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R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Moltke "initiated" WWI ?

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  • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
    ... wild ... had ... started ... Andrea adds_ Moreover, if we look at the stream of money that was given to Nazi Party, especially between 1930 1nd 1933, from
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 2, 2004
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      ----- Original Message -----
      >
      > >Therefore Eric; Presenting your latest intellectual soul research is
      > >wonderful and I am proud of you. But don't come around here and start
      > >mouthing off on how you can push aside Ahrimanic forces as some petty
      > >rubbish connected to tarot cards and star gazing.
      >
      > A valid point which points to the difference between religious beliefs and
      > trance mediums on the one hand, and initiation science on the other. In
      > initiation science, Spiritual Science, ahrimanic and luciferic forces are
      > to be regarded in a vein similar to that of positive and negative
      > electricity. There was a time when electricity was science fiction and
      wild
      > fantasy to ordinary people, and talk about negative and positive charges
      > could be construed as an attempt to spread false religion, heresy. So when
      > anthroposophists talk about ahrimanic and luciferic forces, it may
      > justifiably be called heresy, but what needs to be kept in mind is that in
      > our day and age, heresy is not only legal, but a civil right, a human
      > right. Those who refuse to respect and honor this right are not primarily
      > offending the heretics, who are accustomed to scorn; they are selling
      > themselves short by refusing to learn about new ideas and new directions
      > with significant importance for the future.
      >
      > About the case at hand: I am not going to comment on a book I have not
      > read, which is written by a professor who is perhaps a specialist on 20th
      > century political and military history. I will only point out that history
      > professors don't always agree; their interpretations and conclusions
      > differ. And if what Eric has posted to this list is a true reflection of
      > David Fromkin's opinion, I would check a second and a third opinion before
      > venturing my own. You don't have to be a physician to ask for a second
      > opinion if the first expert does not convince you.
      >
      > I cannot find the article about Moltke and Steiner I was looking for, so
      > I've sent the word out, hoping someone may enlighten us about the matter.
      > What I do seem to recall from reading about this, is that Moltke did have
      > the information about how the Great War started, about all those
      > misunderstandings and blunders that led to the catastrophe. And someone
      had
      > the idea of publishing Moltke's information in order to clear Germany of
      > the charge of having started the war.
      >
      > There are mayn psople in the West who have been saying that Germany
      started
      > two world wars. That is a very strong accusation against one nation. They
      > did start the second world war by obeying and following Hitler, but I'm
      > inclined to believe that the catastrophe of the Nazi explosion and Hitler,
      > the curse of Germany, was a madness that resulted directly from the awful
      > injustice imposed upon Germany after the first war, based upon the false
      > accusation that Germany was responsible for that war.




      Andrea adds_
      Moreover, if we look at the stream of money that was given to Nazi Party,
      especially between 1930 1nd 1933, from western-based financial
      insititustions (Schroeder,Warburg,Brown-Harriman and so on) we can see a
      "visible hand" that leads us directly to the connection "Western
      Lodges-Finance Corporation" . (See Geminello Alvi "IL secolo Americano".
      Milan 1999)




      Fals accusations and
      > gross injustice can make people very irrational when pushed to the limit.
      > Just look at the Palestinians, whose suffering under the heel of a brutal
      > occupant for half a century has given birth to suicide missions in crowded
      > shopping malls. That's insanity that's becoming a cultural tradition. It
      is
      > our responsibility, therefore, to recognize injustice and oppression
      > wherever it is taking place. And if the curse that hit Germany in the
      > 1930's from within was a direct result of oppression and injustice from
      the
      > international community after the first war based upon false accusations,
      > it is our sacred duty to recognize the true relationship between cause an
      d
      > effect in history. This is something that cannot be taken lightly, and
      > history cannot be revised through the publication of one book alone,
      > regardless of how accredited the author may be.
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      >
      > Tarjei
      > http://uncletaz.com/
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Gisele
      VALENTINA BRUNETTI wrote: Moreover, if we look at the stream of money that was given to Nazi Party, especially between 1930 1nd 1933, from
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 7, 2004
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        VALENTINA BRUNETTI <okcgbr@...> wrote:

        Moreover, if we look at the stream of money that was given to Nazi Party,
        especially between 1930 1nd 1933, from western-based financial
        insititustions (Schroeder,Warburg,Brown-Harriman and so on) we can see a
        "visible hand" that leads us directly to the connection "Western
        Lodges-Finance Corporation" . (See Geminello Alvi "IL secolo Americano".
        Milan 1999)




        ~Gisele uncloacks:

        Yes. In 1930 / 31 Fritz Thyssen arranged credit of about 250-300,000 gold marks for R. Hess with the Dutch bank BHS. The overall total of Thyssen's political donations and loans to the Nazis was well over a million dollars. Major co-owner with Thyssen of the German Steel Trust (Germany largest industrial corporation at the time) was Friederich Flick, one of the leading financiers and industrialists who in the 1930s contributed large sums to the Nazi Party - a member of the 'Circle of Friends' of Himler who founded the SS. At the Nuremberg Trials Flick was condemned to 7 years in prison for his help in the build-up of the Nazi war machine with coal, steel and arms production - he served 3 - thanks to his friends in New York and London, and died in the 1970s a billionaire. And who were his 'friends' and colleagues in the build-up to WWII?

