Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Waldorf and the State

Expand Messages
  • ted.wrinch
    Dan Dugan s has now admitted that his campaign against Waldorf schooling has extended from one of opposing state funding to opposing it altogether (WC message
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 26, 2012
      Dan Dugan's has now admitted that his campaign against Waldorf schooling has extended from one of opposing state funding to opposing it altogether (WC message 23486). This isn't really anything new - it's been apparent as the ethos of the group for many years - but it's perhaps of interest to see it being admitted in public. In pursuit of his objective, Dan, along with the team, has been punctiliously scouring the information bahn for negative Waldorf stories. He's thrown up one story recently that is rather interesting. There's a disagreement between local residents and members of school boards of governors concerning the attempt to establish a state funded Waldorf school in Frome, Somerset, UK. In the local paper the pro resident wrote this thoughtful letter:

      "In his letter of March 8 ("Steiner research raises questions") your
      correspondent (and my friend) John Boxall seems to have fallen below his usual
      high standards of intelligence and rationality and allowed a prejudice to colour
      his opinions that do him no credit and the Frome community a disservice.

      In response to this I would like to make a few points that may help to correct
      the latter.

      Firstly, if the application from the Steiner Academy to open a school in Frome
      is approved by the Department for Education (DfE ), no parent or child will be
      forced to use the education services it will offer. Parents who choose to send
      children to the school will do so knowing that their children will be educated
      in an unorthodox way that is not offered by any of the existing schools in
      Frome.

      They will have weighed up the evidence for the successes and failures of both
      the Steiner method and the methods we use in our existing schools and made a
      decision that is appropriate to the child in question and for their own beliefs
      about, and requirements of, education and child development.

      We have to hope and believe that the DfE will only give approval to this
      application if there is a demonstrable demand for it, but if that approval is
      given then parents in Frome will have been given a greater choice in the
      education of our children. An additional choice is broadly beneficial but we
      should not ignore the impact that this new school may have.

      Secondly, all adults who are involved in schools, whether they are teachers,
      ancillary staff or governors (of which I am one), have a statutory duty of care
      for the children who are in school. All schools (and this will include the
      Steiner school) have policies, approved by the DfE and open to inspection by
      all, that itemise how this duty of care is to be achieved and the well being of
      children safeguarded. Included in those policies are articles to ensure that
      children and staff are not discriminated against on the grounds of race, gender
      or creed.

      In admitting a child, or selecting a member of staff, schools would be
      interested to know about cultural background and religious beliefs but would not
      use this information in the selection process. It is not merely possible, but
      very probable that there are significant numbers of staff already working in
      schools in Frome that do believe in karma and reincarnation, and maybe even some
      who talk to gnomes. I don't know about gnomic conversations, but a belief in
      karma and reincarnation are elements of major world religions, including some
      versions of Christianity, and, along with many other components of belief
      systems, have not yet been either proved or disproved.

      For those involved in the education of children, be they parents or staff, the
      vital thing is the quality of the care given to children, not the belief system
      of the carer. To sneer at those who hold such beliefs in the prejudiced tone in
      John's letter, whilst also pointing the finger of racism at Steiner, is, sadly
      in my view, both confused and hypocritical.

      Thirdly, the introduction of the Steiner Academy into the educational mix in
      Frome will have a considerable impact. At least some of the children enrolled
      there would have attended one of the existing Frome schools and the absence of
      these children will reduce numbers, and thus the income, for these schools. This
      is one of the legitimate concerns that we in Frome will have if the DfE decides
      to grant the Steiner application.

      If this happens the Frome community, which will then include the Steiner school
      and its prospective parents, should make sure that the DfE engages with us, and
      with these concerns, to assess the impacts of the additional school and ensure
      that measures are in place to reduce negative outcomes and maximise the gains
      that could come to our community with Steiner education.

      This will be the time that we should ask our MP to put forward the needs of this
      community to the Government and these will be about the resources available to
      us to improve the care and education of children who are going and will go
      through our schools.

      With respect, John, I would suggest that they should not be about a belief or
      otherwise in cycles of reincarnation or the provision of education for the
      non-existent children of Dr Who at a fictional school.

      I hope that both John and the Minister for Education will understand that there
      are a great many excellent people in Frome putting a lot of effort into
      improving the education of our children in this community and who take a serious
      and responsible view of the issues, even if they do not always agree with each
      other.

      Of course, John's letter (and this one) will be irrelevant if the Steiner
      application is turned down. But if it is approved it will create a challenge for
      all in this community who are involved and interested in the education of our
      children, and if we are to rise to this challenge and make the most of it we
      will need to keep clear heads and open minds. John's letter seems to take us in
      the opposite direction, which is why I think it does a disservice to us.

      As a parent, John should be involved in this discussion but I hope that he can
      join it with tolerance for those who have a different set of beliefs than his
      own and without resorting to the prejudices that should be left to the red-top
      press.

      TIM CUTTING

      Nunney Road

      Frome"

      Alicia has commented on a part of his letter on her blog, which apparently has rather shocked him. I think he finds it surprising that the activities of a sleepy little town in one of the more rural counties of the UK is of interest to anyone else. I guess this is globalisation in action!

      T.

      Ted Wrinch
    • elfuncle
      Dan Dugan s movement has evolved into a campaign to rid the entire world of Waldorf schools and to put a permanent stop to the entire anthroposophical
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 26, 2012
        Dan Dugan's movement has evolved into a campaign to rid the entire world of Waldorf schools and to put a permanent stop to the entire anthroposophical movement, including anthroposophical cosmology and Christology, anthroposophically extended medicine, biodynamic agriculture and so on. Some day they, or their ideological heirs, may come up with a master plan for the final solution to the anthroposophical problem.

        They have always been especially incensed by the widespread opposition to vaccines because many anthroposophists share this position. For that reason, Alicia once said that anthroposophists are bacteria or parasites -- exactly what Himmler used to say about the Jews.

        "I have pointed out that while human bodies will develop in such a way that certain spiritualities can find room in them, the materialistic bent, which will spread more and more under the guidance of the spirits of darkness, will work against this and combat it by physical means. I have told you that the spirits of darkness are going to inspire their human hosts, in whom they will be dwelling, to find a vaccine that will drive all inclination towards spirituality out of people's souls when they are still very young, and this will happen in a roundabout way through the living body. Today, bodies are vaccinated against one thing and another; in future, children will be vaccinated with a substance which it will certainly be possible to produce, and this will make them immune, so that they do not develop foolish inclinations connected with spiritual life — `foolish' here, of course, in the eyes of materialists."

        ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, Lecture 13: The Fallen Spirits' Influence in the World , Dornach, 27 October 1917, GA 177)

        Tarjei

        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dan Dugan's has now admitted that his campaign against Waldorf schooling has extended from one of opposing state funding to opposing it altogether (WC message 23486). This isn't really anything new - it's been apparent as the ethos of the group for many years - but it's perhaps of interest to see it being admitted in public. In pursuit of his objective, Dan, along with the team, has been punctiliously scouring the information bahn for negative Waldorf stories. He's thrown up one story recently that is rather interesting. There's a disagreement between local residents and members of school boards of governors concerning the attempt to establish a state funded Waldorf school in Frome, Somerset, UK. In the local paper the pro resident wrote this thoughtful letter:
        >
        > "In his letter of March 8 ("Steiner research raises questions") your
        > correspondent (and my friend) John Boxall seems to have fallen below his usual
        > high standards of intelligence and rationality and allowed a prejudice to colour
        > his opinions that do him no credit and the Frome community a disservice.
        >
        > In response to this I would like to make a few points that may help to correct
        > the latter.
        >
        > Firstly, if the application from the Steiner Academy to open a school in Frome
        > is approved by the Department for Education (DfE ), no parent or child will be
        > forced to use the education services it will offer. Parents who choose to send
        > children to the school will do so knowing that their children will be educated
        > in an unorthodox way that is not offered by any of the existing schools in
        > Frome.
        >
        > They will have weighed up the evidence for the successes and failures of both
        > the Steiner method and the methods we use in our existing schools and made a
        > decision that is appropriate to the child in question and for their own beliefs
        > about, and requirements of, education and child development.
        >
        > We have to hope and believe that the DfE will only give approval to this
        > application if there is a demonstrable demand for it, but if that approval is
        > given then parents in Frome will have been given a greater choice in the
        > education of our children. An additional choice is broadly beneficial but we
        > should not ignore the impact that this new school may have.
        >
        > Secondly, all adults who are involved in schools, whether they are teachers,
        > ancillary staff or governors (of which I am one), have a statutory duty of care
        > for the children who are in school. All schools (and this will include the
        > Steiner school) have policies, approved by the DfE and open to inspection by
        > all, that itemise how this duty of care is to be achieved and the well being of
        > children safeguarded. Included in those policies are articles to ensure that
        > children and staff are not discriminated against on the grounds of race, gender
        > or creed.
        >
        > In admitting a child, or selecting a member of staff, schools would be
        > interested to know about cultural background and religious beliefs but would not
        > use this information in the selection process. It is not merely possible, but
        > very probable that there are significant numbers of staff already working in
        > schools in Frome that do believe in karma and reincarnation, and maybe even some
        > who talk to gnomes. I don't know about gnomic conversations, but a belief in
        > karma and reincarnation are elements of major world religions, including some
        > versions of Christianity, and, along with many other components of belief
        > systems, have not yet been either proved or disproved.
        >
        > For those involved in the education of children, be they parents or staff, the
        > vital thing is the quality of the care given to children, not the belief system
        > of the carer. To sneer at those who hold such beliefs in the prejudiced tone in
        > John's letter, whilst also pointing the finger of racism at Steiner, is, sadly
        > in my view, both confused and hypocritical.
        >
        > Thirdly, the introduction of the Steiner Academy into the educational mix in
        > Frome will have a considerable impact. At least some of the children enrolled
        > there would have attended one of the existing Frome schools and the absence of
        > these children will reduce numbers, and thus the income, for these schools. This
        > is one of the legitimate concerns that we in Frome will have if the DfE decides
        > to grant the Steiner application.
        >
        > If this happens the Frome community, which will then include the Steiner school
        > and its prospective parents, should make sure that the DfE engages with us, and
        > with these concerns, to assess the impacts of the additional school and ensure
        > that measures are in place to reduce negative outcomes and maximise the gains
        > that could come to our community with Steiner education.
        >
        > This will be the time that we should ask our MP to put forward the needs of this
        > community to the Government and these will be about the resources available to
        > us to improve the care and education of children who are going and will go
        > through our schools.
        >
        > With respect, John, I would suggest that they should not be about a belief or
        > otherwise in cycles of reincarnation or the provision of education for the
        > non-existent children of Dr Who at a fictional school.
        >
        > I hope that both John and the Minister for Education will understand that there
        > are a great many excellent people in Frome putting a lot of effort into
        > improving the education of our children in this community and who take a serious
        > and responsible view of the issues, even if they do not always agree with each
        > other.
        >
        > Of course, John's letter (and this one) will be irrelevant if the Steiner
        > application is turned down. But if it is approved it will create a challenge for
        > all in this community who are involved and interested in the education of our
        > children, and if we are to rise to this challenge and make the most of it we
        > will need to keep clear heads and open minds. John's letter seems to take us in
        > the opposite direction, which is why I think it does a disservice to us.
        >
        > As a parent, John should be involved in this discussion but I hope that he can
        > join it with tolerance for those who have a different set of beliefs than his
        > own and without resorting to the prejudices that should be left to the red-top
        > press.
        >
        > TIM CUTTING
        >
        > Nunney Road
        >
        > Frome"
        >
        > Alicia has commented on a part of his letter on her blog, which apparently has rather shocked him. I think he finds it surprising that the activities of a sleepy little town in one of the more rural counties of the UK is of interest to anyone else. I guess this is globalisation in action!
        >
        > T.
        >
        > Ted Wrinch
        >

