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  • ivangottel
    Hi Everybody! I joined and read this message at the end of the home page: So what kind of future do we expect? What do we want? Is Anthroposophy indeed a
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 25, 2004
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      Hi Everybody!

      I joined and read this message at the end of the home page:
      "So what kind of future do we expect? What do we want? Is
      Anthroposophy indeed a cultural force about to manifest itself a
      century after Steiner uttered the words above, and may this be a
      reason why the Opposing Powers are renewing their efforts to erode
      the movement with external attacks, divisions in the Society, etc.?
      And what can we do in this situation? What can be done to establish
      a strong and healthy anthroposophical presence on the internet?"

      I would like to talk about this. I think this is the most relevant
      topic and the first to be discussed:
      "And what can we do in this situation?"

      What I would dare, go ahead, and suggest is, that each of us could
      take an individual part in establishing "a strong and healthy
      anthroposophical presence on the internet".

      Moreover "divisions in the society" seem to me more like problems of
      those that dare not go their own way through and to anthroposophy
      but try to stay in a kind of common consciousness e.g. institution
      that doesn't give a scope for real freedom of individual expression
      and action.
      An organization consists of individuals. If the individuals are
      taking the charge of being individuals, then there is no chance of
      being divided. Why would someone independent as an individual want
      to divide her/himself? Isn't an individual "crying out in
      loneliness"?
      Our fields of creativity are individual (should be). Don't we all
      need to become a source of anthroposophy, instead of being inside
      the walls of an institution?

      Why we couldn't initiate actions by ourselves, in our way - if we
      are honest, humble and genuine? Why wait for a huge organization to
      spread it's message when the opposition is confronting it - when we
      could each work independently, too?

      Cheers,
      Ivan
    • ivangottel
      Hi Steve! You are right, the cohorts of the evil are strangling our throats. (I do have a cough now ;) If it were for just those 3 guys you name! To Sorath I d
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 27, 2004
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        Hi Steve!

        You are right, the cohorts of the evil are strangling our throats.
        (I do have a cough now ;)
        If it were for just those 3 guys you name! To Sorath I'd like to add
        one more revelation. When Christ is the I am - then Sorath is the
        non-being, the negation of the Being or anti-being. This gives one
        more clue to the understanding of his being and work done upon us.
        Each of the "guys" does their job on a certain level. Sorath is
        primarily working on negating the spiritual self.
        But there are myriads of these "fellows" that can be nicely sorted,
        classified and defined.
        If we remember what der Doktor said about those that haven't
        developed their ego when the time had been due, in the time of
        Atlantis, then we might wonder what or who takes the place where the
        ego of those people should have been.
        In other words, the band of demons cast down by Michael is "easy
        going and having lot of fun in a friendly atmosphere" down here
        among us, within many people's mind and body.
        While Ahriman (not only him) is pushing the people out of their
        brains, there are new tenants applying for the newly acquired room
        waiting in queues.
        There is one question that comes to mind that the "opponents of
        reincarnation" usually ask: "with the multiplication of humans on
        earth is the number of souls rising?" The answer can only be - NO.
        The egos have come about on Atlantis. There is no more creation of
        ego, e.g. sensuous soul, thinking soul and consciousness soul - in
        one word those that are born over the number are retarded.
        They might be inhabited by celestial spirits, but more often than
        not it is ahrimanic, lusiferic, asuric etc. spirits that use them on
        long scale.
        And we think of equality of all the people...
        The sad question is: how many of us have evolved at this point of
        time up to the plan made by the Gods?
        It is silly to think there are 5 billion people or more on the
        planet; it is just physically the case.

        To my topic from the previous mail I would add the question, how
        creative you (all) think we can be in spontaneously spreading
        anthroposophy by sharing our thoughts and feelings - on the web or
        off line?
        I mean without using the identification with anthroposophy – without
        putting our self (always) into the existing preconceived context of
        spirituality.
        I feel there is no limit.
        If a dentist is an anthroposophist - s/he is going to further
        her/his inner attitude, vision, everything.
        If a soldier is an anthroposophist...
        If a businessman is an anthroposophist, or a lawyer, statesman, ...
        But there are even more thought-provoking professions, like
        sexologist, gyno or lap-dancer, photo-model or film-star...
        This is a question of compatibility.
        And we mustn't forget Saul was a "bad guy" before he became Paul.
        Magdalene had a non-reputable profession as she was a "nasty gal".
        This reasoning leads to the question: what topic can we utilize to
        convey the truth?
        The thing that bothers me is that anthroposophical as so many
        spiritual and less spiritual web sites are completely divided from
        people who live in common consciousness - by keywords, by content
        and attitude.
        Is that possible that it is still imposed upon spiritual seekers
        that they should renounce the "world of commerce and pleasure"?
        Then should we go to the forests to perform ascetic deeds as in the
        time of Prince Rama? Should we give up commerce, economy and
        material wellness to Ahriman?
        If we don't accept the world and work on it to permeate it with
        love - despite our hardships and statistics - then who would do the
        mission of mankind upon earth?

        These are my thoughts that bother me (oh, not that I cannot
        sleep...;) and I wouldn't like to make a final standpoint, my aim is
        not to convey my opinion, but to hear yours! (I'm crying out from my
        loneliness! ;)

        Cheers Steve and cheers all of you!
        Ivan

        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
        <sardisian01@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Ivan
        >
        > Well that is exactly what has to take place today. Individual
        > initiatives, expressing them, and seeking out encouragement and
        > support from other like minds. This is a great forum for that
        > because the people here feel the sting of Ahriman all around them;
        > as well, the illusions that Lucifer uses to comfort our
        > personalities. And, most importantly, this forum and its
        > participants has a pulse bead on that bastard, Soradt, who is the
        > prime mover on these two deceptions. All in the spirit of being
        > anti-man, anti-god, anti-christ, anti-logos, anti-michael, anti-
        > steiner. You get it.
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Steve
        >
        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ivangottel"
        > <ivangottel@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Everybody!
        > >
        > > I joined and read this message at the end of the home page:
        > > "So what kind of future do we expect? What do we want? Is
        > > Anthroposophy indeed a cultural force about to manifest itself a
        > > century after Steiner uttered the words above, and may this be a
        > > reason why the Opposing Powers are renewing their efforts to
        erode
        > > the movement with external attacks, divisions in the Society,
        > etc.?
        > > And what can we do in this situation? What can be done to
        > establish
        > > a strong and healthy anthroposophical presence on the internet?"
        > >
        > > I would like to talk about this. I think this is the most
        relevant
        > > topic and the first to be discussed:
        > > "And what can we do in this situation?"
        > >
        > > What I would dare, go ahead, and suggest is, that each of us
        could
        > > take an individual part in establishing "a strong and healthy
        > > anthroposophical presence on the internet".
        > >
        > > Moreover "divisions in the society" seem to me more like
        problems
        > of
        > > those that dare not go their own way through and to
        anthroposophy
        > > but try to stay in a kind of common consciousness e.g.
        institution
        > > that doesn't give a scope for real freedom of individual
        > expression
        > > and action.
        > > An organization consists of individuals. If the individuals are
        > > taking the charge of being individuals, then there is no chance
        of
        > > being divided. Why would someone independent as an individual
        want
        > > to divide her/himself? Isn't an individual "crying out in
        > > loneliness"?
        > > Our fields of creativity are individual (should be). Don't we
        all
        > > need to become a source of anthroposophy, instead of being
        inside
        > > the walls of an institution?
        > >
        > > Why we couldn't initiate actions by ourselves, in our way - if
        we
        > > are honest, humble and genuine? Why wait for a huge organization
        > to
        > > spread it's message when the opposition is confronting it - when
        > we
        > > could each work independently, too?
        > >
        > > Cheers,
        > > Ivan
      • wdenval@aol.com
        Dear Ivan, Welcome to this list. I haven t been here that long myself but I was on the Ark for a few years and on another anthroposophical list both of which
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 27, 2004
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          Dear Ivan,

          Welcome to this list. I haven't been here that long myself but I was on the Ark for a few years and on another anthroposophical list both of which sort of drifted away as I just stopped receiving posts so that's why I am here. If this happens a third time I will have to consider it part of the "California Conspiracy." Enough about me, what about you? I am having trouble reconciling your first two posts. In the first you say:

          What I would dare, go ahead, and suggest is, that each of us could
          take an individual part in establishing "a strong and healthy
          anthroposophical presence on the internet".

          Moreover "divisions in the society" seem to me more like problems of
          those that dare not go their own way through and to anthroposophy
          but try to stay in a kind of common consciousness e.g. institution
          that doesn't give a scope for real freedom of individual expression
          and action. Our fields of creativity are individual (should be).
          Don't we all need to become a source of anthroposophy, instead of
          being inside the seen and unseed walls of an institution?

          So it sounds to me like you are addressing the issue of developing internal authority versus relying on external authority but then I have this hang-up with Peter at the moment so I could just be projecting. Then you go on to say in your next post:

          There is no more creation of
          ego, e.g. sensuous soul, thinking soul and consciousness soul - in
          one word those that are born over the number are retarded.
          They might be inhabited by celestial spirits, but more often than
          not it is ahrimanic, lusiferic, asuric etc. spirits that use them on
          long scale.
          And we think of equality of all the people...
          The sad question is: how many of us have evolved at this point of
          time up to the plan made by the Gods?
          It is silly to think there are 5 billion people or more on the
          planet; it is just physically the case.

          I have lived my entire life, up until now, with the understanding that the difference between good and evil is not a question of mathmatics but it seems to me that you are saying that it is. So conceptually I'm having difficulty with this and am wondering if you could help me understand it better. As a practical matter, if I were, for instance one of the retarded beings, maybe one of the billions and billions as Carl Sagan would say, how could I "take an individual part in establishing a strong and healthy anthroposophical presence on the internet" as you suggest. If I were retarded wouldn't I be counterproductive to the list's health? Or would the list be stronger for the adversity of having me? Would I just be destined to wait until others figured out that I was totally devoid of individuality and otherwise possessed because if this were the case it seems to me that I'd be the last to know. Again, just wondering how it all works-Thanks, Val
        • Tarjei Straume
          Hi Ivan, ... This topic was discussed to some extent 11 months ago - at the end of November 2003. Check out this thread:
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 27, 2004
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            Hi Ivan,

            At 09:09 27.10.2004, you wrote:

            >There is one question that comes to mind that the "opponents of
            >reincarnation" usually ask: "with the multiplication of humans on earth is
            >the number of souls rising?" The answer can only be - NO.
            >The egos have come about on Atlantis. There is no more creation of ego,
            >e.g. sensuous soul, thinking soul and consciousness soul - in one word
            >those that are born over the number are retarded.
            >They might be inhabited by celestial spirits, but more often than not it
            >is ahrimanic, lusiferic, asuric etc. spirits that use them on long scale.
            >And we think of equality of all the people...
            >The sad question is: how many of us have evolved at this point of time up
            >to the plan made by the Gods?
            >It is silly to think there are 5 billion people or more on the planet; it
            >is just physically the case.

            This topic was discussed to some extent 11 months ago - at the end of
            November 2003. Check out this thread:

            http://www.uncletaz.com/at/novdec03/bodychr.html

            Tarjei
          • Ivan Gottel
            Dear Val, The expression take an individual part in establishing a strong and healthy anthroposophical presence on the internet is not mine, I have taken it
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 28, 2004
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              Dear Val,

               

              The expression "take an individual part in establishing a strong and healthy anthroposophical presence on the internet" is not mine, I have taken it from the home page of this group. Nevertheless, I agree with it and I am doing my best to do so. I think this group could give me more ideas of how I can do even more or I could find partners for that here.

               

              On the other hand I don’t think that we have so many Internet users who are able and willing to take our message. That is not a problem as we are not going in for numbers or mathematics as you say. But we seem not to need to carry the message out to 5 billions of people.

              What I can sense is that out of 100 or more, maybe even 1000 people there is only one that has a centre of personality. The most people mock up what they find around them or in the media to build up a fake image and pretend to be a person. I might be wrong in numbers, but there is truth in the fact. “Mathematics” is here just for the illustration.

              It seems to me, there are no 5+ billion human souls on earth and the number should be divided by 100 or even 1000 to get closer to truth. A human body doesn’t make one a human.

              It doesn’t mean those with no ego are to be less respected than any one else or looked down at.

               

              There are many benevolent spirits residing in people without ego and many are inspired to give a positive example to humanity. Some are really "good-girls-and-boys" who cannot be other than good.

              On the other side, I have recently spent a few years living in Australia and what I can state with full conviction and liability is that Australia is an ahrimanic fortress. You can compare the face of Prime Minister John Howard to the wooden carving of Ahriman’s head by Dr Steiner. You can analyze the aussie way of thinking or politics. But the most convincing is taking a walk in the streets.
              We are usually lulled by what we learned about people in school, by political pamphlets, like “all the *men* are born equal” (they meant – naked?), and our own good will to see others as good as we are. The truth is far from that.

              I wouldn’t go deeper into this unless there is some interest in the group for the question.

              Then what makes these people different? They are unable to think of themselves objectively. They lack self-criticism. The question, “am I perhaps lacking some merits” that you came up with, asking if you are not one of these egoless ones – this question would had never come to them.

              The trap of self-observing and self-criticism is reserved for high souls. (This is not meant, to flatter you, Val. ;)
              They are the popular “egoists”! What a misconception!

              Exactly those that have no ego do behave like egoists – selfishly and taking no others into account; not to mention any compassion that they would have.

              So there is no contradiction for me between the two posts. I think those people, those millions and not billions deserve to know about anthroposophy as soon as possible. They are in danger. They don’t know what kinds of beings are surrounding them. They don’t know how far their world-view is from truth. All the mass media and all the demons of the Universe try to influence them, take away their capacities from them and destroy their ego. They do need urgent help.

               

              Val, you say, “If I were retarded wouldn't I be counterproductive to the list's health? Or would the list be stronger for the adversity of having me? Would I just be destined to wait until others figured out that I was totally devoid of individuality”.
              I don’t mean to go for a witch-hunt. Those that have ego in Steiner’s sense (not in common language or professional sense) will pull the list forward. If a list survives it means there is a healthy core of people in it that give it a boost. But it’s not bad even for them to know what’s behind the human appearances.


              If any group of people consists of 40% good and 40% bad and the flip-flopping in between that decide the elections ;) – that is but “the way of the world” and we can accept it. The question is: why not be conscious of that?

              I also don’t mean to impose my “opinion” on any one even though it might have cost me some strenuous research and pains in my life.

              I would like that some of you check it as a working theory.

              Think of George W. and if he has an ego or just pretends to be someone. Who is completely unable to think as a human being but learns all citations and speeches by heart. Think of his voters that make for more than 40% of the citizens of USA. Where they belong?
              Think of all the anonymous numbers (of people) showing no emotions, having no trouble inside them or being content with the given situation in the world. Think of the rugby players; watch their face expression(s). Watch the TV program see its content, watch the ads.

              Do you think that we are the victims of bad luck so that there are so many wars and murder going on in the world? That all that people are good? That they can think or they are conscious?

               

              Then let me conclude with this, and you may despise me in the fullest after the last words (wouldn’t be the first time):

               

              You say you think the good and bad are not a question of mathematics. I can then suppose you think good and bad are inside everyone of us the same way. (That is again, inside-statistics?)

               

              Not as simple as that! Good and bad are inside every one of us HUMANS in the same way.

              The fact we don’t learn from our elders is, that physical humans are not all humans in soul.

               

              Exactly people like you, Val and many of you here in this group are exposed to danger because you presuppose that you are surrounded with intelligible, human-hearted and good williing people.

               

              You are in danger, because if you have developed to consciousness soul, an asura is there beside you inside a human body and she/he might be your next of kin.
              If you are working on your spiritual self, then the sixsixsix is close by. And he might be your next of kin, friend or someone “you can’t live without”.

              And usually, the good people like you are ready to swear about their fellows, loyal and trusting to the end. They feel it is embarrassing to think bad about others and they will rather not pay attention to what someone like me says – after all what I say is not a “positive message” while the good people don’t like negative input.

              But let me try. Once I’ll make it. Someone would step forward to me.

               

              Blessings to you all!

              Ivan



              wdenval@... wrote:
              Dear Ivan,

              Welcome to this list. I haven't been here that long myself but I was on the Ark for a few years and on another anthroposophical list both of which sort of drifted away as I just stopped receiving posts so that's why I am here. If this happens a third time I will have to consider it part of the "California Conspiracy." Enough about me, what about you? I am having trouble reconciling your first two posts. In the first you say:

              What I would dare, go ahead, and suggest is, that each of us could
              take an individual part in establishing "a strong and healthy
              anthroposophical presence on the internet".

              Moreover "divisions in the society" seem to me more like problems of
              those that dare not go their own way through and to anthroposophy
              but try to stay in a kind of common consciousness e.g. institution
              that doesn't give a scope for real freedom of individual expression
              and action. Our fields of creativity are individual (should be).
              Don't we all need to become a source of anthroposophy, instead of
              being inside the seen and unseed walls of an institution?

              So it sounds to me like you are addressing the issue of developing internal authority versus relying on external authority but then I have this hang-up with Peter at the moment so I could just be projecting. Then you go on to say in your next post:

              There is no more creation of
              ego, e.g. sensuous soul, thinking soul and consciousness soul - in
              one word those that are born over the number are retarded.
              They might be inhabited by celestial spirits, but more often than
              not it is ahrimanic, lusiferic, asuric etc. spirits that use them on
              long scale.
              And we think of equality of all the people...
              The sad question is: how many of us have evolved at this point of
              time up to the plan made by the Gods?
              It is silly to think there are 5 billion people or more on the
              planet; it is just physically the case.

              I have lived my entire life, up until now, with the understanding that the difference between good and evil is not a question of mathmatics but it seems to me that you are saying that it is. So conceptually I'm having difficulty with this and am wondering if you could help me understand it better. As a practical matter, if I were, for instance one of the retarded beings, maybe one of the billions and billions as Carl Sagan would say, how could I "take an individual part in establishing a strong and healthy anthroposophical presence on the internet" as you suggest. If I were retarded wouldn't I be counterproductive to the list's health? Or would the list be stronger for the adversity of having me? Would I just be destined to wait until others figured out that I was totally devoid of individuality and otherwise possessed because if this were the case it seems to me that I'd be the last to know. Again, just wondering how it all works-Thanks, Val


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            • Ivan Gottel
              Yes. I am aware that I haven t found out a new thing. The whole was there as indication, in between lines or more explicitly in RS works. These things are
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 28, 2004
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                Yes. I am aware that I haven't found out a new thing. The whole was there as indication, in between lines or more explicitly in RS works. These things are still not meant for public ;)

                I have had compared RS indications to what I found in the large resource of half truths by the title scientology.

                They are working on “suppressive person” base ;) They define what characteristics a suppressive person has etc. That is another subject that they use the same methodology themselves.

                 

                Those that have no ego do not really have re-incarnation in the fullest sense, they don’t have self-identity even now – so how can they have it in regard to their past existence? Who had that been who existed when there is no ego?

                So they are convinced with full right that there is no such thing as reincarnation.

                On the other hand, a normal human can’t ever accept she/he would ever cease to be!

                 

                In the text you sent me the link to, there is also mention of the shortened time spent in spiritual world in between lives. Now, I believe it shouldn’t make much fuss in this circle of friends if I told you that I know (personally) of many people who spent only a few decades up there before coming back to earth in the sixties and seventies. Most of us have died in the WW2. The unnatural death is one more cause for a shortened time in the spiritual world.

                It is simply a huge urge to finish what you have planned for in your vision after death and before birth that makes you come back early. So many unfinished works! So many aspirations!

                 

                There is mention of Jesus and Magdalene in the same thread. They are also on earth now.

                But I don’t want to play a new age hear-say self-attention getter. I won’t say more about this. I just put this because there is so much talk about those people from 2000 years in the past in the group.

                It seems to interest many of you. Then let me just tell you this: There are also many miraculous, blissful, and great souls among us. The spiritual leadership has never left us alone. They are here, disguised as the evil are here, disguised. A nice little party, huh?

                 

                Do you perhaps know of this. RS states that if humanity sleeps over his time, they will have to start with anthroposophy 100 years later. I feel our generation is also of importance, that we had played in great dramas of humanity before. This is just a feeling I have. but my generation means anything from the beginning of my shortened life 1910-1945 and from 1962 onwards. Does anyone of you know something about our generation?

                 

                cheers,Ivan 


                Tarjei Straume <cyberuncle@...> wrote:
                Hi Ivan,

                At 09:09 27.10.2004, you wrote:

                >There is one question that comes to mind that the "opponents of
                >reincarnation" usually ask: "with the multiplication of humans on earth is
                >the number of souls rising?" The answer can only be - NO.
                >The egos have come about on Atlantis. There is no more creation of ego,
                >e.g. sensuous soul, thinking soul and consciousness soul - in one word
                >those that are born over the number are retarded.
                >They might be inhabited by celestial spirits, but more often than not it
                >is ahrimanic, lusiferic, asuric etc. spirits that use them on long scale.
                >And we think of equality of all the people...
                >The sad question is: how many of us have evolved at this point of time up
                >to the plan made by the Gods?
                >It is silly to think there are 5 billion people or more on the planet; it
                >is just physically the case.

                This topic was discussed to some extent 11 months ago - at the end of
                November 2003. Check out this thread:

                http://www.uncletaz.com/at/novdec03/bodychr.html

                Tarjei



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              • Tarjei Straume
                ... Hold it. Anthroposophically oriented spiritual science is based upon inner individual freedom. I remain convinced, therefore, that that its wisdom and body
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 28, 2004
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                  At 09:47 28.10.2004, Ivan wrote:

                  >On the other hand I don't think that we have so many Internet users who
                  >are able and willing to take our message. That is not a problem as we are
                  >not going in for numbers or mathematics as you say. But we seem not to
                  >need to carry the message out to 5 billions of people.

                  Hold it. Anthroposophically oriented spiritual science is based upon inner
                  individual freedom. I remain convinced, therefore, that that its wisdom and
                  body if esoteric knowledge needs to be sought out by the individual and
                  discovered, not shoved down anyone's throat. An evangelistic, missionary
                  outreach approach to Anthroposophy would make it into something totally
                  different from what it is, in my humble opinion.

