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Re: [apologetics and theology] Question

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  • jdagius
    ... missteps of ... forms of ... Psa 19:12 None of us can see our own errors; deliver me, LORD, from hidden faults! Psa 19:13 Keep me safe, also, from
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 1, 2005
      Kwame wrote:

      > Question: .... <snip> .... I'm wondering: do perceived
      missteps of
      > Christians ever drive some unbelievers toward "alternative"
      forms of
      > Christianity or toward sorts of quasi-New Age hodgepodge self-made
      > religions? .... <snip> ....

      Psa 19:12 None of us can see our own errors; deliver me, LORD, from
      hidden faults!
      Psa 19:13 Keep me safe, also, from willful sins; don't let them rule
      over me. Then I shall be perfect and free from the evil of sin.
      Psa 19:14 May my words and my thoughts be acceptable to you, O LORD,
      my refuge and my redeemer!

      -Johanus Dagius
    • Y'shuaborn
      I hope that s not the case but more importantly, it will not be a valid defense (none exists) when those unbelievers and New Agers stand before The Judge of
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 1, 2005
        I hope that's not the case but more importantly, it will not be a valid
        defense (none exists) when those unbelievers and New Agers stand before
        The Judge of the Universe. He doesn't call them to follow "Christians"
        but to follow Him; to obey His word.

        jdagius@... wrote:

        >
        >
        > Kwame wrote:
        >
        > > Question: .... <snip> .... I'm wondering: do perceived
        > missteps of
        > > Christians ever drive some unbelievers toward "alternative"
        > forms of
        > > Christianity or toward sorts of quasi-New Age hodgepodge self-made
        > > religions? .... <snip> ....
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • jdagius
        ... valid ... before ... Christians ... Perhaps these folks can get the late great Johnny Cochran to defend them: Your Almighty Honor! My client pleads that
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 2, 2005
          Y'shuaBorn wrote:
          > I hope that's not the case but more importantly, it will not be a
          valid
          > defense (none exists) when those unbelievers and New Agers stand
          before
          > The Judge of the Universe. He doesn't call them to follow
          "Christians"
          > but to follow Him; to obey His word.

          Perhaps these folks can get the late great Johnny Cochran to defend
          them: "Your Almighty Honor! My client pleads that he Did Not Know. So,
          to Your Kingdom You must let him Go!"

          Nah, probably wouldn't work, especially if these folks had been warned
          i.e. exposed to Christian doctrine and teachings. They would have no,
          as you say, valid defense.

          But what about the people whom the missionaries never reached, never
          heard of Jesus or the Gospel of Salvation? Are these folks
          automatically condemned to Hell's Fire merely because "they did not
          know"?

          One of the reasons that I remain skeptical (but still receptive)
          towards the orthodox Christian faith is that I really can't believe
          God would leave the job of Salvation to us, humans, who are
          notoriously misguided and unreliable.

          Of course some Calvinists will deny that Salvation is decided by us
          humans. It was, they say, decided before Adam. But, if so, why bother
          with Mat 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing
          them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"

          But what if the foreigners in those nations can't be reached or die
          before the missionaries reach them? Or what happens to the foreigners
          if the missionary apostatizes or gets killed just before the foreigner
          would have been converted? … or worse gets converted to an invalid
          religion (I won't name these, but you know them).

          Who gets the blame if the foreigner dies in his sins: the missionary
          or the foreigner?

          I believe the Bible teaches that God looks in your heart and how you
          lived your life to decide your fate. Requiring a person to invoke
          sacred names and beliefs to be Saved somehow smacks of idolatry, i.e.
          the kind of religion that Judeo-Christians have always opposed.

          Rom 10:13 As the scripture says, "Everyone who calls out to the Lord
          for help will be saved."
          Rom 10:8 … "God's message is near you, on your lips and in your heart"
          …
          Luk 12:34 For your heart will always be where your riches are.

          The prophet Jeremiah:
          "I [YHWH speaking] will put my law within them and write it on their
          hearts… None of them will have to teach a neighbor to know YHWH,
          because all will know me, from the least to the greatest. I will
          forgive their sins and I will no longer remember their wrongs. I,
          YHWH, have spoken."

          Jesus:
          Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for
          salvation is of the Jews.

          The Apostle Paul:
          Act 17:23 For as I walked through your city and looked at the places
          where you worship, I found an altar on which is written, 'To an
          Unknown God.' That which you worship, then, even though you do not
          know it, is what I now proclaim to you.
          Act 17:24 God, who made the world and everything in it, is Lord of
          heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands.
          Act 17:25 Nor does he need anything that we can supply by working for
          him, since it is he himself who gives life and breath and everything
          else to everyone.

          We all worship an "unknown" God in the sense that none of us really
          knows God completely. Some of us believe that we must depend on the
          words in a Book to carry out our worship.

          I am sustained by those words too, but don't necessarily believe all
          that is written (Proverbs 14:15).

          I therefore call upon the Lord for help: to look in my heart and help
          me in my unbelief.

          -Johanus Dagius

          "For in him we live, and move, and have our being" Acts 17:28
        • william_elkins2000
          ... or a important defence of New agers? Will ... So, ... warned ... no, ... never ... bother ... Ghost ... foreigners ... foreigner ... invalid ...
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 2, 2005
            --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "jdagius" <jdagius@y...> wrote:
            >
            > not followinfg you Y'shuaBorn. What does not exist? a VALID defence?
            or a important defence of New agers?

            Will
            > Y'shuaBorn wrote:
            > > I hope that's not the case but more importantly, it will not be a
            > valid
            > > defense (none exists) when those unbelievers and New Agers stand
            > before
            > > The Judge of the Universe. He doesn't call them to follow
            > "Christians"
            > > but to follow Him; to obey His word.
            >
            > Perhaps these folks can get the late great Johnny Cochran to defend
            > them: "Your Almighty Honor! My client pleads that he Did Not Know.
            So,
            > to Your Kingdom You must let him Go!"
            >
            > Nah, probably wouldn't work, especially if these folks had been
            warned
            > i.e. exposed to Christian doctrine and teachings. They would have
            no,
            > as you say, valid defense.
            >
            > But what about the people whom the missionaries never reached,
            never
            > heard of Jesus or the Gospel of Salvation? Are these folks
            > automatically condemned to Hell's Fire merely because "they did not
            > know"?
            >
            > One of the reasons that I remain skeptical (but still receptive)
            > towards the orthodox Christian faith is that I really can't believe
            > God would leave the job of Salvation to us, humans, who are
            > notoriously misguided and unreliable.
            >
            > Of course some Calvinists will deny that Salvation is decided by us
            > humans. It was, they say, decided before Adam. But, if so, why
            bother
            > with Mat 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing
            > them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy
            Ghost"
            >
            > But what if the foreigners in those nations can't be reached or die
            > before the missionaries reach them? Or what happens to the
            foreigners
            > if the missionary apostatizes or gets killed just before the
            foreigner
            > would have been converted? … or worse gets converted to an
            invalid
            > religion (I won't name these, but you know them).
            >
            > Who gets the blame if the foreigner dies in his sins: the
            missionary
            > or the foreigner?
            >
            > I believe the Bible teaches that God looks in your heart and how
            you
            > lived your life to decide your fate. Requiring a person to invoke
            > sacred names and beliefs to be Saved somehow smacks of idolatry,
            i.e.
            > the kind of religion that Judeo-Christians have always opposed.
            >
            > Rom 10:13 As the scripture says, "Everyone who calls out to the
            Lord
            > for help will be saved."
            > Rom 10:8 … "God's message is near you, on your lips and in your
            heart"
            > …
            > Luk 12:34 For your heart will always be where your riches are.
            >
            > The prophet Jeremiah:
            > "I [YHWH speaking] will put my law within them and write it on
            their
            > hearts… None of them will have to teach a neighbor to know YHWH,
            > because all will know me, from the least to the greatest. I will
            > forgive their sins and I will no longer remember their wrongs. I,
            > YHWH, have spoken."
            >
            > Jesus:
            > Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for
            > salvation is of the Jews.
            >
            > The Apostle Paul:
            > Act 17:23 For as I walked through your city and looked at the
            places
            > where you worship, I found an altar on which is written, 'To an
            > Unknown God.' That which you worship, then, even though you do not
            > know it, is what I now proclaim to you.
            > Act 17:24 God, who made the world and everything in it, is Lord of
            > heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands.
            > Act 17:25 Nor does he need anything that we can supply by working
            for
            > him, since it is he himself who gives life and breath and
            everything
            > else to everyone.
            >
            > We all worship an "unknown" God in the sense that none of us really
            > knows God completely. Some of us believe that we must depend on the
            > words in a Book to carry out our worship.
            >
            > I am sustained by those words too, but don't necessarily believe
            all
            > that is written (Proverbs 14:15).
            >
            > I therefore call upon the Lord for help: to look in my heart and
            help
            > me in my unbelief.
            >
            > -Johanus Dagius
            >
            > "For in him we live, and move, and have our being" Acts 17:28
          • Kwame
            Johanus wrote: ... valid ... before ... Christians ... Perhaps these folks can get the late great Johnny Cochran to defend them: Your Almighty Honor! My
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 2, 2005
              Johanus wrote:

              << Y'shuaBorn wrote:
              > I hope that's not the case but more importantly, it will not be a
              valid
              > defense (none exists) when those unbelievers and New Agers stand
              before
              > The Judge of the Universe. He doesn't call them to follow
              "Christians"
              > but to follow Him; to obey His word.

