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Re: Possible Disease Help [1 Attachment]

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  • Gerald
    Agree with Ginny - pinecone scales suggest that kidney is failing and he/she cannot excrete excess water. Could be a bacterial infection, diet imbalance
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 13 6:52 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Agree with Ginny - "pinecone" scales suggest that kidney is failing and he/she cannot excrete excess water. Could be a bacterial infection, diet imbalance (herbivore or omnivore eating too much meat), tumor, lots of possibilities. I would move it to a slightly brackish tank (1 to 2 teasp per gal salt) and feed mostly veggies (cooked peas, sweet potato) and a little brine shrimp for a couple weeks and see if that helps.

      --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, <VGRANDINETTI@...> wrote:
      >
      > I hope it's eggs but when you look down from the top, do the scales look like a "pinecone" If so, it could be the dreaded "dropsy." For those who don't know: Dropsy isn't a disease, it is a symptom of internal organ failure causing fluid retention which forces the scales to stand out. Some sort of bacterial or viral infection causes the organ failure. By the time it gets to the point where the scales "pinecone" it is extremely difficult if not impossible to treat.
      >
      > The swelling in the picture looks too broad to be eggs. Don't eggs usually cause a round ball closer to just the stomach area? The swelling in the picture looks like the whole length of the body.....Ginny
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anubias Design
      > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:17 AM
      > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [anubiasdesign] Possible Disease Help [1 Attachment]
      >
      >
      > [Attachment(s) from Anubias Design included below]
      >
      > Hey Gang,
      > I shot this pic at a friend of mine's house yesterday. This is a red line shark approximately 4 - 4.5" in length. Its behavior is absolutely normal. It's active and breathing normally. The eyes and fins look good. My friend said something about it possibly filling up with eggs so I looked at it more closely and it has a number of scales starting to stand away from the body. On first glance, it does appear to be filling up with eggs though I think it's probably way to small to be in breeding condition. The scales around the abdomen make me think there's something more sinister going on internally but the overall behavior of the fish makes me question that. I'd appreciate your thoughts on it.
      > Mark
      >
      > Anubias Design
      > "where rare species are common"
      >
      > We are proud to announce the formation of the American Labyrinth Fish Association (ALFA). We are starting out as a Yahoo Group with plans for a website and magazine. Please join us as we endeavor to learn more about these fascinating fish. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanLabyrinthFishAssociation/
      >
    • leeh920226@aol.com
      Looks like dropsy to me. Lee Harper Media, PA
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 13 6:55 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Looks like dropsy to me.



        Lee Harper
        Media, PA

      • Anubias Design
        Gerald, That s essentially what I suggested yesterday.  The scales are clearly starting to pinecone (visible along the ventral side of the fish in the pic). 
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 13 6:58 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Gerald,
          That's essentially what I suggested yesterday.  The scales are clearly starting to pinecone (visible along the ventral side of the fish in the pic).  I'll reconfirm that advice.
          Thanks,
          Mark

          Anubias Design
          "where rare species are common"

          We are proud to announce the formation of the American Labyrinth Fish Association (ALFA). We are starting out as a Yahoo Group with plans for a website and magazine. Please join us as we endeavor to learn more about these fascinating fish. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanLabyrinthFishAssociation/

          --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Gerald <gbpottern@...> wrote:

          From: Gerald <gbpottern@...>
          Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help
          To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 9:52 AM

           
          Agree with Ginny - "pinecone" scales suggest that kidney is failing and he/she cannot excrete excess water. Could be a bacterial infection, diet imbalance (herbivore or omnivore eating too much meat), tumor, lots of possibilities. I would move it to a slightly brackish tank (1 to 2 teasp per gal salt) and feed mostly veggies (cooked peas, sweet potato) and a little brine shrimp for a couple weeks and see if that helps.

          --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, <VGRANDINETTI@...> wrote:
          >
          > I hope it's eggs but when you look down from the top, do the scales look like a "pinecone" If so, it could be the dreaded "dropsy." For those who don't know: Dropsy isn't a disease, it is a symptom of internal organ failure causing fluid retention which forces the scales to stand out. Some sort of bacterial or viral infection causes the organ failure. By the time it gets to the point where the scales "pinecone" it is extremely difficult if not impossible to treat.
          >
          > The swelling in the picture looks too broad to be eggs. Don't eggs usually cause a round ball closer to just the stomach area? The swelling in the picture looks like the whole length of the body.....Ginny
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anubias Design
          > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:17 AM
          > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [anubiasdesign] Possible Disease Help [1 Attachment]
          >
          >
          > [Attachment(s) from Anubias Design included below]
          >
          > Hey Gang,
          > I shot this pic at a friend of mine's house yesterday. This is a red line shark approximately 4 - 4.5" in length. Its behavior is absolutely normal. It's active and breathing normally. The eyes and fins look good. My friend said something about it possibly filling up with eggs so I looked at it more closely and it has a number of scales starting to stand away from the body. On first glance, it does appear to be filling up with eggs though I think it's probably way to small to be in breeding condition. The scales around the abdomen make me think there's something more sinister going on internally but the overall behavior of the fish makes me question that. I'd appreciate your thoughts on it.
          > Mark
          >
          > Anubias Design
          > "where rare species are common"
          >
          > We are proud to announce the formation of the American Labyrinth Fish Association (ALFA). We are starting out as a Yahoo Group with plans for a website and magazine. Please join us as we endeavor to learn more about these fascinating fish. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanLabyrinthFishAssociation/
          >

        • Larry Vires
          I have to agree with most of what Gerald said, with exception to the use of salt.  It isn t always kidney failure that causes it, liver is another common
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 13 7:13 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            I have to agree with most of what Gerald said, with exception to the use of salt.  It isn't always kidney failure that causes it, liver is another common organ to shut-down.  However, using salt to treat would likely only speed up the degeneration of the kidneys if they are the problem.

