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Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] John Paul's miracles

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  • dottie zold
    I don t think he should have to have a miracle to be called a Saint. I think its pretty obvious that this is a special man and one whose heart forces strive
    Message 1 of 10 , May 1, 2011
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      I don't think he should have to have a miracle to be called a Saint. I think its pretty obvious that this is a special man and one whose heart forces strive higher and deeper in his contemplative work on the world, man, and Christ. So is my experience .
       
      He appeared in my dream about four months ago and he was looking for someone, I can't recall now who. But in the end they were reunited and till this day I do feel that it was to show that somehow we are connected in our biographies towards our love and tasks on behalf of Christ.
       
      I am glad they shall call him Blessed as an example of a deeply contemplative man even if he was not perfect according to whatever standards people have. It is true that he came at a time when he made space for us to have reconcilliation with the Jews and the Muslims. No Pope before him nor any human being was able to reconcile that as beautifully as he did beings especially that he wore the Catholic robe.
       
      All good things,
      Dottie

      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Sun, 5/1/11, Frank Thomas Smith <fts.trasla@...> wrote:

      From: Frank Thomas Smith <fts.trasla@...>
      Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] John Paul's miracles
      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, May 1, 2011, 12:01 PM

       
      I just read that John Paul needs another miracle to reach sainthood. I have no doubt whatever that they will find one; too much has already been invested. I quote below Rudolf Steiner in one of his lectures about Catholicism.

      "The more natural science takes its stand on mere causality, the more the life of human feeling is driven, by a quite natural reaction, to accept the concept of miracle. The more natural science continues along its present lines, the more numerous will be those who seek refuge in a religion which includes miracles. That is why today so many people embrace Catholicism, because they simply cannot bear the natural-scientific worldview."

      Frank

    • dottie zold
      Well, interestingly enough I think its a boon towards Rudolf Steiner s work that a man so blessed as John Paul is noted as being able to work from beyond the
      Message 2 of 10 , May 1, 2011
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        Well, interestingly enough I think its a boon towards Rudolf Steiner's work that a man so blessed as John Paul is noted as being able to work from beyond the earthly life:)))) it is an opportunity to actually consciously take this conversation further along the lines of spiritual science beings it is so out in the world right now but no clarity to express what they are really trying to say regarding the connection between the living and the dead.
         
        All good things,
        Dottie

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Sun, 5/1/11, elfuncle <elfuncle@...> wrote:

        From: elfuncle <elfuncle@...>
        Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: John Paul's miracles
        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, May 1, 2011, 3:47 PM

         
        The only function of saints is to replace the names of old pagan gods, for the same reasons. So instead of one god for safe travel, another one to find lost items, a third one to ensure a good harvest and so on, you get Roman Catholic saints in the same roles. And just like old paganism has served its historical purpose, so has Catholicism, which is nothing but superstition as evidenced by the RS quote brought by Frank.

