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RS on Whitsun, karma, cosmos, space, time...

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  • elfuncle
    http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/AscenPent/19240604p01.html Man only looks up to the Sun in the
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 12, 2011
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      http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/AscenPent/19240604p01.html
      "Man only looks up to the Sun in the right way (even if it be but in his mind) when, as he gazes upwards, he forgets Space and considers Time alone. For in truth, the Sun does not only radiate light, it radiates Space itself, and when we are looking into the Sun we are looking out of Space into the world of Time. The Sun is the unique star that it is because when we gaze into the Sun we are looking out of Space. And from that world, outside of Space, Christ came to men. At the time when Christianity was founded by Christ on Earth, man had been all too long restricted to the mere Ex Deo Nascimur, he had become altogether bound up in it, he had become a Space-being pure and simple. The reason why it is so hard for us to understand the traditions of primeval epochs, when we go back to them with the consciousness of present-day civilisation, is that they always had in mind Time, and not the world of Space. They regarded the world of Space only as an appendage of the world of Time.

      "Christ came to bring the element of Time again to men, and when the human heart, the human soul, the human spirit, unite themselves with Christ, then man receives once more the stream of Time that flows from Eternity to Eternity. What else can we human beings do when we die, i.e. when we go out of the world of Space, than hold fast to Him who gives Time back to us again? At the Mystery of Golgotha man had become to so great an extent a being of Space that Time was lost to him. Christ brought Time back again to men."

      ( -- Rudolf Steiner: The Whitsuntide Festival, Its Place in the Study of Karma, GA 353, Dornach, 4th June, 1924)

      Tarjei

    • Lucas Dreier
      This is a fascinating passage, but the translator (or editor) mixed up the words Space and Time at the end of the first paragraph so as to render the
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 16, 2011
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        This is a fascinating passage, but the translator (or editor) mixed up the words "Space" and "Time" at the end of the first paragraph so as to render the passage completely contradictory!

        The last two sentences of the first paragraph should read as follows (changed words marked in bold):

        "The reason why it is so hard for us to understand the traditions of primeval epochs, when we go back to them with the consciousness of present-day civilisation, is that they always had in mind Space, and not the world of Time. They regarded the world of Time only as an appendage of the world of Space.

        Here's the original German:

        "Wir verstehen so schwer mit dem heutigen zivilisatorischen Bewußtsein die alten Überlieferungen, weil diese eigentlich überall mit dem Raum rechnen und nicht mit dem Zeitlichen, mit dem Zeitlichen nur wie mit einem Anhängsel des Räumlichen."

        (The lecture is actually in GA 236---the confusion arises because Steiner also gave a talk to the workmen on the same day, and that talk is in GA 353.)

        Best,

        Lucas


        On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 8:56 AM, elfuncle <elfuncle@...> wrote:
         

        http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/AscenPent/19240604p01.html

        "Man only looks up to the Sun in the right way (even if it be but in his mind) when, as he gazes upwards, he forgets Space and considers Time alone. For in truth, the Sun does not only radiate light, it radiates Space itself, and when we are looking into the Sun we are looking out of Space into the world of Time. The Sun is the unique star that it is because when we gaze into the Sun we are looking out of Space. And from that world, outside of Space, Christ came to men. At the time when Christianity was founded by Christ on Earth, man had been all too long restricted to the mere Ex Deo Nascimur, he had become altogether bound up in it, he had become a Space-being pure and simple. The reason why it is so hard for us to understand the traditions of primeval epochs, when we go back to them with the consciousness of present-day civilisation, is that they always had in mind Time, and not the world of Space. They regarded the world of Space only as an appendage of the world of Time.

        "Christ came to bring the element of Time again to men, and when the human heart, the human soul, the human spirit, unite themselves with Christ, then man receives once more the stream of Time that flows from Eternity to Eternity. What else can we human beings do when we die, i.e. when we go out of the world of Space, than hold fast to Him who gives Time back to us again? At the Mystery of Golgotha man had become to so great an extent a being of Space that Time was lost to him. Christ brought Time back again to men."

        ( -- Rudolf Steiner: The Whitsuntide Festival, Its Place in the Study of Karma, GA 353, Dornach, 4th June, 1924)

        Tarjei


      • elfuncle
        Thank you for this discovery, Lucas. I discovered this astounding lecture 25 years ago and I actually used the passage you correct here in the recent article
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 17, 2011
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          Thank you for this discovery, Lucas. I discovered this astounding lecture 25 years ago and I actually used the passage you correct here in the recent article Star Trek and Anthroposophy , but I never consulted the original German text.

          With this correction, it makes a lot of sense if we consider the following:
          "At the time when Christianity was founded by Christ on Earth, man had been all too long restricted to the mere Ex Deo Nascimur, he had become altogether bound up in it, he had become a Space-being pure and simple."
          That is why humanity at that time thought only in terms of space, and of time as merely an appendage of space.

          Thank you, Lucas.

          Tarjei

          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Lucas Dreier <lcdlists@...> wrote:
          >
          > This is a fascinating passage, but the translator (or editor) mixed up the
          > words "Space" and "Time" at the end of the first paragraph so as to render
          > the passage completely contradictory!
          >
          > The last two sentences of the first paragraph should read as follows
          > (changed words marked in bold):
          >
          > "The reason why it is so hard for us to understand the traditions of
          > primeval epochs, when we go back to them with the consciousness of
          > present-day civilisation, is that they always had in mind *Space*, and not
          > the world of *Time*. They regarded the world of *Time* only as an appendage
          > of the world of *Space*.
          >
          > Here's the original German:
          >
          > "Wir verstehen so schwer mit dem heutigen zivilisatorischen Bewußtsein die
          > alten Überlieferungen, weil diese eigentlich überall mit dem Raum rechnen
          > und nicht mit dem Zeitlichen, mit dem Zeitlichen nur wie mit einem Anhängsel
          > des Räumlichen."
          >
          > (The lecture is actually in GA 236---the confusion arises because Steiner
          > also gave a talk to the workmen on the same day, and that talk is in GA
          > 353.)
          >
          > Best,
          >
          > Lucas
          >
          >
          > On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 8:56 AM, elfuncle elfuncle@... wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/AscenPent/19240604p01.html
          > >
          > > "Man only looks up to the Sun in the right way (even if it be but in his
          > > mind) when, as he gazes upwards, he forgets Space and considers Time alone.
          > > For in truth, the Sun does not only radiate light, it radiates Space itself,
          > > and when we are looking into the Sun we are looking out of Space into the
          > > world of Time. The Sun is the unique star that it is because when we gaze
          > > into the Sun *we are looking out of Space.* And from that world, outside
          > > of Space, Christ came to men. At the time when Christianity was founded by
          > > Christ on Earth, man had been all too long restricted to the mere *Ex Deo
          > > Nascimur,* he had become altogether bound up in it, he had become a
          > > Space-being pure and simple. The reason why it is so hard for us to
          > > understand the traditions of primeval epochs, when we go back to them with
          > > the consciousness of present-day civilisation, is that they always had in
          > > mind Time, and not the world of Space. They regarded the world of Space only
          > > as an appendage of the world of Time.
          > >
          > > "Christ came to bring the element of Time again to men, and when the human
          > > heart, the human soul, the human spirit, unite themselves with Christ, then
          > > man receives once more the stream of Time that flows from Eternity to
          > > Eternity. What else can we human beings do when we die, i.e. when we go out
          > > of the world of Space, than hold fast to Him who gives Time back to us
          > > again? At the Mystery of Golgotha man had become to so great an extent a
          > > being of Space that Time was lost to him. Christ brought Time back again to
          > > men."
          > > *( -- Rudolf Steiner: The Whitsuntide Festival, Its Place in the Study of
          > > Karma, GA 353, Dornach, 4th June, 1924)*
          > >
          > > **
          > >
          > > Tarjei
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >

        • James Stewart
          I ve made the corrections at the RS Archive ... thank you Lucas and Tarjei! Jim ... -- Jim Stewart e.Librarian ... When you make contributions or purchase
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 17, 2011
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            I've made the corrections at the RS Archive ... thank you Lucas and Tarjei!

            Jim

            On 6/17/2011 10:00 AM, elfuncle wrote:
             

            Thank you for this discovery, Lucas. I discovered this astounding lecture 25 years ago and I actually used the passage you correct here in the recent article Star Trek and Anthroposophy , but I never consulted the original German text.

            With this correction, it makes a lot of sense if we consider the following:

            "At the time when Christianity was founded by Christ on Earth, man had been all too long restricted to the mere Ex Deo Nascimur, he had become altogether bound up in it, he had become a Space-being pure and simple."
            That is why humanity at that time thought only in terms of space, and of time as merely an appendage of space.

            Thank you, Lucas.

            Tarjei

            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Lucas Dreier <lcdlists@...> wrote:
            >
            > This is a fascinating passage, but the translator (or editor) mixed up the
            > words "Space" and "Time" at the end of the first paragraph so as to render
            > the passage completely contradictory!
            >
            > The last two sentences of the first paragraph should read as follows
            > (changed words marked in bold):
            >
            > "The reason why it is so hard for us to understand the traditions of
            > primeval epochs, when we go back to them with the consciousness of
            > present-day civilisation, is that they always had in mind *Space*, and not
            > the world of *Time*. They regarded the world of *Time* only as an appendage
            > of the world of *Space*.
            >
            > Here's the original German:
            >
            > "Wir verstehen so schwer mit dem heutigen zivilisatorischen Bewußtsein die
            > alten Überlieferungen, weil diese eigentlich überall mit dem Raum rechnen
            > und nicht mit dem Zeitlichen, mit dem Zeitlichen nur wie mit einem Anhängsel
            > des Räumlichen."
            >
            > (The lecture is actually in GA 236---the confusion arises because Steiner
            > also gave a talk to the workmen on the same day, and that talk is in GA
            > 353.)
            >
            > Best,
            >
            > Lucas
            >
            >
            > On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 8:56 AM, elfuncle elfuncle@... wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/AscenPent/19240604p01.html
            > >
            > > "Man only looks up to the Sun in the right way (even if it be but in his
            > > mind) when, as he gazes upwards, he forgets Space and considers Time alone.
            > > For in truth, the Sun does not only radiate light, it radiates Space itself,
            > > and when we are looking into the Sun we are looking out of Space into the
            > > world of Time. The Sun is the unique star that it is because when we gaze
            > > into the Sun *we are looking out of Space.* And from that world, outside
            > > of Space, Christ came to men. At the time when Christianity was founded by
            > > Christ on Earth, man had been all too long restricted to the mere *Ex Deo
            > > Nascimur,* he had become altogether bound up in it, he had become a
            > > Space-being pure and simple. The reason why it is so hard for us to
            > > understand the traditions of primeval epochs, when we go back to them with
            > > the consciousness of present-day civilisation, is that they always had in
            > > mind Time, and not the world of Space. They regarded the world of Space only
            > > as an appendage of the world of Time.
            > >
            > > "Christ came to bring the element of Time again to men, and when the human
            > > heart, the human soul, the human spirit, unite themselves with Christ, then
            > > man receives once more the stream of Time that flows from Eternity to
            > > Eternity. What else can we human beings do when we die, i.e. when we go out
            > > of the world of Space, than hold fast to Him who gives Time back to us
            > > again? At the Mystery of Golgotha man had become to so great an extent a
            > > being of Space that Time was lost to him. Christ brought Time back again to
            > > men."
            > > *( -- Rudolf Steiner: The Whitsuntide Festival, Its Place in the Study of
            > > Karma, GA 353, Dornach, 4th June, 1924)*
            > >
            > > **
            > >
            > > Tarjei
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >


            --
            Jim Stewart
            e.Librarian
            

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          • bikhe hozho
            ... SRC: Hmmm...interesting, yes, but even more interesting if we knew what he was talking about, or, more interestingly, if we knew what those primeval
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 17, 2011
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              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Lucas Dreier <lcdlists@...> wrote:
              >
              > This is a fascinating passage, but the translator (or editor) mixed up the
              > words "Space" and "Time" at the end of the first paragraph so as to render
              > the passage completely contradictory!
              >
              > The last two sentences of the first paragraph should read as follows
              > (changed words marked in bold):
              >
              > "The reason why it is so hard for us to understand the traditions of
              > primeval epochs, when we go back to them with the consciousness of
              > present-day civilisation, is that they always had in mind *Space*, and not
              > the world of *Time*. They regarded the world of *Time* only as an appendage
              > of the world of *Space*.