            I know I'm going to catch flack for the "shotgun approach", but I would likely isolate the fish and treat the food for that tank with a broad spectrum antibiotic.  The fish will likely never completely recover from the excess fluid, pinecone scales, but could still live a reasonably long life.  Even after curing, there is no means for the fluid to be absorbed back into their system to be flushed, but it is possible for the fish to grow enough to not cause so much pressure to be misshapen.

            Larry

            --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Gerald <gbpottern@...> wrote:

            From: Gerald <gbpottern@...>
            Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help
            To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 1:52 PM

             

            Agree with Ginny - "pinecone" scales suggest that kidney is failing and he/she cannot excrete excess water. Could be a bacterial infection, diet imbalance (herbivore or omnivore eating too much meat), tumor, lots of possibilities. I would move it to a slightly brackish tank (1 to 2 teasp per gal salt) and feed mostly veggies (cooked peas, sweet potato) and a little brine shrimp for a couple weeks and see if that helps.

            --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, <VGRANDINETTI@...> wrote:
            >
            > I hope it's eggs but when you look down from the top, do the scales look like a "pinecone" If so, it could be the dreaded "dropsy." For those who don't know: Dropsy isn't a disease, it is a symptom of internal organ failure causing fluid retention which forces the scales to stand out. Some sort of bacterial or viral infection causes the organ failure. By the time it gets to the point where the scales "pinecone" it is extremely difficult if not impossible to treat.
            >
            > The swelling in the picture looks too broad to be eggs. Don't eggs usually cause a round ball closer to just the stomach area? The swelling in the picture looks like the whole length of the body.....Ginny
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anubias Design
            > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:17 AM
            > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [anubiasdesign] Possible Disease Help [1 Attachment]
            >
            >
            > [Attachment(s) from Anubias Design included below]
            >
            > Hey Gang,
            > I shot this pic at a friend of mine's house yesterday. This is a red line shark approximately 4 - 4.5" in length. Its behavior is absolutely normal. It's active and breathing normally. The eyes and fins look good. My friend said something about it possibly filling up with eggs so I looked at it more closely and it has a number of scales starting to stand away from the body. On first glance, it does appear to be filling up with eggs though I think it's probably way to small to be in breeding condition. The scales around the abdomen make me think there's something more sinister going on internally but the overall behavior of the fish makes me question that. I'd appreciate your thoughts on it.
            > Mark
            >
            > Anubias Design
            > "where rare species are common"
            >
            > We are proud to announce the formation of the American Labyrinth Fish Association (ALFA). We are starting out as a Yahoo Group with plans for a website and magazine. Please join us as we endeavor to learn more about these fascinating fish. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanLabyrinthFishAssociation/
            >

          • VGRANDINETTI@NJTRANSIT.COM
            Someone gifted my daughter a green spotted puffer in spite of my objections.... It is currently about an inch and a half. I have it in a tank by itself. I
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 13 7:47 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Someone "gifted" my daughter a green spotted puffer  in spite of my objections....
               
              It is currently about an inch and a half.  I have it in a tank by itself. I think the tank is about a 15 gallon Eclipse.  I have a couple of questions.
               
              How much salt should I add?
               
              What other tank mates would be suitable?  I would love to move another over from the community but I don't think they would do well in the same puffer conditions.
               
              Any one have any luck getting them to eat flakes? So Far he will eat frozen brine and bloodworms.
               
              And yes, he is very cute....
               
              Ginny
               

            • Roy Williams
              That is quite a gift indeed, lol. They are truly a brackish species and all their care info can be found in many online sources. The puffer forum can be
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 13 8:08 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                That is quite a 'gift' indeed, lol. They are truly a brackish species and all their care info can be found in many online sources. The puffer forum can be good, but are occasionally snippy with new members. Here is another great site, I would read it over and implement its info slowly. These are brackish water fish that eventually need high end to marine conditions, but you have a few months and implementing it slowly will help you in transitioning the fish and collecting whatever equipment and extras you may need. http://www.greenspottedpuffer.net/index.htm
                 
                "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" Desiderius Erasmus
                From: "VGRANDINETTI@..." <VGRANDINETTI@...>
                To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:47 AM
                Subject: [anubiasdesign] Puffer

                 
                Someone "gifted" my daughter a green spotted puffer  in spite of my objections....
                 
                It is currently about an inch and a half.  I have it in a tank by itself. I think the tank is about a 15 gallon Eclipse.  I have a couple of questions.
                 
                How much salt should I add?
                 
                What other tank mates would be suitable?  I would love to move another over from the community but I don't think they would do well in the same puffer conditions.
                 
                Any one have any luck getting them to eat flakes? So Far he will eat frozen brine and bloodworms.
                 
                And yes, he is very cute....
                 
                Ginny
                 



              • VGRANDINETTI@NJTRANSIT.COM
                As I suspected, this fish may be beyond my energies. In case I could convince my daughter of this, could anyone give him a good home?
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 13 8:42 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  As I suspected, this fish may be beyond my energies.   In case I could convince my daughter of this, could anyone give him a good home?