              Perhaps these folks can get the late great Johnny Cochran to defend
              them: "Your Almighty Honor! My client pleads that he Did Not Know. So,
              to Your Kingdom You must let him Go!"

              Nah, probably wouldn't work, especially if these folks had been warned
              i.e. exposed to Christian doctrine and teachings. They would have no,
              as you say, valid defense.

              But what about the people whom the missionaries never reached, never
              heard of Jesus or the Gospel of Salvation? Are these folks
              automatically condemned to Hell's Fire merely because "they did not
              know"? >>

              Of course they will not be condemned in virtue of their not having heard, believed, trusted in, or known the good news of Christ. But those who do not believe on God and have not heard the good news will nonetheless be condemned, for every one of them has done wrong regardless and, if someone should insist that I mention this, unbelievers do not obey God�s law while the mind set on the flesh *cannot* submit to God�s law as Paul informs us in his epistle to the Romans. Things such as those that Christ mentions in Mark 7:21-23--evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness--everyone is guilty of one of these, whether they have heard the gospel or not, and will be punished in a manner commensurate with their crimes.


              It was also said:

              << One of the reasons that I remain skeptical (but still receptive)
              towards the orthodox Christian faith is that I really can't believe
              God would leave the job of Salvation to us, humans, who are
              notoriously misguided and unreliable.

              Of course some Calvinists will deny that Salvation is decided by us
              humans. It was, they say, decided before Adam. But, if so, why bother
              with Mat 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing
              them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" >>

              I�m still not sure why people don�t get this, but this reminds me of something Dr. Fischer once said in class regarding the issue of determinism: even if it is predetermined that you eat at Denny�s tonight, you�re still not going to end up eating there unless you get up and go thither. The results of actions in this universe tend to have means, and why can it not be that God is pleased to use *means* to the end of saving his elect?


              More:

              << But what if the foreigners in those nations can't be reached or die
              before the missionaries reach them? Or what happens to the foreigners
              if the missionary apostatizes or gets killed just before the foreigner
              would have been converted? � or worse gets converted to an invalid
              religion (I won't name these, but you know them).

              Who gets the blame if the foreigner dies in his sins: the missionary
              or the foreigner?

              I believe the Bible teaches that God looks in your heart and how you
              lived your life to decide your fate. Requiring a person to invoke
              sacred names and beliefs to be Saved somehow smacks of idolatry, i.e.
              the kind of religion that Judeo-Christians have always opposed. >>

              Well, thankfully God takes the stony hearts of some and makes them to be things both living and responsive, a change of heart in itself not being something sufficient to produce liberty from bondage to sin or power to do God�s will. Meanwhile, you don�t want God to bless you based merely upon the number or greatness of supposed good deeds of yours that you yourself have done and what things you yourself have not done; if He did, you would soon enough realize the sort of thing that the apostle Paul was talking about in Galatians 2 when he said that if righteousness could be gained by the law, then Christ died for nothing (though He obviously did not die for nothing). Of course, when a person realizes that he is a lawbreaker, and that a day is coming when those who do wrong will be punished, and that he cannot save himself and as a result cries out to God for mercy in desperation and in believing that He is merciful, well, this sounds like Romans, chapter four to me.

              And it�s good to talk about basic things like these right now. With John Paul�s death now being a reality and the selection of a new �Pope� apparentely looming, these issues will arise, and perhaps even more if they were right all along in the early nineties saying that the next �Pope� would be the man of lawlessness that Paul talked about; and it wasn�t just Protestants saying that either.

              -Kwame

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              http://mail.yahoo.com

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • william_elkins2000
              ... nothing to defend? i can see your point but i think they have a lot to defend issues like TM for instance we ve gotten God all figured out by wearing
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 3, 2005
                --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "william_elkins2000"
                <william_elkins2000@y...> wrote:
                > ok so what your saying is that non-believers,in general have
                nothing to defend? i can see your point but i think they have a lot
                to defend issues like TM for instance we ve gotten God all figured
                out by wearing our'christian dress' as well(so to speak) and this is
                not a 'valid' defence?
                I agree
                Will.


                > --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "jdagius" <jdagius@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > not followinfg you Y'shuaBorn. What does not exist? a VALID
                defence?
                > or a important defence of New agers?
                >
                > Will
                > > Y'shuaBorn wrote:
                > > > I hope that's not the case but more importantly, it will not be
                a
                > > valid
                > > > defense (none exists) when those unbelievers and New Agers
                stand
                > > before
                > > > The Judge of the Universe. He doesn't call them to follow
                > > "Christians"
                > > > but to follow Him; to obey His word.
                > >
                > > Perhaps these folks can get the late great Johnny Cochran to
                defend
                > > them: "Your Almighty Honor! My client pleads that he Did Not
                Know.
                > So,
                > > to Your Kingdom You must let him Go!"
                > >
                > > Nah, probably wouldn't work, especially if these folks had been
                > warned
                > > i.e. exposed to Christian doctrine and teachings. They would have
                > no,
                > > as you say, valid defense.
                > >
                > > But what about the people whom the missionaries never reached,
                > never
                > > heard of Jesus or the Gospel of Salvation? Are these folks
                > > automatically condemned to Hell's Fire merely because "they did
                not
                > > know"?
                > >
                > > One of the reasons that I remain skeptical (but still receptive)
                > > towards the orthodox Christian faith is that I really can't
                believe
                > > God would leave the job of Salvation to us, humans, who are
                > > notoriously misguided and unreliable.
                > >
                > > Of course some Calvinists will deny that Salvation is decided by
                us
                > > humans. It was, they say, decided before Adam. But, if so, why
                > bother
                > > with Mat 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
                baptizing
                > > them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy
                > Ghost"
                > >
                > > But what if the foreigners in those nations can't be reached or
                die
                > > before the missionaries reach them? Or what happens to the
                > foreigners
                > > if the missionary apostatizes or gets killed just before the
                > foreigner
                > > would have been converted? … or worse gets converted to an
                > invalid
                > > religion (I won't name these, but you know them).
                > >
                > > Who gets the blame if the foreigner dies in his sins: the
                > missionary
                > > or the foreigner?
                > >
                > > I believe the Bible teaches that God looks in your heart and how
                > you
                > > lived your life to decide your fate. Requiring a person to invoke
                > > sacred names and beliefs to be Saved somehow smacks of idolatry,
                > i.e.
                > > the kind of religion that Judeo-Christians have always opposed.
                > >
                > > Rom 10:13 As the scripture says, "Everyone who calls out to the
                > Lord
                > > for help will be saved."
                > > Rom 10:8 … "God's message is near you, on your lips and in your
                > heart"
                > > …
                > > Luk 12:34 For your heart will always be where your riches are.
                > >
                > > The prophet Jeremiah:
                > > "I [YHWH speaking] will put my law within them and write it on
                > their
                > > hearts… None of them will have to teach a neighbor to know YHWH,
                > > because all will know me, from the least to the greatest. I will
                > > forgive their sins and I will no longer remember their wrongs. I,
                > > YHWH, have spoken."
                > >
                > > Jesus:
                > > Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship:
                for
                > > salvation is of the Jews.
                > >
                > > The Apostle Paul:
                > > Act 17:23 For as I walked through your city and looked at the
                > places
                > > where you worship, I found an altar on which is written, 'To an
                > > Unknown God.' That which you worship, then, even though you do
                not
                > > know it, is what I now proclaim to you.
                > > Act 17:24 God, who made the world and everything in it, is Lord
                of
                > > heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human
                hands.
                > > Act 17:25 Nor does he need anything that we can supply by
                working
                > for
                > > him, since it is he himself who gives life and breath and
                > everything
                > > else to everyone.
                > >
                > > We all worship an "unknown" God in the sense that none of us
                really
                > > knows God completely. Some of us believe that we must depend on
                the
                > > words in a Book to carry out our worship.
                > >
                > > I am sustained by those words too, but don't necessarily believe
                > all
                > > that is written (Proverbs 14:15).
                > >
                > > I therefore call upon the Lord for help: to look in my heart and
                > help
                > > me in my unbelief.
                > >
                > > -Johanus Dagius
                > >
                > > "For in him we live, and move, and have our being" Acts 17:28
              • jdagius
                Bill, [Sorry for the delay. Had to do some reading on this subject to make this reply worthy of your scrutiny] ... excerpt ... age ... Bill, first let me make
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 4, 2005
                  Bill,
                  [Sorry for the delay. Had to do some reading on this subject to make
                  this reply worthy of your scrutiny]

                  Bill Nugent wrote:
                  > Bill: Not agreed! Many layers are added to ice sheets each year. An
                  excerpt
                  > below from an answersingenesis.org article will dispel evolutionist
                  age
                  > errors.

