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  • ted.wrinch
    I didn t think that the middle hierarchy lived in time. My understanding is that time began with the series of planetary incarnations that led to our own. The
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 22, 2011
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      I didn't think that the middle hierarchy lived in time. My understanding is that time began with the series of planetary incarnations that led to our own. The first such incarnation was that of old Saturn, when the archai were going through an incarnation equivalent to our own on earth. For this reason I understand the the third hierarchy, from angel to archai, live in time and the higher not.

      Spiritual battles being reflected in the physical is similar to the old alchemical notion of 'as above, so below'. Matter is condensed spirit and reflects spirit. A conflict between opposing spiritual powers will be expected to be similarly reflected into this world. Powers that act in the soul world, the third hierarchy, have effects in our own. These effects will be more or less conscious according to our knowledge and degree of clairvoyance.

      T.

      Ted Wrinch




      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Maurice McCarthy <manselton@...> wrote:
      >
      > Perhaps I can throw in my 2 cents-worth here.
      >
      > Consider what it means to gain knowledge from mere experience. First
      > comes the content of experience then the application of thinking to
      > that. Finally, when we work out the truth of the experience then we
      > have knowledge. In this manner a state of awareness is transformed
      > into explanation - knowledge in the proper sense.
      >
      > Some sense of sequence is necessary to knowledge, necessary to over
      > come our subjectivity. Time is abstract subjectivity whereas space is
      > abstract objectivity. (Hegel.)
      >
      > It follows that those spiritual beings who are beings of knowledge
      > must have some sort of consciousness time. It is necessary to have a
      > distinction between experience or perception and thinking. Therefore
      > the second and third hierarchies must be temporal. That is the angels
      > of Wisdom, Movement or Virtue, Form, Archai, Archangels and Angels all
      > participate in time.
      >
      > You have to reach the eternals who have no need of time, no need of
      > knowledge because they only intuit. The Angels of Love, Harmony and
      > Will endure eternally, beyond time.
      >
      > Regards
      > Maurice
      >
      > On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 06:39:12PM -0800, Michael Gorbachev wrote:
      > > Dear Ted Wrench, Kim, Tarjei,
      > >
      > >
      > > Now a spiritual battle - what exactly is that. There is now maiming and killing inthe spirit world as I understand it. I have heard so many times (or read), that there was this battle or that battle, but whenever I ask, how these battles are fought and one, no-one can give me an answer.
      > >
      > > That is one question I would very much like to hear some informed opinion about.
      > >
      > > In the same vein, how for example can one say a battle was fought and one, say in the 15th Centur, and ever since that time, ahrimanic beings unfolded their activity on the Earth. How is there any correlation as between time on earth and time in a spiritual sense. Actually, I was of the opinion that there was no time in the spirit realms. Yes would welcome informed opinion on this matter as well.
      > >
      > > MG
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: ted.wrinch <ted.wrinch@...>
      > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 1:43
      > > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Philosophy re-loaded
      > >
      > >
      > >  
      > > One of my local friends is a philosopher -
      >
    • Maurice McCarthy
      You ve got a point Ted. I ll have to think it over to see if I can assimilate it to my understanding. The three hierarchies control the subjective, objective
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 22, 2011
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        You've got a point Ted. I'll have to think it over to see if I can
        assimilate it to my understanding.

        The three hierarchies control the subjective, objective and eternal
        worlds. This leaves me with a mystery to chew on, the nature of the
        objective hierarchy.