        Back in 1920 Bert Walker (Bush's maternal grandad) and Samuel Pryor (Remington Arms / WWI major arms supplier to all sides / one of the 'Merchants of Death' profiteers from WWI) arranged a merger between W.A. Harriman & Co. with J.P. Morgan's (London) private bank. This enabled Averell Harriman to become co-owner of the Hamburg-Amerika Line (Shipping) which became a major instrument for the manipulation and subversion of Germany. Negotiators in the Harriman take-over were: W. Cuno, Post WWI chief executive of the Hamburg-Amerika Line, financial contributor to the Nazi Party; M. Warburg, Hamburg-Amerika Line banker, Nazi financial contributor; A. Voegler, chief executive of the Thyssen - Flick German Steel Trust, director of BHS Bank in Rotterdam, director of Hamburg-Amerika Line, helped organize the final Nazi leap into power; Baron von Schroeder, co-director of Thyssen's foundries with J. Groeniger (Prescott Bush's NY banking partner), treasurer of the support organization for the Nazi Party private armies.....

         

         


        Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now
      • epwijnantsresearch
        Most of the money that kept the Nazi War machine going they took from the Jews they killed, they where not given that by western based financial
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 7, 2004
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          Most of the money that kept the Nazi War machine going they took
          from the Jews they killed, they where not 'given' that by 'western
          based financial institutions'. At least not if you ad up all the
          figures and not just pick and choose as you do below in a distorted
          manner.

          Since I have been asked this in the case of Moltke starting WWI (and
          listed about eight recent books), may I ask what reputeable books of
          a recent date have you read on the subject that you are referring
          to ?


          Eric

          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Gisele
          <Fioredortica@Y...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > VALENTINA BRUNETTI <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
          > Moreover, if we look at the stream of money that was given to Nazi
          Party,
          > especially between 1930 1nd 1933, from western-based financial
          > insititustions (Schroeder,Warburg,Brown-Harriman and so on) we can
          see a
          > "visible hand" that leads us directly to the connection "Western
          > Lodges-Finance Corporation" . (See Geminello Alvi "IL secolo
          Americano".
          > Milan 1999)
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ~Gisele uncloacks:
          >
          > Yes. In 1930 / 31 Fritz Thyssen arranged credit of about 250-
          300,000 gold marks for R. Hess with the Dutch bank BHS. The overall
          total of Thyssen's political donations and loans to the Nazis was
          well over a million dollars. Major co-owner with Thyssen of the
          German Steel Trust (Germany largest industrial corporation at the
          time) was Friederich Flick, one of the leading financiers and
          industrialists who in the 1930s contributed large sums to the Nazi
          Party - a member of the 'Circle of Friends' of Himler who founded
          the SS. At the Nuremberg Trials Flick was condemned to 7 years in
          prison for his help in the build-up of the Nazi war machine with
          coal, steel and arms production - he served 3 - thanks to his
          friends in New York and London, and died in the 1970s a billionaire.
          And who were his 'friends' and colleagues in the build-up to WWII?
          >
          > Back in 1920 Bert Walker (Bush's maternal grandad) and Samuel
          Pryor (Remington Arms / WWI major arms supplier to all sides / one
          of the 'Merchants of Death' profiteers from WWI) arranged a merger
          between W.A. Harriman & Co. with J.P. Morgan's (London) private
          bank. This enabled Averell Harriman to become co-owner of the
          Hamburg-Amerika Line (Shipping) which became a major instrument for
          the manipulation and subversion of Germany. Negotiators in the
          Harriman take-over were: W. Cuno, Post WWI chief executive of the
          Hamburg-Amerika Line, financial contributor to the Nazi Party; M.
          Warburg, Hamburg-Amerika Line banker, Nazi financial contributor; A.
          Voegler, chief executive of the Thyssen - Flick German Steel Trust,
          director of BHS Bank in Rotterdam, director of Hamburg-Amerika Line,
          helped organize the final Nazi leap into power; Baron von Schroeder,
          co-director of Thyssen's foundries with J. Groeniger (Prescott
          Bush's NY banking partner), treasurer of the support organization
          for the
          > Nazi Party private armies.....
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends
          today! Download Messenger Now
        • epwijnantsresearch
          Some clarification regarding my statement to you about the later Nazi money source(the earlier was predominantly White Russian); Shortly before Hitler was to
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 8, 2004
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            Some clarification regarding my statement to you about the later
            Nazi money source(the earlier was predominantly White Russian);

            Shortly before Hitler was to invade Poland and start the war the
            Nazi Governement put in to law The Decree of Eliminating Jews from
            German Economic Life,November 12, 1938.

            Here Jews where practically told to `buy' their lives by freely
            giving up everything they owned to the German State coffers. Their
            money and property's, the cessation of all Jewish business activity,
            their enterprises as well as any land, stocks, jewels and artworks.

            (To drive the point home, the order also forbade Jews to drive or
            have cars, to ride in trains, to go to theaters or cinemas. They
            were banned from city districts containing government offices , were
            officially banned from all concert and conference halls, museums,
            fairs, exhibit halls, and sports facilities-especially public
            swimming pools. Including a special order from Heydrich's office
            prohibited them from owning any carrier pigeons.)

            By December 10, 1938, Goering moved to ensure that all these
            illicit profits from "dejudaization" flowed directly into Hitler's
            coffers. Between 10 and 12 billion Reichsmark ($2.5 and $3 billion
            USD, THAT time) flew in the war machine account of Herrn Adolf.

