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R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: reading and falsehoods

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  • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
    ... Is it so difficult to understand that this RS s picture is only the other side of the coin of the topic that today we call immunology desease
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 23, 2004
      > No, but Steiner had something better, right? Clairvoyance?
      >
      >
      > >Steiner's thought is no more racist than the article by Charles Mann
      > >or the research of Henry Dobyns.
      >
      >
      > Daniel, get a clue. To say they died out because they didn't have
      > immunity to diseases the Europeans brought is not racist (and if one
      > reads that entire article, this thesis is a bit more complex than the
      > passage cited would show). To say that *spiritually* they had
      > to "acquire forces"


      Is it so difficult to understand that this RS's picture is only the other
      side of the coin of the topic that today we call "immunology desease "
      precisely concerning the links between the "I" and the physical body ?
      (It'd be enough to pick up some "Anthro-medicine" book., maybe V.Bott's
      ones to realize it)
      But the "critics" got no time to study with open mind and HEART any
      Anthro-issue......





      or through outright genocide,

      Oh yes we all know that Steiner was a genocides' supporter !!!


      A.
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      > Yahoo! Groups Links
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    • winters_diana
      ... Steiner was a master at phrasing things in mysterious vague generalities that could be interpreted by his followers, of his own time or ages to come, in
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 23, 2004
        > Daniel, I see you decline to speculate on why, if Steiner was
        > clairvoyant, he couldn't have already known all about immunology. Oh
        > well.

        Andrea:
        >If you or somebody else had an idea about Anthoposophical medicine,
        >especially about its development, you should also been aware how RS
        >gave basic indication how to treat diseases from the stanndpoint of
        >the investigations on the links of the different "boides" of Human
        >Being.


        Steiner was a master at phrasing things in mysterious vague
        generalities that could be interpreted by his followers, of his own
        time or ages to come, in virtually any way the listener liked. It's
        hard to imagine a scientific or historical development that Steiner's
        followers today *wouldn't* believed is hinted at in vague phrases
        like "they had to acquire forces." This is not, in fact,
        intellectually inconsistent, since karma means that whatever happens
        was meant to happen. The beauty of is that anything that *did* happen
        you are free to declare was obviously what Steiner thought was going
        to happen. (And anything he missed, you can always just say the time
        was not right then for him to speak about such things.)

        Diana
      • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
        ... From: winters_diana
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 23, 2004
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: winters_diana <diana
          Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: reading and falsehoods


          Daniel, I see you decline to speculate on why, if Steiner was
          clairvoyant, he couldn't have already known all about immunology. Oh
          well.


          Oh well??? Oh bad (for ya)
          (Apologize to Daniel for jumpin' in)
          If you or somebody else had an idea about Anthoposophical medicine,
          especially about its development, you should also been aware how RS gave
          basic indication how to treat diseases from the stanndpoint of the
          investigations on the links of the different "boides" of Human Being.
          Inside these standpoints many physicians found several insights in order
          to heals also the so-called "immunological"diseases.
          For instance there are studies that gave good results about the capacity
          of "Viscum Album" to enforce the "immunitary" defenses.
          But, I'm sure, all the nominalism-obsessed wished to find out the "word"
          immunology 40 years before its specific use...........,.
          Well if someone wants the example of some "performances" of "Steiner as a
          prophet" he has only to get a a look, for instance, at the
          Gospels-Essenes.Qumran-Nag Hammadi matter..........
          Oh Didimos how many followers you have had till today!!

          A.


          I said:
          >To say they died out because they didn't have immunity to diseases
          >the Europeans brought is not racist

          Daniel:
          >Indeed. Saying that they died out because their bodies did not
          >contain the ability to fight off diseases is not racist.

          Diana:
          >Okay, thanks for repeating what I just said.

          Daniel now says:
          >Glad you got it this time. That is exactly what Steiner said, too.
          >Clear now?

          I truly must be missing something, Daniel. He said nothing at all
          about their dying of disease! I understand you think that's what he
          *meant* but surely it is obvious even to you that to claim
          it's "exactly what Steiner said too" is preposterous.



          Daniel:
          >Clarity, Diana, seems not to be your forte. Steiner did not "fortell"
          >anything.

          Not clear, I agree. I meant "foretell" that it would someday be
          theorized that it was disease that caused their deaths in great
          numbers.


          >He described a past event, and offered an explanation. The
          >explanation he offered is exactly the same as the one Dobyns puts
          >forth, only worded slightly differently. You seem to be deliberately
          >misunderstaning every aspect of this.

          You can't be serious. You go on and on about historical acccuracy,
          use of sources, etc., and you seriously want me to agree that he is
          saying the same thing only worded slightly differently. Wow. Steiner
          *never said nothin'* about the native Americans and disease, Daniel.


          Daniel:
          >Since when is the point to exonerate the Europeans?

          Because the sentence says they didn't die because of the Europeans,
          they died because they had to "acquire forces." It was not the
          Europeans' fault therefore. Not really, if you have spiritual vision,
          you realize that even if the Europeans were fairly brutal to the
          people they encountered on this continent, actually these events had
          a deeper meaning and purpose and the usual suspects, the Europeans,
          therefore aren't *truly* to blame if one sees beyond superficial
          events to spiritual causes blah blah. If you have spiritual sight you
          will see. If you accept "materialistic" explanations you will blame
          the Europeans.


          >This is nowhere in Steiner or in Dobyns.


          I'm sorry if you don't see it right there in that sentence, Daniel.
          The point of the sentence is that it was not the Europeans' fault!

          >Both are simply describing the causes of a past event.

          No. The syntax of the sentence suggests not description of an event,
          but a refutation of a prevailing theory about the cause of an event,
          a theory which, apparently, the audience is presumed to hold, in
          favor of a new theory which the speaker will now put forth.
          Prevailing theory: Europeans did it, or were at least pleased by it.
          New theory: a spiritual one, acquiring of "forces," presumably
          meaning spiritual forces, if one has, in fact, read much Steiner.