                  From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Roy Williams
                  Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:09 AM
                  To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Puffer

                   

                  That is quite a 'gift' indeed, lol. They are truly a brackish species and all their care info can be found in many online sources. The puffer forum can be good, but are occasionally snippy with new members. Here is another great site, I would read it over and implement its info slowly. These are brackish water fish that eventually need high end to marine conditions, but you have a few months and implementing it slowly will help you in transitioning the fish and collecting whatever equipment and extras you may need. http://www.greenspottedpuffer.net/index.htm
                   
                  "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" Desiderius Erasmus
                  From: "VGRANDINETTI@..." <VGRANDINETTI@...>
                  To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:47 AM
                  Subject: [anubiasdesign] Puffer

                   
                  Someone "gifted" my daughter a green spotted puffer  in spite of my objections....
                   
                  It is currently about an inch and a half.  I have it in a tank by itself. I think the tank is about a 15 gallon Eclipse.  I have a couple of questions.
                   
                  How much salt should I add?
                   
                  What other tank mates would be suitable?  I would love to move another over from the community but I don't think they would do well in the same puffer conditions.
                   
                  Any one have any luck getting them to eat flakes? So Far he will eat frozen brine and bloodworms.
                   
                  And yes, he is very cute....
                   
                  Ginny
                   



                • Jackie Clark
                  You could give him/her mollies as tank mates.  Mollies can live in salt water if acclimated slowly.  Just add a little more salt to the tank every other day
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 13 8:55 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    You could give him/her mollies as tank mates.  Mollies can live in salt water if acclimated slowly.  Just add a little more salt to the tank every other day or so and when you make water changes.  If you want plants, they best be plastic with the salt.  All you need is a hydrometer and some salt mix.
                    Keep fishin'

                    From: "VGRANDINETTI@..." <VGRANDINETTI@...>
                    To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 10:42 AM
                    Subject: RE: [anubiasdesign] Puffer

                     
                    As I suspected, this fish may be beyond my energies.   In case I could convince my daughter of this, could anyone give him a good home?

                    From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Roy Williams
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:09 AM
                    To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Puffer

                     
                    That is quite a 'gift' indeed, lol. They are truly a brackish species and all their care info can be found in many online sources. The puffer forum can be good, but are occasionally snippy with new members. Here is another great site, I would read it over and implement its info slowly. These are brackish water fish that eventually need high end to marine conditions, but you have a few months and implementing it slowly will help you in transitioning the fish and collecting whatever equipment and extras you may need. http://www.greenspottedpuffer.net/index.htm
                     
                    "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" Desiderius Erasmus
                    From: "VGRANDINETTI@..." <VGRANDINETTI@...>
                    To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:47 AM
                    Subject: [anubiasdesign] Puffer

                     
                    Someone "gifted" my daughter a green spotted puffer  in spite of my objections....
                     
                    It is currently about an inch and a half.  I have it in a tank by itself. I think the tank is about a 15 gallon Eclipse.  I have a couple of questions.
                     
                    How much salt should I add?
                     
                    What other tank mates would be suitable?  I would love to move another over from the community but I don't think they would do well in the same puffer conditions.
                     
                    Any one have any luck getting them to eat flakes? So Far he will eat frozen brine and bloodworms.
                     
                    And yes, he is very cute....
                     
                    Ginny
                     





                  • Gerald
                    Larry - I was thinking 2 to 3 mg/l salinity would reduce his osmotic water intake and lessen the burden on the weakened kidney and liver. And since fish blood
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 13 4:34 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Larry - I was thinking 2 to 3 mg/l salinity would reduce his osmotic water intake and lessen the burden on the weakened kidney and liver. And since fish blood salinity is around 9 mg/l, that 2 to 3 mg/l in the water would not harm the kidney or liver. Faulty thinking here? If so please correct me.

                      I agree antibiotics can sometimes "cure" bloat/dropsy (on rare occasions). Kanamycin or Minocycline might be worth a try if non-drug approaches are not working and if the cause is bacterial. I've seen bloated fish recover and excrete their excess fluid, but recovery is not common.