            Shure he had money to pay out to a major armee. He didn't need
            American donations, although money might have been funneled various
            ways.

            But the Nazi Governement Hitlers inner group, knew that would not
            be enough to keep the war maschine going for an extreme long period
            of time (remember the Nazi's held out four years like this), so the
            next step wass that in each country they invaded they did exactly
            the same. Plus in Poland and the Ukraine as early as 1939-41 they
            already went over to the next step the total murder of all Jewish
            men, women, and children.

            All civillian Jewish men, wome, and children where systematicly
            herded together and gunned down using a special stacking method
            allowing for more people to be killed in as short as possible time.
            (For details see " The Gold Train" by Ronald Zweig )

            That wass long before the Wannsee meeting when the armee finally was
            exhausted from all the extra shooting all the time so Hitler forced
            a group of scientists and tecknocrats to come up with a gaschamber
            system, where not Germans but Jews themselves could be forced to do
            all the work. Walking around completely naked, they where forched
            to gather the death bodies of the group that was gassed before them
            and burn them, and next their own bodies would be picked up by the
            next group of naked civilians and so on. Non-stop for months yes
            years at a time. The basic system however remained the same from
            the one started just before the WWII, and remained so until the end.


            For example as soon they invaded the Netherlands and France
            Reichsleiter Rosenberg's (ERR) emediate targets first were the most
            prestigious Jewishowned art collections. Paintings and sculptures.
            One example in France the belonging of the Rothschild family,
            capered by Rosenberg, alone already were estimated at more than 2
            billion francs that time. Next Jewish families where shaken down to
            force them to turn over their stocks, gold, and all precious
            artworks were simply confiscated.

            In late April 2000, after the Swiss bankers where asked to come up
            with some account ballances, the French government suddenly chocked
            up a 3,300-page report proving a minimum of $1.3 billiion, had
            indeed been `Aryanized' the same as was done in 1938 Germany. And
            this is just the tip of the iceberg, other Governements haven't even
            started. For example only this year 2004 the Belgium Governement
            finally caved in and issued a `permission' for researchers
            to `start' researching the WWII Governement archives. So the same
            what happened in France in 2000 is due to happen in Belgium in
            probably not to many years.

            The last three paragraphs are extracted froma a book I have in
            front of me (but there are more); "Pack of Thiefes; How Hitler And
            Europe Plunderred the Jews and committed the Greatest Theft in
            History" by Richard Chesnoff.
            Eric

            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "epwijnantsresearch"
            <epwijnantsresearch@y...> wrote:
            > Most of the money that kept the Nazi War machine going they took
            > from the Jews they killed, they where not 'given' that by 'western
            > based financial institutions'. At least not if you ad up all the
            > figures and not just pick and choose as you do below in a
            distorted
            > manner.
            >
            > Since I have been asked this in the case of Moltke starting WWI
            (and
            > listed about eight recent books), may I ask what reputeable books
            of
            > a recent date have you read on the subject that you are referring
            > to ?
            >
            >
            > Eric
            >
            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Gisele
            > <Fioredortica@Y...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > VALENTINA BRUNETTI <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
            > > Moreover, if we look at the stream of money that was given to
            Nazi
            > Party,
            > > especially between 1930 1nd 1933, from western-based financial
            > > insititustions (Schroeder,Warburg,Brown-Harriman and so on) we
            can
            > see a
            > > "visible hand" that leads us directly to the connection "Western
            > > Lodges-Finance Corporation" . (See Geminello Alvi "IL secolo
            > Americano".
            > > Milan 1999)
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ~Gisele uncloacks:
            > >
            > > Yes. In 1930 / 31 Fritz Thyssen arranged credit of about 250-
            > 300,000 gold marks for R. Hess with the Dutch bank BHS. The
            overall
            > total of Thyssen's political donations and loans to the Nazis was
            > well over a million dollars. Major co-owner with Thyssen of the
            > German Steel Trust (Germany largest industrial corporation at the
            > time) was Friederich Flick, one of the leading financiers and
            > industrialists who in the 1930s contributed large sums to the Nazi
            > Party - a member of the 'Circle of Friends' of Himler who founded
            > the SS. At the Nuremberg Trials Flick was condemned to 7 years in
            > prison for his help in the build-up of the Nazi war machine with
            > coal, steel and arms production - he served 3 - thanks to his
            > friends in New York and London, and died in the 1970s a
            billionaire.
            > And who were his 'friends' and colleagues in the build-up to WWII?
            > >
            > > Back in 1920 Bert Walker (Bush's maternal grandad) and Samuel
            > Pryor (Remington Arms / WWI major arms supplier to all sides / one
            > of the 'Merchants of Death' profiteers from WWI) arranged a merger
            > between W.A. Harriman & Co. with J.P. Morgan's (London) private
            > bank. This enabled Averell Harriman to become co-owner of the
            > Hamburg-Amerika Line (Shipping) which became a major instrument
            for
            > the manipulation and subversion of Germany. Negotiators in the
            > Harriman take-over were: W. Cuno, Post WWI chief executive of the
            > Hamburg-Amerika Line, financial contributor to the Nazi Party; M.
            > Warburg, Hamburg-Amerika Line banker, Nazi financial contributor;
            A.
            > Voegler, chief executive of the Thyssen - Flick German Steel
            Trust,
            > director of BHS Bank in Rotterdam, director of Hamburg-Amerika
            Line,
            > helped organize the final Nazi leap into power; Baron von
            Schroeder,
            > co-director of Thyssen's foundries with J. Groeniger (Prescott
            > Bush's NY banking partner), treasurer of the support organization
            > for the
            > > Nazi Party private armies.....
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends
            > today! Download Messenger Now
          • epwijnantsresearch
            Some clarification regarding my statement to you about the later Nazi money source(the earlier was predominantly White Russian); Shortly before Hitler was to
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 8, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Some clarification regarding my statement to you about the later
              Nazi money source(the earlier was predominantly White Russian);

              Shortly before Hitler was to invade Poland and start the war the
              Nazi Governement put in to law The Decree of Eliminating Jews from
              German Economic Life,November 12, 1938.

