Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Prison, death penalty, the WC (was: Oslo in the world headlines)

Expand Messages
  • elfuncle
    ... world. At first *everyone* - you, me, the pundits and experts - thought it must be Muslim fanatics. You know, that s weird, because again I ve learned
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 23, 2011
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <fts.trasla@...> wrote:

      > Hi Tarjei,
      > This story is all over the front pages and TV news channels of the world. At first *everyone* - you, me, the pundits and experts - thought it must be Muslim fanatics.


      You know, that's weird, because again I've learned something about my spontaneous hunches, that I'm not in the habit of trusting, so I lean on my intellect instead.

      I was at home in the suburb when it happened, a fifteen minute drive from the downtown blast area, and when someone said turn on the news and I saw the debris, my first thought was neo-Nazis, I swear! But then my "logic" kicked in, and I said nah, they're so few and so badly organized they could never pull this off. So I thought al-Qaeda and that stuff. But when the kids were shot at the Utoya island -- there were 650 of them and at least 85 were murdered -- it's a youth camp for the Labor Party -- that simply did not compute with Islamist terrorism. As an expert said, the Islamists would have targeted the main railway station or some similar crowded spot, not a government building. That's Timothy McVeigh's M.O. all the way, including the car bomb. (Oklahoma City 1995)

      > And the question was: Why Norway? There have been news reports about Norway itself - about which the world has been pretty ignorant: constitutional monarchy, very democratic, liberal (leftist) govt. Laid back, peaceful (despite a token force in Afghanistan). Ironically it turns out to be a *Christian* fanatic.

      Breivik's actions were not religiously motivated, they were politically motivated. He was a member of a Swedish Nazi forum and things like that. The madman's target was the Norwegian Labor Party because of their ideals of tolerance, anti-racism, and multi-culturalism.

      > This paragraph was in the NY Times:
      > "If he is convicted for the crimes under Norwegian law, Mr. Breivik would face a maximum sentence of 21 years, according to the police, meaning that unless he were found unfit for release for some reason he would be freed well before he turned 60. Norway abolished capital punishment in 1905." It that possible???


      It's true that the maximum penalty in Norway for ANY crime is 21 years in prison. Besides, you're always released after serving two thirds of the sentence unless you've behaved extremely badly (in 1969, I got 7 months for cannabis and was released after 5 months), so under normal circumstances, say if you get 21 years for severe drug offenses, you're released after 14 years. But that's not likely to happen to homicidal maniacs, pedophiles and the like. My sloppy and uneducated guess is that Breivik will serve 14 years in a maximum security, then 7 years in a half way house, and his sentence may include something called "forvaring" (i.e. continued close supervision or custody) after release if he'll still be considered dangerous. So even if he's released many years from now, they may in fact never let him out of sight -- at least not until he's very, very old and no longer considered a risk from a psychological standpoint. (The shrinks are extremely powerful in such court cases.)

      About the death penalty: As we all know, all of Europe eliminated the death penalty many decades ago, after a twelve year terror regime with daily executions on every street corner. And Norway in particular passed a specific law thirty-two years ago which permanently bans the death penalty, even if the country should be at war(!) This is the influence of the Christ Impulse in Europe over time, in the best sense of the word. It's also the influence of true and genuine humanism.

      The Labor Party, which was Breivik's target (including the youth camp), has been the most powerful and influential political force in Norway throughout the post-war years, and this is the very party that hammered the final, permanent nails into the coffin of the death penalty.

      In 1905, when Norway gained its independence from Sweden and became a separate nation proper, the death penalty was abolished for civilians, but it was upheld for the military. This meant that the death penalty could only be used in wartime and never against persons under 18 years of age.

      In connection with WWII and the Nazi occupation 1940–45, permission to apply the death penalty was expanded to include Norwegian traitors and foreign war criminals. 

      Immediately after the war, 24 Norwegians, 1 Dane, and 13 Germans were executed in Norway. The last execution took place in 1948. (Vidkun Quisling was executed by firing squad at Akershus Fort in Oslo 24 October 1945.)

      In 1950, the laws were revised with regard to treason, including the rules governing the death penalty. A new military law was passed, allowing the death penalty in extremely severe cases treason in wartime.

      Because of the development in other Nordic countries and elsewhere, the laws about the death penalty in military cases and all other cases were abolished on June 8, 1979. The major argument for the abolition was the principle of life's inviolability. To the best of my layman's understanding, this law is final, constitutional, and irreversible.

