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Jung an idiot? or a bridge?

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  • Mike Helsher
    ... Well, as an old friend used to say to me: there s a wrench for every nut is this world. Jung was a good wrench for me back in the 80 s, when Steiner s
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 25, 2004
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      Stephen H. wrote:

      > Jung was an idiot, just like Kant was an idiot. How can the
      > collective unconscious ever match up to the collective consciousness
      > that Steiner advocated for mankind's future? As well, how can the
      > dictum of Kant ever be satisfying to the soul of mankind when it
      > says that it is unknowable? In other words, if you believe in Jung
      > then the unconscious remains unconscious as long as you're a human
      > being on earth, and if you believe in Kant then it's the same for
      > thinking; a veil will always obscure the true verities. And that is
      > not what Steiner said. Yes, Steiner says, Steiner says.
      >
      > But he spoke the truth. Attainable truth. Truth attainable in a
      > lifetime.
      >
      > Steve

      Well, as an old friend used to say to me: "there's a wrench for every nut is
      this world." Jung was a good wrench for me back in the 80"s, when Steiner's
      writings went right over my head. It was because of reading his stuff that I
      kept a dream journal for many years. This was more a kind of soul science,
      but it did indeed lead to pondering the spirit, and slowly becoming aware of
      it's workings inside me, and all around. One particularly lucid dream that I
      had written down, actually came into being a couple of years later. And for
      about 3 or so minuets I could accurately predict what was going to happen,
      as I waited on a bridge over the Merrimac river (Haverhill Mass, where I was
      born) for the light to change. It was like an eternal deja'vu. Nothing
      extravagant happened, just certain color and make cars that I knew were
      going to drive by, and certain people coming around the corner. One women
      had a baby carriage that really set the whole think off completely in my
      mind. It had the exact black and white checker pattern that I recognized
      from my dream.

      A few years later, I was standing at this same spot, on the same bridge,
      crying and wishing that I had the courage to jump. This was during an
      intense period when I was trying honestly to understand an idea that had
      been given to me in a twelve step fellowship about "Praying only for
      knowledge of God's will, and the power to carry it our." Problem was that I
      was at that time very indignant about any and every kind of religious dogma
      that had been fed to me over the course of my life. I would literally say to
      myself and friends that "if there is a God, and it is truly Loving and
      caring, then I should be able to tell it to fuck off, and it will still love
      me." And that I did, right up to the point of wanting to jump off the
      bridge.

      Ironically, ten years later, when I started to really dig into RS, I
      enrolled in this online Steiner inspired study course
      http://www.onlinehumanities.com/ And one of the first courses that I took
      was "Gnosticism in modern form, Hesse and Jung". There was allot of talk
      about dreams, and how to know the difference between dreams that are
      inspired by the body, the soul, and especially the dreams that are of a
      spiritual nature ( see KHW, the chapter on changes in the dream life). It
      was during this course that I realized that I have had a recurring dream
      over the years about crossing the same bridge in Haverhill MA., only I was
      under the bridge in the scaffolding trying to jump and swing like Tarzan
      across the river. I would always get stuck, or fall at the same spot, and
      wake up completely freaked out. It was also during this course I realized
      that one of my earliest memories of childhood, was of when I was about four
      and while crossing the same bride on foot with my mom, I squeezed my head
      through the concrete pillars to look at the then very polluted river. But
      when I tried to pull my head out, I couldn't and I got really scared and so
      did my mom, who couldn't get me out either. Finally a stranger came along
      and somehow got me unstuck.

      All this stuff happened at the exact same spot, on the the same bridge, over
      a span of some thirty five years. It all has deeper meaning to me now,
      especially since I've been reading RS. Van Goah often painted bridges that
      have inspired many. And the bridge to the spirit is not a walk in the park,
      at least not for me.

      Jung's gift for mythical and metaphorical understanding has it's place. He
      inspired the likes of Joseph Campbell, who has in turn inspired many to
      become there own "hero" with his "Hero with a thousand faces."

      Perhaps he did not delve into "Intuition" as RS did. But for me anyway, he
      defiantly welled up allot of "imagination" and "inspiration."

      Mike

      "The world around us is filled everywhere with the glory of God, but we have
      to experience the Devine within our own souls before we can find it in our
      surroundings."

      Rudolf Steiner - How to know Higher worlds
    • Steve Haag
      Gosh, Mike -- story teller and story liver, Extraordinaire. Steve PS: Neil Young song coming through: The bridge, We ll build it up But that takes a lot of
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 26, 2004
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        Gosh, Mike -- story teller and story liver,

        Extraordinaire.

