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R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Moltke "initiated" WWI or Conspiracy of a 'Dark Lodge' ?

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  • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
    ... Andrea (a little bothered) answers Well, St Thomas . here there are some sources: GEMINELLO ALVI: Dell Estremo Occidente (Perugia 1989) partially
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 9, 2004
      ----- Original Message -----
      From:

      > Well I pointed also out where 'most' of the pre-war years money came
      > from (I can post that but its a longer mail).
      >
      > What you are critical of, yet I thought was significant however is
      > where the money came from to allow for the War action of Hitler,
      > for which ( including his daylight robbery and murder of innocent
      > civilians who had worked hard and as a result had some money and
      > jewelry) the Nazi's and anybody who can make to look like a
      > complicient in this case, can be fingerred.
      >
      > Because most of the people who do (like you ) pick and choose
      > relatively small amounts from here or there taken out of the above
      > larger context, is to next indirectly 'imply' the Rockefeller
      > Foundation, or, or, therefore was supported Hitler WWII plans. That
      > is not true, you have to look how, where, and for what that money
      > came from, you have not shown that. Neither have you respondent to
      > my question what book or source the information you presented came
      > from.So I'm still whaiting.

      Andrea (a little bothered) answers

      Well, "St Thomas". here there are some sources:
      GEMINELLO ALVI: "Dell' Estremo Occidente" (Perugia 1989) partially
      re-written as "Il Secolo Americano" (Milano 1995) .It has been translated in
      French by Bousset,Paris.
      Alvi is an economist from BIRS and Bank of Italy, interested in Spiritual
      Science. Most of the infos about the "streams of money" from Western-based
      institutions to Adolph and Friends are into its economical studies.
      You can contact him in person (he uses five or six different languages) but,
      pay attention, he is a little...rude.

      ..For the overall nazi-occult connection (apart from the insights of
      Bradford about the occult as a basic part of life) see:
      N.Goodrick Clarke, Giorgio Galli,Rene Alleau ,Jesaiah Ben Aharon (who is not
      an historian but is also something more of that)
      Pauwel and Berger were able to mix truths and falsehoods., just like our
      common friend Trevor (who made fun of you,) "whoever has ears.........."

      > That is then how (including neo-Nazi's today) they next come to
      > construct their conspiracy theories.


      Oh sure I'm a conspiracy nuts.......


      You also in an earlier post
      > claimed a group of Englishman (sounds like Steiner's 'Fall of the
      > spirits of Darkness' that I referred to yesterday) where in fact
      > responsible for also WWI.

      If you are really interested about my insights , and not only to dismiss
      them following your standpoint (that I find, excuse me, feeble; having also
      discussed a giant lot in my early days with "SERIOUS" HISTORIANS, UNABLE TO
      UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN PREJUDICES,THINKING THEMSELVES TO BE "SCIENTIFIC") pls
      read also my post about Reichstag's arson incident. In my opinion we are in
      front of a struggle of "men and gods"....
      If it resounds like Steiner's insights.... what better for me?

      A.
      >
      > Eric
      >
      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "VALENTINA BRUNETTI"
      > <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
      > > Pls pay attention!!
      > > Me and Gisele too, were talking foir the most part about pre-war
      > years
      > > financial help.
      > > (It seems to me that you want to be "right" in any possible
      > way.....).
      > > Andrea..
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: epwijnantsresearch <epwijnantsresearch@y...>
      > > To: <anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 6:21 AM
      > > Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Moltke "initiated" WWI ?
      > >
      > >
      > > > Most of the money that kept the Nazi War machine going they took
      > > > from the Jews they killed, they where not 'given' that
      > by 'western
      > > > based financial institutions'. At least not if you ad up all the
      > > > figures and not just pick and choose as you do below in a
      > distorted
      > > > manner.
      > > >
      > > > Since I have been asked this in the case of Moltke starting WWI
      > (and
      > > > listed about eight recent books), may I ask what reputeable
      > books of
      > > > a recent date have you read on the subject that you are referring
      > > > to ?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Eric
      > > >
      > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Gisele
      > > > <Fioredortica@Y...> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > VALENTINA BRUNETTI <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
      > > > > Moreover, if we look at the stream of money that was given to
      > Nazi
      > > > Party,
      > > > > especially between 1930 1nd 1933, from western-based financial
      > > > > insititustions (Schroeder,Warburg,Brown-Harriman and so on) we
      > can
      > > > see a
      > > > > "visible hand" that leads us directly to the
      > connection "Western
      > > > > Lodges-Finance Corporation" . (See Geminello Alvi "IL secolo
      > > > Americano".
      > > > > Milan 1999)
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ~Gisele uncloacks:
      > > > >
      > > > > Yes. In 1930 / 31 Fritz Thyssen arranged credit of about 250-
      > > > 300,000 gold marks for R. Hess with the Dutch bank BHS. The
      > overall
      > > > total of Thyssen's political donations and loans to the Nazis was
      > > > well over a million dollars. Major co-owner with Thyssen of the
      > > > German Steel Trust (Germany largest industrial corporation at the
      > > > time) was Friederich Flick, one of the leading financiers and
      > > > industrialists who in the 1930s contributed large sums to the
      > Nazi
      > > > Party - a member of the 'Circle of Friends' of Himler who founded
      > > > the SS. At the Nuremberg Trials Flick was condemned to 7 years in
      > > > prison for his help in the build-up of the Nazi war machine with
      > > > coal, steel and arms production - he served 3 - thanks to his
      > > > friends in New York and London, and died in the 1970s a
      > billionaire.
      > > > And who were his 'friends' and colleagues in the build-up to
      > WWII?
      > > > >
      > > > > Back in 1920 Bert Walker (Bush's maternal grandad) and Samuel
      > > > Pryor (Remington Arms / WWI major arms supplier to all sides /
      > one
      > > > of the 'Merchants of Death' profiteers from WWI) arranged a
      > merger
      > > > between W.A. Harriman & Co. with J.P. Morgan's (London) private
      > > > bank. This enabled Averell Harriman to become co-owner of the
      > > > Hamburg-Amerika Line (Shipping) which became a major instrument
      > for
      > > > the manipulation and subversion of Germany. Negotiators in the
      > > > Harriman take-over were: W. Cuno, Post WWI chief executive of the
      > > > Hamburg-Amerika Line, financial contributor to the Nazi Party; M.
      > > > Warburg, Hamburg-Amerika Line banker, Nazi financial
      > contributor; A.
      > > > Voegler, chief executive of the Thyssen - Flick German Steel
      > Trust,
      > > > director of BHS Bank in Rotterdam, director of Hamburg-Amerika
      > Line,
      > > > helped organize the final Nazi leap into power; Baron von
      > Schroeder,
      > > > co-director of Thyssen's foundries with J. Groeniger (Prescott
      > > > Bush's NY banking partner), treasurer of the support organization
      > > > for the
      > > > > Nazi Party private armies.....
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your
      > friends
      > > > today! Download Messenger Now
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • epwijnantsresearch
      VALENTINA: Oh sure I m a conspiracy nuts. Eric: Well that says it all then. As for Ravenscroft I dont believe you where friends with him. But then I would
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 9, 2004
        VALENTINA: Oh sure I'm a conspiracy nuts.