      • ted.wrinch
        All religious experience is an hallucination , according to arch-priest Dawkins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8VaBCikHGs . Since scientific opinion views
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 26, 2012
          All religious experience is an 'hallucination', according to arch-priest Dawkins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8VaBCikHGs . Since 'scientific opinion' views such experiences - all of them!- as an hallucination, something abnormal, it will make sense for them, when they discover how, to medicate this man back to health by removing from him what must be a very debilitating, permanent, 50 year long perceptual derangement. And, of course, as WC believe as religiously in 'scientific opinion' as this man believes in Christ, they will cheer Dawkins all the way to the lab…

          T.  

          Ted Wrinch

          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dan Dugan's movement has evolved into a campaign to rid the entire world
          > of Waldorf schools and to put a permanent stop to the entire
          > anthroposophical movement, including anthroposophical cosmology and
          > Christology, anthroposophically extended medicine, biodynamic
          > agriculture and so on. Some day they, or their ideological heirs, may
          > come up with a master plan for the final solution to the
          > anthroposophical problem.
          >
          > They have always been especially incensed by the widespread opposition
          > to vaccines because many anthroposophists share this position. For that
          > reason, Alicia once said that anthroposophists are bacteria or parasites
          > -- exactly what Himmler used to say about the Jews.
          >
          > "I have pointed out that while human bodies will develop in such a
          > way that certain spiritualities can find room in them, the
          > materialistic bent, which will spread more and more under the
          > guidance of the spirits of darkness, will work against this and
          > combat it by physical means. I have told you that the spirits of
          > darkness are going to inspire their human hosts, in whom they will be
          > dwelling, to find a vaccine that will drive all inclination towards
          > spirituality out of people's souls when they are still very young,
          > and this will happen in a roundabout way through the living body.
          > Today, bodies are vaccinated against one thing and another; in
          > future, children will be vaccinated with a substance which it will
          > certainly be possible to produce, and this will make them immune, so
          > that they do not develop foolish inclinations connected with
          > spiritual life — `foolish' here, of course, in the eyes
          > of materialists."
          >
          > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Fall of the Spirits of Darkness, Lecture 13: The
          > Fallen Spirits' Influence in the World
          > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA177/English/RSP1993/19171027p01.html\
          > > , Dornach, 27 October 1917, GA 177)
          >
          > Tarjei
          >
          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch"
          > <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Dan Dugan's has now admitted that his campaign against Waldorf
          > schooling has extended from one of opposing state funding to opposing it
          > altogether (WC message 23486). This isn't really anything new - it's
          > been apparent as the ethos of the group for many years - but it's
          > perhaps of interest to see it being admitted in public. In pursuit of
          > his objective, Dan, along with the team, has been punctiliously scouring
          > the information bahn for negative Waldorf stories. He's thrown up one
          > story recently that is rather interesting. There's a disagreement
          > between local residents and members of school boards of governors
          > concerning the attempt to establish a state funded Waldorf school in
          > Frome, Somerset, UK. In the local paper the pro resident wrote this
          > thoughtful letter:
          > >
          > > "In his letter of March 8 ("Steiner research raises questions") your
          > > correspondent (and my friend) John Boxall seems to have fallen below
          > his usual
          > > high standards of intelligence and rationality and allowed a prejudice
          > to colour
          > > his opinions that do him no credit and the Frome community a
          > disservice.
          > >
          > > In response to this I would like to make a few points that may help to
          > correct
          > > the latter.
          > >
          > > Firstly, if the application from the Steiner Academy to open a school
          > in Frome
          > > is approved by the Department for Education (DfE ), no parent or child
          > will be
          > > forced to use the education services it will offer. Parents who choose
          > to send
          > > children to the school will do so knowing that their children will be
          > educated
          > > in an unorthodox way that is not offered by any of the existing
          > schools in
          > > Frome.
          > >
          > > They will have weighed up the evidence for the successes and failures
          > of both
          > > the Steiner method and the methods we use in our existing schools and
          > made a
          > > decision that is appropriate to the child in question and for their
          > own beliefs
          > > about, and requirements of, education and child development.
          > >
          > > We have to hope and believe that the DfE will only give approval to
          > this
          > > application if there is a demonstrable demand for it, but if that
          > approval is
          > > given then parents in Frome will have been given a greater choice in
          > the
          > > education of our children. An additional choice is broadly beneficial
          > but we
          > > should not ignore the impact that this new school may have.
          > >
          > > Secondly, all adults who are involved in schools, whether they are
          > teachers,
          > > ancillary staff or governors (of which I am one), have a statutory
          > duty of care
          > > for the children who are in school. All schools (and this will include
          > the
          > > Steiner school) have policies, approved by the DfE and open to
          > inspection by
          > > all, that itemise how this duty of care is to be achieved and the well
          > being of
          > > children safeguarded. Included in those policies are articles to
          > ensure that
          > > children and staff are not discriminated against on the grounds of
          > race, gender
          > > or creed.
          > >
          > > In admitting a child, or selecting a member of staff, schools would be
          > > interested to know about cultural background and religious beliefs but
          > would not
          > > use this information in the selection process. It is not merely
          > possible, but
          > > very probable that there are significant numbers of staff already
          > working in
          > > schools in Frome that do believe in karma and reincarnation, and maybe
          > even some
          > > who talk to gnomes. I don't know about gnomic conversations, but a
          > belief in
          > > karma and reincarnation are elements of major world religions,
          > including some
          > > versions of Christianity, and, along with many other components of
          > belief
          > > systems, have not yet been either proved or disproved.
          > >
          > > For those involved in the education of children, be they parents or
          > staff, the
          > > vital thing is the quality of the care given to children, not the
          > belief system
          > > of the carer. To sneer at those who hold such beliefs in the
          > prejudiced tone in
          > > John's letter, whilst also pointing the finger of racism at Steiner,
          > is, sadly
          > > in my view, both confused and hypocritical.
          > >
          > > Thirdly, the introduction of the Steiner Academy into the educational
          > mix in
          > > Frome will have a considerable impact. At least some of the children
          > enrolled
          > > there would have attended one of the existing Frome schools and the
          > absence of
          > > these children will reduce numbers, and thus the income, for these
          > schools. This
          > > is one of the legitimate concerns that we in Frome will have if the
          > DfE decides
          > > to grant the Steiner application.
          > >
          > > If this happens the Frome community, which will then include the
          > Steiner school
          > > and its prospective parents, should make sure that the DfE engages
          > with us, and
          > > with these concerns, to assess the impacts of the additional school
          > and ensure
          > > that measures are in place to reduce negative outcomes and maximise
          > the gains
          > > that could come to our community with Steiner education.
          > >
          > > This will be the time that we should ask our MP to put forward the
          > needs of this
          > > community to the Government and these will be about the resources
          > available to
          > > us to improve the care and education of children who are going and
          > will go
          > > through our schools.
          > >
          > > With respect, John, I would suggest that they should not be about a
          > belief or
          > > otherwise in cycles of reincarnation or the provision of education for
          > the
          > > non-existent children of Dr Who at a fictional school.
          > >
          > > I hope that both John and the Minister for Education will understand
          > that there
          > > are a great many excellent people in Frome putting a lot of effort
          > into
          > > improving the education of our children in this community and who take
          > a serious
          > > and responsible view of the issues, even if they do not always agree
          > with each
          > > other.
          > >
          > > Of course, John's letter (and this one) will be irrelevant if the
          > Steiner
          > > application is turned down. But if it is approved it will create a
          > challenge for
          > > all in this community who are involved and interested in the education
          > of our
          > > children, and if we are to rise to this challenge and make the most of
          > it we
          > > will need to keep clear heads and open minds. John's letter seems to
          > take us in
          > > the opposite direction, which is why I think it does a disservice to
          > us.
          > >
          > > As a parent, John should be involved in this discussion but I hope
          > that he can
          > > join it with tolerance for those who have a different set of beliefs
          > than his
          > > own and without resorting to the prejudices that should be left to the
          > red-top
          > > press.
          > >
          > > TIM CUTTING
          > >
          > > Nunney Road
          > >
          > > Frome"
          > >
          > > Alicia has commented on a part of his letter on her blog, which
          > apparently has rather shocked him. I think he finds it surprising that
          > the activities of a sleepy little town in one of the more rural counties
          > of the UK is of interest to anyone else. I guess this is globalisation
          > in action!
          > >
          > > T.
          > >
          > > Ted Wrinch
          > >
          >
        • elfuncle
          The Deep Agents of the Rocky Mountains DA Spooner: Have we heard from Peking
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 26, 2012