        Steve

        PS: Neil Young song coming through:

        The bridge,
        We'll build it up
        But that takes a lot of time
        And it may be lonely
        But ooh, babe, ooh,
        The bridge is calling

        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Helsher"
        <mhelsher@m...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Stephen H. wrote:
        >
        > > Jung was an idiot, just like Kant was an idiot. How can the
        > > collective unconscious ever match up to the collective
        consciousness
        > > that Steiner advocated for mankind's future? As well, how can the
        > > dictum of Kant ever be satisfying to the soul of mankind when it
        > > says that it is unknowable? In other words, if you believe in
        Jung
        > > then the unconscious remains unconscious as long as you're a human
        > > being on earth, and if you believe in Kant then it's the same for
        > > thinking; a veil will always obscure the true verities. And that
        is
        > > not what Steiner said. Yes, Steiner says, Steiner says.
        > >
        > > But he spoke the truth. Attainable truth. Truth attainable in a
        > > lifetime.
        > >
        > > Steve
        >
        > Well, as an old friend used to say to me: "there's a wrench for
        every nut is
        > this world." Jung was a good wrench for me back in the 80"s, when
        Steiner's
        > writings went right over my head. It was because of reading his
        stuff that I
        > kept a dream journal for many years. This was more a kind of soul
        science,
        > but it did indeed lead to pondering the spirit, and slowly becoming
        aware of
        > it's workings inside me, and all around. One particularly lucid
        dream that I
        > had written down, actually came into being a couple of years later.
        And for
        > about 3 or so minuets I could accurately predict what was going to
        happen,
        > as I waited on a bridge over the Merrimac river (Haverhill Mass,
        where I was
        > born) for the light to change. It was like an eternal deja'vu.
        Nothing
        > extravagant happened, just certain color and make cars that I knew
        were
        > going to drive by, and certain people coming around the corner. One
        women
        > had a baby carriage that really set the whole think off completely
        in my
        > mind. It had the exact black and white checker pattern that I
        recognized
        > from my dream.
        >
        > A few years later, I was standing at this same spot, on the same
        bridge,
        > crying and wishing that I had the courage to jump. This was during
        an
        > intense period when I was trying honestly to understand an idea
        that had
        > been given to me in a twelve step fellowship about "Praying only
        for
        > knowledge of God's will, and the power to carry it our." Problem
        was that I
        > was at that time very indignant about any and every kind of
        religious dogma
        > that had been fed to me over the course of my life. I would
        literally say to
        > myself and friends that "if there is a God, and it is truly Loving
        and
        > caring, then I should be able to tell it to fuck off, and it will
        still love
        > me." And that I did, right up to the point of wanting to jump off
        the
        > bridge.
        >
        > Ironically, ten years later, when I started to really dig into RS,
        I
        > enrolled in this online Steiner inspired study course
        > http://www.onlinehumanities.com/ And one of the first courses that
        I took
        > was "Gnosticism in modern form, Hesse and Jung". There was allot of
        talk
        > about dreams, and how to know the difference between dreams that
        are
        > inspired by the body, the soul, and especially the dreams that are
        of a
        > spiritual nature ( see KHW, the chapter on changes in the dream
        life). It
        > was during this course that I realized that I have had a recurring
        dream
        > over the years about crossing the same bridge in Haverhill MA.,
        only I was
        > under the bridge in the scaffolding trying to jump and swing like
        Tarzan
        > across the river. I would always get stuck, or fall at the same
        spot, and
        > wake up completely freaked out. It was also during this course I
        realized
        > that one of my earliest memories of childhood, was of when I was
        about four
        > and while crossing the same bride on foot with my mom, I squeezed
        my head
        > through the concrete pillars to look at the then very polluted
        river. But
        > when I tried to pull my head out, I couldn't and I got really
        scared and so
        > did my mom, who couldn't get me out either. Finally a stranger came
        along
        > and somehow got me unstuck.
        >
        > All this stuff happened at the exact same spot, on the the same
        bridge, over
        > a span of some thirty five years. It all has deeper meaning to me
        now,
        > especially since I've been reading RS. Van Goah often painted
        bridges that
        > have inspired many. And the bridge to the spirit is not a walk in
        the park,
        > at least not for me.
        >
        > Jung's gift for mythical and metaphorical understanding has it's
        place. He
        > inspired the likes of Joseph Campbell, who has in turn inspired
        many to
        > become there own "hero" with his "Hero with a thousand faces."
        >
        > Perhaps he did not delve into "Intuition" as RS did. But for me
        anyway, he
        > defiantly welled up allot of "imagination" and "inspiration."
        >
        > Mike
        >
        > "The world around us is filled everywhere with the glory of God,
        but we have
        > to experience the Devine within our own souls before we can find it
        in our
        > surroundings."
        >
        > Rudolf Steiner - How to know Higher worlds
      • Steve Haag
        ... solved. ... Steve, I think your above quite hits the head with the hammer. Do we want to just say it out simple and straight: the one is always the one and
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 26, 2004
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          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
          <sardisian01@y...> wrote:
          > What the participants on this forum wanted, though, was
          > sign and symbol and the veil of mystery that could never be
          solved.
          > I, on the other hand, offered up a
          > treasure chest of meaningful meanings, none of which any of these
          > Jungians seemed to want to try to grasp. Apparently, it wasn't
          > veiled enough in meaningful symbolization.

