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Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Philosophy re-loaded

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  • Maurice McCarthy
    You ve got a point Ted. I ll have to think it over to see if I can assimilate it to my understanding. The three hierarchies control the subjective, objective
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 22, 2011
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      You've got a point Ted. I'll have to think it over to see if I can
      assimilate it to my understanding.

      The three hierarchies control the subjective, objective and eternal
      worlds. This leaves me with a mystery to chew on, the nature of the
      objective hierarchy.

      Thanks
      Maurice


      On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 02:45:48PM -0000, ted.wrinch wrote:
      > I didn't think that the middle hierarchy lived in time. My understanding is that time began with the series of planetary incarnations that led to our own. The first such incarnation was that of old Saturn, when the archai were going through an incarnation equivalent to our own on earth. For this reason I understand the the third hierarchy, from angel to archai, live in time and the higher not.
      >
      > Spiritual battles being reflected in the physical is similar to the old alchemical notion of 'as above, so below'. Matter is condensed spirit and reflects spirit. A conflict between opposing spiritual powers will be expected to be similarly reflected into this world. Powers that act in the soul world, the third hierarchy, have effects in our own. These effects will be more or less conscious according to our knowledge and degree of clairvoyance.
      >
      > T.
      >
      > Ted Wrinch
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Maurice McCarthy <manselton@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Perhaps I can throw in my 2 cents-worth here.
      > >
      > > Consider what it means to gain knowledge from mere experience. First
      > > comes the content of experience then the application of thinking to
      > > that. Finally, when we work out the truth of the experience then we
      > > have knowledge. In this manner a state of awareness is transformed
      > > into explanation - knowledge in the proper sense.
      > >
      > > Some sense of sequence is necessary to knowledge, necessary to over
      > > come our subjectivity. Time is abstract subjectivity whereas space is
      > > abstract objectivity. (Hegel.)
      > >
      > > It follows that those spiritual beings who are beings of knowledge
      > > must have some sort of consciousness time. It is necessary to have a
      > > distinction between experience or perception and thinking. Therefore
      > > the second and third hierarchies must be temporal. That is the angels
      > > of Wisdom, Movement or Virtue, Form, Archai, Archangels and Angels all
      > > participate in time.
      > >
      > > You have to reach the eternals who have no need of time, no need of
      > > knowledge because they only intuit. The Angels of Love, Harmony and
      > > Will endure eternally, beyond time.
      > >
      > > Regards
      > > Maurice
      > >
      > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 06:39:12PM -0800, Michael Gorbachev wrote:
      > > > Dear Ted Wrench, Kim, Tarjei,
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Now a spiritual battle - what exactly is that. There is now maiming and killing inthe spirit world as I understand it. I have heard so many times (or read), that there was this battle or that battle, but whenever I ask, how these battles are fought and one, no-one can give me an answer.
      > > >
      > > > That is one question I would very much like to hear some informed opinion about.
      > > >
      > > > In the same vein, how for example can one say a battle was fought and one, say in the 15th Centur, and ever since that time, ahrimanic beings unfolded their activity on the Earth. How is there any correlation as between time on earth and time in a spiritual sense. Actually, I was of the opinion that there was no time in the spirit realms. Yes would welcome informed opinion on this matter as well.
      > > >
      > > > MG
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ________________________________
      > > > From: ted.wrinch <ted.wrinch@...>
      > > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 1:43
      > > > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Philosophy re-loaded
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >  
      > > > One of my local friends is a philosopher -
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >

      --
      Your business will assume vast proportions.
    • Kim
      You are fully right Ted, the Archai s is also called Spirits of Time
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 23, 2011
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        You are fully right Ted, the Archai's is also called Spirits of Time . By the way time as we know it is connected to the Sun and Earth own rotation, in the spiritual world time is meassured in state-changes, they don't sit idle waiting for the right time.
        The middle hierarchy is outside time, so they can interact whenever, if necessary, through the third hierarchy.
        Kim