              Here Jews where practically told to `buy' their lives by freely
              giving up everything they owned to the German State coffers. Their
              money and property's, the cessation of all Jewish business activity,
              their enterprises as well as any land, stocks, jewels and artworks.

              (To drive the point home, the order also forbade Jews to drive or
              have cars, to ride in trains, to go to theaters or cinemas. They
              were banned from city districts containing government offices , were
              officially banned from all concert and conference halls, museums,
              fairs, exhibit halls, and sports facilities-especially public
              swimming pools. Including a special order from Heydrich's office
              prohibited them from owning any carrier pigeons.)

              By December 10, 1938, Goering moved to ensure that all these
              illicit profits from "dejudaization" flowed directly into Hitler's
              coffers. Between 10 and 12 billion Reichsmark ($2.5 and $3 billion
              USD, THAT time) flew in the war machine account of Herrn Adolf.

              Shure he had money to pay out to a major armee. He didn't need
              American donations, although money might have been funneled various
              ways.

              But the Nazi Governement Hitlers inner group, knew that would not
              be enough to keep the war maschine going for an extreme long period
              of time (remember the Nazi's held out four years like this), so the
              next step wass that in each country they invaded they did exactly
              the same. Plus in Poland and the Ukraine as early as 1939-41 they
              already went over to the next step the total murder of all Jewish
              men, women, and children.

              All civillian Jewish men, wome, and children where systematicly
              herded together and gunned down using a special stacking method
              allowing for more people to be killed in as short as possible time.
              (For details see " The Gold Train" by Ronald Zweig )

              That wass long before the Wannsee meeting when the armee finally was
              exhausted from all the extra shooting all the time so Hitler forced
              a group of scientists and tecknocrats to come up with a gaschamber
              system, where not Germans but Jews themselves could be forced to do
              all the work. Walking around completely naked, they where forched
              to gather the death bodies of the group that was gassed before them
              and burn them, and next their own bodies would be picked up by the
              next group of naked civilians and so on. Non-stop for months yes
              years at a time. The basic system however remained the same from
              the one started just before the WWII, and remained so until the end.


              For example as soon they invaded the Netherlands and France
              Reichsleiter Rosenberg's (ERR) emediate targets first were the most
              prestigious Jewishowned art collections. Paintings and sculptures.
              One example in France the belonging of the Rothschild family,
              capered by Rosenberg, alone already were estimated at more than 2
              billion francs that time. Next Jewish families where shaken down to
              force them to turn over their stocks, gold, and all precious
              artworks were simply confiscated.

              In late April 2000, after the Swiss bankers where asked to come up
              with some account ballances, the French government suddenly chocked
              up a 3,300-page report proving a minimum of $1.3 billiion, had
              indeed been `Aryanized' the same as was done in 1938 Germany. And
              this is just the tip of the iceberg, other Governements haven't even
              started. For example only this year 2004 the Belgium Governement
              finally caved in and issued a `permission' for researchers
              to `start' researching the WWII Governement archives. So the same
              what happened in France in 2000 is due to happen in Belgium in
              probably not to many years.

              The last three paragraphs are extracted froma a book I have in
              front of me (but there are more); "Pack of Thiefes; How Hitler And
              Europe Plunderred the Jews and committed the Greatest Theft in
              History" by Richard Chesnoff.
              Eric