      Now, what should you tell the Sugar Cherubs in the Wisdom Community? Well first off, they should know that our mild penalties compared to the US are due to our philosophy of letting criminals and even psychopaths work out their karma, because we're all anthroposophists in Norway (except a few grouches who piggy-tail on the WC'ers).

      Secondly, you should remind them that the Norwegian prime minister Jens Stoltenberg, who at the present time seems to be regarded as a first class hero on the world stage these days (and deservedly so), is in fact a Waldorf graduate.

      I hope it doesn't ruin their delicious dinner. Please give them my bear hugs and my sweet, sloppy kisses.

      Tarjei
    • dottie zold
      I didn t think it was muslims rather a fanatic and that could be any. I was thinking how Lightsearcher used to be ranting against the muslims in Norway and it
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 23, 2011
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        I didn't think it was muslims rather a fanatic and that could be any. I was thinking how Lightsearcher used to be ranting against the muslims in Norway and it was really awful and that gave me a clue to what was too going on there with the fanatical far right like we see sometimes in Austria etc.
         
        I just read a quote that said 'it was atrocious but it was necessary' shared from the maniacs lawyer. Disgusting.
         
        All good things,
        Dottie

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Sat, 7/23/11, elfuncle <elfuncle@...> wrote:

        From: elfuncle <elfuncle@...>
        Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Prison, death penalty, the WC (was: Oslo in the world headlines)
        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, July 23, 2011, 6:22 PM

         

        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <fts.trasla@...> wrote:

        > Hi Tarjei,
        > This story is all over the front pages and TV news channels of the world. At first *everyone* - you, me, the pundits and experts - thought it must be Muslim fanatics.


        You know, that's weird, because again I've learned something about my spontaneous hunches, that I'm not in the habit of trusting, so I lean on my intellect instead.

        I was at home in the suburb when it happened, a fifteen minute drive from the downtown blast area, and when someone said turn on the news and I saw the debris, my first thought was neo-Nazis, I swear! But then my "logic" kicked in, and I said nah, they're so few and so badly organized they could never pull this off. So I thought al-Qaeda and that stuff. But when the kids were shot at the Utoya island -- there were 650 of them and at least 85 were murdered -- it's a youth camp for the Labor Party -- that simply did not compute with Islamist terrorism. As an expert said, the Islamists would have targeted the main railway station or some similar crowded spot, not a government building. That's Timothy McVeigh's M.O. all the way, including the car bomb. (Oklahoma City 1995)

        > And the question was: Why Norway? There have been news reports about Norway itself - about which the world has been pretty ignorant: constitutional monarchy, very democratic, liberal (leftist) govt. Laid back, peaceful (despite a token force in Afghanistan). Ironically it turns out to be a *Christian* fanatic.

        Breivik's actions were not religiously motivated, they were politically motivated. He was a member of a Swedish Nazi forum and things like that. The madman's target was the Norwegian Labor Party because of their ideals of tolerance, anti-racism, and multi-culturalism.

        > This paragraph was in the NY Times:
        > "If he is convicted for the crimes under Norwegian law, Mr. Breivik would face a maximum sentence of 21 years, according to the police, meaning that unless he were found unfit for release for some reason he would be freed well before he turned 60. Norway abolished capital punishment in 1905." It that possible???


        It's true that the maximum penalty in Norway for ANY crime is 21 years in prison. Besides, you're always released after serving two thirds of the sentence unless you've behaved extremely badly (in 1969, I got 7 months for cannabis and was released after 5 months), so under normal circumstances, say if you get 21 years for severe drug offenses, you're released after 14 years. But that's not likely to happen to homicidal maniacs, pedophiles and the like. My sloppy and uneducated guess is that Breivik will serve 14 years in a maximum security, then 7 years in a half way house, and his sentence may include something called "forvaring" (i.e. continued close supervision or custody) after release if he'll still be considered dangerous. So even if he's released many years from now, they may in fact never let him out of sight -- at least not until he's very, very old and no longer considered a risk from a psychological standpoint. (The shrinks are extremely powerful in such court cases.)

        About the death penalty: As we all know, all of Europe eliminated the death penalty many decades ago, after a twelve year terror regime with daily executions on every street corner. And Norway in particular passed a specific law thirty-two years ago which permanently bans the death penalty, even if the country should be at war(!) This is the influence of the Christ Impulse in Europe over time, in the best sense of the word. It's also the influence of true and genuine humanism.

