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Research for Ivan

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  • wdenval@aol.com
    Dear Ivan, I have been through the on-line library and my own library but I have not found any reference to humans without egos in the present day. I read all
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 1, 2004
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      Dear Ivan,

      I have been through the on-line library and my own library but I have not found any reference to humans without egos in the present day. I read all lectures on-line that contained the key words Ahriman, Asuras, Atlantis, Ego, I AM, China, Chinese, and retarded. I have not been through all the books yet but have reviewed Cosmic Memory, Occult Science and the Study of Man. I will keep researching because what I have found is interesting and may have meaning for you. In the meantime-perhaps you could conduct some research as well.

      Could you, the next time you feel the black hole around a person make note of the situation, the context, the physical reality of the situation he/she is in. What is the person saying, doing, seeing, or hearing when you feel this blackness? I have, as I have mentioned seen the black hole, and although I have a different explanation for it, I would like to compare notes with you regarding actual experience of this phenomena. Thanks-Val
    • Jan
      Speaking of population growth in lecture 13 of The Book of Revelation and the work of the Priest Steiner says Well first of all the facts are not quite what
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 1, 2004
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        Speaking of population growth in lecture 13 of The Book of Revelation and
        the work of the Priest Steiner says


        "Well first of all the facts are not quite what they seem because the
        statistics are based on errors; statistical comparisons never refer to the
        earth as a whole but only to parts, and one forgets that at other times
        different parts of the earth were more densely populated than they are
        today. So the details are not always quite correct, but taken as a whole it
        is correct to say that in our time certain supernumerary people are
        appearing who have no 'I' and are therefore not human beings in the full
        sense of the word. This is a terrible truth. They go about but are not
        incarnated 'I's; they take their place in physical heredity, receive an
        ether body and an astral body and in a sense become equipped inwardly with
        an ahrimanic consciousness. They appear to be human if you do not look too
        closely yet they are not human beings in the full sense of the word. This
        is a terrible truth but it is a fact. The apocalyptist is pointing directly
        at human beings themselves when he speaks about the age of the fifth
        trumpet. Once again we can recognize the apocalyptist by the manner of his
        vision. In their astral body such people appear just as the apocalyptist
        describes them: like etheric locusts with human faces. It is definitely
        necessary for us to think in this way about such supersensible matters and
        for priests to know these things. A priest is a shepherd of souls. He must
        be able to find words for everything that goes on in such a soul. These are
        not necessarily always evil souls; they may merely be souls that develop as
        far as the soul realm but lack an 'I'. One is sure to notice if one comes
        across such a person, and the priest must know about it for it will have a
        bearing on the quality of communion in his congregation. Above all, people
        who have healthy souls suffer as a consequence of those who go about as
        human locusts. So the question can arise, and indeed must arise, as to how
        one should behave towards such people." end quote
      • Ivan Gottel
        TRUTH IS ALWAYS OFFENSIVE Thank you, Jan! I had not read this statement/lecture before. But this is far more explicit than the one I found. I can only add that
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 1, 2004
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          TRUTH IS ALWAYS OFFENSIVE
          Thank you, Jan!
          I had not read this statement/lecture before. But this is far more explicit than the one I found.
          I can only add that times have since developed (or deteriorated) - from the time this statement was made, some 4 billions of people (?) have been born, e.g. in Steiner's time he mentions 1 billion people that inhabit the earth..
          Also, the cast-down demon clans have had enough time to do some "research work" too. They had time to implant themselves deeper into the "humans", possess them, take over control as much as they could, help them building up a world-view of a demonic kind etc.
          So, they are not only among us, but inside many of "us".
          We better start seeing with our spirit - who is belonging to us, and who is not.
          And regarding half-truths we better take them away from "bad sources" and we better take the half of the truth from HItler and see there are classes of humans in broader sense of meaning - and not the races - that make them come into 3 categories: Those that build culture, those that maintain it, and those that destroy.
          Humans build culture, the innocent can only maintain it and the astral-fixed are destroying it constantly.
          One may proclaim "all humans are born equal" as stated in the declarations of UN and US. That is the same kind of half truth that Onkel Adolf has proclaimed: The other half of the racial theory.
          Both are lethal weapons of ethical mass destruction when taken - exclusively - without the other part.
          Moreover, the paranoid insistence on pure doctrinal lines of thought is producing a spiritual China-Wall. We may then say that "our way is the best and the only" as the modern american (read US) false prophets all insist, from AMWAY (sic!) to scientology.
          Someone pursuing her/his own genuine spiritual path should safeguard from such unscientific non-senses. Free thinking exactly means breaking out of boundaries, prejudices and confines of a system.
          It is sad when you inside a group that claims to be spiritual find hostile emotions towards other ways of thinking as systems or towards other religions. It is even sadder when you see that critic comes from a human who has no bad intentions at all but follows the group-mind trend of taking other creeds for lower then - Christianity.
          In this last case I am talking about the exrpessed loathing in one of recent mailings towards Shaivism, Shiva and Shivalinga. If the author had had a chance to gather any serious knowledge of the themes he is speaking about he hadn't talk like that. It is pretty funny once you know the Personalities behind the divine game - to say bad words about the One of the Highest Trinity while pretending to follow His Servant, namely Vishvakarman or popularily, Christ.
          But these are the direct consequences of doctrinal exclusivism and the play with glass pearls, e.g. exhange of thoughts that come not into action and remain futile and infertile inside the castle walls.
          That is also one of the reasons those that have knowledge need go out among the wolves, rather than to play social games inside a closed group. One learns not only from Angels, but from demons as well. What is vita contemplativa without vita activa?
          My respect,
          Ivan
          P.S.Besides, it is of the interest of the astral-fixed or egoless members of one group to keep negativity towards other groups or negativity of any sort. It is even greater fun for them, to "simply have fun" and entertain exchanges of thoughs that lead to no action and have no meaning. Because, while engaging in thought-plays the dangerous anthroposofhists are dissenged from fulfilling their mission.
          Jan <starbirdgarden@...> wrote:
          Speaking of population growth in lecture 13 of The Book of Revelation and
          the work of the Priest Steiner says


          "Well first of all the facts are not quite what they seem because the
          statistics are based on errors; statistical comparisons never refer to the
          earth as a whole but only to parts, and one forgets that at other times
          different parts of the earth were more densely populated than they are
          today.  So the details are not always quite correct, but taken as a whole it
          is correct to say that in our time certain supernumerary people are
          appearing who have no 'I' and are therefore not human beings in the full
          sense of the word.  This is a terrible truth.  They go about but are not
          incarnated 'I's; they take their place in physical heredity, receive an
          ether body and an astral body and in a sense become equipped inwardly with
          an ahrimanic consciousness.  They appear to be human if you do not look  too
          closely yet they are not human beings in the full sense of the word.  This
          is a terrible truth but it is a fact.  The apocalyptist is pointing directly
          at human beings themselves when he speaks about the age of the fifth
          trumpet.  Once again we can recognize the apocalyptist by the manner of his
          vision.  In their astral body such people appear just as the apocalyptist
          describes them: like etheric locusts with human faces.  It is definitely
          necessary for us to think in this way about such supersensible matters and
          for priests to know these things.  A priest is a shepherd of souls.  He must
          be able to find words for everything that goes on in such a soul.  These are
          not necessarily always evil souls; they may merely be souls that develop  as
          far as the soul realm but lack an 'I'.  One is sure to notice if one comes
          across such a person, and the priest must know about it for it will have a
          bearing on the quality of communion in his congregation.  Above all, people
          who have healthy souls suffer as a consequence of those who go about as
          human locusts.  So the question can arise, and indeed must arise, as to how
          one should behave towards such people." end quote



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        • wdenval@aol.com
          So the question can arise, and indeed must arise, as to how one should behave towards such people. end quote Thanks, Jan for providing this quote!!! Does
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 1, 2004
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            "So the question can arise, and indeed must arise, as to how
            one should behave towards such people." end quote


            Thanks, Jan for providing this quote!!! Does Steiner then go on to address the question of how one should behave toward those who have "developed only as far as the soul realm" or who do not have "healthy" souls? -Val
          • Danny F.
            ... of recent mailings towards Shaivism, Shiva and Shivalinga. If the author had had a chance to gather any serious knowledge of the themes he is speaking
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 2, 2004
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              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Ivan Gottel
              <ivangottel@y...> wrote:

              > In this last case I am talking about the exrpessed loathing in one
              of recent mailings towards Shaivism, Shiva and Shivalinga. If the
              author had had a chance to gather any serious knowledge of the themes
              he is speaking about he hadn't talk like that. It is pretty funny
              once you know the Personalities behind the divine game - to say bad
              words about the One of the Highest Trinity while pretending to follow
              His Servant, namely Vishvakarman or popularily, Christ.
              > But these are the direct consequences of doctrinal exclusivism and
              the play with glass pearls, e.g. exhange of thoughts that come not
              into action and remain futile and infertile inside the castle walls.
              > That is also one of the reasons those that have knowledge need go
              out among the wolves, rather than to play social games inside a
              closed group. One learns not only from Angels, but from demons as
              well. What is vita contemplativa without vita activa?
              > My respect,
              > Ivan

              My Respects Ivan,

              In order of Appearance
              Follow Honest
              Look at the Sequence:

              All life is a transcendent process of renewal which, on first glance,
              seems to be a process of destruction.
              ┬ľNovalis

              http://www.neue-medizin.com/hamereng.htm

              "And so you have gained a picture of those beings which are just on
              the boundary of the world lying immediately beyond the threshold, and
              of how, if they carry their impulses to their final issue, they
              become the bearers of parasites, of poisons, and therewith of
              illnesses. Now it becomes clear how far man in health raises himself
              above the forces that take hold of him in illness. For illness
              springs from the malevolence of these beings who are necessary for
              the upbuilding of the whole structure of nature, but also for its
              fading and decay.