            The Deep Agents of the Rocky Mountains 


            DA Spooner: Have we heard from Peking today?
            DA Gunther: I dunno, but they sure have the right idea.
            DA Spooner: Yep, a one party state with a free market, media control and everything. No greens squealing about pollution and shit like that. No weird spirituality running loose. They just wack those goons. Just wack'em.
            DA Gunther: The only thing we don't have here is the media control bit. We have some control, but it's insufficient.
            DA Spooner: Well, we don't have a one party government yet.
            DA Gunther: Of course we do: The Demopublican Party.
            DA Spooner: There's still some split.
            DA Gunther: That's only for the theater, don't worry.
            DA Spooner: So you don't know if anyone has heard from Peking today?
            DA Gunther: Naah, but I'll ask about it at dinner. I'm having Peking duck, wanna join me?
            DA Spooner: Yea, I'll order mine baked in a sitting position. I love sitting ducks!
            DA Gunther: Like Sitting Bull.
            DA Spooner (laughing): Yeah, send all them sitting ducks and bulls on a Wild West show with Buffalo Bill.
            DA Gunther (guffawing hysterically): Quack quack!
            DA Spooner: You know what they say, if it walks like a duck, smells like a duck, talks like a duck....
            DA Gunther: Then it's a heretic.
            DA Spooner: Exactly. An insurgent.
            DA Gunther: Subversive.
            DA Spooner: Rebel.
            DA Gunther: Enemy combatant.
            DA Spooner: Criminal thinker.
            DA Gunther: We're gonna get those thoughts, even if they don't write them down or speak them.
            DA Spooner: I know we will.
            DA Gunther: We've got the tech, they don't have a chance.After this conversation, the Deep Agents in the top secret facility inside the Rockies, strolled into their dining area and asked their Chinese cook to cook up a couple of sitting Peking ducks.

            Tarjei

            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
            >
            > All religious experience is an 'hallucination', according to arch-priest Dawkins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8VaBCikHGs . Since 'scientific opinion' views such experiences - all of them!- as an hallucination, something abnormal, it will make sense for them, when they discover how, to medicate this man back to health by removing from him what must be a very debilitating, permanent, 50 year long perceptual derangement. And, of course, as WC believe as religiously in 'scientific opinion' as this man believes in Christ, they will cheer Dawkins all the way to the lab…
            >
            > T.  
            >
            > Ted Wrinch

            >
          • ted.wrinch
            DA Spooner: Well, we don t have a one party government yet. DA Gunther: Of course we do: The Demopublican Party. Careful, you ll have PS accusing you of being
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 27, 2012
              DA Spooner: Well, we don't have a one party government yet.
              DA Gunther: Of course we do: The Demopublican Party.

              Careful, you'll have PS accusing you of being 'anti-democratic'!

              Over on WC, whist continuing to insult anthroposohists and 'Steiner defenders' as usual, they are now reprising the complaint that you observed - that no one comes to talk to them any more and it's boring! But they don't like windbags (me) or those that denigrate PS (everyone) so what do they expect? They are even asking nicely if Daniel Hindes could come back and play; but as far as I can see from the archives he's not been around for over half a decade! It's like watching naughty children smash up their toys and ask for some more…

              T.

              Ted Wrinch


              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > The Deep Agents of the Rocky Mountains
              > <http://uncletaz.blogspot.com/2009/09/deep-agents-of-rocky-mountains.htm\
              > l>
              > DA Spooner: Have we heard from Peking today?
              > DA Gunther: I dunno, but they sure have the right idea.
              > DA Spooner: Yep, a one party state with a free market, media control and
              > everything. No greens squealing about pollution and shit like that. No
              > weird spirituality running loose. They just wack those goons. Just
              > wack'em.
              > DA Gunther: The only thing we don't have here is the media control bit.
              > We have some control, but it's insufficient.
              > DA Spooner: Well, we don't have a one party government yet.
              > DA Gunther: Of course we do: The Demopublican Party.
              > DA Spooner: There's still some split.
              > DA Gunther: That's only for the theater, don't worry.
              > DA Spooner: So you don't know if anyone has heard from Peking today?
              > DA Gunther: Naah, but I'll ask about it at dinner. I'm having Peking
              > duck, wanna join me?
              > DA Spooner: Yea, I'll order mine baked in a sitting position. I love
              > sitting ducks!
              > DA Gunther: Like Sitting Bull.
              > DA Spooner (laughing): Yeah, send all them sitting ducks and bulls on a
              > Wild West show with Buffalo Bill.
              > DA Gunther (guffawing hysterically): Quack quack!
              > DA Spooner: You know what they say, if it walks like a duck, smells like
              > a duck, talks like a duck....
              > DA Gunther: Then it's a heretic.
              > DA Spooner: Exactly. An insurgent.
              > DA Gunther: Subversive.
              > DA Spooner: Rebel.
              > DA Gunther: Enemy combatant.
              > DA Spooner: Criminal thinker.
              > DA Gunther: We're gonna get those thoughts, even if they don't write
              > them down or speak them.
              > DA Spooner: I know we will.
              > DA Gunther: We've got the tech, they don't have a chance.After this
              > conversation, the Deep Agents in the top secret facility inside the
              > Rockies, strolled into their dining area and asked their Chinese cook to
              > cook up a couple of sitting Peking ducks.
              >
              > Tarjei
              >
              > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch"
              > <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
              > >
              > > All religious experience is an 'hallucination', according to
              > arch-priest Dawkins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8VaBCikHGs . Since
              > 'scientific opinion' views such experiences - all of them!- as an
              > hallucination, something abnormal, it will make sense for them, when
              > they discover how, to medicate this man back to health by removing from
              > him what must be a very debilitating, permanent, 50 year long perceptual
              > derangement. And, of course, as WC believe as religiously in 'scientific
              > opinion' as this man believes in Christ, they will cheer Dawkins all the
              > way to the lab…
              > >
              > > T.
              > >
              > > Ted Wrinch
              > >
              >
            • ted.wrinch
              Oh, and of course they d like it very much if you came to play too, but without the trolls. So that s, what, 9 years since you ve been over there? T. Ted
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 27, 2012
                Oh, and of course they'd like it very much if you came to play too, but without the trolls. So that's, what, 9 years since you've been over there?

                T.

