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Obedience vs. Sacrifice

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  • Keith
    If the Scriptures say that God desires obedience not sacrifice, how would you share to someone who believes that repentance is sufficient for salvation that
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 2, 2005
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      If the Scriptures say that God desires obedience not sacrifice, how
      would you share to someone who believes that repentance is sufficient
      for salvation that they should "accept" God's sacrifice of His Christ
      for our sins.

      A couple of points--John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter all preached
      repentance before, during, and after Jesus' ministry.

      Jesus, before his death and resurrection, says about Zacheus
      (sp?) "salvation has come to this house" after he starts paying back
      the money he has stolen.

      Jesus tells several parables about the rejoicing that occurs when one
      sinner repents.

      Do you think someone can "accept" what Jesus has done for them by
      repenting?

      To me, the difference seems to lie in the concept of humbling
      ourselves to admit that it is not by our doing, as well as the
      comfort and motivation that comes from knowing we are forgiven for
      our past sins. Of course then there is the issue of respecting and
      following the teachings of Jesus, which has given my life incredible
      meaning and purpose.

      Your thoughts....

      Keith ><>
    • en7aj6
      Hi Keith- I haven t been in here in MONTHS. :) I hope I can come back more often, I miss theology. Hmmm... so... I think I understand what you are asking...
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 10, 2005
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        Hi Keith-
        I haven't been in here in MONTHS. :)
        I hope I can come back more often, I miss theology.
        Hmmm... so...
        I think I understand what you are asking... that by repenting, one
        accepts Christ.
        I would think that one would repent *because* of accepting Christ.
        I know that I did not even see my sin until Jesus pretty slammed me
        in the head with it just before I accepted Him. Zaccheus admitted
        His sins once He met Christ. I think because he recognized the
        Truth once he saw Him. He came out of the tree when Jesus told him
        to.... Like the disciples followed Christ when He told them to.
        Also to Z... Jesus says " For the Son of Man came to seek and to
        save what was lost." That can only be done through Christ... He
        says it Himself.
        True repentance would entail acceptance of what Christ did...
        otherwise, why are they repenting? Lots of people know what is
        right and wrong, and are not Christian... they have Moral Law
        ingrained in them... they even admit when they are wrong... but this
        does not mean that they are saved.
        Not to pull out the old "obvious verse," but Christ did not just say
        repent, he said "I am the Way the Truth and the Life." Period.

        I hope I read your letter correctly.
        Sorry if I didn't.
        At any rate....good times.

        Jane





        --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <kchapman007@y...> wrote:
        > If the Scriptures say that God desires obedience not sacrifice,
        how
        > would you share to someone who believes that repentance is
        sufficient
        > for salvation that they should "accept" God's sacrifice of His
        Christ
        > for our sins.
        >
        > A couple of points--John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter all
        preached
        > repentance before, during, and after Jesus' ministry.
        >
        > Jesus, before his death and resurrection, says about Zacheus
        > (sp?) "salvation has come to this house" after he starts paying
        back
        > the money he has stolen.
        >
        > Jesus tells several parables about the rejoicing that occurs when
        one
        > sinner repents.
        >
        > Do you think someone can "accept" what Jesus has done for them by
        > repenting?
        >
        > To me, the difference seems to lie in the concept of humbling
        > ourselves to admit that it is not by our doing, as well as the
        > comfort and motivation that comes from knowing we are forgiven for
        > our past sins. Of course then there is the issue of respecting
        and
        > following the teachings of Jesus, which has given my life
        incredible
        > meaning and purpose.
        >
        > Your thoughts....
        >
        > Keith ><>
      • David Glenn Lebut Jr.
        ... this ... say ... Repentence does not necessarily mean acceptance of Christ. This must already be present. True repentence comes from terror of sin
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 10, 2005
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          --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "en7aj6" <en7aj6@y...> wrote:
          > Hi Keith-
          > I haven't been in here in MONTHS. :)
          > I hope I can come back more often, I miss theology.
          > Hmmm... so...
          > I think I understand what you are asking... that by repenting, one
          > accepts Christ.
          > I would think that one would repent *because* of accepting Christ.
          > I know that I did not even see my sin until Jesus pretty slammed me
          > in the head with it just before I accepted Him. Zaccheus admitted
          > His sins once He met Christ. I think because he recognized the
          > Truth once he saw Him. He came out of the tree when Jesus told him
          > to.... Like the disciples followed Christ when He told them to.
          > Also to Z... Jesus says " For the Son of Man came to seek and to
          > save what was lost." That can only be done through Christ... He
          > says it Himself.
          > True repentance would entail acceptance of what Christ did...
          > otherwise, why are they repenting? Lots of people know what is
          > right and wrong, and are not Christian... they have Moral Law
          > ingrained in them... they even admit when they are wrong... but
          this
          > does not mean that they are saved.
          > Not to pull out the old "obvious verse," but Christ did not just
          say
          > repent, he said "I am the Way the Truth and the Life." Period.
          >
          > I hope I read your letter correctly.
          > Sorry if I didn't.
          > At any rate....good times.
          >
          > Jane