          >Really, Diana, I don't know where you come up with this stuff! If
          >you want to pontificate on Steiner's views, it would help to read
          >them first.


          Oh, really, really, Daniel. Don't be such a jerk.

          I said:

          >The Europeans didn't do this to them, Steiner says.

          Daniel:
          >This is also not what Steiner said.

          Okay, not quite, he says it didn't happen because it pleased the
          Europeans. That's your translation. I don't know how else to read
          that except to exonerate the Europeans. If something happened
          *because it pleased them* would it not mean they had arranged for it
          to happen? That it served their ends? This is what he is refuting. If
          it did *not* happen in order to please them does it not mean they are
          not responsible? Who thought they *were* responsible? Obviously,
          Steiner is expecting at least some in the audience to hold the
          opinion that the Europeans did this, and he is setting them straight,
          that that is not why it happened.
          Do you have some other interpretation for the statement that they did
          not die out because it pleased the Europeans? Please tell.

          >I gave you the exact quote. It is delicatly phrased, and very
          >precice. The Europeans did a lot to destroy the Native Americans,
          >and Steiner spoke out strongly against this (in other books).


          Yes, very nice, but he takes it all apart with one blow, with
          statements like this. This negates that anything they did, no matter
          how brutal, actually caused any problem. Spiritual causes on some
          other plane are the explanation, you may think genocide is a terrible
          thing, I'm sure Steiner agreed genocide is a terrible thing, but in
          fact, these things happen for a reason, this is a spiritual
          explanation. Spiritual causes are the ultimate explanation and trump
          historical observations. Yes?

          Excuse me, Daniel, but this is the kernel of the entire worldview,
          practically, and I am not the slightest confused on this point. I
          know that anthroposophists do not *like* to see this spelled out when
          it applies to messy little points like genocide, it is considered
          tacky, it is better to be discreet etc. Please refrain from any more
          of your condescending crap about how I should read before
          pontificating etc.


          >He is saying that regardless of the Europeans intentions (which
          >were, to a large degree bent on eliminating the Native Americans)
          >the Natice Americans possessed a weakness in their physical bodies
          >that would lead to their dying out either way. Whose fault is it?
          >Steiner never assigned blame.


          Oh, very open minded of Steiner.
          And is a physical weakness not also a spiritual weakness?
          (If you're confused on this point, see my lengthy discussions with
          Tarjei about why it was necessary for Jesus to have a healthy body.
          An unhealthy body would indicate spiritual weakness. Tarjei found any
          claim to the contrary very distressing. Again, understandably, since
          this claim is fundamental in anthroposophy.)
          In other words, the point is to blame the native Americans
          themselves, and let those who committed atrocities against them off
          the hook. Nobody can commit atrocities against you and get away with
          it if your gig isn't up, karmically.
          Y'all are always on and on about how critics miss the context. Y'all
          are missing "context" so big it fills the room. The context of
          announcing that native Americans died becuase they needed to acquire
          spiritual forces is that it lets the Europeans off the hook for
          genocide. And the context of claims about people dying to acquire
          needed spiritual forces is karma. Yet you want to needle me that this
          isn't about karma. Of course it's about karma.


          >Since you know Steiner so well, you know that in Steiner's veiw, not
          >everything that befalls you is deserved - the result of past karma.
          >Many things are undeserved, and will be repaid in the future. There
          >is no reason in Anthroposophy why a Native American who died from an
          >epidemic "deserved" it or "earned" it.


          Whoa. Talk about dragging in stuff that is not there.
          Did I say that? Did I say they deserved or earned it, or even that
          Steiner said so? Wow.
          This looks like your way out of the karma thing, which you know darn
          well is crucial to what Steiner is saying here, and is exactly the
          point of "acquiring forces" - for future lives, future tasks or
          missions or something. Actually, it is you who has forgotten what
          karma means in Steiner. It does include things that befall you that
          will be repaid later. That is not something separate from karma.


          >It could just as well have been accidental, in which case karmic
          >recompense is due in a future life.

          Now there's a breathtakingly confused statement, from someone
          advising me that I don't have my Steiner straight.
          Accidents *are* karma. You don't get repaid later for an "accident"
          outside of karmic accounting. It's *all* karma.

          Anyone want to back me up here? I'm suspecting sadly once again
          virtually every anthroposophist reading this knows I've got it right
          but isn't going to say so.

          Now surely you don't want me to take from this that the genocide of
          the native Americans was "accidental."

          Diana






          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
          ... Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: reading and falsehoods ... Pls can I ask you what is your knowledge about the Anthroposophical Medicine ? BTW I
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 23, 2004
            : Friday, April 23, 2004 2:29 PM
            Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: reading and falsehoods


            > > Daniel, I see you decline to speculate on why, if Steiner was
            > > clairvoyant, he couldn't have already known all about immunology. Oh
            > > well.
            >
            > Andrea:
            > >If you or somebody else had an idea about Anthoposophical medicine,
            > >especially about its development, you should also been aware how RS
            > >gave basic indication how to treat diseases from the stanndpoint of
            > >the investigations on the links of the different "boides" of Human
            > >Being.
            >
            >
            > Steiner was a master at phrasing things in mysterious vague
            > generalities that could be interpreted by his followers, of his own
            > time or ages to come, in virtually any way the listener liked. It's
            > hard to imagine a scientific or historical development that Steiner's
            > followers today *wouldn't* believed is hinted at in vague phrases
            > like "they had to acquire forces."

            Pls can I ask you what is your knowledge about the Anthroposophical Medicine
            ?
            BTW I live in a country that, on a specific Anthop.standpoint got a strange
            feature. About 150 0f the "official members" of GAS in Italy (1850
            individuals) are physicians.
            If you need some help I can give you some good address.


