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R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Tomberg's Intentions

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  • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
    ... From: dottie zold Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 3:53 PM Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Tomberg s Intentions ... Dearest Dottie, Steiner never
    Message 1 of 3 , Oct 3, 2004
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: dottie zold >
      Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 3:53 PM
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Tomberg's Intentions


      >
      > Andrea, what was the relationship between the Doctor
      > and Mr. Tomberg?


      Dearest Dottie,
      Steiner never met Tomberg who had written twice to him,(1920-24) asking
      the Doctor in the first letter to to be recieived into "his gropup of
      pupils" and ,in the second one,to be admitted into the "School". There is
      no trace in the archive of a reply from Steiner that, seemingly, should have
      not given at all.
      Very strange; RS was used to reply to everyone in an actual need of help or
      advice, doesn't it?

      Do we have any hints of their
      > particular relationship?

      Well Tomberg seemed till the days of his "conversion" to think himself like
      a favourite disciple , also "from Beyond the Treshold".
      In my opinion he had no special relationship at all with the Doctor, Anyway
      he wrote some good anthro-thing till the 1935-38 and , after his closesness
      to Catholicism he went to "pasture elsewhere".

      > What are the comments that are deemed harsh from Mr.
      > Tomberg towards the Doctor or were they towards what
      > had happened to the Doctors initiative after his
      > death?

      In 1967 VT he wrote about it on "Lazarus komen herren"- pag.77(Basel 197
      edition- in which he twisted Steiner's insights till the claim that
      Spiritual Science has no "life" inside her having the form of a "science".
      This remark is more and more heavy if you think that he also wrote -lying-
      that RS was aware of such a "failure" inside Anthropos-Sophia! and he was
      "waiting for someone" namely a Bodhisattva (of the "life"?.
      So, many "Tomberghians" (see also Stephen Hale on AT) are ready to identify
      the Bodjisattva with VT himself!
      Moreover the above misunderstanding seems to be also the starting point
      in order to look for the "life" outside Spiritual Science namely into both
      Jesuitsim and Hermeticism as written especially inside the "Tarot's" work
      and most of all to claim about the "failure" of Cosciousness Soul's
      experience and the necessity to look at the Pope as the true Orienteer in
      modern Spiritual Experience.
      (A good review is iside SOP's book)..


      >
      > When I am a little pickled on this subject it is
      > because at times when in Anthro circles I hear people
      > judging other Anthros because they like Tomberg. Even
      > here in Los Angeles. I guess thats when it really hit
      > home. And the people talking bad about the Tomberg
      > likers didn't seem like very likeable nor open people.
      > And this point made me ponder the validity and
      > personal all tied up in the opinions.
      >

      This is the sad side of the story: one-sidedness at 100%


      > I was hit by a car today while walking from my coffee
      > shop to pick up a book I had left in the car. It was a
      > pretty horendous experience but I am okay. And it
      > makes me sad. But I am glad to be here to open your
      > mail today. It's interesting to me how many people in
      > the hosptial caring positions are so cold and blocked
      > by what is happening to people who have had such a
      > terrible experience. Anyhow, thanks for the post
      > below.
      >

      My best wishes
      Ad majora

      Andrea

      > Thanks,
      > Dottie
      >
      >
      > Andrea:
      >
      > > Tomberg's Intentions.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > If we want to think about Tomberg's story in a
      > > positive way we can say the following.
      > >
      > > For those born catholic it has often occurred to
      > > think " From a Spiritual Scientific standpoint
      > > what's necessary for Catholic weltanschauung in
      > > order to gain a true link with Christian Esoteric
      > > insights as they are presented by Steiiner?"
      > >
      > > Comparing Anthroposophic and Catholic cosmo-
      > > conception we could find that if we were able to
      > > rejuvenate Catholicism by the means of the
      > > "injection" of some Spiritual scientific insights
      > > about for instance the Reincarnation's Law -as
      > > depicted in Anthro-works- the pre-birth and
      > > after.death life , the Man as built up in
      > > Spirit-Soul-Body , things should begin to work in a
      > > fruitful direction.
      > >
      > > This could have also been Tomberg's intention when
      > > he decided to get close to Catholicism but , if in
      > > case, such good-rooted intentions met ,as it were, a
      > > second giant hindrance.
      > >
      > > The hindrance on a possible path of linking
      > > Esotericism and Exotericism in the Christian world
      > > was the powerful, Pyramidal, Third-Epoch-like
      > > structured Catholic Government in those years when
      > > Pio XII ruled as a Roman Emperor, with Jesuits as
      > > his right arm.
      > >
      > > So while Tomberg ended his path falling into some
      > > harsh criticism against Steiner's work and into a
      > > crucial misunderstanding of some basic
      > > Anthroposophical issue his attempts seemed to end
      > > in a vacuum. (1945-63)
      > >
      > > After 1963 there was also an attempt of change
      > > something inside the Roman Empire-like structure of
      > > the Vatican, namely the experience of Second
      > > Vatican Council carried on by Pope John XXIII, who,
      > > in his younger years , has been working hard, in
      > > the turmoil of Shoah, to save many Jews from the
      > > gassing.
      > >
      > > Such an attempt , to day, is at least
      > > slowed if not stopped by the very puzzling
      > > personality of Karol Wojtyla who, in spite of his
      > > open viewed readings and interests gave a strongest
      > > impulse to a rebirth of Centralism inside Catholic
      > > Church strongly sided by the "modern" jesuitic
      > > stream called "Opus Dei".
      > >
      > > These guys' deeds are sometimes actually
      > > "dressed of darkness" , if we think about the story
      > > of the death of the banker Roberto Calvi a fifteen
      > > years ago.
      > >
      > > Such a story , in a deeply shocking way, based on a
      > > path between Masonry and Opus Dei , via the armed
      > > hand arm of Mafia's killers and Intelligence, is
      > > able to remind to us what Steiner told Polzer Hoditz
      > > about "occult agreements" between Brotheroods and
      > > Loyola's followers.
      > >
      > > Surely, also to the best positive glance ,a
      > > Catholic Church close to people like those seems
      > > very , very hard to be Spiritually renovated. .
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Andrea
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • dottie zold
      ... (Basel 197 ... that ... a science . Andrea, do you think he could have meant that spiritual science was becoming too intellectualized and that the
      Message 2 of 3 , Oct 4, 2004
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        Andrea:
        > In 1967 VT he wrote about it on "Lazarus komen herren"- pag.77
        (Basel 197
        > edition- in which he twisted Steiner's insights till the claim
        that
        > Spiritual Science has no "life" inside her having the form of
        a "science".