                  Bill, first let me make it clear that I am not intrinsically opposed
                  to the concept of a 'young earth'. I would love to see scientific
                  proof that the earth is only 6000 years old (based on Bishop Ussher's
                  calculated date of creation: 0900 UTC 23-October-4004 BCE). The
                  problem is that the very small sampling of Creationist "evidence" that
                  I have read has not convinced me. But perhaps I haven't sampled
                  enough.

                  Another problem is that I'm a computer scientist with a background in
                  signal processing and physics. I'm not an expert in Earth Science, but
                  tried to catch up a bit in the past few days. For example, in reading
                  the Oard article I ran across the term "uniformitarian" which I
                  confess was a word that was completely unknown to me. My American
                  Heritage dictionary revealed that it is: . "The theory that all
                  geologic phenomena may be explained as the result of existing forces
                  having operated uniformly from the origin of the earth to the present
                  time."

                  Now, strangely, this definition sounds similar to the assumptions that
                  Creationists use to prove the young earth theory. They assume that the
                  shrinkage of the sun, or the dilation of the moon's orbit, the rate of
                  dust accumulation on the earth and moon, the recession rate of the
                  Niagara Falls [… the list uniformitarian assumptions goes on and on]
                  has essentially remained constant since Creation. Thus, it is possible
                  to use currently existing (and easily observable) conditions on Earth
                  and extrapolate back to the time of Creation.

                  I have learned (just from my readings the past few days on ice core
                  and related literature) that one of the very first Uniformitarians
                  was, ironically, Sir Charles Lyell, a geologist who greatly influenced
                  the thought of his contemporary, Charles Darwin. Lyell based his
                  geology on the principle that "the present is the key to the past". He
                  supported Darwin's work but was not really an evolutionist himself
                  because he did not accept the idea of "natural selection". But his
                  work nevertheless supported the biological theory of evolution by
                  providing a framework for the long geological times necessary for
                  evolution.

                  Today we see that this "uniformitarian principle" popular in Lyell's
                  time would be seen as somewhat flawed today, because the rates
                  geological processes are not invariant, but vary wildly, from slow
                  erosion on one end to 'catastrophes' like asteroid collisions on the
                  other end. Does that mean that Lyell was a "bad" scientist? Not at
                  all. It is quite proper to start with the simplest hypothesis that
                  explains observed phenomena and add complexity only to account for
                  observations which don't fit the simplistic hypotheses. This is
                  Occam's Razor (or as Einstein explained: Theories should be as simple
                  as possible, but not too simple)

                  In other words I don't see how any modern geologist could call himself
                  a "Uniformitarian" [do any?], but it wouldn't be hard for me to accept
                  that admission from a Creation Scientist.

                  So, what does all of this have to do with ice cores? It's quite
                  simple: I think we all agree that the accumulated layers of the Arctic
                  and Antarctic ice sheets can be viewed a kind of "time machine"
                  (though we might disagree on the _interpretation_ of the layers). The
                  layers are deposited in annual _cycles_, just like tree rings. By
                  counting the layers we can compute their dates.

                  The cores are extracted by pushing a hollow tube into the ice sheet
                  and pulling up the vertical cylinder of ice enclosed in the tube.
                  Cores have been extracted from many locations, up to thousands of feet
                  in length, containing hundreds of thousands of annual layers, which
                  certainly SUGGESTS that the earth is at least hundreds of thousands of
                  years old.

                  Actually, it's not quite that simple due to "noise", such as
                  deformations caused by depth and pressure and variations in the annual
                  cycles. But by combining visual counting with a multi-pronged
                  approach, including chemical/isotopic analyses, correlating observed
                  events in the cores with similar events in other kinds of geological
                  strata, past historical events can be seen. For example, the famous
                  Tambora eruption of 1815 is easily discerned in ice cores from both
                  Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets.

                  There's another claim that ice cores appear to corroborate an eruption
                  of the Toba volcano in Indonesia about 75,000 years ago. Check it out:
                  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/01/040127081754.htm
                  [Possible "smoking gun" here]

                  So, getting back to the article you posted, what does Oard have to say
                  about all this? Well, he won't accept the "old-earth" conclusion.
                  That's obvious. But it surprising to me that his interpretation (and,
                  I'm guessing, of all other Creationists) is so "negative". Instead of
                  viewing these cores as wonderful "time machines", which might possibly
                  corroborate the Biblical stories of the Flood, the destruction of
                  Sodom etc. he seems interested only in finding ways to discredit the
                  virtually unanimous conclusions of orthodox scientists. I.e. he seems
                  to be saying "you can't possibly make sense out of all this mish-mash
                  of layers because of these reasons that our research is producing"
                  This is a defeatist attitude. His closing remarks indicate that he
                  would be happy if all these ice core research centers were shut down
                  and have these folks spend more time reading the Bible instead. [Note:
                  There's absolutely nothing wrong with reading the Bible, of course.].

                  He admits, for example that the above-mentioned multi-pronged approach
                  appears to corroborate with known observations.

                  > If one starts with the uniformitarian paradigm, it is easy to see
                  how the various methods
                  > appear to be corroborating. However, when one steps back and
                  questions the unspoken
                  > starting assumptions and allows the parameters to vary by the full
                  range available,
                  > completely different consistent results can be obtained.

                  But where I find fault with this article is that it doesn't explain
                  exactly how "uniformitarianism" is involved here, nor does he go on to
                  describe any such "completely different consistent results".

                  This may be because you didn't include the explanations. [Please do if
                  they exist]. But this may also be because the Creationists have never
                  actually looked at an ice core close up. [CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG.]
                  But it looks like a bunch of "armchair" researchers, taking pot shots
                  at the research of others but conducting no real research of their
                  own. They seem to be denying that it's a time machine into the
                  Biblical past. They should be working on telling us the stories it
                  reveals, not trying to discover a thousand reasons why it can't be
                  done.

                  HTH,
                  -jdagius

                  "In him we live, move and exist"
                • Y'shuaborn
                  If some remote tribe somewhere never receives a missionary and therefore never hears about the G-d of the Bible or the Son, they will be judged by the laws the
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
                    If some remote tribe somewhere never receives a missionary and therefore
                    never hears about the G-d of the Bible or the Son, they will be judged
                    by the laws the G-d they never heard about wrote on their hearts when He
                    made them: not to kill, not to steal, love their children, etc.....all
                    societies have these and more. Being judged by your heart is not such a
                    good thing if you don't have Jesus because your heart will condemn you
                    otherwise. G-d has said the human heart is deceitful and wicked. That
                    should take care the missionary-at-fault idea you raised.

                    As you said, the misguided and unreliable nature of fallen man is not
                    capable of achieving its own salvation. Praise G-d He did not do that
                    but sent His only begotten Son to be our Redeemer. As far as any other
                    religion goes, the first commandment answers your question on that
                    score. G-d will not overlook such a thing no matter how much people want
                    to belive He will. Our G-d is the only known G-d. We know Him through
                    His word, and historically He was also known by His interactions with
                    His set-apart people.

                    jdagius@... wrote:

                    > ...especially if these folks had been warned i.e. exposed to
                    > Christian doctrine and teachings. They would have no, as you say,
                    > valid defense.
                    >
                    > But what about the people whom the missionaries never reached, never
                    > heard of Jesus or the Gospel of Salvation? Are these folks
                    > automatically condemned to Hell's Fire merely because "they did not
                    > know"?
                    >
                    > One of the reasons that I remain skeptical (but still receptive)
                    > towards the orthodox Christian faith is that I really can't believe
                    > God would leave the job of Salvation to us, humans, who are
                    > notoriously misguided and unreliable.
                    >
                    > But what if the foreigners in those nations can't be reached or die
                    > before the missionaries reach them? Or what happens to the foreigners
                    > if the missionary apostatizes or gets killed just before the foreigner
                    > would have been converted? ... or worse gets converted to an invalid
                    > religion (I won't name these, but you know them).
                    >
                    > Who gets the blame if the foreigner dies in his sins: the missionary
                    > or the foreigner?
                    >
                    > I believe the Bible teaches that God looks in your heart and how you
                    > lived your life to decide your fate. Requiring a person to invoke
                    > sacred names and beliefs to be Saved somehow smacks of idolatry, i.e.
                    > the kind of religion that Judeo-Christians have always opposed.
                    >
                    > We all worship an "unknown" God in the sense that none of us really
                    > knows God completely. Some of us believe that we must depend on the
                    > words in a Book to carry out our worship.
                    >
                    > I therefore call upon the Lord for help: to look in my heart and help
                    > me in my unbelief.
                    >
                    > -Johanus Dagius



