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Lowering pH in a Holding Tank

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  • rdebon55
    I use New York City Municipal tap water that is normally at pH 7.0 to 7.2. I would like to start a Holding Tank of aged tap water at a pH of 6.0 to 6.5 that I
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 12, 2013
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      I use New York City Municipal tap water that is normally at pH 7.0 to 7.2.  I would like to start a Holding Tank of aged tap water at a pH of 6.0 to 6.5 that I can use for my fish that prefer acidic water. I plan to do my water changes directly from this Holding Tank. A number of Killie breeders use this method and they told me to use White Vinegar or Lemon Juice to lower the pH in the Holding Tank. They said to test the pH in the water first and then to begin adding small amounts of either White Vinegar or Lemon Juice to the Holding Tank every few hours until I reach the desired pH.

      My question is has anyone ever heard of this method and does anyone have any experience using it to lower pH?  Does the Vinegar or Lemon Juice have any noticeable effect on the other aspects of the water chemistry, like Hardness? Also, once the water in the Holding Tank reaches the desired pH does it have to be Buffered to prevent the pH from rising?
    • exasperatus2002
      Great question. I ve never heard of this method before. I used to use a deionizer and then add stuff to the treat water years ago. But I just received my first
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 12, 2013
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        Great question. I've never heard of this method before. I used to use a deionizer and then add stuff to the treat water years ago. But I just received my first batch of killi eggs (nothobranchius guentheri) that have a few months of rest to do before I have to hatch them. I'd like to try some of the other killies to once I do well with these.

        --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, "rdebon55" <rdebon@...> wrote:
        >
        > I use New York City Municipal tap water that is normally at pH 7.0 to
        > 7.2. I would like to start a Holding Tank of aged tap water at a pH of
        > 6.0 to 6.5 that I can use for my fish that prefer acidic water. I plan
        > to do my water changes directly from this Holding Tank. A number of
        > Killie breeders use this method and they told me to use White Vinegar or
        > Lemon Juice to lower the pH in the Holding Tank. They said to test the
        > pH in the water first and then to begin adding small amounts of either
        > White Vinegar or Lemon Juice to the Holding Tank every few hours until I
        > reach the desired pH.
        >
        > My question is has anyone ever heard of this method and does anyone have
        > any experience using it to lower pH? Does the Vinegar or Lemon Juice
        > have any noticeable effect on the other aspects of the water chemistry,
        > like Hardness? Also, once the water in the Holding Tank reaches the
        > desired pH does it have to be Buffered to prevent the pH from rising?
        >
      • lharper392000
        Most killifish do not need acidic water. Some prefer soft water which may become acidic with time if it remains soft. Wild angel fish sometimes require soft
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 12, 2013
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               Most killifish do not need acidic water. Some prefer soft water which may become acidic with time if it remains soft. Wild angel fish sometimes require soft and acid water. Most killies that need soft water do not care what the pH is. Keeping Nothobranchius species does not require nor is it advisable to use soft acid water. The bottom line is that hardness and total dissolved solids, which affect osmotic pressure and other colligative prepares, are much more important than pH. The pH in a natural body of water varies considerably day to night and the fish do not care. They do care about sudden change in osmotic pressure. It can rupture the gills.
          Keeping a tank at low pH requires the absence of buffering minerals. Therefore it is rare that a hard acidic condition can be maintained. A soft water like rain water will be low in pH usually. If the water is very pure, measurement of pH is difficult and meaningless. Diapterons and some South American annuals require softer water. I use half and half rain or RO water with tap water (200 PPM TDS) to achieve softer water for them. The only situation where pH is very important is when the pH drops to very low (below 5) values because of lack of water changes. Whether it is the low pH or the combined accumulation of waste products is debatable.
               A practical method of making soft acid water is to filter it through peat moss. Depending on the hardness of the water you start with, it may take a while. Keeping soft water acidic also requires the absence of any rocks or gravel that may affect the pH.

          Lee Harper
          Media, PA

        • Robert DeBonis
          Lee, Thank you for the information. I m not questioning whether or not Killiefish or any other species for that matter need low pH and I agree with you about
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 12, 2013
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            Lee,
             
            Thank you for the information. I'm not questioning whether or not Killiefish or any other species for that matter need low pH and I agree with you about pH fluctuation in natural bodies of water, however I may have misled people in my Post. I omitted in my original Post that I raise mostly Anabantids, from Asia and Africa, including wild Betta's. The information I received on using Vinegar and Lemon juice to reduce pH in a Holding Tank came from Killie Breeders I know, I currently do not raise Killiefish. Filtering the water through Peat Moss is a technique I use for many of the species I have, since all my tanks have Peat in their Box Filters and I use a lot of leaf litter in my tanks. My pH runs depending on the individual tank between 5.0 to 7.0. I find that Low pH does matter for some wild caught Betta species especially if they are newly caught and have not acclimated to higher pH levels. I currently maintain the water quality in 22 tanks manually. If I ever want to increase the number of tanks, what I need is to get a water source that will give me lower pH (6.0 to 6.5) water on demand, and the easiest method available to me at this time is a large holding tank that I can use for water changes, in all my tanks. I have absolutely no argument with successful breeders that breed my fish species at higher pH levels, however in my tanks I would like to keep my pH levels between 5.5 and 6.5 and not worry about fluctuations outside this range.
             
            I was looking for a way to quickly reduce the pH to 6.0 to 6.5 in a Large Holding Tank and maintain it at that level.The Killie breeders told me to use white Vinegar or Lemon juice, but before I try this I wanted to know if anyone has experience using this method and any pitfalls to avoid. 
             
            Bob DeBonis
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 3:43 PM
            Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank

             

                 Most killifish do not need acidic water. Some prefer soft water which may become acidic with time if it remains soft. Wild angel fish sometimes require soft and acid water. Most killies that need soft water do not care what the pH is. Keeping Nothobranchius species does not require nor is it advisable to use soft acid water. The bottom line is that hardness and total dissolved solids, which affect osmotic pressure and other colligative prepares, are much more important than pH. The pH in a natural body of water varies considerably day to night and the fish do not care. They do care about sudden change in osmotic pressure. It can rupture the gills.
            Keeping a tank at low pH requires the absence of buffering minerals. Therefore it is rare that a hard acidic condition can be maintained. A soft water like rain water will be low in pH usually. If the water is very pure, measurement of pH is difficult and meaningless. Diapterons and some South American annuals require softer water. I use half and half rain or RO water with tap water (200 PPM TDS) to achieve softer water for them. The only situation where pH is very important is when the pH drops to very low (below 5) values because of lack of water changes. Whether it is the low pH or the combined accumulation of waste products is debatable.
                 A practical method of making soft acid water is to filter it through peat moss. Depending on the hardness of the water you start with, it may take a while. Keeping soft water acidic also requires the absence of any rocks or gravel that may affect the pH.