        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
        >
        > I didn't think that the middle hierarchy lived in time. My understanding is that time began with the series of planetary incarnations that led to our own. The first such incarnation was that of old Saturn, when the archai were going through an incarnation equivalent to our own on earth. For this reason I understand the the third hierarchy, from angel to archai, live in time and the higher not.
        >
        > Spiritual battles being reflected in the physical is similar to the old alchemical notion of 'as above, so below'. Matter is condensed spirit and reflects spirit. A conflict between opposing spiritual powers will be expected to be similarly reflected into this world. Powers that act in the soul world, the third hierarchy, have effects in our own. These effects will be more or less conscious according to our knowledge and degree of clairvoyance.
        >
        > T.
        >
        > Ted Wrinch
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Maurice McCarthy manselton@ wrote:
        > >
        > > Perhaps I can throw in my 2 cents-worth here.
        > >
        > > Consider what it means to gain knowledge from mere experience. First
        > > comes the content of experience then the application of thinking to
        > > that. Finally, when we work out the truth of the experience then we
        > > have knowledge. In this manner a state of awareness is transformed
        > > into explanation - knowledge in the proper sense.
        > >
        > > Some sense of sequence is necessary to knowledge, necessary to over
        > > come our subjectivity. Time is abstract subjectivity whereas space is
        > > abstract objectivity. (Hegel.)
        > >
        > > It follows that those spiritual beings who are beings of knowledge
        > > must have some sort of consciousness time. It is necessary to have a
        > > distinction between experience or perception and thinking. Therefore
        > > the second and third hierarchies must be temporal. That is the angels
        > > of Wisdom, Movement or Virtue, Form, Archai, Archangels and Angels all
        > > participate in time.
        > >
        > > You have to reach the eternals who have no need of time, no need of
        > > knowledge because they only intuit. The Angels of Love, Harmony and
        > > Will endure eternally, beyond time.
        > >
        > > Regards
        > > Maurice
        > >
        > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 06:39:12PM -0800, Michael Gorbachev wrote:
        > > > Dear Ted Wrench, Kim, Tarjei,
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Now a spiritual battle - what exactly is that. There is now maiming and killing inthe spirit world as I understand it. I have heard so many times (or read), that there was this battle or that battle, but whenever I ask, how these battles are fought and one, no-one can give me an answer.
        > > >
        > > > That is one question I would very much like to hear some informed opinion about.
        > > >
        > > > In the same vein, how for example can one say a battle was fought and one, say in the 15th Centur, and ever since that time, ahrimanic beings unfolded their activity on the Earth. How is there any correlation as between time on earth and time in a spiritual sense. Actually, I was of the opinion that there was no time in the spirit realms. Yes would welcome informed opinion on this matter as well.
        > > >
        > > > MG
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ________________________________
        > > > From: ted.wrinch ted.wrinch@
        > > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 1:43
        > > > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Philosophy re-loaded
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >  
        > > > One of my local friends is a philosopher -
        > >
        >
      • Kim
        Yes, intriguing. Our lower I exist in the Archai s lowest part, in time, our higher I exist in the lowest part of the spirits of form, which is out of time,
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 23, 2011
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          Yes, intriguing.
          Our lower I exist in the Archai's lowest part, in time, our higher I
          exist in the lowest part of the spirits of form, which is out of time,
          interesting.
          Kim

