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Rép. : Re: Rép. :The New Manu and Family/ Harvey

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  • danifyou@tv.videotron.ca
    I didn t know that Harvey... Thanks. What comes to mind Is Heaven and Hell The Marriage - How so much to Suffer has The Great Manes...... / Emerson, Lake and
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 7, 2004
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      I didn't know that Harvey...
      Thanks.

      What comes to mind
      Is Heaven and Hell
      The Marriage -
      How so much to Suffer has
      The Great Manes......

      /

      Emerson, Lake and Palmer;

      A Boomer Friend at work -
      'Lord of the Rings'
      And Progressive Music Lover
      Brought me their CD
      Saying: you have to listen
      To that Danny
      That's Super!

      Mark of Gladness
      And Appreciation
      In return from
      'David Gilmour's
      Meltdown Concert'
      I lended him a week before...


      Small Family after all...
      Danny


      ----Message original -----
      De : earlyfire@...

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      <DIV>Hi Danny,</DIV>
      <DIV>It's nice to observe that Emerson, Lake and Palmer also cherish the work of William Blake. That wonderful quote below is from Blake's epic poem "Jerusalem".<BR></DIV>
      <DIV>Happy Michaelmas</DIV>
      <DIV>Harv<BR><BR>-----Original Message----- <BR>From: danifyou@... <BR>Sent: Oct 7, 2004 2:37 PM <BR>To: AT <ANTHROPOSOPHY_TOMORROW@...><BR>Subject: Rép. : [anthroposophy_tomorrow] The New Manu and Family <BR><BR><ZZZHTML><ZZZBODY><TT><BR>"And did those feet in ancient time<BR>Walk upon England's mountain green?<BR>And was the Holy Lamb of God<BR>On England's pleasant pasture green?<BR><BR>And did the Countenance Divine<BR>Shine forth upon our clouded hills<BR>And was Jerusalem builded here<BR>Among these dark Satanic mills?<BR><BR>Bring me my bow of burning gold!<BR>Bring me my arrows of desire!<BR>Bring me my spear: O clouds unfold!<BR>Bring me my Chariot of Fire!<BR><BR>I will not cease from mental fight<BR>Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand<BR>Til we have built Jerusalem<BR>In England's green and pleasant land."<BR><BR>- Emerson, Lake and Palmer<BR>'Brain Salad Surgery'<BR>1973<BR><BR>Danny<BR><BR>holderlin66<holderlin66@...> <BR><BR>"back to the gods. So yes, my <BR>favorite film is ExCalibur but Fiona Mcleod and I consider myself an <BR>Arthurian Michael Soul."<BR><BR>Who else but an Arthurian Michael Soul<BR>To locate our Parsifalian Friend Forrest Gump -<BR>So much Will RUNNING through his Bones!<BR><BR>Bent out of Shape - have I heard 'Hephaestos'?<BR>Or is it 'Vulcan', 'Atmic' and such derivative words...<BR><BR>Yeah, that *WILL* thing and the 'Study of Man'<BR>And how it relates to a certain condition of Sleep...<BR><BR>A Wonder to me in the Raphael's <BR>Transfiguration Painting<BR>Is the fact <BR>Rather Naked that<BR>The Youth of Nain <BR>Has such a Great Body <BR>Bee Wax<BR>Like  <BR>In the Muscles<BR>A F(u/ea)ture...<BR>(A Foetus? :)<BR><BR>Full Moon was it - and the Olive Trees -<BR>Oil and Candlesticks the Lamp is on; <BR>And Progressive the Sun in Operation<BR>Proceed goes on: with the Brainsaladsurgery!<BR><BR>Moon Node thing for sure a Melt down;<BR>Lo - this hey: the Principle of Insertion!<BR><BR><BR>Danny<BR><BR><BR><BR>Yahoo! Groups Links<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Yahoo! Groups Links<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></TT><BR></DIV><ZZZ!-- -- banner|**| ZZZhtml egp |**|begin>
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    • holderlin66
      The most sickening, disgusting thing is that we stand there facing the Iraq people, a country we destroyed, betrayed, stole their economic foundations out from
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 7, 2004
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        The most sickening, disgusting thing is that we stand there facing
        the Iraq people, a country we destroyed, betrayed, stole their
        economic foundations out from under them, lied to them, killed over
        30,000, failed to supply rebuilding of infrastructure, while we
        retreated like Orcs behind the Green Zone without even an apology
        that we invaded them for their Oil and their oil only. An apology,
        reparations and withdrawal as occupiers. To do in Iraq as that which
        was done for Africans. Reparations of humanity. Let me list the
        reparations laws of Africa and insert Iraq people where Africans
        would normally appear.

        http://www.arm.arc.co.uk/about.html

        Aims and obectives

        To use all lawful means to obtain Reparations for the enslavement
        and occupation of the Iraqi people in Iraqi cities and in all Iraqi
        and Kurd provinces.

        To use all lawful means to secure the return of Iraqi rights to
        pursue their own religion and international government however suits
        them.

        To offer an apology from The coalition of the stupid for the
        invasion and occupation of the Iraqi people.

        To campaign for an acknowledgement of the positive aspects of Islam
        to World history and civilisation.

        To campaign for an accurate portrayal free of spin of the goodness
        and fairness of the Islamic people and thus restore dignity and self-
        respect of all the Iraqi people whom we have grieviously decimated
        in our lust for power.

        To educate and inform American Youth, in the U.S. and in the deluded
        coalition, about the greatness of Islamic cultures, languages and
        civilisations that have been mangled by deception and U.S. lies and
        ignorant fundamentalism. To correct the nightmare we have created
        and invite Islam and Palastine into the community of nations and the
        brotherhood of humanity.

        Finally to devote allocations of budget and educational support from
        all nations who have robbed, decimated and crushed Iraq with their
        avarice, and devote energies to making Iraq a model of peace and
        global cultural richness that representing all cultures. To do in
        Iraq what humanity has failed to do in Palastine and offer asylum to
        all Palastinians.

        By John N. Cooper
        Oct 5, 2004, 07:38

        http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_12372.shtml

        "Neither of the principal presidential candidates disavows the Iraq
        war for what it is:

        a mistake; an unjust, illegal act of agression against a nation with
        a third rate military impoverished by a decade of economic, military
        and political sanctions,

        rationalized a priori on false, misinterpreted or misrepresented
        data, 'intelligence' being far too sanguine a term to describe the
        purported basis,

        for projected goals - a docile, subordinate state, compliant with
        America's wishes and objectives - that now seem clearly unobtainable,

        with a post-hoc rationale, homeland security, now receding ever
        farther into the distance in consequence of this war's brutal,
        indiscriminately violent prosecution.

        Instead these candidates differ only in detail regarding how we must
        continue until we 'win'. Win what, for pity's sake?

        The contempt of the whole world?

        The enmity of the third world?

        The conversion of yet more of the world's oppressed, beleagured,
        impoverished peoples to active terrorism against our dominance? What
        price 'victory'?

        Instead our choices are between demonstrated, resolute, inflexible
        belligerence and vague promises to coalesce a wider consortium of
        suppression. Nowhere from the current political 'leadership' do we
        hear expressed the wisdom widely voiced by experienced field
        observers, from the US to Afghanistan and Iraq:

        The war is essentially lost;

        In one and one-half years, America has successively, conclusively
        demonstrated its utter inability to inspire or impose peace,
        stability or national cohesion on either of these two states;

        Our 'war on terrorism' is the ultimate oxymoron, for war, especially
        as we have pursued it, is the ultimate terrorism: as hate begets
        hate, so our organized violence against the populations of these two
        countries has begot only more terrorism;

        America's security is dependent NOT on fear, whether of our
        psychopathic, irrationally violent outbursts or our support of
        tyrannical regimes, but rather by the growth of nations reasonably
        satisfied with their popular governance regardless of its form,
        goverance which we so far have been unable effectively to produce or
        promote.