              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "epwijnantsresearch"
              <epwijnantsresearch@y...> wrote:
              > Most of the money that kept the Nazi War machine going they took
              > from the Jews they killed, they where not 'given' that by 'western
              > based financial institutions'. At least not if you ad up all the
              > figures and not just pick and choose as you do below in a
              distorted
              > manner.
              >
              > Since I have been asked this in the case of Moltke starting WWI
              (and
              > listed about eight recent books), may I ask what reputeable books
              of
              > a recent date have you read on the subject that you are referring
              > to ?
              >
              >
              > Eric
              >
              > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Gisele
              > <Fioredortica@Y...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > VALENTINA BRUNETTI <okcgbr@t...> wrote:
              > > Moreover, if we look at the stream of money that was given to
              Nazi
              > Party,
              > > especially between 1930 1nd 1933, from western-based financial
              > > insititustions (Schroeder,Warburg,Brown-Harriman and so on) we
              can
              > see a
              > > "visible hand" that leads us directly to the connection "Western
              > > Lodges-Finance Corporation" . (See Geminello Alvi "IL secolo
              > Americano".
              > > Milan 1999)
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ~Gisele uncloacks:
              > >
              > > Yes. In 1930 / 31 Fritz Thyssen arranged credit of about 250-
              > 300,000 gold marks for R. Hess with the Dutch bank BHS. The
              overall
              > total of Thyssen's political donations and loans to the Nazis was
              > well over a million dollars. Major co-owner with Thyssen of the
              > German Steel Trust (Germany largest industrial corporation at the
              > time) was Friederich Flick, one of the leading financiers and
              > industrialists who in the 1930s contributed large sums to the Nazi
              > Party - a member of the 'Circle of Friends' of Himler who founded
              > the SS. At the Nuremberg Trials Flick was condemned to 7 years in
              > prison for his help in the build-up of the Nazi war machine with
              > coal, steel and arms production - he served 3 - thanks to his
              > friends in New York and London, and died in the 1970s a
              billionaire.
              > And who were his 'friends' and colleagues in the build-up to WWII?
              > >
              > > Back in 1920 Bert Walker (Bush's maternal grandad) and Samuel
              > Pryor (Remington Arms / WWI major arms supplier to all sides / one
              > of the 'Merchants of Death' profiteers from WWI) arranged a merger
              > between W.A. Harriman & Co. with J.P. Morgan's (London) private
              > bank. This enabled Averell Harriman to become co-owner of the
              > Hamburg-Amerika Line (Shipping) which became a major instrument
              for
              > the manipulation and subversion of Germany. Negotiators in the
              > Harriman take-over were: W. Cuno, Post WWI chief executive of the
              > Hamburg-Amerika Line, financial contributor to the Nazi Party; M.
              > Warburg, Hamburg-Amerika Line banker, Nazi financial contributor;
              A.
              > Voegler, chief executive of the Thyssen - Flick German Steel
              Trust,
              > director of BHS Bank in Rotterdam, director of Hamburg-Amerika
              Line,
              > helped organize the final Nazi leap into power; Baron von
              Schroeder,
              > co-director of Thyssen's foundries with J. Groeniger (Prescott
              > Bush's NY banking partner), treasurer of the support organization
              > for the
              > > Nazi Party private armies.....
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends
              > today! Download Messenger Now
            • Gisele
              epwijnantsresearch wrote: Most of the money that kept the Nazi War machine going they took from the Jews they killed, they
              Message 6 of 7 , Jun 10, 2004
              • 0 Attachment


                epwijnantsresearch <epwijnantsresearch@...> wrote:

                Most of the money that kept the Nazi War machine going they took
                from the Jews they killed, they where not 'given' that by 'western
                based financial institutions'. At least not if you ad up all the
                figures and not just pick and choose as you do below in a distorted
                manner.

                ~~~~Hello Eric! Are you a historian? How did you become a professional historical researcher? As far as I am concerned, I read History at the Soas, University of London, where I got 83% in my final dissertation (about "The Secret History" of Genghis Khan).

                Since I have been asked this in the case of Moltke starting WWI (and
                listed about eight recent books), may I ask what reputeable books of
                a recent date have you read on the subject that you are referring
                to ?


                ~~~~I will give you the references below, but first I need to ask you: how do you judge if a book is reputable or not? Do you ask the Goetheanum? And why should the books be of recent date? As a serious thorough researcher, you must be aware that there are primary sources and  secondary ones, of course primary sources are more REPUTABLE, and since we're talking about the first part of the XXth century, recent date books can only be secondary sources, and to be REPUTABLE they must again go back to the originary sources.....

                 

                >
                > Yes. In 1930 / 31 Fritz Thyssen arranged credit of about 250-
                300,000 gold marks for R. Hess with the Dutch bank BHS. The overall
                total of Thyssen's political donations and loans to the Nazis was
                well over a million dollars.

                ~~~~REF: Fritz Thyssen: "I Paid Hitler", 1941, reprinted in (Port Washington, N.Y. - Kennikat Press, 1972), p.133. Thyssen says his contributions BEGAN with 100,000 marks given in October 1923, for Hitler's attempted 'putsch' against the constitutional government.                                                  His role as leading early backer of Hitler's grab for power in Germany had been noted by US diplomats in Berlin in 1932: ~~~~REF:Confidential Memorandum from U.S. embassy, Berlin, to the U.S. Secretary of State, April 20, 1932, on microfilm in "Confidential Reports of U.S. State Dept., 1930s Germany", at major U.S. libraries.                                           

                ~~~~Thyssen told Allied interrogators after the war about some of his financial support for the Nazi Party: "In 1930 or 1931.... I told Hess... I would arrange a credit for him with a Dutch bank in Rotterdam the BHS (Harriman - Bush affiliate, MY NOTE). I arranged the credit... he would pay it back in three years... I chose a Dutch bank because I did not want to be mixed up with German banks in my position, and because I thought it was better to do business with a Dutch bank, and I thought I would have the Nazis a little more in my hands... The credit was about 250-300,000 (gold) marks - about the sum I had given before. The loan has been repaid in part to the Dutch bank, but I think some money is still owing on it..."     REF: Interrogation of Fritz Thyssen, EF/ME/1 of Sept 4, 1945 in U.S. Control Council records, photostat on page 167 in Anthony Sutton:"An Introduction to the Order" (Billings,, Mt.: Liberty House Press, 1986).

                 Major co-owner with Thyssen of the
                German Steel Trust (Germany largest industrial corporation at the
                time) was Friederich Flick, one of the leading financiers and
                industrialists who in the 1930s contributed large sums to the Nazi
                Party - a member of the 'Circle of Friends' of Himler who founded  ~~~~MY MISTAKE, should read 'funded'~~~~
                the SS.