              These are the things which, arising from instinctive clairvoyance,
              underlie such intuitions as those of the Indian Brahma, Vishnu and
              Shiva. Brahma represented the active Being in world-spheres which may
              legitimately approach man. Vishnu represented those world-spheres
              which may only approach man in so far as what has been built up must
              again be broken down, in so far as it must be continually
              transformed. Shiva represented everything connected with the forces
              of destruction. And in the earlier stages of the flower of Indian
              civilization it was said that Brahma is intimately related to all
              that is of the nature of the fire-beings, and the sylphs; Vishnu with
              all that is of the nature of sylphs and undines; Shiva with all that
              is of the nature of undines and gnomes. Generally speaking, when we
              go back to these more ancient conceptions, we find everywhere the
              pictorial expressions for what must be sought today as lying behind
              the secrets of nature."

              http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19231103p01.html

              "Look into the religion of Shiva, study it carefully; and you will
              follow me when I say that the Shiva religion of India can be
              understood when one has knowledge of the Lucifer Being. For Shiva is
              in reality Lucifer in the form in which he is not yet overcome."

              http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19120612p01.html

              Yep Taz, the Big Missiles Libidinal...
              Or how Ahrimen Herr Materialist them
              Harem Cars, Clothes and Cash as Darwinians
              Prosperous in Animalism Fueling a Lucifer
              Sub-human-they to fully Lie before God
              In Love Ka Social Deficient
              Inviting Diseases to come -
              But still managing to get a woman
              For urges Sexual Pleasure Machoman
              Makes them into Things Consumed
              As Manipulation and Violence Rule!

              Who is it tsbeen said that Kills Children?
              The Commander in Chief - LILITH Supersensible?...

              Black Eggs of Shivaism
              And Gold Jail Ingot Accumulated
              A Tantra of Orcs is Fomented;
              EXPLOSIVE is a CLOSED SYSTEM!!

              Daisy-Cutter a type of bomb named...
              And other such they all do are there
              Reminding us how Terrible our age
              As one of Wars after Wars waged
              And how Innocents, Ardents, Simples and Braves
              Are Cut way from the surface of the Earth;
              Many whom we don't ever know their names
              As each and every one of the 100 000 civilians
              Killed by the soldiers playing Nintendo games...

              And should you oppose such Empires
              Like a Prophet of Peace Fight Manichean?
              Then be ready to be the Target of choice
              Of those of have Guns of all sorts in their Arsonall!
              Yes, because for them happiness is a warm Gun!

              One I know in deeds and name
              - Friedrich Schlegel - once said
              About his non-literary Bible project:
              "I feel courage and strenght
              enough not to only preach and be zealous
              like Luther, but also, like Mohammed,
              to go about the world conquering the realm
              of the spirit with the fiery sword of the word,
              and to sacrifice my life like Christ."

              "Christ you know it ain't easy
              You know how hard it can be
              The way things are going
              They're gonna crucify me"...
              - 'The Ballad of John and Yoko'
              (John Lennon - 1940-1980)


              Etc.

              Danny
            • Jan
              Hello Ivan, The lecture I quoted needs, of course, to be read in its due sequence in the book and studied in depth. It may be available on the Steiner
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 2, 2004
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                Hello Ivan,
                The lecture I quoted needs, of course, to be read in its due sequence in
                the book and studied in depth. It may be available on the Steiner Archive,
                but I've had difficulty in accessing the archive since the site was updated
                and had no time to type more of the lecture last night. It is available in
                book form from the Steiner Press. In the lecture quoted Rudolf Steiner goes
                on to speak of the egoless beings and how they should be perceived and
                treated and of the different causes of being egoless.
                In matters of the Ego we always walk the knife edge of the two edged sword
                and must be able to see behind any particular physical appearance. A plant,
                for example, may have yellow leaves because it is waterlogged or because it
                is too dry. Accurate knowledge is all, or one may apply water where there is
                too much, or withhold it where there is drought. We need to see the exact
                cause behind the effect and act accordingly. It is far from easy.
                This knowledge needs treating with the utmost caution and inner
                sensitivity. This cannot be overstated as there are great dangers in a
                misuse of such revelation, which was given by Rudolf Steiner discretely and
                privately to a group of priests whom he trusted to have a certain spiritual
                maturity. (He always saw the potential for development in people and
                responded to that possibility even if it did not always later develop and
                bear the fruit he had hoped for, still he planted the seeds.)
                A deep inner sensitivity and spiritual delicacy is necessary in
                approaching this, in fact it is the actual foundation of the development of
                the spiritual faculties necessary to make any kind of diagnosis as to the
                state of another human being's ego development. Always a very risky act and
                open to a Luciferic self love deception! For me, publishing on the
                internet a list of those with or without egos is utterly without that
                necessary sensitivity. This is not to say that we do not have our own
                experiences in this matter, but they must always be treated with the
                reverence necessary in spiritual development, or there occurs a hardening
                which becomes an obstacle, like a cataract on an eye lens so that vision is
                distorted and darkened.
                The other necessity in approaching this subject is a deep relationship
                with Christ, which brings the necessary compassion. We all have much further
                to go on this one! Without that it degenerates into that Elitist Occultism
                of the Dark brotherhoods and Lodges whose aim is to make all of us egoless
                beings, amenable to herding, selective eugenic breeding, factory farming and
                devouring, using us as raw material as we presently abuse and use the
                animals, forcing them down into a plant kingdom status - as if they had no
                astral bodies. Therefore they are spoken of as 'product' or 'crop'. We saw
                a kind of rehearsal of their future intentions regarding us in the Nazi and
                Stalinist concentration camps. (We should be aware, incidentally, that in
                our complicity in forcing the animals into a lower kingdom we create a
                vaccuum which sucks humanity down into the animal state.)
                This question of egolessness should, I maintain, certainly not be linked
                in any way with race for example, again a fundamental basis of certain
                nationalistic Occultists themselves linked to fallen Folk Spirits. There
                are many pitfalls here, many false paths, and we cannot be too wary.
                The Ego, Rudolf Steiner tells us, never actually incarnates but shines in
                from above. Fitfully, in most cases! And there are many reasons why that
                shining in is impeded or prevented; drugs - both illegal and medical -
                vaccination, mental illness, possession, black magical practice and on and
                on. Each case of supposed egolessness must be treated circumspectly and
                uniquely, and we must have a very good reason for bringing any suspected
                case to public attention. Equally, we must not ignore the phenomenon. Study
                and research is vital.
                Unfortunately I have been too busy recently to read everything on this
                thread, so apologize if others have made these points already. I join with
                others on the list in welcoming your thoughts and any light that we can
                collectively shed on this condition, which will become ever more urgent and
                apparent in the world. But the Christ Impulse of Love and Compassion is
                paramount, else we fall.
                Jan
              • Frank Thomas Smith
                Ivan wrote: TRUTH IS ALWAYS OFFENSIVE F: Especially if it s the other guy s. (snip) One may proclaim all humans are born equal as stated in the declarations
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 2, 2004
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                  Ivan wrote:
                  TRUTH IS ALWAYS OFFENSIVE
                   
                  F: Especially if it's the other guy's.
                   
                  (snip)
                   
                  One may proclaim "all humans are born equal" as stated in the declarations of UN and US. That is the same kind of half truth that Onkel Adolf has proclaimed: The other half of the racial theory.
                  Both are lethal weapons of ethical mass destruction when taken - exclusively - without the other part.
                   
                  The US Declaration of Independence states (paraphrasing); that all men are created equal, and have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This is an obvous reference to the rights sphere - so I don't see how it's "the other part of the racial theory".
                   
                  (snip)
                  P.S.Besides, it is of the interest of the astral-fixed or egoless members of one group to keep negativity towards other groups or negativity of any sort. It is even greater fun for them, to "simply have fun" and entertain exchanges of thoughs that lead to no action and have no meaning. Because, while engaging in thought-plays the dangerous anthroposofhists are dissenged from fulfilling their mission.
                  Thanks. You have a great sense of humor.
                   
                  Frank
                   
                   
                • wdenval@aol.com
                  Dear Ivan, ... Val: I have read these lectures before and I did not remember this. What I do remember is a lecture about the I AM consciousness coming
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 2, 2004
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                    Dear Ivan,

                    In writing to Jan you wrote:
                    I had not read this statement/lecture before. But this is far more explicit than the one I found.
                    I can only add that times have since developed (or deteriorated) - from the time this statement was made, some 4 billions of people (?) have been born, e.g. in Steiner's time he mentions 1 billion people that inhabit the earth.



                    Val:
                    I have read these lectures before and I did not remember this. What I do remember is a lecture about the I AM consciousness coming initially through Christ and then gradually coming more and more through all of humanity. I did not get out of this book that the majority of the people walking around do not have egos so I must have missed Lecture 13 somehow-stranger things have happened. But also, you are remembering a quote regarding a past epoch that perhaps has bearing on the term "supernumerary." I am still interested in finding this quote and perhaps someone else on the list knows of it.


                    Ivan:
                    Also, the cast-down demon clans have had enough time to do some "research work" too. They had time to implant themselves deeper into the "humans", possess them, take over control as much as they could, help them building up a world-view of a demonic kind etc.
                    So, they are not only among us, but inside many of "us."


                    Val:
                    The "cast-down demons" are as I think Bradford put it "weaving in and out" of our astral bodies all the time. They are implanted so deep as to be influencing our language and thus the medium of our own thinking and our communication with "the other." So I agree with you here-they are both among us and in us.

                    Ivan:
                    We better start seeing with our spirit - who is belonging to us, and who is not.


                    Val:
                    Now here is a whole fascinating area of research-how to start seeing with the spirit? How is truth and untruth discerned in the Spiritual World?  How do we know when an egoless being is present? Steiner instructions to the Priests say they will know but he does not say how. He says you have to see it-they will not tell you. Now again I have had some of these experiences you have had and maybe I didn't see/feel the source as egolessness because I didn't have the concept or maybe I didn't see it because it wasn't there to see.

                    Either way, I think it is essential to discern between the two things. On the one hand you have the (hopefully rare) egoless person. And on the other you have various entities running the show rather than the ego of a given individual.

                    Ivan:
                    And regarding half-truths we better take them away from "bad sources" and we better take the half of the truth from Hitler and see there are classes of humans in broader sense of meaning - and not the races - that make them come into 3 categories: Those that build culture, those that maintain it, and those that destroy.
                    Humans build culture, the innocent can only maintain it and the astral-fixed are destroying it constantly.


                    Val:
                    I like this term-astral fixed. It immediately brings up the question for me of Grace. What about Grace? Can it play a role here? And also what about the possibility of a group that just consumes? This is, off hand, what comes to mind when I consider the possibility of an egoless being. If they were not coming back for another incarnation then they could be hedonists, criminals, or just along for the ride. Also, what comes to mind is that they would not have higher senses-sense of thought as you have said or a sense of the other. Again living in the desensitized, hustle-bustle everyday reality of the West it is a tricky business to discern if this is indeed the case or not.