        Tarjei


        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Charlotte Cowell <charlottecowell@...> wrote:
        >
        > Yes, that's right, the first step (after one miracle) is beatification,
        > then the sainthood can follow on from another miracle, if and when it
        > arrives - that could be years later and from what I understand usually
        > is.
        >
        >
        >
        > One of the reasons John Paul II is a 'candidate', for want of a better
        > term, is his relationship with God and his effectiveness at sharing -
        > 'channelling' - this with the congregation. One of the functions of a
        > saint is to intercede and I think there can be simply no doubt that
        > John Paul II, both during his life and afterwards, offers other people
        > a 'link' He is one of those who shine a light to help others make there
        > way also, a true hermetic calling - nobody is pretending he is/was
        > perfect. As far as I"m aware, the only 'perfect' human beings were the
        > like of Jesus Christ, Buddha, Zoroaster and so forth....according to
        > their time/place.
        >
        >
        >
        > I know the point you're making about catholicism and science but this
        > isn't true of everyone - the Christian hermeticist 'sees' these things,
        > but you should remember that we haven't yet reached the point where
        > 'science' has caught up with 'magic' - close, yes, but not quite there.
        > The cosmic clock is turning on the new age but the final bell hasn't
        > been rung, so to speak. Again, at risk of being an absolute nuisance,
        > I'll say something from Meditations on the Tarot, as it's catholic
        > author was incredibly aware of where we are at in time.
        >
        >
        >
        > The pertinent 'letter', is the 22nd (the final one) symbolised by The
        > World, where we are reminded that only 'profound meditation' can bring
        > us the certainty we need to 'find and employ the key to the mystery of
        > the world....an understanding of the world as a work of art.'
        >
        >
        >
        > The metaphysics of magic (from a Platonic point of view) are then
        > described, along with an explanation of the 'seal' of Plotinus and an
        > extract fromJosephan Peladan's commentary on the relationship between
        > artist and magician:
        >
        >
        >
        > "With respect to geniuses, they are intuitive people who bring
        > expression to supernatural laws with images; they attract an influx
        > from beyond and are in direct relationship with the occult. Neither
        > Dante nor Shakespeare, nor Goethe carried out evocations, and all three
        > understood the occult; they were wisely content to create eternal
        > images; and in this they were incomparable mages. To create in the
        > abstract, to create in the souls of men, vivifying reflections of the
        > mystery - this is the great work.
        >
        >
        >
        > It is also a necessary reminder that this magical spiritual endeavour
        > we're involved with is at least as much an art as it is a science -
        > David alluded to this quite recently. While 'magic' can catch up with
        > science one way or another, art always has the upper hand via it's
        > ability to move the human soul/spirit/heart/body - through dance for
        > instance.
        >
        >
        >
        > I think you need to see the distinction between esoteric and exoteric
        > catholicism, in much the same way as the Rosicrucian way is
        > distinguished from the exoteric Protestant church, Sufism from Islam,
        > Orthodox Judaism from Kabbalah etc....people often love to hate the
        > church but to throw the baby out with the bathwater is to cut off your
        > nose to spite your face.
        >
        >
        > Cx
        >
        > --- On Sun, 1/5/11, Frank Thomas Smith fts.trasla@... wrote:
        >
        > From: Frank Thomas Smith fts.trasla@...
        > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] John Paul's miracles
        > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Sunday, 1 May, 2011, 20:01
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I just read that John Paul needs another miracle to reach sainthood. I have no doubt whatever that they will find one; too much has already been invested. I quote below Rudolf Steiner in one of his lectures about Catholicism.
        >
        >
        >
        > "The more natural science takes its stand on mere causality, the more the life of human feeling is driven, by a quite natural reaction, to accept the concept of miracle. The more natural science continues along its present lines, the more numerous will be those who seek refuge in a religion which includes miracles. That is why today so many people embrace Catholicism, because they simply cannot bear the natural-scientific worldview."
        >
        >
        >
        > Frank
        >

      • Charlie
        Total digression of topic here, but I can t be the only one who fell off their chair at the news - the timing is immaculate , I am astounded - and after that
        Message 3 of 10 , May 2, 2011
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          Total digression of topic here, but I can't be the only one who fell off their chair at the news - the timing is 'immaculate', I am astounded - and after that fantastic speech to the press corp. Don't get me wrong, I am relieved if a hard core terrorist is dead, but what is really going on here guys, remind me why we went to war in Iraq and why the entire BL family got safe immediate passage out of the US? But at least troops can be pulled out of Afghanistan now....expensive war.

          Then I think. A million dollar mansion 60 km from Islamabad - is that 'lying low', how could he be so hard to find. The picture is a fake, why nothing more concrete??

          I'm not anti the US president by the way, I think he's got a great sense of humour, is very handsome and a superb speaker, if he walked in the room I'd probably want to sleep with him. But this news is nuts!!!

          And Indonesia is sinking!

          Time to smoke the peace pipe big time
        • elfuncle
          ... Here we disagree, Dottie. I think a saint should have a huge collection of miracles under his belt, or be able to repeat his favorite miracle at the snap
          Message 4 of 10 , May 2, 2011
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            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
            >
            > I don't think he should have to have a miracle to be called a Saint.


            Here we disagree, Dottie. I think a saint should have a huge collection of miracles under his belt, or be able to repeat his favorite miracle at the snap of anybody's fingers. Come to think of it, Peter Staudenmaier would be an excellent saint. He's a Jesuit, you know, and he is a word magician who can pull Nazis out of his hat on stage, and out of any Steiner-text. So PS is very good with his sleight-of-hand miracles and should be canonized.