                ~~~~In preparation for the war crimes tribunal at Nuremberg, the U.S. government said that Flick was "one of leading financiers and industrialists who from 1932 contributed large sums to the Nazi Party.... member of 'Circle of Friends' of Himmler who contributed large sums to the SS"   REF: "Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - Supplement B", by the Office of the United States Chief of Counsel for Prosecution of Axis Criminality, United States Government Printing Office (Washington: 1948) pp. 1597, 1686.

                 

                ~~~~ At the Nuremberg Trials Flick was condemned to 7 years in
                prison for his help in the build-up of the Nazi war machine with
                coal, steel and arms production - he served 3 - thanks to his
                friends in New York and London, and died in the 1970s a billionaire.
                And who were his 'friends' and colleagues in the build-up to WWII?
                >
                > Back in 1920 Bert Walker (Bush's maternal grandad) and Samuel
                Pryor (Remington Arms / WWI major arms supplier to all sides / one
                of the 'Merchants of Death' profiteers from WWI)

                ~~~~Percy Rockefeller and Samuel Pryor's Remington Arms supplied machine guns and Colt automatic pistols; millions of rifles to Czarist Russia; over half of the small-arms ammunition used by the Anglo-American allies in WWI; and 69% of the rifles used by the U.S. in that conflict. REF: Alden Hatch: "Remington Arms: An American History" 1956, copyright by the Remington Arms Co., pp.224-25.

                ~~~~Hearings in 1934 by the committee of U.S. Senator Gerald Nye attacked the "Merchants of Death" - war profiteers such as Remington Arms and the British Vickers company - whose salesmen had manipulated many nations into wars, and then supplied all sides with the weapons to fight them.

                ~~~~The U.S. Senate arms-traffic investigators probed Remington after it was joined in a cartel agreement on explosives to the Nazi firm I.G. Farben. Looking at the period leading up to Hitler's seizure of power, the Senators found that "German political associations, like the Nazi and others, are nearly all armed with American guns...Arms of all kinds coming from America are transhipped in the Scheldt to river barges before the vessels arrive in Antwerp.... The Hitlerists and Communists are presumed to get arms in this manner....REF: U.S. Senate "Nye Committee" hearings, Sept 14, 1934, pp. 1197-98, extracts from letters of Col. William N. Taylor, dated June 27, 1932 and Jan 9, 1933

                 arranged a merger
                between W.A. Harriman & Co. with J.P. Morgan's (London) private
                bank. This enabled Averell Harriman to become co-owner of the
                Hamburg-Amerika Line (Shipping)

                ~~~~REF: St. Louis Globe-Democrat, Oct 12 1920, p.1: "Ex-St.Louisian Forms Giant Ship Merger" - "G. H. Walker is Moving Power Behind Harriman-Morton Shipping Combine..."

                 which became a major instrument for
                the manipulation and subversion of Germany.

                ~~~~According to testimony of officials of the companies before Congress in 1934, a supervisor from the Nazi Labor Front rode with every ship of the Hamburg-Amerika Line; employees of the New York offices were directly organized into the Nazi Labor Front organization; Hamburg-Amerika provided free passage to individuals going abroad for Nazi propaganda purposes; and the line subsidized pro-Nazi newspapers in the U.S.A., as it had done in Germany against the constitutional German government. REF: "Investigation of Nazi Propaganda Activities and Investigation of Certain Other Propaganda Activities": Public Hearings before A Subcommittee of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities, United States House of Representatives, Seventy Third Congress, New York City, July 9-12, 1934 --Hearings No. 73-NY-7 (Washington: US Govt. Printing Office, 1934). See testimony of Capt. Frederick C. Mensing, John Schroeder, Paul von Lilienfeld-Toal, and summaries by Committee members.

                ~~~~Two months before moving against Prescott Bush's Union Banking Corporation, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of all property of the Hamburg American Line and North German Lloyd, under the Trading with the Enemy Act - REF: Office of Alien Property Custodian, Vesting Order No. 126. Signed by Leo T. Crowley, Alien Property Custodian, executed August 28, 1942 F.R. Doc. 42-8774; Filed September 4, 1942, 10:55 A.M.; 7 F.R. 7061 (No 176, Sept 5, 1942, Memorandum to the Executive Committee of the Office of Alien Property Custodian, stamped CONFIDENTIAL, from the Division of Investigation and Research, Homer Jones, Chief. Now declassified in U.S. National Archives, Suitland, Maryland annex. See Record Group 131, Alien Property Custodian, investigative reports, in file box relating to Vesting Order No. 126.

