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Re: Hello and Babies

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  • Ron Cosby
    William, You say, ... in ... that! ... Stick to the issues and leave personal digs out of your posts, whether you wonder about me are not is not the issue. The
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 1, 1998
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      William,

      You say,
      >
      >The punishment for Adam's sin ("death") is defined plainly
      in
      > Genesis 3:19 -- which of course defines death as just
      that!
      >I'm beginning to wonder about you, Ron.
      >

      Stick to the issues and leave personal digs out of your
      posts, whether you wonder about me are not is not the issue.

      The *consequence* of Adam's sin is physical death.
      Consequences are not necessarily punishment. William, if
      physical death is punishment for sin, then the blood of
      Jesus did not pay it all. If physical death is punishment
      for sin, then God considers punishment of saints precious:

      Psal 116:15 Precious in the sight of Jehovah Is the death of
      his saints.


      Ron


      rlc@...
      Disney, OK
    • raec@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx)
      ... Hi, The way I believe is that the judgement of our sin natures is death. All of us, believer and unbeliever will die as judgement from the Fall/sin nature.
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 1, 1998
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        >>At 05:42 PM 11/28/98 , you wrote:
        >>From: "Chuck Warman" <cwarman@...>
        >>
        >>It seems apparent that babies have a sin nature at least from birth, if not
        >>from conception. Several verses already cited demonstrate this beyond
        >>doubt, IMO. (i.e., Psa 51:5, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the
        >>time my mother conceived me").
        >>
        >>My question is, is this sin nature *punished*? Or must the sin nature first
        >>be "confirmed ' by specific, conscious sins? I am tentatively opting for
        >>the softer position for the following reason: I cannot see how it would
        >>serve God's purposes to create people whose only conscious experience,
        >>through all eternity, will be suffering and separation. But I'm not ready
        >>to go to the wall for this view. . . yet!
        >>
        >>Again, my apologies to the list if this ground has already been plowed.
        >>
        >
        Hi,

        The way I believe is that the judgement of our sin natures is death. All of
        us, believer and unbeliever will die as judgement from the Fall/sin nature.
        Jesus's death was for the forgiveness of our sins, past/present/future, by
        faith we wrap His blood around us and thru Jesus we are as if we never
        sinned. Jesus's resurrection defeated death for us. We will all be
        resurrected, believers and unbelievers, and go somewhere. The question then
        is: where......

        So, if I put all that together in regards to babies/children, I believe if
        they die that is the judgement of their sin nature, it has been judged thru
        their death. Regarding grace thru Jesus, I think that is something we must
        leave into the just hands of God. Matt. 19:13-15, Jesus said don't forbid
        the children to come to Him. Does this only mean, don't keep them from
        church or learning about Him.... or is this bigger even than that.

        Some things I just don't think I'll ever know till I see Him face to face,
        and then when I do, whatever He has done will be so perfect to me that
        there won't be a question. My own personal belief is that the babies and
        children do go to the Lord when they die, but I don't know if there is any
        way for me to absolutely confirm that in the Word.

        There is also the "age of accountability", but I can't seem to find a
        reference for it in the Bible..... is it man-made thinking, or am I just
        not finding it in the Word?

        Something also I'v wondered is when babies/children die, and if they do as
        I believe go to the Lord, do their bodies stay babies/childrens size? If
        so, are they enabled to speak, walk, etc? LOL I do think of some funny
        things sometimes ;)

        God bless you,

        Rae

        Hi Louis, welcome to the list :)

        The road goes ever on and on........
        @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
        All my personal opinions are mine and mine alone ;)
      • Patrick Wardrop
        Ron, While physical death is certainly a result of sin, the punishment for sin was a loss of spiritual access to God, or spiritual death. That must be the
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 1, 1998
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          Ron,

          While physical death is certainly a result of sin, the punishment for sin
          was a loss of spiritual access to God, or spiritual death. That must be the
          case because why else would GO

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Ron Cosby [mailto:rlc@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 7:01 AM
          To: apologetics@onelist.com
          Subject: [apologetics] Re: Hello and Babies


          From: "Ron Cosby" <rlc@...>

          William,

          You say,
          >
          >The punishment for Adam's sin ("death") is defined plainly
          in
          > Genesis 3:19 -- which of course defines death as just
          that!
          >I'm beginning to wonder about you, Ron.
          >

          Stick to the issues and leave personal digs out of your
          posts, whether you wonder about me are not is not the issue.

