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Re: Physics, Lucifer & Ahriman

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  • Kim
    Dear Stephen, The Big Bang was a rather big increase of energy in this universe, and there is a lot of things we don t know, fex. dark matter and dark energy.
    Message 1 of 137 , May 13, 2011
      Dear Stephen,

      The Big Bang was a rather big increase of energy in this universe, and there is a lot of things we don't know, fex. dark matter and dark energy. 

      I talked about the Earth as a local system and nobody can say that the Earth is not a local system with decreasing entropy, there couldn't be life on the Earth without local decrease in entropy, there couldn't be oil in the underground without local decrease in the local entropy, and so forth. When man uses oil we increase entropy. Of course, the total entropy of the sun-system decreases, but that is necessary for maintaining our local equilibrium.

      The physical laws and everything that happens on the Earth is sub and super spiritual emanations onto the physical plane, and everything follows and can be explained through these rules as long as we talk about physical incidences, when we talk about peoples spiritual experiences we go outside the physical laws. From the spiritual world they can influence the physical in ways which is seen as unlikely but not impossible, like it's said about the Holy Spirit's activity. It's costly, though, the bigger the impact the more energy the spiritual world need to use. Following Steiner are everything we see in the physical world the mind of elemental beings with their physical manifestations in the etheric and astral worlds, especially the Ahrimanic in the astral world, in the Karmic world, and changes here manifest in the physical, both positive as negative changes.

      To equilibrium: Following Steiner is the physical world the equilibrium between Ahriman and Lucifer, between Yin and Yang, between the sub and super physical, the chtlonic and spiritual world, and it's in this context I use equilibrium. Thermodynamics use the word equilibrium where entropy is greatest, and that I think is counterintuitive.

      Concerning Yin and Yang, I will show you the relation between Ahriman and Yin on many planes, starting with the creation myth, where Yin is the Earth and Yang is the heaven (Tao – The Equilibrium of Yin and Yang), and later show the relation in man (Serpents of the Kundalini Fire):

      All creation starts with the unity splits in two and later unifies again. From The Gold Egg Model:

      According to Chinese myth, before the world began there was chaos shaped like a hen's egg. The huge Pan Gu separated this egg into Yin and Yang. Yin formed the earth, Yang formed the sky. Yin stood for all the female, wet, dark things of nature, while Yang stood for all the male, dry and bright things. There could be no perfect happiness till there was a balance between Yin and Yang.

      Wuji is the uncreated, the primordial, limitless void, the possibility for the created and Taiji is the created, Yang and Yin, heaven and earth.
      Creation of the universe
      Creation

      Yang is generally associated with what are bright, warm, and in motion. Yin is generally associated with what are dark, still and cold.

      Neijing says:

      "In Heaven there are ethereal spirits; upon earth there is form and shape."

      "Heaven was created by an accumulation of Yang, the element of light; Earth was created by an accumulation of Yin, the element of darkness."

      "Yin and yang are the law of Heaven and Earth, the outline of everything, the parents of change, the origin of birth and destruction, and the house of shen ming( God or higher consciousness, the spirit, Tao), when curing sicknesses we should base our point of view on the roots (Yin and Yang)".

      "The principle of Yin and Yang is the basic principle of the entire universe. It is the principle of everything in creation."

      "If Yin and Yang change the people will change likewise and their destiny can then be prefigured. … In ancient times those people who understood Tao patterned themselves upon the Yin and the Yang and they lived in harmony with the arts of divination."

      "Obedience to the laws of Yin and Yang means life; disobedience means death."

      "In Heaven there are ethereal spirits; upon earth there is form and shape."

      "Heaven was created by an accumulation of Yang, the element of light; Earth was created by an accumulation of Yin, the element of darkness."

      From I Ching

      "In the heavens phenomena take form; on earth shapes take form."

      "Since in this way man comes to resemble heaven and earth, he is not in conflict with them. His wisdom embraces all things, and his Tao brings order into the whole world; therefore he does not err."

      Steiner defines the left side and upper part of man as Luciferic and right side and lower part as Ahrimanic, we see in A Holistic Look at an ancient Chinese Energy Modality that it corresponds to the definitions of Yin and Yang:

      According to the Daoists the left of the body is Yang and the right is Yin . Yang represents the male aspects of the human being. Males according to Traditional Chinese Medicine mostly have anger issues . That would mean the acupressure therapist should start on the left side of the male body. All emotional issues , like anger, fear, worry, sadness and joy are functional aspects that involve an output of energy and are therefore described as Yang. Yin represents the female aspects of the human being . Traditionally women have mostly Yin related issues that have to do with blood, lymph and all the fluids . These are structural issues. In this case, the therapist starts on the right side of the body . Also, the area above the navel is described as Yang, while the area below is described as Yin.