          Repentence does not necessarily mean acceptance of Christ. This must
          already be present. True repentence comes from terror of sin
          (contrition).
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <kchapman007@y...>
          wrote:
          > > If the Scriptures say that God desires obedience not sacrifice,
          > how
          > > would you share to someone who believes that repentance is
          > sufficient
          > > for salvation that they should "accept" God's sacrifice of His
          > Christ
          > > for our sins.
          > >
          > > A couple of points--John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter all
          > preached
          > > repentance before, during, and after Jesus' ministry.
          > >
          > > Jesus, before his death and resurrection, says about Zacheus
          > > (sp?) "salvation has come to this house" after he starts paying
          > back
          > > the money he has stolen.
          > >
          > > Jesus tells several parables about the rejoicing that occurs when
          > one
          > > sinner repents.
          > >
          > > Do you think someone can "accept" what Jesus has done for them by
          > > repenting?
          > >
          > > To me, the difference seems to lie in the concept of humbling
          > > ourselves to admit that it is not by our doing, as well as the
          > > comfort and motivation that comes from knowing we are forgiven
          for
          > > our past sins. Of course then there is the issue of respecting
          > and
          > > following the teachings of Jesus, which has given my life
          > incredible
          > > meaning and purpose.
          > >
          > > Your thoughts....
          > >
          > > Keith ><>
        • learning@thelittlegreenhouse.co.za
          ... I am also not sure if I read it correctly, but here is what I was thinking. I think it is safe to say the kind of person that Kieth mentions is attempting
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 11, 2005
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            Jane wrote:

            > I hope I read your letter correctly.
            > Sorry if I didn't.

            I am also not sure if I read it correctly, but here is what I was thinking.

            I think it is safe to say the kind of person that Kieth mentions is attempting
            to save themselves. If they were able to, guess who gets the glory?!

            Saul was reprimanded by Samuel for offering sacrifices INSTEAD of being
            obedient.

            But man's best sacrifice will never be enough to save him...

            ...nor is he capable of perfect obedience.

            That is why Christ died for us. He was the only perfectly obedient man. No
            other sacrifice would have been enough.

            I would say that obedience should be a result of a thankful heart (that is now
            genuinely pleased with God).

            This resulted in fruit (evidence) that salvation had come to the house of
            "Zacheus".

            This is fundamentally different from a heart that is obedient as a dry duty or
            out of trying to prove one's salvation.

            The life that Jesus changes will bring Him glory as an offering of thanks.

            Those are my thoughts ;-)

            Regards
            Shaun Green
          • en7aj6
            Shaun... Nice. :) thanks... that s good. Much more eloquent. :) jane ... thinking. ... is attempting ... glory?! ... being ... obedient man. No ... (that is
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 11, 2005
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              Shaun...
              Nice. :)
              thanks... that's good. Much more eloquent. :)
              jane






              --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, learning@t... wrote:
              > Jane wrote:
              >
              > > I hope I read your letter correctly.
              > > Sorry if I didn't.
              >
              > I am also not sure if I read it correctly, but here is what I was
              thinking.
              >
              > I think it is safe to say the kind of person that Kieth mentions
              is attempting
              > to save themselves. If they were able to, guess who gets the
              glory?!
              >
              > Saul was reprimanded by Samuel for offering sacrifices INSTEAD of
              being
              > obedient.
              >
              > But man's best sacrifice will never be enough to save him...
              >
              > ...nor is he capable of perfect obedience.
              >
              > That is why Christ died for us. He was the only perfectly
              obedient man. No
              > other sacrifice would have been enough.
              >
              > I would say that obedience should be a result of a thankful heart
              (that is now
              > genuinely pleased with God).
              >
              > This resulted in fruit (evidence) that salvation had come to the
              house of
              > "Zacheus".
              >
              > This is fundamentally different from a heart that is obedient as a
              dry duty or
              > out of trying to prove one's salvation.
              >
              > The life that Jesus changes will bring Him glory as an offering of
              thanks.
              >
              > Those are my thoughts ;-)
              >
              > Regards
              > Shaun Green
            • David Glenn Lebut Jr.
              ... thinking. ... attempting ... glory?! ... being ... man. No ... (that is now ... house of ... dry duty or ... thanks. ... The sacrifices of ancient Israel
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 11, 2005
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                --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, learning@t... wrote:
                > Jane wrote:
                >
                > > I hope I read your letter correctly.
                > > Sorry if I didn't.
                >
                > I am also not sure if I read it correctly, but here is what I was
                thinking.
                >
                > I think it is safe to say the kind of person that Kieth mentions is
                attempting
                > to save themselves. If they were able to, guess who gets the
                glory?!
                >
                > Saul was reprimanded by Samuel for offering sacrifices INSTEAD of
                being
                > obedient.
                >
                > But man's best sacrifice will never be enough to save him...
                >
                > ...nor is he capable of perfect obedience.
                >
                > That is why Christ died for us. He was the only perfectly obedient
                man. No
                > other sacrifice would have been enough.
                >
                > I would say that obedience should be a result of a thankful heart
                (that is now
                > genuinely pleased with God).
                >
                > This resulted in fruit (evidence) that salvation had come to the
                house of
                > "Zacheus".
                >
                > This is fundamentally different from a heart that is obedient as a
                dry duty or
                > out of trying to prove one's salvation.
                >
                > The life that Jesus changes will bring Him glory as an offering of
                thanks.
                >
                > Those are my thoughts ;-)
                >
                > Regards
                > Shaun Green

                The sacrifices of ancient Israel were mirrors of the one atoning
                sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the sins of the world. This was
                never understood by either the children of Israel or the Pagans.
                What saved them was their true repentence, which comes from terror of
                sin (contrition) and faith in the absolution pronounced by God.
              • Shaun Green
                ... Exactly! But the question that I think was being asked is: Is repentence alone enough? Regards Shaun Green
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 18, 2005
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                  David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote:

                  > The sacrifices of ancient Israel were mirrors of the one atoning
                  > sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the sins of the world. This was
                  > never understood by either the children of Israel or the Pagans.
                  > What saved them was their true repentence, which comes from terror of
                  > sin (contrition) and faith in the absolution pronounced by God.

