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Are we not human?

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  • Jo Selsjord
    Jan (starbirdgarden in the blue yonder), Ivan Gottel ( Godling - tempts on the horizon) - and you all - with names the Blackbird sings - may I speak? I am new
    Message 1 of 3 , Nov 1, 2004
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      Jan (starbirdgarden in the blue yonder), Ivan Gottel ('Godling' - tempts
      on the horizon) - and you all - with names the Blackbird sings - may I
      speak?

      I am new to this site, but still not all novice to aspects of what you
      seem to struggle or to play with.

      I must admit I haven't followed all of Ivan's thread(s), but my
      impression is that you, Ivan, are extremely troubled by the possibility
      or experience of encounters with 'an unknown' or 'incomplete' kind. I
      can relate to that intellectually, but - me simpleton - don' see the
      real problem regarding these encounters (stay real -
      http://www.spoonjackson.com).

      Granted - our friend with the deeply socketed eyes eleborates (in Jan's
      quote):

      'Above all, people who have healthy souls suffer as a consequence of
      those who go about as human locusts. So the question can arise, and
      indeed must arise, as to how one should behave towards such people.'

      But he says much more both before and after this sentence - and before
      and after Jan's slightly more extended quote.

      Rudolf Steiner's lecture work is in particular extremely context
      sensitive. I have found it invariably frustrating to attempt excerpts
      from his lectures. He ties the laces neatly at both ends like he tied
      his neat bow-tie, but usually he ties the initial lace not to the final
      thread of the lecture at hand, but to the final lace in the previous
      lecture - et al. I think he did this on purpose - not to spite us or
      make matters more complex, but because the subjects he ventured to shed
      light on - and his angle of approach - demanded a certain amount of
      exposure for his audience to begin to fathom the depth of the firth!

      It is my opinion we must very seriously take this into consideration
      before flashing his quotes about - otherwise we do wrong (only wrong) to
      him and to ourselves - and that would be a pity for us all - me thinx.

      I'm not able to take part in Ivan's stranger experiences (though I
      experience myself as pretty strange at times); this is not saying he is
      off at the deep end - quite contrary. I try to assimilate his
      experiences, but my predjudices reel.

      My world is NOT inherently evil/lurking/luring. This vessel - be it
      Tellus, Ra, Mayflower, Gaia, KonTiki is of our own making (with some
      help - granted), but we will keep it floating for as long as it takes -
      damn it and us, if we can't manage that much!

      We may be moving in he direction of 'Free' Spirits. I feel the need to
      bow down to all that moves and doubly bow myself to all that cannot
      move, because they/this is part of what carries us onward on our strange
      and adventurous journey.


      My regards to you all!

      JoS

      Jan wrote:
      >
      > Speaking of population growth in lecture 13 of The Book of Revelation and
      > the work of the Priest Steiner says
      >
      > "Well first of all the facts are not quite what they seem because the
      > statistics are based on errors; statistical comparisons never refer to the
      > earth as a whole but only to parts, and one forgets that at other times
      > different parts of the earth were more densely populated than they are
      > today. So the details are not always quite correct, but taken as a whole it
      > is correct to say that in our time certain supernumerary people are
      > appearing who have no 'I' and are therefore not human beings in the full
      > sense of the word. This is a terrible truth. They go about but are not
      > incarnated 'I's; they take their place in physical heredity, receive an
      > ether body and an astral body and in a sense become equipped inwardly with
      > an ahrimanic consciousness. They appear to be human if you do not look too
      > closely yet they are not human beings in the full sense of the word. This
      > is a terrible truth but it is a fact. The apocalyptist is pointing directly
      > at human beings themselves when he speaks about the age of the fifth
      > trumpet. Once again we can recognize the apocalyptist by the manner of his
      > vision. In their astral body such people appear just as the apocalyptist
      > describes them: like etheric locusts with human faces. It is definitely
      > necessary for us to think in this way about such supersensible matters and
      > for priests to know these things. A priest is a shepherd of souls. He must
      > be able to find words for everything that goes on in such a soul. These are
      > not necessarily always evil souls; they may merely be souls that develop as
      > far as the soul realm but lack an 'I'. One is sure to notice if one comes
      > across such a person, and the priest must know about it for it will have a
      > bearing on the quality of communion in his congregation. Above all, people
      > who have healthy souls suffer as a consequence of those who go about as
      > human locusts. So the question can arise, and indeed must arise, as to how
      > one should behave towards such people." end quote
    • Jan
      Agreed. Which is why I recommended reading the lecture in its sequence within the cycle and in full. Jan
      Message 2 of 3 , Nov 2, 2004
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        Agreed. Which is why I recommended reading the lecture in its sequence
        within the cycle and in full.
        Jan