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Y'shuaborn
                    If no valid defense exists, there can be no important defense either. No defense, important or otherwise, exists. ... [Non-text portions of this message have
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
                      If no valid defense exists, there can be no "important" defense either.
                      No defense, important or otherwise, exists.

                      william_elkins2000@... wrote:

                      >
                      > --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "jdagius" <jdagius@y...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > not followinfg you Y'shuaBorn. What does not exist? a VALID defence?
                      > or a important defence of New agers?
                      >
                      > Will
                      > > Y'shuaBorn wrote:
                      > > > I hope that's not the case but more importantly, it will not be a
                      > > valid
                      > > > defense (none exists) when those unbelievers and New Agers stand
                      > > before
                      > > > The Judge of the Universe. He doesn't call them to follow
                      > > "Christians"
                      > > > but to follow Him; to obey His word.
                      > >
                      > > Perhaps these folks can get the late great Johnny Cochran to defend
                      > > them: "Your Almighty Honor! My client pleads that he Did Not Know.
                      > So,
                      > > to Your Kingdom You must let him Go!"
                      > >
                      > > Nah, probably wouldn't work, especially if these folks had been
                      > warned
                      > > i.e. exposed to Christian doctrine and teachings. They would have
                      > no,
                      > > as you say, valid defense.
                      > >
                      > > But what about the people whom the missionaries never reached,
                      > never
                      > > heard of Jesus or the Gospel of Salvation? Are these folks
                      > > automatically condemned to Hell's Fire merely because "they did not
                      > > know"?
                      > >
                      > > One of the reasons that I remain skeptical (but still receptive)
                      > > towards the orthodox Christian faith is that I really can't believe
                      > > God would leave the job of Salvation to us, humans, who are
                      > > notoriously misguided and unreliable.
                      > >
                      > > Of course some Calvinists will deny that Salvation is decided by us
                      > > humans. It was, they say, decided before Adam. But, if so, why
                      > bother
                      > > with Mat 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing
                      > > them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy
                      > Ghost"
                      > >
                      > > But what if the foreigners in those nations can't be reached or die
                      > > before the missionaries reach them? Or what happens to the
                      > foreigners
                      > > if the missionary apostatizes or gets killed just before the
                      > foreigner
                      > > would have been converted? ... or worse gets converted to an
                      > invalid
                      > > religion (I won't name these, but you know them).
                      > >
                      > > Who gets the blame if the foreigner dies in his sins: the
                      > missionary
                      > > or the foreigner?
                      > >
                      > > I believe the Bible teaches that God looks in your heart and how
                      > you
                      > > lived your life to decide your fate. Requiring a person to invoke
                      > > sacred names and beliefs to be Saved somehow smacks of idolatry,
                      > i.e.
                      > > the kind of religion that Judeo-Christians have always opposed.
                      > >
                      > > Rom 10:13 As the scripture says, "Everyone who calls out to the
                      > Lord
                      > > for help will be saved."
                      > > Rom 10:8 ... "God's message is near you, on your lips and in your
                      > heart"
                      > > ...
                      > > Luk 12:34 For your heart will always be where your riches are.
                      > >
                      > > The prophet Jeremiah:
                      > > "I [YHWH speaking] will put my law within them and write it on
                      > their
                      > > hearts... None of them will have to teach a neighbor to know YHWH,
                      > > because all will know me, from the least to the greatest. I will
                      > > forgive their sins and I will no longer remember their wrongs. I,
                      > > YHWH, have spoken."
                      > >
                      > > Jesus:
                      > > Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for
                      > > salvation is of the Jews.
                      > >
                      > > The Apostle Paul:
                      > > Act 17:23 For as I walked through your city and looked at the
                      > places
                      > > where you worship, I found an altar on which is written, 'To an
                      > > Unknown God.' That which you worship, then, even though you do not
                      > > know it, is what I now proclaim to you.
                      > > Act 17:24 God, who made the world and everything in it, is Lord of
                      > > heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands.
                      > > Act 17:25 Nor does he need anything that we can supply by working
                      > for
                      > > him, since it is he himself who gives life and breath and
                      > everything
                      > > else to everyone.
                      > >
                      > > We all worship an "unknown" God in the sense that none of us really
                      > > knows God completely. Some of us believe that we must depend on the
                      > > words in a Book to carry out our worship.
                      > >
                      > > I am sustained by those words too, but don't necessarily believe
                      > all
                      > > that is written (Proverbs 14:15).
                      > >
                      > > I therefore call upon the Lord for help: to look in my heart and
                      > help
                      > > me in my unbelief.
                      > >
                      > > -Johanus Dagius
                      > >
                      > > "For in him we live, and move, and have our being" Acts 17:28



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Y'shuaborn
                      Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
                        Rom 2:14
                        <http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=2&verse=14&version=kjv>
                        For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things
                        contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

                        Rom 2:15
                        <http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=2&verse=15&version=kjv>
                        Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their
                        conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while
                        accusing or else excusing one another;)

                        Rom 2:16
                        <http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=2&verse=16&version=kjv>
                        In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ
                        according to my gospel.

                        It looks like there is no "virtue" in not having heard the truth about
                        G-d. No escape from His judgment.

                        yusefii@... wrote:

                        >Johanus wrote:
                        >
                        ><< Y'shuaBorn wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >>I hope that's not the case but more importantly, it will not be a
                        >>
                        >>
                        >valid
                        >
                        >
                        >>defense (none exists) when those unbelievers and New Agers stand
                        >>
                        >>
                        >before
                        >
                        >
                        >>The Judge of the Universe. He doesn't call them to follow
                        >>
                        >>
                        >"Christians"
                        >
                        >
                        >>but to follow Him; to obey His word.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >Perhaps these folks can get the late great Johnny Cochran to defend
                        >them: "Your Almighty Honor! My client pleads that he Did Not Know. So,
                        >to Your Kingdom You must let him Go!"
                        >
                        >Nah, probably wouldn't work, especially if these folks had been warned
                        >i.e. exposed to Christian doctrine and teachings. They would have no,
                        >as you say, valid defense.
                        >
                        >But what about the people whom the missionaries never reached, never
                        >heard of Jesus or the Gospel of Salvation? Are these folks
                        >automatically condemned to Hell's Fire merely because "they did not
                        >know"? >>
                        >
                        >Of course they will not be condemned in virtue of their not having heard, believed, trusted in, or known the good news of Christ. But those who do not believe on God and have not heard the good news will nonetheless be condemned, for every one of them has done wrong regardless and, if someone should insist that I mention this, unbelievers do not obey God's law while the mind set on the flesh *cannot* submit to God's law as Paul informs us in his epistle to the Romans. Things such as those that Christ mentions in Mark 7:21-23--evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness--everyone is guilty of one of these, whether they have heard the gospel or not, and will be punished in a manner commensurate with their crimes.
                        >
                        >
                        >It was also said:
                        >
                        ><< One of the reasons that I remain skeptical (but still receptive)
                        >towards the orthodox Christian faith is that I really can't believe
                        >God would leave the job of Salvation to us, humans, who are
                        >notoriously misguided and unreliable.
                        >
                        >Of course some Calvinists will deny that Salvation is decided by us
                        >humans. It was, they say, decided before Adam. But, if so, why bother
                        >with Mat 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing
                        >them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" >>
                        >
                        >I'm still not sure why people don't get this, but this reminds me of something Dr. Fischer once said in class regarding the issue of determinism: even if it is predetermined that you eat at Denny's tonight, you're still not going to end up eating there unless you get up and go thither. The results of actions in this universe tend to have means, and why can it not be that God is pleased to use *means* to the end of saving his elect?
                        >
                        >
                        >More:
                        >
                        ><< But what if the foreigners in those nations can't be reached or die
                        >before the missionaries reach them? Or what happens to the foreigners
                        >if the missionary apostatizes or gets killed just before the foreigner
                        >would have been converted? ... or worse gets converted to an invalid
                        >religion (I won't name these, but you know them).
                        >
                        >Who gets the blame if the foreigner dies in his sins: the missionary
                        >or the foreigner?
                        >
                        >I believe the Bible teaches that God looks in your heart and how you
                        >lived your life to decide your fate. Requiring a person to invoke
                        >sacred names and beliefs to be Saved somehow smacks of idolatry, i.e.
                        >the kind of religion that Judeo-Christians have always opposed. >>
                        >
                        >Well, thankfully God takes the stony hearts of some and makes them to be things both living and responsive, a change of heart in itself not being something sufficient to produce liberty from bondage to sin or power to do God's will. Meanwhile, you don't want God to bless you based merely upon the number or greatness of supposed good deeds of yours that you yourself have done and what things you yourself have not done; if He did, you would soon enough realize the sort of thing that the apostle Paul was talking about in Galatians 2 when he said that if righteousness could be gained by the law, then Christ died for nothing (though He obviously did not die for nothing). Of course, when a person realizes that he is a lawbreaker, and that a day is coming when those who do wrong will be punished, and that he cannot save himself and as a result cries out to God for mercy in desperation and in believing that He is merciful, well, this sounds like Romans, chapter four to me.
                        >
                        >And it's good to talk about basic things like these right now. With John Paul's death now being a reality and the selection of a new "Pope" apparentely looming, these issues will arise, and perhaps even more if they were right all along in the early nineties saying that the next "Pope" would be the man of lawlessness that Paul talked about; and it wasn't just Protestants saying that either.
                        >
                        >-Kwame
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Y'shuaborn
                        I don t know what TM refers to. I didn t say unbelievers have nothing to defend, whatever that means. I said they will be utterly without a defense. 2Pe 2:12
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
                          I don't know what "TM" refers to. I didn't say unbelievers have nothing
                          to defend, whatever that means. I said they will be utterly without a
                          defense.
                          2Pe 2:12
                          <http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Pe&chapter=2&verse=12&version=kjv>
                          But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed,
                          speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly
                          perish in their own corruption;