            Lee Harper
            Media, PA

          • lharper392000
            ... In a storage tank, to lower the pH without adding suspect anions I would use hydrochloric acid (a.k.a. muriatic acid). It is readily available at hardware
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 12, 2013
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              In a message dated 4/12/13 4:50:08 PM, rdebon@... writes:


              I was looking for a way to quickly reduce the pH to 6.0 to 6.5 in a Large Holding Tank and maintain it at that level. The Killie breeders told me to use white Vinegar or Lemon juice, but before I try this I wanted to know if anyone has experience using this method and any pitfalls to avoid. 
               



              In a storage tank, to lower the pH without adding suspect anions I would use hydrochloric acid (a.k.a. muriatic acid). It is readily available at hardware stores, but should be handled with caution. I would not use it directly in a tank with fish, but in a very diluted form. Always add the acid to water not vice versa.



              Lee Harper
              Media, PA

            • Gerald
              You can lower pH in your holding tank with acids, and pH might stay close to where you want it while it s in the holding tank with nothing to react with, but
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 12, 2013
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                You can lower pH in your holding tank with acids, and pH might stay close to where you want it while it's in the holding tank with nothing to react with, but it can instantly rise or fall as soon as you add it to a tank with fish, plants, rocks, wood, etc, if its buffering capacity is nearly zero. You can buy acidic buffers (salts) to get a stable low pH, but then you're increasing total dissolved solids which you may not want for species that prefer very low conductivity. I've used peat and leaves in water-conditioning barrels for soft-water fish, but it doesn't always pull the pH down much. My tap water is about 2 dGH, 2 dKH, pH 7.5, and conductivity around 150 uS. The complex organic acids from peat and leaves provide a little acidic buffering - not much - but more than an inorganic acid like HCl does. You might try a little HCl (or other acid) PLUS the peat/leaves. Let us know how it works out. There's other blackwater-heads here who'd like to find a good method.


                --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, Robert DeBonis <rdebon@...> wrote:
                >
                > Lee,
                >
                > Thank you for the information. I'm not questioning whether or not Killiefish or any other species for that matter need low pH and I agree with you about pH fluctuation in natural bodies of water, however I may have misled people in my Post. I omitted in my original Post that I raise mostly Anabantids, from Asia and Africa, including wild Betta's. The information I received on using Vinegar and Lemon juice to reduce pH in a Holding Tank came from Killie Breeders I know, I currently do not raise Killiefish. Filtering the water through Peat Moss is a technique I use for many of the species I have, since all my tanks have Peat in their Box Filters and I use a lot of leaf litter in my tanks. My pH runs depending on the individual tank between 5.0 to 7.0. I find that Low pH does matter for some wild caught Betta species especially if they are newly caught and have not acclimated to higher pH levels. I currently maintain the water quality in 22 tanks manually. If I ever want to increase the number of tanks, what I need is to get a water source that will give me lower pH (6.0 to 6.5) water on demand, and the easiest method available to me at this time is a large holding tank that I can use for water changes, in all my tanks. I have absolutely no argument with successful breeders that breed my fish species at higher pH levels, however in my tanks I would like to keep my pH levels between 5.5 and 6.5 and not worry about fluctuations outside this range.
                >
                > I was looking for a way to quickly reduce the pH to 6.0 to 6.5 in a Large Holding Tank and maintain it at that level.The Killie breeders told me to use white Vinegar or Lemon juice, but before I try this I wanted to know if anyone has experience using this method and any pitfalls to avoid.
                >
                > Bob DeBonis
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: leeh920226@...
                > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 3:43 PM
                > Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank
                >
                >
                >
                > Most killifish do not need acidic water. Some prefer soft water which may become acidic with time if it remains soft. Wild angel fish sometimes require soft and acid water. Most killies that need soft water do not care what the pH is. Keeping Nothobranchius species does not require nor is it advisable to use soft acid water. The bottom line is that hardness and total dissolved solids, which affect osmotic pressure and other colligative prepares, are much more important than pH. The pH in a natural body of water varies considerably day to night and the fish do not care. They do care about sudden change in osmotic pressure. It can rupture the gills.
                > Keeping a tank at low pH requires the absence of buffering minerals. Therefore it is rare that a hard acidic condition can be maintained. A soft water like rain water will be low in pH usually. If the water is very pure, measurement of pH is difficult and meaningless. Diapterons and some South American annuals require softer water. I use half and half rain or RO water with tap water (200 PPM TDS) to achieve softer water for them. The only situation where pH is very important is when the pH drops to very low (below 5) values because of lack of water changes. Whether it is the low pH or the combined accumulation of waste products is debatable.
                > A practical method of making soft acid water is to filter it through peat moss. Depending on the hardness of the water you start with, it may take a while. Keeping soft water acidic also requires the absence of any rocks or gravel that may affect the pH.
                >
                > Lee Harper
                > Media, PA
                >
              • Robert DeBonis
                As soon as I find out anything that works for a Holding Tank I will notify the group. I m still struggling with Buffering, since buffering as I understand it
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 12, 2013
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                  As soon as I find out anything that works for a Holding Tank I will notify the group. I'm still struggling with Buffering, since buffering as I understand it can stabilize a rise or fall in the pH. What you say makes sense about the change in pH when you add the water to the tank. Water Chemistry is very complex, and to get the right balance between GH, KH, pH and conductivity is probably beyond my expertise, however I believe that with time and experience it can be done. I'll let you know.  
                   