                  >What I can sense is that out of 100 or more, maybe even 1000 people there
                  >is only one that has a centre of personality. The most people mock up what
                  >they find around them or in the media to build up a fake image and pretend
                  >to be a person. I might be wrong in numbers, but there is truth in the
                  >fact. "Mathematics" is here just for the illustration.

                  "Mock up" - that's an expression borrowed from Scientology, isn't it? And
                  Scientology was heavily influenced by Jesuitism and by Beria, chief of
                  Stalin's secret police. Ron Hubbard aspired to be the Antichrist. For these
                  reasons and more, I think concepts, expressions, thought forms etc.
                  borrowed from Scientology, which is as antithetical to Spiritual Science as
                  Nazism, is poison to the movement.

                  >It seems to me, there are no 5+ billion human souls on earth and the
                  >number should be divided by 100 or even 1000 to get closer to truth. A
                  >human body doesn't make one a human.
                  >
                  >It doesn't mean those with no ego are to be less respected than any one
                  >else or looked down at.

                  Wow.

                  >There are many benevolent spirits residing in people without ego and many
                  >are inspired to give a positive example to humanity. Some are really
                  >"good-girls-and-boys" who cannot be other than good.

                  To the best of my recollection, the human organism consists of twelve
                  parts. The physical, etheric, and astral bodies are the three lower parts.
                  The physical body is the part most highly developed, because it's been
                  evolving since Saturn. Next, the Etheric body has evolved since the Sun and
                  is therefore less evolved. Even more imperfect is the astral body with its
                  genesis on the Moon. The ego is the least developed of these foru parts,
                  having its origin in the Earth period in which we're living.

                  This new-borne 'I' has nine stages to go. Please correct me on this,
                  because it's been a while since I read up on it. The point is that it's
                  very difficult for us to conclude that people "out there" are walking
                  around with absolutely no 'I' at all, with no spark of divinity! Who? Bush?
                  Bin Laden? Ashcroft? Who? People may be terribly misguided for sure, but to
                  say they have no 'I' is a judgement that only the highest evolved initiates
                  would be able to make.

                  >I think those people, those millions and not billions deserve to know
                  >about anthroposophy as soon as possible. They are in danger. They don't
                  >know what kinds of beings are surrounding them. They don't know how far
                  >their world-view is from truth. All the mass media and all the demons of
                  >the Universe try to influence them, take away their capacities from them
                  >and destroy their ego. They do need urgent help.

                  Earlier this year, we were talking about the Asuric beings and their
                  ability to take a chunk out of people's 'I' that they never get back. One
                  of our listmates got so freaked out by this that he jumped all over me and
                  said I had no "authority" to write about such things!

                  >Think of George W. and if he has an ego or just pretends to be someone.
                  >Who is completely unable to think as a human being but learns all
                  >citations and speeches by heart. Think of his voters that make for more
                  >than 40% of the citizens of USA. Where they belong?

                  Careful, careful. Some of our most wise and beloved anthroposophists, also
                  on this list, are Bush-supporters. That does not deprive them of having an 'I'.

                  >Think of all the anonymous numbers (of people) showing no emotions, having
                  >no trouble inside them or being content with the given situation in the
                  >world. Think of the rugby players; watch their face expression(s). Watch
                  >the TV program see its content, watch the ads.
                  >
                  >Do you think that we are the victims of bad luck so that there are so many
                  >wars and murder going on in the world? That all that people are good? That
                  >they can think or they are conscious?

                  Allow me to use myself as a point of departure here: I do experience myself
                  as half awake in the spiritual sense because of anthroposophical inflence
                  spanning three and a half decades. But I can never bring myself to think
                  I'm a hundred percent awake, looking at people I would consider a hundred
                  per cent asleep! On the contrary, I have discovered that a most homely,
                  uneducated, and even materialistic individual may be more awake and alert
                  than myself when it comes to certain things. That's a humbling experience.
                  It kills every temptation for elitism and arrogance.

                  The distinction also needs to be made between the collective karma of a
                  nation and the individual karma of each person. Rudolf Steiner stressed
                  this very strongly. To a certain extent, generalizations and stereotyping
                  of national groups may serve the purpose of clarity and overview, but if we
                  forget that such generalizations and stereotypes are one-sided and
                  therefore partially illusory, we can easily fall into some very powerful
                  luciferic traps that characterize cults and sects.

                  >The fact we don't learn from our elders is, that physical humans are not
                  >all humans in soul.

                  Who are these elders?

                  Cheers,


                  Tarjei
                  http://uncletaz.com/
                • Ivan Gottel
                  Let s hold both sides. I don t disagree with you, except in the bush. By the way I don t think he s a bad guy; he s been chosen exactly because no one can say
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 28, 2004
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                    Let's hold both sides. I don't disagree with you, except in the bush. By the way I don't think he's a bad guy; he's been chosen exactly because no one can say he's bad; but who'd chosen him?

                     

                    Of course, humans are to be free to chose if they want the divine world or the other ones. But it just seems to me that, wait a minute - look at how much propaganda they have from the worldly part, 70+% of the Internet being pornography, not to mention dirty politics real estate and the rest. And how much are people exposed to the truths?

                    Do people really have a chance to hear there is another way?

                    And exactly because those that are among the humans who are not really their friends, and from the other side because they need to develop individuality independent from Gods – I don’t think of an “evangelization”.

                     

                    “Mock up” is an expression from the Dictionary of English Language; it means imitation with the use of the Latin word; Building up something by copying the existing examples. But if there is a need to free anthroposophy of all suspicious elements than I understand why I haven’t ever been a part of a group. I never liked to be scanned and profiled; these politics resemble the post Fahrenheit 9/11 Bush-like politics.

                     

                    What I can say about people going around with no “I” is what I see as a anthroposophically, vedantically, etc. oriented analytical psychologist. But what RS said is that the whole culture of for example ancient China couldn’t get further from a certain point of cultural development because that (ancient group of) people have not imbibed the ego-principle in the middle of Atlantis time and the times are long ago finished when it was possible.

                     

                    You say, “it's very difficult for us to conclude that people "out there" are walking around with absolutely no 'I' at all, with no spark of divinity! Who? Bush? Bin Laden? Ashcroft? Who? People may be terribly misguided for sure, but to say they have no 'I' is a judgement that only the highest evolved initiates would be able to make.

                     

                    “You said yourself”. “You’ll recognize them from their deeds.”

                    I agree it is very difficult to conclude about someone’s inner world. But I don’t think it is hard to feel, intuit (in usual sense of the word) to see one’s motivation and if it is anything personal or there is sheer emptiness inside her/him.

                    Let me ask you back, do you think Bin Laden is a normal guy? Do you think Hitler had an ego? Stalin? Dr Joseph Mengele?

                     

                    Or what you call spark of divinity? Their physical body surely is a spark of divine wisdom etc. There is something good in everyone. That doesn’t mean they need to have ego or that it is a sin by itself not to have one.

                    They are (the egoless) not always bad. Many want to do good and try their best. Many or them are simply good, naïve children from within. Many egoless are harboring divine beings in themselves.

                     

                    From what you say as, “Earlier this year, we were talking about the Asuric beings and their ability to take a chunk out of people's 'I' that they never get back. One of our listmates got so freaked out by this that he jumped all over me and said I had no "authority" to write about such things!” - I get a faint notion that you had a bad experience with this guy. You don’t need to protect me from asuric apologetics and guys who *protect the evil on the basis of Human Rights* ;) I know them well.

                    I don’t even think anyone needs any authority to write or speak about things that comprise their life-experience.

                     

                    Now, you think I also have no authority?

                    But that “authority criteria” might be another way how to suppress free expression of others.

                    “Only those with authority may speak out”.

                    And who they are, then? - The attorney general, the president and the minister for foreign affairs.

                     

                    Back to humane freedom and the need for it – may I then turn it around and say: Do I not have my own freedom to tell the good willing people with loving heart that evil beings are around them misguiding them and telling them lies about us all being equal?

                     

                    Freedom has to sides. This is a “controversy”!

                    I don’t mean to convert them by force which is a non-sense, but I mean that we could for a funny example, give out artistically designed flyers ;) Xmas-cards. Plastic dolls.

                     

                    It might be the law that forbids the Celestials go and evangelize people.

                    On the other hand if we remember Ramayana (if that is not a poison or taboo literature?) – Rama was used by the Divine to extinguish the Demon whom they couldn’t do anything against – because of similar laws that limited their power.

                     

                    A human is eligible to use her/his guaranteed freedom and she/he can use it for evangelization then, with the same right to freedom that humans want to observe.

                    But I don’t wish to evangelize, that is not my choice. I wish to find my folks only, my sisters and brothers in spirit and soul. Too long have they been tormented by misunderstood equality and other “humane” values.

                     

                    Back to the Bush, I admit I would also support him in some issues and that I don’t see Kerry much better than him; the best candidates have fallen out long ago from the election run.

                    Of course, there are humans who are misguided. I am not one without mistakes, failures and the like, too, on the contrary.

                    My opinion is that Bush is a egoless big daddy’s big boy who has been chosen by the evil to confuse people’s mind with his naive and innocent unknowingness. That is my opinion.

                    It doesn’t mean that others cannot think differently.

                    If I don’t express my opinion and this way confront certain issues, then one day I might find out that I shake hands with the supporters of the Bush.

                    I give my respect to them, but I do not wish to mix with them. Moreover, the 47 or so voters of Bush are not all egoless, I didn’t say so.

                    But a great deal among them are for sure egoless.

                    If I offended anyone, I accept responsibility before my Father; I did it with a purpose.

                    I did it out of love and love for truth. You share your opinion out of love and you develop one searching for truth. The bad guys don’t give their opinion out openly, if you might think so.

                    Nevertheless, the Bush-lover thing made me “shake” with surprise… If we don’t agree on such a low level, how can we then agree on other issues?

                     

                    I believe you use different criteria when you are critical to your self, when you speak of wakefulness – then the criteria you use for others.

                    Of course, people who never attended school can be more awake than the “mother’s little helpers”.

                     

                    I didn’t mean to generalize, that is why I used some funny statistical language. There are at least 1 among 1000 Australians who are very good people with warm heart and soul. I met one of them in 3 years - one real Aussie, white and Anglo-Saxon and with an ego and loving heart.

                     

                    Regarding their folk-spirit we can think about it. Which is the Aussie common soul? The Aboriginal?

                    Or the common spirit of Oliver Twist, gold-rush victims and other dissidents?

                    I think some newly created “nations” should think twice about their folk-spirit. A mixture of foreign intruders, conquistadors or bandits melted into an interest-group guided only by self-interest, greed etc. who committed open genocide upon the natives – were they at all guided by their folk spirit? By an archangel?

                     

                    And before anyone misunderstands me, I think there are a lot of good people, good souls in USA, maybe the most in the world, statistically seen. Many of them were protesting against the Iraq war risking their own life and social reputation, many are spiritual and creative. Or just remember the sixties.

                    Exactly USA is where the battle for earth (to use Hubbard’s poisonous language) is being fight. Because who “reigns in the most powerful nation” will set the rules to the whole world. At least Ahriman thinks this way.

                     

                    Who are the elders? -Mom and Dad, Granny and Grand-daddy, teachers, political leaders. The exoteric culture as such teaches us we are all so-so and the bad are in the prisons or somewhere out there far away.

                     

                    Cheers,

                    Ivan



                    Tarjei Straume <cyberuncle@...> wrote:
                    Hold it. Anthroposophically oriented spiritual science is based upon inner
                    individual freedom. I remain convinced, therefore, that that its wisdom and
                    body if esoteric knowledge needs to be sought out by the individual and
                    discovered, not shoved down anyone's throat. An evangelistic, missionary
                    outreach approach to Anthroposophy would make it into something totally
                    different from what it is, in my humble opinion.


                    "Mock up" - that's an expression borrowed from Scientology, isn't it? And
                    Scientology was heavily influenced by Jesuitism and by Beria, chief of
                    Stalin's secret police. Ron Hubbard aspired to be the Antichrist. For these
                    reasons and more, I think concepts, expressions, thought forms etc.
                    borrowed from Scientology, which is as antithetical to Spiritual Science as
                    Nazism, is poison to the movement.

                    >human body doesn't make one a human.
                    >
                    >It doesn't mean those with no ego are to be less respected than any one
                    >else or looked down at.

                    Wow.



                    To the best of my recollection, the human organism consists of twelve
                    parts. The physical, etheric, and astral bodies are the three lower parts.
                    The physical body is the part most highly developed, because it's been
                    evolving since Saturn. Next, the Etheric body has evolved since the Sun and
                    is therefore less evolved. Even more imperfect is the astral body with its
                    genesis on the Moon. The ego is the least developed of these foru parts,
                    having its origin in the Earth period in which we're living.

                    This new-borne 'I' has nine stages to go. Please correct me on this,
                    because it's been a while since I read up on it. The point is that it's
                    very difficult for us to conclude that people "out there" are walking
                    around with absolutely no 'I' at all, with no spark of divinity! Who? Bush?
                    Bin Laden? Ashcroft? Who? People may be terribly misguided for sure, but to
                    say they have no 'I' is a judgement that only the highest evolved initiates
                    would be able to make.


                    Earlier this year, we were talking about the Asuric beings and their
                    ability to take a chunk out of people's 'I' that they never get back. One
                    of our listmates got so freaked out by this that he jumped all over me and
                    said I had no "authority" to write about such things!

                    Careful, careful. Some of our most wise and beloved anthroposophists, also
                    on this list, are Bush-supporters. That does not deprive them of having an 'I'.


                    Allow me to use myself as a point of departure here: I do experience myself
                    as half awake in the spiritual sense because of anthroposophical inflence
                    spanning three and a half decades. But I can never bring myself to think
                    I'm a hundred percent awake, looking at people I would consider a hundred
                    per cent asleep! On the contrary, I have discovered that a most homely,
                    uneducated, and even materialistic individual may be more awake and alert
                    than myself when it comes to certain things. That's a humbling experience.
                    It kills every temptation for elitism and arrogance.

                    The distinction also needs to be made between the collective karma of a
                    nation and the individual karma of each person. Rudolf Steiner stressed
                    this very strongly. To a certain extent, generalizations and stereotyping
                    of national groups may serve the purpose of clarity and overview, but if we
                    forget that such generalizations and stereotypes are one-sided and
                    therefore partially illusory, we can easily fall into some very powerful
                    luciferic traps that characterize cults and sects.

                    Who are these elders?

                    Cheers,


                    Tarjei
                    http://uncletaz.com/



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                  • wdenval@aol.com
                    Dear Ivan. Thank you for your response to my questions. I agree with much of what you are saying but am still having difficulty with some points. It seems to
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 28, 2004
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                      Dear Ivan.

                      Thank you for your response to my questions. I agree with much of what you are saying but am still having difficulty with some points. It seems to me that your world concept and mine are but one degree off and as you say about the upcoming election-it's the gap we should be concerned with.


                      The expression "take an individual part in establishing a strong and healthy anthroposophical presence on the Internet" is not mine, I have taken it from the home page of this group. Nevertheless, I agree with it and I am doing my best to do so. I think this group could give me more ideas of how I can do even more or I could find partners for that here.

                      I agree with this statement as well and I think your particular posts and views are of the most instructive to come along regarding this goal.


                      On the other hand I don’t think that we have so many Internet users who are able and willing to take our message. That is not a problem as we are not going in for numbers or mathematics as you say. But we seem not to need to carry the message out to 5 billions of people.

                      But, as you say there are 5 billion plus physical beings on the planet. If there are only a few million Human beings isn't the deck stacked against the humans? What do you see as the nature of the conflict and that conflict's resolution?


                      What I can sense is that out of 100 or more, maybe even 1000 people there is only one that has a centre of personality. The most people mock up what they find around them or in the media to build up a fake image and pretend to be a person. I might be wrong in numbers, but there is truth in the fact. “Mathematics” is here just for the illustration.

                      Now for me, Ivan, I've never met anyone in whom I didn't sense a "centre of personality" though, I have to admit there are a certain few individuals who really gave me a run for my money in this regard.


                      I agree with you on all your examples of smoke and mirrors. I think my point of departure is the causal nature of them. It seems to me that you are saying the fake image, etc. are the manifestation/reflection/presentation of an egoless human being. Why egoless? Why not asleep, anesthetized, drugged, suppressed, depressed, oppressed, compressed, hypnotized, poisoned, MIS-educated, misdirected, lost?

                        

                      On the other side, I have recently spent a few years living in Australia and what I can state with full conviction and liability is that Australia is an ahrimanic fortress. You can compare the face of Prime Minister John Howard to the wooden carving of Ahriman’s head by Dr Steiner.


                      He's coming up as an image more and more, Ivan. Are you familiar with the children's books, A Series of Misfortunate Events. The illustrations of Count Olaf with, and this was the dead give away for me, Ivan, the tattooed eye on his ankle, is an absolute ringer for Ahriman.


                      We are usually lulled by what we learned about people in school, by political pamphlets, like “all the *men* are born equal” (they meant – naked?), and our own good will to see others as good as we are. The truth is far from that.


                      We ARE lulled. I assume here you are referring to the humans falling asleep to the situation. Again, I can't understand why or how this doesn't apply to everyone. Why can't some just be more asleep than others, maybe some knocked out cold?

                      We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal... Well, exoterically I always thought this meant that we hold all men to be equal under the law. Esoterically, I thought it was exactly as you say-naked. In that we all come into the world and go out of the world in the same manner. Again what you are bringing is fundamentally a different picture and yes, I thought this is what these words meant. I thought this was a principle this country was built on, that at our heart or core-we are all in essence common or the same. This is exactly what, for me makes the recent actions of this nation, so tragic. So painfully tragic.

                      Then what makes these people different? They are unable to think of themselves objectively. They lack self-criticisism. The question, “am I perhaps lacking some merits” that you came up with, asking if you are not one of these egoless ones – this question would had never come to them.

                      Again, Ivan they could just be snoozin' could be the annoying snoring noise that you're hearing. It's been my experience that it can be really annoying to the point of just wanting to reach for the ear muffs, Ivan-I know it bothers the hell out of Bradford. Now this sentence describing the difference between those with ego and those without is very interesting to me. You say "they are unable to think of themselves objectively."

                      I don't actually think I can think of myself objectively. I think my thinking is subjective in the regard of viewing myself. I think I would have to rely on the views of others or a mirror image seen outside myself to view myself as an object. So there is the question of the viewer that has occupied much better minds than mine. Emerson comes to mind here and when he dealt with this question, as I recall he just came to the fact that he was either good essentially or not.


                      The trap of self-observing and self-criticism is reserved for high souls. (This is not meant, to flatter you, Val. ;)

                      Too bad because, as they say flattery, Ivan will get you everywhere. : ) Now, I came to this question and I said well, I think I'm one of the good guys which is the optimistic view. But in doing so, in constructing my self-concept based on an assumption, a presumption, a hypothesis, a guess I HAVE TO extend the benefit of doubt to everyone else. I can't have it both ways and I'm not really understanding how you can either.

                      Exactly those that have no ego do behave like egoists – selfishly and taking no others into account; not to mention any compassion that they would have.

                      Snuffle, snuffle, snore, snore more snore... sleeping right on through these critical and pivotal times. What about having compassion for them? What if it's like they are all trapped in a high-rise apartment building asleep with a raging fire developing on a lower floor. Well, you know smoke kills most fire victims. The smoke gets you long before the fire ever does. So let's say you're the only one awake that you're aware of. What do you do? It sounds to me like you are running through the building in search of others who are awake as well. Okay, to what end? What's the goal-if it's to save yourself why not just head for the nearest exit? So you are trying to aid the ones like me who might be deluded in the smoke into thinking they should help the sleeping? I get that but how is it that you, yourself, are immune to the effects of the air?


                      Val, you say, “If I were retarded wouldn't I be counterproductive to the list's health? Or would the list be stronger for the adversity of having me? Would I just be destined to wait until others figured out that I was totally devoid of individuality”.
                      I don’t mean to go for a witch-hunt. Those that have ego in Steiner’s sense (not in common language or professional sense) will pull the list forward. If a list survives it means there is a healthy core of people in it that give it a boost. But it’s not bad even for them to know what’s behind the human appearances.

                      If any group of people consists of 40% good and 40% bad and the flip-flopping in between that decide the elections ;) – that is but “the way of the world” and we can accept it. The question is: why not be conscious of that?

                      Sorry to be so hung up on the math but I don't get it in either of these examples. I don't get it with a 10-1, 100-1, 1000-1 ratio how any "good" impulse would survive. This list would be overrun, the election would not be 40/40, it would not be a race at all.

                      Think of George W. and if he has an ego or just pretends to be someone. Who is completely unable to think as a human being but learns all citations and speeches by heart. Think of his voters that make for more than 40% of the citizens of USA. Where they belong?
                      Think of all the anonymous numbers (of people) showing no emotions, having no trouble inside them or being content with the given situation in the world. Think of the rugby players; watch their face expression(s). Watch the TV program see its content, watch the ads.


                      What if old George has an Ego AND he is pretending to be someone else-like the POTUS for instance? You have no doubt heard of "The Peter Principle"-the concept that people rise to exceed their competency? So what happens then? When they are no longer competent in their positions/stations in life? What could arise? What does this provide an opportunity for ideally? What does arise? What do we see happening as a practical matter?

                      Do you think that we are the victims of bad luck so that there are so many wars and murder going on in the world? That all that people are good? That they can think or they are conscious?


                      I think all people are essentially good, I do believe in the divine spark residing in all humanity. As I have explained I have to or I could not believe that it resides in me. I believe all people can think, I do not have much indication that people are conscious. I think we are victims of our unconsciousness, our lack of will and resolve, and our undeveloped heart forces. I think when we don't take up our space, Ivan, when we don't develop the individuality that we leave ourselves open for other beings to preside, reside, inhabit, otherwise occupy the space. So I agree with you on your perception that there are all these Arhimanic entities surrounding you-I see them too-billions and billions-a regular swarm.  This is a hard thing and a painful reality that you speak of. The even harder thing, in my experience, has been to see through them to glimpse the human being.

                      Then let me conclude with this, and you may despise me in the fullest after the last words (wouldn’t be the first time):


                      I do not despise you nor do I find anything you have brought to be despicable. I have heard the same things before and, from some fairly prominent anthroposophists. I am actually very interested in understanding what the underlying premise for this worldview is.

                      You say you think the good and bad are not a question of mathematics. I can then suppose you think good and bad are inside every one of us the same way. (That is again, inside-statistics?)

