              have made us happy on the other side of the road either because of our
                                              hyperopia or myopia" (Hamilton Ayuk).
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
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                                              "Life is like a mysterious highway. At times we bypass those who would have made us happy on the other side of the road either because of our hyperopia or myopia" (Hamilton Ayuk).




























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                                            • IW
                                              ... Hash: SHA1 While I do not agree with darryl´s position I think it is as valid as anyone elses. I have not felt that he has been any less or more
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Nov 4, 2006
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                                                While I do not agree with darryl´s position I think it is as valid as
                                                anyone elses. I have not felt that he has been any less or more
                                                ¨scriptural¨ or ¨learned¨ than anyone else. He has made valid points as
                                                have others. I think scripture is open enough to interpretation that a
                                                case can be made for either side. Thus I DO disagree with the tone of
                                                the criticisms on darryl and honestly have not felt his own defence to
                                                be been anything but honourable.

                                                I get leery when issues that are not all that black and white get
                                                argued as if they are...

                                                IW


                                                -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
                                                Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (MingW32)
                                                Comment: Email me for public key

                                                iD8DBQFFTGtL90Gf33Iu52URAtxFAKCHWcC+0PcuW58u7tEinXpDZ+b2YQCgkRo1
                                                VzhayMkOQkx9LgzFCY5Sa/k=
                                                =yxFa
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                                              • Darryl Ward
                                                Thank you IW What has upset me me throughout this whole deabte is not the fact that others take a different view to me, but the hostility to me taking a
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Nov 4, 2006
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                                                  Thank you IW

                                                  What has upset me me throughout this whole deabte is not the fact that
                                                  others take a different view to me, but the hostility to me taking a
                                                  different view to others.

                                                  Anyway, I have got nothing more I want to say on this subject - if anybody
                                                  else wants to have the last word, it is all theirs.

                                                  Kind regards

                                                  Darryl

                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: "IW" <iain@...>
                                                  To: <apologetics@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 11:28 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Re: Death Penalty, for Darryl, Part
                                                  3


                                                  > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
                                                  > Hash: SHA1
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > While I do not agree with darryl´s position I think it is as valid as
                                                  > anyone elses. I have not felt that he has been any less or more
                                                  > ¨scriptural¨ or ¨learned¨ than anyone else. He has made valid points as
                                                  > have others. I think scripture is open enough to interpretation that a
                                                  > case can be made for either side. Thus I DO disagree with the tone of
                                                  > the criticisms on darryl and honestly have not felt his own defence to
                                                  > be been anything but honourable.
                                                  >
                                                  > I get leery when issues that are not all that black and white get
                                                  > argued as if they are...
                                                  >
                                                  > IW
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
                                                  > Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (MingW32)
                                                  > Comment: Email me for public key
                                                  >
                                                  > iD8DBQFFTGtL90Gf33Iu52URAtxFAKCHWcC+0PcuW58u7tEinXpDZ+b2YQCgkRo1
                                                  > VzhayMkOQkx9LgzFCY5Sa/k=
                                                  > =yxFa
                                                  > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
                                                  >
                                                  >
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                                                • Shaun Green
                                                  Dear Darryl ... I do apologise if I have come across as hostile. This medium can be very unforgiving. It is really my intention to win you. Please forgive
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Nov 6, 2006
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                                                    Dear Darryl

                                                    You wrote:
                                                    > What has upset me me throughout this whole deabte is not the fact that
                                                    > others take a different view to me, but the hostility to me taking a
                                                    > different view to others.
                                                    >

                                                    I do apologise if I have come across as hostile. This medium can be
                                                    very unforgiving. It is really my intention to win you.

                                                    Please forgive me.

                                                    Kind regards
                                                    Shaun

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                                                  • taliesin@paradise.net.nz
                                                    Dear Shaun Thwere is nothing to forgive, you did not act in manner that offended me, but please know that the Lord actually won me over for Himself some years
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Nov 6, 2006
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                                                      Dear Shaun

                                                      Thwere is nothing to forgive, you did not act in manner that offended me, but
                                                      please know that the Lord actually won me over for Himself some years ago....

                                                      I consider that it is no accident that we are inspired to take slightly
                                                      different perspectives, as this is the only way that God can get can get us to
                                                      see the bigger picture.


                                                      Kind regards


                                                      Darryl

                                                      Quoting Shaun Green <learning@...>:

                                                      > Dear Darryl
                                                      >
                                                      > You wrote:
                                                      > > What has upset me me throughout this whole deabte is not the fact
                                                      > that
                                                      > > others take a different view to me, but the hostility to me taking a
                                                      > > different view to others.
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      > I do apologise if I have come across as hostile. This medium can be
                                                      > very unforgiving. It is really my intention to win you.
                                                      >
                                                      > Please forgive me.
                                                      >
                                                      > Kind regards
                                                      > Shaun
                                                      >
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