                Ted Wrinch

                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
                >
                > DA Spooner: Well, we don't have a one party government yet.
                > DA Gunther: Of course we do: The Demopublican Party.
                >
                > Careful, you'll have PS accusing you of being 'anti-democratic'!
                >
                > Over on WC, whist continuing to insult anthroposohists and 'Steiner defenders' as usual, they are now reprising the complaint that you observed - that no one comes to talk to them any more and it's boring! But they don't like windbags (me) or those that denigrate PS (everyone) so what do they expect? They are even asking nicely if Daniel Hindes could come back and play; but as far as I can see from the archives he's not been around for over half a decade! It's like watching naughty children smash up their toys and ask for some more…
                >
                > T.
                >
                > Ted Wrinch
                >
                >
                > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > The Deep Agents of the Rocky Mountains
                > > <http://uncletaz.blogspot.com/2009/09/deep-agents-of-rocky-mountains.htm\
                > > l>
                > > DA Spooner: Have we heard from Peking today?
                > > DA Gunther: I dunno, but they sure have the right idea.
                > > DA Spooner: Yep, a one party state with a free market, media control and
                > > everything. No greens squealing about pollution and shit like that. No
                > > weird spirituality running loose. They just wack those goons. Just
                > > wack'em.
                > > DA Gunther: The only thing we don't have here is the media control bit.
                > > We have some control, but it's insufficient.
                > > DA Spooner: Well, we don't have a one party government yet.
                > > DA Gunther: Of course we do: The Demopublican Party.
                > > DA Spooner: There's still some split.
                > > DA Gunther: That's only for the theater, don't worry.
                > > DA Spooner: So you don't know if anyone has heard from Peking today?
                > > DA Gunther: Naah, but I'll ask about it at dinner. I'm having Peking
                > > duck, wanna join me?
                > > DA Spooner: Yea, I'll order mine baked in a sitting position. I love
                > > sitting ducks!
                > > DA Gunther: Like Sitting Bull.
                > > DA Spooner (laughing): Yeah, send all them sitting ducks and bulls on a
                > > Wild West show with Buffalo Bill.
                > > DA Gunther (guffawing hysterically): Quack quack!
                > > DA Spooner: You know what they say, if it walks like a duck, smells like
                > > a duck, talks like a duck....
                > > DA Gunther: Then it's a heretic.
                > > DA Spooner: Exactly. An insurgent.
                > > DA Gunther: Subversive.
                > > DA Spooner: Rebel.
                > > DA Gunther: Enemy combatant.
                > > DA Spooner: Criminal thinker.
                > > DA Gunther: We're gonna get those thoughts, even if they don't write
                > > them down or speak them.
                > > DA Spooner: I know we will.
                > > DA Gunther: We've got the tech, they don't have a chance.After this
                > > conversation, the Deep Agents in the top secret facility inside the
                > > Rockies, strolled into their dining area and asked their Chinese cook to
                > > cook up a couple of sitting Peking ducks.
                > >
                > > Tarjei
                > >
                > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch"
                > > <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > All religious experience is an 'hallucination', according to
                > > arch-priest Dawkins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8VaBCikHGs . Since
                > > 'scientific opinion' views such experiences - all of them!- as an
                > > hallucination, something abnormal, it will make sense for them, when
                > > they discover how, to medicate this man back to health by removing from
                > > him what must be a very debilitating, permanent, 50 year long perceptual
                > > derangement. And, of course, as WC believe as religiously in 'scientific
                > > opinion' as this man believes in Christ, they will cheer Dawkins all the
                > > way to the lab…
                > > >
                > > > T.
                > > >
                > > > Ted Wrinch
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • ted.wrinch
                They ve also asked that Joel come back to play, forgetting that when he did last Spring they were nasty to him. He dropped in to wish them an Easter greeting
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 27, 2012
                  They've also asked that Joel come back to play, forgetting that when he did last Spring they were nasty to him. He dropped in to wish them an Easter greeting and they accused him of supporting genocide of the Native Americans. The asymmetry of the discussion, -Joel was pleasant, intellectually focussed and poetical engaged - could not have been more apparent, but he had to sign off the list after a few weeks, describing it as a 'war zone' (WC message 18795). And Der Staudi has continued the denigration ever since - such as calling him 'inane' and ridiculing him and many others in WC message 22044; denigrating his experience in 21763; accusing him having a 'chest thumping' epistemology and ridiculing his literacy in 21576; ridiculing his attraction to the spiritual in 20423, as well as practically every other 'less blinkered proponent' that had ever visited the list. Why would anyone with a hide less thick than that of a rhinoceros ever wish to visit such a place for 'discussion'? What's happened down the years is that the denizens, led by their chief priest of 'rationality' Der Staudi, have become unaware how one-sided their thinking has become, and so how unbalanced and insulting their 'criticism', and how unappetising a sight this presents to those looking on from outside.

                  T.

                  Ted Wrinch

                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Oh, and of course they'd like it very much if you came to play too, but without the trolls. So that's, what, 9 years since you've been over there?
                  >
                  > T.
                  >
                  > Ted Wrinch
                  >
                  > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > DA Spooner: Well, we don't have a one party government yet.
                  > > DA Gunther: Of course we do: The Demopublican Party.
                  > >
                  > > Careful, you'll have PS accusing you of being 'anti-democratic'!
                  > >
                  > > Over on WC, whist continuing to insult anthroposohists and 'Steiner defenders' as usual, they are now reprising the complaint that you observed - that no one comes to talk to them any more and it's boring! But they don't like windbags (me) or those that denigrate PS (everyone) so what do they expect? They are even asking nicely if Daniel Hindes could come back and play; but as far as I can see from the archives he's not been around for over half a decade! It's like watching naughty children smash up their toys and ask for some more…
                  > >
                  > > T.
                  > >
                  > > Ted Wrinch
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > The Deep Agents of the Rocky Mountains
                  > > > <http://uncletaz.blogspot.com/2009/09/deep-agents-of-rocky-mountains.htm\
                  > > > l>
                  > > > DA Spooner: Have we heard from Peking today?
                  > > > DA Gunther: I dunno, but they sure have the right idea.
                  > > > DA Spooner: Yep, a one party state with a free market, media control and
                  > > > everything. No greens squealing about pollution and shit like that. No
                  > > > weird spirituality running loose. They just wack those goons. Just
                  > > > wack'em.
                  > > > DA Gunther: The only thing we don't have here is the media control bit.
                  > > > We have some control, but it's insufficient.
                  > > > DA Spooner: Well, we don't have a one party government yet.
                  > > > DA Gunther: Of course we do: The Demopublican Party.
                  > > > DA Spooner: There's still some split.
                  > > > DA Gunther: That's only for the theater, don't worry.
                  > > > DA Spooner: So you don't know if anyone has heard from Peking today?
                  > > > DA Gunther: Naah, but I'll ask about it at dinner. I'm having Peking
                  > > > duck, wanna join me?
                  > > > DA Spooner: Yea, I'll order mine baked in a sitting position. I love
                  > > > sitting ducks!
                  > > > DA Gunther: Like Sitting Bull.
                  > > > DA Spooner (laughing): Yeah, send all them sitting ducks and bulls on a
                  > > > Wild West show with Buffalo Bill.
                  > > > DA Gunther (guffawing hysterically): Quack quack!
                  > > > DA Spooner: You know what they say, if it walks like a duck, smells like
                  > > > a duck, talks like a duck....
                  > > > DA Gunther: Then it's a heretic.
                  > > > DA Spooner: Exactly. An insurgent.
                  > > > DA Gunther: Subversive.
                  > > > DA Spooner: Rebel.
                  > > > DA Gunther: Enemy combatant.
                  > > > DA Spooner: Criminal thinker.
                  > > > DA Gunther: We're gonna get those thoughts, even if they don't write
                  > > > them down or speak them.
                  > > > DA Spooner: I know we will.
                  > > > DA Gunther: We've got the tech, they don't have a chance.After this
                  > > > conversation, the Deep Agents in the top secret facility inside the
                  > > > Rockies, strolled into their dining area and asked their Chinese cook to
                  > > > cook up a couple of sitting Peking ducks.
                  > > >
                  > > > Tarjei
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch"
                  > > > <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > All religious experience is an 'hallucination', according to
                  > > > arch-priest Dawkins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8VaBCikHGs . Since
                  > > > 'scientific opinion' views such experiences - all of them!- as an
                  > > > hallucination, something abnormal, it will make sense for them, when
                  > > > they discover how, to medicate this man back to health by removing from
                  > > > him what must be a very debilitating, permanent, 50 year long perceptual
                  > > > derangement. And, of course, as WC believe as religiously in 'scientific
                  > > > opinion' as this man believes in Christ, they will cheer Dawkins all the
                  > > > way to the lab…
                  > > > >
                  > > > > T.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Ted Wrinch
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • ted.wrinch
                  Actually, Joel presents an example of a classic non-discussion between himself and the WC machine of rationality Der Staudi. The non-discussion is caused by
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 27, 2012
                    Actually, Joel presents an example of a classic non-discussion between himself and the WC 'machine of rationality' Der Staudi. The non-discussion is caused by a habitual and unexamined epistemological prejudice that Staudi exhibits and Joel questions; the prejudice is part of the larger one of 'scientism', that Joel accurately diagnoses as being caused by 'taking the theories of science as facts' (similar scientism takes the 'theory of evolution', as distinct from the factual evidence that supports it, as 'fact').

                    Staudi launches with one of his standard irrelevant-to-the-discussion (which was on interpreting texts) canards of supposed Steiner anti-Semitism:

                    Joel:

                    "did I leave anything out?"

                    Staudi:

                    > Yes. You left out Steiner's texts, for one thing, which is unsurprising,
                    > since you think Steiner's texts don't matter. If you want to know what
                    > Steiner taught, however, you will need to read his texts. Among other
                    > things, Steiner taught that there is no reason for Jews to exist in the
                    > modern world and that it would be best for Jews as a people to come to an
                    > end. You could find this out for yourself by reading Steiner's works. Yours
                    > for reading,
                    >

                    Joel:

                    "no, you still don't get it ... I understand his meaning better than do you,
                    and you haven't expressed it, only your biased view of it ...

                    "There is nothing outside the text," Derrida

                    "Deconstruction generally tries to demonstrate that any text is not a
                    discrete whole but contains several irreconcilable and contradictory
                    meanings; that any text therefore has more than one interpretation; that the
                    text itself links these interpretations inextricably; that the
                    incompatibility of these interpretations is irreducible; and thus that an
                    interpretative reading cannot go beyond a certain point" Wikipedia

                    The existential question of this line of thinking is whether or not we can
                    gain insight into what the writer actually meant from the reading of text,
                    or whether our interpretive intention so biases our potential understanding
                    that we are forever blind to the writers original meaning.