                      Yeah that's what I thought-I thought this was the battle. The internal struggle for good. Some are more successful than others.


                      Not as simple as that! Good and bad are inside every one of us HUMANS in the same way.

                      Now you say "not as simple as that"-but I don't see this inner struggle as simple at all. It's quite complex, and painful, and hard-it's a regular wrestling match. But again, Ivan, I can agree with you that good and evil don't exist in the same way in all human beings I just don't understand the need to throw out the ego
                      .

                      Exactly people like you, Val and many of you here in this group are exposed to danger because you presuppose that you are surrounded with intelligible, human-hearted and good willing people.


                      I presuppose no such thing yet I have sometimes been able to perceive something else.


                      You are in danger, because if you have developed to consciousness soul, an assura is there beside you inside a human body and she/he might be your next of kin.
                      If you are working on your spiritual self, then the sixsixsix is close by. And he might be your next of kin, friend or someone “you can’t live without”.

                      And usually, the good people like you are ready to swear about their fellows, loyal and trusting to the end. They feel it is embarrassing to think bad about others and they will rather not pay attention to what someone like me says – after all what I say is not a “positive message” while the good people don’t like negative input.

                      Now this is news to me as I have a somewhat different concept of the Asuras. To see them solidified and embodied in one close individual or even a form like a doppleganger is not a thought I have considered before. They seem much more diffuse to me-much more legion. Where are you getting this from? I don't believe that I am embarrassed to think ill of others nor am I embarrassed to say that I think ill of others all the time-it actually occupies me at times and then we've got a wrestling match on our hands. But I don't block those thoughts, or suppress those thoughts, or repress those thoughts, or stick them in the closet. I think them, and sometimes I think them hard-with feeling. I think that this is part of the process of thinking and that our society and our understanding of spirituality precludes us from taking this important (for me often reflex) step. Thinking our thoughts and feeling our feelings and owning them as part of us rather than alienating them and that part of us at the same time if that makes any sense at all. -Va
                      l


                    • Ivan Gottel
                      Dear Val, I, honestly speaking, didn’t think we could solve this issue by arguments. The best I could hope for is, that someone or more of us would research
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 28, 2004
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                        Dear Val,

                         

                        I, honestly speaking, didn’t think we could solve this issue by arguments. The best I could hope for is, that someone or more of us would research my hypothesis as a possibility, and then judge by her/himself.

                        Nevertheless, there are “Babylonian” misunderstandings between us that are removed through our communication now.
                        You say,
                         I agree with this statement as well and I think your particular posts and views are of the most instructive to come along regarding this goal

                        .

                        -          This is by itself enough to me. If I only give some food for thought and some one seriously enough goes through it, I’d be happy. What I came to see I would rather not believe – my standpoints. I am not happy with what I found out. I am not attached to my world view of the kind.

                        But, as you say there are 5 billion plus physical beings on the planet. If there are only a few million Human beings isn't the deck stacked against the humans? What do you see as the nature of the conflict and that conflict's resolution?

                         

                        -          This thing bothers me a lot. I didn’t want to believe it myself, I was depressed, upset and helpless. The whole atmosphere around us is full of demons. This looks like a horror movie. I have no choice then to pretend I’m Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense ;) One should not lose humor.

                         

                        -          I hated evangelism all my life and all the conversions and competition between the clans. Not to mention what they did besides to the “third world”. But we need to “advertise”, to do a lot of “marketing” if you forgive me the concept – it might be ahrimanic strategy against – Ahriman. But did not the Apostles do the thing and were they not advised by Our Lord, “be cunning like snakes and mild as pigeons” (just a paraphrases, I don’t exactly remember the wording). (This concept reminds us of Quetzalcoatlo, the feathered snake from the South American mythology, by the way.)
                        It looks like while we were asleep, the enemy has killed our troops. I don’t know if there is a minimum of us needed for the Great Plan to come truth, but not many people have come to the stage according to the Plan – you have to admit.
                        I think… I would love to do a lot. If there is anyone to join me – and sorry for this emotional speech. But I can’t follow Ahriman’s ways… of rationalization, withholding feelings and playing good manners. I can’t keep distance and I cannot escape offending people. But I cannot also escape appreciating them – all! And I mean all. There is a lot to be respected in Sorath, too, not these little toys of his.
                        On a higher level, all creatures have their roles in the Divine Comedy. The problem is, our suffering is so real while it lasts.




                        You say,
                        Now for me, Ivan, I've never met anyone in whom I didn't sense a "centre of personality" though, I have to admit there are a certain few individuals who really gave me a run for my money in this regard.

                        And I say,

                        Never mind if you think you didn’t met them. But if you take more care about those that you mention, then I have done a good job (it has been done through me).

                         

                        You say,
                        I agree with you on all your examples of smoke and mirrors. I think my point of departure is the causal nature of them. It seems to me that you are saying the fake image, etc. are the manifestation/reflection/presentation of an egoless human being. Why egoless? Why not asleep, anesthetized, drugged, suppressed, depressed, oppressed, compressed, hypnotized, poisoned, MIS-educated, misdirected, lost?

                         I say, please, check and recheck. I’d be happy if I’m wrong.

                        Use your empathic capacity to enter their center of motivation, of identity.

                         

                        But what about those that der Doktor names as belonging to the great ancient Chinese civilization that couldn’t develop further because they hadn’t had the seed of the ego implanted in time of Atlantis? And there were other civilizations, too… That means quite a few fellows… are running around without egos.

                         

                        I said.

                        You can compare the face of Prime Minister John Howard to the wooden carving of Ahriman’s head by Dr Steiner.

                        You said,
                        He's coming up as an image more and more, Ivan. Are you familiar with the children's books, A Series of Misfortunate Events. The illustrations of Count Olaf with, and this was the dead give away for me, Ivan, the tattooed eye on his ankle, is an absolute ringer for Ahriman.

                        - No I’m not. But I believe you a lot. I really do not wish to see what I see and do not want to see it all. I’d like to see beautiful loving people creating art…

                         

                        You say,
                        We ARE lulled. I assume here you are referring to the humans falling asleep to the situation. Again, I can't understand why or how this doesn't apply to everyone. Why can't some just be more asleep than others, maybe some knocked out cold?

                        I say,

                        Okay, you can call it sleep. Some sleep so intensely that the demons overtake their physical body, their etheric body, and astral body. Don’t we come to the same result?


                        You say,
                        We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal... Well, exoterically I always thought this meant that we hold all men to be equal under the law.

                        I say, I didn’t. I heard it only from Dr Steiner. I was foolish enough to think we are equal as humans

                         

                        You say,

                        Esoterically, I thought it was exactly as you say-naked. In that we all come into the world and go out of the world in the same manner.

                        I say,

                        I never like to think that way. I was a shy boy ;) Later on I’ve seen the intellectual, moral, emotional, financial and other differences. I came to know about Karma. We had been created equal in the Beginning of Time, that’s truth, I think. But that was also the last time we were equal. When we are born, some of us are born in the jungle, some in a thatched hut, some in luxurious hospitals… some with one some with other type of sexual organs, some without one leg…some dumb or deaf, some quite intelligent…

                         

                        You say,

                        Again what you are bringing is fundamentally a different picture and yes, I thought this is what these words meant. I thought this was a principle this country was built on, that at our heart or core-we are all in essence common or the same. This is exactly what, for me makes the recent actions of this nation, so tragic. So painfully tragic.
                        I say,

                        If I were to vote for one nation, that would have been USA. I have loved so many things (cultural in the first place) coming from there. I still see it’s being a nation problematic. I rather see it as a country without a particular archangel above, exposed only to the Great Archei Michael and… the many demons below – in the sense of nationality. I have been loving USA for its Michaelic nature.


                        You say,
                        Again, Ivan they could just be snoozin' could be the annoying snoring noise that you're hearing. It's been my experience that it can be really annoying to the point of just wanting to reach for the ear muffs, Ivan-I know it bothers the hell out of
                        Bradford.

                         

                        I say compare people to one another.

                        There are a few celebrities that I can swear are human in the highest sense.

                        Now don’t laugh ;)

                        Roger Moor, Harrison Ford (and the girl from 7 days, six nights), Uma Thurman, John Travolta and Tom Cruise (though poisoned with scientology), Kate Moss

                        No other come to my mind now (!)

                        Now,

                        Look at Nicole Kidman or Delta Goodrem (Aussie singer). Look them deep into their eyes. Into the “soul”. Tell me if you start feeling headache in between your eyebrows. If you start loosing your sense of identity.

                        Can anyone sue me of that I said she/he is harboring an asura within?

                        Look at Osama. Doesn’t he give out Lucifer?

                        Some are recognized as bad, some are recognized as talented actors.

                        What about Al Pacino? Did he too much play Lucifer or…

                        These are just some of the categories.

                        There are lover-boy/vamp-girl types, who are not dangerous socially (or?). What you think of Paris Hilton? A personality? But I like her ;)

                        The look at the Aussie opposition leader Mark Latham: He is the incarnation of goodness. You can’t help crying a few tears when you go inside him and feel what he feels.

                        And look at the many East Asians (God save me from racism) – are they not just kids? (I don’t mean the Japanese.) What’s then wrong?

                        Is it such a terrible thing not to have ego? That is the other side of the story.

                        I said,

                        Now this sentence describing the difference between those with ego and those without is very interesting to me. You say "they are unable to think of themselves objectively."
                        You say,
                        I don't actually think I can think of myself objectively. I think my thinking is subjective in the regard of viewing myself.

                        I say,

                        Now this is what they taught us in the school. I didn’t mean objective in comparison to subjective. I meant, “to confront” (but not as anemy), “to face”, ”to stay apart from”, “to look down at”, “to view it as an object for yourself as a consciousness”…

                        What you call “subjectively” is the same as what I call “objectively”.

                        And this is already a good example of distortion of language.

                        So, you as a subject, subjectively view you ego (“yourself”)as an object – this is it!

                         

                        You say,

                        I think I would have to rely on the views of others or a mirror image seen outside myself to view myself as an object. So there is the question of the viewer that has occupied much better minds than mine. Emerson comes to mind here and when he dealt with this question, as I recall he just came to the fact that he was either good essentially or not.
                        I say,

                        This is how we are deluded to compromise our self evaluation.

                        Look. When you think of what you’ve done the day before, do you not think of yourself as an object? When you perform self-criticism in words like, ” much better minds than mine” is that not facing yourself? No matter that you under evaluate yourself.

                        Are not able to reflect on your deeds or say if they are good or bad?
                        You say,

                        Snuffle, snuffle, snore, snore more snore... sleeping right on through these critical and pivotal times. What about having compassion for them?

                        I say, no problem at all.

                        You say,

                        What if it's like they are all trapped in a high-rise apartment building asleep with a raging fire developing on a lower floor.

                        I say,

                        These guys I talk about like the fire and they dance. It won’t hurt them. My house is not in fire on the other hand. It is protected by guards with white wings.

                        You say,

                        Well, you know smoke kills most fire victims. The smoke gets you long before the fire ever does. So let's say you're the only one awake that you're aware of. What do you do? It sounds to me like you are running through the building in search of others who are awake as well. Okay, to what end? What's the goal-if it's to save yourself why not just head for the nearest exit? So you are trying to aid the ones like me who might be deluded in the smoke into thinking they should help the sleeping? I get that but how is it that you, yourself, are immune to the effects of the air?

                        -          I said, my house is in safe. As a loyal firefighter on a day off walking in the street on my way to the disco, I heard voices crying out in despair. Maybe I just had heard wrongly.

                        You say,
                        Sorry to be so hung up on the math but I don't get it in either of these examples. I don't get it with a 10-1, 100-1, 1000-1 ratio how any "good" impulse would survive. This list would be overrun, the election would not be 40/40, it would not be a race at all.

                        - But you said, the previous lists you belonged to have closed.

                        Then also, I didn’t ever say all the egoless are bad. Not at all. And I also didn’t say it is absolutely wrong not to have one. Flowers don’t have one. Birds that sing don’t have one. Many good firefighters don’t have one.
                        You say,

                        I think when we don't take up our space, Ivan, when we don't develop the individuality that we leave ourselves open for other beings to preside, reside, inhabit, otherwise occupy the space. So I agree with you on your perception that there are all these Arhimanic entities surrounding you-I see them too-billions and billions-a regular swarm.  This is a hard thing and a painful reality that you speak of. The even harder thing, in my experience, has been to see through them to glimpse the human being.
                        I say, now we came so close to each other that it makes no sense to discriminate further between our standpoints!

                        I might say that there is a “glimpse of the human being”. We might disagree in our definition of what the minimum requirement is for one to become a human being. What the ego exactly is.

                        When you see something like a torn kid, a little no-one inside someone – is that the ego, or something that will never become one.

                         

                        But I see no point in further discrimination. On the other hand I see someone else, YOU, see the same as I do.

                        Again, please remember, der Doktor says, each degree of evolution can be gone through at the time when it is supported. That some will be retarded if they don’t imbibe the Christ Principle… while some had retarded before…

                        I said,
                        Then let me conclude with this, and you may despise me in the fullest after the last words (wouldn’t be the first time):

                        You said,
                        I do not despise you nor do I find anything you have brought to be despicable. I have heard the same things before and, from some fairly prominent anthroposophists. I am actually very interested in understanding what the underlying premise for this worldview is.

                        I say, sh*t, I didn’t know of them saying this!! I thought I and my darling are maybe a little too prone to fantastic dreaming… in depth of my critical soul. And I didn’t hold myself to be an authority! Is this a revelation! Why you didn’t start with this?

                        I might have been blunt and courageous, but I still wanted to have approval from someone more, to be objective…!

                        I said,
                        You say you think the good and bad are not a question of mathematics. I can then suppose you think good and bad are inside every one of us the same way. (That is again, inside-statistics?)
                        You said,

                        Yeah that's what I thought-I thought this was the battle. The internal struggle for good. Some are more successful than others.

                        I say,

                        That is truth – for all humans ! Not for the others.


                        Not as simple as that! Good and bad are inside every one of us HUMANS in the same way.

                        You say,
                        Now you say "not as simple as that"-but I don't see this inner struggle as simple at all. It's quite complex, and painful, and hard-it's a regular wrestling match. But again, Ivan, I can agree with you that good and evil don't exist in the same way in all human beings I just don't understand the need to throw out the ego
                        .

                        I agree. I am blunt to speak this way I do with a good reason. I have been being pained enough.

                        You say,
                        Now this is news to me as I have a somewhat different concept of the Asuras. To see them solidified and embodied in one close individual or even a form like a doppleganger is not a thought I have considered before.

                        I say,

                        I didn’t think of a Doppelganger. They are not solidified. They look quite romantic. In a human body. No joke. You bet one can only feel pity for them. Their famous game is “poor me”.

                        What they themselves are is really diffuse, or like a black hole that wants to suck in your personality. They actually do so. I came to their identity by connecting this experience with what Dr Steiner said of asuras. “So it could only be them”.

                         

                        Val, look you see in what mess we are when we wake up at this sleeping orgy. I am so happy I had this chance to find you who share this nice night mare ;)

                        But let’s not forget the Spiritual Sky with the colors and forms of pure love and bliss, with the tears of compassion… we should not look down and around only.

                        And when looking around we see we have are spiritual sisters and brothers – what does it matter if *they* have ego or not? After all, are we not free do chose? Were we not free to chose?

                         

                        Thank you for your response, Val!

                         

                         



                        wdenval@... wrote:
                        Dear Ivan.

                        Thank you for your response to my questions. I agree with much of what you are saying but am still having difficulty with some points. It seems to me that your world concept and mine are but one degree off and as you say about the upcoming election-it's the gap we should be concerned with.


                        The expression "take an individual part in establishing a strong and healthy anthroposophical presence on the Internet" is not mine, I have taken it from the home page of this group. Nevertheless, I agree with it and I am doing my best to do so. I think this group could give me more ideas of how I can do even more or I could find partners for that here.

                        I agree with this statement as well and I think your particular posts and views are of the most instructive to come along regarding this goal.


                        On the other hand I don’t think that we have so many Internet users who are able and willing to take our message. That is not a problem as we are not going in for numbers or mathematics as you say. But we seem not to need to carry the message out to 5 billions of people.

                        But, as you say there are 5 billion plus physical beings on the planet. If there are only a few million Human beings isn't the deck stacked against the humans? What do you see as the nature of the conflict and that conflict's resolution?


                        What I can sense is that out of 100 or more, maybe even 1000 people there is only one that has a centre of personality. The most people mock up what they find around them or in the media to build up a fake image and pretend to be a person. I might be wrong in numbers, but there is truth in the fact. “Mathematics” is here just for the illustration.

                        Now for me, Ivan, I've never met anyone in whom I didn't sense a "centre of personality" though, I have to admit there are a certain few individuals who really gave me a run for my money in this regard.


                        I agree with you on all your examples of smoke and mirrors. I think my point of departure is the causal nature of them. It seems to me that you are saying the fake image, etc. are the manifestation/reflection/presentation of an egoless human being. Why egoless? Why not asleep, anesthetized, drugged, suppressed, depressed, oppressed, compressed, hypnotized, poisoned, MIS-educated, misdirected, lost?

                          

                        On the other side, I have recently spent a few years living in Australia and what I can state with full conviction and liability is that Australia is an ahrimanic fortress. You can compare the face of Prime Minister John Howard to the wooden carving of Ahriman’s head by Dr Steiner.


                        He's coming up as an image more and more, Ivan. Are you familiar with the children's books, A Series of Misfortunate Events. The illustrations of Count Olaf with, and this was the dead give away for me, Ivan, the tattooed eye on his ankle, is an absolute ringer for Ahriman.


                        We are usually lulled by what we learned about people in school, by political pamphlets, like “all the *men* are born equal” (they meant – naked?), and our own good will to see others as good as we are. The truth is far from that.


                        We ARE lulled. I assume here you are referring to the humans falling asleep to the situation. Again, I can't understand why or how this doesn't apply to everyone. Why can't some just be more asleep than others, maybe some knocked out cold?

                        We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal... Well, exoterically I always thought this meant that we hold all men to be equal under the law. Esoterically, I thought it was exactly as you say-naked. In that we all come into the world and go out of the world in the same manner. Again what you are bringing is fundamentally a different picture and yes, I thought this is what these words meant. I thought this was a principle this country was built on, that at our heart or core-we are all in essence common or the same. This is exactly what, for me makes the recent actions of this nation, so tragic. So painfully tragic.

                        Then what makes these people different? They are unable to think of themselves objectively. They lack self-criticisism. The question, “am I perhaps lacking some merits” that you came up with, asking if you are not one of these egoless ones – this question would had never come to them.

                        Again, Ivan they could just be snoozin' could be the annoying snoring noise that you're hearing. It's been my experience that it can be really annoying to the point of just wanting to reach for the ear muffs, Ivan-I know it bothers the hell out of Bradford. Now this sentence describing the difference between those with ego and those without is very interesting to me. You say "they are unable to think of themselves objectively."

                        I don't actually think I can think of myself objectively. I think my thinking is subjective in the regard of viewing myself. I think I would have to rely on the views of others or a mirror image seen outside myself to view myself as an object. So there is the question of the viewer that has occupied much better minds than mine. Emerson comes to mind here and when he dealt with this question, as I recall he just came to the fact that he was either good essentially or not.


                        The trap of self-observing and self-criticism is reserved for high souls. (This is not meant, to flatter you, Val. ;)

                        Too bad because, as they say flattery, Ivan will get you everywhere. : ) Now, I came to this question and I said well, I think I'm one of the good guys which is the optimistic view. But in doing so, in constructing my self-concept based on an assumption, a presumption, a hypothesis, a guess I HAVE TO extend the benefit of doubt to everyone else. I can't have it both ways and I'm not really understanding how you can either.

                        Exactly those that have no ego do behave like egoists – selfishly and taking no others into account; not to mention any compassion that they would have.

                        Snuffle, snuffle, snore, snore more snore... sleeping right on through these critical and pivotal times. What about having compassion for them? What if it's like they are all trapped in a high-rise apartment building asleep with a raging fire developing on a lower floor. Well, you know smoke kills most fire victims. The smoke gets you long before the fire ever does. So let's say you're the only one awake that you're aware of. What do you do? It sounds to me like you are running through the building in search of others who are awake as well. Okay, to what end? What's the goal-if it's to save yourself why not just head for the nearest exit? So you are trying to aid the ones like me who might be deluded in the smoke into thinking they should help the sleeping? I get that but how is it that you, yourself, are immune to the effects of the air?


                        Val, you say, “If I were retarded wouldn't I be counterproductive to the list's health? Or would the list be stronger for the adversity of having me? Would I just be destined to wait until others figured out that I was totally devoid of individuality”.
                        I don’t mean to go for a witch-hunt. Those that have ego in Steiner’s sense (not in common language or professional sense) will pull the list forward. If a list survives it means there is a healthy core of people in it that give it a boost. But it’s not bad even for them to know what’s behind the human appearances.

                        If any group of people consists of 40% good and 40% bad and the flip-flopping in between that decide the elections ;) – that is but “the way of the world” and we can accept it. The question is: why not be conscious of that?

                        Sorry to be so hung up on the math but I don't get it in either of these examples. I don't get it with a 10-1, 100-1, 1000-1 ratio how any "good" impulse would survive. This list would be overrun, the election would not be 40/40, it would not be a race at all.

                        Think of George W. and if he has an ego or just pretends to be someone. Who is completely unable to think as a human being but learns all citations and speeches by heart. Think of his voters that make for more than 40% of the citizens of USA. Where they belong?
                        Think of all the anonymous numbers (of people) showing no emotions, having no trouble inside them or being content with the given situation in the world. Think of the rugby players; watch their face expression(s). Watch the TV program see its content, watch the ads.


                        What if old George has an Ego AND he is pretending to be someone else-like the POTUS for instance? You have no doubt heard of "The Peter Principle"-the concept that people rise to exceed their competency? So what happens then? When they are no longer competent in their positions/stations in life? What could arise? What does this provide an opportunity for ideally? What does arise? What do we see happening as a practical matter?

                        Do you think that we are the victims of bad luck so that there are so many wars and murder going on in the world? That all that people are good? That they can think or they are conscious?


