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Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: EMERGENCY!!Potassium chloride softened water

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  • Darrell Maynard
    I was going to say that s very funny AL, but then I noticed it is the other Darrell ... From: Al Anderson To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday,
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 3, 2006
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      I was going to say that's very funny AL, but then I noticed it is the other Darrell
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 3:47 PM
      Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: EMERGENCY!!Potassium chloride softened water

      Something is wrong here I agree with Darrell on something.
      Al Anderson
      Breed your fish today before man's
      over population kill's the wild supply.
      augustand@sbcglobal .net
      317 253 2170
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 12:56 PM
      Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: EMERGENCY!!Potassiu m chloride softened water

      Okay, am I the only one who has noticed that everyone in this discussion who has actually used softened water says it has caused no problems, and that everyone who is saying that softened water is bad has apparently NOT used it long term? I also have used a commercial softener on water from a well that is the typical Midwest "liquid rock" (in the winter, over 2000ppm; it actually precipitates as it warms up). My fish have been fine on both, but some species did better in softened water than straight from the well. I also use various combinations of well, R/O, and rain water, depending on species. My softener is currently broken down and being bypassed, and I have have to cut the hardness, even for so-called hardwater species. When I can afford to replace it, I will.
       
      I asked Pat Hartman, who actually has a degree in chemistry and worked his entire career for a major drug company, if he had ever looked into this. He said yes, he had done an analysis, and that the amount of sodium added by water softeners is insignificant. Anyone else with a chemistry degree is welcome to dispute that claim.
       
      Darrell Ullisch
       
      ------------ -- Original message ------------ --
      From: Gerald Griffin <herpchat@yahoo. com>

      Then there is something in your well water that is quite nasty.
       
      I am on well water and my fish love it.  I love being able to just shoot water into the tank without treating it.

      Al Anderson <augustand@sbcglobal .net> wrote:
      I have lived in the house that I am now in for 25 years and all of my water here goes through the softener some of it goes into the ro unit for the fish . Some of the water I use is rain water. all of my fish seem to do ok on the softened water including the Africans.On true soft water fish I use rain water with good results.
      I have tried using the straight well water and it has killed everything that I have tried it on.
      Al Anderson
      Breed your fish today before man's
      over population kill's the wild supply.
      augustand@sbcglobal .net
      317 253 2170
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 9:59 PM
      Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: EMERGENCY!!Potassiu m chloride softened water

      Hi Larry (and all),
      snip-
      apistomaster <apistomaster@ excite.com> wrote:
      Hi Chris,
      The reason people use household water softeners is that in areas
      where the water is very hard it takes more detergent to wash clothes
      and the dissolved minerals leave scale deposits on fixtures and more
      streaking on dishes. It does not change the total dissolved solids in
      the water but in the ion exchange process what is left, sodium
      chloride, is much more water soluble than the calcium and magnesium
      it replaces.
      In otherwords good dish water but sucks as fish water. Anybody that
      is using the standard household water softeners for their fish don't
      understand their aquarium water chemistry.
      RO/DI is the only way to make good water out of bad water. People wo
      use a lot of additives are also wasting their money unless it is to
      remineralize their RO/DI water.
      -end snip
      This I have to slightly disagree with.  I don't have any real chemical reason, but my experience says that the water softener (at least in my area, I can't account for any other area) does help.  My experience:  My grandmother lives around the corner and has a two gallon tank that started with a pair of platys.  She has softened water.  I use her tap water for water changes, and now she has 8 platys in that 2 gallon tank.  Now I try to keep livebearers here at home, and I use my tap water.  Everything dies within 3 days.  Now, northern indiana is known to have liquid rock, but I can't keep julies in this water either.  And I'm starting to think it's the water, as I can keep other small africans just fine.  Julies I don't think are as durable (could be wrong here, NOT my area of expertise).  I think there must be something in my tap water that is harmful that the softener must remove.  This is the only logical rea soning I can come up with.  I have not tested my water for all sorts of chemicals, so I have no idea what is really in there and what is removed in the softener. 
      Anybody have any ideas?  Do softeners remove nitrates?  I have been told that there may be nitrates in my tap water, but I haven't tested it.  I may do that when I find time and my test kit...
      Thanks,
      Gary
       

      Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
       
       


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    • Charles & Sue Harrison
      Hum, Water chemist ? needed ? Stat analysis needed, sounds more logical. It has been my experience that people who have water they feel comfortable with
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 3, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: EMERGENCY!!Potassium chloride soft
        Hum,
        Water chemist  ? needed  ? Stat analysis needed, sounds more logical.

        It has been my experience that people who have water  they feel comfortable with tend to change more of their water more often and to that end they are often more successful with the species they wish to work with.