        Eric: Well that says it all then.

        As for Ravenscroft I dont believe you where friends with him. But
        then I would change my mind if you where to produce a few personal
        letters from Ravenscroft where he refers to a meeting with you.
        Unless you talked to him post mortem, of course....

        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "VALENTINA BRUNETTI"
        <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From:
        >
        > > Well I pointed also out where 'most' of the pre-war years money
        came
        > > from (I can post that but its a longer mail).
        > >
        > > What you are critical of, yet I thought was significant however
        is
        > > where the money came from to allow for the War action of Hitler,
        > > for which ( including his daylight robbery and murder of innocent
        > > civilians who had worked hard and as a result had some money and
        > > jewelry) the Nazi's and anybody who can make to look like a
        > > complicient in this case, can be fingerred.
        > >
        > > Because most of the people who do (like you ) pick and choose
        > > relatively small amounts from here or there taken out of the
        above
        > > larger context, is to next indirectly 'imply' the Rockefeller
        > > Foundation, or, or, therefore was supported Hitler WWII plans.
        That
        > > is not true, you have to look how, where, and for what that money
        > > came from, you have not shown that. Neither have you respondent
        to
        > > my question what book or source the information you presented
        came
        > > from.So I'm still whaiting.
        >
        > Andrea (a little bothered) answers
        >
        > Well, "St Thomas". here there are some sources:
        > GEMINELLO ALVI: "Dell' Estremo Occidente" (Perugia 1989) partially
        > re-written as "Il Secolo Americano" (Milano 1995) .It has been
        translated in
        > French by Bousset,Paris.
        > Alvi is an economist from BIRS and Bank of Italy, interested in
        Spiritual
        > Science. Most of the infos about the "streams of money" from
        Western-based
        > institutions to Adolph and Friends are into its economical studies.
        > You can contact him in person (he uses five or six different
        languages) but,
        > pay attention, he is a little...rude.
        >
        > ..For the overall nazi-occult connection (apart from the insights
        of
        > Bradford about the occult as a basic part of life) see:
        > N.Goodrick Clarke, Giorgio Galli,Rene Alleau ,Jesaiah Ben Aharon
        (who is not
        > an historian but is also something more of that)
        > Pauwel and Berger were able to mix truths and falsehoods., just
        like our
        > common friend Trevor (who made fun of you,) "whoever has
        ears.........."
        >
        > > That is then how (including neo-Nazi's today) they next come to
        > > construct their conspiracy theories.
        >
        >
        > Oh sure I'm a conspiracy nuts.......
        >
        >
        > You also in an earlier post
        > > claimed a group of Englishman (sounds like Steiner's 'Fall of the
        > > spirits of Darkness' that I referred to yesterday) where in fact
        > > responsible for also WWI.
        >
        > If you are really interested about my insights , and not only to
        dismiss
        > them following your standpoint (that I find, excuse me, feeble;
        having also
        > discussed a giant lot in my early days with "SERIOUS" HISTORIANS,
        UNABLE TO
        > UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN PREJUDICES,THINKING THEMSELVES TO
        BE "SCIENTIFIC") pls
        > read also my post about Reichstag's arson incident. In my opinion
        we are in
        > front of a struggle of "men and gods"....
        > If it resounds like Steiner's insights.... what better for me?
        >
        > A.
        > >
        > > Eric
        > >
        > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "VALENTINA
        BRUNETTI"
        > > <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
        > > > Pls pay attention!!
        > > > Me and Gisele too, were talking foir the most part about pre-
        war
        > > years
        > > > financial help.
        > > > (It seems to me that you want to be "right" in any possible
        > > way.....).
        > > > Andrea..
        > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > From: epwijnantsresearch <epwijnantsresearch@y...>
        > > > To: <anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 6:21 AM
        > > > Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Moltke "initiated"
        WWI ?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > > Most of the money that kept the Nazi War machine going they
        took
        > > > > from the Jews they killed, they where not 'given' that
        > > by 'western
        > > > > based financial institutions'. At least not if you ad up all
        the
        > > > > figures and not just pick and choose as you do below in a
        > > distorted
        > > > > manner.
        > > > >
        > > > > Since I have been asked this in the case of Moltke starting
        WWI
        > > (and
        > > > > listed about eight recent books), may I ask what reputeable
        > > books of
        > > > > a recent date have you read on the subject that you are
        referring
        > > > > to ?
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Eric
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Gisele
        > > > > <Fioredortica@Y...> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > VALENTINA BRUNETTI <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
        > > > > > Moreover, if we look at the stream of money that was given
        to
        > > Nazi
        > > > > Party,
        > > > > > especially between 1930 1nd 1933, from western-based
        financial
        > > > > > insititustions (Schroeder,Warburg,Brown-Harriman and so
        on) we
        > > can
        > > > > see a
        > > > > > "visible hand" that leads us directly to the
        > > connection "Western
