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Re: Question about Bruckner..

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  • david2coleman
    Thank you everybody for your comments. I guess it clears a lot of queries up about the man. I now have a more realistic picture of how this man was. That he
    Message 1 of 16 , May 1, 2008
      Thank you everybody for your comments. I guess it clears a lot of
      queries up about the man. I now have a more realistic picture of how
      this man was. That he was not some kind of eccentric oddity that was a
      religious fanatic from the countryside, and had few social skills.
      Even so, he is fascinating to study..


    • Siggy
      David, Possibly you may be right. No matter, Bruckner had an amazing mind and is to create such fine musical visions would indicate he was far from normal .
      Message 2 of 16 , May 1, 2008

        Possibly you may be right. No matter, Bruckner had an amazing mind
        and is to create such fine musical visions would indicate he was far
        from "normal". I think the whole topic of Bruckner to be a
        fascinating case study that has never been studied. I wonder if
        there are any psychiartrists amongst the membership that could give
        their professional opinion on Bruckner?


        --- In antonbrucknerclub@yahoogroups.com, Brendan O'Connell
        <rumbles32001@...> wrote:
        > Siggy please may I say a few words
        > Not sure if you recall a previous suggestion of mine
        > that Bruckner oft quoted tics were not tics at all.
        > they a perfectly consistent with indications of a
        > variation of autism.
        > > David,
        > >
      • Siggy
        Thankyou Gert. I feel it is long overdue that there was proper analysis of Bruckner. For too long there are far too many stories of the man and his supposed
        Message 3 of 16 , May 1, 2008
          Thankyou Gert.

          I feel it is long overdue that there was proper analysis of
          Bruckner. For too long there are far too many stories of the man and
          his supposed eccentricities. Often the anecdotes are taken out-of-
          context to proove him as an oddity whereas I find the more I study
          him, the more I find quite the opposite. For example, it often
          regarded that Bruckner is timid or unsure. Certainly Bruckner was
          careful to follow rules but listen to the opening passage of the last
          movement of his 8th symphony - that is bold and confident. Also note
          how Bruckner was careful to provide for himself a pension at an early
          age. I find that Bruckner was fully aware that his music was very
          different and to that end watchful of any suggessions as I am sure he
          was fully aware of his calling and he was writing "for a later
          time". Too much is made of his drerss sense. I do not think it is
          because he was odd, rather that vanity and fashion had no interest to
          him as opposed to his being "unaware". It is because he not
          understood that he became labelled as "odd" rather than because he
          was odd. It can also be argued where would Bruckner have found the
          time to follow current whims and fancies bearing in mind his
          collossal working hours outside of composing music.


          --- In antonbrucknerclub@yahoogroups.com, "Gert Van Gelder"
          <gertvangelder@...> wrote:
          > dear Siggy,
          > you have an interesting view about Anton Bruckner 'feeling a morbid
          need to see dead people' ( as Georg Tintner once put it in a very
          interesting lecture of his ). yes I reckon this was his way of coming
          to terms with a reality he needed as a human being and as an artist.
          as thus we might recognise a purity in Bruckner's mindset.
          > he honoured Beethoven and Schubert in his own works. Bruckner also
          showed up the moment the remains of both composers were brought to
          the surface in order to be replaced to another graveyard. we know the
          story on how Bruckner took the skull of Beethoven in his hands and
          spoke to him. Anton Bruckner simply staying at home while knowing
          this occasion takes place at the cemetery was simply no option. he
          had to be there ...
          > Gert
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Siggy
          > To: antonbrucknerclub@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 11:35 PM
          > Subject: [Y! Bruckner] Re: Question about Bruckner..
          > David,
          > There are two Bruckners. One is the man, the other the composer.
          > believe that the well-documented observations about such trivia
          > Bruckner`s dress-sense, etc only go to highlight how little is
          > understood of Bruckner the composer. As already mentioned in
          > response to your question, the overwhelming urge to compose
          > symphonies was his calling to such extent that questions of what
          > wear were totally irrelevant and would have done little to aid
          > compulsion to create music.
          > I believe that within the sympohonies there is a message about
          > not just Bruckner`s own but on a much grander scale, I think
          > was trying to explain the meaning of life. I can hear within the
          > symphonies some of Bruckner`s own experiences, for example
          > no.2 portrays his time in London, symphony no. 7 deals with
          > in the Vienna Theatre and Wagner`s death. These symphonies are
          > however not just an account of Bruckner`s life but tackle far
          > worldly issues and certainly the Finale of symphony 9 is more to
          > with enering the next world.
          > It is often said that Bruckner had a fascination with death. That
          > not so strange when you consider how many on-lookers there are at
          > road traffic accident. Where Bruckner differs is that I feel his
          > fascination has more to do with his religious beliefs and that to
          > Bruckner maybe death was but a gateway into which he would meet
          > God and so I can relate to his desire to see dead bodies as a way
          > trying to see into this next world. Maybe I would even dare to
          > suggest that through such observations did Bruckner formulate
          some of
          > his 9th Symphony material.
          > Another aspect often highlighted is Bruckner`s counting
          > Again I do not believe this is so strange as has been documented
          > rather it has more to do with the artist working out compositions
          > more in connection to his improvisations than to a mental illness.
          > Yes Bruckner is still misunderstood but for the wrong reasons.
          > question is not that Bruckner was strange but rather it is a sad
          > reflection of our ignorance of how the mind of a genius works.
          > Further I have said it on this forum before and I will reiterate -