        In a recent, seminal lecture, "Globalisation, Empire and Terror',
        Prof. Mark Rupert, Syracuse University, argued that nothing short of
        re-education of the American electorate will suffice to dismantle
        its allegiance to this dangerously delusional national myth. But the
        principal architects and exemplars of America's conception of its
        place in the world community of nations are just those politicians
        and media that benefit from perpetuating the myth of America's right
        to, and responsibility to impose, its supremacy. Supreme power
        corrupts supremely; it is that corruption of the American potential
        for promoting peace and justice that fosters worldwide animosity and
        enmity towards us.

        Where is the leadership bold and courageous enough to educate the
        American electorate, clearly to voice their misgivings? Where are
        the voices of those clearsighted enough to see and tell the truth,
        to depict ourselves as others see us, to demand that we conduct
        ourselves not as superior beings but as human beings, fellow to the
        other inhabitants of this planet? Who recognize, acknowledge and
        articulate the truth that abuse of our political, economic and
        military power is but poor substitute for wisdom, compassion and
        understanding for all, self and others?

        The trouble seems to be that the American political process seems to
        have got caught up in self-replicating fantasies. Like children
        peeping out from under the covers, frightened of horrors imagined
        resident under the bed and in the closet, we demand from our
        politicians fairy-tales of our invincibility and divine
        righteousness. In order to retain their chances of (res-)election,
        those opportunistic politicians pander to our national neurotic
        anxieties, reenforcing the very behaviors that result in yet more
        anxieties. Rather than the truths about the consequences of our
        actions we need to hear to make rational decisions, we get flashing
        lights, smoke and mirrors from our 'leadership' and views of
        ourselves at utter variance with experience and perception of the
        rest of the world..."
      • holderlin66
        In Denial By Robert Thompson Oct 6, 2004, 12:28 ...confrontation with reality brought into play the great wonders which we know as Faith, Hope and Love.
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 7, 2004
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          In Denial
          By Robert Thompson
          Oct 6, 2004, 12:28

          "...confrontation with reality brought into play the great wonders
          which we know as Faith, Hope and Love. Faith brought Hope, and
          Hope made me even more fully aware than before of the power of
          Love. Love is a marvel, since it radiates outwards, and, in my
          case, it has its centre in my own family (my wife, our children and
          our grandchildren) and embraces all our friends, whether old or
          new. Reality obliges me to recognise its power, and to understand
          the need to do what I can to make Love spread around me, and thereby
          to combat hatred.

          These same politicians are also telling us that they are succeeding
          in Iraq and in what they call their "War on Terror". Both these
          claims are very obviously and blatantly false. The illegal
          invasion of Iraq was bound to be a disaster, and has given
          unprecedented strength to the extremists who are so ready to use
          terrorism as a means to seize power over others. As to the "War on
          Terror", there is no sign of its having yet started, and it has very
          cleverly been diverted by interested parties into a war against
          Islam and/or majoritarily Muslim countries. This has been
          completed by successfully confusing the general public in your
          country into believing not only that black is white but more
          importantly that hatred is love. As has so many times been said,
          if a lie is repeated often enough it will be believed, and the
          example here before us is that Saddam Hussein supported his arch-
          enemies such as Mr Oussama bin Laden. As is well known, the latter
          and his family were much closer to their fellow members of the
          Carlyle Group than they were to the Iraqi Ba'ath Party.

          A simple examination of the facts brings us to see the terrifying
          reality of the present situation in the world. It is so easy to
          claim to be "strong" or "tough", but it is not easy to be genuinely
          effective. False pride, known to the Greeks as hubris, can be very
          tempting, but it is almost certain to lead one astray. The U.S.A.
          may, at present, be the only super-power, but as with all human
          empires, this status is only temporary and the world, including the
          Bush administration, has to face reality. Other potential super-
          powers (whether economically or militarily) exist, and they include
          China, India, Russia and Indonesia. There was a time when the
          European Union seemed poised rapidly to achieve such power, but the
          self-serving treachery of certain politicians (such as Mr Bush's
          Scottish lackey), who prefer to be "large fish in small ponds", has
          prevented it from reaching its fullest economic potential.

          We are well aware that leaders of many corporate multinationals are
          doing all that they can to ensure that their power-base, currently
          the U.S.A., should both remain firmly under their control and, at
          the same time, rule the world. They are therefore desperately
          anxious to prevent the two things which they fear most. Firstly,
          they do not wish the citizens of the U.S.A. to have any genuine say
          in how their country is run, since this would bring these same
          leaders and their interests down to human proportions. Secondly,
          they fear the emergence of rival super-powers which could help to
          improve life for so many millions of their fellow human beings by
          offering an alternative to the system which brings these people,
          currently known collectively as "neo-conservatives", so many
          advantages. Competition from other such powers could help to break
          the stranglehold which these neo-conservatives have over so much of
          the world."
        • holderlin66
          Well brother Frank; That was a rich tale. Reminded me of when I bolted to Alaska after 19 years in Atlanta. Only I have to say, if you have to have a mid life
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 12, 2004
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            Well brother Frank;

            That was a rich tale. Reminded me of when I bolted to Alaska after
            19 years in Atlanta. Only I have to say, if you have to have a mid
            life crisis, that, that is the luckiest and sweetest way to handle
            it. May the gods continue to smile on you.

            http://www.southerncrossreview.org/36/downsized.htm
          • Frank Thomas Smith
            Thanks, Bradford. But Alaska!? I ve found that the seeking the sun is a better solution for such crisis. Frank
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 12, 2004
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              Thanks, Bradford. But Alaska!? I've found that the seeking the sun is a
              better solution for such crisis.
              Frank
              > Well brother Frank;
              >
              > That was a rich tale. Reminded me of when I bolted to Alaska after
              > 19 years in Atlanta. Only I have to say, if you have to have a mid
              > life crisis, that, that is the luckiest and sweetest way to handle
              > it. May the gods continue to smile on you.
              >
              > http://www.southerncrossreview.org/36/downsized.htm
              >
              >
            • holderlin66
              http://www.tellhim.no/? module=displaysection§ion_id=102&format=html The Honorable George W. Bush President of the United States Washington, DC Mr.
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 12, 2004
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                http://www.tellhim.no/?
                module=displaysection§ion_id=102&format=html

                The Honorable George W. Bush
                President of the United States
                Washington, DC

                Mr. President

                As friends of the United States, we respect your country's strength,
                creativity and generosity. At this point in history however, we are
                compelled to speak out. Four out of five Norwegians oppose the U.S.-
                led war on Iraq and our government has failed to clearly express the
                majority opinion of its people.

                Mr. President – we urge you to change your foreign policy. To pursue
                a flawed and failed policy is a sign of weakness. We want the United
                States to be strong and creative enough to apologize to the Iraqi
                people for an unjust war, and to the Allies for having misled them.
                We want the USA to be generous enough to compensate the innocent
                victims of violence, looting and trauma inflicted by torture. We
                firmly believe that the quest for peace in Iraq is best led by the
                United Nations and a democratically-elected Iraqi government.

                Mr. President – your country can once again be a leading example of
                democracy and freedom, inspiring a world where terrorism can no
                longer breed. Your present policy only fosters resistance, more than
                ever, everywhere.

                Mr. President – the choice is yours.

                Sincerely

                Concerned citizens and organizations of Norway
              • holderlin66
                How easy is it to discover how conscience awakens and we can see through the mire and mess of Hindrencers, Adversaries and Soul Entities that nest in soul
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 13, 2004
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                  How easy is it to discover how conscience awakens and we can see
                  through the mire and mess of Hindrencers, Adversaries and Soul
                  Entities that nest in soul region, the way Beings nest in the White
                  House? Soul World, Physical World, Spiritual World. Yes, human
                  beings sit in the White House; Soul Beings sit in the White House;
                  Spiritual Beings sit in the White House.