        Andrea, do you think he could have meant that spiritual science was
        becoming too intellectualized and that the 'spirit' or love or heart
        of Spiritual Science was being left by the way side by this strong
        loveless intellect? I ask as you seem to have read more on him than I
        and I am wondering what you think?

        Andrea:
        > This remark is more and more heavy if you think that he also
        wrote -lying-
        > that RS was aware of such a "failure" inside Anthropos-Sophia!


        Andrea, I have to say that the Doctor, and I am sure for some good
        reason, has really left it up to his followers to develope the Sophia
        theme to its fullest extent. I do not find that the Doctor dealt with
        Her as explicitely as he has with the masculine aspects of the work.
        It may sound harsh to the Doctors students but I wonder if you have
        thought of it from another perspective such as mine. I have felt
        guided by the Doctors work to Magdalene hence Sophia. But look how
        long it has taken me and how convoluted it is. So much so that more
        than half of his students if not more are still not on the Being
        Sophias doorsteps. Their still wondering if Brabant-Schmidt or Sergio
        Prokofieff are the real things or not. Yet I can tell you that I have
        been led to the same works as these learned men. And The Fifth Gospel
        was the start of it for me.

        So, is there anyway to look and see what he was talking about versus
        it being an insult to the Doctor? But then again I have not read the
        context and you have so maybe he was being more meanspirited. I guess
        I will have to read up although I am not sure why I am supposed to.
        Unless maybe it is to bring a bridge connection to what has been
        percieved and possibly through a dark glass.


        Andrea:
        and he was
        > "waiting for someone" namely a Bodhisattva (of the "life"?.

        I wonder if he was speaking of Magdalene in this Bodhisattva? Mostly
        I wonder this because she is in the lodge supposedly and she is the
        earthly representative of Sophia. Maybe he wasn't fully aware of it
        and that is where the 'waiting' comes from.

        Andrea:
        > So, many "Tomberghians" (see also Stephen Hale on AT) are ready to
        identify
        > the Bodjisattva with VT himself!

        Well, he may have been on the Bodhisattvas path but so am I:) But I
        believe the Bodisattva he was looking for has to do with the Sophia
        and I am getting a stronger sense that this is why he entered into
        the Catholic Church: he could not find her in Anthroposophy. But She
        is there but the students are just now finding this out on a larger
        scale. And in regards to his Tarot cards it makes absolute sense as
        those cards are truly the Feminine Divine cards. Well at least in my
        opinion and from what I can gather of what little I have read.

        Everyone seems so worried about not 'seeing' Her before their
        supposed to as its for the next epoch. But She is here and I imagine
        he felt Her presence coming up through the church and the hidden
        teachings. I mean Magdalene is in these teachings and even though it
        is not clear to the non-discerning eye she is front and center. Even
        Father Justino has found her through Mr. Browns work.

        All my best,
        Dottie
      • dottie zold
        Andrea, I want to say I think my interpretations of Tombergs intentions are correct. I can find that only this way makes sense for some reason. What do you
        Message 3 of 3 , Oct 4, 2004
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          Andrea, I want to say I think my interpretations of Tombergs
          intentions are correct. I can find that only this way makes sense for
          some reason. What do you think? Is this too simplified of an
          explanation that you do not wish to share more of what Mr. Tomberg
          has said that seems like and affront to the Doctor? For I would like
          to flesh this out so we can get past Tomberg as the adversary. Not
          that you personally have said so but there is a strong division that
          has been created within AP and I think it deserves to be thought
          through in a clear headed manner. For it seems that what has been
          thought of as insults truly are not, they were just not taken well by
          the students and Maria very well at the time. But they were not meant
          as an insult rather as what was really happening within him and what
          he truly wanted to share and he actually felt was his mission to
          share with Anthroposophy. But he was turned down in no uncertain
          terms. And maybe it was for the best and maybe not. But She is coming
          through and I believe he has been a faithfull guide to the Doctors
          initiative of bringing awareness of the Being Anthroposophia and Her
          mission here on Earth.

          My best,
          Dottie
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