          > Bruckner has many positive qualities that we should all look
          > his devotion, his boundless energy and desire to stay true to his
          > calling, his honesty and his ability to write music for a future
          > when it will be understood. If only more people shared such
          > qualities then perhaps we would all benefit and live in a more
          > peaceful and less hostile world.
          > Please note that these are only my personal opinions on Bruckner
          > I hope it will help you to see Bruckner in a different light. No
          > matter, one thing is sure - his music is so wonderful.
          > Regards
          > Siggy
          > --------------------------------------------------------------------
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG.
          > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1398 - Release Date:
          25-4-2008 14:31
        • jklasins2002
          Dear David, Thanks for stimulating such a worthy discourse, which has branched off into many facets concerning this man whom we all have devoted much time to.
          Message 4 of 16 , May 2, 2008
            Dear David,

            Thanks for stimulating such a worthy discourse, which has branched off
            into many facets concerning this man whom we all have devoted much
            time to.
            Awhile ago (mainly late July-early September) I had posted much
            regarding Bruckner the man and composer, as well as music. Perhaps you
            may find some of the topics relate to your inquiry.

            It is nice to think about why Bruckner did not do such things, but to
            think about why he did what has been done, and all he did leave us may
            be even more useful.

            Bruckner was a devout Christian, living his life as a follower of
            Christ and having the Word of God as a "light unto his path". This
            cannot be separated from his actions and music. It is difficult
            today, when there is so much secularism, and so much of the work of
            men's hands today in the world, to understand this. And even more
            difficult if one does not know personally a Christian. Bruckner was
            unique, in fact we are all unique, gifted? very. But still a man as
            all of us, his works only attest to the fact that here is a man in
            history whose life was devoted to a purpose which happened to be
            music, and whose music was meant to reach many people for many years.
            We are not all first-rate composers or great writers or popular
            statesman. But let us not forget that we all experience life on
            life's terms and face together and much similarly what many call "the
            human condition"; and that if one man is elevated to the status of
            genius or "celebrity" it is mainly due to the fact that his/her life
            was broadcasted for whatever reason to a wider audience.

            Perhaps to look at this person as a servant of men is useful.

            A great man said this after washing the feet of his friends and
            followers, "If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye
            also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an
            example, that ye should do as I have done to you "John 13:14-15,
            Bruckner was quite familiar with the author of these words, Jesus Christ.

            Bruckner and his mode of social life, dress mannerisms, etc. is
            fascinating to look at, yet of course not to be overemphasized, in
            light of Bruckner's heart, mind (reason), and yearnings of his soul.
            For this we have his music, writings, and personal events of his life.

            A nice proverb begins this next discussion, "The fear of the Lord is
            the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility"Proverbs 15:33.

            Humility, yet not ignorance, humility yet not foolishness, humility
            yet strength. We honour this man today, while in his own time he was
            often laughed at. For is not humility in the mind of the worldly man
            often a sign of weakness of ignorance. No, as many here have stated
            there was much intelligence here, astuteness, naivety perhaps but with
            a purpose and always for a reason. We too often have the view that
            Christians are simple minded followers of the herd, unable to think
            for themselves. How different in Anton's case! How different in a
            Christian such as C.S. Lewis's case, "Mere Christianity" a book by
            this worthy Christian man, a case in point.