                    Derrida is wrong, by failing to notice the real presence of his own mind.
                    There is the text *and* his mind. (e.g. Steiner's text and the minds of
                    his sympathetic and antipathetic readers). Monism is the experience that
                    both the writer of the text and the reader of the text have the potential to
                    meet in the vertical - in the world of pure thought itself (being a real
                    place the mind can perceive, should it choose to make the effort). Thinking
                    as perception in the thought-world gives us the potential to share "meaning"
                    in an objective fashion, but the I of the reader has to get out of the way
                    (renounce reactive feelings, renounce our own habits of content -
                    pre-thought thoughts - and meaning, and renounce our own I as a participant
                    ... this coupled with love of the thinking of the other will allow "it to
                    think in me" - Steiner's formulation, which is brought about by "learning to
                    think on our knees" - Tomberg's formulation).

                    Otherwise text is only a mirror held up to our own biases, prejudices and
                    pre-thought thoughts. We see only our self in our interpretation - not the
                    other - the Thou."

                    Staudi:

                    > I understand his meaning better than do you


                    "You won't understand it at all until you read his texts. Yours for reading,"

                    This approach to 'texts' is symptomatic of Staudi's whole reductionist approach to epistemology and is what drives him to say that 'we can't know the actions of historical actors', contrary to the recent assertion of the head of his own Historical Association.

                    T.

                    Ted Wrinch

                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > They've also asked that Joel come back to play, forgetting that when he did last Spring they were nasty to him. He dropped in to wish them an Easter greeting and they accused him of supporting genocide of the Native Americans. The asymmetry of the discussion, -Joel was pleasant, intellectually focussed and poetical engaged - could not have been more apparent, but he had to sign off the list after a few weeks, describing it as a 'war zone' (WC message 18795). And Der Staudi has continued the denigration ever since - such as calling him 'inane' and ridiculing him and many others in WC message 22044; denigrating his experience in 21763; accusing him having a 'chest thumping' epistemology and ridiculing his literacy in 21576; ridiculing his attraction to the spiritual in 20423, as well as practically every other 'less blinkered proponent' that had ever visited the list. Why would anyone with a hide less thick than that of a rhinoceros ever wish to visit such a place for 'discussion'? What's happened down the years is that the denizens, led by their chief priest of 'rationality' Der Staudi, have become unaware how one-sided their thinking has become, and so how unbalanced and insulting their 'criticism', and how unappetising a sight this presents to those looking on from outside.
                    >
                    > T.
                    >
                    > Ted Wrinch
                    >
                    > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Oh, and of course they'd like it very much if you came to play too, but without the trolls. So that's, what, 9 years since you've been over there?
                    > >
                    > > T.
                    > >
                    > > Ted Wrinch
                    > >
                    > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > DA Spooner: Well, we don't have a one party government yet.
                    > > > DA Gunther: Of course we do: The Demopublican Party.
                    > > >
                    > > > Careful, you'll have PS accusing you of being 'anti-democratic'!
                    > > >
                    > > > Over on WC, whist continuing to insult anthroposohists and 'Steiner defenders' as usual, they are now reprising the complaint that you observed - that no one comes to talk to them any more and it's boring! But they don't like windbags (me) or those that denigrate PS (everyone) so what do they expect? They are even asking nicely if Daniel Hindes could come back and play; but as far as I can see from the archives he's not been around for over half a decade! It's like watching naughty children smash up their toys and ask for some more…
                    > > >
                    > > > T.
                    > > >
                    > > > Ted Wrinch
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The Deep Agents of the Rocky Mountains
                    > > > > <http://uncletaz.blogspot.com/2009/09/deep-agents-of-rocky-mountains.htm\
                    > > > > l>
                    > > > > DA Spooner: Have we heard from Peking today?
                    > > > > DA Gunther: I dunno, but they sure have the right idea.
                    > > > > DA Spooner: Yep, a one party state with a free market, media control and
                    > > > > everything. No greens squealing about pollution and shit like that. No
                    > > > > weird spirituality running loose. They just wack those goons. Just
                    > > > > wack'em.
                    > > > > DA Gunther: The only thing we don't have here is the media control bit.
                    > > > > We have some control, but it's insufficient.
                    > > > > DA Spooner: Well, we don't have a one party government yet.
                    > > > > DA Gunther: Of course we do: The Demopublican Party.
                    > > > > DA Spooner: There's still some split.
                    > > > > DA Gunther: That's only for the theater, don't worry.
                    > > > > DA Spooner: So you don't know if anyone has heard from Peking today?
                    > > > > DA Gunther: Naah, but I'll ask about it at dinner. I'm having Peking
                    > > > > duck, wanna join me?
                    > > > > DA Spooner: Yea, I'll order mine baked in a sitting position. I love
                    > > > > sitting ducks!
                    > > > > DA Gunther: Like Sitting Bull.
                    > > > > DA Spooner (laughing): Yeah, send all them sitting ducks and bulls on a
                    > > > > Wild West show with Buffalo Bill.
                    > > > > DA Gunther (guffawing hysterically): Quack quack!
                    > > > > DA Spooner: You know what they say, if it walks like a duck, smells like
                    > > > > a duck, talks like a duck....
                    > > > > DA Gunther: Then it's a heretic.
                    > > > > DA Spooner: Exactly. An insurgent.
                    > > > > DA Gunther: Subversive.
                    > > > > DA Spooner: Rebel.
                    > > > > DA Gunther: Enemy combatant.
                    > > > > DA Spooner: Criminal thinker.
                    > > > > DA Gunther: We're gonna get those thoughts, even if they don't write
                    > > > > them down or speak them.
                    > > > > DA Spooner: I know we will.
                    > > > > DA Gunther: We've got the tech, they don't have a chance.After this
                    > > > > conversation, the Deep Agents in the top secret facility inside the
                    > > > > Rockies, strolled into their dining area and asked their Chinese cook to
                    > > > > cook up a couple of sitting Peking ducks.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Tarjei
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch"
                    > > > > <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > All religious experience is an 'hallucination', according to
                    > > > > arch-priest Dawkins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8VaBCikHGs . Since
                    > > > > 'scientific opinion' views such experiences - all of them!- as an
                    > > > > hallucination, something abnormal, it will make sense for them, when
                    > > > > they discover how, to medicate this man back to health by removing from
                    > > > > him what must be a very debilitating, permanent, 50 year long perceptual
                    > > > > derangement. And, of course, as WC believe as religiously in 'scientific
                    > > > > opinion' as this man believes in Christ, they will cheer Dawkins all the
                    > > > > way to the lab…
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > T.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Ted Wrinch
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • ted.wrinch
                    Whoops: we can t know the actions of historical actors should read: we can t know the intentions of historical actors T. Ted Wrinch
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 27, 2012
                      Whoops:

                      'we can't know the actions of historical actors'"

                      should read:

                      'we can't know the intentions of historical actors'

                      T.