                      --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, Larry Vires <pleco_breeder@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I have to agree with most of what Gerald said, with exception to the use of salt.  It isn't always kidney failure that causes it, liver is another common organ to shut-down.  However, using salt to treat would likely only speed up the degeneration of the kidneys if they are the problem.
                      >
                      > I know I'm going to catch flack for the "shotgun approach", but I would likely isolate the fish and treat the food for that tank with a broad spectrum antibiotic.  The fish will likely never completely recover from the excess fluid, pinecone scales, but could still live a reasonably long life.  Even after curing, there is no means for the fluid to be absorbed back into their system to be flushed, but it is possible for the fish to grow enough to not cause so much pressure to be misshapen.
                      >
                      > Larry
                      >
                      > --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Gerald <gbpottern@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Gerald <gbpottern@...>
                      > Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help
                      > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 1:52 PM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Agree with Ginny - "pinecone" scales suggest that kidney is failing and he/she cannot excrete excess water. Could be a bacterial infection, diet imbalance (herbivore or omnivore eating too much meat), tumor, lots of possibilities. I would move it to a slightly brackish tank (1 to 2 teasp per gal salt) and feed mostly veggies (cooked peas, sweet potato) and a little brine shrimp for a couple weeks and see if that helps.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, <VGRANDINETTI@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > I hope it's eggs but when you look down from the top, do the scales look like a "pinecone" If so, it could be the dreaded "dropsy." For those who don't know: Dropsy isn't a disease, it is a symptom of internal organ failure causing fluid retention which forces the scales to stand out. Some sort of bacterial or viral infection causes the organ failure. By the time it gets to the point where the scales "pinecone" it is extremely difficult if not impossible to treat.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > The swelling in the picture looks too broad to be eggs. Don't eggs usually cause a round ball closer to just the stomach area? The swelling in the picture looks like the whole length of the body.....Ginny
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > ________________________________
                      >
                      > > From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anubias Design
                      >
                      > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:17 AM
                      >
                      > > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > > Subject: [anubiasdesign] Possible Disease Help [1 Attachment]
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > [Attachment(s) from Anubias Design included below]
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Hey Gang,
                      >
                      > > I shot this pic at a friend of mine's house yesterday. This is a red line shark approximately 4 - 4.5" in length. Its behavior is absolutely normal. It's active and breathing normally. The eyes and fins look good. My friend said something about it possibly filling up with eggs so I looked at it more closely and it has a number of scales starting to stand away from the body. On first glance, it does appear to be filling up with eggs though I think it's probably way to small to be in breeding condition. The scales around the abdomen make me think there's something more sinister going on internally but the overall behavior of the fish makes me question that. I'd appreciate your thoughts on it.
                      >
                      > > Mark
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Anubias Design
                      >
                      > > "where rare species are common"
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > We are proud to announce the formation of the American Labyrinth Fish Association (ALFA). We are starting out as a Yahoo Group with plans for a website and magazine. Please join us as we endeavor to learn more about these fascinating fish. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanLabyrinthFishAssociation/
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Larry Vires
                      I ve only had a couple of successful cures in my tanks, and only one that was already swollen.  I have a male Hypancistrus contradens that you can literally
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 13 11:13 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I've only had a couple of successful cures in my tanks, and only one that was already swollen.  I have a male Hypancistrus contradens that you can literally see the fluid in his stomach, but has been eating and actually trying to signal a mate.  Kanamycin was the medication used.  If he had already stopped eating, I doubt he would have survived, so early treatment is obviously important in my opinion.

                        While 2-3 ppm isn't that much, and may help if the cause is protozoal, it's not so much an average we have to look at in this instance.  Fishes are adapted to a range of salts in the water.  The kidneys function well within that range.  My concern is that the added salt could stress an already overworked, and potentially failing, renal system even more.  For the same reason, I wouldn't recommend lowering the dissolved solids too quickly either as that should increase the volume passing through the kidneys and still cause undue stress.

                        The renal system basically has to work more to either hold or excrete those salts and maintain equilibrium.  The closer the water is to perfect for the species requirements, the easier it will be to maintain proper osmotic levels.  A change could make it easier, or increase the workload on the organs depending on the starting and finishing levels.  In the case of adding salt, the kidneys have to work harder to remove any excess to their natural requirement.

                        Larry

                        --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Gerald <gbpottern@...> wrote:

                        From: Gerald <gbpottern@...>
                        Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help
                        To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 11:34 PM

                         

                        Larry - I was thinking 2 to 3 mg/l salinity would reduce his osmotic water intake and lessen the burden on the weakened kidney and liver. And since fish blood salinity is around 9 mg/l, that 2 to 3 mg/l in the water would not harm the kidney or liver. Faulty thinking here? If so please correct me.

                        I agree antibiotics can sometimes "cure" bloat/dropsy (on rare occasions). Kanamycin or Minocycline might be worth a try if non-drug approaches are not working and if the cause is bacterial. I've seen bloated fish recover and excrete their excess fluid, but recovery is not common.

                        --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, Larry Vires <pleco_breeder@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I have to agree with most of what Gerald said, with exception to the use of salt.  It isn't always kidney failure that causes it, liver is another common organ to shut-down.  However, using salt to treat would likely only speed up the degeneration of the kidneys if they are the problem.
                        >
                        > I know I'm going to catch flack for the "shotgun approach", but I would likely isolate the fish and treat the food for that tank with a broad spectrum antibiotic.  The fish will likely never completely recover from the excess fluid, pinecone scales, but could still live a reasonably long life.  Even after curing, there is no means for the fluid to be absorbed back into their system to be flushed, but it is possible for the fish to grow enough to not cause so much pressure to be misshapen.
                        >
                        > Larry
                        >
                        > --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Gerald <gbpottern@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: Gerald <gbpottern@...>
                        > Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help
                        > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 1:52 PM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Agree with Ginny - "pinecone" scales suggest that kidney is failing and he/she cannot excrete excess water. Could be a bacterial infection, diet imbalance (herbivore or omnivore eating too much meat), tumor, lots of possibilities. I would move it to a slightly brackish tank (1 to 2 teasp per gal salt) and feed mostly veggies (cooked peas, sweet potato) and a little brine shrimp for a couple weeks and see if that helps.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, <VGRANDINETTI@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > I hope it's eggs but when you look down from the top, do the scales look like a "pinecone" If so, it could be the dreaded "dropsy." For those who don't know: Dropsy isn't a disease, it is a symptom of internal organ failure causing fluid retention which forces the scales to stand out. Some sort of bacterial or viral infection causes the organ failure. By the time it gets to the point where the scales "pinecone" it is extremely difficult if not impossible to treat.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > The swelling in the picture looks too broad to be eggs. Don't eggs usually cause a round ball closer to just the stomach area? The swelling in the picture looks like the whole length of the body.....Ginny
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > ________________________________
                        >
                        > > From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anubias Design
                        >
                        > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:17 AM
                        >
                        > > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > > Subject: [anubiasdesign] Possible Disease Help [1 Attachment]
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > [Attachment(s) from Anubias Design included below]
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Hey Gang,
                        >
                        > > I shot this pic at a friend of mine's house yesterday. This is a red line shark approximately 4 - 4.5" in length. Its behavior is absolutely normal. It's active and breathing normally. The eyes and fins look good. My friend said something about it possibly filling up with eggs so I looked at it more closely and it has a number of scales starting to stand away from the body. On first glance, it does appear to be filling up with eggs though I think it's probably way to small to be in breeding condition. The scales around the abdomen make me think there's something more sinister going on internally but the overall behavior of the fish makes me question that. I'd appreciate your thoughts on it.
                        >
                        > > Mark
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Anubias Design
                        >
                        > > "where rare species are common"
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > We are proud to announce the formation of the American Labyrinth Fish Association (ALFA). We are starting out as a Yahoo Group with plans for a website and magazine. Please join us as we endeavor to learn more about these fascinating fish. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanLabyrinthFishAssociation/
                        >
                        > >
                        >