        > > > > > Lodges-Finance Corporation" . (See Geminello Alvi "IL
        secolo
        > > > > Americano".
        > > > > > Milan 1999)
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > ~Gisele uncloacks:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Yes. In 1930 / 31 Fritz Thyssen arranged credit of about
        250-
        > > > > 300,000 gold marks for R. Hess with the Dutch bank BHS. The
        > > overall
        > > > > total of Thyssen's political donations and loans to the
        Nazis was
        > > > > well over a million dollars. Major co-owner with Thyssen of
        the
        > > > > German Steel Trust (Germany largest industrial corporation
        at the
        > > > > time) was Friederich Flick, one of the leading financiers and
        > > > > industrialists who in the 1930s contributed large sums to the
        > > Nazi
        > > > > Party - a member of the 'Circle of Friends' of Himler who
        founded
        > > > > the SS. At the Nuremberg Trials Flick was condemned to 7
        years in
        > > > > prison for his help in the build-up of the Nazi war machine
        with
        > > > > coal, steel and arms production - he served 3 - thanks to his
        > > > > friends in New York and London, and died in the 1970s a
        > > billionaire.
        > > > > And who were his 'friends' and colleagues in the build-up to
        > > WWII?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Back in 1920 Bert Walker (Bush's maternal grandad) and
        Samuel
        > > > > Pryor (Remington Arms / WWI major arms supplier to all
        sides /
        > > one
        > > > > of the 'Merchants of Death' profiteers from WWI) arranged a
        > > merger
        > > > > between W.A. Harriman & Co. with J.P. Morgan's (London)
        private
        > > > > bank. This enabled Averell Harriman to become co-owner of the
        > > > > Hamburg-Amerika Line (Shipping) which became a major
        instrument
        > > for
        > > > > the manipulation and subversion of Germany. Negotiators in
        the
        > > > > Harriman take-over were: W. Cuno, Post WWI chief executive
        of the
        > > > > Hamburg-Amerika Line, financial contributor to the Nazi
        Party; M.
        > > > > Warburg, Hamburg-Amerika Line banker, Nazi financial
        > > contributor; A.
        > > > > Voegler, chief executive of the Thyssen - Flick German Steel
        > > Trust,
        > > > > director of BHS Bank in Rotterdam, director of Hamburg-
        Amerika
        > > Line,
        > > > > helped organize the final Nazi leap into power; Baron von
        > > Schroeder,
        > > > > co-director of Thyssen's foundries with J. Groeniger
        (Prescott
        > > > > Bush's NY banking partner), treasurer of the support
        organization
        > > > > for the
        > > > > > Nazi Party private armies.....
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > ---------------------------------
        > > > > > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your
        > > friends
        > > > > today! Download Messenger Now
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
      • Tarjei Straume
        ... My 2 c: Who gives a shit what this cat believes or not...? Trying to change his mind one way or the other ain t worth a raised eyebrow in my book.... If
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 9, 2004
          At 03:56 10.06.2004, Eric wrote to Andrea:

          >As for Ravenscroft I dont believe you where friends with him. But then I
          >would change my mind if you where to produce a few personal letters from
          >Ravenscroft where he refers to a meeting with you. Unless you talked to
          >him post mortem, of course....

          My 2 c: Who gives a shit what this cat believes or not...? Trying to change
          his mind one way or the other ain't worth a raised eyebrow in my book....

          If Eric is going to influence Yours Truly's opinion about the value of his
          persuasion, he has to do some incredible intellectual acrobatics and prove
          that he is a Very Important Person. I am holding my breath in unbearable
          suspense..... :)

          Frankly, I have never seen anyone with such high regard for his own opinion.

          Tarjei
        • holderlin66
          Tarjei Straume wrote: Frankly, I have never seen anyone with such high regard for his own opinion. Tarjei Well, while you may not have seen me on my sitcom,
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 10, 2004
            Tarjei Straume wrote:

            "Frankly, I have never seen anyone with such high regard for his own
            opinion."

            Tarjei

            Well, while you may not have seen me on my sitcom, "ask bradie" it
            plays next to "uncle Tajie tells all", just after "Everyone loves
            Rudie", I thought for sure I held the record for having the highest
            regard for my own opinion. I thought everyone knew that. Hey if you
            don't believe me check the ratings, they are just below the ratings
            for Ronnie's Funeral dirge that went on and on...
          • zapdingo
            Forgive me Tarjei but in this contest my support and vote will go to my friend Bradford. Not only has he the most regard for his own opinion - in my opinion -
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 10, 2004
              Forgive me Tarjei but in this contest my support and vote will go to my friend Bradford. Not only has he the most regard for his own opinion - in my opinion - but also in reading his e-mails I can always picture him as this fiery giant bellowing down from the top of Mount Certainty, where the air must sure be mighty fresh, even a bit intoxicating, maybe, for he never seems to want to climb down much.
              And changing subjects, is anybody else feeling strangely invigorated after hearing that Dornach thinks we are all crackpots? If only for this precious piece of information, I thank you, Eric.  I must say you're even more entertaining in the role of gossiper than in that  of  historian. 
              Bryan

              holderlin> wrote:
              Tarjei Straume  wrote:

              "Frankly, I have never seen anyone with such high regard for his own
              opinion."