      Rudolf Steiner describes the two sides of man as being a kind of fight between Luciferic and Ahrimanic powers, where Lucifer is the masculine power (Yang) and Ahriman is the feminine power (Yin). Both described in the literature as Serpents or Dragons. Lucifer represents The Right Pillar, and Ahriman The Left Pillar of the Kabbalah Tree of Life. They are on Earth seen as Evil powers, but they are necessary factors in our development, as we both need the Feminine and Masculine influence, but we need to find the balance between them.
      From The Balance in the World and Man, Lucifer and Ahriman:

      The left part of you — your left man, as it were — is the fortification set up by Lucifer, and your right man is the fortification set up by AhrimanAnd the whole art of life consists in finding the true balance between them.

      References

      Doctrine of the Mean, Wikipedia.

      Golden Mean(philosophy), Wikipedia.

      Yin and Yang in medicine.

      dragon

      According to the
      Daoists the left of the body is Yang and the right is Yin . Yang represents the male
      aspects of the human being. Males according to Traditional Chinese Medicine mostly
      have anger issues . That would mean the acupressure therapist should start on the left side
      of the male body. All emotional issues , like anger, fear, worry, sadness and joy are
      functional aspects that involve an output of energy and are therefore described as Yang.
      Yin represents the female aspects of the human being . Traditionally women have mostly
      Yin related issues that have to do with blood, lymph and all the fluids . These are
      structural issues. In this case, the therapist starts on the right side of the body . Also, the
      area above the navel is described as Yang, while the area below is described as Yin.
      BTW: The physical representation of Ahriman is a black hole, where the Sun represents Lucifer, the light bringer.

      Kim

      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:
      >i
      > Dear Kim:
      >
      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" kimgm@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Stephen, you write:Actually, Kim, the laws of physics do not produce a
      > > static situation. According to all the laws of physics, no process is or
      > > can be 100& efficient; nonrecoverable energy is lost in every
      > > transaction; the Second Law of thermodynamics describes this as the
      > > principle of entropy and predict an inevitable running-down and
      > > degeneration of the universe into a "heat-death." This _is_ the
      > > Ahrimanic view of things. In it, there is no integral place for life,
      > > consciousness, or love: all that is only a temporary aberrant
      > > statistical fluctuation. In short, the situation is not static, it is
      > > degenerative. But whether static or not, the result is death. Any
      > > scientist who knows and understands his own science will tell you that
      > > this is the "realistic" doctrine of physics.
      >
      >
      >
      > Kim: But that may be right in
      > > the long run, but it depends on the energy flow into this universe, and
      > > there is under all circumstances enough energy for the time we are here
      > > on Earth.
      >
      >
      > SRC: Yes but there is no provision in physics for energy flow into the universe, which is postulated to be a closed system. And yes again, local systems may experience net entropy decreases but only at the expense of greater entropy _increases_ in the larger enclosing system, so the net is still an overall entropy increase. And yes, we won't run out here anytime soon!
      >
      >
      >
      > > Any scientist who know the Second Law of thermodynamics will tell you
      > > that there are local systems where entropy decreases, and Earth was such
      > > a place until man began using the resources of the Earth.
      >
      >
      > SRC: I don't think so. According to any and all physical theory, the solar system as a whole from gas ball to precipitating planets up to now has been loosing energy all the time; that's how things happen in material energy systems. Of course, according to spiritual science, the activity of the spiritual beings involved has caused the massive build-up of cooperative complex organisms on earth - very anti-entropic - and now, even according to Stiener, that is now running down. Unless you consider the larger living physical-spiritual system which includes unseen dimensions, in which case the overall level of organization is increasing, local variations excepted.
      >
      >
      >
      > > And this local equilibrium functions because the Sun (Luciferic powers,
      > > chaos=atoms in high energy) sends energy down to Earth. If the Sun
      > > stopped sending energy down to Earth, the Earth would become frozen
      > > (Ahrimanic, order=atoms without energy). I know my usage of order and
      > > chaos is a little different than in thermodynamics, but that is only
      > > terminology, the content is valid and I use this terminology to make it
      > > easier to see the relation to Lucifer/Yang and Ahriman/Yin.
      >
      >
      > SRC: I take your point about terminology, although it is difficult when someone tries to reinvent language to suit a private perspective. To completely invert meaning is not quite fair.
      >
      > Still, according to physics, the there is no local equilibrium. If there was, nothing would happen; work/action depends on non-equilibrium tending to equilibrium and a resultant debit of non-recoverable energy. This is not equilibrium.
      >
      > And, just to round this out, I would have: Lucifer: Yin, Ahriman: Yang. Yin is expansive, which is idealism and the Big Picture, while Ahriman is utility precision and tight focus, which is very yang.
      > How do you see it? I don't see how you do, but.....
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Stephen
      >
    • Kim
      Dear Stephen, The Big Bang was a rather big increase of energy in this universe, and there is a lot of things we don t know, fex. dark matter and dark energy.
      Message 137 of 137 , May 13, 2011
        Dear Stephen,

        The Big Bang was a rather big increase of energy in this universe, and there is a lot of things we don't know, fex. dark matter and dark energy. 