                      • VGRANDINETTI@NJTRANSIT.COM
                        What about the use of Epson salt? For years I have heard of people that claim success with it. I remain doubtful...Ginny ________________________________ From:
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 14 6:12 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          What about the use of Epson salt? For years I have heard of people that claim success with it. I remain doubtful...Ginny


                          From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Vires
                          Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:14 AM
                          To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help

                           

                          I've only had a couple of successful cures in my tanks, and only one that was already swollen.  I have a male Hypancistrus contradens that you can literally see the fluid in his stomach, but has been eating and actually trying to signal a mate.  Kanamycin was the medication used.  If he had already stopped eating, I doubt he would have survived, so early treatment is obviously important in my opinion.

                          While 2-3 ppm isn't that much, and may help if the cause is protozoal, it's not so much an average we have to look at in this instance.  Fishes are adapted to a range of salts in the water.  The kidneys function well within that range.  My concern is that the added salt could stress an already overworked, and potentially failing, renal system even more.  For the same reason, I wouldn't recommend lowering the dissolved solids too quickly either as that should increase the volume passing through the kidneys and still cause undue stress.

                          The renal system basically has to work more to either hold or excrete those salts and maintain equilibrium.  The closer the water is to perfect for the species requirements, the easier it will be to maintain proper osmotic levels.  A change could make it easier, or increase the workload on the organs depending on the starting and finishing levels.  In the case of adding salt, the kidneys have to work harder to remove any excess to their natural requirement.

                          Larry

                          --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Gerald <gbpottern@...> wrote:

                          From: Gerald <gbpottern@...>
                          Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help
                          To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 11:34 PM

                           

                          Larry - I was thinking 2 to 3 mg/l salinity would reduce his osmotic water intake and lessen the burden on the weakened kidney and liver. And since fish blood salinity is around 9 mg/l, that 2 to 3 mg/l in the water would not harm the kidney or liver. Faulty thinking here? If so please correct me.

                          I agree antibiotics can sometimes "cure" bloat/dropsy (on rare occasions). Kanamycin or Minocycline might be worth a try if non-drug approaches are not working and if the cause is bacterial. I've seen bloated fish recover and excrete their excess fluid, but recovery is not common.

                          --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, Larry Vires <pleco_breeder@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I have to agree with most of what Gerald said, with exception to the use of salt.  It isn't always kidney failure that causes it, liver is another common organ to shut-down.  However, using salt to treat would likely only speed up the degeneration of the kidneys if they are the problem.
                          >
                          > I know I'm going to catch flack for the "shotgun approach", but I would likely isolate the fish and treat the food for that tank with a broad spectrum antibiotic.  The fish will likely never completely recover from the excess fluid, pinecone scales, but could still live a reasonably long life.  Even after curing, there is no means for the fluid to be absorbed back into their system to be flushed, but it is possible for the fish to grow enough to not cause so much pressure to be misshapen.
                          >
                          > Larry
                          >
                          > --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Gerald <gbpottern@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > From: Gerald <gbpottern@...>
                          > Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help
                          > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 1:52 PM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Agree with Ginny - "pinecone" scales suggest that kidney is failing and he/she cannot excrete excess water. Could be a bacterial infection, diet imbalance (herbivore or omnivore eating too much meat), tumor, lots of possibilities. I would move it to a slightly brackish tank (1 to 2 teasp per gal salt) and feed mostly veggies (cooked peas, sweet potato) and a little brine shrimp for a couple weeks and see if that helps.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, <VGRANDINETTI@> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > I hope it's eggs but when you look down from the top, do the scales look like a "pinecone" If so, it could be the dreaded "dropsy." For those who don't know: Dropsy isn't a disease, it is a symptom of internal organ failure causing fluid retention which forces the scales to stand out. Some sort of bacterial or viral infection causes the organ failure. By the time it gets to the point where the scales "pinecone" it is extremely difficult if not impossible to treat.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > The swelling in the picture looks too broad to be eggs. Don't eggs usually cause a round ball closer to just the stomach area? The swelling in the picture looks like the whole length of the body.....Ginny
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > ________________________________
                          >
                          > > From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anubias Design
                          >
                          > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:17 AM
                          >
                          > > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > > Subject: [anubiasdesign] Possible Disease Help [1 Attachment]
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > [Attachment(s) from Anubias Design included below]
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Hey Gang,
                          >
                          > > I shot this pic at a friend of mine's house yesterday. This is a red line shark approximately 4 - 4.5" in length. Its behavior is absolutely normal. It's active and breathing normally. The eyes and fins look good. My friend said something about it possibly filling up with eggs so I looked at it more closely and it has a number of scales starting to stand away from the body. On first glance, it does appear to be filling up with eggs though I think it's probably way to small to be in breeding condition. The scales around the abdomen make me think there's something more sinister going on internally but the overall behavior of the fish makes me question that. I'd appreciate your thoughts on it.
                          >
                          > > Mark
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Anubias Design
                          >
                          > > "where rare species are common"
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > We are proud to announce the formation of the American Labyrinth Fish Association (ALFA). We are starting out as a Yahoo Group with plans for a website and magazine. Please join us as we endeavor to learn more about these fascinating fish. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanLabyrinthFishAssociation/
                          >
                          > >
                          >

