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Re: multiple replies (DJC)

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  • Blue Skies White Stars
    -- PAUL -- Further, Kerry is not correct in saying the W & H text no longer -- exists. JW s still use it today. -- -- DJC -- I was under the impression
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 22, 1998
      --> PAUL
      --> Further, Kerry is not correct in saying the W & H text no longer
      --> exists. JW's still use it today.
      -->
      --> DJC
      --> I was under the impression that The JW's created their own version; I
      --> have never seen any evidence that they relied upon Westcott and Hort.

      Paul is correct here David. I just double checked the first page of my KIT
      (Kingdom Interlinear Translation) and that's the text the JW's are using.

      Paul got one right!! I stand corrected! :)

      Kerry
    • Blue Skies White Stars
      -- ============================= -- -- M.BELL -- There is no doubt that the underlying Greek text for the NWT and KIT is -- Westcott and Horts. -- --
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 22, 1998
        --> =============================
        -->
        --> M.BELL
        --> There is no doubt that the underlying Greek text for the NWT and KIT is
        --> Westcott and Horts.
        -->
        --> DJC
        --> Thank you very much, Matt for providing the information. I did not know

        --> that before.

        But if you also notice, they mistranslate it (just as they would with any
        greek text that didn't agree with their theology) so the matter is not of
        the text used, but of the theology being imposed upon it by it's users.

        Prior to 1952, the Jehovah's Witnesses supported their erroneous teachings
        using an ASV and a KJV.
        The United Pentecostal Church International and many modalistic groups
        support their false teachings (baptism in Jesus's name only,modalism ,
        necessity of tongues, works salvation) using a KJV.

        Kerry
      • Blue Skies White Stars
        -- PAUL -- Kerry, if you have a KIT, you have W & H s text. With Critical Notes. Plus, the KIT is dishonest with the interlinear translation underneath. I
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 22, 1998
          --> PAUL
          --> Kerry, if you have a KIT, you have W & H's text.

          With Critical Notes.
          Plus, the KIT is dishonest with the interlinear translation underneath. I
          find myself suspect of anything the JW's do or use. This KIT came into my
          possession a few years ago witnessing to a JW. I keep it for reference
          purposes.

          I could take time (later this month or next month) and do a greek text
          comparison of Scrivener's, the UBS 3rd (corrected) and the KIT's W & H, but
          I prefer the original of each. I'm also about to go pick up Hodges and
          Farastad's NT according to the Majority Text.

          Kerry
        • Paul Mansbacher
          ... PAUL GREEK TEXT: The Greek Text that we have used as the basis for the New World Translation is the widely accepted Wescott & Hort text (1881), by reason
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 22, 1998
            > > KERRY
            > > Again another false statement by Paul, since the so-called 'revised
            > > text' that Paul speaks of no longer exists. <snip>
            > >
            > > PAUL
            > > Here we have a profound confirmation that the W & H text is not the
            > Word of God - note that Kerry says. IT "NO LONGER EXISTS"!!! Now if it
            > was God's word, this could not be, as his Word abides forever!!!!
            > >
            > > DJC
            > > Paul, Paul, Paul. By your standing that means that when God allowed
            > Bible mss to be destroyed during the early persecutions then God lied
            > when He said His word abides forever--and yet I have 4 different
            > translations by me right now!
            >
            > PAUL
            > You are misunderstanding the issue. Kerry stated that the Revised Text
            > of Wescott and Hort no longer exists as a Text Form. That is the
            > changes whihc they made are no longer accepted by scholars. A
            > new text form is in existance. The old has passed away. But it
            > is the grass and the flower which withereth, not the Word of God.
            >
            > It is modern scholarship which makes God a liar. His Word does
            > not pass away. It is abiding. But man is tampering with it,
            > thus it no longer is the Word of God.
            >
            > Further, Kerry is not correct in saying the W & H text no longer
            > exists. JW's still use it today.
            >
            > DJC
            > I was under the impression that The JW's created their own version; I
            > have never seen any evidence that they relied upon Westcott and Hort.
            >
            PAUL

            'GREEK TEXT: The Greek Text that we have used as the basis for the
            New World Translation is the widely accepted Wescott & Hort text (1881),
            by reason of its acknowledged excellence. But we have also taken into
            consideration other texts, including those prepared by D. Eberhard
            Nestle, the Spanish Jesuit scholar Jose Maria Bover, and another
            Jesuit scholar, A Merck. The UBS text of 1875 and the Nestle-Aland
            text of 1979 were cinsukted to update the critical apparatus of this edition."
            The Foreward, The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures,
            1985, page 8

            "In the broad left-hand column of the pages will be found the Greek text
            edited by B F Westcott and F J a Hort, and published in 1881."
            By Way of Explanation, The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek
            Scriptures - 1985, page 5.
          • David Conklin
            From: Matthew Bell ... Text of Wescott and Hort no longer exists as a Text Form ... have never seen any evidence that they
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 22, 1998
              From: "Matthew Bell" <mbkbell@...>

              > PAUL
              > You are misunderstanding the issue. Kerry stated that the Revised
              Text of Wescott and Hort no longer exists as a Text Form
              <snip>>
              > Further, Kerry is not correct in saying the W & H text no longer
              > exists. JW's still use it today.
              >
              > DJC
              > I was under the impression that The JW's created their own version; I
              have never seen any evidence that they relied upon Westcott and Hort.

