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Re: Moltke "initiated" WW1?

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  • walkinsnotwelcome
    Once the war began,(my impression is that) it reached a condition of impasse/stagnation/nothing-happening-here very quickly. So since the entire enterprise was
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 1, 2004
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      Once the war began,(my impression is that) it reached a condition of
      impasse/stagnation/nothing-happening-here very quickly. So since the
      entire enterprise was by then pointless, who was responsible for not
      calling it off? This is at least as important as who started it. -
      Larry
    • epwijnantsresearch
      The Germans could have stopped the War emediatly by offerrring to give up their occupation of Belgium and France but they didn t want to. If they had dones so
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 2, 2004
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        The Germans could have stopped the War emediatly by offerrring to
        give up their occupation of Belgium and France but they didn't want
        to. If they had dones so before the end of the War, they would not
        have to pay (or at least could have negotiated themselves out of
        that) what they now had to pay once they completely lost the War.

        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "walkinsnotwelcome"
        <zolarczakl@n...> wrote:
        > Once the war began,(my impression is that) it reached a condition
        of
        > impasse/stagnation/nothing-happening-here very quickly. So since
        the
        > entire enterprise was by then pointless, who was responsible for
        not
        > calling it off? This is at least as important as who started it. -
        > Larry
      • holderlin66
        http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/aul/aupress/Books/b-55/heartch6.htm By now it was obvious to almost everyone in the room that the CINC was beginning to like what
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 2, 2004
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          http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/aul/aupress/Books/b-55/heartch6.htm

          "By now it was obvious to almost everyone in the room that the CINC
          was beginning to like what he was hearing. Warden continued,
          covering suppression of enemy air defenses and psychological
          operations. Gathering momentum, he then talked about exactly what
          the Instant Thunder plan would produce. In Warden's view, the
          executed plan would destroy Saddam Hussein's power base and leave
          his offensive military capability degraded and difficult to rebuild.
          It would also severely disrupt Iraq's economy. Unlike the postwar
          military, however, Iraq's economy could be quickly restored. Warden
          referred to this entire effort as a kind of modern-day Schlieffen
          Plan.*

          *A war plan conceived in 1906 by Count Alfred von Schlieffen, the
          German chief of staff, to destroy France before the Russians had
          time to complete their mobilization. In order to avoid a war on two
          fronts, Schlieffen wanted to invade France through Belgium with a
          massive, right-flanking movement. He intended to crush the French
          forces against their own defenses in an encirclement as effective as
          the one Hannibal used against the Romans at Cannae, Italy. The
          German forces would then quickly turn and defeat the Russians.
          Unfortunately for the Germans, Schlieffen died in 1914, and the
          execution of the plan fell to Helmuth von Moltke (the younger), who
          diluted the right flank to support forces engaged against the
          Russians. Critically weakened, the German offensive stalled and then
          collapsed. No doubt, General Schwarzkopf was unhappy about Warden's
          comparing Instant Thunder to a plan that failed.

          "Don't call it the Schlieffen Plan!" said Schwarzkopf, gesturing
          toward the Instant Thunder slides.

          "But it is the Schlieffen Plan," countered Warden, "rotated into the
          third dimension!"27 Since Schwarzkopf did not pursue the argument,
          the discussion returned to the question of exactly when the forces
          could be in-theater and available for tasking.

          "If we're talking about the end of September, I'm not worried," said
          Schwarzkopf.

          General Meier, who had said nothing since introducing the briefing,
          piped in, "[Air Force Chief of Staff] Dugan thinks it's executable
          mid-September and risk-acceptable to do it even earlier."28

          Schwarzkopf nodded. "We can't flow air and land simultaneously."

          "We're not recommending how you make your [flow] choices," said
          Meier, casting a knowing glance at Warden. The two men had been at
          odds over making flow recommendations to the CINC ever since Meier
          got involved in the planning process. Warden wanted to change the
          flow to get more of the right kinds of aircraft needed to execute
          Instant Thunder as soon as possible, but Meier was dead-set against
          even trying to deal with the issue.29

          Burt Moore, Schwarzkopf's operations general, gestured toward the
          slides. "These are only forces assigned to you. Turkey forces [sic]
          are not considered, [and] a fourth carrier's not included."30

          Not wanting to be left out, Warden interjected that during the
          meeting of 11 August, General Powell indicated that getting
          permission to use Turkey as a base of operations would be
          politically difficult.31 Schwarzkopf cut him off with a wave of the
          hand, pointed a meaty index finger at him, and said, "I told you to
          look at a plan not able to launch from Saudi Arabia."32 The room
          suddenly went quiet. Now it was Warden's turn to sweat. During the
          first briefing, the CINC had told him to consider an option that
          didn't include basing in Saudi Arabia. But with only seven days to
          prepare a comprehensive, executable plan, he simply hadn't had time
          to think about it, let alone produce something! Besides, in Warden's
          view, it didn't make any sense! Why plan to commit forces to restore
          order and economic stability to a region if the major friendly force
          in that region was unwilling to let you in?"
        • holderlin66
          Clausewitz: Total War http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/894819/posts Clausewitz went on to document his fascination with the concept of total war as it
          Message 4 of 4 , Jun 2, 2004
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            Clausewitz: Total War

            http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/894819/posts

            "Clausewitz went on to document his fascination with the concept of
            total war as it was defined by Napoleon's overbearing and
            indiscriminate methods in his influential book On War. The book
            produced the famous quote, "War is nothing other than the
            continuation of state policy by different means," a sentiment that
            pales in comparison to the remainder of his theory.