        The Labor Party, which was Breivik's target (including the youth camp), has been the most powerful and influential political force in Norway throughout the post-war years, and this is the very party that hammered the final, permanent nails into the coffin of the death penalty.

        In 1905, when Norway gained its independence from Sweden and became a separate nation proper, the death penalty was abolished for civilians, but it was upheld for the military. This meant that the death penalty could only be used in wartime and never against persons under 18 years of age.

        In connection with WWII and the Nazi occupation 1940–45, permission to apply the death penalty was expanded to include Norwegian traitors and foreign war criminals. 

        Immediately after the war, 24 Norwegians, 1 Dane, and 13 Germans were executed in Norway. The last execution took place in 1948. (Vidkun Quisling was executed by firing squad at Akershus Fort in Oslo 24 October 1945.)

        In 1950, the laws were revised with regard to treason, including the rules governing the death penalty. A new military law was passed, allowing the death penalty in extremely severe cases treason in wartime.

        Because of the development in other Nordic countries and elsewhere, the laws about the death penalty in military cases and all other cases were abolished on June 8, 1979. The major argument for the abolition was the principle of life's inviolability. To the best of my layman's understanding, this law is final, constitutional, and irreversible.

        Now, what should you tell the Sugar Cherubs in the Wisdom Community? Well first off, they should know that our mild penalties compared to the US are due to our philosophy of letting criminals and even psychopaths work out their karma, because we're all anthroposophists in Norway (except a few grouches who piggy-tail on the WC'ers).

        Secondly, you should remind them that the Norwegian prime minister Jens Stoltenberg, who at the present time seems to be regarded as a first class hero on the world stage these days (and deservedly so), is in fact a Waldorf graduate.

        I hope it doesn't ruin their delicious dinner. Please give them my bear hugs and my sweet, sloppy kisses.

        Tarjei
      • elfuncle
        ... Oslo was far from an unlikely target for islamic extremists, so this assumption did make sense at first. Security here has been very low compared to the
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 24, 2011
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
          >
          > I didn't think it was muslims rather a fanatic and that could be any.


          Oslo was far from an unlikely target for islamic extremists, so this assumption did make sense at first. Security here has been very low compared to the rest of Europe and other parts of the world, there's a lot of debate about that now because we'd like to keep it that way. I have personally engaged in casual conversations with politicians and incumbent government reps I've met on the street, in stores, in cafés and shops and so on over the years, and Norway has always been proud of this kind of openness between ordinary people and political leaders. Of course new security measures will be implemented after this, but they don't want this openness and availability to be reduced.

          Tarjei
        • dottie zold
          I don t think people realize that the old terrorism that occurred is a different one that will occur today. They see it brought alot of heat on their people s
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 24, 2011
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            I don't think people realize that the old terrorism that occurred is a different one that will occur today. They see it brought alot of heat on their people's heads and it wasn't worth it....only the ignorant will pursue such idiocacy in the future it seems to me.
             
            I think on the extremist islam side you will see something akin to what took place and the reasoning for the cruscades.... we are recapitulating in a way, or so it seems to me, this period of time. So its now about infiltrating .... its more about Ahriman using Lucifer to get into the communities so that Sordat can swing by and collect his booty for the future. So the communities will be taken over by stealth, although it looks like inclusion, by the extremist, and only love will save the day between those who are extremist using the religion and god for their own use and those who truly are honoring something higher then them that lives in the heart.
             
            I think we can see that a fundamentalist religious fevor on either side is what brings hate and those who are true lovers of man and the cultural religion they were born into can save the day through love and righteousness....
             
            so are my thoughts on this sunday morn,
            d

            "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



            --- On Sun, 7/24/11, elfuncle <elfuncle@...> wrote:

            From: elfuncle <elfuncle@...>
            Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Prison, death penalty, the WC (was: Oslo in the world headlines)
            To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, July 24, 2011, 7:24 AM

             

            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
            >
            > I didn't think it was muslims rather a fanatic and that could be any.


            Oslo was far from an unlikely target for islamic extremists, so this assumption did make sense at first. Security here has been very low compared to the rest of Europe and other parts of the world, there's a lot of debate about that now because we'd like to keep it that way. I have personally engaged in casual conversations with politicians and incumbent government reps I've met on the street, in stores, in cafés and shops and so on over the years, and Norway has always been proud of this kind of openness between ordinary people and political leaders. Of course new security measures will be implemented after this, but they don't want this openness and availability to be reduced.

            Tarjei
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.