                    Ivan:
                    One may proclaim "all humans are born equal" as stated in the declarations of UN

                    and US. That is the same kind of half truth that Onkel Adolf has proclaimed: The other half of the racial theory.
                    Both are lethal weapons of ethical mass destruction when taken - exclusively - without the other part.


                    Val:
                    Some days you eat the bear and some days the bear eats you. Taking a "bear out to lunch with you" is easier sung than done.

                    Ivan:
                    Moreover, the paranoid insistence on pure doctrinal lines of thought is producing a spiritual China-Wall.


                    Val:
                    I agree with you on the one hand-I've always been a bit more aligned with the brave camp myself. But I don't think it's paranoid. This would be assigning a neurosis to a whole segment of people which could be the case but it could also be the case that there is a truly valid impulse being carried there. It could be they see something that I don't-obviously it happens. It could be the case that we are living out something like Golding's Lord of the Flies.-Val
                  • algorithmyst
                    Thanks again Frank! What a relief when I spot a post of yours: It s what I call Divine Mercy . Let s raise our voices and sing in gratitude. Amen. Sign:
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 2, 2004
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                      Thanks again Frank!

                      What a relief when I spot a post of yours: It's what I call "Divine
                      Mercy".
                      Let's raise our voices and sing in gratitude.

                      Amen.

                      Sign: Dorothy (I'm disguised, you know, I don't want anyone to
                      suspect who I really am...oopps...My mistake,I forgot that I haven't
                      an `I AM" of my own...sorry Atlantis' people)
                    • Ivan Gottel
                      Dear Jan, I agree with your attitude. Furthermore I haven t even implied that we should make any lists of the egoless ones; the reason in the first place
                      Message 10 of 26 , Nov 2, 2004
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                        Dear Jan,
                        I agree with your attitude. Furthermore I haven't even implied that we should make any lists of the egoless ones; the reason in the first place being, we are weaker financially, politically etc.; if there is one soul that is still possessing the potenitial for turther evolution, if there is one such among the 100 innocent and bad people, then let's forget about us making a list.
                        Moreover, I absolutelly agree that one has to have the deepest devotion towards all creation; creation is as per my experience none other then the Divinity, the Absolute Idea, Allah, Siva, Krishna or the Holy Trinity; call it in any language.
                        But in practice, the things get a little more complex then in theory.
                        If someone has not right now fallen from planet Claire (see B-52-s) then one should had not once met a malicious, malevolent, vicious guy.
                        And yes, you must not act morally wrong even towards Bin Laden or the men-in-black. A human is still bound by the Cosmic Rules of Good Conduct. And *they* exactly do play on this fact. They come you can say according to the divine need for us - to be tempted. They come to teach us about our own ego and how to control it and how to thread the middle line.
                        I don't agree with you that the egoless should be publicly treated or exposed. That is impossible. When you are in absolute minority in the public made of - *them*, then you can forget it.
                        And I can now repeat one thing - they are here to tempt us - they have a function - if we are better than them, then let's show it, be wiser; but don't think you will bring a devil to the court, they are not of the Christian-Carnival-Crampus type to be that easy stuff, they are cunning enough...
                        And they can leave whenever (the body of the possessed) they want and the dull, empty-hearted "human creature" remains down there, helpless as s-he could be.
                        As a sign of appreciation I'd finish with citing yourself, because this is undoubtelly what we should regards as common to us and the right means to treat the egoless as well:

                        But the Christ Impulse of Love and Compassion is
                        paramount, else we fall.
                         
                        The difference is what you in fact do, out of compassion. And these guys (egoless) will teach one "the rules of the house".
                         
                        With full devotion,
                        Ivan



                        Jan <starbirdgarden@...> wrote:
                        Hello Ivan,
                          The lecture I quoted needs, of course, to be read in its due sequence in
                        the book and studied in depth.  It may be available on the Steiner Archive,
                        but I've had difficulty in accessing the archive since the site was updated
                        and had no time to type more of the lecture last night. It is available in
                        book form from the Steiner Press. In the lecture quoted Rudolf Steiner goes
                        on to speak of the egoless beings and how they should be perceived and
                        treated and of the different causes of being egoless.
                          In matters of the Ego we always walk the knife edge of the two edged sword
                        and must be able to see behind any particular physical appearance.  A plant,
                        for example, may have yellow leaves because it is waterlogged or because it
                        is too dry. Accurate knowledge is all, or one may apply water where there is
                        too much, or withhold it where there is drought. We need to see the exact
                        cause behind the effect and act accordingly.  It is far from easy.
                          This knowledge needs treating with the utmost caution and inner
                        sensitivity. This cannot be overstated as there are great dangers in a
                        misuse of such revelation, which was given by Rudolf Steiner discretely and
                        privately to a group of priests whom he trusted to have a certain spiritual
                        maturity.  (He always saw the potential for development in people and
                        responded to that possibility even if it did not always later develop and
                        bear the fruit he had hoped for, still he planted the seeds.)
                           A deep inner sensitivity and spiritual delicacy is necessary in
                        approaching this, in fact it is the actual foundation of the development of
                        the spiritual faculties necessary to make any kind of diagnosis as to the
                        state of another human being's ego development. Always a very risky act and
                        open to a Luciferic self love deception!   For me, publishing on the
                        internet a list of those with or without egos is utterly without that
                        necessary sensitivity.  This is not to say that we do not have our own
                        experiences in this matter, but they must always be treated with the
                        reverence necessary in spiritual development, or there occurs a hardening
                        which becomes an obstacle, like a cataract on an eye lens so that vision is
                        distorted and darkened.
                          The other necessity in approaching this subject is a deep relationship
                        with Christ, which brings the necessary compassion. We all have much further
                        to go on this one!  Without that it degenerates into that Elitist Occultism
                        of the Dark brotherhoods and Lodges whose aim is to make all of us egoless
                        beings, amenable to herding, selective eugenic breeding, factory farming and
                        devouring, using us as raw material as we presently abuse and use the
                        animals, forcing them down into a plant kingdom status - as if they had no
                        astral bodies.  Therefore they are spoken of as 'product' or 'crop'.  We saw
                        a kind of rehearsal of their future intentions regarding us in the Nazi and
                        Stalinist concentration camps. (We should be aware, incidentally,  that in
                        our complicity in forcing the animals into a lower kingdom we create a
                        vaccuum which sucks humanity down into the animal state.)
                          This question of egolessness should, I maintain, certainly not be linked
                        in any way with race for example, again a fundamental basis of certain
                        nationalistic Occultists themselves linked to fallen Folk Spirits.  There
                        are many pitfalls here, many false paths, and we cannot be too wary.
                          The Ego, Rudolf Steiner tells us, never actually incarnates but shines in
                        from above.  Fitfully, in most cases!  And there are many reasons why that
                        shining in is impeded or prevented; drugs - both illegal and medical -
                        vaccination, mental illness, possession, black magical practice and on and
                        on.  Each case of supposed egolessness must be treated circumspectly and
                        uniquely, and we must have a very good reason for bringing any suspected
                        case to public attention. Equally, we must not ignore the phenomenon. Study
                        and research is vital.
                          Unfortunately I have been too busy recently to read everything on this
                        thread, so apologize if others have made these points already.  I join with
                        others on the list in welcoming your thoughts and any light that we can
                        collectively shed on this condition, which will become ever more urgent and
                        apparent in the world.  But the Christ Impulse of Love and Compassion is
                        paramount, else we fall.
                        Jan
                         
                         



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                      • Ivan Gottel
                        Dear Val, Ivan: The coming and implantation of I AM is through Christ. The ego, on the other hand, is said to had been implanted in seed-form in the middle of
                        Message 11 of 26 , Nov 3, 2004
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                          Dear Val,
                          Ivan:
                          The coming and implantation of I AM is through Christ.
                          The ego, on the other hand, is said to had been implanted in seed-form in the middle of the Atlantis evolution, in the time ahriman has come to the stage in the earth evolution. The ego was nourished and cherished by Jahve; he was one of the Elohimi who reflected the light of the I AM from the sun upon the earth to make the humanity gradually ripen for the coming of the direct light of the 7 Elohimi or Pleroma, as Christ.
                          The ego serves as a "flower-bed" to take in the I AM that is the divine essence of Universe as pure Being.
                          The I AM and the ego this way are firmly distinguished by RS.

                          The I AM can be attained by any beings, but not incorporated, not individualized by them all. That is the main difference.

                          A demon has been able to attain liberation, e.g. Moksha or Mukti or Nirvana or Bliss of the Absolute Being - traditionally.
                          Val:
                          I have read these lectures before and I did not remember this. What I do remember is a lecture about the I AM consciousness coming initially through Christ and then gradually coming more and more through all of humanity. I did not get out of this book that the majority of the people walking around do not have egos so I must have missed Lecture 13 somehow-stranger things have happened. But also, you are remembering a quote regarding a past epoch that perhaps has bearing on the term "supernumerary." I am still interested in finding this quote and perhaps someone else on the list knows of it.


                          Val:
                          The "cast-down demons" are as I think Bradford put it "weaving in and out" of our astral bodies all the time. They are implanted so deep as to be influencing our language and thus the medium of our own thinking and our communication with "the other." So I agree with you here-they are both among us and in us.
                          Ivan:
                          There are at least a dozen of categories of these spirits inhabiting people; I never went for the exact number. The handling of them is different in each case.

                          Usually, the gradients of the "nastier ones" go from Luciferic, through Ahrimanic (heavier case) towards Mammonic, Asuric and Sorathic. (not Socratic ;)

                          There are at least 3 categories/gradints of each group. And there are also many rather-animal-looking "freelancers".

                          Knowing what lies in a "person" makes one's life easier.

                          One doesn't need this stuff so much if one is doing sitting office job; things are different if you meet a lot of people.


                          Ivan:

                          We better start seeing with our spirit - who is belonging to us, and who is not.


                          Val:
                          Now here is a whole fascinating area of research-how to start seeing with the spirit? How is truth and untruth discerned in the Spiritual World? 

                          Ivan:

                          This is not in the spiritual world. This is here in the world of everyday people. Don't mix this with the spiritual world. They are exactly cast down from there, by Michael (Indra).

                          Val:

                          How do we know when an egoless being is present?