                  Exactly!

                  But the question that I think was being asked is:
                  Is repentence alone enough?

                  Regards
                  Shaun Green
                • Nancy Almodovar
                  However, if memory serves me the Scriptures say that without the shedding of Blood there is no remission of sins. Ergo, Christ is the Perfect Sacrifice, no
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 25, 2005
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                    However, if memory serves me the Scriptures say that without the shedding of Blood there is no remission of sins. Ergo, Christ is the Perfect Sacrifice, no matter the type figured in the books of Moses, so even the idea that somewhere in the future a temple will perform "commemorative sacrifices" it smacks the work of Christ because for eternity His Wounds are a commemoration of sacrifice.

                    Shaun Green <learning@...> wrote:David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote:

                    > The sacrifices of ancient Israel were mirrors of the one atoning
                    > sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the sins of the world. This was
                    > never understood by either the children of Israel or the Pagans.
                    > What saved them was their true repentence, which comes from terror of
                    > sin (contrition) and faith in the absolution pronounced by God.

                    Exactly!

                    But the question that I think was being asked is:
                    Is repentence alone enough?

                    Regards
                    Shaun Green




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                    http://theologicallycorrect.com
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                    Nancy A. Almodovar
                    sufficienter pro omnibus, efficaciter tantum pro electis
                    sufficient for all, efficaciosly only for the elect


                    ---------------------------------
                    Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Rolaant McKenzie
                    And yet Ezekiel 40-44 and Isaiah 66 seem to speak of a future temple during the Millennial reign of Jesus on earth in Jerusalem where such memorial sacrifices
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 25, 2005
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                      And yet Ezekiel 40-44 and Isaiah 66 seem to speak of a future temple during
                      the Millennial reign of Jesus on earth in Jerusalem where such memorial
                      sacrifices will take place. During the eternal state there will neither be a
                      temple nor sacrifices, since at that time the Lord will be the temple.

                      Rolaant


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: apologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:apologetics@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of Nancy Almodovar
                      Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 06:23
                      To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Re: Obedience vs. Sacrifice


                      However, if memory serves me the Scriptures say that without the shedding of
                      Blood there is no remission of sins. Ergo, Christ is the Perfect Sacrifice,
                      no matter the type figured in the books of Moses, so even the idea that
                      somewhere in the future a temple will perform "commemorative sacrifices" it
                      smacks the work of Christ because for eternity His Wounds are a
                      commemoration of sacrifice.

                      Shaun Green <learning@...> wrote:David Glenn Lebut Jr.
                      wrote:

                      > The sacrifices of ancient Israel were mirrors of the one atoning
                      > sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the sins of the world. This was
                      > never understood by either the children of Israel or the Pagans.
                      > What saved them was their true repentence, which comes from terror of
                      > sin (contrition) and faith in the absolution pronounced by God.

                      Exactly!

                      But the question that I think was being asked is:
                      Is repentence alone enough?

                      Regards
                      Shaun Green




                      Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                      http://theologicallycorrect.com 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for
                      Christian Living for the Whole Life of the Believer



                      ---------------------------------
                      YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


                      Visit your group "apologetics" on the web.

                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                      ---------------------------------





                      Nancy A. Almodovar
                      sufficienter pro omnibus, efficaciter tantum pro electis
                      sufficient for all, efficaciosly only for the elect