              M.BELL
              Consider the following the necessary evidence:

              From the Foreward of the NWT (1984)

              'From the start it was the desire of the translators to have all these
              volumes brought together into one book, inasmuch as the Holy Scriptures
              are in actuality in one book by the One Author. While the original
              volumes contained marginal references and footnotes, the revised
              one-volume edition contained neither footnotes, nor marginal references.
              A second revision was released in 1970 and a third revision with
              footnotes followed in 1971. In 1969 the committee released the Kingdom
              Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures,
              which presented under the Greek text revised by Westcott and Hort (1948
              reprint) a literal word for word translation into English'.

              From the KIT (1985):

              ======
              Inside leaf:
              'The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures
              ****Three Bible Texts******
              Greek Text above - The New Testament in the Original Greek, by B.F.
              Westcott and F.J.A.Hort - 1881.

              English Text underneath - An interlinear word-for-word translation into
              English(1969).

              English Text alongside - The NWT (1984 Revision).
              =====
              'BY WAY OF EXPLANATION
              In the broad left hand column of the pages will be found the Greek text
              edited by B.F.Westcott and F.J.A.Hort, and published in 1881.........'
              =============================

              M.BELL
              There is no doubt that the underlying Greek text for the NWT and KIT is
              Westcott and Horts.

              DJC
              Thank you very much, Matt for providing the information. I did not know
              that before.
            • David Conklin
              From: Paul Mansbacher ... what ... PAUL EK = out of and is found in the Received Text APO = away from and is found in the UBS Text.
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 22, 1998
                From: "Paul Mansbacher" <pmans@...>

                > > <snip>
                > >
                > > In verse 10, both have 'EK tou hudatos' against the RT, 'APO tou
                > > hudatos'
                > >
                > > DJC
                > > Okay Greek scholars what is the diff. between "ek" and "apo" and
                what
                > > major doctrine is significantly affected by the change?
                > >
                > PAUL
                > Baptism (the method of)! There is a significant difference between,
                > "OUT OF the water" (meaning that someone was IN the water) and
                > "AWAY FROM the water", (meaning that someone was BY the
                > water, but not IN it)!
                >
                > DJC
                > Now for the sake of clarity which is which is which and where do you
                > stand?
                >

                PAUL
                EK = 'out of' and is found in the Received Text
                APO = 'away from' and is found in the UBS Text.

                The Received Text teaches baptism by immersion, whereas
                the UBS Text can at best be said to be unclear, but would
                allow sprinkling.

                As I support the Received Text, I also support baptism by immersion.

                DJC
                The UBS 4th revised edition has "ek" as does the Nestle-Aland 26th
                edition.
              • Paul Mansbacher
                ... PAUL Kerry, if you have a KIT, you have W & H s text.
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 22, 1998
                  > --> PAUL
                  > --> Further, Kerry is not correct in saying the W & H text no longer
                  > --> exists. JW's still use it today.
                  > -->
                  > --> DJC
                  > --> I was under the impression that The JW's created their own version; I
                  > --> have never seen any evidence that they relied upon Westcott and Hort.
                  >
                  > Paul is correct here David. I just double checked the first page of my KIT
                  > (Kingdom Interlinear Translation) and that's the text the JW's are using.
                  >
                  > Paul got one right!! I stand corrected! :)

                  PAUL
                  Kerry, if you have a KIT, you have W & H's text.
                • William Kilgore
                  Kerry, How much does the NWT weigh in kilos? William
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 22, 1998
                    Kerry,

                    How much does the NWT weigh in kilos?

                    William
                  • Blue Skies White Stars
                    LOL- stop :) Kerry ... -- From: William Kilgore -- To: apologetics@onelist.com -- Subject: [apologetics] Re: multiple replies (DJC) --
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 23, 1998
                      LOL- stop :)
                      Kerry
                      ----------
                      --> From: William Kilgore <thinkman@...>
                      --> To: apologetics@onelist.com
                      --> Subject: [apologetics] Re: multiple replies (DJC)
                      --> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 23:56:00 -0600
                      -->
                      --> From: William Kilgore <thinkman@...>
                      -->
                      --> Kerry,
                      -->
                      --> How much does the NWT weigh in kilos?
                      -->
                      --> William
                      -->
                      -->
                      -->
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