              SRC: Hmmm...interesting, yes, but even more interesting if we knew what he was talking about, or, more interestingly, if we knew what those "primeval" peoples had in mind with this Space/Time thingie.

              Presumably (or not, as the case might be, with regard to any particular peoples) modern but traditional and un-massacculturated cultures retain some of this same distinction, particularly in their mythology and ceremonialism. Exactly how this work in specific instances would be a very interesting thing to research.

              First of all we would need to determine exactly what RS had in mind with "Space" and "Time" in terms of his own Central-European stream and only then could we proceed to investigate how or if it applied to the case at hand in other, possibly non Indo-European types who have some similar, some vastly different world-outlooks.

              Stephen
            • bikhe hozho
              PS: I have no immediate idea as to what RS means in this passage. Good stuff to mediate upon.... Stephen
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 17, 2011
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                PS: I have no immediate idea as to what RS means in this passage.

                Good stuff to mediate upon....

                Stephen



                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Lucas Dreier <lcdlists@> wrote:
                > >
                > > This is a fascinating passage, but the translator (or editor) mixed up the
                > > words "Space" and "Time" at the end of the first paragraph so as to render
                > > the passage completely contradictory!
                > >
                > > The last two sentences of the first paragraph should read as follows
                > > (changed words marked in bold):
                > >
                > > "The reason why it is so hard for us to understand the traditions of
                > > primeval epochs, when we go back to them with the consciousness of
                > > present-day civilisation, is that they always had in mind *Space*, and not
                > > the world of *Time*. They regarded the world of *Time* only as an appendage
                > > of the world of *Space*.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > SRC: Hmmm...interesting, yes, but even more interesting if we knew what he was talking about, or, more interestingly, if we knew what those "primeval" peoples had in mind with this Space/Time thingie.
                >
                > Presumably (or not, as the case might be, with regard to any particular peoples) modern but traditional and un-massacculturated cultures retain some of this same distinction, particularly in their mythology and ceremonialism. Exactly how this work in specific instances would be a very interesting thing to research.
                >
                > First of all we would need to determine exactly what RS had in mind with "Space" and "Time" in terms of his own Central-European stream and only then could we proceed to investigate how or if it applied to the case at hand in other, possibly non Indo-European types who have some similar, some vastly different world-outlooks.
                >
                > Stephen
                >
              • bikhe hozho
                OK; got it. FYI: In native/traditional ceremonial life, at least across the Americas, whatever happened long ago is still present in this place and anchored
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 20, 2011
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                  OK; got it. FYI:

                  In native/traditional ceremonial life, at least across the Americas, whatever happened 'long ago' is still present in this place and anchored within and across the sacred landscape. All of what the culture heroes or originating beings brought about is still there - here - latent perhaps, but available to the shaman for the healing of present unbalance. The time factor, which is so important for the operation of the left-brain, technologically educated mind, is of only relatively trivial utility, for mundane affairs.
                  Within this Space-based world-system, one travels in space to restore spiritual connection which are located within the features of the geography; primarily the mountains and other significant landscape organs, but also to very local features which may be utterly unremarkable to anyone unfamiliar with the stories of the place.
                  As William Faulkner said: " The past is not over, its not even the past." Of course this does not make sense, or, if it does, only of the fringe, whacky type of the poet, who of course almost by definition does not deal in reality.

                  For the "Time"-based reality, what is past is gone forever, unless some mad scientist invest a time machine. Even in a Time-system, there is no sacredness to it and it is regularized to the nth degree by atomic clocks, scheduled lifestyles, etc. Space is reduced to an obstacle.
                  I think one could make a good case that a Time-based system is an (inevitable?) artifact, perhaps a temporary one, of the disassociated Intellectual Soul.

                  Just some ideas.

                  Stephen



                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > PS: I have no immediate idea as to what RS means in this passage.
                  >
                  > Good stuff to mediate upon....
                  >
                  > Stephen
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Lucas Dreier <lcdlists@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > This is a fascinating passage, but the translator (or editor) mixed up the
                  > > > words "Space" and "Time" at the end of the first paragraph so as to render
                  > > > the passage completely contradictory!
                  > > >
                  > > > The last two sentences of the first paragraph should read as follows
                  > > > (changed words marked in bold):
                  > > >
                  > > > "The reason why it is so hard for us to understand the traditions of
                  > > > primeval epochs, when we go back to them with the consciousness of
                  > > > present-day civilisation, is that they always had in mind *Space*, and not
                  > > > the world of *Time*. They regarded the world of *Time* only as an appendage
                  > > > of the world of *Space*.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > SRC: Hmmm...interesting, yes, but even more interesting if we knew what he was talking about, or, more interestingly, if we knew what those "primeval" peoples had in mind with this Space/Time thingie.
                  > >
                  > > Presumably (or not, as the case might be, with regard to any particular peoples) modern but traditional and un-massacculturated cultures retain some of this same distinction, particularly in their mythology and ceremonialism. Exactly how this work in specific instances would be a very interesting thing to research.
                  > >
                  > > First of all we would need to determine exactly what RS had in mind with "Space" and "Time" in terms of his own Central-European stream and only then could we proceed to investigate how or if it applied to the case at hand in other, possibly non Indo-European types who have some similar, some vastly different world-outlooks.
                  > >
                  > > Stephen
                  > >
                  >
                • elfuncle
                  ... some mad scientist invest a time machine. I seem to recall some mad scientist who invested his labor in a time travel contraption called the Akasha
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 20, 2011
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                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:

                    > For the "Time"-based reality, what is past is gone forever, unless some mad scientist invest a time machine.

                    I seem to recall some mad scientist who invested his labor in a time travel contraption called the Akasha Chronicle or the Akashic Records or something like that. He claimed anyone who acquired the skill to operate this device could travel to the past with it. This, of course, is stark raving madness, just ask about it in the hole and they´ll tell you.

                    Tarjei
                  • bikhe hozho
                    Yeah but do you know anyone who can use it? Stephen
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 21, 2011
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                      Yeah but do you know anyone who can use it?

                      Stephen



                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                      > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                      >
                      > > For the "Time"-based reality, what is past is gone forever, unless
                      > some mad scientist invest a time machine.
                      >
                      > I seem to recall some mad scientist who invested his labor in a time
                      > travel contraption called the Akasha Chronicle or the Akashic Records or
                      > something like that. He claimed anyone who acquired the skill to operate
                      > this device could travel to the past with it. This, of course, is stark
                      > raving madness, just ask about it in the hole and they´ll tell you.
                      >
                      > Tarjei
                      >
                    • cinnamons94
                      Thanks for posting this, Stephen. I ve been thinking of your comments over the last few days in light of my recent visit to a Native American historical
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 22, 2011
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                        Thanks for posting this, Stephen. I've been thinking of your comments over the last few days in light of my recent visit to a Native American historical monument/art installation. (BTW: I prefer the term "First Nation" but it doesn't seem to be used as much in the US??)

                        Its really sad to me that we* seem to have little capacity for allowing disparate worldviews to coexist peacefully. Calling something "religion" seems to be the only escape clause that allows some difference to occur in our society along those lines. However, this distinction also engenders a value system. And, of course, religion and worldview are not synonyms of each other. Lately, I've been feeling sad that the question of cultural hegemony is usually lost in polemics.

                        Is anyone out there a classicist? It seems to me that we have been better at tolerating coexisting worldviews at other periods of time. Maybe I am romanticizing? For all of the benefits of the internet, it feels to me that we are undergoing a period of cultural standardization that (I hope!) precedes a new era of cultural flexibility. We've got to learn to be ok with co-existing worldviews without having the need for one to dominate.

                        *human beings living today, especially in the west

                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > OK; got it. FYI:
                        >
                        > In native/traditional ceremonial life, at least across the Americas, whatever happened 'long ago' is still present in this place and anchored within and across the sacred landscape. All of what the culture heroes or originating beings brought about is still there - here - latent perhaps, but available to the shaman for the healing of present unbalance. The time factor, which is so important for the operation of the left-brain, technologically educated mind, is of only relatively trivial utility, for mundane affairs.
                        > Within this Space-based world-system, one travels in space to restore spiritual connection which are located within the features of the geography; primarily the mountains and other significant landscape organs, but also to very local features which may be utterly unremarkable to anyone unfamiliar with the stories of the place.
                        > As William Faulkner said: " The past is not over, its not even the past." Of course this does not make sense, or, if it does, only of the fringe, whacky type of the poet, who of course almost by definition does not deal in reality.
                        >
                        > For the "Time"-based reality, what is past is gone forever, unless some mad scientist invest a time machine. Even in a Time-system, there is no sacredness to it and it is regularized to the nth degree by atomic clocks, scheduled lifestyles, etc. Space is reduced to an obstacle.
                        > I think one could make a good case that a Time-based system is an (inevitable?) artifact, perhaps a temporary one, of the disassociated Intellectual Soul.
                        >
                        > Just some ideas.
                        >
                        > Stephen
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > PS: I have no immediate idea as to what RS means in this passage.
                        > >
                        > > Good stuff to mediate upon....
                        > >
                        > > Stephen
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Lucas Dreier <lcdlists@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > This is a fascinating passage, but the translator (or editor) mixed up the
                        > > > > words "Space" and "Time" at the end of the first paragraph so as to render
                        > > > > the passage completely contradictory!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The last two sentences of the first paragraph should read as follows
                        > > > > (changed words marked in bold):
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "The reason why it is so hard for us to understand the traditions of
                        > > > > primeval epochs, when we go back to them with the consciousness of
                        > > > > present-day civilisation, is that they always had in mind *Space*, and not
                        > > > > the world of *Time*. They regarded the world of *Time* only as an appendage
                        > > > > of the world of *Space*.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > SRC: Hmmm...interesting, yes, but even more interesting if we knew what he was talking about, or, more interestingly, if we knew what those "primeval" peoples had in mind with this Space/Time thingie.
                        > > >
                        > > > Presumably (or not, as the case might be, with regard to any particular peoples) modern but traditional and un-massacculturated cultures retain some of this same distinction, particularly in their mythology and ceremonialism. Exactly how this work in specific instances would be a very interesting thing to research.
                        > > >
                        > > > First of all we would need to determine exactly what RS had in mind with "Space" and "Time" in terms of his own Central-European stream and only then could we proceed to investigate how or if it applied to the case at hand in other, possibly non Indo-European types who have some similar, some vastly different world-outlooks.
                        > > >
                        > > > Stephen
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • bikhe hozho
                        ...and thank you for your pleasant and pertinent comment, Cinnamon. Appreciation of ambiguity, tolerance of apparent contradiction, patience with uncertainty,
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 22, 2011
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                          ...and thank you for your pleasant and pertinent comment, Cinnamon.