        Thanks
        Maurice


        On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 02:45:48PM -0000, ted.wrinch wrote:
        > I didn't think that the middle hierarchy lived in time. My understanding is that time began with the series of planetary incarnations that led to our own. The first such incarnation was that of old Saturn, when the archai were going through an incarnation equivalent to our own on earth. For this reason I understand the the third hierarchy, from angel to archai, live in time and the higher not.
        >
        > Spiritual battles being reflected in the physical is similar to the old alchemical notion of 'as above, so below'. Matter is condensed spirit and reflects spirit. A conflict between opposing spiritual powers will be expected to be similarly reflected into this world. Powers that act in the soul world, the third hierarchy, have effects in our own. These effects will be more or less conscious according to our knowledge and degree of clairvoyance.
        >
        > T.
        >
        > Ted Wrinch
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Maurice McCarthy <manselton@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Perhaps I can throw in my 2 cents-worth here.
        > >
        > > Consider what it means to gain knowledge from mere experience. First
        > > comes the content of experience then the application of thinking to
        > > that. Finally, when we work out the truth of the experience then we
        > > have knowledge. In this manner a state of awareness is transformed
        > > into explanation - knowledge in the proper sense.
        > >
        > > Some sense of sequence is necessary to knowledge, necessary to over
        > > come our subjectivity. Time is abstract subjectivity whereas space is
        > > abstract objectivity. (Hegel.)
        > >
        > > It follows that those spiritual beings who are beings of knowledge
        > > must have some sort of consciousness time. It is necessary to have a
        > > distinction between experience or perception and thinking. Therefore
        > > the second and third hierarchies must be temporal. That is the angels
        > > of Wisdom, Movement or Virtue, Form, Archai, Archangels and Angels all
        > > participate in time.
        > >
        > > You have to reach the eternals who have no need of time, no need of
        > > knowledge because they only intuit. The Angels of Love, Harmony and
        > > Will endure eternally, beyond time.
        > >
        > > Regards
        > > Maurice
        > >
        > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 06:39:12PM -0800, Michael Gorbachev wrote:
        > > > Dear Ted Wrench, Kim, Tarjei,
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Now a spiritual battle - what exactly is that. There is now maiming and killing inthe spirit world as I understand it. I have heard so many times (or read), that there was this battle or that battle, but whenever I ask, how these battles are fought and one, no-one can give me an answer.
        > > >
        > > > That is one question I would very much like to hear some informed opinion about.
        > > >
        > > > In the same vein, how for example can one say a battle was fought and one, say in the 15th Centur, and ever since that time, ahrimanic beings unfolded their activity on the Earth. How is there any correlation as between time on earth and time in a spiritual sense. Actually, I was of the opinion that there was no time in the spirit realms. Yes would welcome informed opinion on this matter as well.
        > > >
        > > > MG
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ________________________________
        > > > From: ted.wrinch <ted.wrinch@...>
        > > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 1:43
        > > > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Philosophy re-loaded
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >  
        > > > One of my local friends is a philosopher -
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Your business will assume vast proportions.
      • Kim
        You are fully right Ted, the Archai s is also called Spirits of Time
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 23, 2011
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          You are fully right Ted, the Archai's is also called Spirits of Time . By the way time as we know it is connected to the Sun and Earth own rotation, in the spiritual world time is meassured in state-changes, they don't sit idle waiting for the right time.
          The middle hierarchy is outside time, so they can interact whenever, if necessary, through the third hierarchy.
          Kim