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Gerald
                  Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:20 PM
                  Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank

                   

                  You can lower pH in your holding tank with acids, and pH might stay close to where you want it while it's in the holding tank with nothing to react with, but it can instantly rise or fall as soon as you add it to a tank with fish, plants, rocks, wood, etc, if its buffering capacity is nearly zero. You can buy acidic buffers (salts) to get a stable low pH, but then you're increasing total dissolved solids which you may not want for species that prefer very low conductivity. I've used peat and leaves in water-conditioning barrels for soft-water fish, but it doesn't always pull the pH down much. My tap water is about 2 dGH, 2 dKH, pH 7.5, and conductivity around 150 uS. The complex organic acids from peat and leaves provide a little acidic buffering - not much - but more than an inorganic acid like HCl does. You might try a little HCl (or other acid) PLUS the peat/leaves. Let us know how it works out. There's other blackwater-heads here who'd like to find a good method.

                  --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, Robert DeBonis <rdebon@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Lee,
                  >
                  > Thank you for the information. I'm not questioning whether or not Killiefish or any other species for that matter need low pH and I agree with you about pH fluctuation in natural bodies of water, however I may have misled people in my Post. I omitted in my original Post that I raise mostly Anabantids, from Asia and Africa, including wild Betta's. The information I received on using Vinegar and Lemon juice to reduce pH in a Holding Tank came from Killie Breeders I know, I currently do not raise Killiefish. Filtering the water through Peat Moss is a technique I use for many of the species I have, since all my tanks have Peat in their Box Filters and I use a lot of leaf litter in my tanks. My pH runs depending on the individual tank between 5.0 to 7.0. I find that Low pH does matter for some wild caught Betta species especially if they are newly caught and have not acclimated to higher pH levels. I currently maintain the water quality in 22 tanks manually. If I ever want to increase the number of tanks, what I need is to get a water source that will give me lower pH (6.0 to 6.5) water on demand, and the easiest method available to me at this time is a large holding tank that I can use for water changes, in all my tanks. I have absolutely no argument with successful breeders that breed my fish species at higher pH levels, however in my tanks I would like to keep my pH levels between 5.5 and 6.5 and not worry about fluctuations outside this range.
                  >
                  > I was looking for a way to quickly reduce the pH to 6.0 to 6.5 in a Large Holding Tank and maintain it at that level.The Killie breeders told me to use white Vinegar or Lemon juice, but before I try this I wanted to know if anyone has experience using this method and any pitfalls to avoid.
                  >
                  > Bob DeBonis
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: leeh920226@...
                  > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 3:43 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Most killifish do not need acidic water. Some prefer soft water which may become acidic with time if it remains soft. Wild angel fish sometimes require soft and acid water. Most killies that need soft water do not care what the pH is. Keeping Nothobranchius species does not require nor is it advisable to use soft acid water. The bottom line is that hardness and total dissolved solids, which affect osmotic pressure and other colligative prepares, are much more important than pH. The pH in a natural body of water varies considerably day to night and the fish do not care. They do care about sudden change in osmotic pressure. It can rupture the gills.
                  > Keeping a tank at low pH requires the absence of buffering minerals. Therefore it is rare that a hard acidic condition can be maintained. A soft water like rain water will be low in pH usually. If the water is very pure, measurement of pH is difficult and meaningless. Diapterons and some South American annuals require softer water. I use half and half rain or RO water with tap water (200 PPM TDS) to achieve softer water for them. The only situation where pH is very important is when the pH drops to very low (below 5) values because of lack of water changes. Whether it is the low pH or the combined accumulation of waste products is debatable.
                  > A practical method of making soft acid water is to filter it through peat moss. Depending on the hardness of the water you start with, it may take a while. Keeping soft water acidic also requires the absence of any rocks or gravel that may affect the pH.
                  >
                  > Lee Harper
                  > Media, PA
                  >

                • Larry Vires
                  It can be done, but after a couple years fighting with it I came to the conclusion it can t be done in an artificial environment (fish tanks) using organic
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 15, 2013
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                    It can be done, but after a couple years fighting with it I came to the conclusion it can't be done in an artificial environment (fish tanks) using organic acids.  Stability and bonding with other organics creates too much of a complex nightmare.  Even using inorganic acids, similar to what I'm now having success with, temperature changes can cause some degree of swing through the warmer months when there is a lot more variation in day and night temperatures in the fish room.  When using inorganic acids, it also has to be realized that the longer the water is stored in the mixing reservoir, the more stable the buffer system becomes.  I don't know why this takes place, but can only assume it allows the acid and buffer to reach an equilibrium that isn't immediately there either by mixing or stoichiometry has been beyond my necessity to research since making the change to my acid dosing system.  For those interested in seeing my system, there was a pic of it posted on the ALFA facebook page a couple weeks ago.

                    Larry



                    From: Robert DeBonis <rdebon@...>
                    To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 3:47 PM
                    Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank

                     
                     
                    As soon as I find out anything that works for a Holding Tank I will notify the group. I'm still struggling with Buffering, since buffering as I understand it can stabilize a rise or fall in the pH. What you say makes sense about the change in pH when you add the water to the tank. Water Chemistry is very complex, and to get the right balance between GH, KH, pH and conductivity is probably beyond my expertise, however I believe that with time and experience it can be done. I'll let you know.  
                     
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Gerald
                    Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:20 PM
                    Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank

                     
                    You can lower pH in your holding tank with acids, and pH might stay close to where you want it while it's in the holding tank with nothing to react with, but it can instantly rise or fall as soon as you add it to a tank with fish, plants, rocks, wood, etc, if its buffering capacity is nearly zero. You can buy acidic buffers (salts) to get a stable low pH, but then you're increasing total dissolved solids which you may not want for species that prefer very low conductivity. I've used peat and leaves in water-conditioning barrels for soft-water fish, but it doesn't always pull the pH down much. My tap water is about 2 dGH, 2 dKH, pH 7.5, and conductivity around 150 uS. The complex organic acids from peat and leaves provide a little acidic buffering - not much - but more than an inorganic acid like HCl does. You might try a little HCl (or other acid) PLUS the peat/leaves. Let us know how it works out. There's other blackwater-heads here who'd like to find a good method.

