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Jung an idiot? or a rapist?

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  • algorithmyst
    Hello Citizens, I just spot this thread s title in my front page. I couldn t believe my eyes. What I can say about it, is that I wish, from the deep of my
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 26, 2004
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      Hello Citizens,

      I just spot this thread's title in my front page. I couldn't
      believe my eyes.
      What I can say about it, is that I wish, from the deep of my heart,
      I were as stupid as Jung. Or Kant. Pick your choice.

      I don't know at what point is that discussion about rapists, I
      need to read those messages so I won't repeat something already
      said.
      I couldn't put of with the 300+ messages in these last days, and
      if I try to do it now, I won't have any time to write anything.

      This subject of human sexuality and its bestial forms was extendedly
      treated by Jacques Lacan. I haven't opportunity to write a long
      dissertation in this or any other subject now, since "The
      Inquisition is a show that's here to stay" (Mel Brooks).

      What I can add now is, according to Lacan, the primary books for
      this subject are : "America", by Franz Kafka, (it doesn't sound
      like, but it is) and "Story of O", by Pauline Reage, which is the
      most disgusting book I ever read, and shows a vision of female
      sexuality completely bestialized, very similar to what is supposed
      to be a rapist understanding of it (very well exemplified on
      Steve's first post on the subject).
      This book is rated RRR+ and it's not recommended for sensible
      souls.
      It makes Sade look like an innocent sheep.
      Therefore, unless you're highly interested on how rapists see
      their victims, stay solely with America.

      Saudades,
      Simone. :o)
    • Mike Helsher
      ... Hi Simone, Someone once said to me: if I were you, and you were me, what a funny world this would be. I can t find this thread title anywhere on this
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 26, 2004
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        >
        > Hello Citizens,
        >
        > I just spot this thread's title in my front page. I couldn't
        > believe my eyes.
        > What I can say about it, is that I wish, from the deep of my heart,
        > I were as stupid as Jung. Or Kant. Pick your choice.


        Hi Simone,

        Someone once said to me: "if I were you, and you were me, what a funny world
        this would be."

        I can't find this thread title anywhere on this list. Did you make it ?

        Mike
      • algorithmyst
        ... funny world this would be. ... it ? ... Hi Mike, John Lennon once said to us: I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together ... No, you re
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 27, 2004
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          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Helsher"
          <mhelsher@m...> wrote:

          > Hi Simone,
          >
          > Someone once said to me: "if I were you, and you were me, what a
          funny world this would be."
          >
          > I can't find this thread title anywhere on this list. Did you make
          it ?
          >
          > Mike

          Hi Mike,

          John Lennon once said to us: "I am he as you are he as you are me
          and we are all together"...

          No, you're right, the original threat title, which catch my
          attention, was "Jung an idiot? or a bridge?".
          I guess you think he's a bridge and that's fine.
          I just changed it to rapist since I wanted to say something in the
          subject.
          Moreover,I think that call Jung an idiot is as much absurd as call
          him a rapist (my very personal opinion)

          Take it easy,:o)
          Simone.
        • earlyfire@earthlink.net
          One of the essential keystones of Jung s revelatory-based psychoanalytical path was in his insistance of encountering and striving to transform what he called
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 27, 2004
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            One of the essential keystones of Jung's revelatory-based psychoanalytical path was in his insistance of encountering and striving to transform what he called the Double, the unassimilated brute civilization comprised of skeletons dwelling in ones own underground, in one's etheric closet, which project demonic torque into one's life and often and continue to remain tragically undiscovered, unable to blend into the Higher, into the lyric Christ-light of soft compassion and bladed Michaelically Excalibur'd clarity of illumined consciousness.

            At the same time one reads in Steiner's "Nature Spirits" that the task of the fifth post-atlantean age is to discern and surmount Evil. So when the Elizabethan Bard says, "Nothing is evil but that thought makes it so", and Steiner, comparing the manifestations of white and black magic, as for example to offer phenomenologically graphic imagery, the malice of the black occult lodges with the miraculous manifestations of the Saints, it is discovered that intent to conquer and coerce vs. the intent to welcome and include, form the basis for the evolution and the perfection of a moral order which will blossom in the 6th era, the Slavic Root Race, whose geographical epicenter, will emerge in Holy Russia, and whose real center will temple itself in the sanctuary of those who master maintaining reverence and courage in battle, this being the Manichean secret of how to create an initiation where ones's coal to diamond morphs within human space. But we get ahead of ourselves.