                        • Jackie Clark
                          Call it old school, call it habit, or call it anything you like but when I started keeping fish in the late 60 s-early 70- s, I was taught to put a little
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 14 6:26 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Call it "old school," call it habit, or call it anything you like but when I started keeping fish in the late 60's-early 70-'s, I was taught to put a little salt, a little Epsom salt and dechlorinator in my tanks for water changes.  Does it help?  I don't know...but I don't ever remember having dropsy or bloat.  I've modernized considerably since then but still use a litle salt and Epsom salts.
                            Keep fishin'
                            Jackie

                            From: "VGRANDINETTI@..." <VGRANDINETTI@...>
                            To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 8:12 AM
                            Subject: RE: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help
                             
                            What about the use of Epson salt? For years I have heard of people that claim success with it. I remain doubtful...Ginny
                            From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Vires
                            Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:14 AM
                            To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help
                             
                            I've only had a couple of successful cures in my tanks, and only one that was already swollen.  I have a male Hypancistrus contradens that you can literally see the fluid in his stomach, but has been eating and actually trying to signal a mate.  Kanamycin was the medication used.  If he had already stopped eating, I doubt he would have survived, so early treatment is obviously important in my opinion.

                            While 2-3 ppm isn't that much, and may help if the cause is protozoal, it's not so much an average we have to look at in this instance.  Fishes are adapted to a range of salts in the water.  The kidneys function well within that range.  My concern is that the added salt could stress an already overworked, and potentially failing, renal system even more.  For the same reason, I wouldn't recommend lowering the dissolved solids too quickly either as that should increase the volume passing through the kidneys and still cause undue stress.

                            The renal system basically has to work more to either hold or excrete those salts and maintain equilibrium.  The closer the water is to perfect for the species requirements, the easier it will be to maintain proper osmotic levels.  A change could make it easier, or increase the workload on the organs depending on the starting and finishing levels.  In the case of adding salt, the kidneys have to work harder to remove any excess to their natural requirement.

                            Larry

                            --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Gerald <gbpottern@...> wrote:

                            From: Gerald <gbpottern@...>
                            Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help
                            To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 11:34 PM

                             
                            Larry - I was thinking 2 to 3 mg/l salinity would reduce his osmotic water intake and lessen the burden on the weakened kidney and liver. And since fish blood salinity is around 9 mg/l, that 2 to 3 mg/l in the water would not harm the kidney or liver. Faulty thinking here? If so please correct me.

                            I agree antibiotics can sometimes "cure" bloat/dropsy (on rare occasions). Kanamycin or Minocycline might be worth a try if non-drug approaches are not working and if the cause is bacterial. I've seen bloated fish recover and excrete their excess fluid, but recovery is not common.

                            --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, Larry Vires <pleco_breeder@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I have to agree with most of what Gerald said, with exception to the use of salt.  It isn't always kidney failure that causes it, liver is another common organ to shut-down.  However, using salt to treat would likely only speed up the degeneration of the kidneys if they are the problem.
                            >
                            > I know I'm going to catch flack for the "shotgun approach", but I would likely isolate the fish and treat the food for that tank with a broad spectrum antibiotic.  The fish will likely never completely recover from the excess fluid, pinecone scales, but could still live a reasonably long life.  Even after curing, there is no means for the fluid to be absorbed back into their system to be flushed, but it is possible for the fish to grow enough to not cause so much pressure to be misshapen.
                            >
                            > Larry
                            >
                            > --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Gerald <gbpottern@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > From: Gerald <gbpottern@...>
                            > Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help
                            > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 1:52 PM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Agree with Ginny - "pinecone" scales suggest that kidney is failing and he/she cannot excrete excess water. Could be a bacterial infection, diet imbalance (herbivore or omnivore eating too much meat), tumor, lots of possibilities. I would move it to a slightly brackish tank (1 to 2 teasp per gal salt) and feed mostly veggies (cooked peas, sweet potato) and a little brine shrimp for a couple weeks and see if that helps.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, <VGRANDINETTI@> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > I hope it's eggs but when you look down from the top, do the scales look like a "pinecone" If so, it could be the dreaded "dropsy." For those who don't know: Dropsy isn't a disease, it is a symptom of internal organ failure causing fluid retention which forces the scales to stand out. Some sort of bacterial or viral infection causes the organ failure. By the time it gets to the point where the scales "pinecone" it is extremely difficult if not impossible to treat.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > The swelling in the picture looks too broad to be eggs. Don't eggs usually cause a round ball closer to just the stomach area? The swelling in the picture looks like the whole length of the body.....Ginny
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > ________________________________
                            >
                            > > From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anubias Design
                            >
                            > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:17 AM
                            >
                            > > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > > Subject: [anubiasdesign] Possible Disease Help [1 Attachment]
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > [Attachment(s) from Anubias Design included below]
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > Hey Gang,
                            >
                            > > I shot this pic at a friend of mine's house yesterday. This is a red line shark approximately 4 - 4.5" in length. Its behavior is absolutely normal. It's active and breathing normally. The eyes and fins look good. My friend said something about it possibly filling up with eggs so I looked at it more closely and it has a number of scales starting to stand away from the body. On first glance, it does appear to be filling up with eggs though I think it's probably way to small to be in breeding condition. The scales around the abdomen make me think there's something more sinister going on internally but the overall behavior of the fish makes me question that. I'd appreciate your thoughts on it.
                            >
                            > > Mark
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > Anubias Design
                            >
                            > > "where rare species are common"
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > We are proud to announce the formation of the American Labyrinth Fish Association (ALFA). We are starting out as a Yahoo Group with plans for a website and magazine. Please join us as we endeavor to learn more about these fascinating fish. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanLabyrinthFishAssociation/
                            >
                            > >
                            >