                          Appreciation of ambiguity, tolerance of apparent contradiction, patience with uncertainty, calmness in the midst of confusion, curiosity about differences, etc. - all these have no place in the age of instant answers, where people can live in virtual echo-chambers, any fact has a counter-fact, were reality is no match for illusion or conceptual wheel-spinning, and where cold information replaces warm wisdom, character, and experience. Its the Ahrimanic influence in electronic social technology, IMO. Bah!

                          Sitting in a sweat lodge, dark, hot, in that same space with the glowing stones, it's easy to bring Ancient Saturn back in as the memory of those stones is reactivated and everything is present, here, now, as we pray for connection with all our relations.

                          Its always good to hear from you. Happy Summer!

                          Stephen


                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "cinnamons94" <cinnamon94@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Thanks for posting this, Stephen. I've been thinking of your comments over the last few days in light of my recent visit to a Native American historical monument/art installation. (BTW: I prefer the term "First Nation" but it doesn't seem to be used as much in the US??)
                          >
                          > Its really sad to me that we* seem to have little capacity for allowing disparate worldviews to coexist peacefully. Calling something "religion" seems to be the only escape clause that allows some difference to occur in our society along those lines. However, this distinction also engenders a value system. And, of course, religion and worldview are not synonyms of each other. Lately, I've been feeling sad that the question of cultural hegemony is usually lost in polemics.
                          >
                          > Is anyone out there a classicist? It seems to me that we have been better at tolerating coexisting worldviews at other periods of time. Maybe I am romanticizing? For all of the benefits of the internet, it feels to me that we are undergoing a period of cultural standardization that (I hope!) precedes a new era of cultural flexibility. We've got to learn to be ok with co-existing worldviews without having the need for one to dominate.
                          >
                          > *human beings living today, especially in the west
                        • bikhe hozho
                          ...thinking about your standardization comment. Yes, that, also a complete atomization and isolation of the individuality within that normalized and
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 22, 2011
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                            ...thinking about your "standardization" comment. Yes, that, also a complete atomization and isolation of the individuality within that normalized and increasingly enforced regimen. Reality itself is becoming increasingly disassociated. Its a very bizarre situation.

                            All the more reason to remember our mutual humanity.

                            Regards,

                            Stephen



                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "cinnamons94" <cinnamon94@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks for posting this, Stephen. I've been thinking of your comments over the last few days in light of my recent visit to a Native American historical monument/art installation. (BTW: I prefer the term "First Nation" but it doesn't seem to be used as much in the US??)
                            >
                            > Its really sad to me that we* seem to have little capacity for allowing disparate worldviews to coexist peacefully. Calling something "religion" seems to be the only escape clause that allows some difference to occur in our society along those lines. However, this distinction also engenders a value system. And, of course, religion and worldview are not synonyms of each other. Lately, I've been feeling sad that the question of cultural hegemony is usually lost in polemics.
                            >
                            > Is anyone out there a classicist? It seems to me that we have been better at tolerating coexisting worldviews at other periods of time. Maybe I am romanticizing? For all of the benefits of the internet, it feels to me that we are undergoing a period of cultural standardization that (I hope!) precedes a new era of cultural flexibility. We've got to learn to be ok with co-existing worldviews without having the need for one to dominate.
                            >
                            > *human beings living today, especially in the west
                            >
                            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > OK; got it. FYI:
                            > >
                            > > In native/traditional ceremonial life, at least across the Americas, whatever happened 'long ago' is still present in this place and anchored within and across the sacred landscape. All of what the culture heroes or originating beings brought about is still there - here - latent perhaps, but available to the shaman for the healing of present unbalance. The time factor, which is so important for the operation of the left-brain, technologically educated mind, is of only relatively trivial utility, for mundane affairs.
                            > > Within this Space-based world-system, one travels in space to restore spiritual connection which are located within the features of the geography; primarily the mountains and other significant landscape organs, but also to very local features which may be utterly unremarkable to anyone unfamiliar with the stories of the place.
                            > > As William Faulkner said: " The past is not over, its not even the past." Of course this does not make sense, or, if it does, only of the fringe, whacky type of the poet, who of course almost by definition does not deal in reality.
                            > >
                            > > For the "Time"-based reality, what is past is gone forever, unless some mad scientist invest a time machine. Even in a Time-system, there is no sacredness to it and it is regularized to the nth degree by atomic clocks, scheduled lifestyles, etc. Space is reduced to an obstacle.
                            > > I think one could make a good case that a Time-based system is an (inevitable?) artifact, perhaps a temporary one, of the disassociated Intellectual Soul.
                            > >
                            > > Just some ideas.
                            > >
                            > > Stephen
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > PS: I have no immediate idea as to what RS means in this passage.
                            > > >
                            > > > Good stuff to mediate upon....
                            > > >
                            > > > Stephen
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Lucas Dreier <lcdlists@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > This is a fascinating passage, but the translator (or editor) mixed up the
                            > > > > > words "Space" and "Time" at the end of the first paragraph so as to render
                            > > > > > the passage completely contradictory!
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > The last two sentences of the first paragraph should read as follows
                            > > > > > (changed words marked in bold):
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "The reason why it is so hard for us to understand the traditions of
                            > > > > > primeval epochs, when we go back to them with the consciousness of
                            > > > > > present-day civilisation, is that they always had in mind *Space*, and not
                            > > > > > the world of *Time*. They regarded the world of *Time* only as an appendage
                            > > > > > of the world of *Space*.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > SRC: Hmmm...interesting, yes, but even more interesting if we knew what he was talking about, or, more interestingly, if we knew what those "primeval" peoples had in mind with this Space/Time thingie.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Presumably (or not, as the case might be, with regard to any particular peoples) modern but traditional and un-massacculturated cultures retain some of this same distinction, particularly in their mythology and ceremonialism. Exactly how this work in specific instances would be a very interesting thing to research.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > First of all we would need to determine exactly what RS had in mind with "Space" and "Time" in terms of his own Central-European stream and only then could we proceed to investigate how or if it applied to the case at hand in other, possibly non Indo-European types who have some similar, some vastly different world-outlooks.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Stephen
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • elfuncle
                            They´re not likely to be recognized online or in discussion forums. According to the manual, an extremely intense and comprehensive purification process is
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 23, 2011
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                              They´re not likely to be recognized online or in discussion forums. According to the manual, an extremely intense and comprehensive purification process is required, very intimate, private, and personal, and sufficiently advanced souls would not do their dirty laundry in public.

                              "Here again is another important rule for the student: know how to observe silence concerning your spiritual experiences." (--GA 10)

                              Another requisite discipline consists of refraining from any utterance that has not been thoroughly purged in thought. Reminiscent of Matthew 15:11.

                              Tarjei

                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Yeah but do you know anyone who can use it?
                              >
                              > Stephen
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                              > > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > For the "Time"-based reality, what is past is gone forever, unless
                              > > some mad scientist invest a time machine.
                              > >
                              > > I seem to recall some mad scientist who invested his labor in a time
                              > > travel contraption called the Akasha Chronicle or the Akashic Records or
                              > > something like that. He claimed anyone who acquired the skill to operate
                              > > this device could travel to the past with it. This, of course, is stark
                              > > raving madness, just ask about it in the hole and they´ll tell you.
                              > >
                              > > Tarjei
                              > >
                              >

                            • bikhe hozho
                              My question, as asked, would be satisfied by a simple yes or no , not that you identify anyone in particular. I presume that you do not know of anyone who
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 26, 2011
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                                My question, as asked, would be satisfied by a simple "yes" or "no", not that you identify anyone in particular.

                                I presume that you do not know of anyone who can navigate the akasha.

                                You're blowing smoke.

                                Stephen



                                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > They´re not likely to be recognized online or in discussion forums.
                                > According to the manual, an extremely intense and comprehensive
                                > purification process is required, very intimate, private, and personal,
                                > and sufficiently advanced souls would not do their dirty laundry in
                                > public.
                                >
                                > "Here again is another important rule for the student: know how to
                                > observe silence concerning your spiritual experiences." (--GA 10)
                                >
                                > Another requisite discipline consists of refraining from any utterance
                                > that has not been thoroughly purged in thought. Reminiscent of Matthew
                                > 15:11.
                                >
                                > Tarjei
                                >
                                > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Yeah but do you know anyone who can use it?
                                > >
                                > > Stephen
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@
                                > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                > > > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > > For the "Time"-based reality, what is past is gone forever, unless
                                > > > some mad scientist invest a time machine.
                                > > >
                                > > > I seem to recall some mad scientist who invested his labor in a time
                                > > > travel contraption called the Akasha Chronicle or the Akashic
                                > Records or
                                > > > something like that. He claimed anyone who acquired the skill to
                                > operate
                                > > > this device could travel to the past with it. This, of course, is
                                > stark
                                > > > raving madness, just ask about it in the hole and they´ll tell
                                > you.
                                > > >
                                > > > Tarjei
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • elfuncle
                                First off, the intention of my comment was to indicate how extremely hared work is required to achieve that level of initiation in a wide-awake condition.
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 26, 2011
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                                  First off, the intention of my comment was to indicate how extremely hared work is required to achieve that level of initiation in a wide-awake condition. Familiarity with the basic books of RS should make that clear to any serious student of spiritual science.

                                  Secondly, I never respond to any questions of even the slightest personal nature in a public forum, especially when such "demands for answers" have a hostile intent.

                                  This brings me to my third point, namely that your comment on "blowing smoke" indicates hostility, perhaps inspired by the holedwellers who claim precisely that about all of Steiner´s works with regard to the Akasha, and perhaps also influenced by your personal frustrations and dissatisfactions that have nothing to do with me or with anyone else in this forum, things that are none of my business. That was why I pointed to the importance of purging everything in thought before it is uttered, and I would emphasize that choice of vocabulary is an important part of this discipline. Constant attacks against other contributors to this forum work as hindrances when it comes to the kind of higher development that may eventually lead to reading the Akasha.