                        I think all people are essentially good, I do believe in the divine spark residing in all humanity. As I have explained I have to or I could not believe that it resides in me. I believe all people can think, I do not have much indication that people are conscious. I think we are victims of our unconsciousness, our lack of will and resolve, and our undeveloped heart forces. I think when we don't take up our space, Ivan, when we don't develop the individuality that we leave ourselves open for other beings to preside, reside, inhabit, otherwise occupy the space. So I agree with you on your perception that there are all these Arhimanic entities surrounding you-I see them too-billions and billions-a regular swarm.  This is a hard thing and a painful reality that you speak of. The even harder thing, in my experience, has been to see through them to glimpse the human being.

                        Then let me conclude with this, and you may despise me in the fullest after the last words (wouldn’t be the first time):


                        I do not despise you nor do I find anything you have brought to be despicable. I have heard the same things before and, from some fairly prominent anthroposophists. I am actually very interested in understanding what the underlying premise for this worldview is.

                        You say you think the good and bad are not a question of mathematics. I can then suppose you think good and bad are inside every one of us the same way. (That is again, inside-statistics?)

                        Yeah that's what I thought-I thought this was the battle. The internal struggle for good. Some are more successful than others.


                        Not as simple as that! Good and bad are inside every one of us HUMANS in the same way.

                        Now you say "not as simple as that"-but I don't see this inner struggle as simple at all. It's quite complex, and painful, and hard-it's a regular wrestling match. But again, Ivan, I can agree with you that good and evil don't exist in the same way in all human beings I just don't understand the need to throw out the ego
                        .

                        Exactly people like you, Val and many of you here in this group are exposed to danger because you presuppose that you are surrounded with intelligible, human-hearted and good willing people.


                        I presuppose no such thing yet I have sometimes been able to perceive something else.


                        You are in danger, because if you have developed to consciousness soul, an assura is there beside you inside a human body and she/he might be your next of kin.
                        If you are working on your spiritual self, then the sixsixsix is close by. And he might be your next of kin, friend or someone “you can’t live without”.

                        And usually, the good people like you are ready to swear about their fellows, loyal and trusting to the end. They feel it is embarrassing to think bad about others and they will rather not pay attention to what someone like me says – after all what I say is not a “positive message” while the good people don’t like negative input.

                        Now this is news to me as I have a somewhat different concept of the Asuras. To see them solidified and embodied in one close individual or even a form like a doppleganger is not a thought I have considered before. They seem much more diffuse to me-much more legion. Where are you getting this from? I don't believe that I am embarrassed to think ill of others nor am I embarrassed to say that I think ill of others all the time-it actually occupies me at times and then we've got a wrestling match on our hands. But I don't block those thoughts, or suppress those thoughts, or repress those thoughts, or stick them in the closet. I think them, and sometimes I think them hard-with feeling. I think that this is part of the process of thinking and that our society and our understanding of spirituality precludes us from taking this important (for me often reflex) step. Thinking our thoughts and feeling our feelings and owning them as part of us rather than alienating them and that part of us at the same time if that makes any sense at all. -Va
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                      • wdenval@aol.com
                        ... Ivan, Can you be more specific as to what the Great Plan is or even what the Plan is, where you first heard of it or how you gleaned it s design? I think
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 28, 2004
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                          In a message dated 10/28/2004 1:42:48 PM Mountain Daylight Time, ivan writes:


                          It looks like while we were asleep, the enemy has killed our troops. I don’t know if there is a minimum of us needed for the Great Plan to come truth, but not many people have come to the stage according to the Plan – you have to admit.


                          Ivan,

                          Can you be more specific as to what the Great Plan is or even what the Plan is, where you first heard of it or how you gleaned it's design? I think that maybe I have been where you are before or at least in the general vicinity but I am not sure. I don't know, am not privey to the plan as it was never revealed to me so I can't really admit anything regarding our progress or lack thereof.-Val

                        • wdenval@aol.com
                          Dear Ivan, Sorry-I did not see your entire post and responded too soon, though I would much appreciate it if you could expand on the idea of the Great Plan.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 28, 2004
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                            Dear Ivan,

                            Sorry-I did not see your entire post and responded too soon, though I would much appreciate it if you could expand on the idea of the Great Plan.


                            This is by itself enough to me. If I only give some food for thought and some one seriously enough goes through it, I’d be happy. What I came to see I would rather not believe – my standpoints. I am not happy with what I found out. I am not attached to my world view of the kind.

                            I think I am kind of attached to my worldview, honestly. I am happy with it-it serves me and I can find my place in the world through it. Plus there's the huge intellectual, emotional, financial investment of years studying psychoanalysis followed by years studying psychosynthesis to consider.

                            This thing bothers me a lot. I didn’t want to believe it myself, I was depressed, upset and helpless. The whole atmosphere around us is full of demons. This looks like a horror movie. I have no choice then to pretend I’m Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense ;) One should not lose humor.

                            But Ivan, Bruce Willis was dead and didn't know it. I think you are saying that you are alive, conscious of this fact and the fact that most everyone else doesn't exist as an ego-being.

                            I hated evangelism all my life and all the conversions and competition between the clans. Not to mention what they did besides to the “third world”. But we need to “advertise”, to do a lot of “marketing” if you forgive me the concept – it might be ahrimanic strategy against – Ahriman. But did not the Apostles do the thing and were they not advised by Our Lord, “be cunning like snakes and mild as pigeons” (just a paraphrases, I don’t exactly remember the wording). (This concept reminds us of Quetzalcoatlo, the feathered snake from the South American mythology, by the way.)

                            I've got nothing against fighting Ahriman with ahrimanic forces hence we are here.

                            You say,
                            I agree with you on all your examples of smoke and mirrors. I think my point of departure is the causal nature of them. It seems to me that you are saying the fake image, etc. are the manifestation/reflection/presentation of an egoless human being. Why egoless? Why not asleep, anesthetized, drugged, suppressed, depressed, oppressed, compressed, hypnotized, poisoned, MIS-educated, misdirected, lost?

                            I say, please, check and recheck. I’d be happy if I’m wrong.

                            Yup, they are definitly in there-under deep, deep cover-lots of blankets and layers, bundled tight.

                            Use your empathic capacity to enter their center of motivation, of identity.

                            Empathy is a fascinating word, I think. Came into the language just this century, right? Carl Rodgers began using it-means something along the lines of connecting with "the other". I have never had a situation where there was not an identity to connect to however some have been extremely difficult to encounter and I was only successful after a period of several years of close association. Center of motivation, for me is another thing, and you are right, can be behind, in front, beside the person definetly not ego-driven or identity driven. This is not the same for me as them not having an ego-identity.


                            But what about those that der Doktor names as belonging to the great ancient Chinese civilization that couldn’t develop further because they hadn’t had the seed of the ego implanted in time of Atlantis? And there were other civilizations, too… That means quite a few fellows… are running around without egos.

                            I hope that Bradford or Stephen or someone else who can speak much more eloquently on this topic will address this.

                            Okay, you can call it sleep. Some sleep so intensely that the demons overtake their physical body, their etheric body, and astral body. Don’t we come to the same result?

                            I didn't say that I differed with you in perception of results-I said I think the difference in opinion is what is causal.


                            You say,
                            We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal... Well, exoterically I always thought this meant that we hold all men to be equal under the law.


                            I say, I didn’t. I heard it only from Dr Steiner. I was foolish enough to think we are equal as humans

                            I never thought we were born into this world with equal potential or equal capacities. I was never taught that. It seems to be a more recent thought if you don't mind me asking how old are you? I am 44.

                            I say compare people to one another.

                            I say connect what is alive in me with what is alive in them and learn to see I to I. This is instructional for both parties.

                            Look at Nicole Kidman or Delta Goodrem (Aussie singer). Look them deep into their eyes. Into the “soul”. Tell me if you start feeling headache in between your eyebrows. If you start loosing your sense of identity.

                            Now see, this sounds like an inversion of what I'm saying above. No, I am not going to lose my sense of identity and it sounds like you are assigning power to a non-entity over an ego being. Now, yeah I might get really angry or dispare or have some emotional reaction, I might get a "startled deer in the headlights immobilzation" reaction-hasn't happened yet but it could-I'm still going to know who I am.

                            I say,

                            What you call “subjectively” is the same as what I call “objectively”.

                            And this is already a good example of distortion of language.

                            So, you as a subject, subjectively view you ego (“yourself”)as an object – this is it!

                            I say tomato you say tomaato... okay, I get it.

                            You say,

                            I think I would have to rely on the views of others or a mirror image seen outside myself to view myself as an object. So there is the question of the viewer that has occupied much better minds than mine. Emerson comes to mind here and when he dealt with this question, as I recall he just came to the fact that he was either good essentially or not.
                            I say,

                            This is how we are deluded to compromise our self evaluation.
                            Look. When you think of what you’ve done the day before, do you not think of yourself as an object? When you perform self-criticism in words like, ” much better minds than mine” is that not facing yourself? No matter that you under evaluate yourself. Are not able to reflect on your deeds or say if they are good or bad?

                            I can, I do, I find myself lacking. But I cannot evaluate my nature as a spiritual being by my material deeds. I have to take for granted the essential nature of my being-that is my point regarding Emerson.

                            I think when we don't take up our space, Ivan, when we don't develop the individuality that we leave ourselves open for other beings to preside, reside, inhabit, otherwise occupy the space. So I agree with you on your perception that there are all these Arhimanic entities surrounding you-I see them too-billions and billions-a regular swarm.  This is a hard thing and a painful reality that you speak of. The even harder thing, in my experience, has been to see through them to glimpse the human being.
                            I say, now we came so close to each other that it makes no sense to discriminate further between our standpoints!

                            As I said in the beginning there may be but one degree of seperation.

                            I might say that there is a “glimpse of the human being”. We might disagree in our definition of what the minimum requirement is for one to become a human being. What the ego exactly is.

                            When you see something like a torn kid, a little no-one inside someone – is that the ego, or something that will never become one.

                            I see both. Both exist in every person as a potential.

                            But I see no point in further discrimination. On the other hand I see someone else, YOU, see the same as I do.

                            Close but not the same.

                            What they themselves are is really diffuse, or like a black hole that wants to suck in your personality. They actually do so. I came to their identity by connecting this experience with what Dr Steiner said of asuras. “So it could only be them”.

                            I have seen the black hole-I have seen it sucking in all life forms around the person. I came to the understanding of this phenomenon through contemplation, thought, and the inner working to understand how it could be so within the worldview I hold. I was in a situation once where many encountered the same phenomenon at the same time. Many chalked it up to the individuals being possessed by Ahriman. I came to a different conclusion after some time.

                            And when looking around we see we have are spiritual sisters and brothers – what does it matter if *they* have ego or not? After all, are we not free do chose? Were we not free to chose?

                            Well, as the saying goes, timing is everything. I think this may be what our differences come to. It sounds like you are saying sometime during a previous incarnation we chose and then we are retarded as a result. I think that's true but that we still maintain the potential, the capacity to choose something better. And it's not all equal-some have much greater burdens or baggage to bear. But yeah, I believe we ARE free to choose, that we are-each of us able to be renewed and redeemed. And yes, that even goes for Hitler, even Hitler-Val 











                          • Tarjei Straume
                            ... If they go for it, yes. It s a choice of freedom, an individual free choice. Whenever you preach to someone, bombard them with thunderous speeches, you
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 28, 2004
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                              At 16:06 28.10.2004, Ivan wrote:

                              >Of course, humans are to be free to chose if they want the divine world or
                              >the other ones. But it just seems to me that, wait a minute - look at how
                              >much propaganda they have from the worldly part, 70+% of the Internet
                              >being pornography, not to mention dirty politics real estate and the rest.
                              >And how much are people exposed to the truths?
                              >
                              >Do people really have a chance to hear there is another way?

                              If they go for it, yes. It's a choice of freedom, an individual free
                              choice. Whenever you preach to someone, bombard them with thunderous
                              speeches, you disrespect their 'I', their freedom. Rudolf Steiner always
                              stressed very strongly that the individual human will is inviolable. The
                              Doctor's feelings about this issue was so strong that he detested
                              hypnotism, for instance, and said it was a kind of left-handed occultism or
                              black magic.

                              >And exactly because those that are among the humans who are not really
                              >their friends, and from the other side because they need to develop
                              >individuality independent from Gods – I don’t think of an “evangelization”.

                              Who are you talking about here besides humans? Fallen spirits?

                              >“Mock up” is an expression from the Dictionary of English Language; it
                              >means imitation with the use of the Latin word;

                              It was also a tech expression used by Ron Hubbard in dianetics, to the best
                              of my recollection.

                              >Building up something by copying the existing examples. But if there is a
                              >need to free anthroposophy of all suspicious elements than I understand
                              >why I haven’t ever been a part of a group. I never liked to be scanned and
                              >profiled; these politics resemble the post Fahrenheit 9/11 Bush-like politics.

                              I'll give you a full score on that one, buddy. I agree a hundred percent.

                              >What I can say about people going around with no “I” is what I see as a
                              >anthroposophically, vedantically, etc. oriented analytical psychologist.
                              >But what RS said is that the whole culture of for example ancient
                              ><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =
                              >"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />China couldn’t get further
                              >from a certain point of cultural development because that (ancient group
                              >of) people have not imbibed the ego-principle in the middle of Atlantis
                              >time and the times are long ago finished when it was possible.

                              Again, Steiner also stressed the importance of distinguishing group karma
                              from individual karma.

                              >Let me ask you back, do you think Bin Laden is a normal guy? Do you think
                              >Hitler had an ego? Stalin? Dr Joseph Mengele?

                              Yes, they may all have an 'I', a spark of divinity that may evolve from the
                              darkest of shadows. I'll repeat an RS quote for the sixth or seventh time
                              on this list:

                              *************************************************************************************

                              Besides love there are two other powers in the world. How do they compare
                              with love? The one is strength, might; the second is wisdom. In regard to
                              strength or might we can speak of degrees: weaker, stronger, or absolute
                              might - omnipotence. The same applies to wisdom, for there are stages on
                              the path to omniscience. It will not do to speak in the same way of degrees
                              of love. What is universal love, love for all beings? In the case of love
                              we cannot speak of enhancement as we can speak of enhancement of knowledge
                              into omniscience or of might into omnipotence, by virtue of which we attain
                              greater perfection of our own being. Love for a few or for many beings has
                              nothing to do with our own perfecting. Love for everything that lives
                              cannot be compared with omnipotence; the concept of magnitude, or of
                              enhancement, cannot rightly be applied to love. Can the attribute of
                              omnipotence be ascribed to the Divine Being who lives and weaves through
                              the world? Contentions born of feeling must here be silent: were God
                              omnipotent, he would be responsible for everything that happens and there
                              would be no human freedom. If man can be free, then certainly there can be
                              no Divine omnipotence.

                              Is the Godhead omniscient? As man's highest goal is likeness to God, our
                              striving must be in the direction of omniscience. Is omniscience, then, the
                              supreme treasure? If it is, a vast chasm must forever yawn between man and
                              God. At every moment man would have to be aware of this chasm if God
                              possessed the supreme treasure of omniscience for himself and withheld it
                              from man. The all-encompassing attribute of the Godhead is not omnipotence,
                              neither is it omniscience, but it is love - the attribute in respect of
                              which no enhancement is possible. God is uttermost love, unalloyed love, is
                              born as it were out of love, is the very substance and essence of love. God
                              is pure love, not supreme wisdom, not supreme might. God has retained love
                              for himself but has shared wisdom and might with Lucifer and Ahriman. He
                              has shared wisdom with Lucifer and might with Ahriman, in order that man
                              may become free, in order that under the influence of wisdom he may make
                              progress.

                              If we try to discover the source of whatever is creative we come to love;
                              love is the ground, the foundation of everything that lives. It is by a
                              different impulse in evolution that beings are led to become wiser and more
                              powerful. Progress is attained through wisdom and strength.. Study of the
                              course taken by the evolution of humanity shows us how the development of
                              wisdom and strength is subject to change: there is progressive evolution
                              and then the Christ Impulse which once poured into mankind through the
                              Mystery of Golgotha. Love did not, therefore, come into the world by
                              degrees; love streamed into mankind as a gift of the Godhead, in complete,
                              perfect wholeness. But man can receive the Impulse into himself gradually.
                              The Divine Impulse of love as we need it in earthly life is an impulse that
                              came once and forever.

                              *************************************************************************************
                              - LOVE AND ITS MEANING IN THE WORLD, Zurich, 17th December, 1912, GA 143 -
                              http://www.uncletaz.com/lovemeaning.html

                              I'd like to share another quote ABOUT the Doctor by F.W. Zeylmans van
                              Emmichoven:

                              "The eyes recede deeply under the shadow of the heavy brows. One might say
                              that these eyes are dark brown, but that would tell very little of their
                              true nature. How can we describe them? Sometimes they appear unfathomable.
                              One looks into them as into an abyss, standing dazzled at the brink. At
                              other times it is a depth like a dark night, when no stars are visible, yet
                              their presence is felt. But most of the time the eyes are radient with a
                              warm light. A golden glow lives in their dark brown color. An infinite
                              goodness speaks out of them: A love for all creatures."

                              - An Encounter with Rudolf Steiner: F.W. Zeylmans van Emmichoven

                              Now you can return back to Hitler, bin Ladin, Stalin or whoever.

                              >Or what you call spark of divinity?

                              The 'I' that was granted by Lucifer in Genesis 3:4-5 and confirmed by
                              Christ in John 10:34.

                              >Their physical body surely is a spark of divine wisdom etc.

                              Plants and animals also have physical bodies inhabited by higher beings.
                              It's the erect posture of the spine that makes homo sapiens unique, capable
                              of carrying an "I AM", a divine spark.

                              >There is something good in everyone. That doesn’t mean they need to have
                              >ego or that it is a sin by itself not to have one.

                              No, furry pets may be good without having egos.

                              >They are (the egoless) not always bad. Many want to do good and try their
                              >best. Many or them are simply good, naïve children from within. Many
                              >egoless are harboring divine beings in themselves.

                              That's appicable to the animals.

                              >I don’t even think anyone needs any authority to write or speak about
                              >things that comprise their life-experience.

                              My sentiment exactly.

                              >Back to the Bush, I admit I would also support him in some issues and that
                              >I don’t see Kerry much better than him; the best candidates have fallen
                              >out long ago from the election run.

                              Kerry is the lesser of two evils. He's the only person who can whip the GWB
                              administration out of the White House, which is imperative.

                              >Of course, there are humans who are misguided. I am not one without
                              >mistakes, failures and the like, too, on the contrary.

                              Well, you wouldn't want anyone start saying you didn't have an 'I' or an
                              ego, would you?

                              >My opinion is that Bush is a egoless big daddy’s big boy who has been
                              >chosen by the evil to confuse people’s mind with his naive and innocent
                              >unknowingness. That is my opinion.

                              Well put, but I disagree about that egoless thing.

                              >I give my respect to them, but I do not wish to mix with them. Moreover,
                              >the 47 or so voters of Bush are not all egoless, I didn’t say so.

                              As far as I'm concerned, I think it's too far out to start speculating
                              about which human beings around us are egoless. I kind of sense it's misguided.

                              >Regarding their folk-spirit we can think about it. Which is the Aussie
                              >common soul? The Aboriginal?

                              Wouldn't it be the totality of the ethnicities as they are? Wouldn't a
                              typical Aussie common soul be, say, a quarter Aboriginal, a quarter Asian,
                              and half Anglo? Wouldn't an Aussie common soul have all the histories, all
                              the adventures and expeditions and dramas? Incidentally, did you hear about
                              Burnam Burnam, the first Aboriginal chief to become a member of the
                              Anthroposophical Society? If not, check this out:
                              http://www.uncletaz.com/burnam.html

                              >Exactly USA is where the battle for earth (to use Hubbard’s poisonous
                              >language) is being fight. Because who “reigns in the most powerful nation”
                              >will set the rules to the whole world. At least Ahriman thinks this way.

                              The land that is America today will be harboring the destructive,
                              egoistical forces that bring about the War of All Against All and the
                              destrcuction of the seventh and final post-Atlantean epoch, and thus the
                              end of the great 4th epoch. That's why it's so important to distinguish
                              between inidvidual karma and national karma.

                              Cheers,


                              Tarjei
                              http://uncletaz.com/
                            • Ivan Gottel
                              Dear Val, I don t really like to much talk. I did this essays to see what respond would come, but I don t mean to exchange opinions in full time. On the
                              Message 14 of 29 , Oct 28, 2004
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                                Dear Val,

                                I don't really like to much talk. I did this "essays" to see what respond would come, but I don't mean to exchange opinions in full time. On the Great Plan, a lot has been written and t certainly didn't change in one letter. What changed is the work of the opposing powers and their impact.

                                I was thinking of world-view I'm not attached to in regard only to these "fellows" precise situaltion and where their ego is if they have acquired any.

                                Seems we are colleagues.

                                Yes, exactly that: Bruce Willis wasn't alive in the movie and one who sees all these things feel s/he's not alive too. You're dead for one world (of illusions) and born into another, of visions and revelations. You're once and forever dead to the world of "normal everyday people". But life starts her only, the real-timeless-life.

                                You say,
                                I've got nothing against fighting Ahriman with ahrimanic forces hence we are here.
                                But I meant with commercial means, with marketing and propaganda. Do you still agree?

                                If "they" are there, it depends what we call ego. I don't call ego that which psychology calls ego. Such an ego they have a lot.
                                 

                                You say,
                                Empathy is a fascinating word, I think. Came into the language just this century, right? Carl Rodgers began using it-means something along the lines of connecting with "the other". I have never had a situation where there was not an identity to connect to however some have been extremely difficult to encounter and I was only successful after a period of several years of close association. Center of motivation, for me is another thing, and you are right, can be behind, in front, beside the person definetly not ego-driven or identity driven. This is not the same for me as them not having an ego-identity.

                                I mean, empathy similar to what is being done in the spiritual world - melting into someone or just going into the core of the other being. The faculty to be developed in the 6th post atlantean culture.
                                I don't call "identity" - the ego, not at all. I know science or psychology is doing so. But an identity in my sense is just a bundle of copied thoughts that any actress/actor  can develope for the purpose of just another role.

                                This remains accute, if we stick to the authorities:
                                But what about those that der Doktor names as belonging to the great ancient Chinese civilization that couldn’t develop further because they hadn’t had the seed of the ego implanted in time of Atlantis? And there were other civilizations, too… That means quite a few fellows… are running around without egos.