                          • Larry Vires
                            My understanding, and this is strictly based on what I ve been told by other old-timers, is the salt is simply used to cause the fish to change the osmotic
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 14 7:18 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              My understanding, and this is strictly based on what I've been told by other old-timers, is the salt is simply used to cause the fish to change the osmotic balance.  This has a couple of side effects that can be useful in treating disease, increased slime coat and the kidneys flushing more water through the system to remove toxins produced by bacteria and other nasties.

                              In some instances, particularly Oodinium, the protozoa/parasite/bacteria is unable to adapt to the higher solids and is killed.  There are even a couple of protozoa I know of that are specifically limited by sodium and magnesium.  In those instances, salt or epsom can reasonably be used as a medication without stressing the host beyond their threshold.

                              In the case of this roseline, where the kidneys are already overworked at the least, trying to flush the ascitic fluid from the fish, and possible partial organ failure from whatever pathogen, I can't bring myself to recommend salt.

                              With all of this in mind, I should also add that there are reasonable uses for salt in freshwater tanks.  I just picked up a pair of Notho rachovi at auction this weekend, and am adding salt to their water based on the breeders comments about the species being prone to Oodinium.  I haven't had a problem with the disease in years without using salt, but have read about the problems with killies and velvet.  As a preventative, with healthy fish, it's actually much safer than the malachite/formalin mixture I would likely end up having to use later provided those sources, whom have a lot more experience with Nothos than I do, are correct.

                              Larry

                              --- On Wed, 3/14/12, Jackie Clark <tctfsfishlady@...> wrote:

                              From: Jackie Clark <tctfsfishlady@...>
                              Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help
                              To: "anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com" <anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com>
                              Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2012, 1:26 PM

                               

                              Call it "old school," call it habit, or call it anything you like but when I started keeping fish in the late 60's-early 70-'s, I was taught to put a little salt, a little Epsom salt and dechlorinator in my tanks for water changes.  Does it help?  I don't know...but I don't ever remember having dropsy or bloat.  I've modernized considerably since then but still use a litle salt and Epsom salts.
                              Keep fishin'
                              Jackie

                              From: "VGRANDINETTI@..." <VGRANDINETTI@...>
                              To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 8:12 AM
                              Subject: RE: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help
                               
                              What about the use of Epson salt? For years I have heard of people that claim success with it. I remain doubtful...Ginny
                              From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Vires
                              Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:14 AM
                              To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help
                               
                              I've only had a couple of successful cures in my tanks, and only one that was already swollen.  I have a male Hypancistrus contradens that you can literally see the fluid in his stomach, but has been eating and actually trying to signal a mate.  Kanamycin was the medication used.  If he had already stopped eating, I doubt he would have survived, so early treatment is obviously important in my opinion.

                              While 2-3 ppm isn't that much, and may help if the cause is protozoal, it's not so much an average we have to look at in this instance.  Fishes are adapted to a range of salts in the water.  The kidneys function well within that range.  My concern is that the added salt could stress an already overworked, and potentially failing, renal system even more.  For the same reason, I wouldn't recommend lowering the dissolved solids too quickly either as that should increase the volume passing through the kidneys and still cause undue stress.

                              The renal system basically has to work more to either hold or excrete those salts and maintain equilibrium.  The closer the water is to perfect for the species requirements, the easier it will be to maintain proper osmotic levels.  A change could make it easier, or increase the workload on the organs depending on the starting and finishing levels.  In the case of adding salt, the kidneys have to work harder to remove any excess to their natural requirement.

                              Larry

                              --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Gerald <gbpottern@...> wrote:

                              From: Gerald <gbpottern@...>
                              Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help
                              To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 11:34 PM

                               
                              Larry - I was thinking 2 to 3 mg/l salinity would reduce his osmotic water intake and lessen the burden on the weakened kidney and liver. And since fish blood salinity is around 9 mg/l, that 2 to 3 mg/l in the water would not harm the kidney or liver. Faulty thinking here? If so please correct me.

                              I agree antibiotics can sometimes "cure" bloat/dropsy (on rare occasions). Kanamycin or Minocycline might be worth a try if non-drug approaches are not working and if the cause is bacterial. I've seen bloated fish recover and excrete their excess fluid, but recovery is not common.