                 Negotiators in the
                Harriman take-over were: W. Cuno, Post WWI chief executive of the
                Hamburg-Amerika Line, financial contributor to the Nazi Party;

                ~~~~Cuno was later exposed by Walter Funk, Third Reich Press Chief and Under Secretary of Propaganda, in Funk's postwar jail cell at Nuremberg; but Cuno had died just as Hitler was taking power. REF: William L. Shirer, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich "(New York: Simon and Schuster, 1960), p.144. "Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression-Supplement B, op. cit., p. 1688 

                M.
                Warburg, Hamburg-Amerika Line banker, Nazi financial contributor; REF: David Farrer: "The Warburgs: The Story of a Family" (New York, Stein & Day, 1975)

                 A.
                Voegler, chief executive of the Thyssen - Flick German Steel Trust,
                director of BHS Bank in Rotterdam, director of Hamburg-Amerika Line,
                helped organize the final Nazi leap into power; ~~~~REF:"Elimination of German Resources for War", Hearings Before a Subcommittee of the Committee of Military Affairs, United States Senate, Seventy-Ninth Congress, Part 5, Testimony of the Treasury Dept, July 2, 1945, pp.881-82

                 Baron von Schroeder,
                co-director of Thyssen's foundries with J. Groeniger (Prescott
                Bush's NY banking partner), treasurer of the support organization
                for the
                > Nazi Party private armies.....
                >
                > ~~~~REF: Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression-Supplement B, op. cit., pp.1178, 1453-54, 1597, 1599.
                >
                >
                > ~~~~Happy now?

                Gisele
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
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              • zapdingo
                I ve been going through some old mail and came across this one. I wonder if I never got the message where Mr. Epwijnantsresearch addresses the information
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 1, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  I've been going through some old mail and came across this one. I wonder if I never got the message where Mr. Epwijnantsresearch addresses the  information presented by Gisele in this outstanding e-mail, since I don't remember seeing his answer at all. He seemed so intent in the pursuit of his arguments that he certainly would have commented on it. Wouldn't he?
                  Bryan
                   
                  from the Jews they killed, they where not 'given' that by 'western
                  based financial institutions'. At least not if you ad up all the
                  figures and not just pick and choose as you do below in a distorted
                  manner.
                  ~~~~Hello Eric! Are you a historian? How did you become a professional historical researcher? As far as I am concerned, I read History at the Soas, University of London, where I got 83% in my final dissertation (about "The Secret History" of Genghis Khan).
                  Since I have been asked this in the case of Moltke starting WWI (and
                  listed about eight recent books), may I ask what reputeable books of
                  a recent date have you read on the subject that you are referring
                  to ?

                  ~~~~I will give you the references below, but first I need to ask you: how do you judge if a book is reputable or not? Do you ask the Goetheanum? And why should the books be of recent date? As a serious thorough researcher, you must be aware that there are primary sources and  secondary ones, of course primary sources are more REPUTABLE, and since we're talking about the first part of the XXth century, recent date books can only be secondary sources, and to be REPUTABLE they must again go back to the originary sources.....
                   
                  >
                  > Yes. In 1930 / 31 Fritz Thyssen arranged credit of about 250-
                  300,000 gold marks for R. Hess with the Dutch bank BHS. The overall
                  total of Thyssen's political donations and loans to the Nazis was
                  well over a million dollars.
                  ~~~~REF: Fritz Thyssen: "I Paid Hitler", 1941, reprinted in (Port Washington, N.Y. - Kennikat Press, 1972), p.133. Thyssen says his contributions BEGAN with 100,000 marks given in October 1923, for Hitler's attempted 'putsch' against the constitutional government.                                                  His role as leading early backer of Hitler's grab for power in Germany had been noted by US diplomats in Berlin in 1932: ~~~~REF:Confidential Memorandum from U.S. embassy, Berlin, to the U.S. Secretary of State, April 20, 1932, on microfilm in "Confidential Reports of U.S. State Dept., 1930s Germany", at major U.S. libraries.                                          
                  ~~~~Thyssen told Allied interrogators after the war about some of his financial support for the Nazi Party: "In 1930 or 1931.... I told Hess... I would arrange a credit for him with a Dutch bank in Rotterdam the BHS (Harriman - Bush affiliate, MY NOTE). I arranged the credit... he would pay it back in three years... I chose a Dutch bank because I did not want to be mixed up with German banks in my position, and because I thought it was better to do business with a Dutch bank, and I thought I would have the Nazis a little more in my hands... The credit was about 250-300,000 (gold) marks - about the sum I had given before. The loan has been repaid in part to the Dutch bank, but I think some money is still owing on it..."     REF: Interrogation of Fritz Thyssen, EF/ME/1 of Sept 4, 1945 in U.S. Control Council records, photostat on page 167 in Anthony Sutton:"An Introduction to the Order" (Billings,, Mt.: Liberty House Press, 1986).
                   Major co-owner with Thyssen of the
                  German Steel Trust (Germany largest industrial corporation at the
                  time) was Friederich Flick, one of the leading financiers and
                  industrialists who in the 1930s contributed large sums to the Nazi
                  Party - a member of the 'Circle of Friends' of Himler who founded  ~~~~MY MISTAKE, should read 'funded'~~~~
                  the SS.
                  ~~~~In preparation for the war crimes tribunal at Nuremberg, the U.S. government said that Flick was "one of leading financiers and industrialists who from 1932 contributed large sums to the Nazi Party.... member of 'Circle of Friends' of Himmler who contributed large sums to the SS"   REF: "Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - Supplement B", by the Office of the United States Chief of Counsel for Prosecution of Axis Criminality, United States Government Printing Office (Washington: 1948) pp. 1597, 1686.
                   