        Mother Nature has a way of maintaining things consistent  -  lots of fresh water from the rains or lots of reservoir in reserve to keep the lake water from degrading day to day or week to week. She just keeps it consistent

        Deionization, i.e., RO and ion exchange( Mixed bed deionizers) removes ALL the ions from the water. It becomes like rain water.

        Softened water has had all the ions EXCHANGED for (metal(Cations) ions) for Sodium or Potassium (which ever the choice is). all the non-metal ions (Anions i.e., Phosphate, Nitrates, Carbonates, Sulfates, etc. . . .) are exchanged for Chloride ions.

        Also 1 Calcium ion exchanges 2 Sodium ions, keeps the charges equal. For every Sulfate ion there needs to be 2 Chloride ions to balance the charges. Calcium Phosphate is insoluble - so not an issue. One needs to understand what a metal and what a non-metal is. Kinda like what's a "first down" and how does that differ from the 7th inning stretch. Each soluble iron ion may equal 2 or 3 Sodium ions, depends . . .  real chemistry can get a little complex . . .

        I have raised Aph. alberti N'tui in Ft Worth (it was bulanum N'tui back then) water at 2500 ppm salty hard water and done well with them here in St Louis. It depended on temperature more than water chemistry and live foods and . . . changing their water often. I know, one person, one species . . . . not much impact on the discussion  -  but

        the more water one changes the better off and more importantly the higher the likelihood of success with the fish


        The question about Sodium and/or Potassium in a regular intake of drinking water (fish don't swallow much water) in us people is better left to people like Hartman or better yet your personal physician.

        and that's 2¢ from a chemist

        Change as much water as often as you can . . .

        Charles Harrison



        At 5:56 PM +0000 12/3/06, Chromedome52@... wrote:
        Okay, am I the only one who has noticed that everyone in this discussion who has actually used softened water says it has caused no problems, and that everyone who is saying that softened water is bad has apparently NOT used it long term? I also have used a commercial softener on water from a well that is the typical Midwest "liquid rock" (in the winter, over 2000ppm; it actually precipitates as it warms up). My fish have been fine on both, but some species did better in softened water than straight from the well. I also use various combinations of well, R/O, and rain water, depending on species. My softener is currently broken down and being bypassed, and I have have to cut the hardness, even for so-called hardwater species. When I can afford to replace it, I will.
         
        I asked Pat Hartman, who actually has a degree in chemistry and worked his entire career for a major drug company, if he had ever looked into this. He said yes, he had done an analysis, and that the amount of sodium added by water softeners is insignificant. Anyone else with a chemistry degree is welcome to dispute that claim.
         
        Darrell Ullisch
         
        -------------- Original message --------------
        From: Gerald Griffin <herpchat@...>
        Then there is something in your well water that is quite nasty.
         
        I am on well water and my fish love it.  I love being able to just shoot water into the tank without treating it.

        Al Anderson <augustand@...> wrote:
        I have lived in the house that I am now in for 25 years and all of my water here goes through the softener some of it goes into the ro unit for the fish . Some of the water I use is rain water. all of my fish seem to do ok on the softened water including the Africans.On true soft water fish I use rain water with good results.
        I have tried using the straight well water and it has killed everything that I have tried it on.
        Al Anderson
        Breed your fish today before man's
        over population kill's the wild supply.
        augustand@...
        317 253 2170

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Gary Hoover
        To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 9:59 PM
        Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: EMERGENCY!!Potassium chloride softened water

        Hi Larry (and all),
        snip-
        apistomaster <apistomaster@... > wrote:
        Hi Chris,
        The reason people use household water softeners is that in areas where the water is very hard it takes more detergent to wash clothes and the dissolved minerals leave scale deposits on fixtures and more streaking on dishes. It does not change the total dissolved solids in the water but in the ion exchange process what is left, sodium chloride, is much more water soluble than the calcium and magnesium it replaces. In otherwords good dish water but sucks as fish water. Anybody that is using the standard household water softeners for their fish don't understand their aquarium water chemistry. RO/DI is the only way to make good water out of bad water. People wo use a lot of additives are also wasting their money unless it is to remineralize their RO/DI water.                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                     -end snip
        This I have to slightly disagree with.  I don't have any real chemical reason, but my experience says that the water softener (at least in my area, I can't account for any other area) does help.  My experience:  My grandmother lives around the corner and has a two gallon tank that started with a pair of platys.  She has softened water.  I use her tap water for water changes, and now she has 8 platys in that 2 gallon tank.  Now I try to keep livebearers here at home, and I use my tap water.  Everything dies within 3 days.  Now, northern indiana is known to have liquid rock, but I can't keep julies in this water either.  And I'm starting to think it's the water, as I can keep other small africans just fine.  Julies I don't think are as durable (could be wrong here, NOT my area of expertise).  I think there must be something in my tap water that is harmful that the softener must remove.  This is the only logical rea soning I can come up with.  I have not tested my water for all sorts of chemicals, so I have no idea what is really in there and what is removed in the softener.
        Anybody have any ideas?  Do softeners remove nitrates?  I have been told that there may be nitrates in my tap water, but I haven't tested it.  I may do that when I find time and my test kit...
        Thanks,
        Gary
         

        Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
         
         


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      • apistomaster@excite.com
        Hello Charles,Just to see if I understand you correctly, if you have a home water softener unit that is recharged in a brine solution then you have a cationic
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 4, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Charles,
          Just to see if I understand you correctly, if you have a home water softener unit that is recharged in a brine solution then you have a cationic exchange resin which exhanges the positively charged calcium and magnesium ions for sodium ions and that makes the water soft in the sense that detergents work better but the net balance is that the total disolved solids in the water remains the same. Fish like neon tetras come from water with almost no disolved solids so a simple run through the cationic exchange resin is no help in reducing the tapwater into anything like rain water. A carbon+ mixed bed of cationic and anionic exchage resins can produce pure water and a RO unit removes about 90% of the total disolved solids after passing through a block of activated carbon,and then a molecular sieve(membrane). The remaining 10% is further removed by a final stage mixed bed cationic/anionic exchange resins resulting in pure water.
          As long as the water meets EPA standards for potable water, most fish live in it just fine. Our water changes dilute metabolic wastes produced by all biologicals living in closed water systems preventing the development of high concentrations of waste products. Some fish are more demanding, particularly for breeding and egg hatching, and may require water closer to true purity but with fine tuning of electrolyte balance and pH if the fishes' biology requires this level of purity. A household water softer does not take you closer to this goal . Do you think that I am understanding the important aspects of aquarium water quality correctly? I keep and breed only soft water tropical fish.
          Thank you for your great explaination of the chemistry of water.
          Larry Waybright






          --- On Sun 12/03, Charles & Sue Harrison < csharrison@... > wrote:

          From: Charles & Sue Harrison [mailto: csharrison@...]
          To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: Chromedome52@...
          Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:44:56 -0600
          Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: EMERGENCY!!Potassium chloride softened water

          Hum,
          Water chemist ? needed ? Stat analysis needed, sounds more logical.


          It has been my experience that people who have water they feel comfortable with tend to change more of their water more often and to that end they are often more successful with the species they wish to work with.


          Mother Nature has a way of maintaining things consistent - lots of fresh water from the rains or lots of reservoir in reserve to keep the lake water from degrading day to day or week to week. She just keeps it consistent


          Deionization, i.e., RO and ion exchange( Mixed bed deionizers) removes ALL the ions from the water. It becomes like rain water.


          Softened water has had all the ions EXCHANGED for (metal(Cations) ions) for Sodium or Potassium (which ever the choice is). all the non-metal ions (Anions i.e., Phosphate, Nitrates, Carbonates, Sulfates, etc. . . .) are exchanged for Chloride ions.


          Also 1 Calcium ion exchanges 2 Sodium ions, keeps the charges equal. For every Sulfate ion there needs to be 2 Chloride ions to balance the charges. Calcium Phosphate is insoluble - so not an issue. One needs to understand what a metal and what a non-metal is. Kinda like what's a "first down" and how does that differ from the 7th inning stretch. Each soluble iron ion may equal 2 or 3 Sodium ions, depends . . . real chemistry can get a little complex . . .


          I have raised Aph. alberti N'tui in Ft Worth (it was bulanum N'tui back then) water at 2500 ppm salty hard water and done well with them here in St Louis. It depended on temperature more than water chemistry and live foods and . . . changing their water often. I know, one person, one species . . . . not much impact on the discussion - but


          the more water one changes the better off and more importantly the higher the likelihood of success with the fish




          The question about Sodium and/or Potassium in a regular intake of drinking water (fish don't swallow much water) in us people is better left to people like Hartman or better yet your personal physician.


          and that's 2� from a chemist


          Change as much water as often as you can . . .


          Charles Harrison






          At 5:56 PM +0000 12/3/06, Chromedome52@ comcast.net wrote:

          Okay, am I the only one who has noticed that everyone in this discussion who has actually used softened water says it has caused no problems, and that everyone who is saying that softened water is bad has apparently NOT used it long term? I also have used a commercial softener on water from a well that is the typical Midwest "liquid rock" (in the winter, over 2000ppm; it actually precipitates as it warms up). My fish have been fine on both, but some species did better in softened water than straight from the well. I also use various combinations of well, R/O, and rain water, depending on species. My softener is currently broken down and being bypassed, and I have have to cut the hardness, even for so-called hardwater species. When I can afford to replace it, I will.
          I asked Pat Hartman, who actually has a degree in chemistry and worked his entire career for a major drug company, if he had ever looked into this. He said yes, he had done an analysis, and that the amount of sodium added by water softeners is insignificant. Anyone else with a chemistry degree is welcome to dispute that claim.
          Darrell Ullisch

          ------------ -- Original message ------------ --
          From: Gerald Griffin com>
          Then there is something in your well water that is quite nasty.
          I am on well water and my fish love it. I love being able to just shoot water into the tank without treating it.