                          william_elkins2000@... wrote:

                          >
                          > --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "william_elkins2000"
                          > <william_elkins2000@y...> wrote:
                          > > ok so what your saying is that non-believers,in general have
                          > nothing to defend? i can see your point but i think they have a lot
                          > to defend issues like TM for instance we ve gotten God all figured
                          > out by wearing our'christian dress' as well(so to speak) and this is
                          > not a 'valid' defence?
                          > I agree
                          > Will.
                          >
                          >
                          > > --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "jdagius" <jdagius@y...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > not followinfg you Y'shuaBorn. What does not exist? a VALID
                          > defence?
                          > > or a important defence of New agers?
                          > >
                          > > Will
                          > > > Y'shuaBorn wrote:
                          > > > > I hope that's not the case but more importantly, it will not be
                          > a
                          > > > valid
                          > > > > defense (none exists) when those unbelievers and New Agers
                          > stand
                          > > > before
                          > > > > The Judge of the Universe. He doesn't call them to follow
                          > > > "Christians"
                          > > > > but to follow Him; to obey His word.
                          > > >
                          > > > Perhaps these folks can get the late great Johnny Cochran to
                          > defend
                          > > > them: "Your Almighty Honor! My client pleads that he Did Not
                          > Know.
                          > > So,
                          > > > to Your Kingdom You must let him Go!"
                          > > >
                          > > > Nah, probably wouldn't work, especially if these folks had been
                          > > warned
                          > > > i.e. exposed to Christian doctrine and teachings. They would have
                          > > no,
                          > > > as you say, valid defense.
                          > > >
                          > > > But what about the people whom the missionaries never reached,
                          > > never
                          > > > heard of Jesus or the Gospel of Salvation? Are these folks
                          > > > automatically condemned to Hell's Fire merely because "they did
                          > not
                          > > > know"?
                          > > >
                          > > > One of the reasons that I remain skeptical (but still receptive)
                          > > > towards the orthodox Christian faith is that I really can't
                          > believe
                          > > > God would leave the job of Salvation to us, humans, who are
                          > > > notoriously misguided and unreliable.
                          > > >
                          > > > Of course some Calvinists will deny that Salvation is decided by
                          > us
                          > > > humans. It was, they say, decided before Adam. But, if so, why
                          > > bother
                          > > > with Mat 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
                          > baptizing
                          > > > them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy
                          > > Ghost"
                          > > >
                          > > > But what if the foreigners in those nations can't be reached or
                          > die
                          > > > before the missionaries reach them? Or what happens to the
                          > > foreigners
                          > > > if the missionary apostatizes or gets killed just before the
                          > > foreigner
                          > > > would have been converted? ... or worse gets converted to an
                          > > invalid
                          > > > religion (I won't name these, but you know them).
                          > > >
                          > > > Who gets the blame if the foreigner dies in his sins: the
                          > > missionary
                          > > > or the foreigner?
                          > > >
                          > > > I believe the Bible teaches that God looks in your heart and how
                          > > you
                          > > > lived your life to decide your fate. Requiring a person to invoke
                          > > > sacred names and beliefs to be Saved somehow smacks of idolatry,
                          > > i.e.
                          > > > the kind of religion that Judeo-Christians have always opposed.
                          > > >
                          > > > Rom 10:13 As the scripture says, "Everyone who calls out to the
                          > > Lord
                          > > > for help will be saved."
                          > > > Rom 10:8 ... "God's message is near you, on your lips and in your
                          > > heart"
                          > > > ...
                          > > > Luk 12:34 For your heart will always be where your riches are.
                          > > >
                          > > > The prophet Jeremiah:
                          > > > "I [YHWH speaking] will put my law within them and write it on
                          > > their
                          > > > hearts... None of them will have to teach a neighbor to know YHWH,
                          > > > because all will know me, from the least to the greatest. I will
                          > > > forgive their sins and I will no longer remember their wrongs. I,
                          > > > YHWH, have spoken."
                          > > >
                          > > > Jesus:
                          > > > Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship:
                          > for
                          > > > salvation is of the Jews.
                          > > >
                          > > > The Apostle Paul:
                          > > > Act 17:23 For as I walked through your city and looked at the
                          > > places
                          > > > where you worship, I found an altar on which is written, 'To an
                          > > > Unknown God.' That which you worship, then, even though you do
                          > not
                          > > > know it, is what I now proclaim to you.
                          > > > Act 17:24 God, who made the world and everything in it, is Lord
                          > of
                          > > > heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human
                          > hands.
                          > > > Act 17:25 Nor does he need anything that we can supply by
                          > working
                          > > for
                          > > > him, since it is he himself who gives life and breath and
                          > > everything
                          > > > else to everyone.
                          > > >
                          > > > We all worship an "unknown" God in the sense that none of us
                          > really
                          > > > knows God completely. Some of us believe that we must depend on
                          > the
                          > > > words in a Book to carry out our worship.
                          > > >
                          > > > I am sustained by those words too, but don't necessarily believe
                          > > all
                          > > > that is written (Proverbs 14:15).
                          > > >
                          > > > I therefore call upon the Lord for help: to look in my heart and
                          > > help
                          > > > me in my unbelief.
                          > > >
                          > > > -Johanus Dagius
                          > > >
                          > > > "For in him we live, and move, and have our being" Acts 17:28
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • william_elkins2000
                          ... nothing ... a ... book=2Pe&chapter=2&verse=12&version=kjv ... destroyed, ... utterly ... lot ... is ... not be ... been ... have ... did ... receptive)
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
                            --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Y'shuaborn" <DFism@n...> wrote:
                            > I don't know what "TM" refers to. I didn't say unbelievers have
                            nothing
                            > to defend, whatever that means. I said they will be utterly without
                            a
                            > defense.
                            > 2Pe 2:12
                            > <http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?
                            book=2Pe&chapter=2&verse=12&version=kjv>
                            > But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and
                            destroyed,
                            > speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall
                            utterly
                            > perish in their own corruption;
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > william_elkins2000@y... wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > > --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "william_elkins2000"
                            > > <william_elkins2000@y...> wrote:
                            > > > ok so what your saying is that non-believers,in general have
                            > > nothing to defend? i can see your point but i think they have a
                            lot
                            > > to defend issues like TM for instance we ve gotten God all figured
                            > > out by wearing our'christian dress' as well(so to speak) and this
                            is
                            > > not a 'valid' defence?
                            > > I agree
                            > > Will.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "jdagius" <jdagius@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > not followinfg you Y'shuaBorn. What does not exist? a VALID
                            > > defence?
                            > > > or a important defence of New agers?
                            > > >
                            > > > Will
                            > > > > Y'shuaBorn wrote:
                            > > > > > I hope that's not the case but more importantly, it will
                            not be
                            > > a
                            > > > > valid
                            > > > > > defense (none exists) when those unbelievers and New Agers
                            > > stand
                            > > > > before
                            > > > > > The Judge of the Universe. He doesn't call them to follow
                            > > > > "Christians"
                            > > > > > but to follow Him; to obey His word.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Perhaps these folks can get the late great Johnny Cochran to
                            > > defend
                            > > > > them: "Your Almighty Honor! My client pleads that he Did Not
                            > > Know.
                            > > > So,
                            > > > > to Your Kingdom You must let him Go!"
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Nah, probably wouldn't work, especially if these folks had
                            been
                            > > > warned
                            > > > > i.e. exposed to Christian doctrine and teachings. They would
                            have
                            > > > no,
                            > > > > as you say, valid defense.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > But what about the people whom the missionaries never reached,
                            > > > never
                            > > > > heard of Jesus or the Gospel of Salvation? Are these folks
                            > > > > automatically condemned to Hell's Fire merely because "they
                            did
                            > > not
                            > > > > know"?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > One of the reasons that I remain skeptical (but still
                            receptive)
                            > > > > towards the orthodox Christian faith is that I really can't
                            > > believe
                            > > > > God would leave the job of Salvation to us, humans, who are
                            > > > > notoriously misguided and unreliable.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Of course some Calvinists will deny that Salvation is decided
                            by
                            > > us
                            > > > > humans. It was, they say, decided before Adam. But, if so, why
                            > > > bother
                            > > > > with Mat 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
                            > > baptizing
                            > > > > them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the
                            Holy
                            > > > Ghost"
                            > > > >
                            > > > > But what if the foreigners in those nations can't be reached
                            or
                            > > die
                            > > > > before the missionaries reach them? Or what happens to the
                            > > > foreigners
                            > > > > if the missionary apostatizes or gets killed just before the
                            > > > foreigner
                            > > > > would have been converted? ... or worse gets converted to an
                            > > > invalid
                            > > > > religion (I won't name these, but you know them).
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Who gets the blame if the foreigner dies in his sins: the
                            > > > missionary
                            > > > > or the foreigner?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I believe the Bible teaches that God looks in your heart and
                            how
                            > > > you
                            > > > > lived your life to decide your fate. Requiring a person to
                            invoke
                            > > > > sacred names and beliefs to be Saved somehow smacks of
                            idolatry,
                            > > > i.e.
                            > > > > the kind of religion that Judeo-Christians have always
                            opposed.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Rom 10:13 As the scripture says, "Everyone who calls out to
                            the
                            > > > Lord
                            > > > > for help will be saved."
                            > > > > Rom 10:8 ... "God's message is near you, on your lips and in
                            your
                            > > > heart"
                            > > > > ...
                            > > > > Luk 12:34 For your heart will always be where your riches
                            are.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The prophet Jeremiah:
                            > > > > "I [YHWH speaking] will put my law within them and write it on
                            > > > their
                            > > > > hearts... None of them will have to teach a neighbor to know
                            YHWH,
                            > > > > because all will know me, from the least to the greatest. I
                            will
                            > > > > forgive their sins and I will no longer remember their
                            wrongs. I,
                            > > > > YHWH, have spoken."
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Jesus:
                            > > > > Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we
                            worship:
                            > > for
                            > > > > salvation is of the Jews.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The Apostle Paul:
                            > > > > Act 17:23 For as I walked through your city and looked at the
                            > > > places
                            > > > > where you worship, I found an altar on which is written, 'To
                            an
                            > > > > Unknown God.' That which you worship, then, even though you do
                            > > not
                            > > > > know it, is what I now proclaim to you.
                            > > > > Act 17:24 God, who made the world and everything in it, is
                            Lord
                            > > of
                            > > > > heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human
                            > > hands.
                            > > > > Act 17:25 Nor does he need anything that we can supply by
                            > > working
                            > > > for
                            > > > > him, since it is he himself who gives life and breath and
                            > > > everything
                            > > > > else to everyone.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > We all worship an "unknown" God in the sense that none of us
                            > > really
                            > > > > knows God completely. Some of us believe that we must depend
                            on
                            > > the
                            > > > > words in a Book to carry out our worship.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I am sustained by those words too, but don't necessarily
                            believe
                            > > > all
                            > > > > that is written (Proverbs 14:15).
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I therefore call upon the Lord for help: to look in my heart
                            and
                            > > > help
                            > > > > me in my unbelief.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > -Johanus Dagius
                            > > > >
                            > > > > "For in him we live, and move, and have our being" Acts 17:28
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                            > > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                            > > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the
                            Whole
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                            > >
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                            20International>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > im sure you heard about this or have seen it. It is within Depot
                            Chopras camp. when I say they've goten God all figured out I mean to
                            say they are very much into chant and meditations. Ive got a good
                            website on it. the intervarsity philosophy group here at school has
                            been doing things and writing things on this. But to say any further
                            they do not rely on any objectivity within The bible or Christ
                            himself but thet have something by doing this practice of
                            trancendental meditation. If youre into Tai Chi(sp) Im sure thisw is
                            a good example
                            Will -----------------------------------------------------------------
                            -------
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apologetics/
                            > >
                            > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > apologetics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > > <mailto:apologetics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
                            subject=Unsubscribe>
                            > >
                            > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]11
                          • Johanus Dagius
                            Bill Nugent (and others interested in this ice core dating discussion) should read Don Lindsay s informative article on the the Greenland ice sheet:
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
                              Bill Nugent (and others interested in this ice core dating
                              discussion) should read Don Lindsay's informative article on the the
                              Greenland ice sheet:

                              http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/icecap_synch.html

                              Don has some nice web pages on the entire Creation/Evolution
                              controversy: http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/index.html

                              I like his web stuff because he really tries to be fair-minded and
                              looks at both sides of the issues, unlike some organizations
                              (specifically, ICR) who seem to deliberately distort and misrepresent
                              Evolution, evidently in some kind of misguided attempt to serve and
                              protect God from criticism.

                              Actually, God needs no protection. These folks should read 2 Cor 4:2
                              and realize that their chosen method of defending the faith is
                              thoroughly un-Biblical.

                              God help us all.

                              -Dagius

                              2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not
                              walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but
                              by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's
                              conscience in the sight of God.
                            • Y'shuaborn
                              Deepak Chopra and other worshippers of the Darkness have, indeed, figured many ways to worship the Evil One. However, the One true G-d declares what is
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
                                Deepak Chopra and other worshippers of the Darkness have, indeed,
                                figured many ways to worship the Evil One. However, the One true G-d
                                declares what is acceptable worship. Anything else is not worship and
                                self-deception.

                                william_elkins2000@... wrote:

                                > I'm sure you heard about this or have seen it. It is within Depot
                                > Chopras camp. when I say they've goten God all figured out I mean to
                                > say they are very much into chant and meditations. Ive got a good
                                > website on it. the intervarsity philosophy group here at school has
                                > been doing things and writing things on this. But to say any further
                                > they do not rely on any objectivity within The bible or Christ
                                > himself but thet have something by doing this practice of
                                > trancendental meditation. If youre into Tai Chi(sp) Im sure thisw is
                                > a good example
                                > Will



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • william_elkins2000
                                -yes and that is why I brought up Deepak chopra was because You had mentioned New age movement Will-- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, Y shuaborn
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 7, 2005
                                  -yes and that is why I brought up Deepak chopra was because You had
                                  mentioned New age movement

                                  Will-- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Y'shuaborn" <DFism@n...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > Deepak Chopra and other worshippers of the Darkness have, indeed,
                                  > figured many ways to worship the Evil One. However, the One true G-
                                  d
                                  > declares what is acceptable worship. Anything else is not worship
                                  and
                                  > self-deception.
                                  >
                                  > william_elkins2000@y... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > I'm sure you heard about this or have seen it. It is within Depot
                                  > > Chopras camp. when I say they've goten God all figured out I mean
                                  to
                                  > > say they are very much into chant and meditations. Ive got a good
                                  > > website on it. the intervarsity philosophy group here at school
                                  has
                                  > > been doing things and writing things on this. But to say any
                                  further
                                  > > they do not rely on any objectivity within The bible or Christ
                                  > > himself but thet have something by doing this practice of
                                  > > trancendental meditation. If youre into Tai Chi(sp) Im sure thisw
                                  is
                                  > > a good example
                                  > > Will
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Y'shuaborn
                                  If some remote tribe somewhere never receives a missionary and therefore never hears about the G-d of the Bible or the Son, they will be judged by the laws the
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 24, 2005
                                    If some remote tribe somewhere never receives a missionary and therefore
                                    never hears about the G-d of the Bible or the Son, they will be judged
                                    by the laws the G-d they never heard about wrote on their hearts when He
                                    made them: not to kill, not to steal, love their children, etc.....all
                                    societies have these and more. Being judged by your heart is not such a
                                    good thing if you don't have Jesus because your heart will condemn you
                                    otherwise. G-d has said the human heart is deceitful and wicked. That
                                    should take care the missionary-at-fault idea you raised.