            This is not, in fact,
            > intellectually inconsistent, since karma means that whatever happens
            > was meant to happen.

            If this is YOUR idea of Karma, I can only complain you, madame.


            The beauty of is that anything that *did* happen
            > you are free to declare was obviously what Steiner thought was going
            > to happen. (And anything he missed, you can always just say the time
            > was not right then for him to speak about such things.)
            >
            This is only dialectical bullshit,madame.

            Again. Why an individual who is unable to grasp anything about a matter goes
            on and on and on and on and on to dicsuss about it???


            >A.
            >
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            > Yahoo! Groups Links
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          • winters_diana
            ... I m afraid I will have to decline an invitation to discuss anthroposophical medicine. Life is short. Perhaps I will be told I ve run away from an
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 23, 2004
              Andrea:

              >Pls can I ask you what is your knowledge about the Anthroposophical
              >Medicine ?

              I'm afraid I will have to decline an invitation to discuss
              anthroposophical medicine. Life is short. Perhaps I will be told
              I've "run away" from an argument, on the other hand you've already
              announced I know nothing about it, so I suggest we drop it there.
              I'll just note that the lecture we were discussing makes no mention
              of any topic pertaining to anthroposophical medicine, it was Daniel's
              clever idea that that's what it was really about. In fact, Daniel has
              now convinced himself that that's "exactly what Steiner said"
              (immunological explanation for native Americans dying out) and seems
              genuinely amazed that I don't see anything about immunologic
              weaknesses mentioned.

              >This is not, in fact, intellectually inconsistent, since karma means
              >that whatever happens was meant to happen.

              >If this is YOUR idea of Karma, I can only complain you, madame.

              Whatever you say, Andrea. No, it is not *my* idea of karma.

              >This is only dialectical bullshit,madame.

              I agree it's bullshit, though it is not *my* bullshit. I've been
              trying to figure out the idiosyncratic meaning that the
              term "dialectical" has taken on on this list. Somebody apparently
              remembers Marx used the term, and it's paired with "materialism," so
              it must be bad, and Peter's some kind of communist/Marxist something
              or other, we're not sure what only we know it's scary, so we can
              always say he's doing something dialectical. So probably other
              critics are dialectical/diabolical too. Or perhaps you think it means
              replying point by point. (That would be "dialogue.") Any reply that
              is specific to the point that was actually made is dismissed
              as "dialectical." Replies that include poetry, song lyrics, or
              general rude statements about critics of anthroposophy are considered
              automatically to show a greater spiritual understanding, so it
              doesn't matter if they address the point that was made, in fact it is
              preferable if they don't.

              >Again. Why an individual who is unable to grasp anything about a
              >matter goes on and on and on and on and on to dicsuss about it???

              I don't know. Why *do* you go on and on about it?
              Sorry. Couldn't resist. :)
              Diana
            • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
              ... From: winters_dianaTo:
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 23, 2004
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: winters_dianaTo: <

                >
                > Andrea:
                >
                > >Pls can I ask you what is your knowledge about the Anthroposophical
                > >Medicine ?
                >
                > I'm afraid I will have to decline an invitation to discuss
                > anthroposophical medicine. Life is short. Perhaps I will be told
                > I've "run away" from an argument, on the other hand you've already
                > announced I know nothing about it, so I suggest we drop it there.
                > I'll just note that the lecture we were discussing


                Well, there is the kernel
                . You ignore again and again that Anthroposophy is a" Symphony" and you
                can't discuss on and on only a single note or movement without a true
                knowledge of the whole!!



                makes no mention
                > of any topic pertaining to anthroposophical medicine, it was Daniel's
                > clever idea

                The cleverness (actual clevernes, no idiot irony about it pls, ask a certain
                PS whipped every day by Daniel)) of Daniel is rooted also on his basic
                knowledge of the "Symphony" (see above)


                that that's what it was really about. In fact, Daniel has

                that whatever happens was meant to happen.
                >
                > >If this is YOUR idea of Karma, I can only complain you, madame.
                >
                > Whatever you say, Andrea. No, it is not *my* idea of karma.
                >
                No? And whose is, now ?


                > >Again. Why an individual who is unable to grasp anything about a
                > >matter goes on and on and on and on and on to dicsuss about it???
                >
                > I don't know. Why *do* you go on and on about it?

                Wow people here we see "WC's twist" in action !!
                So Diana's problem (bla bla about Anthro matters ) becomes mine!
                And you ask me "why I go about it " ?
                Well , if you wish.....

                I said that I live in a country off Anthro physicians. and you ACTUALLY seem
                to me to need some medical help about such a strange disease
                (No joke at all and no Scaccabarozzi 's therapy)
                >

                Andrea
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • winters_diana
                ... Well then, why when I suggested karma was also relevant to the discussion, did he act like that was the craziest thing he ever heard - why, karma is not
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 23, 2004
                  Andrea:

                  >The cleverness (actual clevernes, no idiot irony about it pls, ask a
                  >certain PS whipped every day by Daniel)) of Daniel is rooted also
                  >on his basic knowledge of the "Symphony" (see above)

                  Well then, why when I suggested karma was also relevant to the
                  discussion, did he act like that was the craziest thing he ever
                  heard - why, karma is not even mentioned in that lecture! (Immunology
                  isn't either, of course . . .)

                  You guys say critics don't understand enough about anthroposophy,
                  broadly, to address small points. When we demonstrate that we do, you
                  say, that's not what that lecture is about, Steiner doesn't mention
                  that in that lecture.
                  Hard to imagine a topic in anthroposophy where karma wouldn't be
                  relevant, wouldn't be part of the background understanding Steiner
                  assumed in his audience. (Many of the lecture transcriptions *say* he
                  assumed such background understanding in his audience.)

                  >I don't know. Why *do* you go on and on about it?

                  > Wow people here we see "WC's twist" in action !!
                  > So Diana's problem (bla bla about Anthro matters ) becomes mine!