                                  You my chime in the the holefolks by calling this anthrobabble, smoke-lowing, nonsense and anything else you can think of, and then you can always try the Dark Side to see if they have a shortcut to the Aksahs.

                                  First, though, I think you should have a long and hard talk with Jesus about your hostilities. We´ll be praying for you at the next Lovathon.

                                  Tarjei

                                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > My question, as asked, would be satisfied by a simple "yes" or "no", not that you identify anyone in particular.
                                  >
                                  > I presume that you do not know of anyone who can navigate the akasha.
                                  >
                                  > You're blowing smoke.
                                  >
                                  > Stephen
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@ wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > They´re not likely to be recognized online or in discussion forums.
                                  > > According to the manual, an extremely intense and comprehensive
                                  > > purification process is required, very intimate, private, and personal,
                                  > > and sufficiently advanced souls would not do their dirty laundry in
                                  > > public.
                                  > >
                                  > > "Here again is another important rule for the student: know how to
                                  > > observe silence concerning your spiritual experiences." (--GA 10)
                                  > >
                                  > > Another requisite discipline consists of refraining from any utterance
                                  > > that has not been thoroughly purged in thought. Reminiscent of Matthew
                                  > > 15:11.
                                  > >
                                  > > Tarjei
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                  > > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yeah but do you know anyone who can use it?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Stephen
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                  > > > > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > > For the "Time"-based reality, what is past is gone forever, unless
                                  > > > > some mad scientist invest a time machine.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I seem to recall some mad scientist who invested his labor in a time
                                  > > > > travel contraption called the Akasha Chronicle or the Akashic
                                  > > Records or
                                  > > > > something like that. He claimed anyone who acquired the skill to
                                  > > operate
                                  > > > > this device could travel to the past with it. This, of course, is
                                  > > stark
                                  > > > > raving madness, just ask about it in the hole and they´ll tell
                                  > > you.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Tarjei
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >

                                • bikhe hozho
                                  I guess this means that you do not know of anyone who has had positive results in trying to access the akasha. OK. Just wondering. I do know of people who
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 26, 2011
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                                    I guess this means that you do not know of anyone who has had positive results in trying to access the akasha. OK. Just wondering. I do know of people who have had positive results, but either by freak native talent or methods of training /initiation other than Steiner's. I agree its difficult. I do discount the opinions on anything by people who have only opinions but no actual experience or know of no one who has personal experience, that's all.

                                    Regarding hostility, you're projecting.

                                    Stephen



                                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > First off, the intention of my comment was to indicate how extremely
                                    > hared work is required to achieve that level of initiation in a
                                    > wide-awake condition. Familiarity with the basic books of RS should make
                                    > that clear to any serious student of spiritual science.
                                    >
                                    > Secondly, I never respond to any questions of even the slightest
                                    > personal nature in a public forum, especially when such "demands for
                                    > answers" have a hostile intent.
                                    >
                                    > This brings me to my third point, namely that your comment on "blowing
                                    > smoke" indicates hostility, perhaps inspired by the holedwellers who
                                    > claim precisely that about all of Steiner´s works with regard to the
                                    > Akasha, and perhaps also influenced by your personal frustrations and
                                    > dissatisfactions that have nothing to do with me or with anyone else in
                                    > this forum, things that are none of my business. That was why I pointed
                                    > to the importance of purging everything in thought before it is uttered,
                                    > and I would emphasize that choice of vocabulary is an important part of
                                    > this discipline. Constant attacks against other contributors to this
                                    > forum work as hindrances when it comes to the kind of higher development
                                    > that may eventually lead to reading the Akasha.
                                    >
                                    > You my chime in the the holefolks by calling this anthrobabble,
                                    > smoke-lowing, nonsense and anything else you can think of, and then you
                                    > can always try the Dark Side to see if they have a shortcut to the
                                    > Aksahs.
                                    >
                                    > First, though, I think you should have a long and hard talk with Jesus
                                    > about your hostilities. We´ll be praying for you at the next
                                    > Lovathon.
                                    >
                                    > Tarjei
                                    >
                                    > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                    > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > My question, as asked, would be satisfied by a simple "yes" or "no",
                                    > not that you identify anyone in particular.
                                    > >
                                    > > I presume that you do not know of anyone who can navigate the akasha.
                                    > >
                                    > > You're blowing smoke.
                                    > >
                                    > > Stephen
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > They´re not likely to be recognized online or in discussion
                                    > forums.
                                    > > > According to the manual, an extremely intense and comprehensive
                                    > > > purification process is required, very intimate, private, and
                                    > personal,
                                    > > > and sufficiently advanced souls would not do their dirty laundry in
                                    > > > public.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > "Here again is another important rule for the student: know how to
                                    > > > observe silence concerning your spiritual experiences." (--GA 10)
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Another requisite discipline consists of refraining from any
                                    > utterance
                                    > > > that has not been thoroughly purged in thought. Reminiscent of
                                    > Matthew
                                    > > > 15:11.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Tarjei
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                    > > > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Yeah but do you know anyone who can use it?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Stephen
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
                                    > elfuncle@
                                    > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                    > > > > > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > For the "Time"-based reality, what is past is gone forever,
                                    > unless
                                    > > > > > some mad scientist invest a time machine.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I seem to recall some mad scientist who invested his labor in a
                                    > time
                                    > > > > > travel contraption called the Akasha Chronicle or the Akashic
                                    > > > Records or
                                    > > > > > something like that. He claimed anyone who acquired the skill to
                                    > > > operate
                                    > > > > > this device could travel to the past with it. This, of course,
                                    > is
                                    > > > stark
                                    > > > > > raving madness, just ask about it in the hole and they´ll
                                    > tell
                                    > > > you.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Tarjei
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • elfuncle
                                    Frankly, what a person who calls me an anal cavity and tells me to urinate thinks about my opinions is totally uninteresting and irrelevant, and it´s
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 26, 2011
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                                      Frankly, what a person who calls me an anal cavity and tells me to urinate thinks about my opinions is totally uninteresting and irrelevant, and it´s surprising that you seem to assume otherwise.

                                      Tarjei


                                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I guess this means that you do not know of anyone who has had positive results in trying to access the akasha. OK. Just wondering. I do know of people who have had positive results, but either by freak native talent or methods of training /initiation other than Steiner's. I agree its difficult. I do discount the opinions on anything by people who have only opinions but no actual experience or know of no one who has personal experience, that's all.
                                      >
                                      > Regarding hostility, you're projecting.
                                      >
                                      > Stephen
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@ wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > First off, the intention of my comment was to indicate how extremely
                                      > > hared work is required to achieve that level of initiation in a
                                      > > wide-awake condition. Familiarity with the basic books of RS should make
                                      > > that clear to any serious student of spiritual science.
                                      > >
                                      > > Secondly, I never respond to any questions of even the slightest
                                      > > personal nature in a public forum, especially when such "demands for
                                      > > answers" have a hostile intent.
                                      > >
                                      > > This brings me to my third point, namely that your comment on "blowing
                                      > > smoke" indicates hostility, perhaps inspired by the holedwellers who
                                      > > claim precisely that about all of Steiner´s works with regard to the
                                      > > Akasha, and perhaps also influenced by your personal frustrations and
                                      > > dissatisfactions that have nothing to do with me or with anyone else in
                                      > > this forum, things that are none of my business. That was why I pointed
                                      > > to the importance of purging everything in thought before it is uttered,
                                      > > and I would emphasize that choice of vocabulary is an important part of
                                      > > this discipline. Constant attacks against other contributors to this
                                      > > forum work as hindrances when it comes to the kind of higher development
                                      > > that may eventually lead to reading the Akasha.
                                      > >
                                      > > You my chime in the the holefolks by calling this anthrobabble,
                                      > > smoke-lowing, nonsense and anything else you can think of, and then you
                                      > > can always try the Dark Side to see if they have a shortcut to the
                                      > > Aksahs.
                                      > >
                                      > > First, though, I think you should have a long and hard talk with Jesus
                                      > > about your hostilities. We´ll be praying for you at the next
                                      > > Lovathon.
                                      > >
                                      > > Tarjei
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                      > > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > My question, as asked, would be satisfied by a simple "yes" or "no",
                                      > > not that you identify anyone in particular.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I presume that you do not know of anyone who can navigate the akasha.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > You're blowing smoke.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Stephen
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > They´re not likely to be recognized online or in discussion
                                      > > forums.
                                      > > > > According to the manual, an extremely intense and comprehensive
                                      > > > > purification process is required, very intimate, private, and
                                      > > personal,
                                      > > > > and sufficiently advanced souls would not do their dirty laundry in
                                      > > > > public.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > "Here again is another important rule for the student: know how to
                                      > > > > observe silence concerning your spiritual experiences." (--GA 10)
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Another requisite discipline consists of refraining from any
                                      > > utterance
                                      > > > > that has not been thoroughly purged in thought. Reminiscent of
                                      > > Matthew
                                      > > > > 15:11.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Tarjei
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                      > > > > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Yeah but do you know anyone who can use it?
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Stephen
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
                                      > > elfuncle@
                                      > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                      > > > > > > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > For the "Time"-based reality, what is past is gone forever,
                                      > > unless
                                      > > > > > > some mad scientist invest a time machine.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I seem to recall some mad scientist who invested his labor in a
                                      > > time
                                      > > > > > > travel contraption called the Akasha Chronicle or the Akashic
                                      > > > > Records or
                                      > > > > > > something like that. He claimed anyone who acquired the skill to
                                      > > > > operate
                                      > > > > > > this device could travel to the past with it. This, of course,
                                      > > is
                                      > > > > stark
                                      > > > > > > raving madness, just ask about it in the hole and they´ll
                                      > > tell
                                      > > > > you.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Tarjei
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >

                                    • hozhonahasglii
                                      Why don t you just address the question: Rudolf Steiner based a very large amount of his public work upon his research using the akashic record and claimed
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jun 27, 2011
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                                        Why don't you just address the question: Rudolf Steiner based a very large amount of his public work upon his research using the akashic record and claimed that anyone who followed his instructions and advice could do the same. Now its a hundred years later and what do we have to show for it? I'm not asking for the fabulous "proof" a la Waldorf Critics - this has nothing to do with them - but inquiring about "Does it work?" Who in the history of the Anthroposophic Society has been able to duplicate any of Steiner's procedures and verify them? He expected society in general to become remade as a result of people manifesting spiritual capabilities. This is public work, I would presume. So, where's the beef?

                                        The simplest explanation is the preferred one, evidence to the contrary lacking. That would be that, as presented in the available information, at best, something essential is missing and that Steiner's method is not effective. This is a real question in the history of the Society, one that has never been addressed and is avoided at all costs, case in hand.

                                        This is not personal, but you can make it so if you wish.

