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Re: Moltke "initiated" WW1?

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  • epwijnantsresearch
    The Germans could have stopped the War emediatly by offerrring to give up their occupation of Belgium and France but they didn t want to. If they had dones so
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 2, 2004
      The Germans could have stopped the War emediatly by offerrring to
      give up their occupation of Belgium and France but they didn't want
      to. If they had dones so before the end of the War, they would not
      have to pay (or at least could have negotiated themselves out of
      that) what they now had to pay once they completely lost the War.

      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "walkinsnotwelcome"
      <zolarczakl@n...> wrote:
      > Once the war began,(my impression is that) it reached a condition
      > impasse/stagnation/nothing-happening-here very quickly. So since
      > entire enterprise was by then pointless, who was responsible for
      > calling it off? This is at least as important as who started it. -
      > Larry
    • holderlin66
      http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/aul/aupress/Books/b-55/heartch6.htm By now it was obvious to almost everyone in the room that the CINC was beginning to like what
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 2, 2004

        "By now it was obvious to almost everyone in the room that the CINC
        was beginning to like what he was hearing. Warden continued,
        covering suppression of enemy air defenses and psychological
        operations. Gathering momentum, he then talked about exactly what
        the Instant Thunder plan would produce. In Warden's view, the
        executed plan would destroy Saddam Hussein's power base and leave
        his offensive military capability degraded and difficult to rebuild.
        It would also severely disrupt Iraq's economy. Unlike the postwar
        military, however, Iraq's economy could be quickly restored. Warden
        referred to this entire effort as a kind of modern-day Schlieffen

        *A war plan conceived in 1906 by Count Alfred von Schlieffen, the
        German chief of staff, to destroy France before the Russians had
        time to complete their mobilization. In order to avoid a war on two
        fronts, Schlieffen wanted to invade France through Belgium with a
        massive, right-flanking movement. He intended to crush the French
        forces against their own defenses in an encirclement as effective as
        the one Hannibal used against the Romans at Cannae, Italy. The
        German forces would then quickly turn and defeat the Russians.
        Unfortunately for the Germans, Schlieffen died in 1914, and the
        execution of the plan fell to Helmuth von Moltke (the younger), who
        diluted the right flank to support forces engaged against the
        Russians. Critically weakened, the German offensive stalled and then
        collapsed. No doubt, General Schwarzkopf was unhappy about Warden's
        comparing Instant Thunder to a plan that failed.

        "Don't call it the Schlieffen Plan!" said Schwarzkopf, gesturing
        toward the Instant Thunder slides.

        "But it is the Schlieffen Plan," countered Warden, "rotated into the
        third dimension!"27 Since Schwarzkopf did not pursue the argument,
        the discussion returned to the question of exactly when the forces
        could be in-theater and available for tasking.

        "If we're talking about the end of September, I'm not worried," said

        General Meier, who had said nothing since introducing the briefing,
        piped in, "[Air Force Chief of Staff] Dugan thinks it's executable
        mid-September and risk-acceptable to do it even earlier."28

        Schwarzkopf nodded. "We can't flow air and land simultaneously."

        "We're not recommending how you make your [flow] choices," said
        Meier, casting a knowing glance at Warden. The two men had been at
        odds over making flow recommendations to the CINC ever since Meier
        got involved in the planning process. Warden wanted to change the
        flow to get more of the right kinds of aircraft needed to execute
        Instant Thunder as soon as possible, but Meier was dead-set against
        even trying to deal with the issue.29

        Burt Moore, Schwarzkopf's operations general, gestured toward the
        slides. "These are only forces assigned to you. Turkey forces [sic]
        are not considered, [and] a fourth carrier's not included."30

        Not wanting to be left out, Warden interjected that during the
        meeting of 11 August, General Powell indicated that getting
        permission to use Turkey as a base of operations would be
        politically difficult.31 Schwarzkopf cut him off with a wave of the
        hand, pointed a meaty index finger at him, and said, "I told you to
        look at a plan not able to launch from Saudi Arabia."32 The room
        suddenly went quiet. Now it was Warden's turn to sweat. During the
        first briefing, the CINC had told him to consider an option that
        didn't include basing in Saudi Arabia. But with only seven days to
        prepare a comprehensive, executable plan, he simply hadn't had time
        to think about it, let alone produce something! Besides, in Warden's
        view, it didn't make any sense! Why plan to commit forces to restore
        order and economic stability to a region if the major friendly force
        in that region was unwilling to let you in?"
      • holderlin66
        Clausewitz: Total War http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/894819/posts Clausewitz went on to document his fascination with the concept of total war as it
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 2, 2004
          Clausewitz: Total War


          "Clausewitz went on to document his fascination with the concept of
          total war as it was defined by Napoleon's overbearing and
          indiscriminate methods in his influential book On War. The book
          produced the famous quote, "War is nothing other than the
          continuation of state policy by different means," a sentiment that
          pales in comparison to the remainder of his theory.