                                You say,
                                I never thought we were born into this world with equal potential or equal capacities. I was never taught that. It seems to be a more recent thought if you don't mind me asking how old are you? I am 44.

                                I say I am your generation, to the fullest; at least this life. 42. I also see that each of us had had different ideas of what the meaning of the word "equal" had been!
                                You say,
                                I say connect what is alive in me with what is alive in them and learn to see I to I. This is instructional for both parties.
                                But then, what makes a plant alive or a stone is not the human ego, or is it?

                                You say,

                                Now see, this sounds like an inversion of what I'm saying above. No, I am not going to lose my sense of identity and it sounds like you are assigning power to a non-entity over an ego being.

                                I say, identity and ego are not the same. I don't think an identity is something one cannot lose, we lose it after each life, at least. But even ego can be turn inside out and made obscure or turn against itself.

                                And things are a bit different when you sit behind the desk and the patient is - a patient, and you - a psychologist. But what if we remove the desk?

                                But I know you won't give it up. We are both having enough of self determination...;)


                                You say,

                                I think I would have to rely on the views of others or a mirror image seen outside myself to view myself as an object.

                                I can ask you then, where is then you identity? You said you can't lose it for one moment?

                                You say,

                                Well, as the saying goes, timing is everything. I think this may be what our differences come to. It sounds like you are saying sometime during a previous incarnation we chose and then we are retarded as a result.

                                I say, interestingly enough such identification with my species (or not so any more?) didn't come to my mind ever. I have never chosen not to follow the Highest.

                                You say,

                                I think that's true but that we still maintain the potential, the capacity to choose something better. And it's not all equal-some have much greater burdens or baggage to bear. But yeah, I believe we ARE free to choose, that we are-each of us able to be renewed and redeemed. And yes, that even goes for Hitler, even Hitler-Val 

                                I say, with all that identity, who is then that "we"?

                                And who is there to be redeemed or repaired when the ego that makes for individual being is not created at all?

                                Cheers,

                                Ivan











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                              • Ivan Gottel
                                ... Tarjei Straume wrote: If they go for it, yes. It s a choice of freedom, an individual free choice. Whenever you preach to someone,
                                Message 15 of 29 , Oct 29, 2004
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                                  to:

                                  >Do people really have a chance to hear there is another way?
                                  Tarjei Straume <cyberuncle@...> wrote:
                                  If they go for it, yes. It's a choice of freedom, an individual free
                                  choice. Whenever you preach to someone, bombard them with thunderous
                                  speeches, you disrespect their 'I', their freedom.

                                  Do you think the media respects people's freedom? Do you really think it's enough to "go fot it" when people ARE hympnotyzed by the system (that Ahriman and Lucifer make through their people)?Do they not bombard each other with thunderous speeches 24/7? About global terrorism and the like? Did not, for Christ's Sake, Jesus himself give thunderous speaches?

                                  You come to authority,

                                  Rudolf Steiner always
                                  stressed very strongly that the individual human will is inviolable. The
                                  Doctor's feelings about this issue was so strong that he detested
                                  hypnotism, for instance, and said it was a kind of left-handed occultism or
                                  black magic.
                                  --This is in complete agreement with L.R.Hubbard for instance.

                                  You say,
                                  Who are you talking about here besides humans? Fallen spirits?

                                  --Yap.

                                  >“Mock up” ... you say,

                                  It was also a tech expression used by Ron Hubbard in dianetics, to the best
                                  of my recollection.

                                  -- Do you mean that we should not use the words that are used as technical terms in non-anthroposophical circles?

                                  Then we might end up with a Kitchen-English...

                                  You say,
                                  I'll give you a full score on that one, buddy. I agree a hundred percent.

                                  --Let's be clear (Bush says like this, it's his tech)- Dr Steiner used to extensively and intensively analyze the works of any other authors. Is that a privilege of the highest authorities while we have to avoid reading suspicious material?

                                  Should we avoid any human (or subhuman) work just because it is containing half-truths?

                                  Then pal, you're going to lose half of the truth. And remain with - half truth yourself.
                                  You say,
                                  Again, Steiner also stressed the importance of distinguishing group karma
                                  from individual karma.
                                  --It might be a consolation for someone that no one in the group had an ego but individually, they all do have one. Lucky we are.

                                  You say,

                                  Yes, they may all have an 'I', a spark of divinity that may evolve from the
                                  darkest of shadows.

                                  I say, you said yourself: "they may all have an 'I'".

                                  I would just adjust the order of words: "may they all have an 'I'".

                                  Then you quote:

                                   "Love did not, therefore, come into the world by
                                  degrees; love streamed into mankind as a gift of the Godhead, in complete,
                                  perfect wholeness. But man can receive the Impulse into himself gradually.
                                  The Divine Impulse of love as we need it in earthly life is an impulse that
                                  came once and forever."

                                  --It is wise to quote authorities. But between humans, the words denote certain defined concepts and we may use the same word with different meaning. THE love Dr Steiner is here talking about can be said to belong to one degree of love, from another aspect; to be the pure divine love. Otherwise you'll get into trouble if one mother is in this list and she hears you say her love to her child is no love at all.

                                  From -

                                  A love for all creatures."

                                  - An Encounter with Rudolf Steiner: F.W. Zeylmans van Emmichoven

                                  You suggest to -
                                  Now you can return back to Hitler, bin Ladin, Stalin or whoever.

                                  --Do you want to say they are of the same category to be compared to one another. I don't take part in this blasphemy.

                                  >Or what you call spark of divinity?

                                  The 'I' that was granted by Lucifer in Genesis 3:4-5 and confirmed by
                                  Christ in John 10:34.

                                  --And what shall we do with the implantation of the seed of ego in the time that Ahriman first appeared in the earthly evolution during Atlantis?

                                  Are you so sure Lucifer has granted 'I' to every one among these 5 billion humanoids currently living and the rest that are not? As per the Scripts, there were not too many incorporated humans back then; Eve, Adam and Kain and their neighbours...

                                  Did he really give the 'I' 7-8.000.000.000 times?

                                  You say,
                                  It's the erect posture of the spine that makes homo sapiens unique, capable
                                  of carrying an "I AM", a divine spark.

                                  --but capable is a capacity that doesn't necesarrily mean its use. They are capable of carrying an "I am" - that doesn't mean they do carry one...

                                  I said,
                                  >They are (the egoless) not always bad. Many want to do good and try their
                                  >best. Many or them are simply good, naïve children from within. Many
                                  >egoless are harboring divine beings in themselves.

                                  And you said,
                                  That's appicable to the animals.
                                  I can say, you herewith say that childish people are same as animals.

                                  >Of course, there are humans who are misguided. I am not one without
                                  >mistakes, failures and the like, too, on the contrary.

                                  Well, you wouldn't want anyone start saying you didn't have an 'I' or an

                                  --Why didn't I say, "I am..."? ;)

                                  But wait one sec. Having no ego is a virtue in the sense of any great tradition. Why would anyone bother about having an ego? You make it such a fuss, while I can love all the same, with or without ego. For you the egoless are animals and furry pets, for me they are all divine creatures (incl.the devils). So who is here looking down upon creatures?
                                  For:
                                  >common soul

                                  You say,

                                  Wouldn't it be the totality of the ethnicities as they are? Wouldn't a
                                  typical Aussie common soul be, say, a quarter Aboriginal, a quarter Asian,
                                  and half Anglo?

                                  --No way. The common soul has nothing to do with democratic (mis)representation. It need one archangel to function.

                                  Folk souls pertain to a certain number of folks that came about long long ago. No new folks have been created later on; here, the time is gone, it's long ago too late; similar as in case of ego-froming.

                                  The time for the sensual soul to develope was finished with the ancient Egypt, Babylonia, Etruria etc. The time for the development of thinking soul finished with the Roman times.

                                  You can go and try to make those that retarded with the development of the astral body - to enjoy sensual pleasures. But they are in for images and pictures. They buy real estate with a view... They won't ever feel a pleasure. They don't need you to carress them. They don't enjoy food, they just do what is making for the image.

                                  For pleasure you need ego.

                                  Without it, you can't think, you can't make conclusions. Yo can't evolve a thinking capacity without ego. You can only copy thoughts that you find to be prestigeous or suitable.

                                  You say,
                                  That's why it's so important to distinguish
                                  between inidvidual karma and national karma.

                                  --Yap. In various births an individual can belong to many different nations. But the mystery remains unsolved: Where are those that were"in ancient China, those that hadn't got the seed of the ego during Atlantis"- as Rudolf Steiner says.

                                  Have they dissapeared in all of our arguments, somewhere in between lines?

                                  Andnot only them but many more. They are not all Chinese today. They might be evenly distributed in time.

                                  This topic is misguided, you were right. But not by me. There is a huge tendency to obscure and cover this issue - by whom?

                                  Whose interest it is to hide this sentence of Dr Steiner:

                                  "in ancient China, those that hadn't got the seed of the ego during Atlantis built up a culture..." (paraphrase).

                                  Now if you quote Rudolf Steiner to contradict his own statement, that becomes... playing around with the truth, nicely put. Hiding the truth. Is that the function of a anthroposophic group? To control the testimony of RS? In whose name?

                                  If he said that, it means it wasn't too early to do so. He knew exactly how far he could go.

                                  I am not sure he is happy that his work is so "protected".

                                  Should we just go on talking of who was who 2000 years ago and supress our own experiences?

                                  Times have developed since. Ahriman and Lucifer did not abide by the Plan. The demons didn't follow the Divine Plan. Of course. Situation changes. If the movie remained as in scenario then it wouldn't look impressive enough to make us free. We would have seen through. So the unpredictable element is brought in. To make for freedom.

                                  It was possibly not a part of the Divine Plan that human bodies are inhibited by demons. It was not the part of the Plan that human bodies are being conceived that are unable to carry an ego or outnumber the number of egos created.

                                  But I won't make a "hunder speach"here anymore.

                                  I accept your opinion and you as you are.

                                  Cheers,

                                  Ivan









                                   


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                                • Tarjei Straume
                                  Hi Ivan, I don t have time for all your questions, so I ve been snipping down to basics: ... Do all the thundering you want, but count me out as a listener.
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Oct 29, 2004
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                                    Hi Ivan,

                                    I don't have time for all your questions, so I've been snipping down to basics:

                                    I wrote:

                                    >It's a choice of freedom, an individual free choice. Whenever you preach
                                    >to someone, bombard them with thunderous speeches, you disrespect their
                                    >'I', their freedom.

                                    You wrote:

                                    >Do you think the media respects people's freedom? Do you really think it's
                                    >enough to "go fot it" when people ARE hympnotyzed by the system (that
                                    >Ahriman and Lucifer make through their people)?Do they not bombard each
                                    >other with thunderous speeches 24/7? About global terrorism and the like?
                                    >Did not, for Christ's Sake, Jesus himself give thunderous speaches?

                                    Do all the thundering you want, but count me out as a listener. This is the
                                    age of the Consciousness Soul, for self-dependent thinking. I don't listen
                                    to anyone who tries to override that.

                                    >You come to authority,

                                    What authority?

                                    [Tarjei:]

                                    >Rudolf Steiner always stressed very strongly that the individual human
                                    >will is inviolable. The Doctor's feelings about this issue was so strong
                                    >that he detested hypnotism, for instance, and said it was a kind of
                                    >left-handed occultism or black magic.

                                    [Ivan:]

                                    >--This is in complete agreement with L.R.Hubbard for instance.

                                    Interesting. Otherwise, I find it difficult to see RS and LRH in agreement
                                    about anything, especially because the latter regarded Christ as the enemy
                                    of humanity (the evil psychiatrist) and aspired to rescue humanity from
                                    Christ's clutches in the role of the Antichrist.

                                    >-- Do you mean that we should not use the words that are used as technical
                                    >terms in non-anthroposophical circles?

                                    This is a free speech forum where any topic goes and you're free to choose
                                    your vocabulary. I was simply endeavoring to get at the content of this
                                    word in an esoteric context, and it seemed to have a dianetical odor to it.

                                    >Then we might end up with a Kitchen-English...

                                    If you want to use Kitchen-English (whatever that is), go ahead.

                                    >--Let's be clear (Bush says like this, it's his tech)- Dr Steiner used to
                                    >extensively and intensively analyze the works of any other authors. Is
                                    >that a privilege of the highest authorities while we have to avoid reading
                                    >suspicious material?

                                    Who said anything about anyone avoiding reading anything? [An awful
                                    sentence I admit :) ] And I don't know who you're referring to as
                                    authorities (higher or lower or whatever).

                                    >Should we avoid any human (or subhuman) work just because it is containing
                                    >half-truths?

                                    Nobody is telling anyone what to do or not to do. Where did you get that
                                    from? If something is called a half-truth it's a description of how it is
                                    observed or experienced or analyzed by the author of a particular post.

                                    >--It is wise to quote authorities.

                                    I'm not quoting authorities. RS is a source of info derived from the
                                    science of seership. Is a library an authority?

                                    >But between humans, the words denote certain defined concepts and we may
                                    >use the same word with different meaning. THE love Dr Steiner is here
                                    >talking about can be said to belong to one degree of love, from another
                                    >aspect; to be the pure divine love. Otherwise you'll get into trouble if
                                    >one mother is in this list and she hears you say her love to her child is
                                    >no love at all.

                                    I don't understand how you can jump from Steiner's "Love and its Meaning in
                                    the World" to the notion that someone says a mother doesn't love her child,
                                    but nevermind....

                                    >--Do you want to say they are of the same category to be compared to one
                                    >another. I don't take part in this blasphemy.

                                    You don't have to. My point is that unconditional love for all living
                                    creatures means all living creatures, period. That's the love of Christ and
                                    those who follow Him.

                                    >--And what shall we do with the implantation of the seed of ego in the
                                    >time that Ahriman first appeared in the earthly evolution during Atlantis?

                                    That's the birth of the human intellect. It's the task of humanity to
                                    capture the intellect from Ahriman and give it back to Michael.

                                    >Are you so sure Lucifer has granted 'I' to every one among these 5 billion
                                    >humanoids currently living and the rest that are not? As per the Scripts,
                                    >there were not too many incorporated humans back then; Eve, Adam and Kain
                                    >and their neighbours...

                                    In the Biblical legend referred to, the characters involved represented
                                    earthly humanity, didn't they?

                                    >Did he really give the 'I' 7-8.000.000.000 times?

                                    I don't understand what you mean. Who is "he" ? Yahve-Elohim? Lucifer? Are
                                    there limits to the number of evolving I AM beings in the Cosmos? I don't
                                    think so...

                                    >--but capable is a capacity that doesn't necesarrily mean its use. They
                                    >are capable of carrying an "I am" - that doesn't mean they do carry one...

                                    I'm not going to argue about you saying that such and such people are
                                    walking around with no 'I'. If you choose to think that only a select few
                                    human beings have an 'I AM' while the rest are robots or zombies or
                                    animals, so be it.

                                    >I can say, you herewith say that childish people are same as animals.

                                    No. Im saying that possessing a physical body, an etheric body, and an
                                    astral body but no 'individual 'I' is characteristic of animals. If you add
                                    the 'I', you get homo sapiens. You'll find this among other places in
                                    Steiner's basic books - "Theosophy" foi instance.

                                    I understand that your own worldview differs from this on crucial points.
                                    Why not write an essay that explains it?

                                    >Folk souls pertain to a certain number of folks that came about long long
                                    >ago. No new folks have been created later on; here, the time is gone, it's
                                    >long ago too late; similar as in case of ego-froming.

                                    Group souls are vanishing and individual consciousness is emerging.

                                    >It was possibly not a part of the Divine Plan that human bodies are
                                    >inhibited by demons. It was not the part of the Plan that human bodies are
                                    >being conceived that are unable to carry an ego or outnumber the number of
                                    >egos created.

                                    Sounds to me like the 1978 movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" with
                                    Donald Sutherland and Leonard Nimoy:

                                    http://www.norcalmovies.com/InvasionOfTheBodySnatchers/

                                    >But I won't make a "hunder speach"here anymore.

                                    You don't need to stop that for my sake, but I can't predict how reactions
                                    will be.

                                    >I accept your opinion and you as you are.

                                    Ditto.

                                    Cheers,


                                    Tarjei
                                    http://uncletaz.com/
                                  • Ivan Gottel
                                    Tarjei, These below are not really questions as you might had seen. These were just arguments. As per my questions I have been thoroughly satisfied. My real
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Oct 29, 2004
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                                      Tarjei,
                                      These below are not really questions as you might had seen. These were just arguments. As per my questions I have been thoroughly satisfied.
                                      My real question was how people are aware of what is going on in the world and if anyone sees what I see.
                                      If I am going to preach that will surely not be to a group that is not supposed to lack preachers or teachers.
                                      If I am going to preach, that is going to be to those that are unprejudiced, free from dogmas and able to judge without reliance on authorities.
                                      Regarding the reactions, I will humbly await them the next 7 days and leave. I don't have any intention to further disturb this group.
                                      Love to all,
                                      Ivan

                                      Tarjei Straume <cyberuncle@...> wrote:
                                      Hi Ivan,

                                      I don't have time for all your questions, so I've been snipping down to basics:

                                      I wrote:

                                      >It's a choice of freedom, an individual free choice. Whenever you preach
                                      >to someone, bombard them with thunderous speeches, you disrespect their
                                      >'I', their freedom.

                                      You wrote:

                                      >Do you think the media respects people's freedom? Do you really think it's
                                      >enough to "go fot it" when people ARE hympnotyzed by the system (that
                                      >Ahriman and Lucifer make through their people)?Do they not bombard each
                                      >other with thunderous speeches 24/7? About global terrorism and the like?
                                      >Did not, for Christ's Sake, Jesus himself give thunderous speaches?

                                      Do all the thundering you want, but count me out as a listener. This is the
                                      age of the Consciousness Soul, for self-dependent thinking. I don't listen
                                      to anyone who tries to override that.

                                      >You come to authority,

                                      What authority?

                                      [Tarjei:]

                                      >Rudolf Steiner always stressed very strongly that the individual human
                                      >will is inviolable. The Doctor's feelings about this issue was so strong
                                      >that he detested hypnotism, for instance, and said it was a kind of
                                      >left-handed occultism or black magic.

                                      [Ivan:]

                                      >--This is in complete agreement with L.R.Hubbard for instance.

                                      Interesting. Otherwise, I find it difficult to see RS and LRH in agreement
                                      about anything, especially because the latter regarded Christ as the enemy
                                      of humanity (the evil psychiatrist) and aspired to rescue humanity from
                                      Christ's clutches in the role of the Antichrist.

                                      >-- Do you mean that we should not use the words that are used as technical
                                      >terms in non-anthroposophical circles?

                                      This is a free speech forum where any topic goes and you're free to choose
                                      your vocabulary. I was simply endeavoring to get at the content of this
                                      word in an esoteric context, and it seemed to have a dianetical odor to it.

                                      >Then we might end up with a Kitchen-English...

                                      If you want to use Kitchen-English (whatever that is), go ahead.

                                      >--Let's be clear (Bush says like this, it's his tech)- Dr Steiner used to
                                      >extensively and intensively analyze the works of any other authors. Is
                                      >that a privilege of the highest authorities while we have to avoid reading
                                      >suspicious material?

                                      Who said anything about anyone avoiding reading anything? [An awful
                                      sentence I admit :) ] And I don't know who you're referring to as
                                      authorities (higher or lower or whatever).

                                      >Should we avoid any human (or subhuman) work just because it is containing
                                      >half-truths?

                                      Nobody is telling anyone what to do or not to do. Where did you get that
                                      from? If something is called a half-truth it's a description of how it is
                                      observed or experienced or analyzed by the author of a particular post.

                                      >--It is wise to quote authorities.

                                      I'm not quoting authorities. RS is a source of info derived from the
                                      science of seership. Is a library an authority?

                                      >But between humans, the words denote certain defined concepts and we may
                                      >use the same word with different meaning. THE love Dr Steiner is here
                                      >talking about can be said to belong to one degree of love, from another
                                      >aspect; to be the pure divine love. Otherwise you'll get into trouble if
                                      >one mother is in this list and she hears you say her love to her child is
                                      >no love at all.

                                      I don't understand how you can jump from Steiner's "Love and its Meaning in
                                      the World" to the notion that someone says a mother doesn't love her child,
                                      but nevermind....

                                      >--Do you want to say they are of the same category to be compared to one
                                      >another. I don't take part in this blasphemy.

                                      You don't have to. My point is that unconditional love for all living
                                      creatures means all living creatures, period. That's the love of Christ and
                                      those who follow Him.

                                      >--And what shall we do with the implantation of the seed of ego in the
                                      >time that Ahriman first appeared in the earthly evolution during Atlantis?

                                      That's the birth of the human intellect. It's the task of humanity to
                                      capture the intellect from Ahriman and give it back to Michael.

                                      >Are you so sure Lucifer has granted 'I' to every one among these 5 billion
                                      >humanoids currently living and the rest that are not? As per the Scripts,
                                      >there were not too many incorporated humans back then; Eve, Adam and Kain
                                      >and their neighbours...

                                      In the Biblical legend referred to, the characters involved represented
                                      earthly humanity, didn't they?

                                      >Did he really give the 'I' 7-8.000.000.000 times?

                                      I don't understand what you mean. Who is "he" ? Yahve-Elohim? Lucifer? Are
                                      there limits to the number of evolving I AM beings in the Cosmos? I don't
                                      think so...

                                      >--but capable is a capacity that doesn't necesarrily mean its use. They
                                      >are capable of carrying an "I am" - that doesn't mean they do carry one...

                                      I'm not going to argue about you saying that such and such people are
                                      walking around with no 'I'. If you choose to think that only a select few
                                      human beings have an 'I AM' while the rest are robots or zombies or
                                      animals, so be it.

                                      >I can say, you herewith say that childish people are same as animals.

                                      No. Im saying that possessing a physical body, an etheric body, and an
                                      astral body but no 'individual 'I' is characteristic of animals. If you add
                                      the 'I', you get homo sapiens. You'll find this among other places in
                                      Steiner's basic books  - "Theosophy" foi instance.

                                      I understand that your own worldview differs from this on crucial points.
                                      Why not write an essay that explains it?

                                      >Folk souls pertain to a certain number of folks that came about long long
                                      >ago. No new folks have been created later on; here, the time is gone, it's
                                      >long ago too late; similar as in case of ego-froming.