              Tarjei

              Well, while you may not have seen me on my sitcom, "ask bradie" it
              plays next to "uncle Tajie tells all", just after "Everyone loves
              Rudie", I thought for sure I held the record for having the highest
              regard for my own opinion. I thought everyone knew that. Hey if you
              don't believe me check the ratings, they are just below the ratings
              for Ronnie's Funeral dirge that went on and on...





              Do you Yahoo!?
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            • zapdingo
              One of my very favourites, ladies and gentleman, Edgar Allan Poe: ALONE By Edgar Allan Poe From childhood s hour I have not been As others were; I have not
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 10, 2004

                One of my very favourites, ladies and gentleman, Edgar Allan Poe:

                 

                ALONE

                By Edgar Allan Poe

                From childhood's hour I have not been
                As others were; I have not seen
                As others saw; I could not bring
                My passions from a common spring.
                From the same source I have not taken
                My sorrow; I could not awaken
                My heart to joy at the same tone;
                And all I loved, I loved alone.
                Then - in my childhood, in the dawn
                Of a most stormy life - was drawn
                From every depth of good and ill
                The mystery which binds me still:
                From the torrent, or the fountain,
                From the red cliff of the mountain,
                From the sun that round me rolled
                In its autumn tint of gold,
                From the lightning in the sky
                As it passed me flying by,
                From the thunder and the storm,
                And the cloud that took the form
                (When the rest of Heaven was blue)
                Of a demon in my view.

                 

                 


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              • holderlin66
                zapdingo wrote: ALONE By Edgar Allan Poe From childhood s hour I have not been As others were; I have not seen As others saw; I could not bring My passions
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 10, 2004
                  zapdingo wrote:

                  ALONE

                  By Edgar Allan Poe

                  From childhood's hour I have not been
                  As others were; I have not seen
                  As others saw; I could not bring
                  My passions from a common spring.
                  From the same source I have not taken
                  My sorrow; I could not awaken
                  My heart to joy at the same tone;
                  And all I loved, I loved alone.
                  Then - in my childhood, in the dawn
                  Of a most stormy life - was drawn
                  From every depth of good and ill
                  The mystery which binds me still:
                  From the torrent, or the fountain,
                  From the red cliff of the mountain,
                  From the sun that round me rolled
                  In its autumn tint of gold,
                  From the lightning in the sky
                  As it passed me flying by,
                  From the thunder and the storm,
                  And the cloud that took the form
                  (When the rest of Heaven was blue)
                  Of a demon in my view.

                  Bradford comments;

                  I'll take Poe over Frost. No Nostalgia here. Heroic, like Christopher
                  Fry. Heroic for those called upon to face thought with courage and
                  follow trails of insight, or where the story leads, even if it leads
                  to the spiritual world and Poe's battle of addiction at the
                  threshold. What can we learn from the Opium insights of Poe or the
                  Mood of courage from Steiner? Could we compare the victims of the
                  Opium Wars, handicapped, soul damaged, or forced in fear from the
                  threshold of the spiritual world by nightmares and opium induced
                  dreams? How many hundreds of thousands wasted away in Opium dens?

                  The human heart can go the length of God.
                  Dark and cold we may be, but this is no winter now.
                  The frozen misery of centuries cracks, breaks, begins to move.
                  The thunder is the thunder of the floes, the thaw, the flood, the
                  upstart Spring.
                  Thank God our time is now, when wrong comes up to meet us everywhere.
                  Never to leave us, till we take,
                  The longest stride of soul men ever took
                  Affairs are now soul size,
                  The enterprise is exploration into God
                  But where are you making for?
                  It takes so many thousand years to wake,
                  But will you wake for pity's sake?

                  http://www.peterussell.com/speaker/Talks/Fukushima.html
                • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
                  ... VALENTINA: Oh sure I m a conspiracy nuts. ... Have you ever heard about self-irony ? ... Who cares? . But ... Who tells you that he wrote to me or I
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jun 10, 2004
                    ----- Original Message -----

                    VALENTINA: Oh sure I'm a conspiracy nuts.
                    >



                    > Eric: Well that says it all then.

                    Have you ever heard about "self-irony" ?

                    >
                    > As for Ravenscroft I dont believe you where friends with him

                    Who cares?

                    . But
                    > then I would change my mind if you where to produce a few personal
                    > letters from Ravenscroft

                    Who tells you that he wrote to me or I wrote to him and, most of all, WHO
                    TOLD YOU THAT I WANT TO CHANGE SOMETHING INSIDE YA BRAIN '

                    where he refers to a meeting with you.
                    > Unless you talked to him post mortem, of course....

                    No, I ain't got such a power......

                    Bye, sleep tight

                    A.