          Al Anderson .net> wrote:
          I have lived in the house that I am now in for 25 years and all of my water here goes through the softener some of it goes into the ro unit for the fish . Some of the water I use is rain water. all of my fish seem to do ok on the softened water including the Africans.On true soft water fish I use rain water with good results.
          I have tried using the straight well water and it has killed everything that I have tried it on.
          Al Anderson
          Breed your fish today before man's
          over population kill's the wild supply.
          augustand@sbcglobal .net
          317 253 2170

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Gary Hoover
          To: anubiasdesign@ yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 9:59 PM
          Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: EMERGENCY!!Potassiu m chloride softened water

          Hi Larry (and all),
          snip-
          apistomaster <apistomaster@ excite.com> wrote:
          Hi Chris,
          The reason people use household water softeners is that in areas where the water is very hard it takes more detergent to wash clothes and the dissolved minerals leave scale deposits on fixtures and more streaking on dishes. It does not change the total dissolved solids in the water but in the ion exchange process what is left, sodium chloride, is much more water soluble than the calcium and magnesium it replaces. In otherwords good dish water but sucks as fish water. Anybody that is using the standard household water softeners for their fish don't understand their aquarium water chemistry. RO/DI is the only way to make good water out of bad water. People wo use a lot of additives are also wasting their money unless it is to remineralize their RO/DI water.
          -end snip
          This I have to slightly disagree with. I don't have any real chemical reason, but my experience says that the water softener (at least in my area, I can't account for any other area) does help. My experience: My grandmother lives around the corner and has a two gallon tank that started with a pair of platys. She has softened water. I use her tap water for water changes, and now she has 8 platys in that 2 gallon tank. Now I try to keep livebearers here at home, and I use my tap water. Everything dies within 3 days. Now, northern indiana is known to have liquid rock, but I can't keep julies in this water either. And I'm starting to think it's the water, as I can keep other small africans just fine. Julies I don't think are as durable (could be wrong here, NOT my area of expertise). I think there must be something in my tap water that is harmful that the softener must remove. This is the only logical rea soning I can come up with. I have not tested my water for all sorts of chemicals, so I have no idea what is really in there and what is removed in the softener.
          Anybody have any ideas? Do softeners remove nitrates? I have been told that there may be nitrates in my tap water, but I haven't tested it. I may do that when I find time and my test kit...
          Thanks,
          Gary

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        • Gerald
          Hi Larry, The total ionic CHARGE remains the same before vs after softening, but NOT the Total Dissolved Solids or Conductivity - those will usually increase,
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 4, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Larry, The total ionic CHARGE remains the same before vs after
            softening, but NOT the Total Dissolved Solids or Conductivity -
            those will usually increase, cuz youre adding two Na+ to replace one
            Ca++ or Mg++. A softener can still help softwater fish, even though
            its not reducing T.D.S. or conductivity, because some of the
            physiological problems that "obligate" soft water species have in
            hard water is due to excess Ca++ (can cause calcification in the
            kidneys, reprod organs, etc). Most soft water fish can tolerate
            higher levels of Na+ and Cl- better than they tolerate the "hard"
            ions Ca++ and Mg++. And yes, too much Na+ without a reasonable
            balance of the other important + ions (cations) spells trouble.
            gerald