                          Ivan:

                          You can feel you are "like" talking to noone. There is no one accepting or receiving what you convay. You feel you are talking to an abyss and all your effort is wasted. But this is not general. Some of them can show signs of high "intelligence" and "understanding". But with the concept - of some ones being egoless - you sall be well equipped to see.
                          Some categories have special "symptoms" like gazing into emptiness (See J. Roberts, N.Kidman etc).

                          Some play cool, some play easy-going, some play though, but they all just - play.There is no weight in it, no real ego in the game.

                          So you are right. Concepts do open our eyes, They are like filters on our glasses. Once you have one adequate concept, you are able to start seeing what the concept is dealing with.

                          These trick with concepts as filters on glasses - for example - some of these guys like to use - "working with gossips".
                          They put you a concept on and you see someone with different eyes.

                          So why not use their trick - their? Wait a minute.
                          Occult Science exactly has the meaning to enable people to use the right type of glasses - concepts. Concepts are going to enable people to see into the spirit-worlds.

                          Val:
                          I like this term-astral fixed.

                          Ivan:

                          The innocent are etherically fixed.

                          Val:

                          It immediately brings up the question for me of Grace. What about Grace? Can it play a role here? And also what about the possibility of a group that just consumes?
                          Ivan: Visit Australia. But not for Grace.
                          Grace as I found it, is unpredictable and unknowledgeable; it comes from God.

                          By the way the word Shiva means "the Gracrfull" just to counter act some insinuations. Shiva is consciousness.

                          Someone has rightly consluded Shiva has luciferic characteristics. He comes to set one free from the clutches of material life. He negates the values of material life, e.g. life in the world. The Divine Trinity Itself can be said of possessing the three principles as do Ahriman, Lucifer and Christ or Michael. That is how the world comes about and why it does so. That doesn't mean Shiva works for Lucifer ;;))
                          Val:
                          This is, off hand, what comes to mind when I consider the possibility of an egoless being. If they were not coming back for another incarnation then they could be hedonists, criminals, or just along for the ride.

                          Ivan: Hedonists who are able to enjoy with their senses and sensual soul are not egoless! This ability of sensual joy is exactly a sign of a human.

                          Refer this to all the sexual suppresion going on in the world.
                          But right you are, their main principle is guided by the insight that there is no re-incarnation (for them); so they behave accordingly; but this doesn't tell us much; some may pursue a carrier! And many do. Look at Donald Grafield (name modified for privacy purpose ;) , Dick the Chained, and Bush the Dick.

                          They can play hedonists, they can play golf but the question is if they feel anything or they just float in images - in astral pictures they pursue.

                          Val:

                          Also, what comes to mind is that they would not have higher senses-sense of thought as you have said or a sense of the other. Again living in the desensitized, hustle-bustle everyday reality of the West it is a tricky business to discern if this is indeed the case or not.

                          Ivan:

                          Yes. See if they can enjoy anything: music, sauna, turkish bath...

                          Or they just fit themselves into the picture, do it for a "reason" etc.

                          Here we find an interesting difference between the sexuality for the appeacing of urges, drives and natural necessity - and sexual *desire* for joy, for coming together with the other, for sensual *pleasure*.
                          We are nowadays able to speak more open; in the traditions, the leaders couldn't go into these details because they could had been asked - how they know ;)

                          Nowadays we don't need leaders, so one can take it easier ;)

                          Now (some might be sexually *and* ideologically offended here:)

                          ...
                          You might think of when you made love. And compare it to all the many idiots who rush for the relief as they can't bear, can't confront their instinct... They certinly don't make love.

                          And the whole range of taboos had been meant in the time of the sensual soul and around it - for people not to just get lost in the - second version of sex.
                          The first one has nothing to do with what is publicly named as such.

                          The astral-fixed are in it for the image itself, for the urge that they can't confront (being one with the astral) for prestige and for (God bless James Redfield) stealing other's energy.
                          All the (someone, Frank?) mentioned sado-mazochism, then domination but not as open games, but as hiden agenda, are ways of stealing other's energy.

                          And why the egoless are the only ones who are incapable of having their own source of energy?

                          Because the source (rather a divine channel) of genuine psychological energy is exactly the ego.


                          Val:
                          Some days you eat the bear and some days the bear eats you. Taking a "bear out to lunch with you" is easier sung than done.

                          Ivan: do you mean the BYO (bring your own) restaurants? ;)


                          Ivan:

                          Moreover, the paranoid insistence on pure doctrinal lines of thought is producing a spiritual China-Wall.

                          Ivan ads, I say "paranoid insistence", I don't say paranoid people.

                          Val:
                          I agree with you on the one hand-I've always been a bit more aligned with the brave camp myself. But I don't think it's paranoid. This would be assigning a neurosis to a whole segment of people which could be the case but it could also be the case that there is a truly valid impulse being carried there.

                          Ivan: I agreed. Some should work on cleansing the data; but they should not avoid *cleansing* any data. I most appreciate the "guardians of the fire of knowledge".

                          I even think it is fruitful if the "faithful" and the "brave" are in constant "friction". This inner dialectic antagonism is probably the driving force of progress.

                          Then some of us go fishing and the other ones clean the fish brought back home.

                          Greetings,

                          Ivan


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                        • wdenval@aol.com
                          Hello Ivan, ... Val: And then this is also where the seeding or not of the flower bed in Atlantis would come into play. I am still looking. ... Val: Now
                          Message 12 of 26 , Nov 3, 2004
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                            Hello Ivan,

                            Ivan:
                            The coming and implantation of I AM is through Christ.
                            The ego, on the other hand, is said to had been implanted in seed-form in the middle of the Atlantis evolution, in the time ahriman has come to the stage in the earth evolution. The ego was nourished and cherished by Jahve; he was one of the Elohimi who reflected the light of the I AM from the sun upon the earth to make the humanity gradually ripen for the coming of the direct light of the 7 Elohimi or Pleroma, as Christ.
                            The ego serves as a "flower-bed" to take in the I AM that is the divine essence of Universe as pure Being.
                            The I AM and the ego this way are firmly distinguished by RS.

                            The I AM can be attained by any beings, but not incorporated, not individualized by them all. That is the main difference.


                            Val:

                            And then this is also where the "seeding" or not of the "flower bed" in Atlantis would come into play. I am still looking.


                            Ivan:
                            There are at least a dozen of categories of these spirits inhabiting people; I never went for the exact number. The handling of them is different in each case.

                            Usually, the gradients of the "nastier ones" go from Luciferic, through Ahrimanic (heavier case) towards Mammonic, Asuric and Sorathic. (not Socratic ;)

                            There are at least 3 categories/gradints of each group. And there are also many rather-animal-looking "freelancers".

                            Knowing what lies in a "person" makes one's life easier.

                            One doesn't need this stuff so much if one is doing sitting office job; things are different if you meet a lot of people.


                            Val:

                            Now here is a question. I have chosen to treat everyone in the same manner-as a human being even when something else is clearly represented. And I think I get that these individuals then can be sucking my energy and draining me of life forces by means of my free extension of myself to them. But to disecern the various entities and the appropriate manner with which to deal with them seems like it would take alot of energy as well. It seems like it would almost be a full-time occupation. So if I did this, it seems to me that I would be expending my energy and life forces to protect myself -either way I'm losing energy. On the surface of it I think your strategy is the better one if, if, IF, there truly is no ego involved.

                            But there's something else to be considered here, maybe just some remnant of my long-age religious indoctrination, maybe a total fig-newton of my imagination but my experience has been that when I viewed evil I was never looking through a one-way glass. I viewed evil analytically, categorically, intellectually or in any manner other than phenomonologically, that evil was able to view me as well. And because, Ivan, because I too have adverse forces "in me" it served to activate them, to agitate them. Come to think of it what it gave me was a burning second life body-sort of a spiritual heartburn. Now I have to consider, did I abadon this strategy because I had some roadblocks set up or did I abandon it because it wasn't healthy?

                            Val:
                            Now here is a whole fascinating area of research-how to start seeing with the spirit? How is truth and untruth discerned in the Spiritual World? 

                            Ivan:

                            This is not in the spiritual world. This is here in the world of everyday people. Don't mix this with the spiritual world. They are exactly cast down from there, by Michael (Indra).

                            Val:

                            I think this is an excellent point of discernment. So we are here in the physical, material world-we are not going to be able to discern the ultimate truth of an individual by our physical feelings in any given encounter. Do we agree on that? Because beyond that, I think that there are capacities that can be developed to discern the Spiritual REALITY behind the physical situation. Also, I think there is the potential of seeing the Spiritual TRUTH but it is an entirely different capacity.
                            Related but different and important to discern. Somewhat like the two distinct senses of taste and smell-even though there is a relationship they represent two different senses.


                            Ivan:
                            So why not use their trick - their? Wait a minute.
                            Occult Science exactly has the meaning to enable people to use the right type of glasses - concepts. Concepts are going to enable people to see into the spirit-worlds.

                            Val:

                            I'd like to explore the difference between reality and truth.


                            Ivan ads, I say "paranoid insistence", I don't say paranoid people.


                            Val:
                            Yes, you did and I apologize for my paranoid response.

                            Ivan:

                            I even think it is fruitful if the "faithful" and the "brave" are in constant "friction". This inner dialectic antagonism is probably the driving force of progress.
                            Then some of us go fishing and the other ones clean the fish brought back home.


                            Val:

                            I agree with you here especially because while I could fish all day I would never eat if I had to clean them. But this only works-this division of labor if there is a common vision based on some common understanding of reality. Otherwise, humanity is divided by their perspectives and can only hope for outside intervention. Witness The Rapture. So too, is the AS divided and awaiting in some cases-the Sixth Epoch.

                            Warm Regards,

                            Val
                          • hatscaps66
                            Hi, I just joined this list. I don t know much about anthroposophy. At age 14 I went to ransake the library as usual, in search of something to fill my
                            Message 13 of 26 , Nov 3, 2004
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                              Hi,

                              I just joined this list. I don't know much about anthroposophy. At
                              age 14 I went to ransake the library as usual, in search of
                              something to fill my tv-deprived afternoons with, and saw this book
                              called THE OOOOOCCUUUULT SCIEEEEEENCE. How to resist a title like
                              that? I sneaked out with it and eagerly started to read it but soon
                              came across this extremely detailed and elaborated description of
                              the angelic hierarchy which immediately put me in the "how the fuck
                              does this guy know that?" mode. I stopped reading and took the darn
                              book back, not wanting to get into the part where the author
                              addresses the seraphims underwear style or their favorite soap opera
                              character, which things going as they were I believed was sure to
                              happen.