            That he was very different from the Viennese world around him is no
            surprise, that he could relate to children, young students, brahms as
            well as Wagner, is also perfectly in harmony with his Christian faith.
            Well perhaps his relations with women are another story...lol, and
            certainly the writer of the great 5th does not sound like the writer
            of a letter to the Emperor pleading safety from the darts of Hanslick.
            Well as said before Anton was not perfect, Anton was a human being.
            But it was a work in progress for Anton, as his music often was.

            Bruckner thought opera too worldly, did not pay much attention to the
            fashion sense. Drama, politics, vanity of speech and boastings, the
            often heady works of his contemporaries, those lovers of pleasures
            more than lovers of God, all this was not at the fore of Bruckner's
            life as man nor composer. From this we can think oh, then here you
            paint the picture of a saint,all works and no grace, a man out of
            touch with everyday life, a great composer yet maybe not all there in
            his head. Hardly, for he enjoyed beer, good food, lived amongst
            Christians as well as unbelievers, often strove to be established
            financially, these things do not condemn the Christian, rather by
            faith and grace we are saved. Bruckner instead was a flawed human
            being, with one great difference!

            "If any man be in Christ he is a new creature, old things are passed
            away, behold all things are become new."

            And his actions prove the great Christian principle which I sincerely
            hope is not misunderstood, it merely states where Anton's priority and
            hope and faith and yearing of the soul was and where it was not,

            "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any
            man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that
            is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and
            the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the
            world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will
            of God abideth for ever." I John 2:15-17

            Lastly, and in the hopes that I have not pushed the limits too far, is
            Bruckner's dedication to his music. So admirable! Indeed a Christian
            virtue, to be a good steward of what is given to you, to be faithful
            and dedicated to a calling.

            The symphonies and sacred music so much a part of his life, and maybe
            this is because Bruckner either intuitively or through much reflection
            or through a natural desire, undestood this was to be his message,
            life's work. This again is in perfect relation to Bruckner the
            Christian man. Anton taking to heart the parable of Christ's.

            "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country,
            who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
            And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another
            one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway
            took his journey.
            Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the
            same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had
            received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one
            went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. After a long
            time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
            And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five
            talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold,
            I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him,
            Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithfull
            over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou
            into the joy of thy lord." And the same for the man with two talents ,
            yet not for the man who hid his one talent. Matt 25: 14-26

            Did not Bruckner invest his time in music theory, in making music to
            praise God, in making symphonies which spoke so truly, deeply,
            lovingly, and hopefully, in working on revisions so that the music
            would reach as many ears as possible? Are these not signs of a
            faithful servant of God,a faithful and persevering laborer for the
            kingdom of his Lord? His life lived after the example of his dear Lord
            Jesus? His message of faith, hope, and love, broadcast near, far and
            wide, hushed and loudly, given to his fellow human beings.

            Sincerely and best wishes to all,

            --- In antonbrucknerclub@yahoogroups.com, "david2coleman"
            <mr_coleman@...> wrote:
            > Dear All,
            > I don't write too much on this forum because I cannot devote my
            > attention wholeahartedly to it, so I tend to dip in and out of it
            > spasmodically.
            > But, just for a bit of fun, I have a rather speculative question for
            > folk regarding the great man...
            > We all know and love Bruckners Symphonies and his large body of
            > shorter church and sacred music etc.
            > But have you ever wondered why he didn't branch into other genre such
            > as Opera, Oratorio, Concerti etc.
            > We know about his modest output of Chamber Music and Piano pieces,
            > but do people think that he did not have the creative flexibility to
            > write in other ways? was his whole powers devoted into writing
            > symphonic works and nothing else as a kind of calling?
            > Thinking about this, why do people think he didn't write too much for
            > the organ as he was supposedly one of the leading exponents on the
            > instrument??
            > Would love to hear your comments...
            > Regds,
            > David...
          • david2coleman
            Wow! Josh. Thanks for that comprehensive statement. Couldn t have put it better myself..;o)))) Regds David...
            Message 5 of 16 , May 2, 2008
              Wow! Josh. Thanks for that comprehensive statement. Couldn't have put
              it better myself..;o))))


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