            --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, "apistomaster@..."
            <apistomaster@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Charles,Just to see if I understand you correctly, if you
            have a home water softener unit that is recharged in a brine
            solution then you have a cationic exchange resin which exhanges the
            positively charged calcium and magnesium ions for sodium ions and
            that makes the water soft in the sense that detergents work better
            but the net balance is that the total disolved solids in the water
            remains the same. Fish like neon tetras come from water with almost
            no disolved solids so a simple run through the cationic exchange
            resin is no help in reducing the tapwater into anything like rain
            water. A carbon+ mixed bed of cationic and anionic exchage resins
            can produce pure water and a RO unit removes about 90% of the total
            disolved solids after passing through a block of activated
            carbon,and then a molecular sieve(membrane). The remaining 10% is
            further removed by a final stage mixed bed cationic/anionic exchange
            resins resulting in pure water. As long as the water meets EPA
            > standards for potable water, most fish live in it just fine. Our
            water changes dilute metabolic wastes produced by all biologicals
            living in closed water systems preventing the development of high
            concentrations of waste products. Some fish are more demanding,
            particularly for breeding and egg hatching, and may require water
            closer to true purity but with fine tuning of electrolyte balance
            and pH if the fishes' biology requires this level of purity. A
            household water softer does not take you closer to this goal . Do
            you think that I am understanding the important aspects of aquarium
            water quality correctly? I keep and breed only soft water tropical
            fish.Thank you for your great explaination of the chemistry of
            water.Larry Waybright--- On Sun 12/03, Charles & Sue Harrison
            < csharrison@... > wrote:From: Charles & Sue Harrison
            [mailto: csharrison@...]To: anubiasdesign@...: Chromedome52@...:
            Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:44:56
            > -0600Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: EMERGENCY!!Potassium
            chloride softened water
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hum,Water chemist ? needed ? Stat analysis needed, sounds more
            logical.It has been my experience that people who have water they
            feel comfortable with tend to change more of their water more often
            and to that end they are often more successful with the species they
            wish to work with.Mother Nature has a way of maintaining things
            consistent - lots of fresh water from the rains or lots of
            reservoir in reserve to keep the lake water from degrading day to
            day or week to week. She just keeps it consistentDeionization, i.e.,
            RO and ion exchange( Mixed bed deionizers) removes ALL the ions from
            the water. It becomes like rain water.Softened water has had all the
            ions EXCHANGED for (metal(Cations) ions) for Sodium or Potassium
            (which ever the choice is). all the non-metal ions (Anions i.e.,
            Phosphate, Nitrates, Carbonates, Sulfates, etc. . . .) are exchanged
            for Chloride ions.Also 1 Calcium ion exchanges 2 Sodium ions, keeps
            the charges equal. For every Sulfate ion there needs to
            > be 2 Chloride ions to balance the charges. Calcium Phosphate is
            insoluble - so not an issue. One needs to understand what a metal
            and what a non-metal is. Kinda like what's a "first down" and how
            does that differ from the 7th inning stretch. Each soluble iron ion
            may equal 2 or 3 Sodium ions, depends . . . real chemistry can get
            a little complex . . .I have raised Aph. alberti N'tui in Ft Worth
            (it was bulanum N'tui back then) water at 2500 ppm salty hard water
            and done well with them here in St Louis. It depended on temperature
            more than water chemistry and live foods and . . . changing their
            water often. I know, one person, one species . . . . not much impact
            on the discussion - butthe more water one changes the better off
            and more importantly the higher the likelihood of success with the
            fishThe question about Sodium and/or Potassium in a regular intake
            of drinking water (fish don't swallow much water) in us people is
            better left to people like Hartman or better yet
            > your personal physician.and that's 2¢ from a chemistChange as much
            water as often as you can . . .Charles HarrisonAt 5:56 PM +0000
            12/3/06, Chromedome52@... wrote:Okay, am I the only one who has
            noticed that everyone in this discussion who has actually used
            softened water says it has caused no problems, and that everyone who
            is saying that softened water is bad has apparently NOT used it long
            term? I also have used a commercial softener on water from a well
            that is the typical Midwest "liquid rock" (in the winter, over
            2000ppm; it actually precipitates as it warms up). My fish have been
            fine on both, but some species did better in softened water than
            straight from the well. I also use various combinations of well,
            R/O, and rain water, depending on species. My softener is currently
            broken down and being bypassed, and I have have to cut the hardness,
            even for so-called hardwater species. When I can afford to replace
            it, I will.
            >
            > I asked Pat Hartman, who actually has a degree in chemistry and
            worked his entire career for a major drug company, if he had ever
            looked into this. He said yes, he had done an analysis, and that the
            amount of sodium added by water softeners is insignificant. Anyone
            else with a chemistry degree is welcome to dispute that claim.
            >
            > Darrell Ullisch
            >
            > -------------- Original message --------------From: Gerald Griffin
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          • apistomaster@excite.com
            Gerald,Thank you for helping to clarify mu understanding. As we bean to this subject some of what I learned in my college chemistry is coming back. I did get
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 4, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Gerald,
              Thank you for helping to clarify mu understanding. As we bean to this subject some of what I learned in my college chemistry is coming back. I did get an A in that one so I half way get it. I had also forgotten about the negative effect have on the kidneys from excess calcium and magnesium and that to keep the equations balanced it takes equal opposite charges which in some cases is a two ions for one exchange or more depending on the ions involved.
              For the more technical species the simplest solution is to use RO/DI produced water adjusted to taste, as it were. It is the TDS that effects the eggs most dependent on extremely low external osmotic differentials. Correct pH being a given.
              Larry





              --- On Mon 12/04, Gerald < gbpottern@... > wrote:

              From: Gerald [mailto: gbpottern@...]
              To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 16:55:41 -0000
              Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: EMERGENCY!!Potassium chloride softened water