                    >
                    > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "VALENTINA BRUNETTI"
                    > <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From:
                    > >
                    > > > Well I pointed also out where 'most' of the pre-war years money
                    > came
                    > > > from (I can post that but its a longer mail).
                    > > >
                    > > > What you are critical of, yet I thought was significant however
                    > is
                    > > > where the money came from to allow for the War action of Hitler,
                    > > > for which ( including his daylight robbery and murder of innocent
                    > > > civilians who had worked hard and as a result had some money and
                    > > > jewelry) the Nazi's and anybody who can make to look like a
                    > > > complicient in this case, can be fingerred.
                    > > >
                    > > > Because most of the people who do (like you ) pick and choose
                    > > > relatively small amounts from here or there taken out of the
                    > above
                    > > > larger context, is to next indirectly 'imply' the Rockefeller
                    > > > Foundation, or, or, therefore was supported Hitler WWII plans.
                    > That
                    > > > is not true, you have to look how, where, and for what that money
                    > > > came from, you have not shown that. Neither have you respondent
                    > to
                    > > > my question what book or source the information you presented
                    > came
                    > > > from.So I'm still whaiting.
                    > >
                    > > Andrea (a little bothered) answers
                    > >
                    > > Well, "St Thomas". here there are some sources:
                    > > GEMINELLO ALVI: "Dell' Estremo Occidente" (Perugia 1989) partially
                    > > re-written as "Il Secolo Americano" (Milano 1995) .It has been
                    > translated in
                    > > French by Bousset,Paris.
                    > > Alvi is an economist from BIRS and Bank of Italy, interested in
                    > Spiritual
                    > > Science. Most of the infos about the "streams of money" from
                    > Western-based
                    > > institutions to Adolph and Friends are into its economical studies.
                    > > You can contact him in person (he uses five or six different
                    > languages) but,
                    > > pay attention, he is a little...rude.
                    > >
                    > > ..For the overall nazi-occult connection (apart from the insights
                    > of
                    > > Bradford about the occult as a basic part of life) see:
                    > > N.Goodrick Clarke, Giorgio Galli,Rene Alleau ,Jesaiah Ben Aharon
                    > (who is not
                    > > an historian but is also something more of that)
                    > > Pauwel and Berger were able to mix truths and falsehoods., just
                    > like our
                    > > common friend Trevor (who made fun of you,) "whoever has
                    > ears.........."
                    > >
                    > > > That is then how (including neo-Nazi's today) they next come to
                    > > > construct their conspiracy theories.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Oh sure I'm a conspiracy nuts.......
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > You also in an earlier post
                    > > > claimed a group of Englishman (sounds like Steiner's 'Fall of the
                    > > > spirits of Darkness' that I referred to yesterday) where in fact
                    > > > responsible for also WWI.
                    > >
                    > > If you are really interested about my insights , and not only to
                    > dismiss
                    > > them following your standpoint (that I find, excuse me, feeble;
                    > having also
                    > > discussed a giant lot in my early days with "SERIOUS" HISTORIANS,
                    > UNABLE TO
                    > > UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN PREJUDICES,THINKING THEMSELVES TO
                    > BE "SCIENTIFIC") pls
                    > > read also my post about Reichstag's arson incident. In my opinion
                    > we are in
                    > > front of a struggle of "men and gods"....
                    > > If it resounds like Steiner's insights.... what better for me?
                    > >
                    > > A.
                    > > >
                    > > > Eric
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "VALENTINA
                    > BRUNETTI"
                    > > > <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
                    > > > > Pls pay attention!!
                    > > > > Me and Gisele too, were talking foir the most part about pre-
                    > war
                    > > > years
                    > > > > financial help.
                    > > > > (It seems to me that you want to be "right" in any possible
                    > > > way.....).
                    > > > > Andrea..
                    > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > > From: epwijnantsresearch <epwijnantsresearch@y...>
                    > > > > To: <anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 6:21 AM
                    > > > > Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Moltke "initiated"
                    > WWI ?
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > > Most of the money that kept the Nazi War machine going they
                    > took
                    > > > > > from the Jews they killed, they where not 'given' that
                    > > > by 'western
                    > > > > > based financial institutions'. At least not if you ad up all
                    > the
                    > > > > > figures and not just pick and choose as you do below in a
                    > > > distorted
                    > > > > > manner.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Since I have been asked this in the case of Moltke starting
                    > WWI
                    > > > (and
                    > > > > > listed about eight recent books), may I ask what reputeable
                    > > > books of
                    > > > > > a recent date have you read on the subject that you are
                    > referring
                    > > > > > to ?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Eric
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Gisele
                    > > > > > <Fioredortica@Y...> wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > VALENTINA BRUNETTI <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
                    > > > > > > Moreover, if we look at the stream of money that was given
                    > to
                    > > > Nazi
                    > > > > > Party,
                    > > > > > > especially between 1930 1nd 1933, from western-based
                    > financial
                    > > > > > > insititustions (Schroeder,Warburg,Brown-Harriman and so
                    > on) we
                    > > > can
                    > > > > > see a
                    > > > > > > "visible hand" that leads us directly to the
                    > > > connection "Western
                    > > > > > > Lodges-Finance Corporation" . (See Geminello Alvi "IL
                    > secolo
                    > > > > > Americano".
                    > > > > > > Milan 1999)
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > ~Gisele uncloacks:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Yes. In 1930 / 31 Fritz Thyssen arranged credit of about
                    > 250-
                    > > > > > 300,000 gold marks for R. Hess with the Dutch bank BHS. The
                    > > > overall
                    > > > > > total of Thyssen's political donations and loans to the
                    > Nazis was
                    > > > > > well over a million dollars. Major co-owner with Thyssen of
                    > the
                    > > > > > German Steel Trust (Germany largest industrial corporation
                    > at the
                    > > > > > time) was Friederich Flick, one of the leading financiers and
                    > > > > > industrialists who in the 1930s contributed large sums to the
                    > > > Nazi
                    > > > > > Party - a member of the 'Circle of Friends' of Himler who
                    > founded
                    > > > > > the SS. At the Nuremberg Trials Flick was condemned to 7
                    > years in
                    > > > > > prison for his help in the build-up of the Nazi war machine
                    > with
                    > > > > > coal, steel and arms production - he served 3 - thanks to his
                    > > > > > friends in New York and London, and died in the 1970s a
                    > > > billionaire.
                    > > > > > And who were his 'friends' and colleagues in the build-up to
                    > > > WWII?
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Back in 1920 Bert Walker (Bush's maternal grandad) and
                    > Samuel
                    > > > > > Pryor (Remington Arms / WWI major arms supplier to all
                    > sides /
                    > > > one
                    > > > > > of the 'Merchants of Death' profiteers from WWI) arranged a
                    > > > merger
                    > > > > > between W.A. Harriman & Co. with J.P. Morgan's (London)
                    > private
                    > > > > > bank. This enabled Averell Harriman to become co-owner of the
                    > > > > > Hamburg-Amerika Line (Shipping) which became a major
                    > instrument
                    > > > for
                    > > > > > the manipulation and subversion of Germany. Negotiators in
                    > the
                    > > > > > Harriman take-over were: W. Cuno, Post WWI chief executive
                    > of the
                    > > > > > Hamburg-Amerika Line, financial contributor to the Nazi
                    > Party; M.
                    > > > > > Warburg, Hamburg-Amerika Line banker, Nazi financial
                    > > > contributor; A.
                    > > > > > Voegler, chief executive of the Thyssen - Flick German Steel
                    > > > Trust,
                    > > > > > director of BHS Bank in Rotterdam, director of Hamburg-
                    > Amerika
                    > > > Line,
                    > > > > > helped organize the final Nazi leap into power; Baron von
                    > > > Schroeder,
                    > > > > > co-director of Thyssen's foundries with J. Groeniger
                    > (Prescott
                    > > > > > Bush's NY banking partner), treasurer of the support
                    > organization
                    > > > > > for the
                    > > > > > > Nazi Party private armies.....
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > > > > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your
                    > > > friends
                    > > > > > today! Download Messenger Now
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Patrick
                    Dear Eric, You also referred to a meeting with Ravenscroft. Where is the documentation for your meeting? I only asked you to give me details of your meeting.
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jun 10, 2004
                      Dear Eric,