                      ---------------------------------
                      Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                      http://theologicallycorrect.com 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for
                      Christian Living for the Whole Life of the Believer
                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • william_elkins2000
                      Shuan, When moses (I think it was Moses) put the serpent up on the pole. was that enough to heal those who had been bitten. Looking to the cross is as Crist
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 25, 2005
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                        Shuan, When moses (I think it was Moses) put the serpent up on the
                        pole. was that enough to heal those who had been bitten. Looking to
                        the cross is as Crist was lifted on the Cross. and that was enough
                        to save the people to those who looked. Is that any different than
                        repentance? And the only perfect savior IS in fact Jesus Christ for
                        those who were, is and is to come Rev 1 7, and Nancy you are correct
                        to say that Christs blood is the perfect sacrifice the blood of
                        Goats and bulls were a "covering" (the book of Hebrews) Jesus and
                        only Jesus was the atonement for "sin" where as the blood of animals
                        are the covering for "sins".
                        As Far as ezekiel 40-44 go I seem to have a problem after Ezekiel 38
                        just because i dont know what is going on. I know that the temple is
                        involved, but after the valley of dry bones happens then i get into
                        a problem I keep waiting foer another stupid End times fiction book
                        to bore us to death telling about the apocolypse(sp)that this is
                        what is being communicated so to tell the truth im not sure what is
                        happening after ez 38 and i think more people know whats going on
                        than what really is. but then again Im saying that that is not whats
                        going on so why an i even trying to explain it. Its like RCs
                        book "If there is no god why are there atheists?"ha ha Rolant, The
                        Lord will be the temple? Thats worth taking a look at. Ive never
                        thought of that
                        Will
                        put the "Rolaant McKenzie" <rolaant@g...> wrote:
                        >
                        > And yet Ezekiel 40-44 and Isaiah 66 seem to speak of a future
                        temple during
                        > the Millennial reign of Jesus on earth in Jerusalem where such
                        memorial
                        > sacrifices will take place. During the eternal state there will
                        neither be a
                        > temple nor sacrifices, since at that time the Lord will be the
                        temple.
                        >
                        > Rolaant
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:apologetics@yahoogroups.com] On
                        > Behalf Of Nancy Almodovar
                        > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 06:23
                        > To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Re: Obedience vs. Sacrifice
                        >
                        >
                        > However, if memory serves me the Scriptures say that without the
                        shedding of
                        > Blood there is no remission of sins. Ergo, Christ is the Perfect
                        Sacrifice,
                        > no matter the type figured in the books of Moses, so even the idea
                        that
                        > somewhere in the future a temple will perform "commemorative
                        sacrifices" it
                        > smacks the work of Christ because for eternity His Wounds are a
                        > commemoration of sacrifice.
                        >
                        > Shaun Green <learning@t...> wrote:David Glenn Lebut Jr.
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        > > The sacrifices of ancient Israel were mirrors of the one atoning
                        > > sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the sins of the world. This
                        was
                        > > never understood by either the children of Israel or the
                        Pagans.
                        > > What saved them was their true repentence, which comes from
                        terror of
                        > > sin (contrition) and faith in the absolution pronounced by God.
                        >
                        > Exactly!
                        >
                        > But the question that I think was being asked is:
                        > Is repentence alone enough?
                        >
                        > Regards
                        > Shaun Green
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                        > http://theologicallycorrect.com 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources
                        for
                        > Christian Living for the Whole Life of the Believer
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        >
                        >
                        > Visit your group "apologetics" on the web.
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > apologetics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        Service.
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Nancy A. Almodovar
                        > sufficienter pro omnibus, efficaciter tantum pro electis
                        > sufficient for all, efficaciosly only for the elect
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                        > http://theologicallycorrect.com 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources
                        for
                        > Christian Living for the Whole Life of the Believer
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • David Glenn Lebut Jr.
                        ... of ... That was not the impression I got, but rather (to me) the question was about sacrifice and other works of Mosaic Law and their relations to
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 25, 2005
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                          --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Green" <learning@t...> wrote:
                          > David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote:
                          >
                          > > The sacrifices of ancient Israel were mirrors of the one atoning
                          > > sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the sins of the world. This was
                          > > never understood by either the children of Israel or the Pagans.
                          > > What saved them was their true repentence, which comes from terror
                          of
                          > > sin (contrition) and faith in the absolution pronounced by God.
                          >
                          > Exactly!
                          >
                          > But the question that I think was being asked is:
                          > Is repentence alone enough?
                          >
                          > Regards
                          > Shaun Green

                          That was not the impression I got, but rather (to me) the question was
                          about sacrifice and other works of Mosaic Law and their relations to
                          Christian doctrine.
                        • David Glenn Lebut Jr.
                          ... temple during ... memorial ... neither be a ... temple. ... And yet, Christ Himself states that the true worship of God was to be in spirit and in Truth
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 25, 2005
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                            --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Rolaant McKenzie" <rolaant@g...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > And yet Ezekiel 40-44 and Isaiah 66 seem to speak of a future
                            temple during
                            > the Millennial reign of Jesus on earth in Jerusalem where such
                            memorial
                            > sacrifices will take place. During the eternal state there will
                            neither be a
                            > temple nor sacrifices, since at that time the Lord will be the
                            temple.
                            >
                            > Rolaant