                      Ted Wrinch

                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Actually, Joel presents an example of a classic non-discussion between himself and the WC 'machine of rationality' Der Staudi. The non-discussion is caused by a habitual and unexamined epistemological prejudice that Staudi exhibits and Joel questions; the prejudice is part of the larger one of 'scientism', that Joel accurately diagnoses as being caused by 'taking the theories of science as facts' (similar scientism takes the 'theory of evolution', as distinct from the factual evidence that supports it, as 'fact').
                      >
                      > Staudi launches with one of his standard irrelevant-to-the-discussion (which was on interpreting texts) canards of supposed Steiner anti-Semitism:
                      >
                      > Joel:
                      >
                      > "did I leave anything out?"
                      >
                      > Staudi:
                      >
                      > > Yes. You left out Steiner's texts, for one thing, which is unsurprising,
                      > > since you think Steiner's texts don't matter. If you want to know what
                      > > Steiner taught, however, you will need to read his texts. Among other
                      > > things, Steiner taught that there is no reason for Jews to exist in the
                      > > modern world and that it would be best for Jews as a people to come to an
                      > > end. You could find this out for yourself by reading Steiner's works. Yours
                      > > for reading,
                      > >
                      >
                      > Joel:
                      >
                      > "no, you still don't get it ... I understand his meaning better than do you,
                      > and you haven't expressed it, only your biased view of it ...
                      >
                      > "There is nothing outside the text," Derrida
                      >
                      > "Deconstruction generally tries to demonstrate that any text is not a
                      > discrete whole but contains several irreconcilable and contradictory
                      > meanings; that any text therefore has more than one interpretation; that the
                      > text itself links these interpretations inextricably; that the
                      > incompatibility of these interpretations is irreducible; and thus that an
                      > interpretative reading cannot go beyond a certain point" Wikipedia
                      >
                      > The existential question of this line of thinking is whether or not we can
                      > gain insight into what the writer actually meant from the reading of text,
                      > or whether our interpretive intention so biases our potential understanding
                      > that we are forever blind to the writers original meaning.
                      >
                      > Derrida is wrong, by failing to notice the real presence of his own mind.
                      > There is the text *and* his mind. (e.g. Steiner's text and the minds of
                      > his sympathetic and antipathetic readers). Monism is the experience that
                      > both the writer of the text and the reader of the text have the potential to
                      > meet in the vertical - in the world of pure thought itself (being a real
                      > place the mind can perceive, should it choose to make the effort). Thinking
                      > as perception in the thought-world gives us the potential to share "meaning"
                      > in an objective fashion, but the I of the reader has to get out of the way
                      > (renounce reactive feelings, renounce our own habits of content -
                      > pre-thought thoughts - and meaning, and renounce our own I as a participant
                      > ... this coupled with love of the thinking of the other will allow "it to
                      > think in me" - Steiner's formulation, which is brought about by "learning to
                      > think on our knees" - Tomberg's formulation).
                      >
                      > Otherwise text is only a mirror held up to our own biases, prejudices and
                      > pre-thought thoughts. We see only our self in our interpretation - not the
                      > other - the Thou."
                      >
                      > Staudi:
                      >
                      > > I understand his meaning better than do you
                      >
                      >
                      > "You won't understand it at all until you read his texts. Yours for reading,"
                      >
                      > This approach to 'texts' is symptomatic of Staudi's whole reductionist approach to epistemology and is what drives him to say that 'we can't know the actions of historical actors', contrary to the recent assertion of the head of his own Historical Association.
                      >
                      > T.
                      >
                      > Ted Wrinch
                      >
                      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > They've also asked that Joel come back to play, forgetting that when he did last Spring they were nasty to him. He dropped in to wish them an Easter greeting and they accused him of supporting genocide of the Native Americans. The asymmetry of the discussion, -Joel was pleasant, intellectually focussed and poetical engaged - could not have been more apparent, but he had to sign off the list after a few weeks, describing it as a 'war zone' (WC message 18795). And Der Staudi has continued the denigration ever since - such as calling him 'inane' and ridiculing him and many others in WC message 22044; denigrating his experience in 21763; accusing him having a 'chest thumping' epistemology and ridiculing his literacy in 21576; ridiculing his attraction to the spiritual in 20423, as well as practically every other 'less blinkered proponent' that had ever visited the list. Why would anyone with a hide less thick than that of a rhinoceros ever wish to visit such a place for 'discussion'? What's happened down the years is that the denizens, led by their chief priest of 'rationality' Der Staudi, have become unaware how one-sided their thinking has become, and so how unbalanced and insulting their 'criticism', and how unappetising a sight this presents to those looking on from outside.
                      > >
                      > > T.
                      > >
                      > > Ted Wrinch
                      > >
                      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Oh, and of course they'd like it very much if you came to play too, but without the trolls. So that's, what, 9 years since you've been over there?
                      > > >
                      > > > T.
                      > > >
                      > > > Ted Wrinch
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > DA Spooner: Well, we don't have a one party government yet.
                      > > > > DA Gunther: Of course we do: The Demopublican Party.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Careful, you'll have PS accusing you of being 'anti-democratic'!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Over on WC, whist continuing to insult anthroposohists and 'Steiner defenders' as usual, they are now reprising the complaint that you observed - that no one comes to talk to them any more and it's boring! But they don't like windbags (me) or those that denigrate PS (everyone) so what do they expect? They are even asking nicely if Daniel Hindes could come back and play; but as far as I can see from the archives he's not been around for over half a decade! It's like watching naughty children smash up their toys and ask for some more…
                      > > > >
                      > > > > T.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Ted Wrinch
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The Deep Agents of the Rocky Mountains
                      > > > > > <http://uncletaz.blogspot.com/2009/09/deep-agents-of-rocky-mountains.htm\
                      > > > > > l>
                      > > > > > DA Spooner: Have we heard from Peking today?
                      > > > > > DA Gunther: I dunno, but they sure have the right idea.
                      > > > > > DA Spooner: Yep, a one party state with a free market, media control and
                      > > > > > everything. No greens squealing about pollution and shit like that. No
                      > > > > > weird spirituality running loose. They just wack those goons. Just
                      > > > > > wack'em.
                      > > > > > DA Gunther: The only thing we don't have here is the media control bit.
                      > > > > > We have some control, but it's insufficient.
                      > > > > > DA Spooner: Well, we don't have a one party government yet.
                      > > > > > DA Gunther: Of course we do: The Demopublican Party.
                      > > > > > DA Spooner: There's still some split.
                      > > > > > DA Gunther: That's only for the theater, don't worry.
                      > > > > > DA Spooner: So you don't know if anyone has heard from Peking today?
                      > > > > > DA Gunther: Naah, but I'll ask about it at dinner. I'm having Peking
                      > > > > > duck, wanna join me?
                      > > > > > DA Spooner: Yea, I'll order mine baked in a sitting position. I love
                      > > > > > sitting ducks!
                      > > > > > DA Gunther: Like Sitting Bull.
                      > > > > > DA Spooner (laughing): Yeah, send all them sitting ducks and bulls on a
                      > > > > > Wild West show with Buffalo Bill.
                      > > > > > DA Gunther (guffawing hysterically): Quack quack!
                      > > > > > DA Spooner: You know what they say, if it walks like a duck, smells like
                      > > > > > a duck, talks like a duck....
                      > > > > > DA Gunther: Then it's a heretic.
                      > > > > > DA Spooner: Exactly. An insurgent.
                      > > > > > DA Gunther: Subversive.
                      > > > > > DA Spooner: Rebel.
                      > > > > > DA Gunther: Enemy combatant.
                      > > > > > DA Spooner: Criminal thinker.
                      > > > > > DA Gunther: We're gonna get those thoughts, even if they don't write
                      > > > > > them down or speak them.
                      > > > > > DA Spooner: I know we will.
                      > > > > > DA Gunther: We've got the tech, they don't have a chance.After this
                      > > > > > conversation, the Deep Agents in the top secret facility inside the
                      > > > > > Rockies, strolled into their dining area and asked their Chinese cook to
                      > > > > > cook up a couple of sitting Peking ducks.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Tarjei
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch"
                      > > > > > <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > All religious experience is an 'hallucination', according to
                      > > > > > arch-priest Dawkins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8VaBCikHGs . Since
                      > > > > > 'scientific opinion' views such experiences - all of them!- as an
                      > > > > > hallucination, something abnormal, it will make sense for them, when
                      > > > > > they discover how, to medicate this man back to health by removing from
                      > > > > > him what must be a very debilitating, permanent, 50 year long perceptual
                      > > > > > derangement. And, of course, as WC believe as religiously in 'scientific
                      > > > > > opinion' as this man believes in Christ, they will cheer Dawkins all the
                      > > > > > way to the lab…
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > T.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Ted Wrinch
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • elfuncle
                      ... Actually, I picked this up 30 years ago from Harry Browne, an American anarchist, in the book How I Found Freedom In An Unfree World
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 27, 2012
                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > DA Spooner: Well, we don't have a one party government yet.
                        > DA Gunther: Of course we do: The Demopublican Party.
                        >
                        > Careful, you'll have PS accusing you of being 'anti-democratic'!


                        Actually, I picked this up 30 years ago from Harry Browne, an American anarchist, in the book How I Found Freedom In An Unfree World . The title is better than the substance, I think, but there are many goodies in that book.

                        > Over on WC, whist continuing to insult anthroposohists and 'Steiner defenders' as usual, they are now reprising the complaint that you observed - that no one comes to talk to them any more and it's boring! But they don't like windbags (me) or those that denigrate PS (everyone) so what do they expect? They are even asking nicely if Daniel Hindes could come back and play; but as far as I can see from the archives he's not been around for over half a decade! It's like watching naughty children smash up their toys and ask for some more…

                        Yea, I just read, "It's just a shame that all we get is the odd wacko" (Naz Quadri) and snickered wickedly. (Sorry about that, it's a relapse on my part; I'll get back to the compassionate lovin' as usual, promise.) The Sugar Cherubs get exactly what they deserve, and the Adorable Darlings get what they deserve, and we are immeasurably amused. It's a win-win-win situation. Can't beat that.

                        Tarjei
                      • elfuncle
                        ... but without the trolls. So that s, what, 9 years since you ve been over there? 11 years (2001). I served my first five month tour of trench warfare in 1999
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 27, 2012
                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Oh, and of course they'd like it very much if you came to play too, but without the trolls. So that's, what, 9 years since you've been over there?


                          11 years (2001). I served my first five month tour of trench warfare in 1999 and my second (of the same duration) two years later. I did some discussing here at the AT between 2003 and 2005; after that I quit discussions and since then I've only been playing and intend to keep it that way. The idea of being invited to an orgy of insults again, to be reprimand by DD for ad homining someone when you've only been ad argumenting their messages, get a week on the bench as a punishment to promise to mend our ways, and put up with the biases and tunnel visions of nasty and dysfunctional fanatics, not to mention that homicidal maniac who is dreaming about murdering you -- well, that kind of joke can only appeal to a truly spaced out, masochistic, insane Adorable Darling. (I'm not mentioning any names, because then our private inboxes will be bombarded with another round of obscene spam as usual.)