                  Calm down, dearie, it was a little joke. You can really dish it out,
                  Andrea, but don't seem to enjoy it returned, even in mildest form! :)
                  Enjoy your day, or evening, or whatever time it is in Rome!
                  Diana
                • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
                  ... Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 6:00 PM Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: reading and falsehoods ... , - why, karma is not even mentioned in that
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 23, 2004
                    ----- Original Message -----

                    Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 6:00 PM
                    Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: reading and falsehoods


                    > Andrea:
                    >
                    > >The cleverness (actual clevernes, no idiot irony about it pls, ask a
                    > >certain PS whipped every day by Daniel)) of Daniel is rooted also
                    > >on his basic knowledge of the "Symphony" (see above)
                    >
                    >
                    ,
                    - why, karma is not even mentioned in that lecture!

                    Excuse me, but the topic here is not about "karma" in its overall meaning,
                    but about your untruthful statement about a quite determinist concept of the
                    word!
                    >
                    > You guys say critics don't understand enough about anthroposophy,
                    > broadly, to address small points. When we demonstrate that we do,


                    Pls can you help me? I actually missed a "demonstration" like this.
                    PS "himself" told on and on to be interested only in a little slice of the
                    apple (the invented topic of "racism") you say to know nothing about
                    Medicine (that is , in itself, a real synthesis of the Whole) and I see no
                    use to ask you more infos about your practice of KOHW or about Philosophy
                    Cristology,Angelology,Evolution and
                    History,,Architecture,Byofrarming,Eurythmy and so on-.
                    Sorry but I have to say again that I believe that the basic problem lies
                    in the fact that the WC knows really nothing of Anthroposophy in spite of
                    the fact that somebody here and there got some smattering of different
                    single topic.
                    .
                    you
                    > say, that's not what that lecture is about, Steiner doesn't mention
                    > that in that lecture.
                    > Hard to imagine a topic in anthroposophy where karma wouldn't be
                    > relevant, wouldn't be part of the background understanding Steiner
                    > assumed in his audience. (Many of the lecture transcriptions *say* he
                    > assumed such background understanding in his audience.)
                    >
                    > >I don't know. Why *do* you go on and on about it?
                    >
                    > > Wow people here we see "WC's twist" in action !!
                    > > So Diana's problem (bla bla about Anthro matters ) becomes mine!
                    >
                    > Calm down, dearie, it was a little joke

                    Uhu I like to joke via both words and pictures as you know.
                    (On Rome there is now a "sinefiasmeni paraskevi" evening, tks:)

                    A.
                    .
                    >
                    > Diana
                    >
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                    >
                    >
                  • winters_diana
                    ... Uh-oh, more untruths, slippery, slippery those critics! Good thing you are vigilant. :) ... I didn t say that. oh no! Untruths from your side now. Diana
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 23, 2004
                      >Excuse me, but the topic here is not about "karma" in its overall
                      >meaning, but about your untruthful statement about a quite
                      >determinist concept of the word!


                      Uh-oh, more untruths, slippery, slippery those critics! Good thing
                      you are vigilant. :)

                      >you say to know nothing about Medicine

                      I didn't say that. oh no! Untruths from your side now.
                      Diana
                    • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
                      ... To:
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 23, 2004
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        To: <
                        Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:05 PM
                        Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: reading and falsehoods


                        > >Excuse me, but the topic here is not about "karma" in its overall
                        > >meaning, but about your untruthful statement about a quite
                        > >determinist concept of the word!
                        >
                        >
                        > Uh-oh, more untruths, slippery, slippery those critics! Good thing
                        > you are vigilant. :)
                        >
                        Yes I'm paid a lot for this


                        > >you say to know nothing about Medicine
                        >
                        > I didn't say that. oh no!

                        True you said a different thing (no time to discuus it) and I apologize.

                        Andrea


                        Untruths from your side now.
                        > Diana
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Peter Staudenmaier
                        Andrea wrote: If you or somebody else had an idea about Anthoposophical medicine, especially about its development, you should also been aware how RS gave
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 23, 2004
                          Andrea wrote:
                           
                           
                          "If you or somebody else had an idea about Anthoposophical medicine,
                          especially about its development, you should also been aware how RS gave basic indication how to treat diseases from the stanndpoint of the
                          investigations on the links of the different "boides" of Human Being."
                           
                           
                          Here is some of what Rudolf Steiner had to say on the karma of peoples, the fate of lower races, and their connection to disease:
                           
                           
                          "If we want really to understand health and illness, we must bear in mind how complicated the circumstances are. Illness need not be a matter of individual karma only; the karma of a whole people has to be taken into account. An interesting example of how things in the spiritual life are inter-related can be seen in the migration of the Huns and Mongols who poured from Asia into the West. The Mongols were stragglers of the Atlanteans. While the Indians, the Germans and other peoples were progressing, the Mongols had remained behind. Just as the animals have separated off from the evolutionary path of mankind, so have certain lower peoples and races fallen behind. The Mongols were Atlanteans whose physical development had taken a downward course. In the astral bodies of such decadent people an abundance of decaying astral substance can be seen. When the Mongols fell upon the Germans and other Central European peoples, they created a wave of fear and panic. These emotions belong to the astral body, and under such conditions decaying astral substances will flourish. Thus the astral bodies of Europeans became infected and in later generations the infection came out in the physical body, affecting not merely individuals but whole groups of peoples. It emerged as leprosy, that terrible disease which wrought such devastation in the Middle Ages. It was the physical consequence of an influence on the astral body."
                           