                                    As you said, the misguided and unreliable nature of fallen man is not
                                    capable of achieving its own salvation. Praise G-d He did not do that
                                    but sent His only begotten Son to be our Redeemer. As far as any other
                                    religion goes, the first commandment answers your question on that
                                    score. G-d will not overlook such a thing no matter how much people want
                                    to belive He will. Our G-d is the only known G-d. We know Him through
                                    His word, and historically He was also known by His interactions with
                                    His set-apart people.

                                    jdagius@... wrote:

                                    > ...especially if these folks had been warned i.e. exposed to
                                    > Christian doctrine and teachings. They would have no, as you say,
                                    > valid defense.
                                    >
                                    > But what about the people whom the missionaries never reached, never
                                    > heard of Jesus or the Gospel of Salvation? Are these folks
                                    > automatically condemned to Hell's Fire merely because "they did not
                                    > know"?
                                    >
                                    > One of the reasons that I remain skeptical (but still receptive)
                                    > towards the orthodox Christian faith is that I really can't believe
                                    > God would leave the job of Salvation to us, humans, who are
                                    > notoriously misguided and unreliable.
                                    >
                                    > But what if the foreigners in those nations can't be reached or die
                                    > before the missionaries reach them? Or what happens to the foreigners
                                    > if the missionary apostatizes or gets killed just before the foreigner
                                    > would have been converted? ... or worse gets converted to an invalid
                                    > religion (I won't name these, but you know them).
                                    >
                                    > Who gets the blame if the foreigner dies in his sins: the missionary
                                    > or the foreigner?
                                    >
                                    > I believe the Bible teaches that God looks in your heart and how you
                                    > lived your life to decide your fate. Requiring a person to invoke
                                    > sacred names and beliefs to be Saved somehow smacks of idolatry, i.e.
                                    > the kind of religion that Judeo-Christians have always opposed.
                                    >
                                    > We all worship an "unknown" God in the sense that none of us really
                                    > knows God completely. Some of us believe that we must depend on the
                                    > words in a Book to carry out our worship.
                                    >
                                    > I therefore call upon the Lord for help: to look in my heart and help
                                    > me in my unbelief.
                                    >
                                    > -Johanus Dagius



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Robert Bassett
                                    ... therefore ... He ... a ... This is an interesting question, first from the scriptures we understand the principle of foreordination. That God loved Jacob
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 24, 2005
                                      > If some remote tribe somewhere never receives a missionary and
                                      therefore
                                      > never hears about the G-d of the Bible or the Son, they will be judged
                                      > by the laws the G-d they never heard about wrote on their hearts when
                                      He
                                      > made them: not to kill, not to steal, love their children, etc.....all
                                      > societies have these and more. Being judged by your heart is not such
                                      a
                                      >good thing if you don't have Jesus because your heart will condemn you
                                      > otherwise. G-d has said the human heart is deceitful and wicked. That
                                      > should take care the missionary-at-fault idea you raised.


                                      This is an interesting question, first from the scriptures we understand
                                      the principle of foreordination. That God loved Jacob move than Esau from
                                      the womb Romans 9:10-14 and that certain individuals were specifically
                                      chosen to born into select lineages to born in the covenant. Jeremiah 1:4-5
                                      explains how God knows individuals before they are born and calls his
                                      leaders and the elect before they are born. He also then chooses
                                      individuals like Esau and Pharaoh as individuals that he hate before they
                                      are born also. Like your comment above people born outside of the covenant
                                      and in a position not to hear the missionaries may have put in that
                                      situation Based on the foreknowledge of God.

                                      Then in 1 Peter 3:18-20 we understand that between his crucifixion and his
                                      resurrection Christ as a spirit went and preached to the spirits in prison
                                      that were also the disobedient children some of which had died during the
                                      flood. He not only broke the bonds of physical death both also spiritual
                                      death and crossed the divide separating those in Spiritual prison and those
                                      in paradise. He did this so that although they were spirits they could
                                      learn about Christ and accept the gospel and be judged according to man in
                                      the flesh. 1 Peter 4:6.

                                      I also believe that little children under 8 years old and who die are
                                      received automatically into paradise and although they must also learn the
                                      gospel will be a part of the first resurrection based on their innocence.

                                      > As you said, the misguided and unreliable nature of fallen man is not
                                      > capable of achieving its own salvation. Praise G-d He did not do that
                                      > but sent His only begotten Son to be our Redeemer. As far as any other
                                      > religion goes, the first commandment answers your question on that
                                      > score. G-d will not overlook such a thing no matter how much people want
                                      > to belive He will. Our G-d is the only known G-d. We know Him through
                                      > His word, and historically He was also known by His interactions with
                                      > His set-apart people.


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Dana
                                      why eight in particular? this is probably not worth discussing, but I would have assumed 12, if there is a cut-off age, as that is the age of religious
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jun 24, 2005
                                        why eight in particular? this is probably not worth discussing, but I
                                        would have assumed 12, if there is a "cut-off" age, as that is the age
                                        of religious maturity, by Jewish custom.

                                        I always found it interesting that this particular custom also
                                        parallels the age when a child developmentally becomes able to reason
                                        abstractly. And would thus be able to come to abstract conclusions...

                                        Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the
                                        world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,
                                        even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

                                        --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Bassett" <rbassett@c...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > If some remote tribe somewhere never receives a missionary and
                                        > therefore
                                        > > never hears about the G-d of the Bible or the Son, they will
                                        be judged
                                        > > by the laws the G-d they never heard about wrote on their
                                        hearts when
                                        > He
                                        > > made them: not to kill, not to steal, love their children,
                                        etc.....all
                                        > > societies have these and more. Being judged by your heart is
                                        not such
                                        > a
                                        > >good thing if you don't have Jesus because your heart will
                                        condemn you
                                        > > otherwise. G-d has said the human heart is deceitful and
                                        wicked. That
                                        > > should take care the missionary-at-fault idea you raised.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > This is an interesting question, first from the scriptures we
                                        understand
                                        > the principle of foreordination. That God loved Jacob move than
                                        Esau from
                                        > the womb Romans 9:10-14 and that certain individuals were specifically
                                        > chosen to born into select lineages to born in the covenant.
                                        Jeremiah 1:4-5
                                        > explains how God knows individuals before they are born and calls his
                                        > leaders and the elect before they are born. He also then chooses
                                        > individuals like Esau and Pharaoh as individuals that he hate before
                                        they
                                        > are born also. Like your comment above people born outside of the
                                        covenant
                                        > and in a position not to hear the missionaries may have put in that
                                        > situation Based on the foreknowledge of God.
                                        >
                                        > Then in 1 Peter 3:18-20 we understand that between his crucifixion
                                        and his
                                        > resurrection Christ as a spirit went and preached to the spirits in
                                        prison
                                        > that were also the disobedient children some of which had died
                                        during the
                                        > flood. He not only broke the bonds of physical death both also
                                        spiritual
                                        > death and crossed the divide separating those in Spiritual prison
                                        and those
                                        > in paradise. He did this so that although they were spirits they could
                                        > learn about Christ and accept the gospel and be judged according to
                                        man in
                                        > the flesh. 1 Peter 4:6.
                                        >
                                        > I also believe that little children under 8 years old and who die are
                                        > received automatically into paradise and although they must also
                                        learn the
                                        > gospel will be a part of the first resurrection based on their
                                        innocence.
                                        >
                                        > > As you said, the misguided and unreliable nature of fallen man
                                        is not
                                        > > capable of achieving its own salvation. Praise G-d He did not do
                                        that
                                        > > but sent His only begotten Son to be our Redeemer. As far as any
                                        other
                                        > > religion goes, the first commandment answers your question on that
                                        > > score. G-d will not overlook such a thing no matter how much
                                        people want
                                        > > to belive He will. Our G-d is the only known G-d. We know Him
                                        through
                                        > > His word, and historically He was also known by His interactions
                                        with
                                        > > His set-apart people.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Robert Bassett
                                        I think religious maturity arrives later than accountability. From my understanding Levites didn t practice until they were 30 years old. There is an
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jun 24, 2005
                                          I think religious maturity arrives later than accountability. From my
                                          understanding Levites didn't practice until they were 30 years old. There
                                          is an interesting reference to 8 in 1 peter 3:20-21. Speaking of the
                                          spirits in prison that Christ preached to ..which sometimes were
                                          disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
                                          while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved
                                          by water, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also save us .....