                          Tarjei
                        • ted.wrinch
                          Yes, the orgy of insults is off-putting, and biases and tunnel visions of nasty and dysfunctional fanatics sums it up pretty well. As far as insane
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 27, 2012
                            Yes, the "orgy of insults" is off-putting, and "biases and tunnel visions of nasty and dysfunctional fanatics" sums it up pretty well. As far as "insane Adorable Darlings" go, the Doktor may provide insight for what has happened to them:

                            "Also each person can fully understand the pronouncements of the spiritual investigator, and impart them further. The spheres of spiritual science are of such a nature that the seer cannot coldly face materialistic things; in addition, the followers of the investigator always meet him with definite sympathies and antipathies. This comes strongly into consideration, in the handling on of its communications. Souls often yearn for its information, but are as often as lazy in applying expressly a right meaning and understanding to them, thereby meeting the investigator in the necessary critical mood. Then belief appears in place of objective examination, and takes what is said on authority, until finally a kind of deceptive Authority develops. If the spiritual investigator must always be watchful of himself in his activity, then the listeners also should hold themselves awake, constantly exercising a self-examination, lest they receive the assertions of the spiritual investigator with belief, prejudice, and deluded authority. A suspicious source of error arises if the follower does not school his power of judgment, and instead of these troublesome intellectual efforts, comfortably accepts everything on belief in authority. If the investigator communicates important things, he will easily be able to exercise a harmful influence on his followers, unless above all things he attempts to appeal to their insight. Otherwise, their ordinary healthy human understanding is overpowered and ruined. Whereas the insight of the hearers should be strengthened, the investigator is then easily tempted not to awaken this, but merely to evoke belief. The ideal condition on the contrary would be when the followers make it as difficult as possible for the investigator, laying on him the highest demands, when he imprints the knowledge of spiritual science in the concepts and ideas of the healthy human understanding, thereby making it impossible for any charlatans to appear by his side, as a conscientious and sincere spiritual investigator. For this it is necessary that the listeners carefully hold watch over themselves sharpening more and more their insight and their healthy human understanding, so that they can distinguish the real investigator from the charlatan. The soul-mood of credible followers is not favourable in this and there hardly exists any other remedy here than the existence of conscientious investigators who disdain to procure for themselves a facile audience, and merely pursue the investigation of truth. Otherwise, listeners, lazy or lacking in judgment, throw everything together or else, if they cannot enter sufficiently unprejudiced into the knowledge, cannot distinguish between error and conscientiousness."

                            Errors of Spiritual Investigation, 1912

                            So, the Adorable Darlings have taken what he said 'on authority', without sufficient 'self examination' or 'necessary critical mood' and so, as he says, "their ordinary healthy human understanding is overpowered and ruined".

                            It's worth pointing out that, over on WC, all 'Steiner defenders' are regularly berated for being beholden to a relationship to Steiner's thought of supposedly cult-like, credulous, uncritical, irrational, and authoritarian guru-ship. As we can see from this lecture excerpt, and there are scores of similar quotes in the Steiner corpus, the WC opinion isn't really borne out by the evidence.

                            T.

                            Ted Wrinch.

                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch"
                            > <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Oh, and of course they'd like it very much if you came to play too,
                            > but without the trolls. So that's, what, 9 years since you've been over
                            > there?
                            >
                            > 11 years (2001). I served my first five month tour of trench warfare in
                            > 1999 and my second (of the same duration) two years later. I did some
                            > discussing here at the AT between 2003 and 2005; after that I quit
                            > discussions and since then I've only been playing and intend to keep it
                            > that way. The idea of being invited to an orgy of insults again, to be
                            > reprimand by DD for ad homining someone when you've only been ad
                            > argumenting their messages, get a week on the bench as a punishment to
                            > promise to mend our ways, and put up with the biases and tunnel visions
                            > of nasty and dysfunctional fanatics, not to mention that homicidal
                            > maniac who is dreaming about murdering you -- well, that kind of joke
                            > can only appeal to a truly spaced out, masochistic, insane Adorable
                            > Darling. (I'm not mentioning any names, because then our private inboxes
                            > will be bombarded with another round of obscene spam as usual.)
                            >
                            > Tarjei
                            >
                          • elfuncle
                            You ve captured an important aspect of the AD syndrome (=Adorable Darling syndrome) in a nutshell with this excellent RS quote. Some of the most vocal and
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 27, 2012
                              You've captured an important aspect of the AD syndrome (=Adorable Darling syndrome) in a nutshell with this excellent RS quote. Some of the most vocal and aggressively nutty ADs (at least on the internet) also carry another aspect that is of supreme interest and delight to the Sugar Cherubs, namely racism -- especially anti-Semitism and even holocaust denial. Apart from the fact that such racial prejudices and falsifications of history -- the latter is something they share with PS, whom I have often compared to David Irving -- is a pre-exising condition in the ADs that is corroborated, not by the works of Rudolf Steiner, but by those of Gennady Bondarev, the only person in history (to the best of my knowledge) whose membership in the AS has been revoked by the Vorstand. Nevertheless, some Adorable Darlings have a very strong attraction to Bondarev and share his anti-Semitism, his holocaust denial (or revisionism, which also places him side by side with PS), and his notion of a global Jewish conspiracy.

                              This plays extremely well into the hands of the Sugar Cherubs, who have always been excessively obsessed with "anthroposophical" racism, which they claim to be the rule because anthroposophy is "racist to the core," and they are still pestering "latter-day Steiner admirers" to confess -- if not their personal racism, then at least the racism of Steiner, anthroposophy, and Waldorf and the racist properties of biodynamic tomatoes and anthroposophical medical herbs and so on. This is what they want "serious" anthroposophists to "discuss." 

                              What they get, of course, is the acid-trippin' Rudolf-and-Adolf admirers, the fans of David Irving and Gennady Bondarev who are more than willing to confess their Nazi sympathies and holocaust denial and every other wet cherub-dream. And I love it, my cup runneth over, which is why I always try to dispatch Adorable Darlings into Sugarland on one way tickets. Both in terms of historical falsification and prejudices, the AD and the SCs are almost like two drops of water. The Sugar Cherubs talk about anthroposophists just the way Goebbels and Himmler talked about Jews. They're Nazis at heart, and the Sugarland closets don't have skeletons; instead they have swastikas, huge portraits of prominent Nazi leaders, and multiple copies of Mein Kampf, which is their major guide for warfare against anthroposophy.

                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:

                              > It's worth pointing out that, over on WC, all 'Steiner defenders' are regularly berated for being beholden to a relationship to Steiner's thought of supposedly cult-like, credulous, uncritical, irrational, and authoritarian guru-ship. As we can see from this lecture excerpt, and there are scores of similar quotes in the Steiner corpus, the WC opinion isn't really borne out by the evidence.

                              Yep, I remember very well from those "debating days" in 1999 and 2001, which were really spitting contests with "defenders of the faith" as favored targets, how they went on and on about how important it is to develop and practice self-dependent critical thinking, while refusing to acknowledge the prominence of this element in anthroposophy and never mastering even the slightest ability to be self-critical or self-ironical. They seem totally incapable of laughing at themselves or their ideas and attitudes, and this is one of the hallmarks of fanaticism, which in this case is potentially dangerous and murderous -- something we've already seen. They should stop watching Triumph des Willens so much and start watching Der Untergang instead.

                              Yours for swastikas and switchblades in Sugar Cherub pockets,

                              Tarjei

                              P.S. Oh I almost forgot: These Nazi Cherubs are still very sweet and lovable, and we must continue to pour our affections all over them.
                            • Frank Thomas Smith
                              ... Your knowledge, then, is very limited in this respect. Many people have been expelled from the General Anthroposophical Society, including Ita Wegman, one
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 27, 2012
                                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > You've captured an important aspect of the AD syndrome (=Adorable
                                > Darling syndrome) in a nutshell with this excellent RS quote. Some of
                                > the most vocal and aggressively nutty ADs (at least on the internet)
                                > also carry another aspect that is of supreme interest and delight to the
                                > Sugar Cherubs, namely racism -- especially anti-Semitism and even
                                > holocaust denial. Apart from the fact that such racial prejudices and
                                > falsifications of history -- the latter is something they share with PS,
                                > whom I have often compared to David Irving -- is a pre-exising condition
                                > in the ADs that is corroborated, not by the works of Rudolf Steiner, but
                                > by those of Gennady Bondarev, the only person in history (to the best of
                                > my knowledge) whose membership in the AS has been revoked by the
                                > Vorstand.


                                Your knowledge, then, is very limited in this respect. Many people have been expelled from the General Anthroposophical Society, including Ita Wegman, one of Rudolf Steiner's closest collaborators, and her supporters, including whole national societies. Bondarev may be the only one expelled recently with good reason.
                                Frank
                              • Frank Thomas Smith
                                ... Trading insults is no less off-putting, imo. Frank
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 27, 2012
                                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Yes, the "orgy of insults" is off-putting, and "biases and tunnel visions of nasty and dysfunctional fanatics" sums it up pretty well.

                                  Trading insults is no less off-putting, imo.
                                  Frank
                                • elfuncle
                                  I stand corrected. Tarjei ... of ... the ... and ... PS, ... condition ... but ... best of ... have been expelled from the General Anthroposophical Society,
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 27, 2012
                                    I stand corrected.