                    --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, Robert DeBonis <rdebon@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Lee,
                    >
                    > Thank you for the information. I'm not questioning whether or not Killiefish or any other species for that matter need low pH and I agree with you about pH fluctuation in natural bodies of water, however I may have misled people in my Post. I omitted in my original Post that I raise mostly Anabantids, from Asia and Africa, including wild Betta's. The information I received on using Vinegar and Lemon juice to reduce pH in a Holding Tank came from Killie Breeders I know, I currently do not raise Killiefish. Filtering the water through Peat Moss is a technique I use for many of the species I have, since all my tanks have Peat in their Box Filters and I use a lot of leaf litter in my tanks. My pH runs depending on the individual tank between 5.0 to 7.0. I find that Low pH does matter for some wild caught Betta species especially if they are newly caught and have not acclimated to higher pH levels. I currently maintain the water quality in 22 tanks manually. If I ever want to increase the number of tanks, what I need is to get a water source that will give me lower pH (6.0 to 6.5) water on demand, and the easiest method available to me at this time is a large holding tank that I can use for water changes, in all my tanks. I have absolutely no argument with successful breeders that breed my fish species at higher pH levels, however in my tanks I would like to keep my pH levels between 5.5 and 6.5 and not worry about fluctuations outside this range.
                    >
                    > I was looking for a way to quickly reduce the pH to 6.0 to 6.5 in a Large Holding Tank and maintain it at that level.The Killie breeders told me to use white Vinegar or Lemon juice, but before I try this I wanted to know if anyone has experience using this method and any pitfalls to avoid.
                    >
                    > Bob DeBonis
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: leeh920226@...
                    > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 3:43 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Most killifish do not need acidic water. Some prefer soft water which may become acidic with time if it remains soft. Wild angel fish sometimes require soft and acid water. Most killies that need soft water do not care what the pH is. Keeping Nothobranchius species does not require nor is it advisable to use soft acid water. The bottom line is that hardness and total dissolved solids, which affect osmotic pressure and other colligative prepares, are much more important than pH. The pH in a natural body of water varies considerably day to night and the fish do not care. They do care about sudden change in osmotic pressure. It can rupture the gills.
                    > Keeping a tank at low pH requires the absence of buffering minerals. Therefore it is rare that a hard acidic condition can be maintained. A soft water like rain water will be low in pH usually. If the water is very pure, measurement of pH is difficult and meaningless. Diapterons and some South American annuals require softer water. I use half and half rain or RO water with tap water (200 PPM TDS) to achieve softer water for them. The only situation where pH is very important is when the pH drops to very low (below 5) values because of lack of water changes. Whether it is the low pH or the combined accumulation of waste products is debatable.
                    > A practical method of making soft acid water is to filter it through peat moss. Depending on the hardness of the water you start with, it may take a while. Keeping soft water acidic also requires the absence of any rocks or gravel that may affect the pH.
                    >
                    > Lee Harper
                    > Media, PA
                    >



                  • dan_mcmonigle
                    What about using CO2? You can increase or decrease it to change the pH and to counter the nightly drop in pH. Our well water is carbonated and has a pH of
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 16, 2013
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                      What about using CO2? You can increase or decrease it to change the pH and to counter the nightly drop in pH. Our well water is carbonated and has a pH of about 6.7 out of the tap. Shake it vigorously and the pH rises to 8.3 - 8.4. If you did too big a water change, the fish would pass out, but never showed any ill effects. I think some of them liked it. Although we now have both city and well water available and the city water has less calcium and iron so the tanks look cleaner.