                  ~~~~ At the Nuremberg Trials Flick was condemned to 7 years in
                  prison for his help in the build-up of the Nazi war machine with
                  coal, steel and arms production - he served 3 - thanks to his
                  friends in New York and London, and died in the 1970s a billionaire.
                  And who were his 'friends' and colleagues in the build-up to WWII?
                  >
                  > Back in 1920 Bert Walker (Bush's maternal grandad) and Samuel
                  Pryor (Remington Arms / WWI major arms supplier to all sides / one
                  of the 'Merchants of Death' profiteers from WWI)
                  ~~~~Percy Rockefeller and Samuel Pryor's Remington Arms supplied machine guns and Colt automatic pistols; millions of rifles to Czarist Russia; over half of the small-arms ammunition used by the Anglo-American allies in WWI; and 69% of the rifles used by the U.S. in that conflict. REF: Alden Hatch: "Remington Arms: An American History" 1956, copyright by the Remington Arms Co., pp.224-25.
                  ~~~~Hearings in 1934 by the committee of U.S. Senator Gerald Nye attacked the "Merchants of Death" - war profiteers such as Remington Arms and the British Vickers company - whose salesmen had manipulated many nations into wars, and then supplied all sides with the weapons to fight them.
                  ~~~~The U.S. Senate arms-traffic investigators probed Remington after it was joined in a cartel agreement on explosives to the Nazi firm I.G. Farben. Looking at the period leading up to Hitler's seizure of power, the Senators found that "German political associations, like the Nazi and others, are nearly all armed with American guns...Arms of all kinds coming from America are transhipped in the Scheldt to river barges before the vessels arrive in Antwerp.... The Hitlerists and Communists are presumed to get arms in this manner....REF: U.S. Senate "Nye Committee" hearings, Sept 14, 1934, pp. 1197-98, extracts from letters of Col. William N. Taylor, dated June 27, 1932 and Jan 9, 1933
                   arranged a merger
                  between W.A. Harriman & Co. with J.P. Morgan's (London) private
                  bank. This enabled Averell Harriman to become co-owner of the
                  Hamburg-Amerika Line (Shipping)
                  ~~~~REF: St. Louis Globe-Democrat, Oct 12 1920, p.1: "Ex-St.Louisian Forms Giant Ship Merger" - "G. H. Walker is Moving Power Behind Harriman-Morton Shipping Combine..."
                   which became a major instrument for
                  the manipulation and subversion of Germany.
                  ~~~~According to testimony of officials of the companies before Congress in 1934, a supervisor from the Nazi Labor Front rode with every ship of the Hamburg-Amerika Line; employees of the New York offices were directly organized into the Nazi Labor Front organization; Hamburg-Amerika provided free passage to individuals going abroad for Nazi propaganda purposes; and the line subsidized pro-Nazi newspapers in the U.S.A., as it had done in Germany against the constitutional German government. REF: "Investigation of Nazi Propaganda Activities and Investigation of Certain Other Propaganda Activities": Public Hearings before A Subcommittee of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities, United States House of Representatives, Seventy Third Congress, New York City, July 9-12, 1934 --Hearings No. 73-NY-7 (Washington: US Govt. Printing Office, 1934). See testimony of Capt. Frederick C. Mensing, John Schroeder, Paul von Lilienfeld-Toal, and summaries by Committee members.
                  ~~~~Two months before moving against Prescott Bush's Union Banking Corporation, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of all property of the Hamburg American Line and North German Lloyd, under the Trading with the Enemy Act - REF: Office of Alien Property Custodian, Vesting Order No. 126. Signed by Leo T. Crowley, Alien Property Custodian, executed August 28, 1942 F.R. Doc. 42-8774; Filed September 4, 1942, 10:55 A.M.; 7 F.R. 7061 (No 176, Sept 5, 1942, Memorandum to the Executive Committee of the Office of Alien Property Custodian, stamped CONFIDENTIAL, from the Division of Investigation and Research, Homer Jones, Chief. Now declassified in U.S. National Archives, Suitland, Maryland annex. See Record Group 131, Alien Property Custodian, investigative reports, in file box relating to Vesting Order No. 126.
                   Negotiators in the
                  Harriman take-over were: W. Cuno, Post WWI chief executive of the
                  Hamburg-Amerika Line, financial contributor to the Nazi Party;
                  ~~~~Cuno was later exposed by Walter Funk, Third Reich Press Chief and Under Secretary of Propaganda, in Funk's postwar jail cell at Nuremberg; but Cuno had died just as Hitler was taking power. REF: William L. Shirer, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich "(New York: Simon and Schuster, 1960), p.144. "Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression-Supplement B, op. cit., p. 1688
                  M.
                  Warburg, Hamburg-Amerika Line banker, Nazi financial contributor; REF: David Farrer: "The Warburgs: The Story of a Family" (New York, Stein & Day, 1975)
                   A.
                  Voegler, chief executive of the Thyssen - Flick German Steel Trust,
                  director of BHS Bank in Rotterdam, director of Hamburg-Amerika Line,
                  helped organize the final Nazi leap into power; ~~~~REF:"Elimination of German Resources for War", Hearings Before a Subcommittee of the Committee of Military Affairs, United States Senate, Seventy-Ninth Congress, Part 5, Testimony of the Treasury Dept, July 2, 1945, pp.881-82
                   Baron von Schroeder,
                  co-director of Thyssen's foundries with J. Groeniger (Prescott
                  Bush's NY banking partner), treasurer of the support organization
                  for the
                  > Nazi Party private armies.....
                  >
                  > ~~~~REF: Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression-Supplement B, op. cit., pp.1178, 1453-54, 1597, 1599.
                  >
                  >
                  > ~~~~Happy now?
                  Gisele


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