                                    Tarjei

                                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <fts.trasla@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@ wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > You've captured an important aspect of the AD syndrome (=Adorable
                                    > > Darling syndrome) in a nutshell with this excellent RS quote. Some of
                                    > > the most vocal and aggressively nutty ADs (at least on the internet)
                                    > > also carry another aspect that is of supreme interest and delight to the
                                    > > Sugar Cherubs, namely racism -- especially anti-Semitism and even
                                    > > holocaust denial. Apart from the fact that such racial prejudices and
                                    > > falsifications of history -- the latter is something they share with PS,
                                    > > whom I have often compared to David Irving -- is a pre-exising condition
                                    > > in the ADs that is corroborated, not by the works of Rudolf Steiner, but
                                    > > by those of Gennady Bondarev, the only person in history (to the best of
                                    > > my knowledge) whose membership in the AS has been revoked by the
                                    > > Vorstand.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your knowledge, then, is very limited in this respect. Many people have been expelled from the General Anthroposophical Society, including Ita Wegman, one of Rudolf Steiner's closest collaborators, and her supporters, including whole national societies. Bondarev may be the only one expelled recently with good reason.
                                    > Frank
                                    >

                                  • elfuncle
                                    ... visions of nasty and dysfunctional fanatics sums it up pretty well. ... I know, and I do confess and repent these sins of mine, this relapse into the
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 27, 2012
                                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <fts.trasla@...> wrote:

                                      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" ted.wrinch@ wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Yes, the "orgy of insults" is off-putting, and "biases and tunnel visions of nasty and dysfunctional fanatics" sums it up pretty well.
                                      >
                                      > Trading insults is no less off-putting, imo.

                                      I know, and I do confess and repent these sins of mine, this relapse into the nastiness of old. I'll soon return to Lovathon mode, you'll see. I thank you for prodding my conscience, Brother Frank, with the most profound humility and abject contriteness, and with these heartfelt words I hereby send my most shameful apologies to the sweet, beautiful Sugar Cherubs with a tear in my eye and with a trembling prayer for their forgiveness in my corrupted and luciferic astral body.

                                      Tarjei
                                    • ted.wrinch
                                      Apart from the fact that such racial prejudices and falsifications of history -- the latter is something they share with PS, whom I have often compared to
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 28, 2012
                                        "Apart from the fact that such racial prejudices and falsifications of history -- the latter is something they share with PS, whom I have often compared to David Irving -- is a pre-exising condition in the ADs that is corroborated, not by the works of Rudolf Steiner, but by those of Gennady Bondarev, the only person in history (to the best of my knowledge) whose membership in the AS has been revoked by the Vorstand"

                                        Good point. It *is* a pre-existing condition. And PS does falsify history - I think Joel's analysis on how he reads texts provides a partial explanation of why. I have another good quote from RS on 'real history', with a significant example (a second Mystery of Golgotha), that I may put together, that provides a relative indication of PS's problem as a real historian.

                                        T.

                                        Ted Wrinch

                                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > You've captured an important aspect of the AD syndrome (=Adorable
                                        > Darling syndrome) in a nutshell with this excellent RS quote. Some of
                                        > the most vocal and aggressively nutty ADs (at least on the internet)
                                        > also carry another aspect that is of supreme interest and delight to the
                                        > Sugar Cherubs, namely racism -- especially anti-Semitism and even
                                        > holocaust denial. Apart from the fact that such racial prejudices and
                                        > falsifications of history -- the latter is something they share with PS,
                                        > whom I have often compared to David Irving -- is a pre-exising condition
                                        > in the ADs that is corroborated, not by the works of Rudolf Steiner, but
                                        > by those of Gennady Bondarev, the only person in history (to the best of
                                        > my knowledge) whose membership in the AS has been revoked by the
                                        > Vorstand. Nevertheless, some Adorable Darlings have a very strong
                                        > attraction to Bondarev and share his anti-Semitism, his holocaust denial
                                        > (or revisionism, which also places him side by side with PS), and his
                                        > notion of a global Jewish conspiracy.
                                        >
                                        > This plays extremely well into the hands of the Sugar Cherubs, who have
                                        > always been excessively obsessed with "anthroposophical" racism, which
                                        > they claim to be the rule because anthroposophy is "racist to the core,"
                                        > and they are still pestering "latter-day Steiner admirers" to confess --
                                        > if not their personal racism, then at least the racism of Steiner,
                                        > anthroposophy, and Waldorf and the racist properties of biodynamic
                                        > tomatoes and anthroposophical medical herbs and so on. This is what they
                                        > want "serious" anthroposophists to "discuss."
                                        >
                                        > What they get, of course, is the acid-trippin' Rudolf-and-Adolf
                                        > admirers, the fans of David Irving and Gennady Bondarev who are more
                                        > than willing to confess their Nazi sympathies and holocaust denial and
                                        > every other wet cherub-dream. And I love it, my cup runneth over, which
                                        > is why I always try to dispatch Adorable Darlings into Sugarland on one
                                        > way tickets. Both in terms of historical falsification and prejudices,
                                        > the AD and the SCs are almost like two drops of water. The Sugar Cherubs
                                        > talk about anthroposophists just the way Goebbels and Himmler talked
                                        > about Jews. They're Nazis at heart, and the Sugarland closets don't have
                                        > skeletons; instead they have swastikas, huge portraits of prominent Nazi
                                        > leaders, and multiple copies of Mein Kampf, which is their major guide
                                        > for warfare against anthroposophy.
                                        >
                                        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch"
                                        > <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > It's worth pointing out that, over on WC, all 'Steiner defenders' are
                                        > regularly berated for being beholden to a relationship to Steiner's
                                        > thought of supposedly cult-like, credulous, uncritical, irrational, and
                                        > authoritarian guru-ship. As we can see from this lecture excerpt, and
                                        > there are scores of similar quotes in the Steiner corpus, the WC opinion
                                        > isn't really borne out by the evidence.
                                        >
                                        > Yep, I remember very well from those "debating days" in 1999 and 2001,
                                        > which were really spitting contests with "defenders of the faith" as
                                        > favored targets, how they went on and on about how important it is to
                                        > develop and practice self-dependent critical thinking, while refusing to
                                        > acknowledge the prominence of this element in anthroposophy and never
                                        > mastering even the slightest ability to be self-critical or
                                        > self-ironical. They seem totally incapable of laughing at themselves or
                                        > their ideas and attitudes, and this is one of the hallmarks of
                                        > fanaticism, which in this case is potentially dangerous and murderous --
                                        > something we've already seen. They should stop watching Triumph des
                                        > Willens so much and start watching Der Untergang instead.
                                        >
                                        > Yours for swastikas and switchblades in Sugar Cherub pockets,
                                        >
                                        > Tarjei
                                        >
                                        > P.S. Oh I almost forgot: These Nazi Cherubs are still very sweet and
                                        > lovable, and we must continue to pour our affections all over them.
                                        >
                                      • ted.wrinch
                                        Well, trading insults is off-putting too, but understandable and part of (for most people) the human condition. I think a tour in WC is a good training for
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Mar 28, 2012
                                          Well, 'trading insults' is off-putting too, but understandable and part of (for most people) the human condition. I think a tour in WC is a good training for provoking 'self examination' and 'necessary critical mood'. But not for the regular denizens, who revel in the 'trench warfare', to their own detriment.


                                          T.

                                          Ted Wrinch

                                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <fts.trasla@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Yes, the "orgy of insults" is off-putting, and "biases and tunnel visions of nasty and dysfunctional fanatics" sums it up pretty well.
                                          >
                                          > Trading insults is no less off-putting, imo.
                                          > Frank
                                          >
                                        • elfuncle
                                          ... which ... one ... My cup runneth over indeed. This is what our Beloved Sister wrote recently (March 27): For awhile, they were writing to any pro-Waldorf
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Mar 29, 2012
                                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:

                                            > What they get, of course, is the acid-trippin' Rudolf-and-Adolf
                                            > admirers, the fans of David Irving and Gennady Bondarev who are more
                                            > than willing to confess their Nazi sympathies and holocaust denial and
                                            > every other wet cherub-dream. And I love it, my cup runneth over, which
                                            > is why I always try to dispatch Adorable Darlings into Sugarland on one
                                            > way tickets.


                                            My cup runneth over indeed. This is what our Beloved Sister wrote recently ( March 27) :

                                            "For awhile, they were writing to any pro-Waldorf or pro-anthroposophy person who posted here, to persuade them not to post. I think they gave that up, though. It does seem in recent times that the only ones who post here are serious kooks. It's too bad. There are plenty of intelligent anthros to talk to, but, well, they don't like us."

                                            Although she mentions me by name in this message, recalling that I've said it's a bad idea to feed them input on their own cyber-territory (and I just said it's like giving heroin to junkies instead of vitamins and biodynamic chow), I've never written anybody in private telling them what to do or not to do. I have a hunch who it may be (and no, it's not that most notorious and obscene Adorable Darling spam terrorist), but it's not an AD at all, so I ain't snitchin' -- yada yada nana-na-na-naaanaa.

                                            The Sugar Cherubs can never understand why they're getting nuts, bananas, fruitcakes, space cadets, and fellow basket cases as long as they're in denial of karma. It's their karma, that's basically all there's to it. Like attracting like in this case, not opposites like they mistakenly believe. It's their nemesis, their destiny, the judgment of the gods, for them to have nuts and fruitcakes and space cakes as companions. Remember what the Good Book says, you are your brother's and your sister's keeper, and the Sugar Cherubs have been charged with the responsibility by heavenly Powers to look after those Adorable Darlings and learn to love them, just like we ourselves love the Sugar Cherubs, and so do all those intelligent anthros Sister mentions. She's all wrong about them not liking them: Intelligent anthros LOVE the Sugar Cherubs!
                                            "For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them." ( -- Luke 6:32)




                                            And here are some of our most beloved Sugar Cherubs:



                                            Tarjei
                                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.