                  But in the human beings are Soul forces and Entities we refuse to
                  hold up to the light of consciousness. This is a whole realm, a
                  world of untracked reality that lives within us as we cross a real
                  Threshold that proves to us; Oh, my, reality is not just physical
                  faces and bodies but Soul Beings. As we cross the threshsold we get
                  a bit of a shock, and many of us have had this shock. Oh my, the
                  soul beings are more intense and real than the dubious human shells
                  that I physically see. Suddenly and slowly conscience develops the
                  eyes to see. But look how lame, slow and watered down is this
                  conscience. Here is a sample of the fire that awakens vision. Vision
                  that leads to the threshold.

                  http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/hornberger5.html

                  "President George W. Bush's handpicked investigator charged with
                  investigating whether there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq
                  has now rendered his final report: There were no weapons of mass
                  destruction in Iraq. Period. No stockpiles of biological and
                  chemical weapons. No nuclear weapons. No factories to produce them.
                  No air-conditioned, modernistic labs hidden under the sand. Nada. It
                  turns out that Saddam Hussein had disarmed many years before
                  President Bush had repeatedly said that the United States needed to
                  invade Iraq to "disarm Saddam." In the pre-war debate between Saddam
                  Hussein and George W. Bush over Iraq's weapons of mass destruction,
                  there is now no doubt as to who was telling the truth and who was
                  not.

                  That means that all the fear that was instilled in the American
                  people by Bush, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, and
                  Paul Wolfowitz was ill-founded. The horrible thoughts that pervaded
                  people's minds that Saddam Hussein's terrorists would break into
                  their homes and spray chemical and biological weapons in their faces
                  were groundless. Hundreds of yards of duct tape wasted. All the gas
                  masks people bought during those scary times unnecessary. The
                  horrible thoughts of Saddam's mushroom clouds rising above American
                  cities that kept people awake at night – all baseless.

                  As The Future of Freedom Foundation repeatedly pointed out before
                  the war, Saddam Hussein and the nation of Iraq never posed any
                  danger to the United States. None. After all, don't forget that
                  Saddam was once ranked among the close dictatorial allies of the
                  U.S. government. In fact, U.S. officials trusted Saddam Hussein so
                  much that they even authorized the delivery to him of the WMD about
                  which they later complained. (See: "Where Did Iraq Get Its Weapons
                  of Mass Destruction?" and "Reagan's WMD Connection to Saddam
                  Hussein.") Moreover, it is now clear that despite all the hullabaloo
                  about needing to "disarm" Saddam of the WMD that the United States
                  and other Western countries had delivered to him, Saddam had in fact
                  disarmed after the Persian Gulf War.

                  More important, as FFF repeatedly emphasized before the war, the
                  nation of Iraq never attacked the United States or even threatened
                  to attack the United States. That makes the U.S. attack on Iraq a
                  war of aggression, a war that was termed a war crime by the
                  Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal and which has long been banned by the
                  UN Charter, to which the United States is a signatory. It also makes
                  the continued occupation of Iraq a legal and moral travesty.

                  The responsibility for all this lies jointly with Bush and John
                  Kerry. Bush went to war without the constitutionally required
                  congressional declaration of war, and Kerry and his congressional
                  cohorts permitted him to do so by means of an unconstitutional and
                  cowardly delegation to the president of Congress's power to declare
                  war.

                  As it has become increasingly clear that the obsessive ruminations
                  of U.S. officials regarding Iraq's WMDs lacked reality, U.S.
                  officials have returned to "regime change" to justify their invasion
                  and war of aggression against Iraq. "Isn't the world better off
                  without Saddam Hussein?" they repeatedly challenge people who
                  challenge what they have done.

                  The correlative question, however, which they have never answered
                  is, "Is the world better off without the tens of thousands of
                  innocent people you have killed in this invasion and war of
                  aggression and with the tens of thousands of innocent people who are
                  now maimed or impoverished as a consequence?" Didn't they have a
                  right to live? Didn't they have a right to seek happiness in their
                  own way, albeit under tyranny, without losing their lives, eyesight,
                  arms, legs, or other body parts? The uncomfortable truth that we can
                  only hope will begin to seep into the conscience of every single
                  American is that an estimated 10,000–30,000 innocent people,
                  including both American and Iraqi soldiers and civilians, are now
                  dead – 3 to 10 times the number of innocent people killed at the
                  World Trade Center. (Note: The Pentagon doesn't keep count of Iraqi
                  dead and maimed because they are foreigners, not Americans.)

                  While U.S. officials people blithely cast off the Iraqi dead and
                  wounded as "casualties of war" and "collateral damage," every single
                  one of these tens of thousands of dead and maimed people were as
                  innocent as the victims in the World Trade Center, given that none
                  of them had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks on the American
                  people. No matter how tragic were the deaths, injuries, and
                  destruction on 9/11, those attacks cannot morally justify the death,
                  injuries, and destruction wreaked by the Pentagon and the CIA on
                  tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi people.

                  When there is terrorist retaliation on Americans for the deaths and
                  maiming of these innocent people, U.S. officials, including those in
                  the Pentagon, will respond the same way they responded after
                  9/11: "They have attacked us because they hate our `freedom.'" What
                  they will actually be referring to is the "freedom" of the U.S.
                  government to kill innocent people abroad, just as they did with the
                  brutal sanctions regime that contributed to the deaths of hundreds
                  of thousands of Iraqi children under the rationale of "regime
                  change" and just as they did with the invasion and war of aggression
                  against Iraq that is now being justified under that same morally
                  bankrupt rationale of "regime change." After all, let's not forget
                  the brutally callous statement by former U.S. Ambassador to the UN
                  Madeleine Albright, who in response to a question from "60 Minutes"
                  as to whether the deaths of half-a-million Iraqi children had been
                  worth the attempt to oust Saddam from power, said: "I think that is
                  a very hard choice, but the price, we think, the price is worth it."
                  In other words, in the minds of U.S. officials "regime change" was
                  worth the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis during
                  the 1990s and it was worth the lives of tens of thousands more in
                  2003.

                  Just think, after the presidential election U.S. officials will
                  be "free" to invade other countries where people are suffering under
                  dictatorships for the purpose of "regime change" so that they can
                  challenge people with, "Isn't the world better off without those
                  dictators?" You know, places like Pakistan, Vietnam, North Korea,
                  China, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Syria, and Burma. At an
                  average of 20,000 dead per country, that would mean only 200,000
                  more innocent people killed for purposes of "regime change." Would
                  the world be better off without them? Who cares? Wouldn't the world
                  would be better off without their dictators? And after all, let's
                  not forget that the dead and maimed will only be foreigners and will
                  just be considered "casualties of war" or "collateral damage."
                  Moreover, since the Pentagon doesn't count foreigners it kills and
                  maims anyway, we won't really have to concern ourselves with
                  accurate numbers."

                  http://www.arm.arc.co.uk/about.html

                  Aims and obectives

                  To use all lawful means to obtain Reparations for the enslavement
                  and occupation of the Iraqi people in Iraqi cities and in all Iraqi
                  and Kurd provinces.

                  To use all lawful means to secure the return of Iraqi rights to
                  pursue their own religion and international government however suits
                  them.

                  To offer an apology from The coalition of the stupid for the
                  invasion and occupation of the Iraqi people.

                  To campaign for an acknowledgement of the positive aspects of Islam
                  to World history and civilisation.

                  To campaign for an accurate portrayal free of spin of the goodness
                  and fairness of the Islamic people and thus restore dignity and self-
                  respect of all the Iraqi people whom we have grieviously decimated
                  in our lust for power.