            Now it is a known fact that Steiner openly sought out dialogue with C.G. Jung though Jung seems to have refused him the honor of a meeting. This clash, this either/or scaffolding by which Steiner, who wished to supply the greatest and most comprehensive and worthy phenomenologist of - how to say it - - - "Matters and Ethers Archetypal" since Goethe. with esoteric, clairvoyantly evolved rungs and octaves of awareness, which would have linked serendipitously to the greatest Sorcerial Psychologist of his time, tells a tale that the reconcilation of the Empirical and the Intuitive Streams of consciousness, is still in embryo.

            It is ironic that neither of these evolved souls ever came across the Bahai principle "The Agreement of Science and Religion", which we can rephrase as the Dialogue between the Inventive and Revelatory streams. This tale of the bringing out in the open the workings of Evil, and lifting it from its dark and clandestine smoke-filled rooms of the psyche into Noon, the eclipse of the Lunar by the Solar, the transformation of driving ambition into the release of aspiration, presents to those who wish to enbrace Michaelic Climb, the task of creating the bridge between the World realm of dream and the bedrocked earth, and of our role to harbor within our every each of us, the One ever willing to be crucified. For when magic suffers, Love is born.

            But, like titration, the Alchemy of the New Paradigm has to do the very crux of the dialogue now embracing the world in the outer garb of this third reborn Crusade. So we picture it briefly thus:

            The reverence-based, ritual-robust, holiness and inspiration-sparked communities of ancient Islamic ambience, frought with passion and heat and zeal, as over and against the chilled, cool scientific technological and manipulative, tool-obsessed agendas born out of Western man's distance from the honor participating in a Living Presence of Divinity, and in its stead, seeking endless domination and triumph against what his unenlightened "Fall of Man" world-view regards as an advarsarial world.

            Therefore I was not surprised to discover what Steiner meant when he says in "The Temple Legend" that the time for the reconciliation of the Cain and Abel Streams is not yet at hand.

            And at the place where the great spiritual techtonic plates of these two views clash up with great pressure, Israel and Russia forge a New Jerusalem, on in which the Alchemical Marraige of the Opposites, of Acquiescence and Initiative, share equal audience in human hearts...

            Therefore, it is up to us to create the bridge, or at least to inlay a few more rungs in that frail ropeladder, across the gulf which separates the scientific from the mystical, the waves and the particles into which they clothe themselves to sense. And finally, to the extent we attempt such climb, we invite the maturation of genius, and to the extent to which we hold back, we ourselves, seduced by our own shadow, remain idiots.

            Get out your mirror, stand in front of it, and perform the Dracula Test, searching for evidence of reflection, for I would not be surprised to discover that Beneath every tale full of sound and fury, blossoms an apprentice angel.

            Warm regards to you all,

            Harvey


            Molecules, Cinders and other Aftermathlike Footnotes:
            "There was a time, when if the Traveller had the will and knew only a few of the secrets, he could send his barge out upon the Summer Sea, and arrive not at the Isle of Glastonbury, but at the Holy Isle of Avalon" For the the worlds were at that time, open one to another, and drifted between the mists..........."

            Cliff Notes:
            Glastonbury = The Real
            Avalon = The Archetypal



            -----Original Message-----
            From: algorithmyst <simonedim@...>
            Sent: Nov 27, 2004 2:01 AM
            To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Jung an idiot? or a rapist?


            <html><body>


            John Lennon once said to us: "I am he as you are he as you are me <BR>
            and we are all together"...<BR>

            WHEN HE AND SHE ARE GATHERED IN MY NAME.................. (Text breaks off here ;-)

            No, you're right, the original threat title, which catch my<BR>
            attention, was "Jung an idiot? or a bridge?". <BR>
            I guess you think he's a bridge and that's fine.<BR>
            I just changed it to rapist since I wanted to say something in the <BR>
            subject. <BR>
            Moreover,I think that call Jung an idiot is as much absurd as call <BR>
            him a rapist (my very personal opinion)<BR>
            <BR>
          • Steve Haag
            ... Harvey, This in its own way also speaks to our thorny topic on rape. How grand the players in the playing field. I sent this whole entry of yours to a
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 28, 2004
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              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, earlyfire@e... wrote:
              > the One ever willing to be crucified...

              Harvey,

              This in its own way also speaks to our thorny topic on rape. How
              grand the players in the playing field.