                              Anyway, that was practically the end of it, my knowledge of
                              anthroposophy that is. Of anthroposophers I know more. They come in
                              all shapes and sizes and inclinations and so on, and unfortunately
                              there is a significant amount of them who are of the Hollier-Than-
                              Thou persuasion, pompous and self-righteous, or plain kooky, or
                              both, in any case basically a pain in the ass and completely unlike
                              the majority who seem to have respect for different opinions and
                              ways of being and don't come to you saying "hey, you're going to
                              reincarnate a million painful times more if you watch reality shows
                              or use swear words or don't try very, very hard to become a Better
                              Human Being," and shit of the sort. Since normal, agreable
                              anthroposophers seem to be well under-represented in the net it was
                              a nice surprise to come across this list which appears to have a
                              lighter nature and, with a few exceptions (keep away, please!) , no
                              preaching assholes.

                              In that library I mentioned there was also a childrens' book, one
                              of my favorites, called "Sofia's Disasters", which was all about
                              this little girl, very curious and stubborn, who is always
                              disobeying adults orders and paying a high price for it though it
                              doesn't seem to teach her anything - thank heavens - for in the very
                              next chapter there she goes screwing up again. Like, we see her
                              eating a huge bowl of fresh and delicious cream that was meant for
                              guests, all by herself, and then having a horrible stomachache
                              later, or she decides to cut her own eyebrows and the result is
                              terrible but her mom forces her to attend school anyway, where she
                              undergoes unspeakable humiliation. Even so there she is just a few
                              pages later raiding the cooking jar or playing with something that
                              burns her and so on. I was going to name myself after her but since
                              this is the moderators name already not to mention for some reason a
                              noun with some other, serious meanings amongst anthroposophers , I
                              decided instead to adopt GRISELDA, as in the Hans Christian
                              Andersen fairy tale, and since I grabbed his character name, why not
                              grab his own surname as well, right? Although I remember Griselda as
                              a vaguely gloomy character who dies or turns into a witch, it may
                              have also been something completely different, maybe she was turned
                              into a swan for a while and then went back to being a princess, or a
                              fair countrywoman that marries the king, so as long as I don't go
                              check, it should be ok. Anyway, Griselda Andersen it's here. And in
                              case you're asking yourself "WHY not use your own REAL name???" , I
                              say: a) you're probably one of those preachy bores so please refer
                              to my request above, and b), why not? It's the internet for fucks
                              sake, let's have some fun.

                              Chaotic greetings,

                              Griselda
                            • Ivan Gottel
                              Hello ol friend! Before I start my debate with you, I d just like to emphasize again something I have said before. Good people out of loyalty like very much
                              Message 14 of 26 , Nov 3, 2004
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                                Hello ol' friend!

                                Before I start my debate with you, I'd just like to emphasize again something I have said before. Good people out of loyalty like very much to say "we" when there is speech about the not-so-good-ones. I'd like to convey my sypathies to US-citizens fromm this list who have all expressed noble and wise thoughts in the last series of mails. And again, they say "we". But are we then bushes, white anglo-saxon protestants (wasp) or what? I send you all - my love undivided love and prayers! I can't ask you the impossible, namely not to ask if you had an ego ;)
                                 
                                Val:

                                And then this is also where the "seeding" or not of the "flower bed" in Atlantis would come into play. I am still looking.

                                Ivan:
                                You have this also from Jesus. The comparison/parabole belongs to his testimony.

                                Val:

                                Now here is a question. I have chosen to treat everyone in the same manner-as a human being even when something else is clearly represented.

                                Ivan: You are most welcome to try so. I was doing it some 40 years in this life only. and i had terrible conscience problems - because when I knew they were okay, then I had to be wrong...

                                Val:

                                And I think I get that these individuals then can be sucking my energy and draining me of life forces by means of my free extension of myself to them. But to disecern the various entities and the appropriate manner with which to deal with them seems like it would take alot of energy as well. It seems like it would almost be a full-time occupation. So if I did this, it seems to me that I would be expending my energy and life forces to protect myself -either way I'm losing energy. On the surface of it I think your strategy is the better one if, if, IF, there truly is no ego involved.

                                Ivan:

                                My experience was that by differentiating good from evil and recognizing who those guys were who had made my life sadder than it should had been, I've got my energies back from them - believe or not - almost I can't believe ;)
                                This full time occupation was really overwhelming for about one year. They were like sitting everywhere around in the room, all the astral creatures (now I'm not talking of the egoless) they were like being bored, looking for some mean or "instinctive" (read:vulgar)fun... but this seems to be like a purgtorium before the gates of the higher worlds get opened. This is like a spirit-in-between-world (geistige Zwischenwelt).
                                Your motivation should not that much be a kind of self-protection, as it never can get worse than it was before you knew "the game", it can only get better, so there is not too much cause for fear; knowing releases one from fear.

                                Our best protection is the higher beings whom we can evoke to guide us and protect us, be it Michael, Christ or others. Each category of demons has its own most feared enemy among the pure beings.

                                Val:

                                But there's something else to be considered here, maybe just some remnant of my long-age religious indoctrination, maybe a total fig-newton of my imagination but my experience has been that when I viewed evil I was never looking through a one-way glass. I viewed evil analytically, categorically, intellectually or in any manner other than phenomonologically, that evil was able to view me as well. And because, Ivan, because I too have adverse forces "in me" it served to activate them, to agitate them.

                                Ivan:

                                You are damn right! sorry for expression.But that is exactly their purpose! It seems to me that - but we'd heard this before from RS in between lines or...- as soon as the evil forces make a tactic, the heavenly forces gather and discuss how they can turn the evil into good. They, the evil, actually help you fight the evil within yourself! This is most probably the way evil and good function in the cosmos! Reminds me of Goethe's introductory verse in Dr Faustus'- "I'm the particle of the ancient force that always seking evil, just good is able to create" uttered by Mephisto.

                                So I admit and underline herewith, you were all right, we should not condemn he evil. I only have been telling that we need to know these guys.

                                Val:

                                Come to think of it what it gave me was a burning second life body-sort of a spiritual heartburn. Now I have to consider, did I abadon this strategy because I had some roadblocks set up or did I abandon it because it wasn't healthy?

                                Ivan: What strategy have you abandoned? Have you started seeing thse things before and stopped?

                                Val:

                                I think this is an excellent point of discernment. So we are here in the physical, material world-we are not going to be able to discern the ultimate truth of an individual by our physical feelings in any given encounter. Do we agree on that? Because beyond that, I think that there are capacities that can be developed to discern the Spiritual REALITY behind the physical situation. Also, I think there is the potential of seeing the Spiritual TRUTH but it is an entirely different capacity.
                                Related but different and important to discern. Somewhat like the two distinct senses of taste and smell-even though there is a relationship they represent two different senses.

                                Ivan: This is still the physical world, but what we se in it is spiritual. The spirit beings had been cast down to the material world. What we see is the spiritual reality behind them.


                                Val:

                                I'd like to explore the difference between reality and truth.

                                Ivan: If reality comes from "res" e.g. thing - then things are not the truth - ?

                                But I "fear'" truth has plenty of gradients. One could say there are levels of truth. Depending upon the height one stands upon. Like when you coimb the mountain. Because on a higher level, evil is not evil but just good - inverted there below...


                                Ivan ads, I say "paranoid insistence", I don't say paranoid people.



                                Val:
                                Yes, you did and I apologize for my paranoid response.

                                Ivan: Just go on; I don't really like uncritical friends - I don't know what to do with them; better scrutinize me as I may make mistakes and then you could only help me.

                                I usually try to select my expressions thoroughly- ask me why ;) - exactly because I was surrounded with perhaps all categories of demons waiting for my failures and crticising me. But some time ago, hey've gone; I have a peace of mind...

                                And believe me, a constructive criticism (yours)  is not at all similar to the malevolent one or the easy-going one.
                                Ivan:


                                I even think it is fruitful if the "faithful" and the "brave" are in constant "friction". This inner dialectic antagonism is probably the driving force of progress.
                                Then some of us go fishing and the other ones clean the fish brought back home.


                                Val:

                                I agree with you here especially because while I could fish all day I would never eat if I had to clean them. But this only works-this division of labor if there is a common vision based on some common understanding of reality. Otherwise, humanity is divided by their perspectives and can only hope for outside intervention. Witness The Rapture. So too, is the AS divided and awaiting in some cases-the Sixth Epoch.

                                Ivan: Yes, we need to clean ourselves that fish, too; we can't rely on the faithful to do that, and they couldn't all the time do that, they would have better things to do ;)

                                Maybe we should not divide these sports?

                                Best to you!

                                p.s. do you work with patients one on one etc.? (I'm not working with patients but with business partners. A commercialized shrink am I ;)


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                              • wdenval@aol.com
                                Dear Ivan, That is quite alot of food for thought and I am going to think on it. As Simone has rightly observed I do not put my neurons together all to rapidly
                                Message 15 of 26 , Nov 3, 2004
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                                  Dear Ivan,

                                  That is quite alot of food for thought and I am going to think on it. As Simone has rightly observed I do not put my neurons together all to rapidly not being wired as tight as I used to be-so it may take me awhile.

                                  Now here is a question. I have chosen to treat everyone in the same manner-as a human being even when something else is clearly represented.

                                  Ivan: You are most welcome to try so. I was doing it some 40 years in this life only. and i had terrible conscience problems - because when I knew they were okay, then I had to be wrong...

                                  Val: I get this. This is also what bothered Simone, I think-the sense of immorality of exercising one's conscience/view of morality over others. Moral technique would only be applicable if you were dealing with other ego beings or, like me, think that you are.

                                  Ivan:

                                  My experience was that by differentiating good from evil and recognizing who those guys were who had made my life sadder than it should had been, I've got my energies back from them - believe or not - almost I can't believe ;)
                                  This full time occupation was really overwhelming for about one year. They were like sitting everywhere around in the room, all the astral creatures (now I'm not talking of the egoless) they were like being bored, looking for some mean or "instinctive" (read:vulgar)fun... but this seems to be like a purgtorium before the gates of the higher worlds get opened. This is like a spirit-in-between-world (geistige Zwischenwelt).
                                  Your motivation should not that much be a kind of self-protection, as it never can get worse than it was before you knew "the game", it can only get better, so there is not too much cause for fear; knowing releases one from fear.