                          (Steiner, At the Gates of Spiritual Science pp. 65-66)
                           
                           
                          A few pages later, Steiner expounds upon the relation of karma to physical heredity, the emergence of an "evil race", the distinction between "ascending" and "declining" races, and the "purpose of evolution"; as well as the role of the "Aryan race" and the various "missions" of the various "sub-races". Earlier in the book Steiner explains that racial differences are not merely physical; they impact the moral nature of the person, as well as their astral body and "I". Savages and Europeans are of a different moral and intellectual nature, according to Steiner, and this difference is clearly marked in the higher members of their being. Regarding the physical body, etheric body, astral body, and the I, Steiner proclaims:
                           
                           
                          "Every human being has these four members; but there is a difference between a primitive savage and a civilised European, and also between the latter and a Francis of Assisi, or a Schiller. A refinement of the moral nature produces finer colours in the aura; an increase in the power of discrimination between good and evil also shows itself in a refinement of the aura. In the process of becoming civilised the "I" has worked upon the astral body and ennobled the desires. The higher the moral and intellectual development of a man, the more will his "I" have worked upon the astral body. The seer can distinguish between a developed and an undeveloped human being."
                           
                          (Steiner, At the Gates of Spiritual Science p. 15)
                           
                           
                          Peter
                           
                           


                           

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                        • holderlin66
                          Peter Staudenmaier wrote: Here is some of what Rudolf Steiner had to say on the karma of peoples, the fate of lower races, and their connection to disease:
                          Message 12 of 18 , Apr 23, 2004
                            Peter Staudenmaier wrote:

                            "Here is some of what Rudolf Steiner had to say on the karma of
                            peoples, the fate of lower races, and their connection to disease:"

                            Sounds like a bad note being passed in class... Here read this,
                            pisst, pisst, look what johnny called sally, pisst, pass it on. Now
                            Ghengis Khan was a fine lad. The wonderful film with Alec
                            Baldwin "The Shadow" that went nowhere haf a wonderful opening
                            sequence to it, with Ghenghis Khan. The film was called "The
                            Shadow". The opening sequence was stunningly interesting to our
                            topic.

                            Naturally the reference I make to the film, and the failure you have
                            of making any kind of case against Steiner with your references,
                            becomes even more obvious with what follows.

                            But just off the top of my head, the TAO and the TAOTL were
                            references to beings on the Atlantean Altars. Taotl was the part of
                            the material borrowed from matter to shape forms. The Taotl part of
                            the scheme was the being who handles number, measure and weight and
                            was fairly important on the Atlantean altars.

                            The Tao was the ringing music of the spheres part of the Spirit and
                            the Taotl as matter to cloth the spirit worked together to cloth
                            spiritual beings, the animal kingdom in shrink wrap skin clothing.
                            But Taotl moved along the evolutionary line of Gold the Templars and
                            the Aztec altars. TAOTL gets progressively meaner and we can trace
                            this influence right up to the Third Reich.

                            Now the point was that Genghis Shocka Khan had a good dose of the
                            this Being who once shared the altars with TAO. Genghis was the
                            walking thrust of this being, fully inspired, for some time and the
                            opening of the film, "The Shadow" shows just what I mean by this.
                            The opening sequence of "The Shadow" gives a remarkable window into
                            this Taotl.. but the rest of the film was just junk.. the opening
                            had potential.

                            Now the invading hordes laid down such a wave of astral terror, such
                            disturbing imaginations of torture and fear that the astral blanket
                            of vivid nightmare and fear settled in as a form of parasitical
                            disease that allowed the immune systems of Europe to become
                            receptive to the plague. If we look at St. Anthony's fire and the
                            boils that erupted on the skin and the Colmar painting that healed
                            those afflicted, we see right into a window of Mel Gibson's "The
                            Passion". The Colmar paintings cured people of St. Anthony's fire
                            which was an extreme astral disturbance. The painting was done by
                            the Initiate Grunewald and the painting itself was so dramatic, and
                            I have studied these paintings carefully, that they cured certain
                            astral diseases that appeared at the time. The Rats were one thing
                            with the Plague, but the spread of the disease was in conjunction
                            with The FEAR FACTOR of the Mongul hordes.

                            The example you gave does not support your pet thesis but it was a
                            wonderful window into the depths of Steiner. It rather supports
                            Daniel and Steiner's understanding of the integration of etheric and
                            astral bodies with the immune system and weakness that bring causes
                            and effects from strange quarters to blanket and infect the astral
                            world. Your quotes do connect to my 12th lecture study of "Man as
                            Symphony" and it was really a prime example of the type of
                            parasitical receptivity described in the 12th lecture given by
                            Steiner in 1923.

                            Another thing it doesn't support for you, is the blatant difference
                            between St. Francis and Fredrich Schiller and a Cannibal. It doesn't
                            support your thesis or ideas, it rather goes to prove what all of us
                            have said all along. The I AM penetrates and elaborates the
                            Intellectual Soul, Consciousness Soul, Spirit Self...etc.. and this
                            makes the individual and cultural development itself, different from
                            those who have yet to take up higher learning and abstract thought
                            or those who have not been exposed to culture development at all.

                            Your example is like saying there is no difference for normal
                            observation between Abhraham Lincoln and Jeffery Dahmer. Which is to
                            say Moral elevation and moral depravity infect the soul in different
                            ways. Just like Cannibalism not only causes mad cow by eating brains
                            of animals but cannaibals also degenerate by eating themselves.
                            Depravity and having a degenerate group under the Mongol Hordes,
                            inspired by the most vicious degenerating spirit under the TAOTL,
                            Atlantean altars doesn't even come close to proving your point. It
                            rather proves Steiner right once again.
                          • Peter Staudenmaier
                            Hi Bradford, thanks for your refreshingly frank post. You wrote: the failure you have of making any kind of case against Steiner with your references Steiner
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 24, 2004
                              Hi Bradford, thanks for your refreshingly frank post. You wrote:
                               
                               
                              "the failure you have of making any kind of case against Steiner with your references"
                               
                               
                              Steiner isn't on trial, and there is no case against him as such. My case is about Steiner's teachings on race and ethnicity.
                               