              I sent this whole entry of yours to a friend of mine who's mind is
              about as intelligently perplexed in his own miasma of critical
              reflection, without Christ, that he's verging moribund. Can all those
              willing with prayer to spare, send this poor soul some measure of
              potential catharsis to catapult him onward! God release this one most
              measured in separations all pervasively perplexing and self
              cancelling!

              I like the thought that vast differences can be overcome, when least
              expected from unknown and unlikely distances.

              Thank you again,

              Steve
            • dottie zold
              Dearest Harvey, I just want to sleep next to this thought forever. love,d ... a few of the secrets, he could send his barge out upon the Summer Sea, and arrive
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 28, 2004
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                Dearest Harvey, I just want to sleep next to this thought forever.
                love,d

                > "There was a time, when if the Traveller had the will and knew only
                a few of the secrets, he could send his barge out upon the Summer
                Sea, and arrive not at the Isle of Glastonbury, but at the Holy Isle
                of Avalon" For the the worlds were at that time, open one to another,
                and drifted between the mists..........."
                >
                > Cliff Notes:
                > Glastonbury = The Real
                > Avalon = The Archetypal
              • earlyfire@earthlink.net
                Dear Dottie; Apologies for not mileposting this untame, holy torrential poetry: Give Homage, render an exhale of light then, to Marian Zimmer Bradley for these
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 28, 2004
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                  Dear Dottie;

                  Apologies for not mileposting this untame, holy torrential poetry:

                  Give Homage, render an exhale of light then, to Marian Zimmer Bradley for these words, embedded in the mysterious three-page prologue to her spectral, profound and initiatory enzymes of cosmic perk, which preface her novel which is a monumental retelling of the Arthurian Legends from the point of view of Woman, a Magdelene's-Third-Eye view from the crow's_nest of the summits of Piercing, Indelible, Thrilling Wisdom" which announces the very beginning of "The Mists of Avalon".

                  This is as great a Sorcery and Prayer and Lyric War as the Opening Chapter to One Hundred Years of Solitude, which sings in similar accents, sourcing such cleansing fire as upward braiding, rises into the land of dream, and is made welcome, vocal in all Noble Places and Haunts, as indeed so one doubtless, lofty day we all similarly leaven'd, shall dare leap, shall dare live to see.....

                  "where the pen cannot tell nor the tongue recount"
                  (Quote from a Bahai prayer for the dead)

                  Best regards,
                  Harv
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                  Sent: Nov 28, 2004 8:46 AM
                  To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Jung an idiot? or a rapist?


                  <tt>
                  <BR>
                  Dearest Harvey, I just want to sleep next to this thought forever. <BR>
                  love,d

                  "There was a time, when if the Traveller had the will and knew only
                  a few of the secrets, he could send his barge out upon the Summer

                  Sea, and arrive not at the Isle of Glastonbury, but at the Holy Isle
                  of Avalon" For the the worlds were at that time, open one to another,
                  and drifted between the mists..........."

                  Cliff Notes
                  > Glastonbury = The Real
                  > Avalon = The Archetypal
                • Frank Thomas Smith
                  ... Jung though Jung seems to have refused him the honor of a meeting. This is news to me, Harv; could you advise were you got it? Frank
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 29, 2004
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                    >
                    > Now it is a known fact that Steiner openly sought out dialogue with C.G.
                    Jung though Jung seems to have refused him the honor of a meeting.

                    This is news to me, Harv; could you advise were you got it?

                    Frank
                  • earlyfire@earthlink.net
                    Dear Frank: Thanks for the well-thrust exclamation mark! I ll gladly regress this Known Fact back to fantasy-foam (Goethe s Term), for though I m sure I came
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 29, 2004
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                      Dear Frank:

                      Thanks for the well-thrust exclamation mark!

                      I'll gladly regress this "Known Fact" back to fantasy-foam (Goethe's Term), for though I'm sure I came across this knowledge in some arcane and cobwebbed Ghost of Decades Past, I'm nonetheless utterly clueless as to where I stumbled across this fact. And think spawning historical fiction per se to be a poor best man, but a far distant sorceror's apprentice to the sourcing of original mythology..........

                      Therefore, reluctantly compelled to decree it to be an Official Earlyfire "Old Wives Tale from the Poet's Halloween Closet", skull-spawned by an overactive double, I'll hereby check imagination's magnum 357 opus at Sheriff Reason's Office.