                            And yet, Christ Himself states that the true worship of God was to
                            be "in spirit and in Truth" (John 5). He even refers to the body as
                            the Temple (John 12). This was one of the charges brought against
                            Him at His trial before the Sanhedrin (Matthew 26, Mark 14).
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:apologetics@yahoogroups.com] On
                            > Behalf Of Nancy Almodovar
                            > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 06:23
                            > To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Re: Obedience vs. Sacrifice
                            >
                            >
                            > However, if memory serves me the Scriptures say that without the
                            shedding of
                            > Blood there is no remission of sins. Ergo, Christ is the Perfect
                            Sacrifice,
                            > no matter the type figured in the books of Moses, so even the idea
                            that
                            > somewhere in the future a temple will perform "commemorative
                            sacrifices" it
                            > smacks the work of Christ because for eternity His Wounds are a
                            > commemoration of sacrifice.
                            >
                            > Shaun Green <learning@t...> wrote:David Glenn Lebut Jr.
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            > > The sacrifices of ancient Israel were mirrors of the one atoning
                            > > sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the sins of the world. This was
                            > > never understood by either the children of Israel or the Pagans.
                            > > What saved them was their true repentence, which comes from
                            terror of
                            > > sin (contrition) and faith in the absolution pronounced by God.
                            >
                            > Exactly!
                            >
                            > But the question that I think was being asked is:
                            > Is repentence alone enough?
                            >
                            > Regards
                            > Shaun Green
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                            > http://theologicallycorrect.com 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for
                            > Christian Living for the Whole Life of the Believer
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            >
                            >
                            > Visit your group "apologetics" on the web.
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > apologetics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            Service.
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Nancy A. Almodovar
                            > sufficienter pro omnibus, efficaciter tantum pro electis
                            > sufficient for all, efficaciosly only for the elect
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                            > http://theologicallycorrect.com 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for
                            > Christian Living for the Whole Life of the Believer
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • David Glenn Lebut Jr.
                            ... correct ... animals ... 38 ... is ... whats ... In fact, all sacrifices and rituals were signs of Christ and His earthly ministry. Remember how he said in
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 25, 2005
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                              --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "william_elkins2000"
                              <william_elkins2000@y...> wrote:
                              > Shuan, When moses (I think it was Moses) put the serpent up on the
                              > pole. was that enough to heal those who had been bitten. Looking to
                              > the cross is as Crist was lifted on the Cross. and that was enough
                              > to save the people to those who looked. Is that any different than
                              > repentance? And the only perfect savior IS in fact Jesus Christ for
                              > those who were, is and is to come Rev 1 7, and Nancy you are
                              correct
                              > to say that Christs blood is the perfect sacrifice the blood of
                              > Goats and bulls were a "covering" (the book of Hebrews) Jesus and
                              > only Jesus was the atonement for "sin" where as the blood of
                              animals
                              > are the covering for "sins".
                              > As Far as ezekiel 40-44 go I seem to have a problem after Ezekiel
                              38
                              > just because i dont know what is going on. I know that the temple
                              is
                              > involved, but after the valley of dry bones happens then i get into
                              > a problem I keep waiting foer another stupid End times fiction book
                              > to bore us to death telling about the apocolypse(sp)that this is
                              > what is being communicated so to tell the truth im not sure what is
                              > happening after ez 38 and i think more people know whats going on
                              > than what really is. but then again Im saying that that is not
                              whats
                              > going on so why an i even trying to explain it. Its like RCs
                              > book "If there is no god why are there atheists?"ha ha Rolant, The
                              > Lord will be the temple? Thats worth taking a look at. Ive never
                              > thought of that
                              > Will
                              > put the "Rolaant McKenzie" <rolaant@g...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > And yet Ezekiel 40-44 and Isaiah 66 seem to speak of a future
                              > temple during
                              > > the Millennial reign of Jesus on earth in Jerusalem where such
                              > memorial
                              > > sacrifices will take place. During the eternal state there will
                              > neither be a
                              > > temple nor sacrifices, since at that time the Lord will be the
                              > temple.
                              > >
                              > > Rolaant

                              In fact, all sacrifices and rituals were signs of Christ and His
                              earthly ministry. Remember how he said in John 12 "As Moses lifted
                              up the serpent in the Wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted
                              up". And again "And I, when I am lifted from the earth, I will take
                              the sin of the world unto Myself".
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                              > [mailto:apologetics@yahoogroups.com] On
                              > > Behalf Of Nancy Almodovar
                              > > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 06:23
                              > > To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Re: Obedience vs.
                              Sacrifice
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > However, if memory serves me the Scriptures say that without the
                              > shedding of
                              > > Blood there is no remission of sins. Ergo, Christ is the Perfect
                              > Sacrifice,
                              > > no matter the type figured in the books of Moses, so even the
                              idea
                              > that
                              > > somewhere in the future a temple will perform "commemorative
                              > sacrifices" it
                              > > smacks the work of Christ because for eternity His Wounds are a
                              > > commemoration of sacrifice.
                              > >
                              > > Shaun Green <learning@t...> wrote:David Glenn Lebut Jr.
                              > > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > The sacrifices of ancient Israel were mirrors of the one atoning
                              > > > sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the sins of the world. This
                              > was
                              > > > never understood by either the children of Israel or the
                              > Pagans.
                              > > > What saved them was their true repentence, which comes from
                              > terror of
                              > > > sin (contrition) and faith in the absolution pronounced by God.
                              > >
                              > > Exactly!
                              > >
                              > > But the question that I think was being asked is:
                              > > Is repentence alone enough?
                              > >
                              > > Regards
                              > > Shaun Green
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                              > > http://theologicallycorrect.com 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources
                              > for
                              > > Christian Living for the Whole Life of the Believer
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ---------------------------------
                              > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Visit your group "apologetics" on the web.
                              > >
                              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > apologetics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >
                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                              > Service.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ---------------------------------
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Nancy A. Almodovar
                              > > sufficienter pro omnibus, efficaciter tantum pro electis
                              > > sufficient for all, efficaciosly only for the elect
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ---------------------------------
                              > > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
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                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                            • Rolaant McKenzie
                              Different place and context. This does not negate the future fulfillment of Ezekiel 40-44 and Isaiah 66. ... From: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                              Message 14 of 18 , Aug 28, 2005
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                                Different place and context. This does not negate the future fulfillment of
                                Ezekiel 40-44 and Isaiah 66.