                  To educate and inform American Youth, in the U.S. and in the deluded
                  coalition, about the greatness of Islamic cultures, languages and
                  civilisations that have been mangled by deception and U.S. lies and
                  ignorant fundamentalism. To correct the nightmare we have created
                  and invite Islam and Palastine into the community of nations and the
                  brotherhood of humanity.

                  Finally to devote allocations of budget and educational support from
                  all nations who have robbed, decimated and crushed Iraq with their
                  avarice, and devote energies to making Iraq a model of peace and
                  global cultural richness that representing all cultures. To do in
                  Iraq what humanity has failed to do in Palastine and offer asylum to
                  all Palastinians."
                • holderlin66
                  The astral world of dreams, and America s Sorathian guilt for participating in the murder of thousands of innocent Iraqi people, awakens conscience and vision
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 13, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    The astral world of dreams, and America's Sorathian guilt for
                    participating in the murder of thousands of innocent Iraqi people,
                    awakens conscience and vision in the astral world. Dreams are part
                    of the astral body that allows us to dip our toes of soul over the
                    theshold every night when we fall asleep, or are unable to fall
                    asleep. To some crossing this intimate threhsold might first appear
                    as disturbing dreams, but these dreams are part of that other world,
                    that we deny, the real soul world. To examine the awakening of a
                    guilty conscience requires a different relation to vision. One film
                    that takes one over the threshold was a film called "Dreamscape."

                    "...there are two kinds of dreams the human race has while they are
                    fast asleep: nightmares, the standard visions of being pursued by
                    something sinister and not being able to get help, and just plain
                    weird dreams, those where, upon reflection, we wonder where in the
                    hell we thought of that. The characters in the '80s sci-fi thriller
                    Dreamscape are plunged into such a scenario when, in the race to
                    save the lives and sanity of troubled patients, are forced to enter
                    a world where anything can happen: the subconscious."

                    Both "Dreamscape" and "The Cell" as film studies, have brought the
                    chaotic and free ranging soul images, called the Astral world into
                    study. It is seriously uncomfortable to consider the sub surface
                    Beings that exist in the real Soul World. Our surface consciousness
                    has to learn to stabalize and track the influence of various beings.
                    But what is worse is not considering that we live in this Soul world
                    and that we are sucked in and absorbed by these beings, just because
                    we refuse to study their influence and track their influence in the
                    surface world of our thinking. Gaining insights into the
                    symptomology of the actions of these beings, allows us to begin to
                    feel and observe their actions in our own soul life.

                    http://www.dvdreview.com/fullreviews/dreamscape.shtml

                    Bradford wrote:

                    "...in...human beings are Soul forces and Entities we refuse to
                    hold up to the light of consciousness. This is a whole realm, a
                    world of untracked reality that lives within us as we cross a real
                    Threshold that proves to us; Oh, my, reality is not just physical
                    faces and bodies but Soul Beings. As we cross the threshsold we get
                    a bit of a shock, and many of us have had this shock."

                    http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/patterson-norman6.html

                    "Dreams are a strange and wonderful thing. Through them we are able
                    to experience things we either can't or won't in real life. I've had
                    euphoric dreams like flying or breathing under water. I've had
                    terrifying dreams of unimaginable suffering. One time I even dreamed
                    I was present at the fall of man told about in Genesis 3.

                    Bibles translate God as walking in the "cool of the morning" (KJV)
                    or the "breezy part of the day" (JPS). The Hebrew word for "breeze"
                    is "ruwach." While a cool breeze could be one way of translating
                    this word, it can be rendered, blast of wind even suggesting anger.
                    The "calling" of God in Genesis 3:9 can suggest, "to call, cry,
                    utter a loud sound." Even the "voice" of God can have a much
                    stronger meaning. The Hebrew word "qowl" can also have the
                    connotation of thundering.

                    I've often been confused by the common translations. It seems as if
                    God is walking on a fine cool morning pleasantly looking for and
                    calling out for a misplaced Adam. In my dream I experienced a much
                    different scenario. The Spirit of God was crying out with a
                    thunderous voice for the sinful and disobedient Adam quaking in fear
                    over the consequences of his disobedience. No wonder Adam hid
                    himself. Needless to say, I was shaken when I awoke. Of course it
                    was only a dream but I had a small glimpse into something I normally
                    would not experience even in a small way without a dream.

                    The reason I'm talking about dreams is because I just woke up from
                    one where I was walking the streets of Bagdad. I've never been
                    there. I've seen pictures, even movie clips but I've not experienced
                    it. As I walked the streets I saw bombed out sections and people
                    suffering. I smelled the harsh smell of smoke; the sure sign of
                    fiery destruction. I tried in vain to ask some Iraqi natives to
                    forgive us for what we've done to them. There was one part of the
                    dream where Americans were passing by me. I called out to them
                    saying, "it is our tax money that did this. We all are guilty of
                    this sin."

                    National guilt is not a popular idea. Those of us on this side of
                    the political track like to think we do not share in the sins of our
                    nation. I only wish this were true. I find it interesting how Daniel
                    and Nehemiah confessed the sins of their nation saying "we"
                    and "us." The confession of the Levites in the book of Nehemiah is
                    particularly poignant:

                    In all that has happened to us, you have been just; you have acted
                    faithfully, while we did wrong. Our kings, our leaders, our priests
                    and our fathers did not follow your law; they did not pay attention
                    to your commands or the warnings you gave them. Even while they were
                    in their kingdom, enjoying your great goodness to them in the
                    spacious and fertile land you gave them, they did not serve you or
                    turn from their evil ways. "But see, we are slaves today, slaves in
                    the land you gave our forefathers so they could eat its fruit and
                    the other good things it produces. Because of our sins, its abundant
                    harvest goes to the kings you have placed over us. They rule over
                    our bodies and our cattle as they please. We are in great distress.
                    Nehemiah 9:33–37 NIV

                    Have you noticed the latest symbolic support of our government? You
                    see it in a couple of different renditions. Pasted on the back of
                    people's vehicles are ribbons. The ribbons are either yellow calling
                    for the unilateral support of our invading troops in Iraq,
                    Afghanistan and bases virtually every major country in the world, or
                    they are a simple red, white and blue ribbon saying "God Bless
                    America." There is even a combo ribbon with yellow on one side and
                    the US color triad on the other. Symbolic ribbons have been around
                    for a long time but this particular edition is relatively recent.

                    Ribbons are an interesting symbol. When I think of ribbons I think
                    of pretty bows tied into a sweet little girl's hair. Ribbon is
                    delicate. It is used for decoration on gifts. I find it an
                    interesting choice many groups use to represent their cause. Is it
                    any wonder it is the material of choice of the latest statist-
                    rallying cry?

                    Movies are similar to dreams. While there are obvious differences we
                    can have a measure of experiencing new things while watching movies
                    much the same way we do in dreams. One of the most disturbing movies
                    I've watched in the past year was Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11.
                    While I do not agree entirely with Moore's political agenda, I
                    appreciate the service he did for us in documenting the pain and
                    suffering of the people of Iraq.

                    I don't usually weep at movies but it would take a hardened callous
                    soul not to be moved by the scene showing the suffering of the Iraqi
                    people. I didn't need the subtitles to understand what the
                    grandmotherly old woman was saying as she stood outside the rubble
                    of what used to be her house and possibly her husband. I did not
                    need to understand the language to understand the pain and suffering
                    of the children, the mothers, the fathers, the people, shown in full
                    panoramic view for all of us to see. There isn't enough ribbon to
                    cover our eyes to the reality of human suffering and corporate guilt.

                    Why do we think God is going to bless America, just because we paste
                    it on a ribbon? "God Bless America!" is an interesting epitaph. Is
                    this a request? "Please, God, bless America?" Maybe it is a
                    command, "God, You better bless America or else." Still, it may be a
                    description of what people think God is doing, "Thank You, God for
                    blessing America." What exactly does it mean?