                      --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, Larry Vires <pleco_breeder@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > It can be done, but after a couple years fighting with it I came to the conclusion it can't be done in an artificial environment (fish tanks) using organic acids.  Stability and bonding with other organics creates too much of a complex nightmare.  Even using inorganic acids, similar to what I'm now having success with, temperature changes can cause some degree of swing through the warmer months when there is a lot more variation in day and night temperatures in the fish room.  When using inorganic acids, it also has to be realized that the longer the water is stored in the mixing reservoir, the more stable the buffer system becomes.  I don't know why this takes place, but can only assume it allows the acid and buffer to reach an equilibrium that isn't immediately there either by mixing or stoichiometry has been beyond my necessity to research since making the change to my acid dosing system.  For those interested in seeing my system, there was a pic
                      > of it posted on the ALFA facebook page a couple weeks ago.
                      >
                      > Larry
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Robert DeBonis <rdebon@...>
                      > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 3:47 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >  
                      > As soon as I find out anything that works for a Holding Tank I will notify
                      > the group. I'm still struggling with Buffering, since buffering as I
                      > understand it can stabilize a rise or fall in the pH. What you say makes
                      > sense about the change in pH when you add the water to the
                      > tank. Water Chemistry is very complex, and to get the right balance between
                      > GH, KH, pH and conductivity is probably beyond my expertise, however I believe
                      > that with time and experience it can be done. I'll let you
                      > know.  
                      >  
                      >  
                      >  
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > >From: Gerald
                      > >To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                      > >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:20
                      > PM
                      > >Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank
                      > >
                      > > 
                      > >You can lower pH in your holding tank with acids, and pH might stay close to where you want it while it's in the holding tank with nothing to react with, but it can instantly rise or fall as soon as you add it to a tank with fish, plants, rocks, wood, etc, if its buffering capacity is nearly zero. You can buy acidic buffers (salts) to get a stable low pH, but then you're increasing total dissolved solids which you may not want for species that prefer very low conductivity. I've used peat and leaves in water-conditioning barrels for soft-water fish, but it doesn't always pull the pH down much. My tap water is about 2 dGH, 2 dKH, pH 7.5, and conductivity around 150 uS. The complex organic acids from peat and leaves provide a little acidic buffering - not much - but more than an inorganic acid like HCl does. You might try a little HCl (or other acid) PLUS the peat/leaves. Let us know how it works out. There's other blackwater-heads here who'd
                      > like to find a good method.
                      > >
                      > >--- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, Robert DeBonis <rdebon@> wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >> Lee,
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > Thank you for the information. I'm not questioning whether or not Killiefish
                      > or any other species for that matter need low pH and I agree with you about pH
                      > fluctuation in natural bodies of water, however I may have misled people in my
                      > Post. I omitted in my original Post that I raise mostly Anabantids, from Asia
                      > and Africa, including wild Betta's. The information I received on using
                      > Vinegar and Lemon juice to reduce pH in a Holding Tank came from Killie
                      > Breeders I know, I currently do not raise Killiefish. Filtering the water
                      > through Peat Moss is a technique I use for many of the species I have, since
                      > all my tanks have Peat in their Box Filters and I use a lot of leaf litter in
                      > my tanks. My pH runs depending on the individual tank between 5.0 to 7.0. I
                      > find that Low pH does matter for some wild caught Betta species especially if
                      > they are newly caught and have not acclimated to higher pH levels. I currently
                      > maintain the water quality in 22 tanks manually. If I ever want to increase
                      > the number of tanks, what I need is to get a water source that will give me
                      > lower pH (6.0 to 6.5) water on demand, and the easiest method available to me
                      > at this time is a large holding tank that I can use for water changes, in all
                      > my tanks. I have absolutely no argument with successful breeders that breed my
                      > fish species at higher pH levels, however in my tanks I would like to keep my
                      > pH levels between 5.5 and 6.5 and not worry about fluctuations outside this
                      > range.
                      > >>
                      > >> I was looking for a way to quickly reduce the pH to
                      > 6.0 to 6.5 in a Large Holding Tank and maintain it at that level.The Killie
                      > breeders told me to use white Vinegar or Lemon juice, but before I try this I
                      > wanted to know if anyone has experience using this method and any pitfalls to
                      > avoid.
                      > >>
                      > >> Bob DeBonis
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> ----- Original
                      > Message -----
                      > >> From: leeh920226@
                      > >> To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                      > >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 3:43 PM
                      > >> Subject: Re:
                      > [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> Most killifish do not need acidic water. Some prefer soft water which
                      > may become acidic with time if it remains soft. Wild angel fish sometimes
                      > require soft and acid water. Most killies that need soft water do not care
                      > what the pH is. Keeping Nothobranchius species does not require nor is it
                      > advisable to use soft acid water. The bottom line is that hardness and total
                      > dissolved solids, which affect osmotic pressure and other colligative
                      > prepares, are much more important than pH. The pH in a natural body of water
                      > varies considerably day to night and the fish do not care. They do care about
                      > sudden change in osmotic pressure. It can rupture the gills.
                      > >> Keeping a
                      > tank at low pH requires the absence of buffering minerals. Therefore it is
                      > rare that a hard acidic condition can be maintained. A soft water like rain
                      > water will be low in pH usually. If the water is very pure, measurement of pH
                      > is difficult and meaningless. Diapterons and some South American annuals
                      > require softer water. I use half and half rain or RO water with tap water (200
                      > PPM TDS) to achieve softer water for them. The only situation where pH is very
                      > important is when the pH drops to very low (below 5) values because of lack of
                      > water changes. Whether it is the low pH or the combined accumulation of waste
                      > products is debatable.
                      > >> A practical method of making soft acid water is
                      > to filter it through peat moss. Depending on the hardness of the water you
                      > start with, it may take a while. Keeping soft water acidic also requires the
                      > absence of any rocks or gravel that may affect the pH.
                      > >>
                      > >> Lee
                      > Harper
                      > >> Media, PA
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • David Williams
                      CO2 is an artificial change. It is also a change that happens every day in nature, natural environments often show drastic PH swings from day to night as flora
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 18, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment

                        CO2 is an artificial change. It is also a change that happens every day in nature, natural environments often show drastic PH swings from day to night as flora is active or not, temperature swings, etc.

                         

                        Simply meaning what fish, and in particular the breeding of fish, more often care about is water softness or hardness. CO2 injection doesn't change that.

                         

                        Personally I've been told before and tend to believe that the whole PH as a measure for adequacy of water for a particular fish was a (misguided) attempt by brick and mortar stores to give people a quick, easy, and inexpensive test for their water at home to find if their water was soft or hard.

                         

                        Why would brick and mortar do that? 99% of the people out there don't tweak water at all - hence, PH tests become a test that might actually give some rudimentary knowledge to a store owner of the customer's water at home. However, the reality for more detailed and advanced aquarists is that you can tweak the bejeasus out of PH is you want to, CO2 being one way - but not change if it is liquid concrete or softer than a pillow.

                         

                        From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dan_mcmonigle
                        Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 8:56 AM
                        To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank

                         

                         


                        What about using CO2? You can increase or decrease it to change the pH and to counter the nightly drop in pH. Our well water is carbonated and has a pH of about 6.7 out of the tap. Shake it vigorously and the pH rises to 8.3 - 8.4. If you did too big a water change, the fish would pass out, but never showed any ill effects. I think some of them liked it. Although we now have both city and well water available and the city water has less calcium and iron so the tanks look cleaner.