            J.F.C. Fuller, the British historian, noted that Clausewitz "never
            grasped the true aim of war was peace, not victory." Indeed,
            Clausewitz created further confusion with his theory, that war had
            three specific aims: "To conquer and destroy the enemy's armed
            force, to get possession of the material elements of aggression, and
            to gain public opinion." The problem was that by using the model of
            total war and subjecting the enemy's civilian population to
            brutality, how could he expect to gain public opinion? Few examples
            in history had been shown to support this.

            Another Prussian, Helmuth von Moltke, took the Clausewitz maxim of
            war as an instrument of policy and rejected the rest of On War,
            going on to create the modern general-staff and launch three
            successful and progressive campaigns that transformed Prussia into
            modern Germany. He did this without being universally destructive
            and unlimited in his goals. With Prussian chancellor Otto von
            Bismarck, Moltke carved out the German state with the goal of not
            extending the country's interests beyond the point that other powers
            could live with. However, the two would split on their tactics in
            the Franco-Prussian War when, after surrounding Paris and
            effectively winning victory, Bismarck decided to "possess" the city
            by breaking the Parisians' spirits through artillery bombardment.
            Moltke protested, citing that the bombing would likely stiffen not
            weaken French resistance. Bismarck ordered the bombing anyway and
            certainly added to the foundation for future conflict between the
            countries.

            The bombing of Paris can be correlated to the War of 1812 in which
            the assaults of the British on the innocents of the U.S. and the
            razing of Washington, DC were attempts to break the will of the
            population to fight. Instead, the action galvanized the will of the
            American people and led to the final defeat of the British on our
            soil and inspired our national anthem which reminds all who sing it
            of the strength of our convictions then and now.

            Uncivil War

            Perhaps no conflict better illustrates the depth of destructiveness
            of Clausewitz's vision of war than the American Civil War. And while
            the cause of the war is open to debate, the greater effect it had on
            the fabric of this country is timeless for the actions of one man:
            William Tecumseh Sherman.

            Sherman truly represented both the progressive war of Frederick the
            Great and the failure of total war of Clausewitz. In his infamous
            march from Atlanta to the sea and journey north through the
            Carolinas, he brilliantly deprived the Confederate army of vital
            supply lines by destroying railways, roads, bridges, and telegraph
            wires while systematically defeating his adversaries and destroying
            their access to arms. But he didn't stop at meeting military goals.
            He also unleashed violence on the people that was comparable to a
            Roman punitive raid and declared that he was at war with every man,
            woman, and child in the south. He and his troops acted in such a
            barbaric fashion against noncombatants, coupled with the heavy
            handed destruction of the south, that it plagued the period of
            Reconstruction. But his greater legacy is the hatred of many
            southerners to this day and the continuation of division between the
            states and the central government. The union was maintained but the
            cost was great, and much of that cost can be attributed to Sherman.

            Terror Finds a Home

            Terrorism made a critical advance in the aftermath of World War I in
            Russia where the Bolshevik Revolution led by Vladimir Lenin
            established the "worker's state". Finally there was a state that
            would foster the ideology and the practice of terror as well as fund
            it to fruition. Lenin spoke of terror in a prescient fashion when he
            warned his comrades that "our duty is to warn most energetically
            against too much fascination by terror, against regarding it as the
            main and basic means of struggle, something to which so many are
            inclined at this time."

            The Treaty of Versailles and President Woodrow Wilson's commitment
            to the League of Nations (later to be named the United Nations) all
            but sealed the fate of Germany for the next Great War, which ended
            up being nothing more but the continuation of the first. Nor did it
            bode well for the future that the League would leave the Arabian
            Peninsula, which had risen against the Ottoman Empire, hamstrung
            with European mandates, protectorates, and spheres of influence. It
            was only by action by the Senate that the U.S. did not participate
            in the League in order to maintain American military authority.

            Wilson was convinced that the root of the problem in Germany
            was "Prussianism", but he was wrong. Kaiser Wilhelm was the master
            of the tactics of poison gas and murder of civilians in Belgium, and
            while he was Prussian, his tactics would have appalled Frederick the
            Great and stood in stark contrast to the progressive warfare of
            Moltke.

            Moreover, Wilson had neglected to note that France, not Prussia, had
            been far more guilty of consistently raising egomaniacal kings and
            emperors to sweep the continent seeking domination. History was
            becoming a stumbling block and the post-war period from 1918 to 1939
            set the stage for even greater conflict. Germany was stripped of its
            war machine and later the Great Depression seized the world plunging
            the country in to economic chaos and fomenting contempt from its
            people."
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