                      (Retreats backstage of the curtains of mortal eyelashes,
                      Pausing, Kneels, whispers to self:)

                      Possessing, alas, no discernable motive whatever to eclipse, to 'Jolly-Roger' journalistic reality with any such grandiose or aphoristic genres of historical fantasy, I'll attribute this statement to a lawlessly overdeveloped sense of literary mischief. Tax deductions for Prodigal Sons.........

                      Nonetheless, your daggery speeding-ticket prompted me to do some web-dousing, "Jung and Steiner" and at Amazon.com, I came across a most interesting title, which, had I a spare abundant, lyrical $111 dollars extra, suggests that this rumor may possess authentic origins The book is entitled

                      C. G. Jung und Rudolf Steiner: Konfrontation u. Synopse
                      by Gerhard Wehr


                      FINALLY, and further down the web page, a more explicit gesture in a quote:

                      Jung and the New Age
                      by David Tacey (Paperback - August 1, 2001)
                      (Rate this item)
                      Other Editions: Hardcover | Paperback
                      Usually ships in 1 to 2 days
                      List Price: $31.95
                      Buy new: $31.95
                      Used & new from $27.16

                      • Excerpt from page 24 "... ideas and practices of Annie Besant, Madame Blavatsky and Rudolph Steiner, all of whom were known to Jung by their reputation and influence. Jung kept a safe distance ..."
                      See more references to jung and steiner in this book.

                      Rabbi_Shakespeare Reports live from Stonehenge, the Esoteric Times-Square of the Druid Realm. ;-)

                      The notion of conflicting criteria of 'phenomenological self-evidencing' would be at the crux of validating any alleged antipathy if there were any, 'twixt Jung and Steiner, for Jung justifiably tethers the vocabulary which populates his archetypal realm to what enables creating linkage between religious, anthropological and artistic spheres, while Steiner, privy to bandwidths of secret realms, is able to employ imagination, inspiration and intuition to sponge into more native magical environments, and by such talents honored, so can analyze clairvoyantly-accessible quests where words unparalyzing, dissolve back into the flux of Divine Thought Processes.

                      The imagination arises that atoms, once-and-future- Music of the Spheres, watered by flow of inspiration, turn once again vibrant, turn back into moldable wet clay in the hands of an adept alchemist who has mastered, or at least confronted and touched into the workings of the sound, chemical and life ether.

                      Alas, and here's the rub: all Akashic Archaeology requires the ability to examine and identify boneless bones, and I sense that Jungians prefer less ethereal, less elusive language than ones which spell their words all with capital "S"

                      More later,

                      Rises from Kneeling, climbs up to the roof, in sight of singing stars, and raises his frail sub-angelic voice:

                      The real task here is to spawn questions which refuse to be imprisoned into answers, and instead turn into quests. To draw the Hierarchies into our theater, one has to supply them with open-ended scenarios, like the Jews at the passover seder, traditionally prepare a blank place setting for an unannounced visit by Elijah.....:-)

                      Best Regards,
                      Harvey


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Frank Thomas Smith <franksmith@...>
                      Sent: Nov 29, 2004 7:51 AM
                      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Jung an idiot? or a rapist?


                      <html><body>



                      > Now it is a known fact that Steiner openly sought out dialogue with C.G.
                      Jung though Jung seems to have refused him the honor of a meeting.<BR>

                      This is news to me, Harv; could you advise were you got it?<BR>
                    • Frank Thomas Smith
                      Dear Harv, ... Term), for though I m sure I came across this knowledge in some arcane and cobwebbed Ghost of Decades Past, I m nonetheless utterly clueless as
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 30, 2004
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                        Dear Harv,
                        > Dear Frank:
                        >
                        > Thanks for the well-thrust exclamation mark!
                        >
                        > I'll gladly regress this "Known Fact" back to fantasy-foam (Goethe's
                        Term), for though I'm sure I came across this knowledge in some arcane and
                        cobwebbed Ghost of Decades Past, I'm nonetheless utterly clueless as to
                        where I stumbled across this fact. And think spawning historical fiction per
                        se to be a poor best man, but a far distant sorceror's apprentice to the
                        sourcing of original mythology..........