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: apologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:apologetics@yahoogroups.com] On
                                Behalf Of David Glenn Lebut Jr.
                                Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 20:01
                                To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [apologetics and theology] Re: Obedience vs. Sacrifice


                                --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Rolaant McKenzie" <rolaant@g...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > And yet Ezekiel 40-44 and Isaiah 66 seem to speak of a future
                                temple during
                                > the Millennial reign of Jesus on earth in Jerusalem where such
                                memorial
                                > sacrifices will take place. During the eternal state there will
                                neither be a
                                > temple nor sacrifices, since at that time the Lord will be the
                                temple.
                                >
                                > Rolaant

                                And yet, Christ Himself states that the true worship of God was to
                                be "in spirit and in Truth" (John 5). He even refers to the body as
                                the Temple (John 12). This was one of the charges brought against
                                Him at His trial before the Sanhedrin (Matthew 26, Mark 14).
                                >
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:apologetics@yahoogroups.com] On
                                > Behalf Of Nancy Almodovar
                                > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 06:23
                                > To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Re: Obedience vs. Sacrifice
                                >
                                >
                                > However, if memory serves me the Scriptures say that without the
                                shedding of
                                > Blood there is no remission of sins. Ergo, Christ is the Perfect
                                Sacrifice,
                                > no matter the type figured in the books of Moses, so even the idea
                                that
                                > somewhere in the future a temple will perform "commemorative
                                sacrifices" it
                                > smacks the work of Christ because for eternity His Wounds are a
                                > commemoration of sacrifice.
                                >
                                > Shaun Green <learning@t...> wrote:David Glenn Lebut Jr.
                                > wrote:
                                >
                                > > The sacrifices of ancient Israel were mirrors of the one atoning
                                > > sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the sins of the world. This was
                                > > never understood by either the children of Israel or the Pagans.
                                > > What saved them was their true repentence, which comes from
                                terror of
                                > > sin (contrition) and faith in the absolution pronounced by God.
                                >
                                > Exactly!
                                >
                                > But the question that I think was being asked is:
                                > Is repentence alone enough?
                                >
                                > Regards
                                > Shaun Green
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                                > http://theologicallycorrect.com 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for
                                > Christian Living for the Whole Life of the Believer
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ---------------------------------
                                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                >
                                >
                                > Visit your group "apologetics" on the web.
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > apologetics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                Service.
                                >
                                >
                                > ---------------------------------
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Nancy A. Almodovar
                                > sufficienter pro omnibus, efficaciter tantum pro electis
                                > sufficient for all, efficaciosly only for the elect
                                >
                                >
                                > ---------------------------------
                                > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                                > http://theologicallycorrect.com 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for
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                                > Links








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                              • Y'shuaborn
                                *****Did God give them a defective Torah****** with Yeshua s ascendancy to the preist-hood necessitates a Transformation of the Torah...obviously!!!...we go
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 13, 2005
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                                  *****Did God give them a defective Torah******

                                  with Yeshua's ascendancy to the preist-hood necessitates a
                                  Transformation of the Torah...obviously!!!...we go from the
                                  blood of bulls and rams to the blood of Him whom through all
                                  things came into being....obviously!!!...Yeshua is the goal of
                                  the Torah.

                                  Transmogrification is a better word than Transformation, it
                                  means to transform without changing...so there is no change to
                                  the Torah, but there is an expansion.

                                  You have booked a hotel room, you check in, but you recieve
                                  an up-grade. Still basically the same room, but with much more
                                  added on.

                                  Believing that Paul or any of the emmissaries spoke against
                                  the Torah/Law is inheriting lies.

                                  Kav Manna

                                  learning@... wrote:

                                  > David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > The sacrifices of ancient Israel were mirrors of the one atoning
                                  > > sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the sins of the world. This was
                                  > > never understood by either the children of Israel or the Pagans.
                                  > > What saved them was their true repentence, which comes from terror of
                                  > > sin (contrition) and faith in the absolution pronounced by God.
                                  >
                                  > Exactly!
                                  >
                                  > But the question that I think was being asked is:
                                  > Is repentence alone enough?
                                  >
                                  > Regards
                                  > Shaun Green
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                                  > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                                  > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole
                                  > Life of the Believer
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  >
                                  > * Visit your group "apologetics
                                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apologetics>" on the web.
                                  >
                                  > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > apologetics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > <mailto:apologetics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                  >
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                                  > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                  >
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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Nancy Almodovar
                                  born: since Hebrews speaks of this matter, let us go to the text. The Old Testament was fading away. Why? Because it was types and shadows and not the
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 13, 2005
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                                    born: since Hebrews speaks of this matter, let us go to the text. The Old Testament was fading away. Why? Because it was types and shadows and not the actual substance, the Messiah was substance of all that portrayed what He would do.
                                    Picture it this way. When an artist begins a peice of work he starts with a sketch, an outline. Now that outline is beautiful in an of itself. However, then he begins to apply paints and color to the canvas. It becomes fuller in depth, in virtue, in it's beauty. This is similar in type to what Jesus has done. We know that G-d spoke in times past through prophets, the Law, Kings and others, but now He has spoken "in Son".

                                    What a beautiful blessing God has given in that though He spoke through others, now G-d speaks through His only begotten Son, the Second Person of the G-dhead.