                                        Stephen



                                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Frankly, what a person who calls me an anal cavity and tells me to
                                        > urinate thinks about my opinions is totally uninteresting and
                                        > irrelevant, and it´s surprising that you seem to assume otherwise.
                                        >
                                        > Tarjei
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                        > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I guess this means that you do not know of anyone who has had positive
                                        > results in trying to access the akasha. OK. Just wondering. I do know
                                        > of people who have had positive results, but either by freak native
                                        > talent or methods of training /initiation other than Steiner's. I agree
                                        > its difficult. I do discount the opinions on anything by people who have
                                        > only opinions but no actual experience or know of no one who has
                                        > personal experience, that's all.
                                        > >
                                        > > Regarding hostility, you're projecting.
                                        > >
                                        > > Stephen
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@
                                        > wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > First off, the intention of my comment was to indicate how extremely
                                        > > > hared work is required to achieve that level of initiation in a
                                        > > > wide-awake condition. Familiarity with the basic books of RS should
                                        > make
                                        > > > that clear to any serious student of spiritual science.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Secondly, I never respond to any questions of even the slightest
                                        > > > personal nature in a public forum, especially when such "demands for
                                        > > > answers" have a hostile intent.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > This brings me to my third point, namely that your comment on
                                        > "blowing
                                        > > > smoke" indicates hostility, perhaps inspired by the holedwellers who
                                        > > > claim precisely that about all of Steiner´s works with regard to
                                        > the
                                        > > > Akasha, and perhaps also influenced by your personal frustrations
                                        > and
                                        > > > dissatisfactions that have nothing to do with me or with anyone else
                                        > in
                                        > > > this forum, things that are none of my business. That was why I
                                        > pointed
                                        > > > to the importance of purging everything in thought before it is
                                        > uttered,
                                        > > > and I would emphasize that choice of vocabulary is an important part
                                        > of
                                        > > > this discipline. Constant attacks against other contributors to this
                                        > > > forum work as hindrances when it comes to the kind of higher
                                        > development
                                        > > > that may eventually lead to reading the Akasha.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > You my chime in the the holefolks by calling this anthrobabble,
                                        > > > smoke-lowing, nonsense and anything else you can think of, and then
                                        > you
                                        > > > can always try the Dark Side to see if they have a shortcut to the
                                        > > > Aksahs.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > First, though, I think you should have a long and hard talk with
                                        > Jesus
                                        > > > about your hostilities. We´ll be praying for you at the next
                                        > > > Lovathon.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Tarjei
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                        > > > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > My question, as asked, would be satisfied by a simple "yes" or
                                        > "no",
                                        > > > not that you identify anyone in particular.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I presume that you do not know of anyone who can navigate the
                                        > akasha.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > You're blowing smoke.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Stephen
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
                                        > elfuncle@
                                        > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > They´re not likely to be recognized online or in discussion
                                        > > > forums.
                                        > > > > > According to the manual, an extremely intense and comprehensive
                                        > > > > > purification process is required, very intimate, private, and
                                        > > > personal,
                                        > > > > > and sufficiently advanced souls would not do their dirty laundry
                                        > in
                                        > > > > > public.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > "Here again is another important rule for the student: know how
                                        > to
                                        > > > > > observe silence concerning your spiritual experiences." (--GA
                                        > 10)
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Another requisite discipline consists of refraining from any
                                        > > > utterance
                                        > > > > > that has not been thoroughly purged in thought. Reminiscent of
                                        > > > Matthew
                                        > > > > > 15:11.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Tarjei
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                        > > > > > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Yeah but do you know anyone who can use it?
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Stephen
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
                                        > > > elfuncle@
                                        > > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                        > > > > > > > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > For the "Time"-based reality, what is past is gone
                                        > forever,
                                        > > > unless
                                        > > > > > > > some mad scientist invest a time machine.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > I seem to recall some mad scientist who invested his labor
                                        > in a
                                        > > > time
                                        > > > > > > > travel contraption called the Akasha Chronicle or the
                                        > Akashic
                                        > > > > > Records or
                                        > > > > > > > something like that. He claimed anyone who acquired the
                                        > skill to
                                        > > > > > operate
                                        > > > > > > > this device could travel to the past with it. This, of
                                        > course,
                                        > > > is
                                        > > > > > stark
                                        > > > > > > > raving madness, just ask about it in the hole and they´ll
                                        > > > tell
                                        > > > > > you.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > Tarjei
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • dottie zold
                                        In order to navigate the Akasha Stephen, properly, you  must have lost your bite.   All good things, Dottie Hence only by means of love can we give real
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jun 27, 2011
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                                          In order to navigate the Akasha Stephen, properly, you  must have lost your bite.
                                           
                                          All good things,
                                          Dottie

                                          "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                                          --- On Sun, 6/26/11, elfuncle <elfuncle@...> wrote:

                                          From: elfuncle <elfuncle@...>
                                          Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The mad scientist
                                          To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Sunday, June 26, 2011, 9:49 PM

                                           
                                          Frankly, what a person who calls me an anal cavity and tells me to urinate thinks about my opinions is totally uninteresting and irrelevant, and it´s surprising that you seem to assume otherwise.

                                          Tarjei


                                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I guess this means that you do not know of anyone who has had positive results in trying to access the akasha. OK. Just wondering. I do know of people who have had positive results, but either by freak native talent or methods of training /initiation other than Steiner's. I agree its difficult. I do discount the opinions on anything by people who have only opinions but no actual experience or know of no one who has personal experience, that's all.
                                          >
                                          > Regarding hostility, you're projecting.
                                          >
                                          > Stephen
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@ wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > First off, the intention of my comment was to indicate how extremely
                                          > > hared work is required to achieve that level of initiation in a
                                          > > wide-awake condition. Familiarity with the basic books of RS should make
                                          > > that clear to any serious student of spiritual science.
                                          > >
                                          > > Secondly, I never respond to any questions of even the slightest
                                          > > personal nature in a public forum, especially when such "demands for
                                          > > answers" have a hostile intent.
                                          > >
                                          > > This brings me to my third point, namely that your comment on "blowing
                                          > > smoke" indicates hostility, perhaps inspired by the holedwellers who
                                          > > claim precisely that about all of Steiner´s works with regard to the
                                          > > Akasha, and perhaps also influenced by your personal frustrations and
                                          > > dissatisfactions that have nothing to do with me or with anyone else in
                                          > > this forum, things that are none of my business. That was why I pointed
                                          > > to the importance of purging everything in thought before it is uttered,
                                          > > and I would emphasize that choice of vocabulary is an important part of
                                          > > this discipline. Constant attacks against other contributors to this
                                          > > forum work as hindrances when it comes to the kind of higher development
                                          > > that may eventually lead to reading the Akasha.
                                          > >
                                          > > You my chime in the the holefolks by calling this anthrobabble,
                                          > > smoke-lowing, nonsense and anything else you can think of, and then you
                                          > > can always try the Dark Side to see if they have a shortcut to the
                                          > > Aksahs.
                                          > >
                                          > > First, though, I think you should have a long and hard talk with Jesus
                                          > > about your hostilities. We´ll be praying for you at the next
                                          > > Lovathon.
                                          > >
                                          > > Tarjei
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                          > > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > My question, as asked, would be satisfied by a simple "yes" or "no",
                                          > > not that you identify anyone in particular.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I presume that you do not know of anyone who can navigate the akasha.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > You're blowing smoke.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Stephen
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@
                                          > > wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > They´re not likely to be recognized online or in discussion
                                          > > forums.
                                          > > > > According to the manual, an extremely intense and comprehensive
                                          > > > > purification process is required, very intimate, private, and
                                          > > personal,
                                          > > > > and sufficiently advanced souls would not do their dirty laundry in
                                          > > > > public.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > "Here again is another important rule for the student: know how to
                                          > > > > observe silence concerning your spiritual experiences." (--GA 10)
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Another requisite discipline consists of refraining from any
                                          > > utterance
                                          > > > > that has not been thoroughly purged in thought. Reminiscent of
                                          > > Matthew
                                          > > > > 15:11.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Tarjei
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                          > > > > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Yeah but do you know anyone who can use it?
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Stephen
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
                                          > > elfuncle@
                                          > > > > wrote:
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho"
                                          > > > > > > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > For the "Time"-based reality, what is past is gone forever,
                                          > > unless
                                          > > > > > > some mad scientist invest a time machine.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > I seem to recall some mad scientist who invested his labor in a
                                          > > time
                                          > > > > > > travel contraption called the Akasha Chronicle or the Akashic
                                          > > > > Records or
                                          > > > > > > something like that. He claimed anyone who acquired the skill to
                                          > > > > operate
                                          > > > > > > this device could travel to the past with it. This, of course,
                                          > > is
                                          > > > > stark
                                          > > > > > > raving madness, just ask about it in the hole and they´ll
                                          > > tell
                                          > > > > you.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Tarjei
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >

                                        • hozhonahasglii
                                          So, Dottie, you can navigate the akasha? Is this right? Stephen
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jun 27, 2011
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                                            So, Dottie, you can navigate the akasha? Is this right?

                                            Stephen


                                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > In order to navigate the Akasha Stephen, properly, you  must have lost your bite.
                                            >  
                                            > All good things,
                                            > Dottie
                                          • dottie zold
                                            No I cannot and have not even tried and will not until I feel that I am handled in all ways that bespeaks humility.   I have experienced the world of sound
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jun 27, 2011
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                                              No I cannot and have not even tried and will not until I feel that I am handled in all ways that bespeaks humility.
                                               
                                              I have experienced the world of sound and also the world of color and I pulled back from that as well as I knew I was not prepared nor had the time space to prepare myself further.
                                               
                                              I have experienced the astral pictures before me since I was 31 out of questions that I was pondering and again I never looked further preferring to get myself handled in my speech and my feelings and what I do out of my feelings.
                                               
                                              The mantram I work and have worked since the beginning is Mabel Collins Light on the Path and in there one will find the path towards humility that is required to see rightly and to speak rightly and then the deeds brought forth will have balance.
                                               
                                              The time is upon me however to enter in and to have courage and so shall I begin this path this year.
                                               
                                              All good things,
                                              Dottie
                                               


                                               
                                              "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                                              --- On Mon, 6/27/11, hozhonahasglii <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:

                                              From: hozhonahasglii <hozhonahasglii@...>
                                              Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The mad scientist
                                              To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Monday, June 27, 2011, 8:25 AM

                                               
                                              So, Dottie, you can navigate the akasha? Is this right?

                                              Stephen

                                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > In order to navigate the Akasha Stephen, properly, you  must have lost your bite.
                                              >  
                                              > All good things,
                                              > Dottie

                                            • dottie zold
                                              Light on the Path by Mabel Collins (Highlighted text in the body of the document will hyperlink you to the appropriate note in the NOTES sections — to return
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jun 27, 2011
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                                                Light on the Path by Mabel Collins
                                                (Highlighted text in the body of the document will hyperlink you to the appropriate note in the NOTES sections — to return to the text, click on highlighted note number.)