                      You also referred to a meeting with Ravenscroft. Where is the documentation
                      for your meeting? I only asked you to give me details of your meeting. You
                      were not forthcoming. Why not?

                      Patrick

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: epwijnantsresearch [mailto:epwijnantsresearch@...]
                      Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 6:57 PM
                      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Moltke "initiated" WWI or
                      Conspiracy of a 'Dark Lodge' ?


                      VALENTINA: Oh sure I'm a conspiracy nuts.

                      Eric: Well that says it all then.

                      As for Ravenscroft I dont believe you where friends with him. But
                      then I would change my mind if you where to produce a few personal
                      letters from Ravenscroft where he refers to a meeting with you.
                      Unless you talked to him post mortem, of course....

                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "VALENTINA BRUNETTI"
                      <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From:
                      >
                      > > Well I pointed also out where 'most' of the pre-war years money
                      came
                      > > from (I can post that but its a longer mail).
                      > >
                      > > What you are critical of, yet I thought was significant however
                      is
                      > > where the money came from to allow for the War action of Hitler,
                      > > for which ( including his daylight robbery and murder of innocent
                      > > civilians who had worked hard and as a result had some money and
                      > > jewelry) the Nazi's and anybody who can make to look like a
                      > > complicient in this case, can be fingerred.
                      > >
                      > > Because most of the people who do (like you ) pick and choose
                      > > relatively small amounts from here or there taken out of the
                      above
                      > > larger context, is to next indirectly 'imply' the Rockefeller
                      > > Foundation, or, or, therefore was supported Hitler WWII plans.
                      That
                      > > is not true, you have to look how, where, and for what that money
                      > > came from, you have not shown that. Neither have you respondent
                      to
                      > > my question what book or source the information you presented
                      came
                      > > from.So I'm still whaiting.
                      >
                      > Andrea (a little bothered) answers
                      >
                      > Well, "St Thomas". here there are some sources:
                      > GEMINELLO ALVI: "Dell' Estremo Occidente" (Perugia 1989) partially
                      > re-written as "Il Secolo Americano" (Milano 1995) .It has been
                      translated in
                      > French by Bousset,Paris.
                      > Alvi is an economist from BIRS and Bank of Italy, interested in
                      Spiritual
                      > Science. Most of the infos about the "streams of money" from
                      Western-based
                      > institutions to Adolph and Friends are into its economical studies.
                      > You can contact him in person (he uses five or six different
                      languages) but,
                      > pay attention, he is a little...rude.
                      >
                      > ..For the overall nazi-occult connection (apart from the insights
                      of
                      > Bradford about the occult as a basic part of life) see:
                      > N.Goodrick Clarke, Giorgio Galli,Rene Alleau ,Jesaiah Ben Aharon
                      (who is not
                      > an historian but is also something more of that)
                      > Pauwel and Berger were able to mix truths and falsehoods., just
                      like our
                      > common friend Trevor (who made fun of you,) "whoever has
                      ears.........."
                      >
                      > > That is then how (including neo-Nazi's today) they next come to
                      > > construct their conspiracy theories.
                      >
                      >
                      > Oh sure I'm a conspiracy nuts.......
                      >
                      >
                      > You also in an earlier post
                      > > claimed a group of Englishman (sounds like Steiner's 'Fall of the
                      > > spirits of Darkness' that I referred to yesterday) where in fact
                      > > responsible for also WWI.
                      >
                      > If you are really interested about my insights , and not only to
                      dismiss
                      > them following your standpoint (that I find, excuse me, feeble;
                      having also
                      > discussed a giant lot in my early days with "SERIOUS" HISTORIANS,
                      UNABLE TO
                      > UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN PREJUDICES,THINKING THEMSELVES TO
                      BE "SCIENTIFIC") pls
                      > read also my post about Reichstag's arson incident. In my opinion
                      we are in
                      > front of a struggle of "men and gods"....
                      > If it resounds like Steiner's insights.... what better for me?
                      >
                      > A.
                      > >
                      > > Eric
                      > >
                      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "VALENTINA
                      BRUNETTI"
                      > > <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
                      > > > Pls pay attention!!
                      > > > Me and Gisele too, were talking foir the most part about pre-
                      war
                      > > years
                      > > > financial help.
                      > > > (It seems to me that you want to be "right" in any possible
                      > > way.....).
                      > > > Andrea..
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: epwijnantsresearch <epwijnantsresearch@y...>
                      > > > To: <anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 6:21 AM
                      > > > Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Moltke "initiated"
                      WWI ?
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > Most of the money that kept the Nazi War machine going they
                      took
                      > > > > from the Jews they killed, they where not 'given' that