              Hi Larry, The total ionic CHARGE remains the same before vs after
              softening, but NOT the Total Dissolved Solids or Conductivity -
              those will usually increase, cuz youre adding two Na+ to replace one
              Ca++ or Mg++. A softener can still help softwater fish, even though
              its not reducing T.D.S. or conductivity, because some of the
              physiological problems that "obligate" soft water species have in
              hard water is due to excess Ca++ (can cause calcification in the
              kidneys, reprod organs, etc). Most soft water fish can tolerate
              higher levels of Na+ and Cl- better than they tolerate the "hard"
              ions Ca++ and Mg++. And yes, too much Na+ without a reasonable
              balance of the other important + ions (cations) spells trouble.
              gerald

              --- In anubiasdesign@ yahoogroups. com, "apistomaster@ ..."
              ...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Charles,Just to see if I understand you correctly, if you
              have a home water softener unit that is recharged in a brine
              solution then you have a cationic exchange resin which exhanges the
              positively charged calcium and magnesium ions for sodium ions and
              that makes the water soft in the sense that detergents work better
              but the net balance is that the total disolved solids in the water
              remains the same. Fish like neon tetras come from water with almost
              no disolved solids so a simple run through the cationic exchange
              resin is no help in reducing the tapwater into anything like rain
              water. A carbon+ mixed bed of cationic and anionic exchage resins
              can produce pure water and a RO unit removes about 90% of the total
              disolved solids after passing through a block of activated
              carbon,and then a molecular sieve(membrane) . The remaining 10% is
              further removed by a final stage mixed bed cationic/anionic exchange
              resins resulting in pure water. As long as the water meets EPA
              > standards for potable water, most fish live in it just fine. Our
              water changes dilute metabolic wastes produced by all biologicals
              living in closed water systems preventing the development of high
              concentrations of waste products. Some fish are more demanding,
              particularly for breeding and egg hatching, and may require water
              closer to true purity but with fine tuning of electrolyte balance
              and pH if the fishes' biology requires this level of purity. A
              household water softer does not take you closer to this goal . Do
              you think that I am understanding the important aspects of aquarium
              water quality correctly? I keep and breed only soft water tropical
              fish.Thank you for your great explaination of the chemistry of
              water.Larry Waybright--- On Sun 12/03, Charles &amp; Sue Harrison
              &lt; csharrison@. .. &gt; wrote:From: Charles &amp; Sue Harrison
              [mailto: csharrison@. ..]To: anubiasdesign@ ...: Chromedome52@ ...:
              Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:44:56
              > -0600Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: EMERGENCY!!Potassiu m
              chloride softened water
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hum,Water chemist ? needed ? Stat analysis needed, sounds more
              logical.It has been my experience that people who have water they
              feel comfortable with tend to change more of their water more often
              and to that end they are often more successful with the species they
              wish to work with.Mother Nature has a way of maintaining things
              consistent - lots of fresh water from the rains or lots of
              reservoir in reserve to keep the lake water from degrading day to
              day or week to week. She just keeps it consistentDeionizat ion, i.e.,
              RO and ion exchange( Mixed bed deionizers) removes ALL the ions from
              the water. It becomes like rain water.Softened water has had all the
              ions EXCHANGED for (metal(Cations) ions) for Sodium or Potassium
              (which ever the choice is). all the non-metal ions (Anions i.e.,
              Phosphate, Nitrates, Carbonates, Sulfates, etc. . . .) are exchanged
              for Chloride ions.Also 1 Calcium ion exchanges 2 Sodium ions, keeps
              the charges equal. For every Sulfate ion there needs to
              > be 2 Chloride ions to balance the charges. Calcium Phosphate is
              insoluble - so not an issue. One needs to understand what a metal
              and what a non-metal is. Kinda like what's a "first down" and how
              does that differ from the 7th inning stretch. Each soluble iron ion
              may equal 2 or 3 Sodium ions, depends . . . real chemistry can get
              a little complex . . .I have raised Aph. alberti N'tui in Ft Worth
              (it was bulanum N'tui back then) water at 2500 ppm salty hard water
              and done well with them here in St Louis. It depended on temperature
              more than water chemistry and live foods and . . . changing their
              water often. I know, one person, one species . . . . not much impact
              on the discussion - butthe more water one changes the better off
              and more importantly the higher the likelihood of success with the
              fishThe question about Sodium and/or Potassium in a regular intake
              of drinking water (fish don't swallow much water) in us people is
              better left to people like Hartman or better yet
              > your personal physician.and that's 2� from a chemistChange as much
              water as often as you can . . .Charles HarrisonAt 5:56 PM +0000
              12/3/06, Chromedome52@ ... wrote:Okay, am I the only one who has
              noticed that everyone in this discussion who has actually used
              softened water says it has caused no problems, and that everyone who
              is saying that softened water is bad has apparently NOT used it long
              term? I also have used a commercial softener on water from a well
              that is the typical Midwest "liquid rock" (in the winter, over
              2000ppm; it actually precipitates as it warms up). My fish have been
              fine on both, but some species did better in softened water than
              straight from the well. I also use various combinations of well,
              R/O, and rain water, depending on species. My softener is currently
              broken down and being bypassed, and I have have to cut the hardness,
              even for so-called hardwater species. When I can afford to replace
              it, I will.
              >
              > I asked Pat Hartman, who actually has a degree in chemistry and
              worked his entire career for a major drug company, if he had ever
              looked into this. He said yes, he had done an analysis, and that the
              amount of sodium added by water softeners is insignificant. Anyone
              else with a chemistry degree is welcome to dispute that claim.
              >
              > Darrell Ullisch
              >
              > ------------ -- Original message ------------ --From: Gerald Griffin
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            • apistomaster
              -Hi Charle, Darrel and all, I thank you for the clarifications and it has been a crash refresher chemistry review that helped reawaken my college chem lessons.
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 4, 2006
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                -Hi Charle, Darrel and all,
                I thank you for the clarifications and it has been a crash refresher
                chemistry review that helped reawaken my college chem lessons.
                I can really appreciate the analogy between aquariums and sewer
                treatment. I worked for six years in the Engineering Services
                division of Technical Services for the agency that was responsible
                for treating all the wastewater of King County, WA (Seattle area) so
                I have more than a passing familiarity with the processes. The water
                quality lab was the ultimate resource for some issues that would
                arise through my informal contacts with the lab people. I also look
                at aquariums as a glorified cess pools or water treatment facilities
                and "modern" filters as reduced scale waste treatment plants. The oft
                heard expression in the "business", "The solution to pollution is
                dilution." really sums up what we are doing when we maintain
                aquariums in as healthy condition as allowed by chemistry and
                technology. Even the use of growing aquarium plants is derivative of
                waste water treatment I find it useful to keep all this in mind.
                I think it makes me a better aquarist by looking at aquaristics
                in this light.
                Larry Waybright