          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Maurice McCarthy
          <manselton@...> wrote:
          >
          > You've got a point Ted. I'll have to think it over to see if I can
          > assimilate it to my understanding.
          >
          > The three hierarchies control the subjective, objective and eternal
          > worlds. This leaves me with a mystery to chew on, the nature of the
          > objective hierarchy.
          >
          > Thanks
          > Maurice
          >
          >
          > On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 02:45:48PM -0000, ted.wrinch wrote:
          > > I didn't think that the middle hierarchy lived in time. My
          understanding is that time began with the series of planetary
          incarnations that led to our own. The first such incarnation was that of
          old Saturn, when the archai were going through an incarnation equivalent
          to our own on earth. For this reason I understand the the third
          hierarchy, from angel to archai, live in time and the higher not.
          > >
          > > Spiritual battles being reflected in the physical is similar to the
          old alchemical notion of 'as above, so below'. Matter is condensed
          spirit and reflects spirit. A conflict between opposing spiritual powers
          will be expected to be similarly reflected into this world. Powers that
          act in the soul world, the third hierarchy, have effects in our own.
          These effects will be more or less conscious according to our knowledge
          and degree of clairvoyance.
          > >
          > > T.
          > >
          > > Ted Wrinch
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Maurice McCarthy
          manselton@ wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Perhaps I can throw in my 2 cents-worth here.
          > > >
          > > > Consider what it means to gain knowledge from mere experience.
          First
          > > > comes the content of experience then the application of thinking
          to
          > > > that. Finally, when we work out the truth of the experience then
          we
          > > > have knowledge. In this manner a state of awareness is transformed
          > > > into explanation - knowledge in the proper sense.
          > > >
          > > > Some sense of sequence is necessary to knowledge, necessary to
          over
          > > > come our subjectivity. Time is abstract subjectivity whereas space
          is
          > > > abstract objectivity. (Hegel.)
          > > >
          > > > It follows that those spiritual beings who are beings of knowledge
          > > > must have some sort of consciousness time. It is necessary to have
          a
          > > > distinction between experience or perception and thinking.
          Therefore
          > > > the second and third hierarchies must be temporal. That is the
          angels
          > > > of Wisdom, Movement or Virtue, Form, Archai, Archangels and Angels
          all
          > > > participate in time.
          > > >
          > > > You have to reach the eternals who have no need of time, no need
          of
          > > > knowledge because they only intuit. The Angels of Love, Harmony
          and
          > > > Will endure eternally, beyond time.
          > > >
          > > > Regards
          > > > Maurice
          > > >
          > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 06:39:12PM -0800, Michael Gorbachev wrote:
          > > > > Dear Ted Wrench, Kim, Tarjei,
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Now a spiritual battle - what exactly is that. There is now
          maiming and killing inthe spirit world as I understand it. I have heard
          so many times (or read), that there was this battle or that battle, but
          whenever I ask, how these battles are fought and one, no-one can give me
          an answer.
          > > > >
          > > > > That is one question I would very much like to hear some
          informed opinion about.
          > > > >
          > > > > In the same vein, how for example can one say a battle was
          fought and one, say in the 15th Centur, and ever since that time,
          ahrimanic beings unfolded their activity on the Earth. How is there any
          correlation as between time on earth and time in a spiritual sense.
          Actually, I was of the opinion that there was no time in the spirit
          realms. Yes would welcome informed opinion on this matter as well.
          > > > >
          > > > > MG
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > ________________________________
          > > > > From: ted.wrinch ted.wrinch@
          > > > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
          > > > > Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 1:43
          > > > > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Philosophy re-loaded
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > One of my local friends is a philosopher -
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > --
          > Your business will assume vast proportions.
          >
        • Kim
          Dear Michael, First, killing can only happen in the physical world, you can t die in the spiritual world. I think that battle is a wrong word, it s descriptive
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 23, 2011
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            Dear Michael,
            First, killing can only happen in the physical world, you can't die in
            the spiritual world.

            I think that battle is a wrong word, it's descriptive and symbolizes
            certain spiritual happenings.
            The spiritual world is hierarchic, our spiritual layers are part of
            higher beings, and the higher beings above us is part of the beings
            above them. The Luciferic beings above man was part of an Angelic being,
            but they were thrown down onto Earth as their Angelic being raised. In
            the same way the Ahrimanian beings were cast up to Earth when the being
            above them raised. Both Luciferic and Ahrimanic beings were without a
            higher being, they were without guidance, so they found man instead, and
            thats were the fight is, in man.
            Kim