                                      Group souls are vanishing and individual consciousness is emerging.

                                      >It was possibly not a part of the Divine Plan that human bodies are
                                      >inhibited by demons. It was not the part of the Plan that human bodies are
                                      >being conceived that are unable to carry an ego or outnumber the number of
                                      >egos created.

                                      Sounds to me like the 1978 movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" with
                                      Donald Sutherland and Leonard Nimoy:

                                      http://www.norcalmovies.com/InvasionOfTheBodySnatchers/

                                      >But I won't make a "hunder speach"here anymore.

                                      You don't need to stop that for my sake, but I can't predict how reactions
                                      will be.

                                      >I accept your opinion and you as you are.

                                      Ditto.

                                      Cheers,


                                      Tarjei
                                      http://uncletaz.com/



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                                    • dottie zold
                                      Hey Ivan, I don t think you disturb the group. I think what you are bringing is food for thought. And we all get to think on those things. I personally am
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Oct 29, 2004
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                                        Hey Ivan, I don't think you disturb the group. I think what you are
                                        bringing is food for thought. And we all get to think on those
                                        things.

                                        I personally am wondering when you say the 'I' is not in some do you
                                        mean that they actually lack an ego or that they are unable to attain
                                        the 'I AM' in this lifetime, that they will fail to connect with
                                        their given birthright?

                                        In regards to the 'I' not being I do believe the Doctor spoke of this
                                        in the future did he not? I personally can see a time when there will
                                        be an 'I' totally driven by what is called 'ahrimanic and luciferic'
                                        understandings through and through. But this for me is the coming
                                        evil which I do not sense now.

                                        And what do you suppose to do in regards to those who you note so
                                        lack this 'I'? What is your hope to see?

                                        Bradford one time spoke of how Scientology works by cutting
                                        the 'feeling' off from the thinking and the willing. I understand
                                        that when interacting with students of Scientology. However I also
                                        note that many of them are taking just what they need even though I
                                        am aware that they can get pulled into the deeper aspects of
                                        Scientology that do not serve. Its hard to partake in a group and
                                        only take out what you need without getting sucked into the undertow.

                                        My best,
                                        Dottie
                                      • wdenval@aol.com
                                        In a message dated 10/28/2004 6:10:59 PM Mountain Daylight Time, sardisian ... Well, my first thought here was insanity rules-like you said you always find the
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Oct 29, 2004
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                                          In a message dated 10/28/2004 6:10:59 PM Mountain Daylight Time, sardisian writes:

                                          But, alas, and for good, Hitler is dead; snuffed forever into the
                                          chaffing flames of inequity.  How could he ever be resurrected? 

                                          Thus, the son felt no recourse except to end it all, on January
                                          30,1889.  Except he was murdered in reality; and made the subject of
                                          a suicide in order to cover up the facts and allow his father to
                                          continue to rule Austria in the nero-fashion that the son came to
                                          know.

                                          Then he was born quickly again on April 20, 1889, in Linz, to a
                                          brutalistic father who would ensure his rise to the Reichstaff's
                                          official ruler; the reincarnation of the emperor himself.

                                          And that is why Hitler is dead; and the black lodge is dead. 
                                          Because it all failed in the end; and all due to Nietszche's
                                          insanity.  He was a freedom-fighter, you know.


                                          Well, my first thought here was insanity rules-like you said you always find the best part last. But the dots aren't getting connected for me as to how Hitler's essence has been snuffed forever into the chaffing flames of inequity. How is it that he was extinguished? Never to be resurrected in any form? And then there's the issue of being reincarnated in some form in just three months-I'm not clear on how that worked in Hitler's case. I get conceptually how incarnations can happen faster now-I get the concept of a shattered, splintered I etc. I just don't get from this brief post how it all came together for this individuality. Which is probably why I can't understand how it all fell apart. Thanks, Val
                                        • Gisele
                                          ~~~~Hang on in there Ivan! I have been away from my addiction number two since last tuesday and finally opened my inbox only this eve, where I discovered your
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Oct 29, 2004
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                                            ~~~~Hang on in there Ivan!
                                            I have been away from my addiction number two since last tuesday and finally opened my inbox only this eve, where I discovered your numerous postings. I have read them all for the past hour and decided I need to print them out so that I may formulate my reactions to you, I need to shut down immediately because I am overdosing after so many days of abstinence. So please don't go until you got my response(s).

                                            Ivan  wrote:
                                            My real question was how people are aware of what is going on in the world and if anyone sees what I see.
                                            ~~~~Understood.
                                             
                                            If I am going to preach that will surely not be to a group that is not supposed to lack preachers or teachers.
                                            If I am going to preach, that is going to be to those that are unprejudiced, free from dogmas and able to judge without reliance on authorities.
                                             
                                            ~~~~That's good, but can we change 'preach' with 'speech'?
                                             
                                            Regarding the reactions, I will humbly await them the next 7 days and leave. I don't have any intention to further disturb this group.
                                            Love to all,
                                            Ivan

                                            ~~~~Not so fast brother! Who said a gust of fresh air is disturbing?
                                            Cheers,
                                            Gixxx
                                             


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                                          • holderlin66
                                            There s no place like home, there s no place like home! gettin back home. Ivan Gottel wrote: in ancient China, those that hadn t got the seed of the ego
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Oct 29, 2004
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                                              There's no place like home, there's no place like home! gettin back
                                              home.

                                              Ivan Gottel wrote:

                                              "in ancient China, those that hadn't got the seed of the ego during
                                              Atlantis built up a culture..." (paraphrase).

                                              Now if you quote Rudolf Steiner to contradict his own statement,
                                              that becomes... playing around with the truth, nicely put. Hiding
                                              the truth. Is that the function of a anthroposophic group? To
                                              control the testimony of RS? In whose name?

                                              If he said that, it means it wasn't too early to do so. He knew
                                              exactly how far he could go.

                                              I am not sure he is happy that his work is so "protected".

                                              Should we just go on talking of who was who 2000 years ago and
                                              supress our own experiences?

                                              Times have developed since. Ahriman and Lucifer did not abide by the
                                              Plan. The demons didn't follow the Divine Plan. Of course. Situation
                                              changes. If the movie remained as in scenario then it wouldn't look
                                              impressive enough to make us free. We would have seen through. So
                                              the unpredictable element is brought in. To make for freedom."

                                              Bradford comments;

                                              First of all, Val, Tarjei and Ivan, interesting stuff. The school of
                                              egolessness and Group entrainment is curious. Whole schools of
                                              thought have arisen where the id, the identity as Val has indicated,
                                              the identity, as Ivan has also indicated, has been the external
                                              image that we have clung to. Steiner in Philosophy of Freedom might
                                              have called this clinging to the dead image, Convention, or doing
                                              what everyone else seems to be doing and fitting in, or at least,
                                              all the way to the philsophy of Calvinism that god rewards you with
                                              riches and an easy ride through materialism, because richness and
                                              being rich is part of the goodness of gods plan. Which has turned
                                              into a recipe for Fundamental christian Imperialism. Anyone who
                                              suffers and has not made material well being is not right with god
                                              and those who are not materialistically successful, are not on the
                                              side of god. Externalized Image of happy face western materialism,
                                              does not penetrate nor yet has the will to penetrate to the deeper
                                              foundations of both education, religion and the roots of the I Am.

                                              I will add to this observation in a minute. This suffering and I AM
                                              and the Ego that gets in the way, of being at one with goodness and
                                              at one with god, and the quest for I AM discovery or discovering I
                                              AM hinderance has brought in eastern ideas that which to dispel of
                                              the ego. There is something in error in the building of the shell
                                              and sheaths of the ego, the tools of thinking needed for the I AM
                                              are countered by bold attempts to numb and remove the I AM, or
                                              remove the mirage of the I Am, tiny ego, has remained a stumbling
                                              block in building a brige to the I Am.

                                              This brings us to certain eastern concepts, where the Luciferic
                                              forces would prefer to remove the baby I AM that is the high seed of
                                              Christ vision. God forbid that Madame Blavatsky and Initiation
                                              Science could produce an Army of Pauline Initiates of the caliber of
                                              Rudolf Steiner and Gandalf Steiner and so many others. God forbid
                                              that the Image of Man created from our education and Science, is a
                                              mirage..and this is what Steiner described in the Michael Letters or
                                              Anthro leading thoughts.

                                              Firstly Group Animalic behavior in the human species mostly amounts
                                              to Sunday lip service and Group religious head bobbing.
                                              Judaism/christianity/Islam and Buddhism all entrain group identity
                                              and pave the way for mistaking the mirage of the ego with the true I
                                              Am, which leads to good ole Orwellian realism. Fears and nationalism
                                              triggered the catastrophe of Germany and it continues to numb
                                              attempts to find the I AM. Group Soul human forces of religious
                                              Fundamentalism are afraid of the the mystery of the I AM and in
                                              truth, are terrified and fearful to approach the connected thread of
                                              karma and deeds presented in Reincarnation of the I AM. Why so?

                                              Each person is different and how to square the Angelic wisdom of
                                              having our Angels be the intimate Nine Layer Chess players who are
                                              the working regents of Star/Incarnation and destiny wisdom that
                                              carry out the decree of the stars and the Spiritual Worlds by
                                              placing the growing individual I AM's in streams of REAL TIME, from
                                              our earthly perspectives, is a thankless task. Humans have been
                                              entrained to hide in faith based, and feel comfortable, abstract
                                              goodness.

                                              Humans can't think these mighty intimate number fields down into the
                                              intimate daily substance of race, langauge and Time. The
                                              construction and pulse of the heart is such an immense mystery that
                                              humans are terrified that this is really all a science of Man, as
                                              Michael presented it, not merely a theory to be neglected and
                                              relegated as whim and fancy and mushy feel goodness.

                                              Most humans are retarded in their behaviorial and emotional
                                              dysfuctions. But you see the Archangels are learning in this cosmos
                                              from the Christ Being, the supervising adult in Charge of this new
                                              creation. The supervising I AM of the Cosmos is built on the
                                              foundation of Love. The gods, most of the big guns have left the
                                              entire Star mechanisms to the Angels and Humanity and Christ and our
                                              friends from below, the anchor forces, Sorathians and ahri and luci.
                                              Christ, Buddha, Christian Rosenkreuz, Initiates, and the great Widow
                                              herself, when we refer to sons of the Widow we refer to the great
                                              Isis/Mary/Sophia herself, widow, widow, widow...Sons of the widow..
                                              have all been left for us to reconnect and find our way home, so
                                              that we lift our Intelligence back into Cosmic Intelligence and
                                              ensoul the Cosmos with human love and freedom, before Ahriman and
                                              Sorath take over humanities failed mission.

                                              Now let me zoom in on group behavior and the Archangelic world. True
                                              we appear in French, Chinese, Italian, Norwegian, German, English,
                                              Japanese, Thai, Spanish...well the point is individual I AM's are
                                              brought into destiny in these specific language, emotional and
                                              thought regions by Angel and Archangel conferences. But humanity is
                                              expanding the borders of destiny, birth, genetics, longer life, but
                                              really have no working model of the Image of Man designed by the
                                              gods. Parent guardian meetings over the destiny of the unborn child
                                              are saturated with cosmic wisdom. These conferences and the learning
                                              issue under Christ mandate is brotherhood and global Consciousness
                                              Soul inner development towards Love and Freedom.

                                              Fundamentalism in either Buddhism or Islam, Judaism, christianity,
                                              all entrain, fairly clear group I AM behavior and entrainment down
                                              to the point of us needing to break from the pattern of conventional
                                              thinking, and discover our own moral technique and come to terms
                                              with our own thinking as I AM Pauline discernment. WE have to dip
                                              our toes into the big picture and the only place that big picture
                                              has been translated from eastern to western updates, with the Christ
                                              Being in it, is Spiritual Science. It is important to become
                                              Anarchists and black sheep and generally discover our own unique
                                              path and learning in the very wonderful system. No being is out of
                                              the system. There is no out of the system. The system is big, vast
                                              and designed by gods.

                                              Calvinism in the U.S. assumes that success and riches based on hard
                                              work tells you that god agrees with your regular materialistic,
                                              group guilt by association, vote, and ideology that supports, not
                                              the unique reality of spread out global individualism, but rather
                                              lends its support to the accepted behavior of 1950's and inherited
                                              British sense of empire vs the heathens. Generally a Puritianism is
                                              mistaken for goodness. This is partly how Martin Luther's wonderful
                                              petition became the boring Puritans and the goody two shoes of
                                              Calvism which has morphed into American Imperialism, false
                                              patriotism and killing 100,000 Iraqi's and counting because god is
                                              on our side. False image of Man, and failure to grasp the I AM.

                                              http://www.urbandharma.org/bdharma2/bd1/d1kusala.html

                                              "In Buddhism, there are two levels of reality, relative and ultimate.

                                              The ultimate is unity, and the relative is diversity. I think the
                                              idea of oneness misinterprets the ultimate unitive experience. Unity
                                              is a much better way of understanding the ultimate level of reality
                                              for a Buddhist.

                                              My body always lives in relative reality. Only my mind can go into
                                              that ultimate place of unity and achieve Nirvana. Some people want
                                              to ignore relative reality and live only in the ultimate, that just
                                              doesn't seem to work.

                                              Great confusion can arise after going into deep states of unitive
                                              consciousness. Where all things are interconnected, interdependent,
                                              and empty of value. Self/Ego can cause much suffering, it is the one
                                              thing that is always separate. But, if I were to get rid of my ego I
                                              couldn't function.

                                              So the big question is... How am I going to keep one foot in the
                                              relative, and one foot in the ultimate? How can I transform ego from
                                              the 'Master' into a much needed tool for living in this complicated
                                              world of ours? How do I find balance, using both realities at the
                                              same time in my everyday life?

                                              PDP: If I use the sentence, and I'm Christian and I say, addressing
                                              the issue of good and evil, if I say, everything God created in the
                                              world, everything, good and evil, everything is connected, as you
                                              use the word, is that very similar? Do we connect as a Buddhist and
                                              Christian with that statement?

                                              REV. KUSALA: Diversity is necessary for unity, and unity is the key
                                              to creating community. According to Buddhism we are all
                                              interconnected. The real challenge for any of us living in a diverse
                                              community, is to find the connective tissue that links us all
                                              together?

                                              Now, if you're a Christian, you might say God is the link. God is
                                              the connective tissue. If you are a Buddhist, you could say
                                              suffering is the link, because all beings suffer. If you are a
                                              mediator, you might say silence is the link, because until someone
                                              speaks everyone is connected.

                                              We're connected because of diversity, not in spite of it."

                                              Bradford concludes:

                                              Now the title of this thread is "back home" and in fact Dorothy and
                                              Toto wanted to click their heels together and get back to Kansas but
                                              were caught in what Val and any researcher would describe as a
                                              deconstruction dream process in the brilliant tale of the Wizard of
                                              OZ. A teaching dream and a near death Initiation insight is offered
                                              as vision into the chaotic triad of thinking, feeling and willing.
                                              Such things happen, like "The Green Snake and Beautiful Lily" and
                                              such deconstructions of the scaffolding of the I AM reveal the laws
                                              behind the construction and psychological scaffolding that supports
                                              everything, literally everything Dr. Steiner outlined as the new,
                                              ground breaking, as Made by God, design codes of how the I AM has
                                              been built. Everything that this so called Michael is holding up for
                                              humanity to get a grip on is generally still met with science
                                              mirage, where the Human I AM is still undiscovered.

                                              In the above link, to Buddhism, is a mild, very mild version of what
                                              Tarjei has indicated as in more militant and viral versions, the
                                              school of droids that have no clue, as IVAN has indicated, what an I
                                              AM is. I mean Scientology and other malignant forces EST for
                                              example, all the way up to the Neocons and down through the
                                              entrainment of religious fundamentalism, group think and general
                                              Orwellian crapology contain viral strains of anti-IAMness. Look
                                              around you, if your are not some scared shitless little buny rabbit.

                                              Now Michael, Michael the Archai, and through the medium of Spiritual
                                              Science we understand that a non-universe, a dead zone of the
                                              intellect is how the Ahrimanic creepozoids, clinging little
                                              corkscrew embedded egregores, bore into the intellectual soul and
                                              have us pretty much convinced that Ivan is right. Humans with I AM's
                                              are rare birds.

                                              The concept that caused me the most anguish and that brought me to
                                              Spiritual Science, is the insight that "if humanity knew the right
                                              thing to do, or the right reality of the I AM they would do the
                                              right thing, wouldn't they? If they knew the stakes and the right
                                              thing to do, everyone would do the right thing if it was explained
                                              to them clearly enough, wouldn't they?" The answer has been a
                                              resounding NO! No they wouldn't. They wouldn't because they are
                                              happy romping around the tip of the iceberg and are terrified of
                                              what wonderful, and I do mean wonderful things, they would find
                                              under the surface.

                                              Instead of Steiner going around Shattering and breaking things, and
                                              he was an Anarchist, don't get me wrong, he built upon the ideals
                                              that humanity has already understood and found that the key to great
                                              works and deep insights is that they all came from human
                                              intelligence and that this layer of being called Intelligence has
                                              been offered in the great vision and being of humanity, as a Michael
                                              gift. But Ahriman and the lower worlds, part of the players in this,
                                              truly, nearly god forsaken part of the cosmos, want literally to
                                              create an alternate universe where Soul and Spirit and human warmth
                                              and the I AM becomes merely a mechanized model. Love and human
                                              freedom are not part of certain beings inner psychological agenda.
                                              They are not built as forces in the universe that way, their
                                              offering is something important but dynamically interesting and
                                              different.

                                              Michael worries about the nature of Intelligence and humanities
                                              relation to Group Think, Group Fundamentalism, Group Political
                                              ideologies and people afraid to see that Spiritual Science builds
                                              upon the rich world which most of us would agree are the things that
                                              are the best and noblest aspects of being human.

                                              Ah, but even if we cited with certainty and I can cite it with
                                              certainty as you can, we can cite with certainty the things that
                                              make us such a wonderful rich creation, human greatness shines
                                              through these things, well... by sheer stubbornness or by the sheer
                                              terror of the I AM that is here in our midst, entire schools of
                                              thought fight tooth and nail against understanding, all that would
                                              be good for humanity to understand. Beings weave into this agenda
                                              and Freedom and the rising Etheric Christ brings forth the highest
                                              and noblest, but Michael must be approached in stages of Freedom and
                                              Initiation, because Michael has always supported the high image and
                                              intiation forces in which Christ and Man are tied together.

                                              But this is not the Borg, which falls into the theme of Sorathian
                                              Matrix theories or Arnnnooold, prophet of Sorath, Terminator
                                              theories, or Orwellian Ahrimanic entrainment...The fact is that we
                                              humans write and discover these post cards in great literature by
                                              humans, who have delivered fragments of the vast picture Michael,
                                              which Michael has wrestled with and we are co-workers in and invited
                                              to join.

                                              You see, to put the matter straight, these other entitities verify
                                              that Man is spirit because they want the fragments of cyanide
                                              shattered shells of I AM's and they want us to imagine there are no
                                              poisoned beings, infected by our anti-spirit activity in the
                                              elemental kingdoms and beings driven out of the precincts of divine
                                              creation.. through humanities errors. The anti-beings are spiritual
                                              and they want us to give them our I Am designed etheric bodies, and
                                              give them our I Am designed astral bodies... and they want to wear
                                              them instead of us. Because they ride on the gods deeds as
                                              parasites. Entire classes of beings above man have woven, created
                                              and brought about the divine system that is man, and delivered it
                                              through Saturn, Sun, Moon and Earth evolutions.

                                              As I have written before, what we imagine as nature, our complacent
                                              view of nature, our Paintings and Photos of nature and fox hunts and
                                              certainty that what we see as a picture of nature, is nature, is
                                              basically a total illusion. It is a tool to build thinking with and
                                              develop dualism, but the roots of our nature are built on the backs
                                              of Beings such as Elementals, Humans, Angels, Group souls of
                                              Animals, projected dead blueprints of the future I AM's in precious
                                              metals and minerals, in their geometry...built on Archangels, Archai
                                              and humans that will ensoul the empty cosmos, this vast cathedral as
                                              Danny has wisely said, this vast Starry cathedral...and this
                                              ensoulment really isn't done by exploration of the outer heavens in
                                              space modules. It is ensouled and changed by the reality of
                                              experience that the dead bring with them from the changed conditions
                                              created by Buddha and St. Francis on Mars.

                                              Ensouling violent worlds, raising beings in the Planets upwards,
                                              following the laws of the Christ Human pattern and paradigm are
                                              resonating with all beings and humans are the elders to the animals,
                                              the elders to the plants that also will become human and the elders
                                              to the stones who will also become human, and we will be the Angels
                                              to the the Animals in their diverse racial and human phase, when
                                              they get their I AM's. We will be the Archangels to the Plants and
                                              the ARchai to the minerals when they arise to their human phase and
                                              all of this is in the seed, the seed of this empty cosmos, that the
                                              gods have left and Christ chose to bring this seed, from our Earth,
                                              and Human to flowering.

                                              Where is your I AM in all this? Where are the many diverse schools
                                              that preach how the ego gets in the way of things, and preach a
                                              fragmented, failed Scientology of Volcanoes and imprisoned beings?
                                              Well the war of awakening our germinal I AM's is still in process
                                              and our discernment must gain some strength and mature outside of
                                              being Catholics, Buddhists, Islamic, Hindus or Judaism. All these
                                              things are fine until we start to deconstruct the cosmic foundations
                                              of the shell of the I AM and the sheaths of the I Am. Here we need
                                              solid courage and experience to think with.
                                            • Ivan Gottel
                                              HI Dottie, I still think I do disturb the group; but you make me care not ;) You say, I personally am wondering when you say the I is not in some do you mean
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Oct 29, 2004
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                                                HI Dottie,
                                                 
                                                I still think I do disturb the group; but you make me care not ;)

                                                You say,


                                                I personally am wondering when you say the 'I' is not in some do you
                                                mean that they actually lack an ego or that they are unable to attain
                                                the 'I AM' in this lifetime, that they will fail to connect with
                                                their given birthright?