                        --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, Larry Vires <pleco_breeder@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > It can be done, but after a couple years fighting with it I came to the
                        conclusion it can't be done in an artificial environment (fish tanks) using organic acids.  Stability and bonding with other organics creates too much of a complex nightmare.  Even using inorganic acids, similar to what I'm now having success with, temperature changes can cause some degree of swing through the warmer months when there is a lot more variation in day and night temperatures in the fish room.  When using inorganic acids, it also has to be realized that the longer the water is stored in the mixing reservoir, the more stable the buffer system becomes.  I don't know why this takes place, but can only assume it allows the acid and buffer to reach an equilibrium that isn't immediately there either by mixing or stoichiometry has been beyond my necessity to research since making the change to my acid dosing system.  For those interested in seeing my system, there was a pic
                        > of it posted on the ALFA facebook page a couple weeks ago.
                        >
                        > Larry
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: Robert DeBonis <rdebon@...>
                        > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 3:47 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >  
                        > As soon as I find out anything that works for a Holding Tank I will notify
                        > the group. I'm still struggling with Buffering, since buffering as I
                        > understand it can stabilize a rise or fall in the pH. What you say
                        makes
                        > sense about the change in pH when you add the water to the
                        > tank. Water Chemistry is very complex, and to get the right balance
                        between
                        > GH, KH, pH and conductivity is probably beyond my expertise, however I
                        believe
                        > that with time and experience it can be done. I'll let you
                        > know.  
                        >  
                        >  
                        >  
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > >From: Gerald
                        > >To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                        > >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:20
                        > PM
                        > >Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank
                        > >
                        > > 
                        > >You can lower pH in your holding tank with acids, and pH might stay
                        close to where you want it while it's in the holding tank with nothing to react with, but it can instantly rise or fall as soon as you add it to a tank with fish, plants, rocks, wood, etc, if its buffering capacity is nearly zero. You can buy acidic buffers (salts) to get a stable low pH, but then you're increasing total dissolved solids which you may not want for species that prefer very low conductivity. I've used peat and leaves in water-conditioning barrels for soft-water fish, but it doesn't always pull the pH down much. My tap water is about 2 dGH, 2 dKH, pH 7.5, and conductivity around 150 uS. The complex organic acids from peat and leaves provide a little acidic buffering - not much - but more than an inorganic acid like HCl does. You might try a little HCl (or other acid) PLUS the peat/leaves. Let us know how it works out. There's other blackwater-heads here who'd
                        > like to find a good method.
                        > >
                        > >--- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com,
                        Robert DeBonis <rdebon@> wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >> Lee,
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > Thank you for the information. I'm not questioning whether or not
                        Killiefish
                        > or any other species for that matter need low pH and I agree with you
                        about pH
                        > fluctuation in natural bodies of water, however I may have misled people
                        in my
                        > Post. I omitted in my original Post that I raise mostly Anabantids, from
                        Asia
                        > and Africa, including wild Betta's. The information I received on using
                        > Vinegar and Lemon juice to reduce pH in a Holding Tank came from Killie
                        > Breeders I know, I currently do not raise Killiefish. Filtering the water
                        > through Peat Moss is a technique I use for many of the species I have,
                        since
                        > all my tanks have Peat in their Box Filters and I use a lot of leaf litter
                        in
                        > my tanks. My pH runs depending on the individual tank between 5.0 to 7.0.
                        I
                        > find that Low pH does matter for some wild caught Betta species especially
                        if
                        > they are newly caught and have not acclimated to higher pH levels. I
                        currently
                        > maintain the water quality in 22 tanks manually. If I ever want to
                        increase
                        > the number of tanks, what I need is to get a water source that will give
                        me
                        > lower pH (6.0 to 6.5) water on demand, and the easiest method available to
                        me
                        > at this time is a large holding tank that I can use for water changes, in
                        all
                        > my tanks. I have absolutely no argument with successful breeders that
                        breed my
                        > fish species at higher pH levels, however in my tanks I would like to keep
                        my
                        > pH levels between 5.5 and 6.5 and not worry about fluctuations outside
                        this
                        > range.
                        > >>
                        > >> I was looking for a way to quickly reduce the pH to
                        > 6.0 to 6.5 in a Large Holding Tank and maintain it at that level.The
                        Killie
                        > breeders told me to use white Vinegar or Lemon juice, but before I try
                        this I
                        > wanted to know if anyone has experience using this method and any pitfalls
                        to
                        > avoid.
                        > >>
                        > >> Bob DeBonis
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> ----- Original
                        > Message -----
                        > >> From: leeh920226@
                        > >> To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                        > >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 3:43 PM
                        > >> Subject: Re:
                        > [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> Most killifish do not need acidic water. Some prefer soft water
                        which
                        > may become acidic with time if it remains soft. Wild angel fish sometimes
                        > require soft and acid water. Most killies that need soft water do not care
                        > what the pH is. Keeping Nothobranchius species does not require nor is it
                        > advisable to use soft acid water. The bottom line is that hardness and
                        total
                        > dissolved solids, which affect osmotic pressure and other colligative
                        > prepares, are much more important than pH. The pH in a natural body of water
                        > varies considerably day to night and the fish do not care. They do care
                        about
                        > sudden change in osmotic pressure. It can rupture the gills.
                        > >> Keeping a
                        > tank at low pH requires the absence of buffering minerals. Therefore it is
                        > rare that a hard acidic condition can be maintained. A soft water like
                        rain
                        > water will be low in pH usually. If the water is very pure, measurement of
                        pH
                        > is difficult and meaningless. Diapterons and some South American annuals
                        > require softer water. I use half and half rain or RO water with tap water
                        (200
                        > PPM TDS) to achieve softer water for them. The only situation where pH is
                        very
                        > important is when the pH drops to very low (below 5) values because of
                        lack of
                        > water changes. Whether it is the low pH or the combined accumulation of
                        waste
                        > products is debatable.
                        > >> A practical method of making soft acid water is
                        > to filter it through peat moss. Depending on the hardness of the water you
                        > start with, it may take a while. Keeping soft water acidic also requires
                        the
                        > absence of any rocks or gravel that may affect the pH.
                        > >>
                        > >> Lee
                        > Harper
                        > >> Media, PA
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        >

                      • Melissa
                        I may have completely missed the point, but what s wrong with mixing your tap with rain water? ... I may have completely missed the point, but what s wrong
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 18, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I may have completely missed the point, but what's wrong with mixing your tap with rain water?


                          On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 5:13 PM, David Williams <ingg1196@...> wrote:


                          CO2 is an artificial change. It is also a change that happens every day in nature, natural environments often show drastic PH swings from day to night as flora is active or not, temperature swings, etc.

                           

                          Simply meaning what fish, and in particular the breeding of fish, more often care about is water softness or hardness. CO2 injection doesn't change that.

                           

                          Personally I've been told before and tend to believe that the whole PH as a measure for adequacy of water for a particular fish was a (misguided) attempt by brick and mortar stores to give people a quick, easy, and inexpensive test for their water at home to find if their water was soft or hard.

                           

                          Why would brick and mortar do that? 99% of the people out there don't tweak water at all - hence, PH tests become a test that might actually give some rudimentary knowledge to a store owner of the customer's water at home. However, the reality for more detailed and advanced aquarists is that you can tweak the bejeasus out of PH is you want to, CO2 being one way - but not change if it is liquid concrete or softer than a pillow.

                           

                          From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dan_mcmonigle
                          Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 8:56 AM
                          To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com


                          Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank

                           

                           


                          What about using CO2? You can increase or decrease it to change the pH and to counter the nightly drop in pH. Our well water is carbonated and has a pH of about 6.7 out of the tap. Shake it vigorously and the pH rises to 8.3 - 8.4. If you did too big a water change, the fish would pass out, but never showed any ill effects. I think some of them liked it. Although we now have both city and well water available and the city water has less calcium and iron so the tanks look cleaner.