                                                LIGHT ON THE PATH

                                                PART I

                                                PART I

                                                THESE rules are written for all disciples: Attend you to them.
                                                 
                                                Before the eyes can see, they must be incapable of tears.
                                                Before the ear can hear, it must have lost its sensitiveness.
                                                Before the voice can speak in the presence of the Masters it must have lost the power to wound.
                                                Before the soul can stand in the presence of the Masters its feet must be washed in the blood of the heart
                                                .
                                                1. Kill out ambition.
                                                2. Kill out desire of life.
                                                3. Kill out desire of comfort.
                                                4. Work as those work who are ambitious.
                                                 
                                                Respect life as those do who desire it. Be happy as those are who live for happiness.
                                                Seek in the heart the source of evil and expunge it. It lives fruitfully in the heart of the devoted disciple as well as in the heart of the man of desire. Only the strong can kill it out. The weak must wait for its growth, its fruition, its death. And it is a plant that lives and increases throughout the ages. It flowers when the man has accumulated unto himself innumerable existences. He who will enter upon the path of power must tear this thing out of his heart. And then the heart will bleed, and the whole life of the man seem to be utterly dissolved. This ordeal must be endured; it may come at the first step of the perilous ladder which leads to the path of life: it may not come until the last. But, O disciple, remember that it has to be endured: and fasten the energies of your soul upon the task. Live neither in the present nor the future, but in the eternal. This giant weed cannot flower there: this blot upon existence is wiped out by the very atmosphere of eternal thought.
                                                 
                                                5. Kill out all sense of separateness.
                                                 
                                                6. Kill out desire for sensation.
                                                 
                                                7. Kill out the hunger for growth.
                                                 
                                                8. Yet stand alone and isolated, because nothing that is imbodied, nothing that is conscious of separation, nothing that is out of the eternal, can aid you. Learn from sensation and observe it, because only so can you commence the science of self-knowledge, and plant your foot on the first step of the ladder. Grow as the flower grows, unconsciously, but eagerly anxious to open its soul to the air. So must you press forward to open your soul to the eternal. But it must be the eternal that draws forth your strength and beauty, not desire of growth. For in the one case you develop in the luxuriance of purity, in the other you harden by the forcible passion for personal stature.
                                                 
                                                9. Desire only that which is within you.
                                                 
                                                10. Desire only that which is beyond you.
                                                 
                                                11. Desire only that which is unattainable.
                                                 
                                                12. For within you is the light of the world — the only light that can be shed upon the Path. If you are unable to perceive it within you, it is useless to look for it elsewhere. It is beyond you; because when you reach it you have lost yourself. It is unattainable, because it for ever recedes. You will enter the light, but you will never touch the flame.
                                                 
                                                13. Desire power ardently.
                                                 
                                                14. Desire peace fervently.
                                                 
                                                15. Desire possessions above all.
                                                 
                                                16. But those possessions must belong to
                                                the pure soul only, and be possessed therefore by all pure souls equally, and thus be the especial property of the whole only when united. Hunger for such possessions as can be held by the pure soul, that you may accumulate wealth for that united spirit of life which is your only true self. The peace you shall desire is that sacred peace which nothing can disturb, and in which the soul grows as does the holy flower upon the still lagoons. And that power which the disciple shall covet is that which shall make him appear as nothing in the eyes of men.
                                                 
                                                17. Seek out the way.
                                                 
                                                18. Seek the way by retreating within.
                                                 
                                                19. Seek the way by advancing boldly without.
                                                 
                                                20. Seek it not by any one road. To each temperament there is one road which seems the most desirable. But the way is not found by devotion alone, by religious contemplation alone, by ardent progress, by self-sacrificing labor, by studious observation of life. None alone can take the disciple more than one step onward. All steps are necessary to make up the ladder. The vices of men become steps in the ladder, one by one, as they are surmounted. The virtues of man are steps indeed, necessary — not by any means to be dispensed with. Yet, though they create a fair atmosphere and a happy future, they are useless if they stand alone. The whole nature of man must be used wisely by the one who desires to enter the way. Each man is to himself absolutely the way, the truth, and the life. But he is only so when he grasps his whole individuality firmly, and, by the force of his awakened spiritual will, recognizes this individuality as not himself, but that thing which he has with pain created for his own use, and by means of which he purposes, as his growth slowly develops his intelligence, to reach to the life beyond individuality. When he knows that for this his wonderful complex separated life exists, then, indeed, and then only, he is upon the way. Seek it by plunging into the mysterious and glorious depths of your own inmost being. Seek it by testing all experience, by utilizing the senses in order to understand the growth and meaning of individuality, and the beauty and obscurity of those other divine fragments which are struggling side by side with you, and form the race to which you belong. Seek it by study of the laws of being, the laws of nature, the laws of the supernatural: and seek it by making the profound obeisance of the soul to the dim star that burns within. Steadily, as you watch and worship, its light will grow stronger. Then you may know you have found the beginning of the way. And when you have found the end its light will suddenly become the infinite light.
                                                 
                                                21. Look for the flower to bloom in the silence that follows the storm: not till then.
                                                It shall grow, it will shoot up, it will make branches and leaves and form buds, while the storm continues, while the battle lasts. But not till the whole personality of the man is dissolved and melted — not until it is held by the divine fragment which has created it, as a mere subject for grave experiment and experience — not until the whole nature has yielded and become subject unto its higher self, can the bloom open. Then will come a calm such as comes in a tropical country after the heavy rain, when Nature works so swiftly that one may see her action. Such a calm will come to the harassed spirit. And in the deep silence the mysterious event will occur which will prove that the way has been found. Call it by what name you will, it is a voice that speaks where there is none to speak — it is a messenger that comes, a messenger without form or substance; or it is the flower of the soul that has opened. It cannot be described by any metaphor. But it can be felt after, looked for, and desired, even amid the raging of the storm. The silence may last a moment of time or it may last a thousand years. But it will end. Yet you will carry its strength with you. Again and again the battle must be fought and won. It is only for an interval that Nature can be still.
                                                 
                                                These written above are the first of the rules which are written on the walls of the Hall of Learning. Those that ask shall have. Those that desire to read shall read. Those who desire to learn shall learn.
                                                 
                                                PEACE BE WITH YOU.

                                                "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner

                                              • elfuncle
                                                If you´re thoroughly familiar with GA 10 and GA 13, you should know perfectly well that it takes an extremely long time and boundless patience just to purify
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jun 27, 2011
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                                                  If you´re thoroughly familiar with GA 10 and GA 13, you should know perfectly well that it takes an extremely long time and boundless patience just to purify the ordinary sense-bound ´Í´ -- perhaps several lifetimes -- before the high ´Í´ can be awakened through the formation of spiritual organs of perception resembling lotus flowers to supersensible perception. It´s an extremely advanced state where Steiner may have been millennia ahead of average humanity. And one sure way to come up short is to expect "results." The exercises should be an end in itself, with no expectation to "see" things.

                                                  With regard to your own statements, you contradict yourself. First you claim that nobody can visit the past unless it´s a "mad professor" with a "time machine," i.e. pure science fiction. Then you clam that some friend of yours has achieved "results" in this allegedly impossible or non-existent field. Apart from the contradiction here, this also looks like impatience for "results," which will yield nothingness.


                                                  http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA013/English/RSP1963/GA013_c05-04.html 

                                                  "The pupil who has the right attitude to his exercises will find increasingly that the very doing of them is something he can love for its own sake. He knows moreover that the doing of them places him already in a world of soul and spirit, and he waits with patience and above all with devotion for what is to come. This mood in the pupil can be best lifted into consciousness in the following words: "I am resolved to carry out whatever exercises are right for me, and I know that I shall meantime be receiving as much as is important for me to receive. I do not demand it, I am not impatient; I simply hold myself ready all the time to receive it." It is quite wrong to contend: "So then the pupil is to grope his way on in the dark, perhaps for an incredibly long time, with no means of knowing that he is on the right path until success prove it to him!" For it is simply not true that the pupil has to wait for the exercises to achieve their end before he can be assured of their validity. If he undertakes them in the right spirit he need not wait for their eventual outcome; the satisfaction that he has in doing them will of itself make it clear to him that he is on the true path. Proper practice of exercises belonging to a path of spiritual training brings with it a sense of satisfaction that is no mere satisfaction but certain knowledge. The pupil knows: I am engaging in an activity which I can see is taking me forward in the right direction. Every pupil of the Spirit can have this certainty at every moment, if only he observes his experiences with sensitive discernment. If he is crudely inattentive, he is letting them go past him like a person out walking who is so deeply absorbed in his own reflections that he does not see the trees on either side of his path — although he could quite well be seeing them if he would only turn his eyes in their direction.

                                                  "It is indeed undesirable that any other result than this one, which always attends the doing of the exercises, should be induced before the time is due. For it may well be that a seemingly successful result is no more than the smallest fraction of what should ensue in right and proper course. In spiritual development a partial success will often lead to a prolonged postponement of complete success. Moving familiarly among such forms of spiritual life as disclose themselves at an imperfect stage renders one insusceptible to influences that lead to higher levels of development. The seeming boon — namely the fact that one has after all had sight of the spiritual world — is not really a boon at all; this kind of "beholding" cannot impart objective truth but only delusive pictures."
                                                   
                                                  You seem to be searching for a live guru or master, but you´re not likely to find that in any online discussion forum. Venting your frustrations by trying to ridicule Dottie, me or anyone else you come across for not reading the Akasha doesn´t help. If basic books like GA 10 and GA 13 don´t do anything for you, perhaps anthroposophically oriented spiritual science is not your thing. Your less than high opinion of Marie Steiner may also be  clear indication of that. Maybe you don´t feel at home with the holefolks, but that buddy of yours who has achieved those results you mention independently of Steiner´s approach should be able to help you, provided you haven´t alienated him or her with name-calling -- a habit that would be a major hindrance of higher development through the path that this forum is focused upon.

                                                  Finally I don´t address any questions on hostile demand. Others have tried that in the past and failed miserably. Try barking up a different tree.