                -- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, "apistomaster@..."
                <apistomaster@...> wrote:
                >
                > Gerald,Thank you for helping to clarify mu understanding. As we
                bean to this subject some of what I learned in my college chemistry
                is coming back. I did get an A in that one so I half way get it. I
                had also forgotten about the negative effect have on the kidneys from
                excess calcium and magnesium and that to keep the equations balanced
                it takes equal opposite charges which in some cases is a two ions for
                one exchange or more depending on the ions involved.For the more
                technical species the simplest solution is to use RO/DI produced
                water adjusted to taste, as it were. It is the TDS that effects the
                eggs most dependent on extremely low external osmotic differentials.
                Correct pH being a given.Larry--- On Mon 12/04, Gerald <
                gbpottern@... > wrote:From: Gerald [mailto: gbpottern@...]To:
                anubiasdesign@...: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 16:55:41 -0000Subject:
                [anubiasdesign] Re: EMERGENCY!!Potassium chloride softened water
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi Larry, The total ionic CHARGE remains the same before vs after
                softening, but NOT the Total Dissolved Solids or Conductivity - those
                will usually increase, cuz youre adding two Na+ to replace one Ca++
                or Mg++. A softener can still help softwater fish, even though its
                not reducing T.D.S. or conductivity, because some of the
                physiological problems that "obligate" soft water species have in
                hard water is due to excess Ca++ (can cause calcification in the
                kidneys, reprod organs, etc). Most soft water fish can tolerate
                higher levels of Na+ and Cl- better than they tolerate the "hard"
                ions Ca++ and Mg++. And yes, too much Na+ without a reasonable
                balance of the other important + ions (cations) spells trouble.
                gerald--- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, "apistomaster@"
                > Messages in this topic (19) Reply (via web post) | Start a new
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              • Charles & Sue Harrison
                ... it s doubly positively charged Ca and Mg ions and singly charged Sodium ions one gets 2 Na for each Ca++ and - well, yes, remember the opposite of Hard
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 4, 2006
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                  >Just to see if I understand you correctly, if you have a home water
                  >softener unit that is recharged in a brine solution then you have a
                  >cationic exchange resin which exhanges the positively charged
                  >calcium and magnesium ions for sodium ions and that makes the water
                  >soft in the sense that detergents work better but the net balance is
                  >that the total disolved solids in the water remains the same.


                  it's doubly positively charged Ca and Mg ions and singly charged
                  Sodium ions one gets 2 Na for each Ca++


                  and - well, yes, remember the opposite of >Hard water< is >
                  Easy water< not really SOFT! Just how the word "Soft" got into the
                  water picture is still a mystery to me

                  and too

                  KH is a conjecture, not an analytical chemistry world expression. KH
                  implies a combination of 3 ions and has nothing with Easy or Hardness
                  either. We still use Washing Soda (Sodium Carbonate) in many of the
                  popular detergents.