                                                --What I see/feel/intuite is that they have absolute determination to serve the opposite purpose, that they don't have any sprout of soul, any inclination towards good. As the times have gone by, they will not be able (if they wanted to!) to connect to "this train". But when there is no ego, or individual soul, then who is in loss. Simply, as Jesus said, some seeds had fallen to the infertile ground, on rocks and stones. They may attain Nirvana in the sense of melting into the Endless Ocean of Bliss - even if they don't have ego - or exactly because they don't. Their birthright is being actually no other than That Absolute Being, the Divine I AM.

                                                And apart from the Great Illusion, the Universe is nothing but the Ocean of Bliss.

                                                Those with ego who evolve further shall be a part of even greater Divine Grace. They shall become gods together. That is the purport of "Gotteswerden".

                                                If there was one Endless Absolute Being (or Trinity) in the Beginning - then there will be quite a few Endless Absolute Beings at the End.

                                                God can create paradoxes. And there is going to be a multiplication of I AM.

                                                Unimaginable, illogical, translogical.

                                                Further you say,

                                                And what do you suppose to do in regards to those who you note so
                                                lack this 'I'? What is your hope to see?

                                                --If I can lend any kind of help (towards the Light) to them I'll do it. But I'll accept their decision to do otherwise with full respect. And I shall pray that they may achieve the Bliss of the Truth.

                                                You say,
                                                Bradford one time spoke of how Scientology works by cutting
                                                the 'feeling' off from the thinking and the willing. I understand
                                                that when interacting with students of Scientology. However I also
                                                note that many of them are taking just what they need even though I
                                                am aware that they can get pulled into the deeper aspects of
                                                Scientology that do not serve. Its hard to partake in a group and
                                                only take out what you need without getting sucked into the undertow.
                                                --I completelly agree with you. They are a bunch of annoying fanatics, arrogant and misguided. But out of the half truths they are in possession of I could get usefull concepts. I think we can use any sources of information and if we are okay, then they will turn good in our hands. Just be carefull; stay off commitments ;) Moreover, Travolta looks to me cool, I like him a lot (Cruise is a bit boring to me, as a sensual soul guy). And they have high degrees ;)

                                                And my best to you too!!

                                                My best,
                                                Dottie





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                                              • Danny F.
                                                ... supreme, ... from ... member. ... eyes. Hi Stephen, Yeah, who is who tiz a story Reincarnational issue Going back Christ Central Question Peter and Elijah
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Oct 29, 2004
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                                                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale"
                                                  <sardisian01@y...> wrote:

                                                  > Bradford is an extraordinary individual. As well, his buddy Danny;
                                                  > the man of the extreme astral-speak, which obviously denotes a
                                                  > heightened level of consciousness soul. I thought he and I were on
                                                  > the same wave-length, but he lets me know I didn't get his full
                                                  > impactus. Then he posts more brahma stuff. Well, Abraham and
                                                  > brahma must be two different things because brahma is still
                                                  supreme,
                                                  > according to Danny. Yet, he says: Before Abraham was, Brahma was!!
                                                  > Right on! But does he get it. No. The cow is still sacred.
                                                  >
                                                  > And then he goes off with this James the Righteous stuff, like the
                                                  > burial box just has to signify that Joseph married the Solomon
                                                  > Mary. Wrong, wrong, wrong. But, he's the man like his brother
                                                  from
                                                  > Texas. So what does that mean? Did they take the First Class
                                                  > training together? Are they secretly members of the notorious CC,
                                                  > which I have yet to find anyone willing to admit they are a
                                                  member.
                                                  > I have always wondered: Who are those guys? Maybe they take a vow
                                                  > of silence and disavowal of anything concerning Steiner and the
                                                  > destruction of his movement; and it happened right before there
                                                  eyes.

                                                  Hi Stephen,

                                                  Yeah, who is who tiz a story Reincarnational issue
                                                  Going back Christ Central Question Peter and Elijah déja vue...

                                                  But regarding my James stuff as James starting point
                                                  And a box not necessary along the way happened to come...

                                                  Why not as a Usual since Zarathustra Jesus
                                                  To put in with the Big Pile of Material Unused?...

                                                  Regarding Steiner and the Destruction of his Sophic Sayings
                                                  By way of Darwinism put him big guy chief
                                                  Of the Tribe - Eye on Top of the Pyramid -
                                                  Shock and Awe him to receive -
                                                  Obnubilated - to Worship...

                                                  `It depends on the human being whether he merely conceives of
                                                  anthroposophy or whether he experiences it.' - Rudolf Steiner

                                                  We depart on the issue of James, but there are many other ones
                                                  To which together we can contribute - needing our Waking Attention
                                                  And Social Brotherliness to remain - our Talks Keep going on
                                                  On other topics we may have an Anthropo-symphilo-sophy to happen...

                                                  Topic of Poetry - you bring a Statement to which the Organic
                                                  In Unfolding is very pleased to corellate with you about this:

                                                  "Architecture Physical body Space body; serves external impulses

                                                  Sculpture Etheric body Harmonious; closely involved with external
                                                  structure, but rhythmic & involving forces of fluidity

                                                  Painting Astral body Sensual expression; more fluid, while yet giving
                                                  expression to space

                                                  Music Ego Expressive of ourselves when pressed down into the astral
                                                  body, but as if in the subconscious there, not yet encompassing the
                                                  higher inner members in conscious expression; moves from space to
                                                  time

                                                  Poetry Spirit Self Higher expression of Ego, involving some fidelity
                                                  to time, but not so much as in music

                                                  Eurythmy Life Spirit Still higher expression of Ego, but both more
                                                  fluid and spatial than poetry

                                                  Steiner did not go on with a seventh, perhaps implying that the
                                                  eurythmy he had initiated was itself the latest such expression. (If
                                                  I correctly understood him, Sergei O. Prokofieff suggested in a
                                                  recent lecture that the "Social Art" would be the seventh, while
                                                  anthroposophy itself would be the octave expressive of the entire
                                                  range of the arts.)

                                                  http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com/Smith/main/burning_bush/charts_ta
                                                  bs/i79.html

                                                  And so back to Sophie the Plant Girl Sophic indeed
                                                  Her Astral and Ego was in a position Special Starry
                                                  Up High but not down as to Manifest correctly in the Body:

                                                  "Her prematureness.
                                                  Her decency and yet innocent simple-mindedness.
                                                  Love to her brothers and sisters.
                                                  Her loved ones. Taste, religiousity.
                                                  Openness. She does not seem to have come yet to actual reflection
                                                  With whom she has been together all her life.
                                                  Did her temperament wake up?
                                                  She reflects more about others than about herself."

                                                  Danny
                                                • holderlin66
                                                  Ivan Gottel wrote: But the mystery remains unsolved: Where are those that were in ancient China, those that hadn t got the seed of the ego during Atlantis - as
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Oct 30, 2004
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                                                    Ivan Gottel wrote:

                                                    But the mystery remains unsolved: Where are those that were"in
                                                    ancient China, those that hadn't got the seed of the ego during
                                                    Atlantis"- as Rudolf Steiner says.

                                                    Whose interest it is to hide this sentence of Dr Steiner:
                                                    "in ancient China, those that hadn't got the seed of the ego during
                                                    Atlantis built up a culture..." (paraphrase).

                                                    Bradford comments:

                                                    The Great Wall of China which could be seen from the Moon by the
                                                    astronauts, apparently sealed off even aspects of the Christ event
                                                    and of course the Mongolian treasures of Genghis and the Atlantean
                                                    migration into the Gobi desert remained sealed secrets. These
                                                    details on the China Syndrome, offer us something interesting to
                                                    consider.

                                                    Reincarnation from the China group soul isolation, to entering and
                                                    merging with western humanity, did not stop the B.C. chinese from
                                                    building pyramids when pyramids were being built and ziggurats when
                                                    ziggurats were being built. Buddha managed to break in to China. It
                                                    did not stop Marco Polo in his invasive trading and discovery, but
                                                    of course the profound Ahrimanic unleashing of Genghis as the leaky
                                                    valve of the sealed east gas leak rush, may not have been the best
                                                    cat to let out of the ancient Atlantean bag. But this Taotl being
                                                    sprang out of the locked chamber with a mad rush for the border.

                                                    China carved very ancient, almost Atlantean memory like ivory
                                                    panels, with those very large headed, very domed headed humans,
                                                    canals and Atlantean nature woven landscapes, done in ivory
                                                    sculpture panels, of landscape scenery from ancient China.

                                                    Detailed carvings of remarkable images of China, canals, waterways,
                                                    and enormously large headed and wise looking humans with big heads
                                                    and large fatty bodies, almost like the picture of ultrasound
                                                    sonogram embryos, wise ancient chinese, three D images, were carved
                                                    in detailed ivory art panels and the faces and human figures all
                                                    seem anciently wise, with emphasis on bald, rounded, well formed
                                                    heads with massive frontal lobes and massive ear lobes.

                                                    http://www.duomoantiques.com/items/96552/item96552store.html

                                                    But my point is to contrast the migratory streams and perhaps look
                                                    at the genghis rush out and the Marco meander into and behind the
                                                    sealed Eastern wall of Ancient Atlantean will as breaking down the
                                                    locked in Group soul forces.

                                                    Now will is something to observe as mirrored activity of almost like
                                                    ant colony will efforts in massive group efforts. Groups that were
                                                    mind controlled by Chairman Mao and based on rigid and imposed moral
                                                    dogma. They sang songs of will, and showed a lack of inner I AM
                                                    control development in favor of the group, hive mentality, but
                                                    dominated by the ideology of a massive, dried out, intellectualized
                                                    communism that levelled the individual back into the group, group
                                                    think. A literal Orwellian experiment. In this the cheerful,
                                                    energetic peoples art, unappealing peoples statues, willful dance
                                                    and political Mao forms of art, seemed to arise as someone like Mao
                                                    also seemed to be bearing a retarded folk aspect, a Folk retarded
                                                    Archangelic aspect that took deep hold of a massive amount of people
                                                    who were apparently falling into total chaos.

                                                    In the Mao Personality cult and wresting China from poverty and over
                                                    population, we cannot see in the language and foundations of the
                                                    Poltical hovering retarded folk spirit over the Chinese, we cannot
                                                    see how this particualar inspired being, hovering over the group
                                                    soul of china, was given tutoring by Archangels of various Beings
                                                    and Languages who truly had taken up the learning curve of the
                                                    Christ impulse. Take the French and Joan of Arc and compare the Mao
                                                    being and personality and the dried out mechanism of enforced will
                                                    ideology, rather ahrimanized political and instinctual, emotional
                                                    control over the egregorical thought life.

                                                    In this very rigid Intellectual Soul experience, Mao hovering over I
                                                    AM and non I AMs, seems that the incarnation group were pressed into
                                                    Luciferic rigid, dogmatic fundamentalistic I AM rules of conduct,
                                                    Almost a Jesuit, without religion discipline of the Intellect, which
                                                    would never even arise as an I AM in an individual from China in the
                                                    time of Mao, without a prison sentence and death, as breaking free
                                                    of the group think process. Automotans of the will had a Bible, the
                                                    little red book, and they experienced this Will centered Ahrimanized
                                                    and poltical fundamentalism with ant like efficiency.

                                                    Now the question we can ask, because we do understand how the Opium
                                                    Wars also shattered and merged eastern culture to Britain and
                                                    because of the Opium induced escape into Luciferic La La land,
                                                    millions of incarnated souls wasted away in Opium dens and their
                                                    etheric and human destiny forces were stunted. WE can ask, where did
                                                    these souls go? From this incursion of Opium addiction for fun and
                                                    profit, a vast chunk of soul life and human karma were returned to
                                                    the spiritual worlds as unused etheric and astral forces, wasted
                                                    lives. A lifetime wasted in unused astral, family life, emotional
                                                    growth, but the stars got back for its investment many handicapped,
                                                    Camp Hill souls who had missed a giant chunk of Time. Yet the money
                                                    and profits and the guilt for these things had to come down with
                                                    those who profited from allowing the Holy Ghost in the Human soul to
                                                    wither on the vine.

                                                    These souls, with the karma of great britain, were merged. Steffen
                                                    takes this up in his drama "Lin". So we can look at some of the
                                                    general symptoms of what Ivan was describing. However opening up
                                                    China, even as Nixon did, has placed incarnation streams that now
                                                    merge into the west and we cannot say, if some have broken into
                                                    Luciferic and finally into I AM rebellion and found their core I
                                                    Am's and also arise in the west.. What, we would have to think, just
                                                    what would be the type of fundamentalistic base of thinking that
                                                    might have come out of China after Mao, and where would these souls
                                                    go with their rigid willful, dried out political impulses?

                                                    ""The Foolish Old Man Who Removed The Mountains"
                                                    In June1945, Mao Zedong, Chairman of the Chinese Communist Party,
                                                    told the following fable at the end of a party congress. It still
                                                    holds value for revolutionaries and workers today.

                                                    An old man lived in northern China long ago and was known as the
                                                    Foolish Old Man of North Mountain. His house faced south and beyond
                                                    his doorway stood the two great peaks, Taihang and Wanwu,
                                                    obstructing the way. He called his sons, and hoe in hand they began
                                                    to dig up these mountains with great determination. Another
                                                    greybeard, known as the Wise Old Man, saw them and said
                                                    derisively, "How silly of you to do this! It is quite impossible for
                                                    you few to dig up these two huge mountains." The Foolish Old Man
                                                    replied, "When I die, my sons will carry on; when they die, there
                                                    will be my grandsons, and then their sons and grandsons, and so on
                                                    to infinity. High as they are, the mountains cannot grow any higher
                                                    and with every bit we dig, they will be that much lower. Why can't
                                                    we clear them away?" Having refuted the Wise Old Man's wrong view,
                                                    he went on digging every day, unshaken in his conviction. God was
                                                    moved by this, and he sent down two angels, who carried the
                                                    mountains away on their backs.

                                                    Today, two big mountains lie like a dead weight on the Chinese
                                                    people. One is imperialism, the other is feudalism. The Chinese
                                                    Communist Party has long made up its mind to dig them up. We must
                                                    persevere and work unceasingly, and we, too, will touch God's heart.
                                                    Our God is none other than the masses of the Chinese people. If they
                                                    stand up and dig together with us, why can't these two mountains be
                                                    cleared away?"
                                                  • Ivan Gottel
                                                    Reflecting on Bradford, Ivan wrote: Many of the elder generation Chineese have found homes in newly created nations . They were just a few decades late to
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Oct 31, 2004
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                                                      Reflecting on Bradford, Ivan wrote:
                                                       
                                                      Many of the elder generation Chineese have found homes in newly created "nations". They were just a few decades late to inhabit Australia so they couldn't claim it theirs; but that is possibly not the nature of copiers - they just go where they see others do well...
                                                       
                                                      Now, leaving China, I must add, that folk is not the only one in question.
                                                      But there is another phenomenon - and I must state again, there is no question of all the egoless being hostile, as per my experience and understanding - look at Thailand, for example.
                                                      They are one of the most liberal (in a sense) and most tollerant, most moderate and most hospitable folk on earth. And there is not much room left here for our imagination of their individuals. Even the face expressions, features and bodily composure are according to one archetypal module (in the "Far East"). Not just the way of "thinking", folklore, or customs. And who cannot say they are good people! (Maybe only some "Christian" anti-condom lobbies from USA).
                                                      And there is many a good folk living in the third world (third - from the perspective of the "first", which was in turn the last to emerge on the political scene of the world).
                                                      One should know them at least from the touristic catalogues.
                                                       
                                                      I have a strong notion that they haven't undergone a phase previous to the mean egoless ones' temptation. They seem not to ever had been tempted! They are innocent.
                                                       
                                                      To find statements regarding the "egolessness" we can also go back to our doctrinal scriptures where it's been said, "many are invited, but few are chosen".
                                                      Or remember the parrabel of the seeds fallen to infertile ground.
                                                      And yes, of course, all shall be redeemed, no worries. But that doesn't mean egos will be created out of nothing all at once where they haven't sprout forth. Redemption doesn't mean that when the school finishes, those that are still in the first class shall be given dissertations and titles; no it simply means the school is over and all are free.
                                                      "The salt doll shall melt back into the sea" as the Vedantic parrabel puts.
                                                      They can still uproot their false ego by doing constant self-enquiry and asking "Who I Am". And they can do it even now and get Moksha (liberation). That is redemption. They should not fear, as what they are is anyway not what they pretend to be, so no one is at lost.
                                                       
                                                      What about the innocent ones?
                                                      Then, isn't that probably the Divine Plan - or a lucky circumstance - that so many have not chosen to undergo the temptation and remained pure as flowers - to counteract the ones who would later go into desire without accepting the ego, the responsibilty for deeds of desire?
                                                       
                                                      Some of these innocent beings harbor very auspicious spirits, high divine beings and fairy-like creatures; some don't go into action while not stimulated; some are simply - simple, innocent but empty and creating no good just multiplying the existent patterns they find in the society around them. Being in America they will go to Macs for food. Being in Asia they will go and meditate.
                                                       
                                                      Many of them comprise the deciding 20% out of the voters who are usually devided 40% to 40% the good and the evil guys. The politicians target these folks and make them flip-flop by their tricks.
                                                      When they join the 40% of the evil, then we have a catastrophy as we had in Hitler's Germany. Yes, they might join the half-truths-ideologies because they are prone to be misguided - being innocent and knowing not how to differentiate the good from evil.
                                                       
                                                      Coming to our brave new "First World", here we don't have too many innocent ones (but we do have them). At least it seems so. But look twice: They might wear cowboy hats, Steierische Vokskustumme and the rest.
                                                       
                                                      To reach to the soul of a fully equipped human being, in the "West" you need to work yourself through crowds of "sensible serious materialists, then the easy-going-having-some-fun-guys and the hostile ones. But where the darkness is the strongest - there also the light abides...
                                                       
                                                      There is one other thing that makes a difference between the folks - the astral aura that hovers over a country. Each country has a flavour - this is what people feel as "national". It is impregnated with their history, e.g. Karma.
                                                      Sadly enough, exactly the new-made "nations" that have no other archangelic guidance but a direct Light of Michael, who is not any more engaged in guiding nations and is Global - these new-made "nations" have pretty badly painted karmas. Genocyde of the inborn people for starting point; then comes outlaw testimony carried from the Old Continent, serving the sentence in prisons, then the gold rush and then coming of all the crowds searching for better *material* circumstances of life.
                                                      Then if you meet a Chineese in Australia, he'll probably smile and say "hoi mite, ots up, seeya layter" with a perfect Aussie accent... to speak symbolically; he'll bear the "national" characteristics of the milieu. Like a mirror that reflects whatever you put ahead of it. He will vote for Howard the Coward.
                                                       
                                                      But are all the Chineese the same? I've met some very kind people among them... so innocent! And I've met an Aussie, a pure Anglo-Saxon cricket fun - with a warm human heart and Christian soul... the difference? His ancestors get there in 1840s - after the prisoners and their guards and before the gold rush...
                                                      What about exeptions?
                                                       
                                                      To make the mystery of this life great and unpredictable - have the gods have been graceful enough to make for exemptions from all rules?
                                                      So we can "forget" generalizations (and leave them for generals?) because if there is one among the all who is good... then one Human is worth a whole folk! (Bearing the same spiritual Word of I AM as any group does).
                                                       
                                                      So wo-man should learn to live with the anwers unsolved; accepting paradoxes as the hallmarks of the divine nature of the universe - ?
                                                      Nevertheless, conceptualizations of this kind can help us in developing a more righteouss attitude towards - people.
                                                       

                                                      holderlin66 <holderlin66@...> wrote:

                                                      Ivan Gottel wrote:

                                                      But the mystery remains unsolved: Where are those that were"in
                                                      ancient China, those that hadn't got the seed of the ego during
                                                      Atlantis"- as Rudolf Steiner says.

                                                      Whose interest it is to hide this sentence of Dr Steiner:
                                                      "in ancient China, those that hadn't got the seed of the ego during
                                                      Atlantis built up a culture..." (paraphrase).

                                                      Bradford comments:

                                                      The Great Wall of China which could be seen from the Moon by the
                                                      astronauts, apparently sealed off even aspects of the Christ event
                                                      and of course the Mongolian treasures of Genghis and the Atlantean
                                                      migration into the Gobi desert remained sealed secrets. These
                                                      details on the China Syndrome, offer us something interesting to
                                                      consider.

                                                      Reincarnation from the China group soul isolation, to entering and
                                                      merging with western humanity, did not stop the B.C. chinese from
                                                      building pyramids when pyramids were being built and ziggurats when
                                                      ziggurats were being built. Buddha managed to break in to China. It
                                                      did not stop Marco Polo in his invasive trading and discovery, but
                                                      of course the profound Ahrimanic unleashing of Genghis as the leaky
                                                      valve of the sealed east gas leak rush, may not have been the best
                                                      cat to let out of the ancient Atlantean bag. But this Taotl being
                                                      sprang out of the locked chamber with a mad rush for the border.

                                                      China carved very ancient, almost Atlantean memory like ivory
                                                      panels, with those very large headed, very domed headed humans,
                                                      canals and Atlantean nature woven landscapes, done in ivory
                                                      sculpture panels, of landscape scenery from ancient China.

                                                      Detailed carvings of remarkable images of China, canals, waterways,
                                                      and enormously large headed and wise looking humans with big heads
                                                      and large fatty bodies, almost like the picture of ultrasound
                                                      sonogram embryos, wise ancient chinese, three D images, were carved
                                                      in detailed ivory art panels and the faces and human figures all
                                                      seem anciently wise, with emphasis on bald, rounded, well formed
                                                      heads with massive frontal lobes and massive ear lobes.

                                                      http://www.duomoantiques.com/items/96552/item96552store.html

                                                      But my point is to contrast the migratory streams and perhaps look
                                                      at the genghis rush out and the Marco meander into and behind the
                                                      sealed Eastern wall of Ancient Atlantean will as breaking down the
                                                      locked in Group soul forces.

                                                      Now will is something to observe as mirrored activity of almost like
                                                      ant colony will efforts in massive group efforts. Groups that were
                                                      mind controlled by Chairman Mao and based on rigid and imposed moral
                                                      dogma. They sang songs of will, and showed a lack of inner I AM
                                                      control development in favor of the group, hive mentality, but
                                                      dominated by the ideology of a massive, dried out, intellectualized
                                                      communism that levelled the individual back into the group, group
                                                      think. A literal Orwellian experiment. In this the cheerful,
                                                      energetic peoples art, unappealing peoples statues, willful dance
                                                      and political Mao forms of art, seemed to arise as someone like Mao
                                                      also seemed to be bearing a retarded folk aspect, a Folk retarded
                                                      Archangelic aspect that took deep hold of a massive amount of people
                                                      who were apparently falling into total chaos.