          The *consequence* of Adam's sin is physical death.
          Consequences are not necessarily punishment. William, if
          physical death is punishment for sin, then the blood of
          Jesus did not pay it all. If physical death is punishment
          for sin, then God considers punishment of saints precious:

          Psal 116:15 Precious in the sight of Jehovah Is the death of
          his saints.


          Ron


          rlc@...
          Disney, OK


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          1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3
        • Chuck Dobbins
          I believe physical death is a result of sin, not necessarily a punishment for. Our sins are forgiven through the Blood of Jesus, but we still are
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 1, 1998
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            I believe physical death is a "result" of sin, not necessarily a punishment
            for. Our sins are forgiven through the Blood of Jesus, but we still are
            "accountable" for our actions here on earth. If you kill someone or lie, God
            will forgive you, but you are still held accountable "here" for that action.
            I like the old saying that "if you scratch the glass, you can be forgiven,
            but the glass will always still be scratched." Food for thought.

            In Christ
            Chuck
          • Patrick Wardrop
            Try again Ron, The premise that physical death was the punishment for sin doesn t match with Gods Word. While physical death resulted from sin, the punishment
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 1, 1998
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              Try again Ron,

              The premise that physical death was the punishment for sin doesn't match
              with Gods Word. While physical death resulted from sin, the punishment was
              separation from God. This can be seen by the fact that God presented man
              ways to restore a right relationship with Him. Your interpretation of Gen
              3.19 defines a symptom of sin as the punishment. Clearly the Bible teaches
              that the wages of sin is death, but it must be referring to final spiritual
              death/punishment (depending on your belief in "soul Sleep) otherwise the
              result of salvation would be eternal physical life. And we all know that
              doesn't happen.

              Pat

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Ron Cosby [mailto:rlc@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 7:01 AM
              To: apologetics@onelist.com
              Subject: [apologetics] Re: Hello and Babies


              From: "Ron Cosby" <rlc@...>

              William,

              You say,
              >
              >The punishment for Adam's sin ("death") is defined plainly
              in
              > Genesis 3:19 -- which of course defines death as just
              that!
              >I'm beginning to wonder about you, Ron.
              >

              Stick to the issues and leave personal digs out of your
              posts, whether you wonder about me are not is not the issue.

              The *consequence* of Adam's sin is physical death.
              Consequences are not necessarily punishment. William, if
              physical death is punishment for sin, then the blood of
              Jesus did not pay it all. If physical death is punishment
              for sin, then God considers punishment of saints precious:

              Psal 116:15 Precious in the sight of Jehovah Is the death of
              his saints.


              Ron


              rlc@...
              Disney, OK


              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
              to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
              select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Apologetics� is an outreach of W.I.T.N.E.S.S. Ministries.
              http://tidalwave.net/~blufunk195 or http://witness.base.org
              1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3
            • Ron Cosby
              Pat, I am at a loss concerning your last post. You seem to be ascribing to me William s viewpoint of physical death being the punishment for sin. If I
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 1, 1998
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                Pat,

                I am at a loss concerning your last post. You seem to be
                ascribing to me William's viewpoint of physical death being
                the punishment for sin. If I understand your post, I agree
                with you; or, in this case, since I put my foot in my mouth
                first, you agree with me. Have I missed something?
                Actually, I thought the following argument was excellent.
                You said,

                >
                >Clearly the Bible teaches
                >that the wages of sin is death, but it must be referring to
                final spiritual
                >death/punishment (depending on your belief in "soul Sleep)
                otherwise
                >the result of salvation would be eternal physical life.
                >


                Please let me know what I missed.