            Tarjei
          • dottie zold
            Well, actually come to think of it, we are all called Saints in the Bible and that s without miracles. I believe it is Saint Paul who salutes the saint s as in
            Message 5 of 10 , May 2, 2011
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              Well, actually come to think of it, we are all called Saints in the Bible and that's without miracles. I believe it is Saint Paul who salutes the saint's as in all who endeavor to keep the tasks of Christ before mankind. I will see if I can find that passage. And of course that is without miracles:) well, maybe the miracles is just living and overcoming the material world in our thinking and so forth.
               
              All good things,
              Dottie

              "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



              --- On Mon, 5/2/11, elfuncle <elfuncle@...> wrote:

              From: elfuncle <elfuncle@...>
              Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: John Paul's miracles
              To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, May 2, 2011, 5:31 AM

               

              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
              >
              > I don't think he should have to have a miracle to be called a Saint.


              Here we disagree, Dottie. I think a saint should have a huge collection of miracles under his belt, or be able to repeat his favorite miracle at the snap of anybody's fingers. Come to think of it, Peter Staudenmaier would be an excellent saint. He's a Jesuit, you know, and he is a word magician who can pull Nazis out of his hat on stage, and out of any Steiner-text. So PS is very good with his sleight-of-hand miracles and should be canonized.

              Tarjei
            • dottie zold
              Hmmm, this is interesting and I ve never heard of him and I m not sure so many other have as well......   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarp   Here is
              Message 6 of 10 , May 2, 2011
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                Hmmm, this is interesting and I've never heard of him and I'm not sure so many other have as well......
                 
                 
                Here is what is considered a gospel, more like a letter, but I am immediately struck by the 'multiply' aspect pertaining to Jesus Christ. Or maybe its just its what Rudolf Steiner shares in regards to 'imitations' or imprints of the Christ and then also of Christian Rosenkreutz's sheaths......
                 
                 
                But who is this man, this student of Lazarus John that lived to be about as old as he and why is he coming forth now to say hello:)))
                 
                All good things,
                Dottie

                "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                --- On Mon, 5/2/11, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

                From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: John Paul's miracles
                To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, May 2, 2011, 7:32 AM

                 
                Well, actually come to think of it, we are all called Saints in the Bible and that's without miracles. I believe it is Saint Paul who salutes the saint's as in all who endeavor to keep the tasks of Christ before mankind. I will see if I can find that passage. And of course that is without miracles:) well, maybe the miracles is just living and overcoming the material world in our thinking and so forth.
                 
                All good things,
                Dottie

                "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                --- On Mon, 5/2/11, elfuncle <elfuncle@...> wrote:

                From: elfuncle <elfuncle@...>
                Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: John Paul's miracles
                To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, May 2, 2011, 5:31 AM

                 

                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                >
                > I don't think he should have to have a miracle to be called a Saint.


                Here we disagree, Dottie. I think a saint should have a huge collection of miracles under his belt, or be able to repeat his favorite miracle at the snap of anybody's fingers. Come to think of it, Peter Staudenmaier would be an excellent saint. He's a Jesuit, you know, and he is a word magician who can pull Nazis out of his hat on stage, and out of any Steiner-text. So PS is very good with his sleight-of-hand miracles and should be canonized.

                Tarjei
              • Charlie
                Or maybe I m being a cynic now, maybe it was JPII s second miracle, as the timing would suggest... Can any Americans on board explain all this to me, is it par
                Message 7 of 10 , May 2, 2011
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                  Or maybe I"m being a cynic now, maybe it was JPII's second miracle, as the timing would suggest...

                  Can any Americans on board explain all this to me, is it par for the course in an election campaign, is it just a sublime coincidence or is it what might be called a 'Turkish Bath' in our local London green language?


                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie" <charlottecowell@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Total digression of topic here, but I can't be the only one who fell off their chair at the news - the timing is 'immaculate', I am astounded - and after that fantastic speech to the press corp. Don't get me wrong, I am relieved if a hard core terrorist is dead, but what is really going on here guys, remind me why we went to war in Iraq and why the entire BL family got safe immediate passage out of the US? But at least troops can be pulled out of Afghanistan now....expensive war.
                  >
                  > Then I think. A million dollar mansion 60 km from Islamabad - is that 'lying low', how could he be so hard to find. The picture is a fake, why nothing more concrete??
                  >
                  > I'm not anti the US president by the way, I think he's got a great sense of humour, is very handsome and a superb speaker, if he walked in the room I'd probably want to sleep with him. But this news is nuts!!!
                  >
                  > And Indonesia is sinking!
                  >
                  > Time to smoke the peace pipe big time
                  >
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