        sequence On 2/11/04 1:40 am, "Jo Selsjord" <jo@...> wrote:

        > Jan (starbirdgarden in the blue yonder), Ivan Gottel ('Godling' - tempts
        > on the horizon) - and you all - with names the Blackbird sings - may I
        > speak?
        >
        > I am new to this site, but still not all novice to aspects of what you
        > seem to struggle or to play with.
        >
        > I must admit I haven't followed all of Ivan's thread(s), but my
        > impression is that you, Ivan, are extremely troubled by the possibility
        > or experience of encounters with 'an unknown' or 'incomplete' kind. I
        > can relate to that intellectually, but - me simpleton - don' see the
        > real problem regarding these encounters (stay real -
        > http://www.spoonjackson.com).
        >
        > Granted - our friend with the deeply socketed eyes eleborates (in Jan's
        > quote):
        >
        > 'Above all, people who have healthy souls suffer as a consequence of
        > those who go about as human locusts. So the question can arise, and
        > indeed must arise, as to how one should behave towards such people.'
        >
        > But he says much more both before and after this sentence - and before
        > and after Jan's slightly more extended quote.
        >
        > Rudolf Steiner's lecture work is in particular extremely context
        > sensitive. I have found it invariably frustrating to attempt excerpts
        > from his lectures. He ties the laces neatly at both ends like he tied
        > his neat bow-tie, but usually he ties the initial lace not to the final
        > thread of the lecture at hand, but to the final lace in the previous
        > lecture - et al. I think he did this on purpose - not to spite us or
        > make matters more complex, but because the subjects he ventured to shed
        > light on - and his angle of approach - demanded a certain amount of
        > exposure for his audience to begin to fathom the depth of the firth!
        >
        > It is my opinion we must very seriously take this into consideration
        > before flashing his quotes about - otherwise we do wrong (only wrong) to
        > him and to ourselves - and that would be a pity for us all - me thinx.
        >
        > I'm not able to take part in Ivan's stranger experiences (though I
        > experience myself as pretty strange at times); this is not saying he is
        > off at the deep end - quite contrary. I try to assimilate his
        > experiences, but my predjudices reel.
        >
        > My world is NOT inherently evil/lurking/luring. This vessel - be it
        > Tellus, Ra, Mayflower, Gaia, KonTiki is of our own making (with some
        > help - granted), but we will keep it floating for as long as it takes -
        > damn it and us, if we can't manage that much!
        >
        > We may be moving in he direction of 'Free' Spirits. I feel the need to
        > bow down to all that moves and doubly bow myself to all that cannot
        > move, because they/this is part of what carries us onward on our strange
        > and adventurous journey.
        >
        >
        > My regards to you all!
        >
        > JoS
        >
        > Jan wrote:
        >>
        >> Speaking of population growth in lecture 13 of The Book of Revelation and
        >> the work of the Priest Steiner says
        >>
        >> "Well first of all the facts are not quite what they seem because the
        >> statistics are based on errors; statistical comparisons never refer to the
        >> earth as a whole but only to parts, and one forgets that at other times
        >> different parts of the earth were more densely populated than they are
        >> today. So the details are not always quite correct, but taken as a whole it
        >> is correct to say that in our time certain supernumerary people are
        >> appearing who have no 'I' and are therefore not human beings in the full
        >> sense of the word. This is a terrible truth. They go about but are not
        >> incarnated 'I's; they take their place in physical heredity, receive an
        >> ether body and an astral body and in a sense become equipped inwardly with
        >> an ahrimanic consciousness. They appear to be human if you do not look too
        >> closely yet they are not human beings in the full sense of the word. This
        >> is a terrible truth but it is a fact. The apocalyptist is pointing directly
        >> at human beings themselves when he speaks about the age of the fifth
        >> trumpet. Once again we can recognize the apocalyptist by the manner of his
        >> vision. In their astral body such people appear just as the apocalyptist
        >> describes them: like etheric locusts with human faces. It is definitely
        >> necessary for us to think in this way about such supersensible matters and
        >> for priests to know these things. A priest is a shepherd of souls. He must
        >> be able to find words for everything that goes on in such a soul. These are
        >> not necessarily always evil souls; they may merely be souls that develop as
        >> far as the soul realm but lack an 'I'. One is sure to notice if one comes
        >> across such a person, and the priest must know about it for it will have a
        >> bearing on the quality of communion in his congregation. Above all, people
        >> who have healthy souls suffer as a consequence of those who go about as
        >> human locusts. So the question can arise, and indeed must arise, as to how
        >> one should behave towards such people." end quote
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Tarjei Straume
        ... Apparent contradictions seem to be a hallmark of occult writings, ancient and modern, when read as ordinary literature. That s why the Gospels don t match.
        Message 3 of 3 , Nov 2, 2004
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          At 02:40 02.11.2004, Jo wrote:

          >Rudolf Steiner's lecture work is in particular extremely context
          >sensitive. I have found it invariably frustrating to attempt excerpts
          >from his lectures. He ties the laces neatly at both ends like he tied his
          >neat bow-tie, but usually he ties the initial lace not to the final thread
          >of the lecture at hand, but to the final lace in the previous lecture - et
          >al. I think he did this on purpose - not to spite us or make matters more
          >complex, but because the subjects he ventured to shed light on - and his
          >angle of approach - demanded a certain amount of exposure for his audience
          >to begin to fathom the depth of the firth!

          Apparent contradictions seem to be a hallmark of occult writings, ancient
          and modern, when read as ordinary literature. That's why the Gospels don't
          match. That's why one excerpt from a Steiner lecture doesn't always
          harmonize with another excerpt taken from an entirely different lecture
          given to a special audience.

          And speaking of the cycle to the CC priests held in Dornach, September 1924
          - the last lecture cycle Steiner was able to complete before his failing
          health put an end to this activity - here is an appropriate excerpt that
          should serve as a word of caution when it comes to highly controversial
          subjects:

          *******************************************************************************
          You see, the logic we have in the physical world by which we distinguish
          between untruth and truth is no use in the spiritual world. It is a
          complete mistake to believe that one can use in the spiritual world the
          concepts of untruth and truth that are current here in the physical world.
          There is nothing in the spiritual world that can be distinguished in this
          manner. There are beings who are good and others who are evil. You have to
          recognize them for what they are, for they do not tell you. But even the
          evil ones are true in their own way. This is difficult to understand, of
          course, just as everything we encounter on entereing the spiritual world is
          difficult to understand. Here in the physical world we can state that a
          straight line is the shortest distance between two points. In the spiritual
          world this could be the longest distance, with every other one being
          shorter. None of the logic we most certainly need here in the physical
          world is any use in the spiritual world.

          So a true initiate needs to have a special disposition of soul in order to
          see into the spiritual world. He must be fully responsible in the way he
          immediately works with physical concepts as soon as he returns to the
          physical world.

          *******************************************************************************
          - Rudolf Steiner: "The Book of Revelation and the Work of the Priest"
          (Vorträge und Kurse über christlich-religiöses Wirken, V. Apokalypse und
          Priesterwirken, GA 346), Lecture 11, Dornach, 15 September 1924

          The above quote is highly applicable to this thread, because in this
          particular lecture, RS is talking about how the medium's 'I' is replaced by
          other spirits in seances.


          Tarjei
          http://uncletaz.com/
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