            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Michael Gorbachev
            <berlin194533@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Ted Wrench, Kim, Tarjei,
            >
            >
            > Now a spiritual battle - what exactly is that. There is now maiming
            and killing inthe spirit world as I understand it. I have heard so many
            times (or read), that there was this battle or that battle, but whenever
            I ask, how these battles are fought and one, no-one can give me an
            answer.
            >
            > That is one question I would very much like to hear some informed
            opinion about.
            >
            > In the same vein, how for example can one say a battle was fought and
            one, say in the 15th Centur, and ever since that time, ahrimanic beings
            unfolded their activity on the Earth. How is there any correlation as
            between time on earth and time in a spiritual sense. Actually, I was of
            the opinion that there was no time in the spirit realms. Yes would
            welcome informed opinion on this matter as well.
            >
            > MG
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: ted.wrinch ted.wrinch@...
            > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 1:43
            > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Philosophy re-loaded
            >
            >
            > Â
            > One of my local friends is a philosopher - a sort of professional in
            the old Greek sense and he's worked, by himself, all his life on the
            philosophical issues of our age. He's perhaps the first trained thinker
            in this field I've had the pleasure of having discussions with, and I've
            found it rewarding. In a similar vein, I've been impressed with Jeshua
            Ben-Aharon's work and he provided a an illuminating summary of this work
            in a talk at Colmar he gave this Spring. There are many ideas and themes
            in the work that should resonate with the interests of this list. A few
            quotes caught my eye:
            >
            > "The first German thinker who was acutely aware that the time
            of German idealism and Goethe's time had gone forever and cannot
            be revived was of course the great and tragic Nietzsche. He
            literally lost his mind in his efforts to find new, un-foreseen
            venues to spiritualize thinking."
            >
            > "In his destiny as the last German thinker Heidegger embodies the
            destiny of his people. He could not rest content with phenomenology, and
            justifiably so; nor could he open himself to the new impulse working in
            the direction of The Philosophy of Freedom. Instead, he transforms
            Husserl's phenomenology backward instead of forward, to create in German
            intellectual life a powerful and highly suggestive intellectual
            Umstülpung (a reversal inside out) of The Philosophy of Freedom."
            >
            > He goes to say that this death of German thought - something that has
            been obviously true to me for decades now, but no one mentions - causes
            a re-birth of thought in France, which much of his essay essays (hah!).
            This is new to me as I'm normally pretty dismissive of French post-war
            thought (de-constructionism, post-structuralism - bah!).
            >
            > A further quote for thought:
            >
            > "The greatest of spiritual battles was preordained but never fought in
            history, because the spiritual battle of the 20th century, as I
            mentioned above, was decided for the worst early on. When in the second
            half of the century and especially towards its end the great culmination
            of anthroposophy should have taken place, only the other stream was
            culminating, alone. Its true opponent was simply not present out there
            to fight, because its decisive Michaelic battle was lost already in the
            beginning of the 20th century.
            >
            > However, this was only the first century of Michael's present age as
            Zeitgeist, with the first of three great battles, and so many smaller
            ones in between! Presently we are humbly striving to prepare some
            suitable starting points for the second great battleâ€"the battle
            of the 21st century. Now that we are seriously working on
            self-transformation, and with it on true spiritualization of the
            intellect, we are strongly attracted to our rivals, or to their legacy,
            because our living striving is asking for a true dialogue- battle,
            without which it cannot thrive and develop further. And we will have at
            our side Deleuze's being, leading, and the beings of his colleagues."
            >
            > On Steiner:
            >
            > "For the very first time in history a human being was individually
            able to realize, in and through the spiritualization of the intellect,
            in and through pure thinking, an actual production and creation of the
            eternal, moral, spiritual substance of a human individuality as a
            genuine self-conscious spirit- reality. And he could achieve this
            remarkable deed as a free and modern human being, without depending on
            any given mystical or atavistic supersensible consciousness or esoteric
            traditions."
            >
            > He seems to be arguing here that the WC are right: Steiner did not
            have direct access to the spiritual worlds when he wrote PoF. We know
            Steiner did have such access when he was younger - which WC denies - but
            perhaps he did lose it, beyond a memory of its existence, as he
            progressed through his youth (I seem to remember him talking of drunken
            binges in this period in his auto-biography to kill his native
            clairvoyance).
            >
            > Anthroposophy & Contemporary Philosophy in Dialogue:Â Observations
            on the Spiritualization of ThinkingÂ
            >
            > http://www.ybasite.org/resources/being-human-2011-03-YBA-Colmar.pdf
            >
            > T.
            >
            > Ted Wrinch
            >
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