                                                  Tarjei


                                                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "hozhonahasglii" <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Why don't you just address the question: Rudolf Steiner based a very large amount of his public work upon his research using the akashic record and claimed that anyone who followed his instructions and advice could do the same. Now its a hundred years later and what do we have to show for it? I'm not asking for the fabulous "proof" a la Waldorf Critics - this has nothing to do with them - but inquiring about "Does it work?" Who in the history of the Anthroposophic Society has been able to duplicate any of Steiner's procedures and verify them? He expected society in general to become remade as a result of people manifesting spiritual capabilities. This is public work, I would presume. So, where's the beef?
                                                  >
                                                  > The simplest explanation is the preferred one, evidence to the contrary lacking. That would be that, as presented in the available information, at best, something essential is missing and that Steiner's method is not effective. This is a real question in the history of the Society, one that has never been addressed and is avoided at all costs, case in hand.
                                                  >
                                                  > This is not personal, but you can make it so if you wish.
                                                  >
                                                  > Stephen

                                                • dottie zold
                                                  I think that s an important part of this Taz: the patience and no expectations element.   I know for me I have been acutely aware that I couldn t want more
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jun 27, 2011
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                                                    I think that's an important part of this Taz: the patience and no expectations element.
                                                     
                                                    I know for me I have been acutely aware that I couldn't want more than I was to know and was very cognizant when something was here that I did not understand. I do believe or it is my understanding that sometimes a capacity for this can be had in this lifetime out of past biographies. I think myself fortunate that I am of the personality that was not a glutton for an experience and rather trusted that I was on a path and that I had to get my self handled first before seeking even higher ground that I had brought with me from the past.
                                                     
                                                    I think a great pitfall for those I have seen with intelligence here on lists is this pride in a way and this push for the experience and denying others because they were unable to access or achieve a certain thing: and for sure if they could not achieve it neither can you if you are deemed less then them in their eyes.... its an interesting dilemma to be blessed with an intelligence and yet not be able to get pride and arrogance out of the way
                                                     
                                                    All good things,
                                                    Dottie

                                                    "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                                                    --- On Mon, 6/27/11, elfuncle <elfuncle@...> wrote:

                                                    From: elfuncle <elfuncle@...>
                                                    Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The mad scientist
                                                    To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Date: Monday, June 27, 2011, 8:53 AM

                                                     
                                                    If you´re thoroughly familiar with GA 10 and GA 13, you should know perfectly well that it takes an extremely long time and boundless patience just to purify the ordinary sense-bound ´Í´ -- perhaps several lifetimes -- before the high ´Í´ can be awakened through the formation of spiritual organs of perception resembling lotus flowers to supersensible perception. It´s an extremely advanced state where Steiner may have been millennia ahead of average humanity. And one sure way to come up short is to expect "results." The exercises should be an end in itself, with no expectation to "see" things.

                                                    With regard to your own statements, you contradict yourself. First you claim that nobody can visit the past unless it´s a "mad professor" with a "time machine," i.e. pure science fiction. Then you clam that some friend of yours has achieved "results" in this allegedly impossible or non-existent field. Apart from the contradiction here, this also looks like impatience for "results," which will yield nothingness.


                                                    http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA013/English/RSP1963/GA013_c05-04.html 

                                                    "The pupil who has the right attitude to his exercises will find increasingly that the very doing of them is something he can love for its own sake. He knows moreover that the doing of them places him already in a world of soul and spirit, and he waits with patience and above all with devotion for what is to come. This mood in the pupil can be best lifted into consciousness in the following words: "I am resolved to carry out whatever exercises are right for me, and I know that I shall meantime be receiving as much as is important for me to receive. I do not demand it, I am not impatient; I simply hold myself ready all the time to receive it." It is quite wrong to contend: "So then the pupil is to grope his way on in the dark, perhaps for an incredibly long time, with no means of knowing that he is on the right path until success prove it to him!" For it is simply not true that the pupil has to wait for the exercises to achieve their end before he can be assured of their validity. If he undertakes them in the right spirit he need not wait for their eventual outcome; the satisfaction that he has in doing them will of itself make it clear to him that he is on the true path. Proper practice of exercises belonging to a path of spiritual training brings with it a sense of satisfaction that is no mere satisfaction but certain knowledge. The pupil knows: I am engaging in an activity which I can see is taking me forward in the right direction. Every pupil of the Spirit can have this certainty at every moment, if only he observes his experiences with sensitive discernment. If he is crudely inattentive, he is letting them go past him like a person out walking who is so deeply absorbed in his own reflections that he does not see the trees on either side of his path — although he could quite well be seeing them if he would only turn his eyes in their direction.

                                                    "It is indeed undesirable that any other result than this one, which always attends the doing of the exercises, should be induced before the time is due. For it may well be that a seemingly successful result is no more than the smallest fraction of what should ensue in right and proper course. In spiritual development a partial success will often lead to a prolonged postponement of complete success. Moving familiarly among such forms of spiritual life as disclose themselves at an imperfect stage renders one insusceptible to influences that lead to higher levels of development. The seeming boon — namely the fact that one has after all had sight of the spiritual world — is not really a boon at all; this kind of "beholding" cannot impart objective truth but only delusive pictures."
                                                     
                                                    You seem to be searching for a live guru or master, but you´re not likely to find that in any online discussion forum. Venting your frustrations by trying to ridicule Dottie, me or anyone else you come across for not reading the Akasha doesn´t help. If basic books like GA 10 and GA 13 don´t do anything for you, perhaps anthroposophically oriented spiritual science is not your thing. Your less than high opinion of Marie Steiner may also be  clear indication of that. Maybe you don´t feel at home with the holefolks, but that buddy of yours who has achieved those results you mention independently of Steiner´s approach should be able to help you, provided you haven´t alienated him or her with name-calling -- a habit that would be a major hindrance of higher development through the path that this forum is focused upon.

                                                    Finally I don´t address any questions on hostile demand. Others have tried that in the past and failed miserably. Try barking up a different tree.

                                                    Tarjei


                                                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "hozhonahasglii" <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Why don't you just address the question: Rudolf Steiner based a very large amount of his public work upon his research using the akashic record and claimed that anyone who followed his instructions and advice could do the same. Now its a hundred years later and what do we have to show for it? I'm not asking for the fabulous "proof" a la Waldorf Critics - this has nothing to do with them - but inquiring about "Does it work?" Who in the history of the Anthroposophic Society has been able to duplicate any of Steiner's procedures and verify them? He expected society in general to become remade as a result of people manifesting spiritual capabilities. This is public work, I would presume. So, where's the beef?
                                                    >
                                                    > The simplest explanation is the preferred one, evidence to the contrary lacking. That would be that, as presented in the available information, at best, something essential is missing and that Steiner's method is not effective. This is a real question in the history of the Society, one that has never been addressed and is avoided at all costs, case in hand.
                                                    >
                                                    > This is not personal, but you can make it so if you wish.
                                                    >
                                                    > Stephen

                                                  • bikhe hozho
                                                    You re completely mixed up on everything you are saying. This is pointless. Stephen
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jun 27, 2011
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                                                      You're completely mixed up on everything you are saying. This is pointless.

                                                      Stephen

                                                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > If you´re thoroughly familiar with GA 10 and GA 13, you should know
                                                      > perfectly well that it takes an extremely long time and boundless
                                                      > patience just to purify the ordinary sense-bound ´Í´ -- perhaps
                                                      > several lifetimes -- before the high ´Í´ can be awakened through the
                                                      > formation of spiritual organs of perception resembling lotus flowers to
                                                      > supersensible perception. It´s an extremely advanced state where
                                                      > Steiner may have been millennia ahead of average humanity. And one sure
                                                      > way to come up short is to expect "results." The exercises should be an
                                                      > end in itself, with no expectation to "see" things.
                                                      >
                                                      > With regard to your own statements, you contradict yourself. First you
                                                      > claim that nobody can visit the past unless it´s a "mad professor"
                                                      > with a "time machine," i.e. pure science fiction. Then you clam that
                                                      > some friend of yours has achieved "results" in this allegedly impossible
                                                      > or non-existent field. Apart from the contradiction here, this also
                                                      > looks like impatience for "results," which will yield nothingness.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA013/English/RSP1963/GA013_c05-04.html
                                                      > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA013/English/RSP1963/GA013_c05-04.html>
                                                      >
                                                      > "The pupil who has the right attitude to his exercises will find
                                                      > increasingly that the very doing of them is something he can love for
                                                      > its own sake. He knows moreover that the doing of them places him
                                                      > already in a world of soul and spirit, and he waits with patience and
                                                      > above all with devotion for what is to come. This mood in the pupil can
                                                      > be best lifted into consciousness in the following words: "I am
                                                      > resolved to carry out whatever exercises are right for me, and I know
                                                      > that I shall meantime be receiving as much as is important for me to
                                                      > receive. I do not demand it, I am not impatient; I simply hold myself
                                                      > ready all the time to receive it." It is quite wrong to contend:
                                                      > "So then the pupil is to grope his way on in the dark, perhaps for
                                                      > an incredibly long time, with no means of knowing that he is on the
                                                      > right path until success prove it to him!" For it is simply not true
                                                      > that the pupil has to wait for the exercises to achieve their end before
                                                      > he can be assured of their validity. If he undertakes them in the right
                                                      > spirit he need not wait for their eventual outcome; the satisfaction
                                                      > that he has in doing them will of itself make it clear to him that he is
                                                      > on the true path. Proper practice of exercises belonging to a path of
                                                      > spiritual training brings with it a sense of satisfaction that is no
                                                      > mere satisfaction but certain knowledge. The pupil knows: I am engaging
                                                      > in an activity which I can see is taking me forward in the right
                                                      > direction. Every pupil of the Spirit can have this certainty at every
                                                      > moment, if only he observes his experiences with sensitive discernment.
                                                      > If he is crudely inattentive, he is letting them go past him like a
                                                      > person out walking who is so deeply absorbed in his own reflections that
                                                      > he does not see the trees on either side of his path — although he
                                                      > could quite well be seeing them if he would only turn his eyes in their
                                                      > direction.
                                                      >
                                                      > "It is indeed undesirable that any other result than this one, which
                                                      > always attends the doing of the exercises, should be induced before the
                                                      > time is due. For it may well be that a seemingly successful result is no
                                                      > more than the smallest fraction of what should ensue in right and proper
                                                      > course. In spiritual development a partial success will often lead to a
                                                      > prolonged postponement of complete success. Moving familiarly among such
                                                      > forms of spiritual life as disclose themselves at an imperfect stage
                                                      > renders one insusceptible to influences that lead to higher levels of
                                                      > development. The seeming boon — namely the fact that one has after
                                                      > all had sight of the spiritual world — is not really a boon at all;
                                                      > this kind of "beholding" cannot impart objective truth but only
                                                      > delusive pictures."
                                                      >
                                                      > You seem to be searching for a live guru or master, but you´re not
                                                      > likely to find that in any online discussion forum. Venting your
                                                      > frustrations by trying to ridicule Dottie, me or anyone else you come
                                                      > across for not reading the Akasha doesn´t help. If basic books like
                                                      > GA 10 and GA 13 don´t do anything for you, perhaps anthroposophically
                                                      > oriented spiritual science is not your thing. Your less than high
                                                      > opinion of Marie Steiner may also be clear indication of that. Maybe
                                                      > you don´t feel at home with the holefolks, but that buddy of yours
                                                      > who has achieved those results you mention independently of Steiner´s
                                                      > approach should be able to help you, provided you haven´t alienated
                                                      > him or her with name-calling -- a habit that would be a major hindrance
                                                      > of higher development through the path that this forum is focused upon.
                                                      >
                                                      > Finally I don´t address any questions on hostile demand. Others have
                                                      > tried that in the past and failed miserably. Try barking up a different
                                                      > tree.
                                                      >
                                                      > Tarjei
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "hozhonahasglii"
                                                      > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Why don't you just address the question: Rudolf Steiner based a very
                                                      > large amount of his public work upon his research using the akashic
                                                      > record and claimed that anyone who followed his instructions and advice
                                                      > could do the same. Now its a hundred years later and what do we have to
                                                      > show for it? I'm not asking for the fabulous "proof" a la Waldorf
                                                      > Critics - this has nothing to do with them - but inquiring about "Does
                                                      > it work?" Who in the history of the Anthroposophic Society has been able
                                                      > to duplicate any of Steiner's procedures and verify them? He expected
                                                      > society in general to become remade as a result of people manifesting
                                                      > spiritual capabilities. This is public work, I would presume. So,
                                                      > where's the beef?
                                                      > >
                                                      > > The simplest explanation is the preferred one, evidence to the
                                                      > contrary lacking. That would be that, as presented in the available
                                                      > information, at best, something essential is missing and that Steiner's
                                                      > method is not effective. This is a real question in the history of the
                                                      > Society, one that has never been addressed and is avoided at all costs,
                                                      > case in hand.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > This is not personal, but you can make it so if you wish.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Stephen
                                                      >
                                                    • Frank Thomas Smith
                                                      In a new book by Gerhard von Beckerath, he quotes from a book by Adelheid Peterson – a contemporary and student of Rudolf Steiner s. In 1915 a member of the
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Jun 27, 2011
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                                                        In a new book by Gerhard von Beckerath, he quotes from a book by Adelheid Peterson – a contemporary and student of Rudolf Steiner's. In 1915 a member of the AS wrote a letter to Steiner in which she describes a dream she had, in which the expression "to get under the rainbow" appears. She is very moved by this and asks R.S: what it means.
                                                        "Well," says Steiner, "it means nothing less than to be an anthroposophist with the whole body and soul! I mean that literally. Take anthroposophy seriously! To practice life with all the indications as they are given in my book "Knowledge of Higher Worlds and its Attainment". Anthroposophy must be life-practice. Purification of the whole being. Development of the whole human being."
                                                        "But," he continues, "she won't do that. Just as the great majority do not. It is so uncomfortable and, of course, one cannot shine with these quiet years, decades really, of work on one's self."
                                                        (my translation)
                                                        von Beckerath's book is titled "Rudolf Steiners Leidenweg" (Rudolf Steiner's Path of suffering). The idea is that the members of the AS failed Steiner, because they did not take his indication seriously enough.