        I talked about the Earth as a local system and nobody can say that the Earth is not a local system with decreasing entropy, there couldn't be life on the Earth without local decrease in entropy, there couldn't be oil in the underground without local decrease in the local entropy, and so forth. When man uses oil we increase entropy. Of course, the total entropy of the sun-system decreases, but that is necessary for maintaining our local equilibrium.

        The physical laws and everything that happens on the Earth is sub and super spiritual emanations onto the physical plane, and everything follows and can be explained through these rules as long as we talk about physical incidences, when we talk about peoples spiritual experiences we go outside the physical laws. From the spiritual world they can influence the physical in ways which is seen as unlikely but not impossible, like it's said about the Holy Spirit's activity. It's costly, though, the bigger the impact the more energy the spiritual world need to use. Following Steiner are everything we see in the physical world the mind of elemental beings with their physical manifestations in the etheric and astral worlds, especially the Ahrimanic in the astral world, in the Karmic world, and changes here manifest in the physical, both positive as negative changes.

        To equilibrium: Following Steiner is the physical world the equilibrium between Ahriman and Lucifer, between Yin and Yang, between the sub and super physical, the chtlonic and spiritual world, and it's in this context I use equilibrium. Thermodynamics use the word equilibrium where entropy is greatest, and that I think is counterintuitive.

        Concerning Yin and Yang, I will show you the relation between Ahriman and Yin on many planes, starting with the creation myth, where Yin is the Earth and Yang is the heaven (Tao – The Equilibrium of Yin and Yang), and later show the relation in man (Serpents of the Kundalini Fire):

        All creation starts with the unity splits in two and later unifies again. From The Gold Egg Model:

        According to Chinese myth, before the world began there was chaos shaped like a hen's egg. The huge Pan Gu separated this egg into Yin and Yang. Yin formed the earth, Yang formed the sky. Yin stood for all the female, wet, dark things of nature, while Yang stood for all the male, dry and bright things. There could be no perfect happiness till there was a balance between Yin and Yang.

        Wuji is the uncreated, the primordial, limitless void, the possibility for the created and Taiji is the created, Yang and Yin, heaven and earth.
        Creation of the universe
        Creation

        Yang is generally associated with what are bright, warm, and in motion. Yin is generally associated with what are dark, still and cold.

        Neijing says:

        "In Heaven there are ethereal spirits; upon earth there is form and shape."

        "Heaven was created by an accumulation of Yang, the element of light; Earth was created by an accumulation of Yin, the element of darkness."

        "Yin and yang are the law of Heaven and Earth, the outline of everything, the parents of change, the origin of birth and destruction, and the house of shen ming( God or higher consciousness, the spirit, Tao), when curing sicknesses we should base our point of view on the roots (Yin and Yang)".

        "The principle of Yin and Yang is the basic principle of the entire universe. It is the principle of everything in creation."

        "If Yin and Yang change the people will change likewise and their destiny can then be prefigured. … In ancient times those people who understood Tao patterned themselves upon the Yin and the Yang and they lived in harmony with the arts of divination."

        "Obedience to the laws of Yin and Yang means life; disobedience means death."

        "In Heaven there are ethereal spirits; upon earth there is form and shape."

        "Heaven was created by an accumulation of Yang, the element of light; Earth was created by an accumulation of Yin, the element of darkness."

        From I Ching

        "In the heavens phenomena take form; on earth shapes take form."

        "Since in this way man comes to resemble heaven and earth, he is not in conflict with them. His wisdom embraces all things, and his Tao brings order into the whole world; therefore he does not err."

        Steiner defines the left side and upper part of man as Luciferic and right side and lower part as Ahrimanic, we see in A Holistic Look at an ancient Chinese Energy Modality that it corresponds to the definitions of Yin and Yang:

        According to the Daoists the left of the body is Yang and the right is Yin . Yang represents the male aspects of the human being. Males according to Traditional Chinese Medicine mostly have anger issues . That would mean the acupressure therapist should start on the left side of the male body. All emotional issues , like anger, fear, worry, sadness and joy are functional aspects that involve an output of energy and are therefore described as Yang. Yin represents the female aspects of the human being . Traditionally women have mostly Yin related issues that have to do with blood, lymph and all the fluids . These are structural issues. In this case, the therapist starts on the right side of the body . Also, the area above the navel is described as Yang, while the area below is described as Yin.