                    I don't think the latest ribbon ploy is going to help this nation be
                    blessed of God. We have too much blood on our hands. If God didn't
                    bless ancient sinning Israel, called in the Bible God's "first born
                    son," why do we think He is going to bless America? We bear the sin
                    of shedding innocent blood through the sin of abortion. Our culture
                    is hedonistic and spoiled. I will spare you the nauseating details
                    of rank and filth and disgust our nation pumps into our homes daily.
                    Is there any significant moral difference between those who call
                    themselves "Christian" and those who do not? The typical evangelical
                    Christian has supported the policies of the Federal government
                    though the messianic George W. Bush. Judgment, as the good Book
                    says, begins in the house of God.

                    I would like to suggest a different material to use instead of
                    ribbon. How about sackcloth? It is a sharp contrast to the delicate
                    ribbon. Sackcloth is a course cloth made of goat or camel hair. I
                    suspect it is itchy, scratchy and very uncomfortable. It was worn in
                    Biblical times as a sign of repentance and mourning over national
                    sin. Why not print "God Forgive America" on sackcloth so the message
                    is not lost on a nation devoid of Biblical symbolism?

                    The time for ribbons is over. We've gone too far. God cannot and
                    will not bless this nation and no amount of "God Bless America"
                    ribbons can make Him. The only answer is national confession and
                    repentance. May our prayer be, "God Forgive America!"
                  • john
                    ... From: holderlin66 To: Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 12:30 AM Subject:
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 31, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "holderlin66" <holderlin66@...>
                      To: <anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 12:30 AM
                      Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Reparations, withdrawal and Apology




                      The astral world of dreams, and America's Sorathian guilt for
                      participating in the murder of thousands of innocent Iraqi people,
                      awakens conscience and vision in the astral world. Dreams are part
                      of the astral body that allows us to dip our toes of soul over the
                      theshold every night when we fall asleep, or are unable to fall
                      asleep. To some crossing this intimate threhsold might first appear
                      as disturbing dreams, but these dreams are part of that other world,
                      that we deny, the real soul world. To examine the awakening of a
                      guilty conscience requires a different relation to vision. One film
                      that takes one over the threshold was a film called "Dreamscape."

                      "...there are two kinds of dreams the human race has while they are
                      fast asleep: nightmares, the standard visions of being pursued by
                      something sinister and not being able to get help, and just plain
                      weird dreams, those where, upon reflection, we wonder where in the
                      hell we thought of that. The characters in the '80s sci-fi thriller
                      Dreamscape are plunged into such a scenario when, in the race to
                      save the lives and sanity of troubled patients, are forced to enter
                      a world where anything can happen: the subconscious."

                      Both "Dreamscape" and "The Cell" as film studies, have brought the
                      chaotic and free ranging soul images, called the Astral world into
                      study. It is seriously uncomfortable to consider the sub surface
                      Beings that exist in the real Soul World. Our surface consciousness
                      has to learn to stabalize and track the influence of various beings.
                      But what is worse is not considering that we live in this Soul world
                      and that we are sucked in and absorbed by these beings, just because
                      we refuse to study their influence and track their influence in the
                      surface world of our thinking. Gaining insights into the
                      symptomology of the actions of these beings, allows us to begin to
                      feel and observe their actions in our own soul life.

                      http://www.dvdreview.com/fullreviews/dreamscape.shtml

                      Bradford wrote:

                      "...in...human beings are Soul forces and Entities we refuse to
                      hold up to the light of consciousness. This is a whole realm, a
                      world of untracked reality that lives within us as we cross a real
                      Threshold that proves to us; Oh, my, reality is not just physical
                      faces and bodies but Soul Beings. As we cross the threshsold we get
                      a bit of a shock, and many of us have had this shock."

                      http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/patterson-norman6.html

                      "Dreams are a strange and wonderful thing. Through them we are able
                      to experience things we either can't or won't in real life. I've had
                      euphoric dreams like flying or breathing under water. I've had
                      terrifying dreams of unimaginable suffering. One time I even dreamed
                      I was present at the fall of man told about in Genesis 3.

                      Bibles translate God as walking in the "cool of the morning" (KJV)
                      or the "breezy part of the day" (JPS). The Hebrew word for "breeze"
                      is "ruwach." While a cool breeze could be one way of translating
                      this word, it can be rendered, blast of wind even suggesting anger.
                      The "calling" of God in Genesis 3:9 can suggest, "to call, cry,
                      utter a loud sound." Even the "voice" of God can have a much
                      stronger meaning. The Hebrew word "qowl" can also have the
                      connotation of thundering.

                      I've often been confused by the common translations. It seems as if
                      God is walking on a fine cool morning pleasantly looking for and
                      calling out for a misplaced Adam. In my dream I experienced a much
                      different scenario. The Spirit of God was crying out with a
                      thunderous voice for the sinful and disobedient Adam quaking in fear
                      over the consequences of his disobedience. No wonder Adam hid
                      himself. Needless to say, I was shaken when I awoke. Of course it
                      was only a dream but I had a small glimpse into something I normally
                      would not experience even in a small way without a dream.

                      The reason I'm talking about dreams is because I just woke up from
                      one where I was walking the streets of Bagdad. I've never been
                      there. I've seen pictures, even movie clips but I've not experienced
                      it. As I walked the streets I saw bombed out sections and people
                      suffering. I smelled the harsh smell of smoke; the sure sign of
                      fiery destruction. I tried in vain to ask some Iraqi natives to
                      forgive us for what we've done to them. There was one part of the
                      dream where Americans were passing by me. I called out to them
                      saying, "it is our tax money that did this. We all are guilty of
                      this sin."

                      National guilt is not a popular idea. Those of us on this side of
                      the political track like to think we do not share in the sins of our
                      nation. I only wish this were true. I find it interesting how Daniel
                      and Nehemiah confessed the sins of their nation saying "we"
                      and "us." The confession of the Levites in the book of Nehemiah is
                      particularly poignant:

                      In all that has happened to us, you have been just; you have acted
                      faithfully, while we did wrong. Our kings, our leaders, our priests
                      and our fathers did not follow your law; they did not pay attention
                      to your commands or the warnings you gave them. Even while they were
                      in their kingdom, enjoying your great goodness to them in the
                      spacious and fertile land you gave them, they did not serve you or
                      turn from their evil ways. "But see, we are slaves today, slaves in
                      the land you gave our forefathers so they could eat its fruit and
                      the other good things it produces. Because of our sins, its abundant
                      harvest goes to the kings you have placed over us. They rule over
                      our bodies and our cattle as they please. We are in great distress.
                      Nehemiah 9:33-37 NIV

                      Have you noticed the latest symbolic support of our government? You
                      see it in a couple of different renditions. Pasted on the back of
                      people's vehicles are ribbons. The ribbons are either yellow calling
                      for the unilateral support of our invading troops in Iraq,
                      Afghanistan and bases virtually every major country in the world, or
                      they are a simple red, white and blue ribbon saying "God Bless
                      America." There is even a combo ribbon with yellow on one side and
                      the US color triad on the other. Symbolic ribbons have been around
                      for a long time but this particular edition is relatively recent.

                      Ribbons are an interesting symbol. When I think of ribbons I think
                      of pretty bows tied into a sweet little girl's hair. Ribbon is
                      delicate. It is used for decoration on gifts. I find it an
                      interesting choice many groups use to represent their cause. Is it
                      any wonder it is the material of choice of the latest statist-
                      rallying cry?

                      Movies are similar to dreams. While there are obvious differences we
                      can have a measure of experiencing new things while watching movies
                      much the same way we do in dreams. One of the most disturbing movies
                      I've watched in the past year was Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11.
                      While I do not agree entirely with Moore's political agenda, I
                      appreciate the service he did for us in documenting the pain and
                      suffering of the people of Iraq.