          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
          >
          > I didn't think that the middle hierarchy lived in time. My understanding is that time began with the series of planetary incarnations that led to our own. The first such incarnation was that of old Saturn, when the archai were going through an incarnation equivalent to our own on earth. For this reason I understand the the third hierarchy, from angel to archai, live in time and the higher not.
          >
          > Spiritual battles being reflected in the physical is similar to the old alchemical notion of 'as above, so below'. Matter is condensed spirit and reflects spirit. A conflict between opposing spiritual powers will be expected to be similarly reflected into this world. Powers that act in the soul world, the third hierarchy, have effects in our own. These effects will be more or less conscious according to our knowledge and degree of clairvoyance.
          >
          > T.
          >
          > Ted Wrinch
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Maurice McCarthy manselton@ wrote:
          > >
          > > Perhaps I can throw in my 2 cents-worth here.
          > >
          > > Consider what it means to gain knowledge from mere experience. First
          > > comes the content of experience then the application of thinking to
          > > that. Finally, when we work out the truth of the experience then we
          > > have knowledge. In this manner a state of awareness is transformed
          > > into explanation - knowledge in the proper sense.
          > >
          > > Some sense of sequence is necessary to knowledge, necessary to over
          > > come our subjectivity. Time is abstract subjectivity whereas space is
          > > abstract objectivity. (Hegel.)
          > >
          > > It follows that those spiritual beings who are beings of knowledge
          > > must have some sort of consciousness time. It is necessary to have a
          > > distinction between experience or perception and thinking. Therefore
          > > the second and third hierarchies must be temporal. That is the angels
          > > of Wisdom, Movement or Virtue, Form, Archai, Archangels and Angels all
          > > participate in time.
          > >
          > > You have to reach the eternals who have no need of time, no need of
          > > knowledge because they only intuit. The Angels of Love, Harmony and
          > > Will endure eternally, beyond time.
          > >
          > > Regards
          > > Maurice
          > >
          > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 06:39:12PM -0800, Michael Gorbachev wrote:
          > > > Dear Ted Wrench, Kim, Tarjei,
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Now a spiritual battle - what exactly is that. There is now maiming and killing inthe spirit world as I understand it. I have heard so many times (or read), that there was this battle or that battle, but whenever I ask, how these battles are fought and one, no-one can give me an answer.
          > > >
          > > > That is one question I would very much like to hear some informed opinion about.
          > > >
          > > > In the same vein, how for example can one say a battle was fought and one, say in the 15th Centur, and ever since that time, ahrimanic beings unfolded their activity on the Earth. How is there any correlation as between time on earth and time in a spiritual sense. Actually, I was of the opinion that there was no time in the spirit realms. Yes would welcome informed opinion on this matter as well.
          > > >
          > > > MG
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ________________________________
          > > > From: ted.wrinch ted.wrinch@
          > > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
          > > > Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 1:43
          > > > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Philosophy re-loaded
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >  
          > > > One of my local friends is a philosopher -
          > >
          >
        • Kim
          Yes, intriguing. Our lower I exist in the Archai s lowest part, in time, our higher I exist in the lowest part of the spirits of form, which is out of time,
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 23, 2011
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            Yes, intriguing.
            Our lower I exist in the Archai's lowest part, in time, our higher I
            exist in the lowest part of the spirits of form, which is out of time,
            interesting.
            Kim