                                  Our best protection is the higher beings whom we can evoke to guide us and protect us, be it Michael, Christ or others. Each category of demons has its own most feared enemy among the pure beings.


                                  Val:

                                  No, you are right it's NOT to protect yourself but perhaps in order to keep on keeping on, in order not to have to withdraw. In order to protect whatever investment you/I have in any given situation or in life. The scripture about what shall it profit a man to gain the whole world comes to mind.

                                  Val:

                                  But there's something else to be considered here, maybe just some remnant of my long-ago religious indoctrination, maybe a total fig-newton of my imagination but my experience has been that when I viewed evil I was never looking through a one-way glass. When I viewed evil analytically, categorically, intellectually or in any manner other than phenomonologically, that evil was able to view me as well. And because, Ivan, because I too have adverse forces "in me" it served to activate them, to agitate them.

                                  Ivan:

                                  You are damn right! sorry for expression.But that is exactly their purpose! It seems to me that - but we'd heard this before from RS in between lines or...- as soon as the evil forces make a tactic, the heavenly forces gather and discuss how they can turn the evil into good. They, the evil, actually help you fight the evil within yourself! This is most probably the way evil and good function in the cosmos! Reminds me of Goethe's introductory verse in Dr Faustus'- "I'm the particle of the ancient force that always seking evil, just good is able to create" uttered by Mephisto.

                                  So I admit and underline herewith, you were all right, we should not condemn he evil. I only have been telling that we need to know these guys.


                                  Val:
                                  I agree we need to know these guys. Again maybe we differ by a matter of degrees. The whole question of the role of evil is fascinating as is your above thought.

                                  Ivan: What strategy have you abandoned? Have you started seeing thse things before and stopped?

                                  Val:
                                  Yes, I think I said before that I agree with you regarding the effects, the experience of these beings, I just don't assign the same cause i.e. lack of ego. But specifically, I think it went on for more than a year, perhaps two or three. It was, for me, a living hell and I chose to disengage because of it's adverse effects on me and on my family. Again the phrase about wordly profit comes to mind. I was very conscious of my choice. I could not find a strategy to cope or develop the necessary mental scaffolding while actively experiencing the phenomona. So you might think-two or three years is a long time and it certainly was-I asked all the time how I could understand this but the question was always, being the egocentric being (or not) that I thought I was, was what does it mean for me, what is it telling me, what do I need to learn, do, see etc. It did occur to me that there was something wrong with everyone else but I never could understand how to deal with it or what it meant until I walked away.

                                  Now you're saying, if I understand you rightly, that a door opened up for you and you were able to walk through. That was not my experience, I was not admitted. I have to go now but hope we can talk later. You asked what I do-I work with young children.-Val
                                • hatscaps66
                                  Did I say anywhere in my convoluted e-mail that I wanted to study anything???I don t fucking think so. Thanks for the kind shitload offer anyway, Steve, but
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Nov 3, 2004
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                                    Did I say anywhere in my convoluted e-mail that I wanted to study
                                    anything???I don't fucking think so. Thanks for the kind shitload
                                    offer anyway, Steve, but you can keep the shitload to yourself, I
                                    don't need another shitload right now. Enjoy it.:-)
                                    Griselda


                                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                                    <sardisian01@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Well I'm an advocate for anybody who wants to make a fucking
                                    effort
                                    > to study anthroposophical spiritual science. And I mean really
                                    > study it. In other words, not just talk about it; just run around
                                    > the periphery of it. So there's a shitload of work to do if
                                    you're
                                    > really interested there Griselda.
                                    >
                                    > Steve
                                    >
                                  • wdenval@aol.com
                                    Hello again Ivan, I think where we left off I was saying that I had to disengage form some past situations where I was experiencing similar phenomena as you
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Nov 4, 2004
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                                      Hello again Ivan,

                                      I think where we left off I was saying that I had to disengage form some past situations where I was experiencing similar phenomena as you continue to experience. I think the critical difference is the egoless concept that you had/have. I did not have that key to unlock the door and I had to go around it. I'm still reading but I'd like to talk some more about the fishing. This came up for me recently, as my daughter had to read Lord of the Flies for her English class.

                                      When she was finished I asked her what she thought and she said, Well, I think if they had just had one girl on the island with them this never would have happened. We laughed about that a little bit and we talked about what could happen in the reverse situation-what books there might be about women left alone and to their own devices-but I thought it was an interesting insight.

                                      Because everything was okay in the beginning-there was a division of labor-there was some social order with two camps being formed, the hunters and the fire tenders. Then, through a series of mishaps the fire went untended and they missed the boat. That's my favorite part, not keeping the fire tended and missing the boat-but I digress. What happens next is instead of reorganizing and reestablishing themselves efficiently to meet their objectives they blame, shame, criticize and turn on each other. Does this sound remotely familiar to anyone?

                                      So, I could be wrong but I thought the story was about unchecked and unbalanced energy. And I think that it has bearing on the times we live in. Whether you are an anthroposophist seeing the Woman descending into our solar system crowned with the twelve constellations or a scientologist hearing the hum of the mother ship as she orbits you have indications that the times, really are a changing. Another ship is just out there past the horizon and it is approaching fast. And I think that it will take both camps working together to be able to lift our heads up to sight her, to signal her, and to guide her to shore.

                                      That's what I believe and what I've experienced is that working together is like sliding on mud, moving through molasses, swimming in quicksand. It's an uphill battle where people call you names, spit at you, and look like reptiles when they do so. I've had this experience on more than one occasion, I think you have too, and I know there are others on the list who have had this pleasure. Now for me, every time this occurs I have an enemy image that I have to work to deconstruct and understand and reincorporate. I have to do it lest I become fixated somehow-astraly fixed perhaps, with pre-formed prejudices and reflexes becoming increasingly my guide. But clearly something else is required to unite the camps-I think a common vision. Well, that's it for tonight-Val
                                    • Frank Thomas Smith
                                      My dear Griselda (nice name), Pray do not, repeat do not take what is written below as typical for the list - although the exit polls indicate otherwise. I
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Nov 4, 2004
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                                        My dear Griselda (nice name),
                                        Pray do not, repeat do not take what is written below as typical for the
                                        list - although the exit polls indicate otherwise. I
                                        mention this just in case you're thinking of absconding before you even
                                        unpack your undies.
                                        Frank

                                        Frank Thomas Smith
                                        http://SouthernCrossReview.org


                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Well I'm an advocate for anybody who wants to make a fucking effort
                                        > to study anthroposophical spiritual science. And I mean really
                                        > study it. In other words, not just talk about it; just run around
                                        > the periphery of it. So there's a shitload of work to do if you're
                                        > really interested there Griselda.
                                        >
                                        > Steve
                                        >
                                      • Frank Thomas Smith
                                        Unkind, Griselda. He s so full of shit he s got to unload it somewhere or risk spiritual scientific constipation. And he s picked here, when there s a
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Nov 4, 2004
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                                          Unkind, Griselda. He's so full of shit he's got to unload it somewhere or
                                          risk spiritual scientific constipation. And he's picked here, when there's a
                                          perfectly good WC (list) just around the corner. You wouldn't last 10
                                          minutes there btw.
                                          Thanks for making my day,
                                          Frank

                                          >
                                          > Did I say anywhere in my convoluted e-mail that I wanted to study
                                          > anything???I don't fucking think so. Thanks for the kind shitload
                                          > offer anyway, Steve, but you can keep the shitload to yourself, I
                                          > don't need another shitload right now. Enjoy it.:-)
                                          > Griselda
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                                          > <sardisian01@y...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Well I'm an advocate for anybody who wants to make a fucking
                                          > effort
                                          > > to study anthroposophical spiritual science. And I mean really
                                          > > study it. In other words, not just talk about it; just run around
                                          > > the periphery of it. So there's a shitload of work to do if
                                          > you're
                                          > > really interested there Griselda.
                                          > >
                                          > > Steve
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Sophia
                                          Dear Steve, ... For the record: This list has no likes or dislikes, so I assume you re referring to what your listmates like or don t like. Faithfully, Sophia
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Nov 4, 2004
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                                            Dear Steve,

                                            You wrote:

                                            I write what I choose, and if this list doesn't like it then I'll quit. 

                                            For the record: This list has no likes or dislikes, so I assume you're referring to what your listmates like or don't like.

                                            Faithfully,

                                            Sophia (moderator)
                                            http://www.geocities.com/anarchosophia/

                                          • Griselda Andersen
                                            Frank Thomas Smith wrote: My dear Griselda (nice name), - Thanks. Pray do not, repeat do not take what is written below as typical for the list - although the
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Nov 4, 2004
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                                              Frank Thomas Smith wrote:

                                              My dear Griselda (nice name),
                                              - Thanks.

                                              Pray do not, repeat do not take what is written below
                                              as typical for the
                                              list - although the exit polls indicate otherwise. I
                                              mention this just in case you're thinking of
                                              absconding (...)

                                              -Don't worry, it ain't happening.

                                              (...)there's a perfectly good WC (list) just around
                                              the corner. You wouldn't last 10
                                              minutes there btw.