                      I don't usually weep at movies but it would take a hardened callous
                      soul not to be moved by the scene showing the suffering of the Iraqi
                      people. I didn't need the subtitles to understand what the
                      grandmotherly old woman was saying as she stood outside the rubble
                      of what used to be her house and possibly her husband. I did not
                      need to understand the language to understand the pain and suffering
                      of the children, the mothers, the fathers, the people, shown in full
                      panoramic view for all of us to see. There isn't enough ribbon to
                      cover our eyes to the reality of human suffering and corporate guilt.

                      Why do we think God is going to bless America, just because we paste
                      it on a ribbon? "God Bless America!" is an interesting epitaph. Is
                      this a request? "Please, God, bless America?" Maybe it is a
                      command, "God, You better bless America or else." Still, it may be a
                      description of what people think God is doing, "Thank You, God for
                      blessing America." What exactly does it mean?

                      I don't think the latest ribbon ploy is going to help this nation be
                      blessed of God. We have too much blood on our hands. If God didn't
                      bless ancient sinning Israel, called in the Bible God's "first born
                      son," why do we think He is going to bless America? We bear the sin
                      of shedding innocent blood through the sin of abortion. Our culture
                      is hedonistic and spoiled. I will spare you the nauseating details
                      of rank and filth and disgust our nation pumps into our homes daily.
                      Is there any significant moral difference between those who call
                      themselves "Christian" and those who do not? The typical evangelical
                      Christian has supported the policies of the Federal government
                      though the messianic George W. Bush. Judgment, as the good Book
                      says, begins in the house of God.

                      I would like to suggest a different material to use instead of
                      ribbon. How about sackcloth? It is a sharp contrast to the delicate
                      ribbon. Sackcloth is a course cloth made of goat or camel hair. I
                      suspect it is itchy, scratchy and very uncomfortable. It was worn in
                      Biblical times as a sign of repentance and mourning over national
                      sin. Why not print "God Forgive America" on sackcloth so the message
                      is not lost on a nation devoid of Biblical symbolism?

                      The time for ribbons is over. We've gone too far. God cannot and
                      will not bless this nation and no amount of "God Bless America"
                      ribbons can make Him. The only answer is national confession and
                      repentance. May our prayer be, "God Forgive America!"








                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Ivan Gottel
                      Dear John, I would say, the problem of our conscience comes from democracy being not more than bolshevism (rule of the majority) supported by economy (read:
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 31, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear John,
                         
                        I would say, the problem of our conscience comes from "democracy" being not more than bolshevism (rule of the majority) supported by economy (read: Mafia).
                        When the sole decision maker of a nation is the number of votes pro and contra - then the gores decide with their propaganda by brainwashing the masses.
                         
                        I don't claim any authority, but if I were a god, I would surely forgive you, John (sorry for being so proud as I am, to judge at all); I mean objectivelly looking at things and not out of friendship, I do not know you! -
                        - then wait a sec, isn't the Law of Karma replaced by the Mercy of Love by the Lord of Karma Himself, 2000 years ago?
                        If all your sin is paying the tax and formally belonging to a group - while as an individual you are in the cool breeze of sublime skies - my question is, how free or unfree you are from any guilt of the group?
                        It is touching how exactly the good ones suffer within and repent for the sins of their neighbours, who go without thinking and kill by order without having the least conscience problems (conscience being a differentia specifica of Humans, to get back to my "fav. topic").
                         
                        Sorry for being so prosaic, but regarding taxation I can suggest off shore investments, running off shore companies and off shore banking to all good US citizens. Check in search engines. This is not a joke.
                        Think of solutions how to wash yourself off the dirt as long as yo feel so.
                         
                        But there are so many countries... not many nations have not lead an aggressive unjust invading exploiting war!
                        Should we run homeless and pure...?
                        I try to.
                         
                        Ivan
                        (an ex-patriate)


                        john <xanadu@...> wrote:

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "holderlin66" <holderlin66@...>
                        To: <anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 12:30 AM
                        Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Reparations, withdrawal and Apology




                        The astral world of dreams, and America's Sorathian guilt for
                        participating in the murder of thousands of innocent Iraqi people,
                        awakens conscience and vision in the astral world. Dreams are part
                        of the astral body that allows us to dip our toes of soul over the
                        theshold every night when we fall asleep, or are unable to fall
                        asleep. To some crossing this intimate threhsold might first appear
                        as disturbing dreams, but these dreams are part of that other world,
                        that we deny, the real soul world. To examine the awakening of a
                        guilty conscience requires a different relation to vision. One film
                        that takes one over the threshold was a film called "Dreamscape."

                        "...there are two kinds of dreams the human race has while they are
                        fast asleep: nightmares, the standard visions of being pursued by
                        something sinister and not being able to get help, and just plain
                        weird dreams, those where, upon reflection, we wonder where in the
                        hell we thought of that. The characters in the '80s sci-fi thriller
                        Dreamscape are plunged into such a scenario when, in the race to
                        save the lives and sanity of troubled patients, are forced to enter
                        a world where anything can happen: the subconscious."

                        Both "Dreamscape" and "The Cell" as film studies, have brought the
                        chaotic and free ranging soul images, called the Astral world into
                        study. It is seriously uncomfortable to consider the sub surface
                        Beings that exist in the real Soul World. Our surface consciousness
                        has to learn to stabalize and track the influence of various beings.
                        But what is worse is not considering that we live in this Soul world
                        and that we are sucked in and absorbed by these beings, just because
                        we refuse to study their influence and track their influence in the
                        surface world of our thinking. Gaining insights into the
                        symptomology of the actions of these beings, allows us to begin to
                        feel and observe their actions in our own soul life.

                        http://www.dvdreview.com/fullreviews/dreamscape.shtml

                        Bradford wrote:

                        "...in...human beings are Soul forces and Entities we refuse to
                        hold up to the light of consciousness. This is a whole realm, a
                        world of untracked reality that lives within us as we cross a real
                        Threshold that proves to us; Oh, my, reality is not just physical
                        faces and bodies but Soul Beings. As we cross the threshsold we get
                        a bit of a shock, and many of us have had this shock."

                        http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/patterson-norman6.html

                        "Dreams are a strange and wonderful thing. Through them we are able
                        to experience things we either can't or won't in real life. I've had
                        euphoric dreams like flying or breathing under water. I've had
                        terrifying dreams of unimaginable suffering. One time I even dreamed
                        I was present at the fall of man told about in Genesis 3.

                        Bibles translate God as walking in the "cool of the morning" (KJV)
                        or the "breezy part of the day" (JPS). The Hebrew word for "breeze"
                        is "ruwach." While a cool breeze could be one way of translating
                        this word, it can be rendered, blast of wind even suggesting anger.
                        The "calling" of God in Genesis 3:9 can suggest, "to call, cry,
                        utter a loud sound." Even the "voice" of God can have a much
                        stronger meaning. The Hebrew word "qowl" can also have the
                        connotation of thundering.

                        I've often been confused by the common translations. It seems as if
                        God is walking on a fine cool morning pleasantly looking for and
                        calling out for a misplaced Adam. In my dream I experienced a much
                        different scenario. The Spirit of God was crying out with a
                        thunderous voice for the sinful and disobedient Adam quaking in fear
                        over the consequences of his disobedience. No wonder Adam hid
                        himself. Needless to say, I was shaken when I awoke. Of course it
                        was only a dream but I had a small glimpse into something I normally
                        would not experience even in a small way without a dream.