          J.F.C. Fuller, the British historian, noted that Clausewitz "never
          grasped the true aim of war was peace, not victory." Indeed,
          Clausewitz created further confusion with his theory, that war had
          three specific aims: "To conquer and destroy the enemy's armed
          force, to get possession of the material elements of aggression, and
          to gain public opinion." The problem was that by using the model of
          total war and subjecting the enemy's civilian population to
          brutality, how could he expect to gain public opinion? Few examples
          in history had been shown to support this.

          Another Prussian, Helmuth von Moltke, took the Clausewitz maxim of
          war as an instrument of policy and rejected the rest of On War,
          going on to create the modern general-staff and launch three
          successful and progressive campaigns that transformed Prussia into
          modern Germany. He did this without being universally destructive
          and unlimited in his goals. With Prussian chancellor Otto von
          Bismarck, Moltke carved out the German state with the goal of not
          extending the country's interests beyond the point that other powers
          could live with. However, the two would split on their tactics in
          the Franco-Prussian War when, after surrounding Paris and
          effectively winning victory, Bismarck decided to "possess" the city
          by breaking the Parisians' spirits through artillery bombardment.
          Moltke protested, citing that the bombing would likely stiffen not
          weaken French resistance. Bismarck ordered the bombing anyway and
          certainly added to the foundation for future conflict between the

          The bombing of Paris can be correlated to the War of 1812 in which
          the assaults of the British on the innocents of the U.S. and the
          razing of Washington, DC were attempts to break the will of the
          population to fight. Instead, the action galvanized the will of the
          American people and led to the final defeat of the British on our
          soil and inspired our national anthem which reminds all who sing it
          of the strength of our convictions then and now.

          Uncivil War

          Perhaps no conflict better illustrates the depth of destructiveness
          of Clausewitz's vision of war than the American Civil War. And while
          the cause of the war is open to debate, the greater effect it had on
          the fabric of this country is timeless for the actions of one man:
          William Tecumseh Sherman.

          Sherman truly represented both the progressive war of Frederick the
          Great and the failure of total war of Clausewitz. In his infamous
          march from Atlanta to the sea and journey north through the
          Carolinas, he brilliantly deprived the Confederate army of vital
          supply lines by destroying railways, roads, bridges, and telegraph
          wires while systematically defeating his adversaries and destroying
          their access to arms. But he didn't stop at meeting military goals.
          He also unleashed violence on the people that was comparable to a
          Roman punitive raid and declared that he was at war with every man,
          woman, and child in the south. He and his troops acted in such a
          barbaric fashion against noncombatants, coupled with the heavy
          handed destruction of the south, that it plagued the period of
          Reconstruction. But his greater legacy is the hatred of many
          southerners to this day and the continuation of division between the
          states and the central government. The union was maintained but the
          cost was great, and much of that cost can be attributed to Sherman.

          Terror Finds a Home

          Terrorism made a critical advance in the aftermath of World War I in
          Russia where the Bolshevik Revolution led by Vladimir Lenin
          established the "worker's state". Finally there was a state that
          would foster the ideology and the practice of terror as well as fund
          it to fruition. Lenin spoke of terror in a prescient fashion when he
          warned his comrades that "our duty is to warn most energetically
          against too much fascination by terror, against regarding it as the
          main and basic means of struggle, something to which so many are
          inclined at this time."

          The Treaty of Versailles and President Woodrow Wilson's commitment
          to the League of Nations (later to be named the United Nations) all
          but sealed the fate of Germany for the next Great War, which ended
          up being nothing more but the continuation of the first. Nor did it
          bode well for the future that the League would leave the Arabian
          Peninsula, which had risen against the Ottoman Empire, hamstrung
          with European mandates, protectorates, and spheres of influence. It
          was only by action by the Senate that the U.S. did not participate
          in the League in order to maintain American military authority.

          Wilson was convinced that the root of the problem in Germany
          was "Prussianism", but he was wrong. Kaiser Wilhelm was the master
          of the tactics of poison gas and murder of civilians in Belgium, and
          while he was Prussian, his tactics would have appalled Frederick the
          Great and stood in stark contrast to the progressive warfare of

          Moreover, Wilson had neglected to note that France, not Prussia, had
          been far more guilty of consistently raising egomaniacal kings and
          emperors to sweep the continent seeking domination. History was
          becoming a stumbling block and the post-war period from 1918 to 1939
          set the stage for even greater conflict. Germany was stripped of its
          war machine and later the Great Depression seized the world plunging
          the country in to economic chaos and fomenting contempt from its
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