                              --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, Larry Vires <pleco_breeder@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I have to agree with most of what Gerald said, with exception to the use of salt.  It isn't always kidney failure that causes it, liver is another common organ to shut-down.  However, using salt to treat would likely only speed up the degeneration of the kidneys if they are the problem.
                              >
                              > I know I'm going to catch flack for the "shotgun approach", but I would likely isolate the fish and treat the food for that tank with a broad spectrum antibiotic.  The fish will likely never completely recover from the excess fluid, pinecone scales, but could still live a reasonably long life.  Even after curing, there is no means for the fluid to be absorbed back into their system to be flushed, but it is possible for the fish to grow enough to not cause so much pressure to be misshapen.
                              >
                              > Larry
                              >
                              > --- On Tue, 3/13/12, Gerald <gbpottern@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > From: Gerald <gbpottern@...>
                              > Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Possible Disease Help
                              > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 1:52 PM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Agree with Ginny - "pinecone" scales suggest that kidney is failing and he/she cannot excrete excess water. Could be a bacterial infection, diet imbalance (herbivore or omnivore eating too much meat), tumor, lots of possibilities. I would move it to a slightly brackish tank (1 to 2 teasp per gal salt) and feed mostly veggies (cooked peas, sweet potato) and a little brine shrimp for a couple weeks and see if that helps.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, <VGRANDINETTI@> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > I hope it's eggs but when you look down from the top, do the scales look like a "pinecone" If so, it could be the dreaded "dropsy." For those who don't know: Dropsy isn't a disease, it is a symptom of internal organ failure causing fluid retention which forces the scales to stand out. Some sort of bacterial or viral infection causes the organ failure. By the time it gets to the point where the scales "pinecone" it is extremely difficult if not impossible to treat.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > The swelling in the picture looks too broad to be eggs. Don't eggs usually cause a round ball closer to just the stomach area? The swelling in the picture looks like the whole length of the body.....Ginny
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > ________________________________
                              >
                              > > From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anubias Design
                              >
                              > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:17 AM
                              >
                              > > To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > > Subject: [anubiasdesign] Possible Disease Help [1 Attachment]
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > [Attachment(s) from Anubias Design included below]
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Hey Gang,
                              >
                              > > I shot this pic at a friend of mine's house yesterday. This is a red line shark approximately 4 - 4.5" in length. Its behavior is absolutely normal. It's active and breathing normally. The eyes and fins look good. My friend said something about it possibly filling up with eggs so I looked at it more closely and it has a number of scales starting to stand away from the body. On first glance, it does appear to be filling up with eggs though I think it's probably way to small to be in breeding condition. The scales around the abdomen make me think there's something more sinister going on internally but the overall behavior of the fish makes me question that. I'd appreciate your thoughts on it.
                              >
                              > > Mark
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Anubias Design
                              >
                              > > "where rare species are common"
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > We are proud to announce the formation of the American Labyrinth Fish Association (ALFA). We are starting out as a Yahoo Group with plans for a website and magazine. Please join us as we endeavor to learn more about these fascinating fish. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanLabyrinthFishAssociation/
                              >
                              > >
                              >

                            • plantsrocksandfish
                              ... salt... to use salt or not to. Everyone is going to have their own opinions. I don t know where I stand. Years ago I purchased some great sword tails but
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 14 12:40 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, <VGRANDINETTI@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > What about the use of Epson salt? For years I have heard of people that claim success with it. I remain doubtful...Ginny
                                >
                                > ________________________________

                                salt... to use salt or not to. Everyone is going to have their own opinions. I don't know where I stand.
                                Years ago I purchased some great sword tails but I could not keep them alive. I found out the pet store was using salt and then I did. No problem keeping them after that. I could ween them off but it took time.
                                later I was into killies. I started to have all sort of nasties. I found that was not the fish but my aquarium cleanliness. When I siphoned off the mulm and made regular water changes I did not have a problem. I also found salt allowed me to slip. I could be careless and let things slide.
                                I don't think the salt was best for the fish but a clean tank and a little salt might be good. George
                              • Gerald
                                Thanks Larry - I was under the impression that fish in freshwater (unlike saltwater fish and land animals) never have to work at excreting salt ions, since
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 14 4:10 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thanks Larry - I was under the impression that fish in freshwater (unlike saltwater fish and land animals) never have to "work" at excreting salt ions, since they are constantly losing ions to osmosis at the gills, and that the kidney's job is to excrete water while retaining ions as much as it can. I guess like many things, the simple explanation is not always correct or complete.

                                  If the gills of an obligate low-conductivity fish are hard-wired to keep uptaking salt ions even when those ions are plentiful, and the kidney/liver are hard-wired to NOT excrete them, then yeah I guess salt could be harmful even at 2 ppt, far less than their body salinity. Never kept Denison Barbs myself, but I would have guessed they are probably not in the obligate low-conductivity camp, but are like most other minnows that can adjust their ion uptake and excretion rates to some extent according to ion abundance in their water and food. Anyway, thats why I thought salt might help against bloating.

                                  The "recoveries" from bloat/dropsy that I have seen have been in cichlids, badis, tetras and minnows. I suspect one reason we hardly ever see Loricariid or Corydoras catfish "recover" is that fluid retention is harder to see in their rigid bodies until the organ damage is really severe.


                                  --- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, Larry Vires <pleco_breeder@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  My concern is that the added salt could stress an already overworked, and potentially failing, renal system even more.... The renal system basically has to work more to either hold or excrete those salts and maintain equilibrium. .... The closer the water is to perfect for the species requirements, the easier it will be to maintain proper osmotic levels. A change could make it easier, or increase the workload on the organs depending on the starting and finishing levels. In the case of adding salt, the kidneys have to work harder to remove any excess to their natural requirement.
                                  >
                                  > Larry
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