                                    Nancy



                                    Y'shuaborn <DFism@...> wrote:
                                    *****Did God give them a defective Torah******

                                    with Yeshua's ascendancy to the preist-hood necessitates a
                                    Transformation of the Torah...obviously!!!...we go from the
                                    blood of bulls and rams to the blood of Him whom through all
                                    things came into being....obviously!!!...Yeshua is the goal of
                                    the Torah.

                                    Transmogrification is a better word than Transformation, it
                                    means to transform without changing...so there is no change to
                                    the Torah, but there is an expansion.

                                    You have booked a hotel room, you check in, but you recieve
                                    an up-grade. Still basically the same room, but with much more
                                    added on.

                                    Believing that Paul or any of the emmissaries spoke against
                                    the Torah/Law is inheriting lies.

                                    Kav Manna

                                    learning@... wrote:

                                    > David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > The sacrifices of ancient Israel were mirrors of the one atoning
                                    > > sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the sins of the world. This was
                                    > > never understood by either the children of Israel or the Pagans.
                                    > > What saved them was their true repentence, which comes from terror of
                                    > > sin (contrition) and faith in the absolution pronounced by God.
                                    >
                                    > Exactly!
                                    >
                                    > But the question that I think was being asked is:
                                    > Is repentence alone enough?
                                    >
                                    > Regards
                                    > Shaun Green
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                                    > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                                    > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole
                                    > Life of the Believer
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                    >
                                    > * Visit your group "apologetics
                                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apologetics>" on the web.
                                    >
                                    > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > apologetics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > <mailto:apologetics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                    >
                                    > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                    > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                    Nancy A. Almodovar
                                    sufficienter pro omnibus, efficaciter tantum pro electis
                                    sufficient for all, efficaciosly only for the elect


                                    ---------------------------------
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                                  • Y'shuaborn
                                    Not one yod (jot) or vav (tittle) Assuming your Greco-Roman interpretation of the Torah, Nevi im, and Ketuvi im (TNKh) is right, Yeshua still affirmed Torah
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Oct 13, 2005
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                                      Not one yod (jot) or vav (tittle)

                                      Assuming your Greco-Roman interpretation of the Torah, Nevi'im, and
                                      Ketuvi'im (TNKh) is right, Yeshua still affirmed Torah saying: Matt
                                      5:17. "Do not think that I came to annul, to bring an incorrect
                                      interpretation to, the Torah or the Prophets: I did not come to annul
                                      but to bring spiritual abundance, for the Torah to be obeyed as it
                                      should be and God's promises to receive fulfillment. 18. For truly I say
                                      to you: until the sky and the Earth would pass away, not one yod or vav
                                      could ever pass away from the Torah, until everything would come to
                                      pass. (Lk 16:17) 19. Therefore, whoever would break one of the least of
                                      these commandments, and would teach people this way, will be called
                                      least in the kingdom of the heavens: but whoever would do the
                                      commandments and would teach them, will be called great in the kingdom
                                      of the heavens.

                                      Thus, when YHVH spoke through His Son, He declared Torah.

                                      Shalom my sister!


                                      apologistnyc@... wrote:

                                      > born: since Hebrews speaks of this matter, let us go to the text.
                                      > The Old Testament was fading away. Why? Because it was types and
                                      > shadows and not the actual substance, the Messiah was substance of all
                                      > that portrayed what He would do.
                                      > Picture it this way. When an artist begins a peice of work he starts
                                      > with a sketch, an outline. Now that outline is beautiful in an of
                                      > itself. However, then he begins to apply paints and color to the
                                      > canvas. It becomes fuller in depth, in virtue, in it's beauty. This
                                      > is similar in type to what Jesus has done. We know that G-d spoke in
                                      > times past through prophets, the Law, Kings and others, but now He has
                                      > spoken "in Son".
                                      >
                                      > What a beautiful blessing God has given in that though He spoke
                                      > through others, now G-d speaks through His only begotten Son, the
                                      > Second Person of the G-dhead.
                                      >
                                      > Nancy
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Y'shuaborn <DFism@...> wrote:
                                      > *****Did God give them a defective Torah******
                                      >
                                      > with Yeshua's ascendancy to the preist-hood necessitates a
                                      > Transformation of the Torah...obviously!!!...we go from the
                                      > blood of bulls and rams to the blood of Him whom through all
                                      > things came into being....obviously!!!...Yeshua is the goal of
                                      > the Torah.
                                      >
                                      > Transmogrification is a better word than Transformation, it
                                      > means to transform without changing...so there is no change to
                                      > the Torah, but there is an expansion.
                                      >
                                      > You have booked a hotel room, you check in, but you recieve
                                      > an up-grade. Still basically the same room, but with much more
                                      > added on.
                                      >
                                      > Believing that Paul or any of the emmissaries spoke against
                                      > the Torah/Law is inheriting lies.
                                      >
                                      > Kav Manna
                                      >
                                      > learning@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > The sacrifices of ancient Israel were mirrors of the one atoning
                                      > > > sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the sins of the world. This was
                                      > > > never understood by either the children of Israel or the Pagans.
                                      > > > What saved them was their true repentence, which comes from terror of
                                      > > > sin (contrition) and faith in the absolution pronounced by God.
                                      > >
                                      > > Exactly!
                                      > >
                                      > > But the question that I think was being asked is:
                                      > > Is repentence alone enough?
                                      > >
                                      > > Regards
                                      > > Shaun Green
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                                      > > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                                      > > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the Whole
                                      > > Life of the Believer
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                      > >
                                      > > * Visit your group "apologetics
                                      > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apologetics>" on the web.
                                      > >
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                                      > >
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                                      > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
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                                      >
                                      > Nancy A. Almodovar
                                      > sufficienter pro omnibus, efficaciter tantum pro electis
                                      > sufficient for all, efficaciosly only for the elect
                                      >
                                      >
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                                    • Nancy Almodovar
                                      Not only declared Torah, but that He is the Torah, the Logos, the Spoken Word of God Incarnate. In stating that nothing would pass away until it was
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Oct 15, 2005
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                                        Not only declared Torah, but that He is the Torah, the Logos, the Spoken Word of God Incarnate. In stating that nothing would pass away until it was fulfilled, we know that Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One fulfilled all the law, satisfying God's righteous indignation against sin once for all. He did what Jeremiah prophecied, the law would be written on our hearts, hearts changed fromf stone to flesh. God actually enabling us to follow the law which is summed up in love one another as Christ loved us. Obviously not all has come to pass either in the great plan of Salvation, so we await the consumation of the ages.