                                          I think Peter is saying that the earth was cleansed as by a baptism and
                                          8 souls were saved. The like figure (8) is also the age of accountability
                                          when a child can recognize good from evil and is the age at which children
                                          during his time were baptized and thus also enters into a covenant to be
                                          saved.
                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: apologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:apologetics@yahoogroups.com]On
                                          Behalf Of Dana
                                          Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 3:53 PM
                                          To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Question


                                          why eight in particular? this is probably not worth discussing, but I
                                          would have assumed 12, if there is a "cut-off" age, as that is the age
                                          of religious maturity, by Jewish custom.

                                          I always found it interesting that this particular custom also
                                          parallels the age when a child developmentally becomes able to reason
                                          abstractly. And would thus be able to come to abstract conclusions...

                                          Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the
                                          world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,
                                          even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

                                          --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Bassett" <rbassett@c...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > If some remote tribe somewhere never receives a missionary and
                                          > therefore
                                          > > never hears about the G-d of the Bible or the Son, they will
                                          be judged
                                          > > by the laws the G-d they never heard about wrote on their
                                          hearts when
                                          > He
                                          > > made them: not to kill, not to steal, love their children,
                                          etc.....all
                                          > > societies have these and more. Being judged by your heart is
                                          not such
                                          > a
                                          > >good thing if you don't have Jesus because your heart will
                                          condemn you
                                          > > otherwise. G-d has said the human heart is deceitful and
                                          wicked. That
                                          > > should take care the missionary-at-fault idea you raised.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > This is an interesting question, first from the scriptures we
                                          understand
                                          > the principle of foreordination. That God loved Jacob move than
                                          Esau from
                                          > the womb Romans 9:10-14 and that certain individuals were specifically
                                          > chosen to born into select lineages to born in the covenant.
                                          Jeremiah 1:4-5
                                          > explains how God knows individuals before they are born and calls his
                                          > leaders and the elect before they are born. He also then chooses
                                          > individuals like Esau and Pharaoh as individuals that he hate before
                                          they
                                          > are born also. Like your comment above people born outside of the
                                          covenant
                                          > and in a position not to hear the missionaries may have put in that
                                          > situation Based on the foreknowledge of God.
                                          >
                                          > Then in 1 Peter 3:18-20 we understand that between his crucifixion
                                          and his
                                          > resurrection Christ as a spirit went and preached to the spirits in
                                          prison
                                          > that were also the disobedient children some of which had died
                                          during the
                                          > flood. He not only broke the bonds of physical death both also
                                          spiritual
                                          > death and crossed the divide separating those in Spiritual prison
                                          and those
                                          > in paradise. He did this so that although they were spirits they could
                                          > learn about Christ and accept the gospel and be judged according to
                                          man in
                                          > the flesh. 1 Peter 4:6.
                                          >
                                          > I also believe that little children under 8 years old and who die are
                                          > received automatically into paradise and although they must also
                                          learn the
                                          > gospel will be a part of the first resurrection based on their
                                          innocence.
                                          >
                                          > > As you said, the misguided and unreliable nature of fallen man
                                          is not
                                          > > capable of achieving its own salvation. Praise G-d He did not do
                                          that
                                          > > but sent His only begotten Son to be our Redeemer. As far as any
                                          other
                                          > > religion goes, the first commandment answers your question on that
                                          > > score. G-d will not overlook such a thing no matter how much
                                          people want
                                          > > to belive He will. Our G-d is the only known G-d. We know Him
                                          through
                                          > > His word, and historically He was also known by His interactions
                                          with
                                          > > His set-apart people.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Dana
                                          religious maturity comes at twelve...i believe a young jewish boy could then also become an elder or something, at any rate, he took on religious
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jun 24, 2005
                                            religious maturity comes at twelve...i believe a young jewish boy
                                            could then also become an elder or something, at any rate, he took on
                                            religious responsibility at that age.

                                            they left apprenticeship at 30, whether it was religious training, or
                                            carpentry, and could at that time be considered a master in the trade

                                            i don't see where you can jump from eight souls to 8 years...

                                            the word "figure" comes from a greek word meaning "representative
                                            counterpart" and does not refer to the number eight but to the entire
                                            picture of the flood compared to baptism
                                            --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Bassett" <rbassett@c...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > I think religious maturity arrives later than accountability. From my
                                            > understanding Levites didn't practice until they were 30 years old.
                                            There
                                            > is an interesting reference to 8 in 1 peter 3:20-21. Speaking of the
                                            > spirits in prison that Christ preached to ..which sometimes were
                                            > disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days
                                            of Noah,
                                            > while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls
                                            were saved
                                            > by water, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also save us
                                            .....
                                            >
                                            > I think Peter is saying that the earth was cleansed as by a
                                            baptism and
                                            > 8 souls were saved. The like figure (8) is also the age of
                                            accountability
                                            > when a child can recognize good from evil and is the age at which
                                            children
                                            > during his time were baptized and thus also enters into a covenant to be
                                            > saved.
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                                            [mailto:apologetics@yahoogroups.com]On
                                            > Behalf Of Dana
                                            > Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 3:53 PM
                                            > To: apologetics@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: Re: [apologetics and theology] Question
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > why eight in particular? this is probably not worth discussing, but I
                                            > would have assumed 12, if there is a "cut-off" age, as that is the age
                                            > of religious maturity, by Jewish custom.
                                            >
                                            > I always found it interesting that this particular custom also
                                            > parallels the age when a child developmentally becomes able to reason
                                            > abstractly. And would thus be able to come to abstract conclusions...
                                            >
                                            > Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the
                                            > world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,
                                            > even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
                                            >
                                            > --- In apologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Bassett" <rbassett@c...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > > If some remote tribe somewhere never receives a missionary and
                                            > > therefore
                                            > > > never hears about the G-d of the Bible or the Son, they will
                                            > be judged
                                            > > > by the laws the G-d they never heard about wrote on their
                                            > hearts when
                                            > > He
                                            > > > made them: not to kill, not to steal, love their children,
                                            > etc.....all
                                            > > > societies have these and more. Being judged by your heart is
                                            > not such
                                            > > a
                                            > > >good thing if you don't have Jesus because your heart will
                                            > condemn you
                                            > > > otherwise. G-d has said the human heart is deceitful and
                                            > wicked. That
                                            > > > should take care the missionary-at-fault idea you raised.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > This is an interesting question, first from the scriptures we
                                            > understand
                                            > > the principle of foreordination. That God loved Jacob move than
                                            > Esau from
                                            > > the womb Romans 9:10-14 and that certain individuals were
                                            specifically
                                            > > chosen to born into select lineages to born in the covenant.
                                            > Jeremiah 1:4-5
                                            > > explains how God knows individuals before they are born and
                                            calls his
                                            > > leaders and the elect before they are born. He also then chooses
                                            > > individuals like Esau and Pharaoh as individuals that he hate before
                                            > they
                                            > > are born also. Like your comment above people born outside of the
                                            > covenant
                                            > > and in a position not to hear the missionaries may have put in that
                                            > > situation Based on the foreknowledge of God.
                                            > >
                                            > > Then in 1 Peter 3:18-20 we understand that between his crucifixion
                                            > and his
                                            > > resurrection Christ as a spirit went and preached to the spirits in
                                            > prison
                                            > > that were also the disobedient children some of which had died
                                            > during the
                                            > > flood. He not only broke the bonds of physical death both also
                                            > spiritual
                                            > > death and crossed the divide separating those in Spiritual prison
                                            > and those
                                            > > in paradise. He did this so that although they were spirits
                                            they could
                                            > > learn about Christ and accept the gospel and be judged according to
                                            > man in
                                            > > the flesh. 1 Peter 4:6.
                                            > >
                                            > > I also believe that little children under 8 years old and who
                                            die are
                                            > > received automatically into paradise and although they must also
                                            > learn the
                                            > > gospel will be a part of the first resurrection based on their
                                            > innocence.
                                            > >
                                            > > > As you said, the misguided and unreliable nature of fallen man
                                            > is not
                                            > > > capable of achieving its own salvation. Praise G-d He did not do
                                            > that
                                            > > > but sent His only begotten Son to be our Redeemer. As far as any
                                            > other
                                            > > > religion goes, the first commandment answers your question
                                            on that
                                            > > > score. G-d will not overlook such a thing no matter how much
                                            > people want
                                            > > > to belive He will. Our G-d is the only known G-d. We know Him
                                            > through
                                            > > > His word, and historically He was also known by His interactions
                                            > with
                                            > > > His set-apart people.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Brought to you by Theologically Correct dot Com Ministries.
                                            > http://theologicallycorrect.com
                                            > 1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3 - Resources for Christian Living for the
                                            Whole Life
                                            > of the Believer
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
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