                        An elegant albeit slippery excuse if I ever heard one. Now, consider this,
                        Steiner criticized Jung along with Frued in lectures in Zurich - I think
                        around 1919, perhaps earlier. J. was then still associated with Freud, or at
                        least not yet diametrically
                        opposed. Steiner, if I remember correctly, said that Jung was the best of
                        the bunch though. Steiner died in 1925 and Jung's major contributions didn't
                        come till later; therefore it seems to me unlikely that Steiner ever sought
                        a meeting with him. Jung lived decades longer and lived only an hour from
                        Dornach, but as far as I know never paid attention to anthroposophy or the
                        Dornach gang. The Wehr book, btw, is supposed to be excellent, though
                        regretably I haven't read it.
                        Frank

                        >
                        > Therefore, reluctantly compelled to decree it to be an Official Earlyfire
                        "Old Wives Tale from the Poet's Halloween Closet", skull-spawned by an
                        overactive double, I'll hereby check imagination's magnum 357 opus at
                        Sheriff Reason's Office.
                        >
                        > (Retreats backstage of the curtains of mortal eyelashes,
                        > Pausing, Kneels, whispers to self:)
                        >
                        > Possessing, alas, no discernable motive whatever to eclipse, to
                        'Jolly-Roger' journalistic reality with any such grandiose or aphoristic
                        genres of historical fantasy, I'll attribute this statement to a lawlessly
                        overdeveloped sense of literary mischief. Tax deductions for Prodigal
                        Sons.........
                        >
                        > Nonetheless, your daggery speeding-ticket prompted me to do some
                        web-dousing, "Jung and Steiner" and at Amazon.com, I came across a most
                        interesting title, which, had I a spare abundant, lyrical $111 dollars
                        extra, suggests that this rumor may possess authentic origins The book is
                        entitled
                        >
                        > C. G. Jung und Rudolf Steiner: Konfrontation u. Synopse
                        > by Gerhard Wehr
                        >
                        >
                        > FINALLY, and further down the web page, a more explicit gesture in a
                        quote:
                        >
                        > Jung and the New Age
                        > by David Tacey (Paperback - August 1, 2001)
                        > (Rate this item)
                        > Other Editions: Hardcover | Paperback
                        > Usually ships in 1 to 2 days
                        > List Price: $31.95
                        > Buy new: $31.95
                        > Used & new from $27.16
                        >
                        > . Excerpt from page 24 "... ideas and practices of Annie Besant,
                        Madame Blavatsky and Rudolph Steiner, all of whom were known to Jung by
                        their reputation and influence. Jung kept a safe distance ..."
                        > See more references to jung and steiner in this book.
                        >
                        > Rabbi_Shakespeare Reports live from Stonehenge, the Esoteric Times-Square
                        of the Druid Realm. ;-)
                        >
                        > The notion of conflicting criteria of 'phenomenological self-evidencing'
                        would be at the crux of validating any alleged antipathy if there were any,
                        'twixt Jung and Steiner, for Jung justifiably tethers the vocabulary which
                        populates his archetypal realm to what enables creating linkage between
                        religious, anthropological and artistic spheres, while Steiner, privy to
                        bandwidths of secret realms, is able to employ imagination, inspiration and
                        intuition to sponge into more native magical environments, and by such
                        talents honored, so can analyze clairvoyantly-accessible quests where words
                        unparalyzing, dissolve back into the flux of Divine Thought Processes.
                        >
                        > The imagination arises that atoms, once-and-future- Music of the Spheres,
                        watered by flow of inspiration, turn once again vibrant, turn back into
                        moldable wet clay in the hands of an adept alchemist who has mastered, or at
                        least confronted and touched into the workings of the sound, chemical and
                        life ether.
                        >
                        > Alas, and here's the rub: all Akashic Archaeology requires the ability to
                        examine and identify boneless bones, and I sense that Jungians prefer less
                        ethereal, less elusive language than ones which spell their words all with
                        capital "S"
                        >
                        > More later,
                        >
                        > Rises from Kneeling, climbs up to the roof, in sight of singing stars, and
                        raises his frail sub-angelic voice:
                        >
                        > The real task here is to spawn questions which refuse to be imprisoned
                        into answers, and instead turn into quests. To draw the Hierarchies into our
                        theater, one has to supply them with open-ended scenarios, like the Jews at
                        the passover seder, traditionally prepare a blank place setting for an
                        unannounced visit by Elijah.....:-)
                        >
                        > Best Regards,
                        > Harvey
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Frank Thomas Smith <franksmith@...>
                        > Sent: Nov 29, 2004 7:51 AM
                        > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Jung an idiot? or a rapist?
                        >
                        >
                        > <html><body>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > > Now it is a known fact that Steiner openly sought out dialogue with C.G.
                        > Jung though Jung seems to have refused him the honor of a meeting.<BR>
                        >
                        > This is news to me, Harv; could you advise were you got it?<BR>
                        >
                        >
                        >
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