          Steve,

          I think your above quite hits the head with the hammer. Do we want to
          just say it out simple and straight: the one is always the one and in
          that we are forever safe and complete -- or, do we rather like moving
          into metaphor revealing and get lost for times and times in discovery
          of all the ways the one can be two and three and millions, and all
          the ways they so fancifully and dreadfully connect or don't.

          I'm some mix of both. One is so there, so all wombing. Yet, even
          here, with these fingers and keys, I am scribbling identities to
          other identies as we pool our separatenesses in wild mathematics.

          Oh what fun it is to ride...

          Steve
        • deborah byron
          You are such a wonderful writer, Mike...a real phoenix person--the most admirable of human beings, imo. Appreciators of Jungian symbolism would probably also
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 26, 2004
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            You are such a wonderful writer, Mike...a real phoenix person--the most
            admirable of human beings, imo. Appreciators of Jungian symbolism would
            probably also enjoy a novel by the Canadian Robertson Davies called "Fifth
            Business", part of a truly wonderful complex imaginative trilogy.

            Deborah
          • Mike Helsher
            ... Geeze Deborah, No one s ever wrote anything quite like that about me. Thanks. I don t feel like a Phoenix though. More Like Sergeant Shultz on the old
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 26, 2004
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              Deborah wrote:

              >
              > You are such a wonderful writer, Mike...a real phoenix person--the most
              > admirable of human beings, imo. Appreciators of Jungian symbolism would
              > probably also enjoy a novel by the Canadian Robertson Davies called "Fifth
              > Business", part of a truly wonderful complex imaginative trilogy.
              >
              > Deborah
              >

              Geeze Deborah, No one's ever wrote anything quite like that about me.
              Thanks.

              I don't feel like a Phoenix though. More Like Sergeant Shultz on the old
              Hogan's hero's show...

              "I Know NOTH ING!"

              Mike

              PS. Seems to me that our infamous Uncle Taz could play the part of Hogan :)
            • Mike Helsher
              ... Thanks Steve. Led Zeppelin comes to my mind. I think it s at the end of a song called The Crunge on Houses of the Holy : Excuse me Oh will you excuse
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 26, 2004
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                >
                > Gosh, Mike -- story teller and story liver,
                >
                > Extraordinaire.
                >
                > Steve
                >
                > PS: Neil Young song coming through:
                >
                > The bridge,
                > We'll build it up
                > But that takes a lot of time
                > And it may be lonely
                > But ooh, babe, ooh,
                > The bridge is calling

                Thanks Steve.

                Led Zeppelin comes to my mind. I think it's at the end of a song called "The
                Crunge" on "Houses of the Holy":

                "Excuse me
                Oh will you excuse me
                I'm just trying to find the bridge... Has anybody seen the bridge?

                (Have you seen the bridge?)
                I ain't seen the bridge!

                (Where's that confounded bridge?)" (spoken by Robert Plant)