                  Most if not all of the "soft" water fishes respond to maintaining
                  freshness of the tank water, be it moderate, 150-300 ppm Ca++ ,
                  hardness, as well as temperature and live foods. The big deal seems
                  to be if one removes the "KH" and drives the pH down, there is no
                  buffering power left in the water and a pH drop to below 4 produces
                  free Nitrous acid which melts the gills of most fishes. This requires
                  more water changes to maintain consistency in small 20 gallon or less
                  aquariums.

                  If one like Al has the water to do it then that is great. But if one
                  gets sick, out of town or otherwise incapacitated for a week or more,
                  most of the fish wind up as fuzz balls in the bottom of the acid
                  tanks.

                  The chemistry gets complicated when we throw in the Tannic acids and
                  Humus, the Organic acids and Nitrogen containing compounds together
                  with the Ca and Mg and Fe ions along with Carbonates, Bicarbonates
                  and Hydroxides.

                  The important thing is to keep on doing as many water changes as you
                  can and keep the % of the changes as high as you can. Consistency to
                  the fish - flush the toilet as often as you can. Remember your
                  aquarium is really a septic tank.


                  Charles Harrison

                  Fish like neon tetras come from water with almost no disolved solids so a si
                  --
                  Charles & Sue Harrison
                  http://www.InkForYourPrinter.com
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                • Charles & Sue Harrison
                  I guess I really need to respond to Lee s first posting. Hello Lee, I am looking at a container of MORTON s Salt Substitute for a salt free diet. it is
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 4, 2006
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                    I guess I really need to respond to Lee's first posting.
                    Hello Lee,
                    I am looking at a container of MORTON's Salt
                    Substitute for a salt free diet. it is Potassium
                    Chloride and a little bit of fluffing agents to
                    keep it flowing. Of course it does have "consult
                    a physician before using any salt substitute." on
                    the label, but I am free without any restriction
                    to eat or sprinkle as much of this stuff on my
                    food as I may like. At the same time I know that
                    a KCl solution can be injected and kill the
                    receiver. - I think I saw it on CSI - anyway,
                    it is true.

                    KCl is available in St Louis as well as CA for
                    water softeners - Lowes, Sears, Home Depot,
                    etc. . . .
                    There must be a health risk here somewhere but I
                    think your numbers are high. Guess I need to look
                    around but to tell the truth there has been a
                    question in the back of my thoughts of water
                    softeners and Potassium rather than Sodium. More
                    looking and comparison is necessary. AOBTW -
                    how are the avichang doing??

                    Charles Harrison

                    At 9:47 AM -0600 12/2/06, Beth Van Hyfte wrote:
                    >I do not think the implications of Potassium in water softeners was
                    >emphasized enough so here it goes.
                    >
                    >This could potentially KILL PEOPLE!!!!!!
                    >
                    >Most people understand that they are not supposed to drink softened water
                    >BUT. For those that do not. This could be seriously harmful!! Especially
                    >to anyone in renal failure. Not to mention any thousands of people with
                    >heart problems. Diabetics (juvenile onset) if they enter Ketoacidosis.
                    >
                    >NaCl will dissolve up to 1/2 tsp of salt per gallon in hard water areas. If
                    >that will occur in KCl that is dangerous.
                    >
                    >A little potassium is a good thing a lot can stop your heart and your entire
                    >nervous system!!
                    >
                    >In any cell a natural balance occurs between K and Na. A disruption in the
                    >balance will cause osmotic differentials that will end the cells life.
                    >Internal to the cell is about 25: 1 potassium ions to sodium. External to
                    >the cell should be about 1:25
                    >
                    >So essentially in hard water areas. You would need about 12.5 tsp/gal of
                    >NaCL to correct the issue. That is a tad problematic.
                    >
                    >Potassium is good for plants however in the form of KCl it is not. The
                    >chlorides involved in that high of dosing will be very dangerous to even the
                    >plants let alone your fragile fish!! Usually Potassium used in plant
                    >fertilizers comes in the form of Potassium phosphate (potash), Potassium
                    >Nitrate (Guano), Potassium Chloride, Potassium Iodide, Maybe in small
                    >quanities potassium permanganate as that also brings in manganese.
                    >
                    >I'd be getting me an R.O. unit in a hurry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                    >
                    >DON"T DRINK THE WATER from a California water softener. VERY BAD!!!
                    >
                    >God Bless, Lee Van Hyfte RN <><


                    --
                    }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{
                    Change as much water as often as you can!
                    Charles Harrison in St Louis
                    http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/
                    }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>
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