                              "TAOTL gets progressively meaner and we can trace
                              this influence right up to the Third Reich."
                               
                               
                              I've got another movie recommendation for you. Go see Hellboy. It has a lot of fun making light of this sort of comic-book history.
                               

                              "Now the invading hordes laid down such a wave of astral terror, such
                              disturbing imaginations of torture and fear that the astral blanket
                              of vivid nightmare and fear settled in as a form of parasitical
                              disease that allowed the immune systems of Europe to become
                              receptive to the plague. If we look at St. Anthony's fire and the
                              boils that erupted on the skin and the Colmar painting that healed
                              those afflicted, we see right into a window of Mel Gibson's "The
                              Passion". "
                               
                               
                              You mean Mel's got some sort of disease? That might explain a lot about his movie.
                               
                               
                              "The Colmar paintings cured people of St. Anthony's fire
                              which was an extreme astral disturbance. The painting was done by
                              the Initiate Grunewald and the painting itself was so dramatic, and
                              I have studied these paintings carefully, that they cured certain
                              astral diseases that appeared at the time."
                               
                               
                              Well that's a relief. Maybe Mel can find the time to get himself to Alsace for the cure, and his next movie might not be such dreck.
                               
                               
                              "Another thing it doesn't support for you, is the blatant difference
                              between St. Francis and Fredrich Schiller and a Cannibal."
                               
                               
                              Uh, Bradford? Steiner doesn't mention cannibals in the passages I quoted. Is there some reason you thought cannibalism was relevant in this context?
                               
                               
                              "this makes the individual and cultural development itself, different from
                              those who have yet to take up higher learning and abstract thought
                              or those who have not been exposed to culture development at all."
                               
                               
                              You mean that the people Steiner calls "primitive savages" had not been exposed to cultural development at all? They grew up outside of culture? In a space station orbiting the earth maybe? Or an airtight bubble somewhere, sealed off from the outside world?


                              "Your example is like saying there is no difference for normal
                              observation between Abhraham Lincoln and Jeffery Dahmer."
                               
                               
                              Dahmer was a criminal. "Primitive" peoples are not, as such, criminals. Perhaps you think otherwise?
                               
                               
                              "Which is to say Moral elevation and moral depravity infect the soul in different ways."
                               
                               
                              Do you think that "primitive" peoples have different kinds of souls from other peoples?
                               
                               
                              "Just like Cannibalism not only causes mad cow by eating brains
                              of animals but cannaibals also degenerate by eating themselves."
                               
                               
                              What does cannibalism have to do with it? Are you trying to tell us that you think all "primitive" peoples are or were cannibals? And would this explain why some of them "had to die out" in your view?
                               
                               
                              Curious,
                               
                               
                              Peter
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               


                               

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                            • holderlin66
                              Peter Staudenmaier wrote: brad; Which is to say Moral elevation and moral depravity infect the soul in different ways. peter; Do you think that primitive
                              Message 14 of 18 , Apr 24, 2004
                                Peter Staudenmaier wrote:

                                brad;
                                Which is to say Moral elevation and moral depravity infect the soul
                                in different ways."

                                peter;
                                Do you think that "primitive" peoples have different kinds of souls
                                from other peoples?

                                Well lets see, we proved that a toxic wave of astral nightmare swept
                                through Europe, provoked by butchers who had no mercy, no human
                                compassion and no respect for village, town or culture. However the
                                toxic wave was so horrifyingly primitive that we had to marvel,
                                where the heck that came from? A wave of depravity, inspired by what?

                                Comic Books, maybe so. Atlantean installations in the Gobi were also
                                the thing of comics back in the 1920's. You might not want to narrow
                                your perception of all that leaks through culture, even in the form
                                of comic books. Startling affirmations, twisted though they be, can
                                be observed if you have a keen eye.

                                Since I worked at the CDC, I have had some time to study epidemics.
                                The boils that appeared and were cured by those who had St.
                                Anthony's fire, might do well today with different remedies than a
                                stunning vivid painting. But the vivid painting of the Crucifixion
                                and Resurrection, the most stunning one ever painted, was placed as
                                comic book panels, while the patients, in pain, experienced an
                                entire astral agony, with the vividness of the painting by
                                Grunewald.

                                Steiner was very, very advanced in his study of the immune system,
                                so termed today, but classically termed the Etheric Body. The
                                Etheric Body is the lymphatic immune system and this has been
                                documented very carefully, long before anybody even imagined immune
                                system. Today you rank among the ignorant in the fact that you do
                                not know how to connect immune system with etheric body. It reveals
                                a cultural stuntedness that you share with the AMA.

                                The Etheric body is like many ground breaking terms and insights. In
                                retrospect you might say, Oh, that can't mean that or this or the
                                other. Modern humanity, not the Polynesians, or Mayans were to
                                encounter and bear more and more forceful illneseses. But isolated
                                tribes, left over from ancient migrations were etheically like green
                                house plants. However in Spiritual Science, karma and medicine and
                                in particular the example of the invading Hordes you gave, are
                                perfect examples of this very parastical weakness of the immune
                                system, having been spread by sheer, unchecked terror.

                                I can point out to you the etheric scar that Michael Jackson got in
                                his development when his parents gave him female hormones to keep
                                his voice high and his disturbing childhood stardom, failed to enter
                                puberty properly. I can point out the interface to certain
                                manifesations of illness, or we could even look at Philip the Fair
                                of circa 1330 something. Here we can examine very interesting
                                problems of the astral body. I know you wouldn't be able to follow,
                                but you obviously came here to get an education which you lack.

                                Terror, horror, and "The Nightmare on Elm STreet" movies, have to do
                                with the Astral body. It is clear that such a cartoon series
                                as "NightMare on Elm Street", all had to do with falling asleep and
                                leaving your physical body in your bed and entering your astral body
                                and the lower astral world. Oh it pays to pay attention to cultural
                                cartoons. Once out of your body, in the world of images and
                                nightmares, you were in an astral landscape of DreamCAtchers.
                                Dreamcatchers were spider web like constructions to enable you to
                                capture your journeys in the astral world. We can learn a lot from
                                culture when we look at it carefully. At least 'we' meaning those
                                who are operating with a higher intelligence than you.