            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Maurice McCarthy
            <manselton@...> wrote:
            >
            > You've got a point Ted. I'll have to think it over to see if I can
            > assimilate it to my understanding.
            >
            > The three hierarchies control the subjective, objective and eternal
            > worlds. This leaves me with a mystery to chew on, the nature of the
            > objective hierarchy.
            >
            > Thanks
            > Maurice
            >
            >
            > On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 02:45:48PM -0000, ted.wrinch wrote:
            > > I didn't think that the middle hierarchy lived in time. My
            understanding is that time began with the series of planetary
            incarnations that led to our own. The first such incarnation was that of
            old Saturn, when the archai were going through an incarnation equivalent
            to our own on earth. For this reason I understand the the third
            hierarchy, from angel to archai, live in time and the higher not.
            > >
            > > Spiritual battles being reflected in the physical is similar to the
            old alchemical notion of 'as above, so below'. Matter is condensed
            spirit and reflects spirit. A conflict between opposing spiritual powers
            will be expected to be similarly reflected into this world. Powers that
            act in the soul world, the third hierarchy, have effects in our own.
            These effects will be more or less conscious according to our knowledge
            and degree of clairvoyance.
            > >
            > > T.
            > >
            > > Ted Wrinch
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Maurice McCarthy
            manselton@ wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Perhaps I can throw in my 2 cents-worth here.
            > > >
            > > > Consider what it means to gain knowledge from mere experience.
            First
            > > > comes the content of experience then the application of thinking
            to
            > > > that. Finally, when we work out the truth of the experience then
            we
            > > > have knowledge. In this manner a state of awareness is transformed
            > > > into explanation - knowledge in the proper sense.
            > > >
            > > > Some sense of sequence is necessary to knowledge, necessary to
            over
            > > > come our subjectivity. Time is abstract subjectivity whereas space
            is
            > > > abstract objectivity. (Hegel.)
            > > >
            > > > It follows that those spiritual beings who are beings of knowledge
            > > > must have some sort of consciousness time. It is necessary to have
            a
            > > > distinction between experience or perception and thinking.
            Therefore
            > > > the second and third hierarchies must be temporal. That is the
            angels
            > > > of Wisdom, Movement or Virtue, Form, Archai, Archangels and Angels
            all
            > > > participate in time.
            > > >
            > > > You have to reach the eternals who have no need of time, no need
            of
            > > > knowledge because they only intuit. The Angels of Love, Harmony
            and
            > > > Will endure eternally, beyond time.
            > > >
            > > > Regards
            > > > Maurice
            > > >
            > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 06:39:12PM -0800, Michael Gorbachev wrote:
            > > > > Dear Ted Wrench, Kim, Tarjei,
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Now a spiritual battle - what exactly is that. There is now
            maiming and killing inthe spirit world as I understand it. I have heard
            so many times (or read), that there was this battle or that battle, but
            whenever I ask, how these battles are fought and one, no-one can give me
            an answer.
            > > > >
            > > > > That is one question I would very much like to hear some
            informed opinion about.
            > > > >
            > > > > In the same vein, how for example can one say a battle was
            fought and one, say in the 15th Centur, and ever since that time,
            ahrimanic beings unfolded their activity on the Earth. How is there any
            correlation as between time on earth and time in a spiritual sense.
            Actually, I was of the opinion that there was no time in the spirit
            realms. Yes would welcome informed opinion on this matter as well.
            > > > >
            > > > > MG
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > ________________________________
            > > > > From: ted.wrinch ted.wrinch@
            > > > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 1:43
            > > > > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Philosophy re-loaded
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > One of my local friends is a philosopher -
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > --
            > Your business will assume vast proportions.
            >
          • Kim
            Dear Michael, First, killing can only happen in the physical world, you can t die in the spiritual world. I think that battle is a wrong word, it s descriptive
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 23, 2011
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              Dear Michael,
              First, killing can only happen in the physical world, you can't die in
              the spiritual world.

              I think that battle is a wrong word, it's descriptive and symbolizes
              certain spiritual happenings.
              The spiritual world is hierarchic, our spiritual layers are part of
              higher beings, and the higher beings above us is part of the beings
              above them. The Luciferic beings above man was part of an Angelic being,
              but they were thrown down onto Earth as their Angelic being raised. In
              the same way the Ahrimanian beings were cast up to Earth when the being
              above them raised. Both Luciferic and Ahrimanic beings were without a
              higher being, they were without guidance, so they found man instead, and
              thats were the fight is, in man.
              Kim