                                                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > If you´re thoroughly familiar with GA 10 and GA 13, you should know
                                                        > perfectly well that it takes an extremely long time and boundless
                                                        > patience just to purify the ordinary sense-bound ´Í´ -- perhaps
                                                        > several lifetimes -- before the high ´Í´ can be awakened through the
                                                        > formation of spiritual organs of perception resembling lotus flowers to
                                                        > supersensible perception. It´s an extremely advanced state where
                                                        > Steiner may have been millennia ahead of average humanity. And one sure
                                                        > way to come up short is to expect "results." The exercises should be an
                                                        > end in itself, with no expectation to "see" things.
                                                        >
                                                        > With regard to your own statements, you contradict yourself. First you
                                                        > claim that nobody can visit the past unless it´s a "mad professor"
                                                        > with a "time machine," i.e. pure science fiction. Then you clam that
                                                        > some friend of yours has achieved "results" in this allegedly impossible
                                                        > or non-existent field. Apart from the contradiction here, this also
                                                        > looks like impatience for "results," which will yield nothingness.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA013/English/RSP1963/GA013_c05-04.html
                                                        > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA013/English/RSP1963/GA013_c05-04.html>
                                                        >
                                                        > "The pupil who has the right attitude to his exercises will find
                                                        > increasingly that the very doing of them is something he can love for
                                                        > its own sake. He knows moreover that the doing of them places him
                                                        > already in a world of soul and spirit, and he waits with patience and
                                                        > above all with devotion for what is to come. This mood in the pupil can
                                                        > be best lifted into consciousness in the following words: "I am
                                                        > resolved to carry out whatever exercises are right for me, and I know
                                                        > that I shall meantime be receiving as much as is important for me to
                                                        > receive. I do not demand it, I am not impatient; I simply hold myself
                                                        > ready all the time to receive it." It is quite wrong to contend:
                                                        > "So then the pupil is to grope his way on in the dark, perhaps for
                                                        > an incredibly long time, with no means of knowing that he is on the
                                                        > right path until success prove it to him!" For it is simply not true
                                                        > that the pupil has to wait for the exercises to achieve their end before
                                                        > he can be assured of their validity. If he undertakes them in the right
                                                        > spirit he need not wait for their eventual outcome; the satisfaction
                                                        > that he has in doing them will of itself make it clear to him that he is
                                                        > on the true path. Proper practice of exercises belonging to a path of
                                                        > spiritual training brings with it a sense of satisfaction that is no
                                                        > mere satisfaction but certain knowledge. The pupil knows: I am engaging
                                                        > in an activity which I can see is taking me forward in the right
                                                        > direction. Every pupil of the Spirit can have this certainty at every
                                                        > moment, if only he observes his experiences with sensitive discernment.
                                                        > If he is crudely inattentive, he is letting them go past him like a
                                                        > person out walking who is so deeply absorbed in his own reflections that
                                                        > he does not see the trees on either side of his path — although he
                                                        > could quite well be seeing them if he would only turn his eyes in their
                                                        > direction.
                                                        >
                                                        > "It is indeed undesirable that any other result than this one, which
                                                        > always attends the doing of the exercises, should be induced before the
                                                        > time is due. For it may well be that a seemingly successful result is no
                                                        > more than the smallest fraction of what should ensue in right and proper
                                                        > course. In spiritual development a partial success will often lead to a
                                                        > prolonged postponement of complete success. Moving familiarly among such
                                                        > forms of spiritual life as disclose themselves at an imperfect stage
                                                        > renders one insusceptible to influences that lead to higher levels of
                                                        > development. The seeming boon — namely the fact that one has after
                                                        > all had sight of the spiritual world — is not really a boon at all;
                                                        > this kind of "beholding" cannot impart objective truth but only
                                                        > delusive pictures."
                                                        >
                                                        > You seem to be searching for a live guru or master, but you´re not
                                                        > likely to find that in any online discussion forum. Venting your
                                                        > frustrations by trying to ridicule Dottie, me or anyone else you come
                                                        > across for not reading the Akasha doesn´t help. If basic books like
                                                        > GA 10 and GA 13 don´t do anything for you, perhaps anthroposophically
                                                        > oriented spiritual science is not your thing. Your less than high
                                                        > opinion of Marie Steiner may also be clear indication of that. Maybe
                                                        > you don´t feel at home with the holefolks, but that buddy of yours
                                                        > who has achieved those results you mention independently of Steiner´s
                                                        > approach should be able to help you, provided you haven´t alienated
                                                        > him or her with name-calling -- a habit that would be a major hindrance
                                                        > of higher development through the path that this forum is focused upon.
                                                        >
                                                        > Finally I don´t address any questions on hostile demand. Others have
                                                        > tried that in the past and failed miserably. Try barking up a different
                                                        > tree.
                                                        >
                                                        > Tarjei
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "hozhonahasglii"
                                                        > <hozhonahasglii@> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Why don't you just address the question: Rudolf Steiner based a very
                                                        > large amount of his public work upon his research using the akashic
                                                        > record and claimed that anyone who followed his instructions and advice
                                                        > could do the same. Now its a hundred years later and what do we have to
                                                        > show for it? I'm not asking for the fabulous "proof" a la Waldorf
                                                        > Critics - this has nothing to do with them - but inquiring about "Does
                                                        > it work?" Who in the history of the Anthroposophic Society has been able
                                                        > to duplicate any of Steiner's procedures and verify them? He expected
                                                        > society in general to become remade as a result of people manifesting
                                                        > spiritual capabilities. This is public work, I would presume. So,
                                                        > where's the beef?
                                                        > >
                                                        > > The simplest explanation is the preferred one, evidence to the
                                                        > contrary lacking. That would be that, as presented in the available
                                                        > information, at best, something essential is missing and that Steiner's
                                                        > method is not effective. This is a real question in the history of the
                                                        > Society, one that has never been addressed and is avoided at all costs,
                                                        > case in hand.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > This is not personal, but you can make it so if you wish.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Stephen
                                                        >
                                                      • elfuncle
                                                        ... That´s an interesting comment, because most of that post of mine was pure and simple Steiner-quoting. As you once observed, anyone can quote Steiner and
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Jun 27, 2011
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                                                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > You're completely mixed up on everything you are saying. This is pointless.

                                                          That´s an interesting comment, because most of that post of mine was pure and simple Steiner-quoting. As you once observed, anyone can quote Steiner and that´s what I did. But it all looks mixed up to you, and it does not produce "results" like reading the Akasha, which only a mad scientist with a machine would try to do anyway. But there are other more effective paths and methods to clairvoyant initiation, I understand, less mixed up than Steiner and easier to comprehend.

                                                          Tarjei
                                                        • Kim
                                                          We came from the spiritual world, the world of Lucifer into the physical world, the world of Ahriman, from the world of time into the world of space.The longer
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Jul 2, 2011
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                                                            We came from the spiritual world, the world of Lucifer into the physical world, the world of Ahriman, from the world of time into the world of space.
                                                            The longer we sank into the world of space the less we felt time, and at the bottom we had no connection with the spiritual world any longer, time where meaningless, year in year out, we had only the seasons, just as the animals. We had developed our Sentient soul, but the sentient soul don't know time, it has no memory, except through external input like monuments. We see the same in by animals, they remember through sight. With the development of the Intellectual soul came time into play again.
                                                            Kim
                                                             
                                                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:
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                                                            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Lucas Dreier lcdlists@ wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > > This is a fascinating passage, but the translator (or editor) mixed up the
                                                            > > words "Space" and "Time" at the end of the first paragraph so as to render
                                                            > > the passage completely contradictory!
                                                            > >
                                                            > > The last two sentences of the first paragraph should read as follows
                                                            > > (changed words marked in bold):
                                                            > >
                                                            > > "The reason why it is so hard for us to understand the traditions of
                                                            > > primeval epochs, when we go back to them with the consciousness of
                                                            > > present-day civilisation, is that they always had in mind *Space*, and not
                                                            > > the world of *Time*. They regarded the world of *Time* only as an appendage
                                                            > > of the world of *Space*.
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                                                            > SRC: Hmmm...interesting, yes, but even more interesting if we knew what he was talking about, or, more interestingly, if we knew what those "primeval" peoples had in mind with this Space/Time thingie.
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                                                            > Presumably (or not, as the case might be, with regard to any particular peoples) modern but traditional and un-massacculturated cultures retain some of this same distinction, particularly in their mythology and ceremonialism. Exactly how this work in specific instances would be a very interesting thing to research.
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                                                            > First of all we would need to determine exactly what RS had in mind with "Space" and "Time" in terms of his own Central-European stream and only then could we proceed to investigate how or if it applied to the case at hand in other, possibly non Indo-European types who have some similar, some vastly different world-outlooks.
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                                                            > Stephen
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