                                                      In the Mao Personality cult and wresting China from poverty and over
                                                      population, we cannot see in the language and foundations of the
                                                      Poltical hovering retarded folk spirit over the Chinese, we cannot
                                                      see how this particualar inspired being, hovering over the group
                                                      soul of china, was given tutoring by Archangels of various Beings
                                                      and Languages who truly had taken up the learning curve of the
                                                      Christ impulse. Take the French and Joan of Arc and compare the Mao
                                                      being and personality and the dried out mechanism of enforced will
                                                      ideology, rather ahrimanized political and instinctual, emotional
                                                      control over the egregorical thought life.

                                                      In this very rigid Intellectual Soul experience, Mao hovering over I
                                                      AM and non I AMs, seems that the incarnation group were pressed into
                                                      Luciferic rigid, dogmatic fundamentalistic I AM rules of conduct,
                                                      Almost a Jesuit, without religion discipline of the Intellect, which
                                                      would never even arise as an I AM in an individual from China in the
                                                      time of Mao, without a prison sentence and death, as breaking free
                                                      of the group think process. Automotans of the will had a Bible, the
                                                      little red book, and they experienced this Will centered Ahrimanized
                                                      and poltical fundamentalism with ant like efficiency.

                                                      Now the question we can ask, because we do understand how the Opium
                                                      Wars also shattered and merged eastern culture to Britain and
                                                      because of the Opium induced escape into Luciferic La La land,
                                                      millions of incarnated souls wasted away in Opium dens and their
                                                      etheric and human destiny forces were stunted. WE can ask, where did
                                                      these souls go? From this incursion of Opium addiction for fun and
                                                      profit, a vast chunk of soul life and human karma were returned to
                                                      the spiritual worlds as unused etheric and astral forces, wasted
                                                      lives. A lifetime wasted in unused astral, family life, emotional
                                                      growth, but the stars got back for its investment many handicapped,
                                                      Camp Hill souls who had missed a giant chunk of Time. Yet the money
                                                      and profits and the guilt for these things had to come down with
                                                      those who profited from allowing the Holy Ghost in the Human soul to
                                                      wither on the vine.

                                                      These souls, with the karma of great britain, were merged. Steffen
                                                      takes this up in his drama "Lin". So we can look at some of the
                                                      general symptoms of what Ivan was describing. However opening up
                                                      China, even as Nixon did, has placed incarnation streams that now
                                                      merge into the west and we cannot say, if some have broken into
                                                      Luciferic and finally into I AM rebellion and found their core I
                                                      Am's and also arise in the west.. What, we would have to think, just
                                                      what would be the type of fundamentalistic base of thinking that
                                                      might have come out of China after Mao, and where would these souls
                                                      go with their rigid willful, dried out political impulses?

                                                      ""The Foolish Old Man Who Removed The Mountains"
                                                      In June1945, Mao Zedong, Chairman of the Chinese Communist Party,
                                                      told the following fable at the end of a party congress. It still
                                                      holds value for revolutionaries and workers today.

                                                      An old man lived in northern China long ago and was known as the
                                                      Foolish Old Man of North Mountain. His house faced south and beyond
                                                      his doorway stood the two great peaks, Taihang and Wanwu,
                                                      obstructing the way. He called his sons, and hoe in hand they began
                                                      to dig up these mountains with great determination. Another
                                                      greybeard, known as the Wise Old Man, saw them and said
                                                      derisively, "How silly of you to do this! It is quite impossible for
                                                      you few to dig up these two huge mountains." The Foolish Old Man
                                                      replied, "When I die, my sons will carry on; when they die, there
                                                      will be my grandsons, and then their sons and grandsons, and so on
                                                      to infinity. High as they are, the mountains cannot grow any higher
                                                      and with every bit we dig, they will be that much lower. Why can't
                                                      we clear them away?" Having refuted the Wise Old Man's wrong view,
                                                      he went on digging every day, unshaken in his conviction. God was
                                                      moved by this, and he sent down two angels, who carried the
                                                      mountains away on their backs.

                                                      Today, two big mountains lie like a dead weight on the Chinese
                                                      people. One is imperialism, the other is feudalism. The Chinese
                                                      Communist Party has long made up its mind to dig them up. We must
                                                      persevere and work unceasingly, and we, too, will touch God's heart.
                                                      Our God is none other than the masses of the Chinese people. If they
                                                      stand up and dig together with us, why can't these two mountains be
                                                      cleared away?"








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                                                    • Ivan Gottel
                                                      Ivan has one question (more): Intro: Just read Hindustani Times where they say Arnold Schwarzenegger (Schwarz=black. Negger=nigger) is supporting fundraisal or
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Oct 31, 2004
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                                                        Ivan has one question (more):

                                                        Intro:
                                                        Just read Hindustani Times where they say Arnold Schwarzenegger (Schwarz=black. Negger=nigger) is supporting fundraisal or what for the purpose of embryonal cell research with the end aim to clone human babies.
                                                        Question:
                                                        Will the cloned humans have an ego?
                                                        Or shall they be in a position to make one sprout?
                                                        Are we not facing the egolessness problem as an actual one - if not a close future issue?
                                                        How can we know if for example Dr Mengele had not long ego (in the WW2)produced enough scientific material for cloning or ready made clones -
                                                        knowing how sorathian his approach was to study (on living Jews in camps), how sorathian his personality was and his leader...
                                                        Also, IF clones can exist egoless (and walk upright), then why couldn't the overnumbered human species exist the same way.
                                                        But regarding walking upright, I must also state that not everybody walk really upright as it would had been supposed and not every human body is built based on Da Vinci's proportions... some follow the model of Michael, but some of the Dragon - in their looks and obesity.
                                                        Furthermore, they could supposedly project or plan the future clone's biography in advance. As we know, he has only the testimony of one parent.
                                                        Reminds of the old movie about the Boys From Brazil.
                                                        Maybe they won't put hitlers on the mass production line.
                                                        Maybe we get just bushes... ;)

                                                         


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                                                      • Frank Thomas Smith
                                                        egg in Swiss and Southern German dialect, akin to the German Ecke = corner. I assume Austrian dialect is similar. Egg is not an uncommen name for a town.
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Oct 31, 2004
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                                                          "egg" in Swiss and Southern German dialect, akin to the German "Ecke" = corner. I assume Austrian dialect is similar. Egg is not an uncommen name for a town. Ergo, Arnold, or his ancestors, came from a town called Schwarzenegg (black corner). The "er" at the end means "one from", as in Hamburger = one from Hamburg. In any case, it does not mean what you say below. 
                                                          Frank

                                                          Ivan has one question (more):

                                                          Intro:
                                                          Just read Hindustani Times where they say Arnold Schwarzenegger (Schwarz=black. Negger=nigger) is supporting fundraisal or what for the purpose of embryonal cell research with the end aim to clone human babies.

                                                           


                                                           

                                                        • holderlin66
                                                          The idea that Michael wisdom and inspiring human intelligence is everywhere, also reveals amazing insights from Parables, fairy tales, Soloviev, Orwell, Twain,
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Nov 1, 2004
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                                                            The idea that Michael wisdom and inspiring human intelligence is
                                                            everywhere, also reveals amazing insights from Parables, fairy
                                                            tales, Soloviev, Orwell, Twain, films...massive clear cut
                                                            ideological insights that support Spiritual Science rain on us in
                                                            every detail.

                                                            We can learn from such wonders as "King Lear" and the "Wizard of
                                                            OZ", when the great Wizard is revealed, as just a flim flam man, and
                                                            Lear comes down to the sheath and shell of the ego, after he strips
                                                            himself and deconstructs his entire Kingdom to see if his intellect
                                                            can truly understand Love, Lear appears as a partially doddering
                                                            fool. These are wonderful symptoms, studies, insights, all created
                                                            by humans, and if we know how to look into these things using the
                                                            lens of Spiritual Science, you gain real courage as well as humor.
                                                            Learn how to look, study and see with your minds eye and heart how
                                                            Intelligence is the realm of Michael and how wonderful are Humans to
                                                            experience and tell the tale of Beings, Beings hidden in our own
                                                            psyche.

                                                            holderlin previously wrote:

                                                            "Now the title of this thread is "back home" and in fact Dorothy and
                                                            Toto wanted to click their heels together and get back to Kansas but
                                                            were caught in what Val and any researcher would describe as a
                                                            deconstruction dream process in the brilliant tale of the Wizard of
                                                            OZ. A teaching dream and a near death Initiation insight is offered
                                                            as vision into the chaotic triad of thinking, feeling and willing.
                                                            Such things happen, like "The Green Snake and Beautiful Lily" and
                                                            such deconstructions of the scaffolding of the I AM reveal the laws
                                                            behind the construction and psychological scaffolding that supports
                                                            everything, literally everything Dr. Steiner outlined as the new,
                                                            ground breaking, as Made by God, design codes of how the I AM has
                                                            been built."

                                                            THE WILES OF WIZARDS!

                                                            http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/oz.html

                                                            "In the story "The Wizard of Oz" by L. Frank Baum, the Wizard,
                                                            actually a carnival side show performer from the American midwest,
                                                            builds a hideous mask of paper-mache and sets it on fire, then uses
                                                            the burning apparition to scare Dorothy Gale into agreeing to attack
                                                            the Wicked Witch of the West.

                                                            Now attacking witches is a tricky business. There is a good reason
                                                            that the wizard himself, being just a carnival performer from the
                                                            midwest, does not want to do it. Witches, after all, have air
                                                            superiority. Dorothy Gale has had the good common sense to avoid
                                                            combat with witches. So the Wizard resorts to trickery to fool
                                                            Dorothy into thinking that she has no choice but to do what the
                                                            Wizard asks. The Wizard concocts a monster that appears when needed
                                                            to terrify Dorothy into attacking the Witch. In the process, Dorothy
                                                            and her companions are nearly killed. But for the sake of the
                                                            requisite happy ending (this is a children's story, after all) and
                                                            the eventual MGM musical, they survive, only to learn that the
                                                            Wizard's burning head was a fake, and nothing to be afraid of in the
                                                            first place.

                                                            America is living that story right now. A huckster from the midwest
                                                            has conned his way into being ruler of the land, and for his own
                                                            reasons came into office wanting to wage war on a variety of
                                                            targets, most of which had a great deal of oil sitting on top of
                                                            them. But of course the huckster does not wish to risk his own life
                                                            (or that of his family and friends). And the people of the land,
                                                            like Dorothy Gale, see no reason to go wandering off, in this case
                                                            east rather than west, to confront an enemy of unknown lethality in
                                                            a war based on dubious motives.

                                                            So, the huckster makes up a paper-mache monster and shows it to the
                                                            terrified audience amid a display of smoke and flame called 9-11.
                                                            The manufactured monster's name is "Osama bin Laden", trained and
                                                            funded by the CIA during the Afghanistan wars.

                                                            So Americans, scared by the paper-mache and fire monster, are scared
                                                            into marching off to war. Because this is NOT a children's book and
                                                            there is no planned MGM musical, many of those who marched off to
                                                            battle are not marching back home; roughly 1200 as of this writing.

                                                            Americans have taken a closer look at the huckster who sent their
                                                            loved ones off to die. They have looked past the smoke and mirrors
                                                            of the wizards deceptions and seen the truth. They have seen that
                                                            there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq for them to be
                                                            afraid of. Americans have seen that Iraq was not supporting Osama,
                                                            nor was Iraq connected to the smoke and fire display that terrified
                                                            Americans into supporting a war none of them really wanted.

                                                            Americans have peeked behind the curtain to see the huckster from
                                                            the midwest pulling his levers and pushing his buttons to animate
                                                            his mechanical monsters, to scare the people into going off and
                                                            fighting those targets the huckster dare not confront himself.

                                                            And here we are, with America ready to throw the huckster out, and
                                                            sure enough, with a press of a button and a throw of the lever, the
                                                            manufactured monster appears right on cue to scare the people into
                                                            doing what the huckster wants, which is to not fire his lying ass
                                                            over all the kids who died in a war based on lies and deceptions.

                                                            So, we come down to the real question here. Are you a child that can
                                                            be scared into doing what you are told without question? Or are you
                                                            an adult, ready to peek behind the curtain at the machinery with
                                                            which the huckster from the midwest, marveling and yet shamed at how
                                                            easy you were fooled before?

                                                            Will you be fooled and made a fool of yet again? Or are you ready to
                                                            live without being controlled by manufactured monsters?"
                                                          • holderlin66
                                                            Ivan wrote: To find statements regarding the egolessness we can also go back to our doctrinal scriptures where it s been said, many are invited, but few
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Nov 1, 2004
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                                                              Ivan wrote:

                                                              "To find statements regarding the "egolessness" we can also go back
                                                              to our doctrinal scriptures where it's been said, "many are invited,
                                                              but few are chosen".

                                                              Or remember the parrabel of the seeds fallen to infertile ground.
                                                              And yes, of course, all shall be redeemed, no worries. But that
                                                              doesn't mean egos will be created out of nothing all at once where
                                                              they haven't sprout forth. Redemption doesn't mean that when the
                                                              school finishes, those that are still in the first class shall be
                                                              given dissertations and titles; no it simply means the school is
                                                              over and all are free.

                                                              "The salt doll shall melt back into the sea" as the Vedantic
                                                              parrabel puts.

                                                              They can still uproot their false ego by doing constant self-enquiry
                                                              and asking "Who I Am". And they can do it even now and get Moksha
                                                              (liberation). That is redemption. They should not fear, as what they
                                                              are is anyway not what they pretend to be, so no one is at lost.

                                                              R.S.

                                                              http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19080806p01.html

                                                              "We shall best understand this if we consider the following: Man has
                                                              at the present time an ego, an astral body, an etheric body, and a
                                                              physical body. How does further development come to pass? Through
                                                              working continually upon himself.

                                                              "Today the ego of man is still in many respects powerless to affect
                                                              the other principles of his being, he is in many ways unable to
                                                              control his passions, but is therefore ruled by them, that is, by
                                                              his astral body. There is a great difference between human beings in
                                                              this respect. Compare a savage who eats his fellow men with a
                                                              European and then think of a high idealist such as Schiller or
                                                              Francis of Assisi. You see here an advancing development which
                                                              consists in man learning more and more to control his astral body by
                                                              his ego. A time will come when the ego will do this completely; it
                                                              will irradiate the astral body completely. Man will then have formed
                                                              a higher principle, this principle we call Manas, or Spirit-Self. It
                                                              is nothing but the astral body, which has been transformed by the
                                                              ego.

                                                              "When we observe a man of the present day clairvoyantly we see that
                                                              his astral body really consists of two parts, namely, the part that
                                                              is already under the control of the ego and the part he is not yet
                                                              able to control. This latter is still filled with lower forces and
                                                              impulses, and when the ego drives these out all kinds of powers are
                                                              added to the astral body.

                                                              "In order that the astral body should not be destroyed by the lower
                                                              forces it must always be permeated and suffused by higher beings who
                                                              control it in the same way that man will control it in the future
                                                              when he has attained the goal of his evolution. The beings whose
                                                              task it is to control that part of the astral body which is still
                                                              uncontrolled by man are one stage higher than he is, they are the
                                                              Angels, or Spirits of Twilight. In fact one such Spirit watches over
                                                              every human being, and this Spirit has power over the astral body;
                                                              it is therefore no childish idea, but profound wisdom, to speak of
                                                              guardian angels. These guardian angels have a great duty to perform.

                                                              "Let us consider the course of a human life in its entirety. We know
                                                              that it passes through many incarnations. At a given time — at a
                                                              certain point in earthly evolution — man began to live as a soul, as
                                                              an ego, in his first incarnation on earth. He then died, there was
                                                              an interval, then a new incarnation, and so it has gone on from
                                                              incarnation to incarnation; and these will only come to an end at a
                                                              far-off period of human evolution. Man will then have passed through
                                                              all his incarnations, and he will also have attained power to
                                                              control his astral body perfectly. This can not be done till he has
                                                              passed through all his incarnations, at least not in normal
                                                              evolution.

                                                              "Now, an Angel accompanies the inmost part of man's being and guides
                                                              him from incarnation to incarnation, so that he may truly fulfil his
                                                              mission on earth. It is, in fact, as if the human being had been
                                                              able, since the beginning of his life on earth, to look up to an
                                                              exalted Spirit who was his prototype, who could completely control
                                                              his astral body, and who said to him Thou must be like unto me when
                                                              in future thou passest out of this earthly evolution." It is the
                                                              task of Angels to guide the incarnations of men' and whether we say
                                                              that he looks up to his higher self, whom he must come to resemble
                                                              more and more, or that he looks up to his Angel as his great
                                                              pattern, it is exactly the same in a spiritual sense.

                                                              "As man works further upon himself he will transform the etheric
                                                              body into Buddhi, or Life Spirit; one day he will do this
                                                              consciously, even now he is working on it unconsciously. So even
                                                              higher Spiritual Beings have to work today in all human etheric
                                                              bodies; this is the task of the Fire Spirits.

                                                              "Now, human etheric bodies arc not individually so different as are
                                                              human astral bodies. Every man has his own particular virtue or
                                                              vice, but in things connected with the etheric body there is a
                                                              certain similarity this can be seen in the qualities peculiar to a
                                                              race or nation. Because of this we see that each individual human
                                                              being does not have an Archangel in connection with his etheric
                                                              body, but that whole nations and races are guided by higher or lower
                                                              Spirits of Fire. The peoples and races of the earth are indeed
                                                              guided as a whole by Archangels.

                                                              "Here our view expands to something which to many persons is
                                                              entirely abstract, but for those who are able to see into the
                                                              Spiritual world it is entirely concrete. If anyone today mentions a
                                                              national spirit, or a national-soul, this is considered an
                                                              abstraction. It is not so to the occult observer. To him the whole
                                                              nation is as if embedded in Spiritual substance and this Spiritual
                                                              substance is the body of a Fire-Spirit. From hoary antiquity until
                                                              now our evolution has been led and guided from people to people,
                                                              from race to race, by the Spirits of Fire, whose bodies are the
                                                              souls of nations, and whose mission it is to guide the course of
                                                              human evolution through the various races of the earth."

                                                              Bradford comments;

                                                              Human forms are interesting standard issue as Star forces walking
                                                              around on two legs, but with highly unique nuances or no nuances at
                                                              all. We compared France and Joan of Arc to Mao. But when we look at
                                                              individuals who tap the Archangel forces, Martin Luther King Jr.
                                                              took hold as did Gandhi and as human beings, there is a teaching
                                                              delivered to Christianize and uplift new forces into the education
                                                              of the total race, and folk, with emphasis on the new mission of the
                                                              Risen Etheric Christ Being.

                                                              Civil Rights was not on the agenda of the Chinese under Mao.
                                                              Undifferentiated etheic forces in the general race, would have and
                                                              have come in conflict with incarnated astral differences. These
                                                              individuals faced imprisionment, Nelson Mandela for instance,
                                                              torture, death, as Joan of Arc did, and all in the model of the
                                                              service of the higher developing faculties of the I AM. Germany
                                                              bought the leadership of Hitler for a time and beings gathered, from
                                                              darker retarded regions to prop up this human personality, Hitler.

                                                              Again we see the Peoples Republic of China and Mao doing the same
                                                              type of limb, etheric goose step, that Germany was doing, massive
                                                              mind F--king. This will force went up into the brain, so that being
                                                              different from the rest of the tidal etheric and physical body
                                                              politic and will was seen as criminal. America is moving in a
                                                              J.Edgar Hooverian, Patriot Act, Ashcroft twilight zone to nab the
                                                              patriotism, the mind numbed will of America in order to create a
                                                              schism that individual thinking I AM's and human community and
                                                              Steiner's understanding how thinking and idealism is all drawn from
                                                              the powerful world of thought and the Michael School, creates
                                                              individual who draw from the same spiritual world, now sits on a
                                                              knife edge of a vote.

                                                              The Atlantean aspect was immitation, yawning, was one of Steiner's
                                                              examples, as infectious yawning and working, as in The Peoples
                                                              Projects, limbs moving in ATlantean unity, or emotions pulling
                                                              together for some abstract communist patriotism, is no different
                                                              than abstract Nazi nationalism or abstract U.S. flag waving. The
                                                              difference in the west is that nuanced astral bodies were free to
                                                              make lots of choice, ridiculous choices between Paper and Plastic
                                                              and I think George Carlin gives a clear understanding of the kind of
                                                              astral, controlled choices we in the west are being dealt. Watered
                                                              down, beaten down Liberalism by Righ Wing talk show hosts, all
                                                              little tin Hitlers. What do you think the American term Ditto Head
                                                              means? It means the Peoples Republic of China and a retarded
                                                              spiritual Archangel fight against growing out of the ancient
                                                              Egyptian two dimensional beingness.

                                                              But massive team spirit, unity of etheric movement, bypassing
                                                              discerning and individualized I AM's were part of Mao's Little Red
                                                              Book. The Chinese Bible for behavior experimentation and
                                                              modification in mass Archangelic group numbing. But the idea
                                                              remains, why did this mass of human forms and etheric bodies
                                                              gravitate to behave in such an imposed, mirrored, Atlantean unity.
                                                              Well it is easier to go along with an overwhelming crowd than defy
                                                              it for the sake of defending the astral unique gifts we carry.
                                                              Integrating these unique capacities in the whole has been partly the
                                                              cause of Civil Rights and Geneva Convention advancements.

                                                              But taking into consideration Retarded ARchai and Archangel
                                                              activity, such as that Retarded aspect of an ancient Egyptian
                                                              ARchangel in the U.S., acting today, and retarded beings focused out
                                                              of Mao or Hitler, we understand that along with the developing I AM,
                                                              humanity is embedded in Beings and we ain't even close to mature or
                                                              wise enough to take up the symptomology studies of the various
                                                              beings or even the deconstruction of the psychological body and
                                                              shell that is the vehicle of the I AM. ONly Spiritual Science and a
                                                              few rare psychological models, that still separate the psyche of man
                                                              from nature or the cosmos as serving a model that serves a mirage of
                                                              what science thinks the human being is, these rare models still
                                                              betray man and exchange a mirage and a lie for how the human spirit
                                                              exists in this world.
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