                                        Now, you still haven't answered my previous question and really born, your statements on Jesus are way too close to Jehovah's witnesses for my comfort. Please either renounce the website that denies Jesus' equality as to His Godhead with the Father that you linked here, and/or clarify your personal position on whether Jesus is God, not a god, but G-d.

                                        Thanks,
                                        Nancy



                                        Y'shuaborn <DFism@...> wrote:
                                        Not one yod (jot) or vav (tittle)

                                        Assuming your Greco-Roman interpretation of the Torah, Nevi'im, and
                                        Ketuvi'im (TNKh) is right, Yeshua still affirmed Torah saying: Matt
                                        5:17. "Do not think that I came to annul, to bring an incorrect
                                        interpretation to, the Torah or the Prophets: I did not come to annul
                                        but to bring spiritual abundance, for the Torah to be obeyed as it
                                        should be and God's promises to receive fulfillment. 18. For truly I say
                                        to you: until the sky and the Earth would pass away, not one yod or vav
                                        could ever pass away from the Torah, until everything would come to
                                        pass. (Lk 16:17) 19. Therefore, whoever would break one of the least of
                                        these commandments, and would teach people this way, will be called
                                        least in the kingdom of the heavens: but whoever would do the
                                        commandments and would teach them, will be called great in the kingdom
                                        of the heavens.

                                        Thus, when YHVH spoke through His Son, He declared Torah.

                                        Shalom my sister!


                                        apologistnyc@... wrote:

                                        > born: since Hebrews speaks of this matter, let us go to the text.
                                        > The Old Testament was fading away. Why? Because it was types and
                                        > shadows and not the actual substance, the Messiah was substance of all
                                        > that portrayed what He would do.
                                        > Picture it this way. When an artist begins a peice of work he starts
                                        > with a sketch, an outline. Now that outline is beautiful in an of
                                        > itself. However, then he begins to apply paints and color to the
                                        > canvas. It becomes fuller in depth, in virtue, in it's beauty. This
                                        > is similar in type to what Jesus has done. We know that G-d spoke in
                                        > times past through prophets, the Law, Kings and others, but now He has
                                        > spoken "in Son".
                                        >
                                        > What a beautiful blessing God has given in that though He spoke
                                        > through others, now G-d speaks through His only begotten Son, the
                                        > Second Person of the G-dhead.
                                        >
                                        > Nancy
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Y'shuaborn <DFism@...> wrote:
                                        > *****Did God give them a defective Torah******
                                        >
                                        > with Yeshua's ascendancy to the preist-hood necessitates a
                                        > Transformation of the Torah...obviously!!!...we go from the
                                        > blood of bulls and rams to the blood of Him whom through all
                                        > things came into being....obviously!!!...Yeshua is the goal of
                                        > the Torah.
                                        >
                                        > Transmogrification is a better word than Transformation, it
                                        > means to transform without changing...so there is no change to
                                        > the Torah, but there is an expansion.
                                        >
                                        > You have booked a hotel room, you check in, but you recieve
                                        > an up-grade. Still basically the same room, but with much more
                                        > added on.
                                        >
                                        > Believing that Paul or any of the emmissaries spoke against
                                        > the Torah/Law is inheriting lies.
                                        >
                                        > Kav Manna
                                        >
                                        > learning@... wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > > The sacrifices of ancient Israel were mirrors of the one atoning
                                        > > > sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the sins of the world. This was
                                        > > > never understood by either the children of Israel or the Pagans.
                                        > > > What saved them was their true repentence, which comes from terror of
                                        > > > sin (contrition) and faith in the absolution pronounced by God.
                                        > >
                                        > > Exactly!
                                        > >
                                        > > But the question that I think was being asked is:
                                        > > Is repentence alone enough?
                                        > >
                                        > > Regards
                                        > > Shaun Green
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
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                                        > Nancy A. Almodovar
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                                        Nancy A. Almodovar
                                        sufficienter pro omnibus, efficaciter tantum pro electis
                                        sufficient for all, efficaciosly only for the elect


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