                                The essence of Depravity or Moral development proceeds two ways.
                                Studied conscious depravity is nothing less than packing up the
                                Jewish population and sending them to ovens. Zyclon B Cyanide has a
                                shattering occult effect. Cyanide is a peculiar substance for the I
                                AM. Only a scientist can go from cyanide to the core of comets in
                                space and the destiny of Halley's comet linked to MarK Twain in a
                                matter of pages.

                                So if we enter a new CDC paradigm, (Center for Disease Control) we
                                find not only astral illnesses, etheric problems, but also cyanide
                                can deter the form of the I AM. Who had the most advanced research
                                into the medical foundations of humanity? Who brought the deepest
                                insights into the cure and cause of Cancer and the deepest
                                understanding of epidemiology, well in advance of the CDC? Anthro
                                Medicine that is who. But you are not thoughtful enough to see the
                                connections. That means, frankly, you are not too bright.

                                Where ever groundbreaking, cutting edge research, profound research
                                arose, at the center of it was Spiritual Science. Anything that
                                researchers can investigate or uncover, is integrated within the
                                foundations of Spiritual Science. There is to my mind, hardly one
                                topic that Spiritual Science couldn't add something richer to the
                                current research paradigms. Science is riddled with Spiritual
                                Science but Science does realize it yet. But Spiritual Science sees
                                both forms of research and how they interface. There is nothing in
                                the research of Spiritual Science that is not at the foundation of
                                everything that was ever made.

                                So as to the depravity, and primitive issues of an entire group,
                                acting as a group surge, using a Cartoon (to you) inspired Being
                                named TAOTL to bring a savage astral terrorism to the whole
                                foundation of Europe, that is the case. The Attack was pretty
                                impressive if you think about it. It certainly did not reflect a
                                higher moral elevation of racial urges by human standards. However
                                your standards are different. This Being who rode in on the invading
                                hordes used advanced astral epidemiology techniques and this same
                                being was also the cool industrial corporate (inspired) killer, for
                                the mass ethnic cleansing of Jews or the African Ruwanda catastrophe.

                                And a radical statement from my Man as Symphony notes tell us that
                                enormous amount of human bodies have had to be produced to take away
                                the vast hatreds infecting the after life, brought across the
                                borders into the physical world by humanity. This gives an
                                indication of the peculiar mass population growth over the globe and
                                the underlining reasons why so many ugly events of mass murder have
                                gone on unchecked.

                                Human forms and souls have absorbed this pollution of hatred and
                                Steiner presented what was required to cure these mass
                                exterminations and cleanse the atmosphere of the Earth. The moral
                                atmosphere of the Earth and hatred is literally absorbed by human
                                forms. Steiner traced the cycle showing that humanity must get a
                                grip on understanding, not misunderstanding their fellow man.
                                Understanding is Wisdom and feelings are Love, which Brings togther
                                Michael Wisdom with Sophia Wisdom... AnthroSophia.

                                Anyways those Mongol hordes failed your rankings of higher and lower
                                categories because, depravity isn't highly ranked in terms of
                                quality. So if you cannot see the difference between and refuse to
                                see the difference between depravity and Christology you are back in
                                the same dead end you started with.
                              • Peter Staudenmaier
                                Bradford, who appears to believe that racists drive pickup trucks, writes: The Etheric body is like many ground breaking terms and insights. In retrospect you
                                Message 15 of 18 , Apr 25, 2004
                                  Bradford, who appears to believe that racists drive pickup trucks, writes:
                                   
                                   
                                  "The Etheric body is like many ground breaking terms and insights. In
                                  retrospect you might say, Oh, that can't mean that or this or the
                                  other. Modern humanity, not the Polynesians, or Mayans were to
                                  encounter and bear more and more forceful illneseses."
                                   
                                   
                                  There are lots of Mayan peoples and Polynesian peoples around today, Bradford. They belong to modern humanity as much as all other peoples.
                                   
                                   
                                  "So as to the depravity, and primitive issues of an entire group,
                                  acting as a group surge, using a Cartoon (to you) inspired Being
                                  named TAOTL to bring a savage astral terrorism to the whole
                                  foundation of Europe, that is the case."
                                   
                                   
                                  So you believe that some racial and ethnic groups as a whole are more "primitive" than others, both physically and spiritually, and that these "primitive" groups terrorized Europe? But when Europeans encountered Native Americans, the latter died out not because of savage terrorism, but because of their own unfortunate racial constitution and because they were destined to do so? No attacks in that instance, no invading hordes, just cosmic-racial fate?
                                   
                                   
                                  "And a radical statement from my Man as Symphony notes tell us that
                                  enormous amount of human bodies have had to be produced to take away the vast hatreds infecting the after life, brought across the
                                  borders into the physical world by humanity."
                                   
                                   
                                  Well, in that case, I guess it's a darn good thing that all those primitive bodies were lying around to take away the hatreds. Sure makes things easier for modern humanity. 
                                   
                                   
                                  Peter


                                   

                                  Do you think that "primitive" peoples have different kinds of souls
                                  from other peoples?

                                  Well lets see

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                                • holderlin66
                                  Ecofascism and Ecobrotherhood These two concepts are the foundational antipodes in two specific diametrically different and opposed points of reference.
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Apr 25, 2004
                                    Ecofascism and Ecobrotherhood

                                    These two concepts are the foundational antipodes in two specific
                                    diametrically different and opposed points of reference.