                                              -"WC" list???Damn right I wouldn't last 10 min there
                                              -I am not shit, piss or bathroom fixture.
                                              See you around,
                                              Griselda


                                              __________________________________________________
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                                              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                                            • Ivan Gottel
                                              Dear Val, My time is also running out . I ll get the short conslusion through for you. Once you are working with patients - the whole attitude gets changed.
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Nov 4, 2004
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                                                Dear Val,
                                                My time is also "running out". I'll get the short conslusion through for you.
                                                Once you are working with patients - the whole attitude gets changed. You are then obliged to look for their ego in any case. You are obliged to try and heal that ego - or whatever there is, as there surely is something. You are supposed to work with full Christ-commitment, empathy, sympathy and understanding.
                                                It might happen that the demon would fly away - similarily to the situaltion when Jesus was chasing away demons - it can happen that a luciferic "lil' devil" flies away and is being redempted! But it can also happen that very soon an ahrimanic takes over the vacated room of the previous luciferic tenant - and our patient is behaving differently. In any case (not every) there is a soul-like creature in the person, like a wet sparrow, helpless and crying. The so called "treatment of the inner child" has to deal with this.
                                                We have a huge opportunity to reasearch, learn and help as a psychologist.
                                                It is highly important, in your case, you should look for the centre of their being; you are bound to reaserch the topic we were descussing, in a way. Becase you must address the inner centre of a child and not the 'tenants" if there are some surplus ones (besides the normally needed).
                                                It is very different in my sense as in business, where all is built (or is not) upon credibility and trust; I have to cut connections a.s,a.p., e.g. I must look for people I can trust.
                                                It is also different in private relations. I have friends who don't have ego; but they are more helpfull when it comes to help, to me then many highly evolved humans - these last being so overwhelmed with their own problems and demons surrounding them that one can not easily reach one.
                                                It is frustrating to me when behind my good fellow I can see no soul; he would like to find piece of mind but he can't get rid of his *identity* - or he's then lost; he can't simply relax lay back and let go, he must "24/7" play his role (impossible).
                                                Once again (on no more) for those that didn't take the message - just one part of the egoless are evil and that is because of their "boarding guest".
                                                One part is also dub'yous, flippy-floppy and they are the object-target of politicians; Dub'ya himself being a no-one, he's easy to get used by the financial oligarchy and conservative elements (euphemism for Mafia).
                                                Many egoless are a blessing to this world and they serve a very noble purpose.
                                                By the way, can se say that the higher hyerarchies have ego - once we learned that they have no choice but to do good and be good? And what's the problem with them?
                                                Ego is the destiny of the humans. It does not mean it is an obligatory hallmark for all beings in the universe.

                                                Val, for the time(s) being you can put the "egoless theory" on the shelf, but just search for the egos; I think you are most directly called upon to investigate.
                                                For me, it is a different thing, rather a precaution in my everyday life, "to see not to stumble upon a snake" and to have good company in my life; at the moment I do not work with people as a healer (of soul).
                                                I am honestly curious for your findings, whatever they might be.
                                                 
                                                All the best,
                                                Ivan
                                                wdenval@... wrote:
                                                Dear Ivan,

                                                That is quite alot of food for thought and I am going to think on it. As Simone has rightly observed I do not put my neurons together all to rapidly not being wired as tight as I used to be-so it may take me awhile.

                                                Now here is a question. I have chosen to treat everyone in the same manner-as a human being even when something else is clearly represented.

                                                Ivan: You are most welcome to try so. I was doing it some 40 years in this life only. and i had terrible conscience problems - because when I knew they were okay, then I had to be wrong...

                                                Val: I get this. This is also what bothered Simone, I think-the sense of immorality of exercising one's conscience/view of morality over others. Moral technique would only be applicable if you were dealing with other ego beings or, like me, think that you are.

                                                Ivan:

                                                My experience was that by differentiating good from evil and recognizing who those guys were who had made my life sadder than it should had been, I've got my energies back from them - believe or not - almost I can't believe ;)
                                                This full time occupation was really overwhelming for about one year. They were like sitting everywhere around in the room, all the astral creatures (now I'm not talking of the egoless) they were like being bored, looking for some mean or "instinctive" (read:vulgar)fun... but this seems to be like a purgtorium before the gates of the higher worlds get opened. This is like a spirit-in-between-world (geistige Zwischenwelt).
                                                Your motivation should not that much be a kind of self-protection, as it never can get worse than it was before you knew "the game", it can only get better, so there is not too much cause for fear; knowing releases one from fear.

                                                Our best protection is the higher beings whom we can evoke to guide us and protect us, be it Michael, Christ or others. Each category of demons has its own most feared enemy among the pure beings.


                                                Val:

                                                No, you are right it's NOT to protect yourself but perhaps in order to keep on keeping on, in order not to have to withdraw. In order to protect whatever investment you/I have in any given situation or in life. The scripture about what shall it profit a man to gain the whole world comes to mind.

                                                Val:

                                                But there's something else to be considered here, maybe just some remnant of my long-ago religious indoctrination, maybe a total fig-newton of my imagination but my experience has been that when I viewed evil I was never looking through a one-way glass. When I viewed evil analytically, categorically, intellectually or in any manner other than phenomonologically, that evil was able to view me as well. And because, Ivan, because I too have adverse forces "in me" it served to activate them, to agitate them.

                                                Ivan:

                                                You are damn right! sorry for expression.But that is exactly their purpose! It seems to me that - but we'd heard this before from RS in between lines or...- as soon as the evil forces make a tactic, the heavenly forces gather and discuss how they can turn the evil into good. They, the evil, actually help you fight the evil within yourself! This is most probably the way evil and good function in the cosmos! Reminds me of Goethe's introductory verse in Dr Faustus'- "I'm the particle of the ancient force that always seking evil, just good is able to create" uttered by Mephisto.

                                                So I admit and underline herewith, you were all right, we should not condemn he evil. I only have been telling that we need to know these guys.


                                                Val:
                                                I agree we need to know these guys. Again maybe we differ by a matter of degrees. The whole question of the role of evil is fascinating as is your above thought.

                                                Ivan: What strategy have you abandoned? Have you started seeing thse things before and stopped?

                                                Val:
                                                Yes, I think I said before that I agree with you regarding the effects, the experience of these beings, I just don't assign the same cause i.e. lack of ego. But specifically, I think it went on for more than a year, perhaps two or three. It was, for me, a living hell and I chose to disengage because of it's adverse effects on me and on my family. Again the phrase about wordly profit comes to mind. I was very conscious of my choice. I could not find a strategy to cope or develop the necessary mental scaffolding while actively experiencing the phenomona. So you might think-two or three years is a long time and it certainly was-I asked all the time how I could understand this but the question was always, being the egocentric being (or not) that I thought I was, was what does it mean for me, what is it telling me, what do I need to learn, do, see etc. It did occur to me that there was something wrong with everyone else but I never could understand how to deal with it or what it meant until I walked away.

                                                Now you're saying, if I understand you rightly, that a door opened up for you and you were able to walk through. That was not my experience, I was not admitted. I have to go now but hope we can talk later. You asked what I do-I work with young children.-Val


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                                              • Frank Thomas Smith
                                                ... There you go again, Steve. Who said you couldn t write what you please? Not me. Please also notice that I chastized Griselda for being unkind to you. I
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Nov 5, 2004
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                                                  Steve:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith"
                                                  > <franksmith@v...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Unkind, Griselda. He's so full of shit he's got to unload it
                                                  > somewhere or
                                                  > > risk spiritual scientific constipation. And he's picked here, when
                                                  > there's a
                                                  > > perfectly good WC (list) just around the corner. You wouldn't last
                                                  > 10
                                                  > > minutes there btw.
                                                  > > Thanks for making my day,
                                                  > > Frank
                                                  >
                                                  > First off Frank, fuck you. I write what I choose, and if this list
                                                  > doesn't like it then I'll quit. And what makes you think you're
                                                  > little rag is so special?
                                                  >
                                                  There you go again, Steve. Who said you couldn't write what you please? Not
                                                  me. Please also notice that I chastized Griselda for being unkind to you. I
                                                  did, though, mention "spiritual scientific constipation", which I suppose
                                                  could also be deemed unkind. Nevertheless, allow me to explain. Griselda - a
                                                  somewhat outspoken young lady (we assume she's a lady and a she) appears on
                                                  the scene saying she knows very little about anthroposophy, is interested
                                                  however, but is put off by "Hollier-Than-
                                                  Thou persuasion, pompous and self-righteous, or plain kooky, or both, in any
                                                  case basically a pain in the ass anthroposophers". She also told the story
                                                  of a little girl who was always being told what to do by grown-ups and who
                                                  rebelled - or something like that. So what do you do? You write:

                                                  "Well I'm an advocate for anybody who wants to make a fucking effort
                                                  to study anthroposophical spiritual science. And I mean really
                                                  study it. In other words, not just talk about it; just run around
                                                  the periphery of it. So there's a shitload of work to do if you're
                                                  really interested there Griselda."
                                                  sounding just like the schoolmasterly anthropop people who affect Griselda
                                                  negatively. So she told you what you could do with your shitload of work.
                                                  And I? Well, I tried to defend the rest of us by agreeing with her, but at
                                                  least I only used the "shit" metaphor rather than screaming "Fuck you
                                                  Frank!" - twice. I guess I can understand that though, if you felt provoked.
                                                  But if you are so easily upset by such gently provoking metaphors, I suggest
                                                  you develop more equanimity and true grit to survive here.
                                                  Cheeeers,
                                                  Frank



                                                  > And lastly, go fuck yourself you pompous snob. This is Anthroposophy
                                                  > Tomorrow, and I'm making my contribution to it as I see fit. If you
                                                  > think that cosmo-anthro-sopho is the future, then good. What's wrong
                                                  > with advocating fundamentals as well?
                                                  >
                                                  > Steve


                                                  > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Did I say anywhere in my convoluted e-mail that I wanted to study
                                                  > > > anything???I don't fucking think so. Thanks for the kind
                                                  > shitload
                                                  > > > offer anyway, Steve, but you can keep the shitload to yourself, I
                                                  > > > don't need another shitload right now. Enjoy it.:-)
                                                  > > > Griselda
                                                  > > >
                                                • Tarjei Straume
                                                  ... My 2c: Personally, I don t think anyone telling newcomers to make a fucking effort and do a shitload of work can possibly be talking about
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Nov 5, 2004
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                                                    At 15:19 05.11.2004, Frank wrote to Steve:

                                                    You write:

                                                    "Well I'm an advocate for anybody who wants to make a fucking effort to study anthroposophical spiritual science.  And I mean really study it.  In other words, not just talk about it; just run around the periphery of it.  So there's a shitload of work to do if you're really interested there Griselda."
                                                    sounding just like the schoolmasterly anthropop people who affect Griselda negatively.

                                                    My 2c:
                                                    Personally, I don't think anyone telling newcomers "to make a fucking effort" and "do a shitload of work" can possibly be talking about anthroposophically oriented spiritual science.

                                                    Rudolf Steiner:

                                                    "Once the student has found the beginnings of spiritual vision by means of such exercises, he may proceed to the contemplation of man himself. Simple phenomena of human life must first be chosen. But before making any attempt in this direction it is imperative for the student to strive for the absolute purity of his moral character. He must banish all through of ever using knowledge gained in this way for his own personal benefit. He must be convinced that he would never, under any circumstances, avail himself in an evil sense of any power he may gain over his fellow-creatures. For this reason, all who seek to discover through personal vision the secrets in human nature must follow the golden rule of true spiritual science. This golden rule is as follows: For every one step that you take in the pursuit of higher knowledge, take three steps in the perfection of your own character."