                Ron


                rlc@...
                Disney, OK
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Patrick Wardrop <pwardrop@...>
                To: apologetics@onelist.com <apologetics@onelist.com>
                Date: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 7:11 PM
                Subject: [apologetics] Re: Hello and Babies


                >From: "Patrick Wardrop" <pwardrop@...>
                >
                >Try again Ron,
                >
                >The premise that physical death was the punishment for sin
                doesn't match
                >with Gods Word. While physical death resulted from sin,
                the punishment was
                >separation from God. This can be seen by the fact that God
                presented man
                >ways to restore a right relationship with Him. Your
                interpretation of Gen
                >3.19 defines a symptom of sin as the punishment. Clearly
                the Bible teaches
                >that the wages of sin is death, but it must be referring to
                final spiritual
                >death/punishment (depending on your belief in "soul Sleep)
                otherwise the
                >result of salvation would be eternal physical life. And we
                all know that
                >doesn't happen.
                >
                >Pat
                >
                >-----Original Message-----
                >From: Ron Cosby [mailto:rlc@...]
                >Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 7:01 AM
                >To: apologetics@onelist.com
                >Subject: [apologetics] Re: Hello and Babies
                >
                >
                >From: "Ron Cosby" <rlc@...>
                >
                >William,
                >
                >You say,
                >>
                >>The punishment for Adam's sin ("death") is defined plainly
                >in
                >> Genesis 3:19 -- which of course defines death as just
                >that!
                >>I'm beginning to wonder about you, Ron.
                >>
                >
                >Stick to the issues and leave personal digs out of your
                >posts, whether you wonder about me are not is not the
                issue.
                >
                >The *consequence* of Adam's sin is physical death.
                >Consequences are not necessarily punishment. William, if
                >physical death is punishment for sin, then the blood of
                >Jesus did not pay it all. If physical death is punishment
                >for sin, then God considers punishment of saints precious:
                >
                >Psal 116:15 Precious in the sight of Jehovah Is the death
                of
                >his saints.
                >
                >
                >Ron
                >
                >
                >rlc@...
                >Disney, OK
                >
                >
                >-----------------------------------------------------------
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                subscription
                >to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at
                http://www.onelist.com and
                >select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
                >-----------------------------------------------------------
                -------------
                >Apologetics� is an outreach of W.I.T.N.E.S.S. Ministries.
                >http://tidalwave.net/~blufunk195 or http://witness.base.org
                >1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3
                >
                >
                >-----------------------------------------------------------
                -------------
                >To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your
                subscription
                >to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at
                http://www.onelist.com and
                >select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
                >-----------------------------------------------------------
                -------------
                >Apologetics� is an outreach of W.I.T.N.E.S.S. Ministries.
                >http://tidalwave.net/~blufunk195 or http://witness.base.org
                >1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3
                >
              • William Kilgore
                Pat/Ron, I actually agree with Ron concerning the fact that death is better described as the CONSEQUENCE of sin rather than punishment. I carelessly used
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 1, 1998
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                  Pat/Ron,

                  I actually agree with Ron concerning the fact that death is better
                  described as the CONSEQUENCE of sin rather than punishment. I
                  carelessly used "punishment." However, I thought that Ron was saying
                  that physical death had nothing to do with Adam's sin. I wasn't aware
                  that the point of contention was "consequence" vs. "punishment."

                  Yes, I agree that "you shall surely die" is far different from God
                  saying "I will kill you."

                  What I am disagreeing with is the idea of "spiritual death" expressed by
                  Pat. Death = death. God resurrects those who are unsaved for judgment,
                  then they die "the second death" (I am an annihilationist). The result
                  of salvation IS ultimately "eternal physical life" - in a new body on a
                  new earth in a new heavens. What Pat has set forth is more at home
                  among the platonists than in Scripture. Scripture treats us as
                  wholistic creations.

                  The fact it is real death (which affects us physically AND spiritually)
                  spoken of in Genesis 3 is shown by the definition God gives, as well as
                  the fact that God barred the way to the tree of life (access is granted
                  to the redeemed in Rev. 22).

                  William
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