                        The reason I'm talking about dreams is because I just woke up from
                        one where I was walking the streets of Bagdad. I've never been
                        there. I've seen pictures, even movie clips but I've not experienced
                        it. As I walked the streets I saw bombed out sections and people
                        suffering. I smelled the harsh smell of smoke; the sure sign of
                        fiery destruction. I tried in vain to ask some Iraqi natives to
                        forgive us for what we've done to them. There was one part of the
                        dream where Americans were passing by me. I called out to them
                        saying, "it is our tax money that did this. We all are guilty of
                        this sin."

                        National guilt is not a popular idea. Those of us on this side of
                        the political track like to think we do not share in the sins of our
                        nation. I only wish this were true. I find it interesting how Daniel
                        and Nehemiah confessed the sins of their nation saying "we"
                        and "us." The confession of the Levites in the book of Nehemiah is
                        particularly poignant:

                        In all that has happened to us, you have been just; you have acted
                        faithfully, while we did wrong. Our kings, our leaders, our priests
                        and our fathers did not follow your law; they did not pay attention
                        to your commands or the warnings you gave them. Even while they were
                        in their kingdom, enjoying your great goodness to them in the
                        spacious and fertile land you gave them, they did not serve you or
                        turn from their evil ways. "But see, we are slaves today, slaves in
                        the land you gave our forefathers so they could eat its fruit and
                        the other good things it produces. Because of our sins, its abundant
                        harvest goes to the kings you have placed over us. They rule over
                        our bodies and our cattle as they please. We are in great distress.
                        Nehemiah 9:33-37 NIV

                        Have you noticed the latest symbolic support of our government? You
                        see it in a couple of different renditions. Pasted on the back of
                        people's vehicles are ribbons. The ribbons are either yellow calling
                        for the unilateral support of our invading troops in Iraq,
                        Afghanistan and bases virtually every major country in the world, or
                        they are a simple red, white and blue ribbon saying "God Bless
                        America." There is even a combo ribbon with yellow on one side and
                        the US color triad on the other. Symbolic ribbons have been around
                        for a long time but this particular edition is relatively recent.

                        Ribbons are an interesting symbol. When I think of ribbons I think
                        of pretty bows tied into a sweet little girl's hair. Ribbon is
                        delicate. It is used for decoration on gifts. I find it an
                        interesting choice many groups use to represent their cause. Is it
                        any wonder it is the material of choice of the latest statist-
                        rallying cry?

                        Movies are similar to dreams. While there are obvious differences we
                        can have a measure of experiencing new things while watching movies
                        much the same way we do in dreams. One of the most disturbing movies
                        I've watched in the past year was Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11.
                        While I do not agree entirely with Moore's political agenda, I
                        appreciate the service he did for us in documenting the pain and
                        suffering of the people of Iraq.

                        I don't usually weep at movies but it would take a hardened callous
                        soul not to be moved by the scene showing the suffering of the Iraqi
                        people. I didn't need the subtitles to understand what the
                        grandmotherly old woman was saying as she stood outside the rubble
                        of what used to be her house and possibly her husband. I did not
                        need to understand the language to understand the pain and suffering
                        of the children, the mothers, the fathers, the people, shown in full
                        panoramic view for all of us to see. There isn't enough ribbon to
                        cover our eyes to the reality of human suffering and corporate guilt.

                        Why do we think God is going to bless America, just because we paste
                        it on a ribbon? "God Bless America!" is an interesting epitaph. Is
                        this a request? "Please, God, bless America?" Maybe it is a
                        command, "God, You better bless America or else." Still, it may be a
                        description of what people think God is doing, "Thank You, God for
                        blessing America." What exactly does it mean?

                        I don't think the latest ribbon ploy is going to help this nation be
                        blessed of God. We have too much blood on our hands. If God didn't
                        bless ancient sinning Israel, called in the Bible God's "first born
                        son," why do we think He is going to bless America? We bear the sin
                        of shedding innocent blood through the sin of abortion. Our culture
                        is hedonistic and spoiled. I will spare you the nauseating details
                        of rank and filth and disgust our nation pumps into our homes daily.
                        Is there any significant moral difference between those who call
                        themselves "Christian" and those who do not? The typical evangelical
                        Christian has supported the policies of the Federal government
                        though the messianic George W. Bush. Judgment, as the good Book
                        says, begins in the house of God.

                        I would like to suggest a different material to use instead of
                        ribbon. How about sackcloth? It is a sharp contrast to the delicate
                        ribbon. Sackcloth is a course cloth made of goat or camel hair. I
                        suspect it is itchy, scratchy and very uncomfortable. It was worn in
                        Biblical times as a sign of repentance and mourning over national
                        sin. Why not print "God Forgive America" on sackcloth so the message
                        is not lost on a nation devoid of Biblical symbolism?

                        The time for ribbons is over. We've gone too far. God cannot and
                        will not bless this nation and no amount of "God Bless America"
                        ribbons can make Him. The only answer is national confession and
                        repentance. May our prayer be, "God Forgive America!"








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                      • holderlin66
                        http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/11/con04476.html They wouldn t have died if we hadn t invaded. We caused all this chaos. It is blood on our hands.
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 1, 2004
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                          http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/11/con04476.html

                          "They wouldn't have died if we hadn't invaded. We caused all this
                          chaos. It is blood on our hands. Every one of us in the good ole USA.

                          You know what? ONE DEATH is not acceptable, especially if it is your
                          son, daughter, mother, father, sister, or brother.

                          At some point, we will be keeping pace with Saddam at his peak in
                          killing Iraqis. We are now the Soviets, and Bush is Stalin.

                          Oh! Wait a minute: Iraqis, being poor and brown, barely register on
                          the human scale. So silly of me to forget!

                          100,000 people dead in an illegal war is a massacre. It is a war
                          crime on par few with others. If any other country did this,
                          Americans would be up in arms, but because this is us, "its not so
                          bad."

                          No small wonder George W Bush doesn't want the US to be part of the
                          International Criminal Court. He doesn't want to be dragged there
                          and put on trial for war crimes. And I see now what Bush means when
                          he tells us what a tremendous success Iraq is! How the Iraqi people
                          are just delighted with their new freedom! How happy the Iraqi
                          people are now that the murdering thug Saddam Hussein is gone.

                          We can now unequivocally say that the Iraqis were, in fact, better
                          off when Saddam Hussein was in power. There is no way Saddam would
                          have killed as many Iraqis in the past year and a half as we have.

                          You know, it must be 'really hard work' to butcher that many people.
                          And so we have a new Bushism: "death of brown people = freedom",
                          perfectly designed to appeal to Bush's Christian Fundamentalist
                          base.

                          I saw a bumper sticker today: "Support Terrorism! Vote for John
                          Kerry".

                          How will this country ever be sorry enough? How will we ever atone?

                          I guess I'll be seeing you in the deserts of Iran after the draft.

                          Donald L Feinberg
                          Naperville, IL
                        • holderlin66
                          When someone asks what conditions are right for a surge of disturbing volcanic soul incarnations or, maybe, what does the Earth Spirit think about our moral
                          Message 12 of 13 , Dec 28, 2004
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                            When someone asks what conditions are right for a surge of
                            disturbing volcanic soul incarnations or, maybe, what does the Earth
                            Spirit think about our moral depravity? We enter head on into a
                            world of hypocrisy, lies and political and religious self
                            righteousness in canned Orwellian lingo for the insane and morally
                            bankrupt.

                            Christimas Spirit, bah humbug. The web site What Really Happened
                            adds this to my own feelings:

                            "Colin Powell invoked it before the invasion, telling aides that if
                            the US went into Iraq "you're going to be owning this place". John
                            Kerry pledged his allegiance to it during the first presidential
                            debate, saying: "Now, if you break it, you made a mistake. It's the
                            wrong thing to do. But you own it."

                            "The analogy does not hold up. "We" didn't break "it", Bush and the
                            Neocons did, but their goal is to force We The People (including the
                            millions who told them NOT TO INVADE) to have to pay for the
                            breakage.