                      > > by 'western
                      > > > > based financial institutions'. At least not if you ad up all
                      the
                      > > > > figures and not just pick and choose as you do below in a
                      > > distorted
                      > > > > manner.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Since I have been asked this in the case of Moltke starting
                      WWI
                      > > (and
                      > > > > listed about eight recent books), may I ask what reputeable
                      > > books of
                      > > > > a recent date have you read on the subject that you are
                      referring
                      > > > > to ?
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Eric
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Gisele
                      > > > > <Fioredortica@Y...> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > VALENTINA BRUNETTI <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
                      > > > > > Moreover, if we look at the stream of money that was given
                      to
                      > > Nazi
                      > > > > Party,
                      > > > > > especially between 1930 1nd 1933, from western-based
                      financial
                      > > > > > insititustions (Schroeder,Warburg,Brown-Harriman and so
                      on) we
                      > > can
                      > > > > see a
                      > > > > > "visible hand" that leads us directly to the
                      > > connection "Western
                      > > > > > Lodges-Finance Corporation" . (See Geminello Alvi "IL
                      secolo
                      > > > > Americano".
                      > > > > > Milan 1999)
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > ~Gisele uncloacks:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Yes. In 1930 / 31 Fritz Thyssen arranged credit of about
                      250-
                      > > > > 300,000 gold marks for R. Hess with the Dutch bank BHS. The
                      > > overall
                      > > > > total of Thyssen's political donations and loans to the
                      Nazis was
                      > > > > well over a million dollars. Major co-owner with Thyssen of
                      the
                      > > > > German Steel Trust (Germany largest industrial corporation
                      at the
                      > > > > time) was Friederich Flick, one of the leading financiers and
                      > > > > industrialists who in the 1930s contributed large sums to the
                      > > Nazi
                      > > > > Party - a member of the 'Circle of Friends' of Himler who
                      founded
                      > > > > the SS. At the Nuremberg Trials Flick was condemned to 7
                      years in
                      > > > > prison for his help in the build-up of the Nazi war machine
                      with
                      > > > > coal, steel and arms production - he served 3 - thanks to his
                      > > > > friends in New York and London, and died in the 1970s a
                      > > billionaire.
                      > > > > And who were his 'friends' and colleagues in the build-up to
                      > > WWII?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Back in 1920 Bert Walker (Bush's maternal grandad) and
                      Samuel
                      > > > > Pryor (Remington Arms / WWI major arms supplier to all
                      sides /
                      > > one
                      > > > > of the 'Merchants of Death' profiteers from WWI) arranged a
                      > > merger
                      > > > > between W.A. Harriman & Co. with J.P. Morgan's (London)
                      private
                      > > > > bank. This enabled Averell Harriman to become co-owner of the
                      > > > > Hamburg-Amerika Line (Shipping) which became a major
                      instrument
                      > > for
                      > > > > the manipulation and subversion of Germany. Negotiators in
                      the
                      > > > > Harriman take-over were: W. Cuno, Post WWI chief executive
                      of the
                      > > > > Hamburg-Amerika Line, financial contributor to the Nazi
                      Party; M.
                      > > > > Warburg, Hamburg-Amerika Line banker, Nazi financial
                      > > contributor; A.
                      > > > > Voegler, chief executive of the Thyssen - Flick German Steel
                      > > Trust,
                      > > > > director of BHS Bank in Rotterdam, director of Hamburg-
                      Amerika
                      > > Line,
                      > > > > helped organize the final Nazi leap into power; Baron von
                      > > Schroeder,
                      > > > > co-director of Thyssen's foundries with J. Groeniger
                      (Prescott
                      > > > > Bush's NY banking partner), treasurer of the support
                      organization
                      > > > > for the
                      > > > > > Nazi Party private armies.....
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > ---------------------------------
                      > > > > > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your
                      > > friends
                      > > > > today! Download Messenger Now
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >





                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • holderlin66
                      Today we have a chance to study Rumsfeld s Poetry along with other great idealists. Let us make some literary comparisons. After all the Inklings, Tolkien,
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jun 10, 2004
                        Today we have a chance to study Rumsfeld's Poetry along with other
                        great idealists. Let us make some literary comparisons. After all the
                        Inklings, Tolkien, Nietzsche, Steiner all had an affinity, along with
                        Noam Chomsky, to the Linguist or Logos trade. Study of the Word and
                        Logos is the Linguist Art. We might be able to do Eurythmy to some of
                        this. I know Christopher Fry and Poe have been honored with Eurythmy.
                        How about Rumsfeld? Why shouldn't Donny boy Rumsfeld also be a
                        qualified poet? We have to remember, at least I remind you, that
                        Nietzsche studied linguistics at Basel U. Ahriman likes souls who can
                        Word Smith with the Logos Masters. After All Ahriman took over the
                        pen of Linguist Lover, Nietzsche and penned some of his finest works.
                        Poetry can be fun.