                          --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, Larry Vires <pleco_breeder@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > It can be done, but after a couple years fighting with it I came to the conclusion it can't be done in an artificial environment (fish tanks) using organic acids.  Stability and bonding with other organics creates too much of a complex nightmare.  Even using inorganic acids, similar to what I'm now having success with, temperature changes can cause some degree of swing through the warmer months when there is a lot more variation in day and night temperatures in the fish room.  When using inorganic acids, it also has to be realized that the longer the water is stored in the mixing reservoir, the more stable the buffer system becomes.  I don't know why this takes place, but can only assume it allows the acid and buffer to reach an equilibrium that isn't immediately there either by mixing or stoichiometry has been beyond my necessity to research since making the change to my acid dosing system.  For those interested in seeing my system, there was a pic
                          > of it posted on the ALFA facebook page a couple weeks ago.
                          >
                          > Larry
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: Robert DeBonis <rdebon@...>
                          > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 3:47 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >  
                          > As soon as I find out anything that works for a Holding Tank I will notify
                          > the group. I'm still struggling with Buffering, since buffering as I
                          > understand it can stabilize a rise or fall in the pH. What you say makes
                          > sense about the change in pH when you add the water to the
                          > tank. Water Chemistry is very complex, and to get the right balance between
                          > GH, KH, pH and conductivity is probably beyond my expertise, however I believe
                          > that with time and experience it can be done. I'll let you
                          > know.  
                          >  
                          >  
                          >  
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > >From: Gerald
                          > >To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                          > >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:20
                          > PM
                          > >Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank
                          > >
                          > > 
                          > >You can lower pH in your holding tank with acids, and pH might stay close to where you want it while it's in the holding tank with nothing to react with, but it can instantly rise or fall as soon as you add it to a tank with fish, plants, rocks, wood, etc, if its buffering capacity is nearly zero. You can buy acidic buffers (salts) to get a stable low pH, but then you're increasing total dissolved solids which you may not want for species that prefer very low conductivity. I've used peat and leaves in water-conditioning barrels for soft-water fish, but it doesn't always pull the pH down much. My tap water is about 2 dGH, 2 dKH, pH 7.5, and conductivity around 150 uS. The complex organic acids from peat and leaves provide a little acidic buffering - not much - but more than an inorganic acid like HCl does. You might try a little HCl (or other acid) PLUS the peat/leaves. Let us know how it works out. There's other blackwater-heads here who'd
                          > like to find a good method.
                          > >
                          > >--- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, Robert DeBonis <rdebon@> wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >> Lee,
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > Thank you for the information. I'm not questioning whether or not Killiefish
                          > or any other species for that matter need low pH and I agree with you about pH
                          > fluctuation in natural bodies of water, however I may have misled people in my
                          > Post. I omitted in my original Post that I raise mostly Anabantids, from Asia
                          > and Africa, including wild Betta's. The information I received on using
                          > Vinegar and Lemon juice to reduce pH in a Holding Tank came from Killie
                          > Breeders I know, I currently do not raise Killiefish. Filtering the water
                          > through Peat Moss is a technique I use for many of the species I have, since
                          > all my tanks have Peat in their Box Filters and I use a lot of leaf litter in
                          > my tanks. My pH runs depending on the individual tank between 5.0 to 7.0. I
                          > find that Low pH does matter for some wild caught Betta species especially if
                          > they are newly caught and have not acclimated to higher pH levels. I currently
                          > maintain the water quality in 22 tanks manually. If I ever want to increase
                          > the number of tanks, what I need is to get a water source that will give me
                          > lower pH (6.0 to 6.5) water on demand, and the easiest method available to me
                          > at this time is a large holding tank that I can use for water changes, in all
                          > my tanks. I have absolutely no argument with successful breeders that breed my
                          > fish species at higher pH levels, however in my tanks I would like to keep my
                          > pH levels between 5.5 and 6.5 and not worry about fluctuations outside this
                          > range.
                          > >>
                          > >> I was looking for a way to quickly reduce the pH to
                          > 6.0 to 6.5 in a Large Holding Tank and maintain it at that level.The Killie
                          > breeders told me to use white Vinegar or Lemon juice, but before I try this I
                          > wanted to know if anyone has experience using this method and any pitfalls to
                          > avoid.
                          > >>
                          > >> Bob DeBonis
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> ----- Original
                          > Message -----
                          > >> From: leeh920226@
                          > >> To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                          > >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 3:43 PM
                          > >> Subject: Re:
                          > [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> Most killifish do not need acidic water. Some prefer soft water which
                          > may become acidic with time if it remains soft. Wild angel fish sometimes
                          > require soft and acid water. Most killies that need soft water do not care
                          > what the pH is. Keeping Nothobranchius species does not require nor is it
                          > advisable to use soft acid water. The bottom line is that hardness and total
                          > dissolved solids, which affect osmotic pressure and other colligative
                          > prepares, are much more important than pH. The pH in a natural body of water
                          > varies considerably day to night and the fish do not care. They do care about
                          > sudden change in osmotic pressure. It can rupture the gills.
                          > >> Keeping a
                          > tank at low pH requires the absence of buffering minerals. Therefore it is
                          > rare that a hard acidic condition can be maintained. A soft water like rain
                          > water will be low in pH usually. If the water is very pure, measurement of pH
                          > is difficult and meaningless. Diapterons and some South American annuals
                          > require softer water. I use half and half rain or RO water with tap water (200
                          > PPM TDS) to achieve softer water for them. The only situation where pH is very
                          > important is when the pH drops to very low (below 5) values because of lack of
                          > water changes. Whether it is the low pH or the combined accumulation of waste
                          > products is debatable.
                          > >> A practical method of making soft acid water is
                          > to filter it through peat moss. Depending on the hardness of the water you
                          > start with, it may take a while. Keeping soft water acidic also requires the
                          > absence of any rocks or gravel that may affect the pH.
                          > >>
                          > >> Lee
                          > Harper
                          > >> Media, PA
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          >




                        • Anubias Design
                          Not a thing, Melissa.  Lots of people do it that way.  Mark We are proud to announce the formation of the American Labyrinth Fish Association (ALFA). We are
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 19, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Not a thing, Melissa.  Lots of people do it that way. 
                            Mark

                            We are proud to announce the formation of the American Labyrinth Fish Association (ALFA). We are starting out as a Yahoo Group with plans for a website and magazine. Please join us as we endeavor to learn more about these fascinating fish. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanLabyrinthFishAssociation/

                            Or check us out on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/404408802964088/

                            --- On Thu, 4/18/13, Melissa <taointhebryony@...> wrote:

                            From: Melissa <taointhebryony@...>
                            Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank
                            To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Thursday, April 18, 2013, 7:21 PM

                             
                            I may have completely missed the point, but what's wrong with mixing your tap with rain water?