              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Michael Gorbachev
              <berlin194533@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Ted Wrench, Kim, Tarjei,
              >
              >
              > Now a spiritual battle - what exactly is that. There is now maiming
              and killing inthe spirit world as I understand it. I have heard so many
              times (or read), that there was this battle or that battle, but whenever
              I ask, how these battles are fought and one, no-one can give me an
              answer.
              >
              > That is one question I would very much like to hear some informed
              opinion about.
              >
              > In the same vein, how for example can one say a battle was fought and
              one, say in the 15th Centur, and ever since that time, ahrimanic beings
              unfolded their activity on the Earth. How is there any correlation as
              between time on earth and time in a spiritual sense. Actually, I was of
              the opinion that there was no time in the spirit realms. Yes would
              welcome informed opinion on this matter as well.
              >
              > MG
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: ted.wrinch ted.wrinch@...
              > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 1:43
              > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Philosophy re-loaded
              >
              >
              > Â
              > One of my local friends is a philosopher - a sort of professional in
              the old Greek sense and he's worked, by himself, all his life on the
              philosophical issues of our age. He's perhaps the first trained thinker
              in this field I've had the pleasure of having discussions with, and I've
              found it rewarding. In a similar vein, I've been impressed with Jeshua
              Ben-Aharon's work and he provided a an illuminating summary of this work
              in a talk at Colmar he gave this Spring. There are many ideas and themes
              in the work that should resonate with the interests of this list. A few
              quotes caught my eye:
              >
              > "The first German thinker who was acutely aware that the time
              of German idealism and Goethe's time had gone forever and cannot
              be revived was of course the great and tragic Nietzsche. He
              literally lost his mind in his efforts to find new, un-foreseen
              venues to spiritualize thinking."
              >
              > "In his destiny as the last German thinker Heidegger embodies the
              destiny of his people. He could not rest content with phenomenology, and
              justifiably so; nor could he open himself to the new impulse working in
              the direction of The Philosophy of Freedom. Instead, he transforms
              Husserl's phenomenology backward instead of forward, to create in German
              intellectual life a powerful and highly suggestive intellectual
              Umstülpung (a reversal inside out) of The Philosophy of Freedom."
              >
              > He goes to say that this death of German thought - something that has
              been obviously true to me for decades now, but no one mentions - causes
              a re-birth of thought in France, which much of his essay essays (hah!).
              This is new to me as I'm normally pretty dismissive of French post-war
              thought (de-constructionism, post-structuralism - bah!).
              >
              > A further quote for thought:
              >
              > "The greatest of spiritual battles was preordained but never fought in
              history, because the spiritual battle of the 20th century, as I
              mentioned above, was decided for the worst early on. When in the second
              half of the century and especially towards its end the great culmination
              of anthroposophy should have taken place, only the other stream was
              culminating, alone. Its true opponent was simply not present out there
              to fight, because its decisive Michaelic battle was lost already in the
              beginning of the 20th century.
              >
              > However, this was only the first century of Michael's present age as
              Zeitgeist, with the first of three great battles, and so many smaller
              ones in between! Presently we are humbly striving to prepare some
              suitable starting points for the second great battleâ€"the battle
              of the 21st century. Now that we are seriously working on
              self-transformation, and with it on true spiritualization of the
              intellect, we are strongly attracted to our rivals, or to their legacy,
              because our living striving is asking for a true dialogue- battle,
              without which it cannot thrive and develop further. And we will have at
              our side Deleuze's being, leading, and the beings of his colleagues."
              >
              > On Steiner:
              >
              > "For the very first time in history a human being was individually
              able to realize, in and through the spiritualization of the intellect,
              in and through pure thinking, an actual production and creation of the
              eternal, moral, spiritual substance of a human individuality as a
              genuine self-conscious spirit- reality. And he could achieve this
              remarkable deed as a free and modern human being, without depending on
              any given mystical or atavistic supersensible consciousness or esoteric
              traditions."
              >
              > He seems to be arguing here that the WC are right: Steiner did not
              have direct access to the spiritual worlds when he wrote PoF. We know
              Steiner did have such access when he was younger - which WC denies - but
              perhaps he did lose it, beyond a memory of its existence, as he
              progressed through his youth (I seem to remember him talking of drunken
              binges in this period in his auto-biography to kill his native
              clairvoyance).
              >
              > Anthroposophy & Contemporary Philosophy in Dialogue:Â Observations
              on the Spiritualization of ThinkingÂ
              >
              > http://www.ybasite.org/resources/being-human-2011-03-YBA-Colmar.pdf
              >
              > T.
              >
              > Ted Wrinch
              >
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