                        http://slate.msn.com/id/2081042

                        And so Slate has compiled a collection of Rumsfeld's poems, bringing
                        them to a wider public for the first time. The poems that follow are
                        the exact words of the defense secretary, as taken from the official
                        transcripts on the Defense Department Web site.

                        The Unknown
                        As we know,
                        There are known knowns.
                        There are things we know we know.
                        We also know
                        There are known unknowns.
                        That is to say
                        We know there are some things
                        We do not know.
                        But there are also unknown unknowns,
                        The ones we don't know
                        We don't know.

                        —Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing

                        Glass Box
                        You know, it's the old glass box at the—
                        At the gas station,
                        Where you're using those little things
                        Trying to pick up the prize,
                        And you can't find it.
                        It's—

                        And it's all these arms are going down in there,
                        And so you keep dropping it
                        And picking it up again and moving it,
                        But—

                        Some of you are probably too young to remember those—
                        Those glass boxes,
                        But—

                        But they used to have them
                        At all the gas stations
                        When I was a kid.

                        —Dec. 6, 2001, Department of Defense news briefing

                        A Confession
                        Once in a while,
                        I'm standing here, doing something.
                        And I think,
                        "What in the world am I doing here?"
                        It's a big surprise.

                        —May 16, 2001, interview with the New York Times

                        Happenings
                        You're going to be told lots of things.
                        You get told things every day that don't happen.

                        It doesn't seem to bother people, they don't—
                        It's printed in the press.
                        The world thinks all these things happen.
                        They never happened.

                        Everyone's so eager to get the story
                        Before in fact the story's there
                        That the world is constantly being fed
                        Things that haven't happened.

                        All I can tell you is,
                        It hasn't happened.
                        It's going to happen.

                        —Feb. 28, 2003, Department of Defense briefing

                        The Digital Revolution
                        Oh my goodness gracious,
                        What you can buy off the Internet
                        In terms of overhead photography!

                        A trained ape can know an awful lot
                        Of what is going on in this world,
                        Just by punching on his mouse
                        For a relatively modest cost!

                        —June 9, 2001, following European trip

                        The Situation
                        Things will not be necessarily continuous.
                        The fact that they are something other than perfectly continuous
                        Ought not to be characterized as a pause.
                        There will be some things that people will see.
                        There will be some things that people won't see.
                        And life goes on.

                        —Oct. 12, 2001, Department of Defense news briefing

                        Clarity
                        I think what you'll find,
                        I think what you'll find is,
                        Whatever it is we do substantively,
                        There will be near-perfect clarity
                        As to what it is.

                        And it will be known,
                        And it will be known to the Congress,
                        And it will be known to you,
                        Probably before we decide it,
                        But it will be known.

                        —Feb. 28, 2003, Department of Defense briefing

                        zapdingo wrote:

                        ALONE

                        By Edgar Allan Poe

                        From childhood's hour I have not been
                        As others were; I have not seen
                        As others saw; I could not bring
                        My passions from a common spring.
                        From the same source I have not taken
                        My sorrow; I could not awaken
                        My heart to joy at the same tone;
                        And all I loved, I loved alone.
                        Then - in my childhood, in the dawn
                        Of a most stormy life - was drawn
                        From every depth of good and ill
                        The mystery which binds me still:
                        From the torrent, or the fountain,
                        From the red cliff of the mountain,
                        From the sun that round me rolled
                        In its autumn tint of gold,
                        From the lightning in the sky
                        As it passed me flying by,
                        From the thunder and the storm,
                        And the cloud that took the form
                        (When the rest of Heaven was blue)
                        Of a demon in my view.

                        Bradford comments;

                        I'll take Poe over Frost. No Nostalgia here. Heroic, like Christopher
                        Fry. Heroic for those called upon to face thought with courage and
                        follow trails of insight, or where the story leads, even if it leads
                        to the spiritual world and Poe's battle of addiction at the
                        threshold. What can we learn from the Opium insights of Poe or the
                        Mood of courage from Steiner? Could we compare the victims of the
                        Opium Wars, handicapped, soul damaged, or forced in fear from the
                        threshold of the spiritual world by nightmares and opium induced
                        dreams? How many hundreds of thousands wasted away in Opium dens?

                        The human heart can go the length of God.
                        Dark and cold we may be, but this is no winter now.
                        The frozen misery of centuries cracks, breaks, begins to move.
                        The thunder is the thunder of the floes, the thaw, the flood, the
                        upstart Spring.
                        Thank God our time is now, when wrong comes up to meet us everywhere.
                        Never to leave us, till we take,
                        The longest stride of soul men ever took
                        Affairs are now soul size,
                        The enterprise is exploration into God
                        But where are you making for?
                        It takes so many thousand years to wake,
                        But will you wake for pity's sake?
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