                             
                          • dan_mcmonigle
                            I don t understand in what sense CO2 is artificial. Natural water supplies contain CO2, some like the one available to me, to the point they bubble like a
                            Message 13 of 15 , Apr 19, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I don't understand in what sense CO2 is artificial. Natural water supplies contain CO2, some like the one available to me, to the point they bubble like a carbonated beverage. Plants (flora) absorb CO2 more efficiently at night and so they do not become completely inactive. They stop producing oxygen. In fact some plants from hot climates where the energy cost of absorbing CO2 during the day is high, only absorb CO2 at night. The pH swings on a daily cycle may not be directly a result of CO2 absorption since plants don't stop absorbing CO2 just because it gets dark.

                              --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, "David Williams" <ingg1196@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > CO2 is an artificial change. It is also a change that happens every day in
                              > nature, natural environments often show drastic PH swings from day to night
                              > as flora is active or not, temperature swings, etc.
                            • Larry Vires
                              I think what was trying to be said is CO2 levels in nature are very dependent upon the type and amount of buffers in the system.  This is why a lot of the
                              Message 14 of 15 , Apr 19, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I think what was trying to be said is CO2 levels in nature are very dependent upon the type and amount of buffers in the system.  This is why a lot of the older aquarium books use the infamous chart with KH and pH to figure CO2 levels.  It's accurate to a very close margin, but doesn't apply to systems with injected CO2 because one of the parameters is altered.  This is also why drop checkers can be used on those tanks .  If the injected CO2 were turned off, the system would stabilize to its natural level within a few hours.

                                Larry



                                From: dan_mcmonigle <daphnia@...>
                                To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 7:29 AM
                                Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank

                                 
                                I don't understand in what sense CO2 is artificial. Natural water supplies contain CO2, some like the one available to me, to the point they bubble like a carbonated beverage. Plants (flora) absorb CO2 more efficiently at night and so they do not become completely inactive. They stop producing oxygen. In fact some plants from hot climates where the energy cost of absorbing CO2 during the day is high, only absorb CO2 at night. The pH swings on a daily cycle may not be directly a result of CO2 absorption since plants don't stop absorbing CO2 just because it gets dark.

                                --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, "David Williams" <ingg1196@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > CO2 is an artificial change. It is also a change that happens every day in
                                > nature, natural environments often show drastic PH swings from day to night
                                > as flora is active or not, temperature swings, etc.



                              • David Williams
                                Exactly, Larry, thank you. I just meant using CO2 to alter PH doesn t do a thing to make water soft or hard - and it is the water being soft or hard that fish
                                Message 15 of 15 , Apr 20, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  Exactly, Larry, thank you.

                                   

                                  I just meant using CO2 to alter PH doesn't do a thing to make water soft or hard - and it is the water being soft or hard that fish (and inverts) care about, not the PH readings.

                                   

                                  Let me put it in an example. I'm a planted tank guy, and while I don't look to breed a lot of fish, I do like for my little inverts to multiply....Keep in mind - I can make the PH readings whatever I want - almost all of my tanks have CO2 being injected in them.

                                   

                                  Crystal Red Shrimp want soft water and the right water temperatures  or they don't breed. If I don't use a lot of rainwater or another source of soft water in my water changes, they won't breed. If the water gets too warm, they won't breed. Period.... and it doesn't matter if I crank CO2 and bring PH down or not.

                                   

                                  Why? They want cool, soft water. Dropping the PH via CO2 didn't change their need, nor did it change whether the water was soft or hard - it is an artificial change I create with the CO2. I can crank CO2 to whatever PH you want. Short of making the water carbonated and therefore poisonous, of course, I can make it "look" as soft as you can possibly imagine... but KH is KH, hardness is hardness, and that is more often what the livestock really care about. NOT PH.

                                   

                                   

                                  Now, in a system devoid of altering mechanisms -devoid of things like me injecting CO2 in my tanks - PH readings can often show you whether water is hard or soft (unless you got some REALLY funky water, like where those Sulawesi shrimp come from). I say most often, because even then, there are variations depending on the old triangle Larry refers to of GH/KH/PH. But a method that knocks that triangle out of whack (CO2 injection, a boatload of newer driftwood leaching tannins,  or the wide swings in PH that happen in say, the tributaries in Houston's natural waters) doesn't change the other two legs... and it is the other two legs that matter for livestock. Make better sense?

                                   

                                  D

                                   

                                  From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Vires
                                  Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 3:07 PM
                                  To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank

                                   

                                   

                                  I think what was trying to be said is CO2 levels in nature are very dependent upon the type and amount of buffers in the system.  This is why a lot of the older aquarium books use the infamous chart with KH and pH to figure CO2 levels.  It's accurate to a very close margin, but doesn't apply to systems with injected CO2 because one of the parameters is altered.  This is also why drop checkers can be used on those tanks .  If the injected CO2 were turned off, the system would stabilize to its natural level within a few hours.

                                  Larry

                                   

                                   


                                  From: dan_mcmonigle <daphnia@...>
                                  To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 7:29 AM
                                  Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Lowering pH in a Holding Tank

                                   

                                   

                                  I don't understand in what sense CO2 is artificial. Natural water supplies contain CO2, some like the one available to me, to the point they bubble like a carbonated beverage. Plants (flora) absorb CO2 more efficiently at night and so they do not become completely inactive. They stop producing oxygen. In fact some plants from hot climates where the energy cost of absorbing CO2 during the day is high, only absorb CO2 at night. The pH swings on a daily cycle may not be directly a result of CO2 absorption since plants don't stop absorbing CO2 just because it gets dark.

                                  --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, "David Williams" <ingg1196@...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  > CO2 is an artificial change. It is also a change that happens every day in
                                  > nature, natural environments often show drastic PH swings from day to
                                  night
                                  > as flora is active or not, temperature swings, etc.

                                   

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