        Rudolf Steiner describes the two sides of man as being a kind of fight between Luciferic and Ahrimanic powers, where Lucifer is the masculine power (Yang) and Ahriman is the feminine power (Yin). Both described in the literature as Serpents or Dragons. Lucifer represents The Right Pillar, and Ahriman The Left Pillar of the Kabbalah Tree of Life. They are on Earth seen as Evil powers, but they are necessary factors in our development, as we both need the Feminine and Masculine influence, but we need to find the balance between them.
        From The Balance in the World and Man, Lucifer and Ahriman:

        The left part of you — your left man, as it were — is the fortification set up by Lucifer, and your right man is the fortification set up by AhrimanAnd the whole art of life consists in finding the true balance between them.

        References

        Doctrine of the Mean, Wikipedia.

        Golden Mean(philosophy), Wikipedia.

        Yin and Yang in medicine.

        dragon

        According to the
        Daoists the left of the body is Yang and the right is Yin . Yang represents the male
        aspects of the human being. Males according to Traditional Chinese Medicine mostly
        have anger issues . That would mean the acupressure therapist should start on the left side
        of the male body. All emotional issues , like anger, fear, worry, sadness and joy are
        functional aspects that involve an output of energy and are therefore described as Yang.
        Yin represents the female aspects of the human being . Traditionally women have mostly
        Yin related issues that have to do with blood, lymph and all the fluids . These are
        structural issues. In this case, the therapist starts on the right side of the body . Also, the
        area above the navel is described as Yang, while the area below is described as Yin.
        BTW: The physical representation of Ahriman is a black hole, where the Sun represents Lucifer, the light bringer.

        Kim

        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "bikhe hozho" <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:
        >i
        > Dear Kim:
        >
        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" kimgm@ wrote:
        > >
        > > Stephen, you write:Actually, Kim, the laws of physics do not produce a
        > > static situation. According to all the laws of physics, no process is or
        > > can be 100& efficient; nonrecoverable energy is lost in every
        > > transaction; the Second Law of thermodynamics describes this as the
        > > principle of entropy and predict an inevitable running-down and
        > > degeneration of the universe into a "heat-death." This _is_ the
        > > Ahrimanic view of things. In it, there is no integral place for life,
        > > consciousness, or love: all that is only a temporary aberrant
        > > statistical fluctuation. In short, the situation is not static, it is
        > > degenerative. But whether static or not, the result is death. Any
        > > scientist who knows and understands his own science will tell you that
        > > this is the "realistic" doctrine of physics.
        >
        >
        >
        > Kim: But that may be right in
        > > the long run, but it depends on the energy flow into this universe, and
        > > there is under all circumstances enough energy for the time we are here
        > > on Earth.
        >
        >
        > SRC: Yes but there is no provision in physics for energy flow into the universe, which is postulated to be a closed system. And yes again, local systems may experience net entropy decreases but only at the expense of greater entropy _increases_ in the larger enclosing system, so the net is still an overall entropy increase. And yes, we won't run out here anytime soon!
        >
        >
        >
        > > Any scientist who know the Second Law of thermodynamics will tell you
        > > that there are local systems where entropy decreases, and Earth was such
        > > a place until man began using the resources of the Earth.
        >
        >
        > SRC: I don't think so. According to any and all physical theory, the solar system as a whole from gas ball to precipitating planets up to now has been loosing energy all the time; that's how things happen in material energy systems. Of course, according to spiritual science, the activity of the spiritual beings involved has caused the massive build-up of cooperative complex organisms on earth - very anti-entropic - and now, even according to Stiener, that is now running down. Unless you consider the larger living physical-spiritual system which includes unseen dimensions, in which case the overall level of organization is increasing, local variations excepted.
        >
        >
        >
        > > And this local equilibrium functions because the Sun (Luciferic powers,
        > > chaos=atoms in high energy) sends energy down to Earth. If the Sun
        > > stopped sending energy down to Earth, the Earth would become frozen
        > > (Ahrimanic, order=atoms without energy). I know my usage of order and
        > > chaos is a little different than in thermodynamics, but that is only
        > > terminology, the content is valid and I use this terminology to make it
        > > easier to see the relation to Lucifer/Yang and Ahriman/Yin.
        >
        >
        > SRC: I take your point about terminology, although it is difficult when someone tries to reinvent language to suit a private perspective. To completely invert meaning is not quite fair.
        >
        > Still, according to physics, the there is no local equilibrium. If there was, nothing would happen; work/action depends on non-equilibrium tending to equilibrium and a resultant debit of non-recoverable energy. This is not equilibrium.
        >
        > And, just to round this out, I would have: Lucifer: Yin, Ahriman: Yang. Yin is expansive, which is idealism and the Big Picture, while Ahriman is utility precision and tight focus, which is very yang.
        > How do you see it? I don't see how you do, but.....
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Stephen
        >
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