                            'This, of course, is something all americans should oppose. The war
                            was illegal, violating both international and US law, and We The
                            People are not obligated to pay the costs of an illegal war launched
                            without our permission. If someone has to pay the costs, it should
                            be those individuals who hijacked the US military for a personal
                            adventure. Let them write the checks out of their own personal
                            funds. And if the flag-waving morons who thought this war was a good
                            thing want to chip in, that is fine as well. But those of us who
                            knew the war was wrong from the start and opposed it are NOT
                            obligated to pay for either the war itself, or its aftermath.

                            Naomi Klein
                            Monday December 27, 2004
                            The Guardian

                            Colin Powell invoked it before the invasion, telling aides that if
                            the US went into Iraq "you're going to be owning this place". John
                            Kerry pledged his allegiance to it during the first presidential
                            debate, saying: "Now, if you break it, you made a mistake. It's the
                            wrong thing to do. But you own it."
                            It's the so-called Pottery Barn rule: "You break it, you own it."
                            Pottery Barn, a chain of stores that sells upmarket home furnishings
                            in shopping malls across America, apparently has an in-store policy
                            that if you shatter anything while shopping, you have to pay for it,
                            because "you own it".

                            In US foreign policy, this little dictate has come to wield more
                            influence than the Geneva conventions and the US army's law of land
                            warfare combined - except it turns out that the rule doesn't even
                            exist. "In the rare instance that something is broken in the store,
                            it's written off as a loss," an exasperated company spokesperson
                            recently told a journalist.

                            Never mind that. The imaginary policy of a store selling $80
                            corkscrews continues to be the favoured blunt instrument with which
                            to whack anyone who dares to suggest that the time has come to
                            withdraw troops from Iraq: sure the war was wrong, the argument
                            goes, but we can't stop now - you break it, you own it.

                            Though not invoking the chain store by name, Nicholas Kristof laid
                            out this argument in a recent New York Times column. "Our mistaken
                            invasion has left millions of Iraqis desperately vulnerable, and it
                            would be inhumane to abandon them now. If we stay in Iraq, there is
                            still some hope that Iraqis will come to enjoy security and better
                            lives, but if we pull out we will be condemning Iraqis to anarchy,
                            terrorism and starvation, costing the lives of hundreds of thousands
                            of children over the next decade."

                            Let's start with the idea that the US is helping to provide
                            security. On the contrary, the presence of US troops is provoking
                            violence on a daily basis. The truth is that as long as the troops
                            remain, the country's entire security apparatus - occupation forces
                            as well as Iraqi soldiers and police - will be exclusively dedicated
                            to fending off resistance attacks, leaving a security vacuum when it
                            comes to protecting regular Iraqis. If the troops pulled out, Iraqis
                            would still face insecurity, but they would be able to devote their
                            local security resources to regaining control over their cities and
                            neighbourhoods.

                            As for preventing "anarchy", the US plan to bring elections to Iraq
                            seems designed to spark a civil war - the civil war needed to
                            justify an ongoing presence for US troops no matter who wins the
                            elections. It was always clear that the Shia majority, which has
                            been calling for immediate elections for more than a year, was never
                            going to accept any delay in the election timetable. And it was
                            equally clear that by destroying Falluja in the name of preparing
                            the city for elections, much of the Sunni leadership would be forced
                            to call for an election boycott.

                            When Kristof asserts that US forces should stay in Iraq to save
                            hundreds of thousands of children from starvation, it's hard to
                            imagine what he has in mind. Hunger in Iraq is not merely the
                            humanitarian fallout of a war - it is the direct result of the US
                            decision to impose brutal "shock therapy" policies on a country that
                            was already sickened and weakened by 12 years of sanctions. Paul
                            Bremer's first act on the job was to lay off close to 500,000
                            Iraqis, and his primary accomplishment - for which he has just been
                            awarded the presidential medal of freedom - was to oversee
                            a "reconstruction" process that systematically stole jobs from needy
                            Iraqis and handed them to foreign firms, sending the unemployment
                            rate soaring to 67%.

                            And the worst of the shocks are yet to come. On November 21, the
                            group of industrialised countries known as the Paris Club finally
                            unveiled its plan for Iraq's unpayable debt. Rather than forgiving
                            it outright, the Paris Club laid out a three-year plan to write off
                            80%, contingent on Iraq's governments adhering to a strict
                            International Monetary Fund austerity programme. According to early
                            drafts, that programme includes "restructuring of state-owned
                            enterprises" (read: privatisation), a plan that Iraq's ministry of
                            industry predicts will require laying off an additional 145,000
                            workers. In the name of "free-market reforms", the IMF also wants to
                            eliminate the programme that provides each Iraqi family with a
                            basket of food - the only barrier to starvation for millions of
                            citizens. There is additional pressure to eliminate the food rations
                            coming from the World Trade Organisation, which, at Washington's
                            urging, is considering accepting Iraq as a member - provided it
                            adopts certain "reforms".

                            So let's be absolutely clear: the US, having broken Iraq, is not in
                            the process of fixing it. It is merely continuing to break the
                            country and its people by other means, using not only F-16s and
                            Bradleys, but now the less flashy weaponry of WTO and IMF
                            conditions, followed by elections designed to transfer as little
                            power to Iraqis as possible. This is what Argentinian writer Rodolfo
                            Walsh, writing before his assassination in 1977 by the military
                            junta, described as "planned misery". And the longer the US stays in
                            Iraq, the more misery it will plan.

                            But if staying in Iraq is not the solution, neither are easy bumper-
                            sticker calls to pull the troops out and spend the money on schools
                            and hospitals at home. Yes, the troops must leave, but that can be
                            only one plank of a credible and moral antiwar platform. What of
                            Iraq's schools and hospitals - the ones that were supposed to be
                            fixed by Bechtel but never were? Too often, antiwar forces have
                            shied away from speaking about what Americans owe Iraq. Rarely is
                            the word "compensation" spoken, let alone the more
                            loaded "reparations".

                            Antiwar forces have also failed to offer concrete support for the
                            political demands coming out of Iraq. For instance, when the Iraqi
                            national assembly condemned the Paris Club deal for forcing the
                            Iraqi people to pay Saddam's "odious" debts and robbing them of
                            their economic sovereignty, the antiwar movement was virtually
                            silent, save the dogged but undersupported Jubilee Iraq. And while
                            US soldiers aren't protecting Iraqis from starvation, the food
                            rations certainly are - so why isn't safeguarding this desperately
                            needed programme one of our central demands?

                            The failure to develop a credible platform beyond "troops out" may
                            be one reason the antiwar movement remains stalled, even as
                            opposition to the war deepens. Because the Pottery Barn rulers do
                            have a point: breaking a country should have consequences for the
                            breakers. Owning the broken country should not be one of them, but
                            how about paying for the repairs?"

                            A version of this column was first published in The Nation

                            www.thenation.com

                            holderlin on moral stance:

                            http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/11/con04476.html
                          • Steve Haag
                            ... be those individuals who hijacked the US military for a personal adventure. Let them write the checks out of their own personal funds. And if the
                            Message 13 of 13 , Dec 28, 2004
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                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "holderlin66"
                              <holderlin66@h...> wrote:
                              >
                              > If someone has to pay the costs, it should
                              be those individuals who hijacked the US military for a personal
                              adventure. Let them write the checks out of their own personal
                              funds. And if the flag-waving morons who thought this war was a good
                              thing want to chip in, that is fine as well. But those of us who
                              knew the war was wrong from the start and opposed it are NOT
                              obligated to pay for either the war itself, or its aftermath.

                              Bradford,

                              Yes, it raises the basic question of taxation without representation.
                              So how to live in a society of collective shared organization, while
                              not getting swept down paths the self as individual is firmly against?

                              SteveD
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