                Mike
              • Mike Helsher
                ... Thanks Steve. I remember similar experiences with Edgar Cayceians back when I was hanging at the ARE in the late 80 s http://www.are-cayce.com/ . I
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 26, 2004
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                  Steve quoted:
                  >
                  > "Present-day experiences of the phenomena known as "synchronicity"
                  > serves as proof that individuated consciousness is evolving out of
                  > the collective unconscious. The more aware we become of the unity and
                  > coincidences that are woven into our lives, the more self conscious
                  > we become. It can lead to self remembering as a consequence of
                  > pouring effort into our inner reflection. The thinker thinks the
                  > thoughts that he forms through his own intention. When he intends his
                  > thoughts inwardly, the result is self-illumination. Adductive
                  > reasoning functions within the concept of the balance between
                  > opposites. In other words, pure thinking unobstructed by the
                  > identities, which have been formed by deductive and inductive logic,
                  > which exist to realize the nature of opposites."
                  >
                  > Mike, sometimes my impetuosity gets the better of me, like calling
                  > certain idiots, idiots. The above quote is a minor sample of the
                  > nearly 1-1/2 years I spent on a forum that was very interested in
                  > Jung and his theories on synchronicity and its meaningful
                  > conicidences. What the particpants on this forum wanted, though, was
                  > sign and symbol and the veil of mystery that could never be solved.
                  > It was very Kantian in its way. I, on the other hand, offered up a
                  > treasure chest of meaningful meanings, none of which any of these
                  > Jungians seemed to want to try to grasp. Apparently, it wasn't
                  > veiled enough in meaningful symbolization.


                  Thanks Steve.

                  I remember similar experiences with Edgar Cayceians back when I was hanging
                  at the ARE in the late 80's http://www.are-cayce.com/ . I couldn't really
                  articulate my distain back then for all those lucifiric ld-de-da's that were
                  always blaming there screwed up present day lives on speculated past life
                  experiences, or on what someone else told them about their own past lives.
                  And they used to answer the phone, and speak, in this low mono tone whisper
                  type voice that is reminiscent of someone who has had to many orgasms in one
                  day...

                  Not all were like that though. I met some Steiner-heads there as well, and
                  they seemed to be the most down to earth.

                  I think I'm starting to really understand why so many like to live behind
                  the veil, or on one side of the bridge. Crossing it requires effort and
                  courage, and most of all - Pain. Dottie wrote something really wonderful
                  about pain recently (thanks Dottie). And in a book that I gave to the other
                  Steve recently (hi Steve, where's my book man!) "our Twelve Senses" there is
                  an incredible discourse on our "life sense" and the necessity of pain. Makes
                  sense to me also why some people do crazy shit some times (budgie jumping)
                  in the physical, so as to feel "alive" for a while.
                  >
                  > Now, based on what you say below, which is excellent stuff, I have an
                  > incident of external deja vu as well to give, and I discussed it on
                  > this Jungian forum for the first time ever. It is the only event of
                  > its kind I have ever had, and I was able to recall it as a matter of
                  > my participation on that list. So, I give great credit to what Jung
                  > has offered up as a potential for disclosure that resides in all of
                  > us. And what that is coincides exactly with the concept of eternal
                  > recurrence which Nietzsche was able to bring forth out of the
                  > dionysian stream of time and its recollection. A concept that has
                  > further evolved in the 20th century as self remembering.

                  Geeze Steve, Your way ahead of me with the history, but I get your drift.

                  >
                  > The occurrence: When I was in the third grade or so, my class took a
                  > field trip to the Centralia train depot, which had remained unaltered
                  > since the turn of the century. This would have been around 1957.
                  > Now in thinking back on this event, which was stimulated by a
                  > question from this Jung forum concerning experiences of extended
                  > altered states of consciousness, I was able to recall that I had gone
                  > through this field trip in such an altered state. It was like I had
                  > been in this place before, or a similar place with old rail cars and
                  > station house. I was perplexed to try to connect it with its former
                  > place in time, yet I remember not being able to focus on the present
                  > moment. Very strange. I kept thinking, I've been here before, and
                  > it gave me a strange sense of satisfaction and security.

                  >
                  > I found out a couple of years ago from a friend who is into railroad
                  > history that the Centralia railway station had been a landmark of
                  > turn-of-the century history in this respect. And it had remained in
                  > this unaltered state until it was modernized in 2000. I was
                  > disappointed in hearing this because I had intended to go back there
                  > and see if I could replicate the experience.

                  Thanks for sharing that.

                  I have had a strange fascination with P-51 Mustang WW2 fighters since I was
                  a kid. When I first started reading Richard Bach, I became fascinated with
                  flying, and went to a lake where I was going to go for a ride in a float
                  plane. While waiting for the Plane, I was thinking about how cool it would
                  be to get my own plane some day, when out from the distance I heard a sound
                  like no other (nothing else sounds like a Merlin V-12)... It was a vintage
                  P-51 that came roaring over the mountain peaks, and banked sharply right
                  above where I was sitting. I had never, nor have I ever since, seen one of
                  these planes in person...

                  I wish upon you as much pain as you can handle :)

                  Mike
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