                                                    - Knowledge of the Higher Worlds, II The Stages of Initiation

                                                    http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA010/English/GA010_c02.html

                                                    The bottom line is that a person who knows nothing about karma and reincarnation and the Mystery of Golgotha and perhaps never heard of Rudolf Steiner may be a far, far better anthroposophist than someone who has memorized the Doctor's entire library and done a bunch of exercises but keeps spewing out a vocabulary from the sewer.

                                                    Rudolf Steiner again:

                                                    "Let us imagine that there is a man who knows nothing of the name of Jesus Christ, nothing of what is communicated in the Gospels, but that he understands the radical difference between the nature of wisdom and might and that of love. Such a man, even though he knows nothing of the Mystery of Golgotha, is a Christian in the truest sense. A man who knows that love is there for the paying of debts and brings no profit for the future, is a true Christian. To understand the nature of love - that is to be a Christian! Theosophy alone, Spiritual Science alone, with its teachings of karma and reincarnation, can make us into great egoists unless the impulse of love, the Christ Impulse, is added; only so can we acquire the power to overcome the egoism that may be generated by Spiritual Science. The balance is established by an understanding of the Christ Impulse. Spiritual Science is given to the world today because it is necessary for humanity, but in it lies the great danger that - if it is cultivated without the Christ Impulse, without the impulse of love - men will only increase their egoism, will actually breed egoism that lasts even beyond death. From this the conclusion must not be drawn that we should not cultivate Spiritual Science; rather we must learn to realize that understanding of the essential nature of love is an integral part of it."

                                                    - Love and its Meaning in the World, Zurich, 17th December, 1912, GA 143.

                                                    http://www.uncletaz.com/lovemeaning.html

                                                    Here again, it is crystal clear that spiritual wisdom and genuine Christianity are treasures embedded in a true understanding of love, not in knowledge and exercises and having done "a shitload of work" and "made a fucking effort".

                                                    Of course we can all write whatever we please, but disrespect should never take us by surprise if we also express ourselves disrespectfully.

                                                    Cheers,

                                                    Tarjei
                                                    http://uncletaz.com/

                                                  • wdenval@aol.com
                                                    In a message dated 11/05/2004 12:42:37 AM Mountain Standard Time, ivangottel ... Dear Ivan, I think you brought up a lot of interesting points in your last
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Nov 6, 2004
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                                                      In a message dated 11/05/2004 12:42:37 AM Mountain Standard Time, ivangottel writes:


                                                      Val, for the time(s) being you can put the "egoless theory" on the shelf, but just search for the egos; I think you are most directly called upon to investigate.
                                                      For me, it is a different thing, rather a precaution in my everyday life, "to see not to stumble upon a snake" and to have good company in my life; at the moment I do not work with people as a healer (of soul).
                                                      I am honestly curious for your findings, whatever they might be.


                                                      Dear Ivan,

                                                      I think you brought up a lot of interesting points in your last post. I do work with young children and have had to learn to look (in recent years) for the non-imbedded ego as these children not only come in "trailing clouds of glory" but they are living in them as well. The seedbed, whatever that inner form looks like is not very developed and one has to look elsewhere. Now I think it's a tragic misinterpretation to look upon these children as if they have no ego and no potential for ego. Not that I think you would-as you said in your last post I work with children and have to keep on keeping a certain perspective. And I think it was Jan who mentioned that this concept cannot be applied to the children. But the thing is that I am very aware of people who do. They say, oh, nothing going on in there and then write these kids off as defective in a core or fundamental way.

                                                      So you can see why I was very much interested in your thoughts on this subject and what the underlying premise might be. Now that I know, I think the knowledge will be extremely helpful in my day to day life. But beyond this, this greater understanding of where my fellows may be coming from you have raised a basic metaphysical question which I will continue to explore.

                                                      Where I am right now with it is in taking the two being types as a premise certain questions arise as to how I could know this or discern this and I will have to continue working here. Then there are the ethical questions which arise and I think the dual-human theory has some positive aspects in this area. For example, if I am in a meeting with several others and all things are equal-we are all present and accounted for my moral obligation to the group might be different from if I am the sole ego present. And this could mean simply that for all intents and purposes the decisions are not being directed by the "I's" of the other individuals present. It may be very important to discern who or what I am dealing with now that I have a concept with which to do so. I suspect that it is.

                                                      This is about as far as I have wrestled with this at the moment. When I contemplate a political system or social structure that would follow from this or the associated aesthetics it all kind of falls apart for me. But as far as the ethics are concerned I think there are lessons for me here.

                                                      And I totally get the energy thing-you cannot associate with these beings day in and day out any more than I could. We both distance ourselves from them but in different ways. Egolessness aside-I'd like to put out something for the list on the subject of this energy drain. Since Gemini (ego-sense) came up on this list and since Gemini/Sagitarius has come up for everyone, for instance, in the form of cold binary technology and planes as arrows I would like to point out that there is a very real energy drain going on here.  For those that are interested in a scientific investigation I think Joseph Chilton Pearce and others have published on the subject of the human heart as a transmitter/receiver of energy. In math one could look at the torus formation. But questions of how this energy form is created and maintained as well as how it is debilitated could certainly be researched.-Val

                                                    • kmlightseeker
                                                      Well said, Tarjei. Thanks, Keith ... effort to ... it. In ... interested there ... Griselda ... means of ... Simple ... attempt ... of ever ... must be ...
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Nov 12, 2004
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Well said, Tarjei.


                                                        Thanks,

                                                        Keith


                                                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Tarjei Straume
                                                        <cyberuncle@c...> wrote:
                                                        > At 15:19 05.11.2004, Frank wrote to Steve:
                                                        >
                                                        > >You write:
                                                        > >
                                                        > >"Well I'm an advocate for anybody who wants to make a fucking
                                                        effort to
                                                        > >study anthroposophical spiritual science. And I mean really study
                                                        it. In
                                                        > >other words, not just talk about it; just run around the periphery of
                                                        > >it. So there's a shitload of work to do if you're really
                                                        interested there
                                                        > >Griselda."
                                                        > >sounding just like the schoolmasterly anthropop people who affect
                                                        Griselda
                                                        > >negatively.
                                                        >
                                                        > My 2c:
                                                        > Personally, I don't think anyone telling newcomers "to make a fucking
                                                        > effort" and "do a shitload of work" can possibly be talking about
                                                        > anthroposophically oriented spiritual science.
                                                        >
                                                        > Rudolf Steiner:
                                                        >
                                                        > "Once the student has found the beginnings of spiritual vision by
                                                        means of
                                                        > such exercises, he may proceed to the contemplation of man himself.
                                                        Simple
                                                        > phenomena of human life must first be chosen. But before making any
                                                        attempt
                                                        > in this direction it is imperative for the student to strive for the
                                                        > absolute purity of his moral character. He must banish all through
                                                        of ever
                                                        > using knowledge gained in this way for his own personal benefit. He
                                                        must be
                                                        > convinced that he would never, under any circumstances, avail
                                                        himself in an
                                                        > evil sense of any power he may gain over his fellow-creatures. For this
                                                        > reason, all who seek to discover through personal vision the secrets in
                                                        > human nature must follow the golden rule of true spiritual science.
                                                        This
                                                        > golden rule is as follows: For every one step that you take in the
                                                        pursuit
                                                        > of higher knowledge, take three steps in the perfection of your own
                                                        character."
                                                        >
                                                        > - Knowledge of the Higher Worlds, II The Stages of Initiation
                                                        >
                                                        > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA010/English/GA010_c02.html
                                                        >
                                                        > The bottom line is that a person who knows nothing about karma and
                                                        > reincarnation and the Mystery of Golgotha and perhaps never heard of
                                                        Rudolf
                                                        > Steiner may be a far, far better anthroposophist than someone who has
                                                        > memorized the Doctor's entire library and done a bunch of exercises but
                                                        > keeps spewing out a vocabulary from the sewer.
                                                        >
                                                        > Rudolf Steiner again:
                                                        >
                                                        > "Let us imagine that there is a man who knows nothing of the name of
                                                        Jesus
                                                        > Christ, nothing of what is communicated in the Gospels, but that he
                                                        > understands the radical difference between the nature of wisdom and
                                                        might
                                                        > and that of love. Such a man, even though he knows nothing of the
                                                        Mystery
                                                        > of Golgotha, is a Christian in the truest sense. A man who knows
                                                        that love
                                                        > is there for the paying of debts and brings no profit for the
                                                        future, is a
                                                        > true Christian. To understand the nature of love - that is to be a
                                                        > Christian! Theosophy alone, Spiritual Science alone, with its
                                                        teachings of
                                                        > karma and reincarnation, can make us into great egoists unless the
                                                        impulse
                                                        > of love, the Christ Impulse, is added; only so can we acquire the
                                                        power to
                                                        > overcome the egoism that may be generated by Spiritual Science. The
                                                        balance
                                                        > is established by an understanding of the Christ Impulse. Spiritual
                                                        Science
                                                        > is given to the world today because it is necessary for humanity,
                                                        but in it
                                                        > lies the great danger that - if it is cultivated without the Christ
                                                        > Impulse, without the impulse of love - men will only increase their
                                                        egoism,
                                                        > will actually breed egoism that lasts even beyond death. From this the
                                                        > conclusion must not be drawn that we should not cultivate Spiritual
                                                        > Science; rather we must learn to realize that understanding of the
                                                        > essential nature of love is an integral part of it."
                                                        >
                                                        > - Love and its Meaning in the World, Zurich, 17th December, 1912, GA
                                                        143.
                                                        >
                                                        > http://www.uncletaz.com/lovemeaning.html
                                                        >
                                                        > Here again, it is crystal clear that spiritual wisdom and genuine
                                                        > Christianity are treasures embedded in a true understanding of love,
                                                        not in
                                                        > knowledge and exercises and having done "a shitload of work" and
                                                        "made a
                                                        > fucking effort".
                                                        >
                                                        > Of course we can all write whatever we please, but disrespect should
                                                        never
                                                        > take us by surprise if we also express ourselves disrespectfully.
                                                        >
                                                        > Cheers,
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Tarjei
                                                        > http://uncletaz.com/
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