                                    Ecofascism was applied with brutal intensity, during the "Final
                                    Solution" technique of the Nazi's. If we try to black flag,
                                    exterminate with massive doses of pesticide, some infecting insect,
                                    beetle, mite there is a reality of ecofascism that matches the Nazi
                                    attempt to exterminate all those within the contest of the "Final
                                    Solution". Ecofascism presents a dominating abstract moral paradigm
                                    projected into the Life Body of Nature and humanity.

                                    When the Mongol Hordes set out to exterminate, raze, annihilate
                                    everything in its path it was again the same sort of application to
                                    the moral sphere of humanity as corporate systems have applied to
                                    bugs, mites, beetles and vermin. This Corporate ideology also means
                                    extermination under the military heading of "Collateral Damage".
                                    There is no difference in EcoFascism and infecting the Life ethers
                                    when you place infected Depleted Uranium into the soil, and
                                    atmosphere of a country. Trees, soil, water, dates, figs all bear a
                                    new shelf life poison to an entire eco-region. This amounts to
                                    nothing less than EcoFascism.

                                    Ecofascism is when we the use of nuclear threat incinerates a city.
                                    It is important to shape in our minds eye what is true ecofascism
                                    and what is the true nature of Spiritual Science and Ecobrothehood.

                                    Ecobrotherhood was literally observed in some of the esoteric
                                    aspects of the Native Americans. There, unlike Wild Bill Hickok who
                                    exterminated the Buffalo in mass slaughter, the Native Americans saw
                                    brother deer, buffalo, eagle, salmon, winds, dog, as part of a vast
                                    interconnected ecosystem they lived in. Borrowing or withdrawing
                                    meat from the account of nature was placed on the balance sheet of
                                    human moral integrity.

                                    If Ecofascism becomes part of the law of the military, the
                                    accidental confrontations with etherically greenhoused primitive
                                    immune systems, Mayans, Polynesians etc.. can turn around to become
                                    conscious biological warfare techniques that could investigate and
                                    enhance various diseases and target various racial groups. This has
                                    already become the law of the land. This is the reason why critics
                                    cannot tell the difference now between Ecofascism and
                                    Ecobrotherhood.

                                    Already the Fascism, the Ecofascism involved with military research
                                    that target racial and genetic systems in various peoples are well
                                    advanced. This is Ecofacism as a weapon of immoral and targeted
                                    destruction. On one hand accidental smallpox and disease weaknesses
                                    impacted greenhouse primitive cultures; on the other hand, conscious
                                    biotechniques to enhance new disease and epidemic features into
                                    designer diseases, is well under way to undermine humanity with
                                    weapons of conscious ecofascism. Inability to discern the difference
                                    between these two realities amounts to RETARDATION of thought.

                                    If strengthening the etheric body through the wisdom of education,
                                    understanding epidemiology from the standpoint of astral, etheric
                                    and I AM forces and building on the new Christ Brotherhood potential
                                    in the new Etheric forces of humanity, means that there is nothing
                                    more advanced than the Ecobrotherhood presented by Spiritual
                                    Science. It is here where plant pests are studied with specific
                                    attention to how weaknesses in the etheric earth, the soil, the air,
                                    or seeds give rise to how illness is attacted to weaknesses in the
                                    etheric structure and the plants themselves reflect infestations
                                    that reveal real etheric weaknesses in the plant and elemental
                                    community. Ecobrotherhood boasts of a science of healing and
                                    assisting plants and the elemental community to lend us their forces
                                    to improve the etheric health of plants.

                                    These weaknesses in plants and the etheric world are countered by
                                    consciously using right Spiritual Science techniques to constantly
                                    find balance and health for plants, animal and human existence. If
                                    it be Waldorf Education that gives the future and growing I AM new
                                    forces of thinking and brotherhood; If it be new healing aspects of
                                    the Arts of medicine, curative Eurythmy, painting, that work with
                                    rejuvenating the astral body with new techniques in color work and
                                    theme, these are Ecobrotherhood realities that counteract the
                                    direction of Ecofascism that has arisen and runs through military,
                                    corporate and political ideologies. The difference is striking.

                                    Contrasting Ecofascism with Ecobrotherhood and healing concepts that
                                    arise that serve humanity against and instead of extermination
                                    paradigms, such as GM, or genetically manipulated etheric structures
                                    of various plants, reveal thought manipulations of ecofascism. If we
                                    change and mix goats and sheeps together we carry a sharp attack
                                    into the group soul of the animals. This Genetically Manipulated
                                    attack into the group soul of animals is an attribute of EcoFascism.

                                    To study what the various species have and what they contribute to
                                    the ecological system has only begun to be explored. Rachel Carson
                                    began the study of the interconnectedness of the eco system and the
                                    interdependency of various species, wet lands, mountains, pollution,
                                    atmosphere, lakes, ponds and run off of pesticide pollutants.
                                    Ecobrotherhood has grown and now extends into the dangerous
                                    manipulation of etheric forces in GM or Genetically Manufactured and
                                    manipulated life forms. Rather than understand Earth's initmate
                                    relationships, Ecofascism, like Fascism in general, overrides and
                                    imposes a new nature over a nature science is too frustrated to
                                    understand. That includes human nature, the sea the health of the
                                    sea, the air, the plants and the animals spread out in nature. It
                                    includes regions where the Earth breathes, vents, cools, heats up,
                                    sheds, migrations of the astral navigation of animals..all meddled
                                    and imposed upon, because we don't want to understand the larger
                                    picture.

                                    EcoFascism that over rides and imposes a corporate profit paradigm
                                    on the foundational understanding of plant products, animal
                                    products, nutrition or reincarnation by aiming attacks on
                                    genetically manipulating human forms by transgressions into the
                                    etheric nature of variious attributes in races, chill with
                                    tyrannical conceptual corporate attacks into the very body of
                                    Humanity and nature. This is Ecofascism and cannot be applied to
                                    Spiritual Science.

                                    EcoBrotherhood radiates out of every aspect of research that
                                    Spiritual Science offers. Spiritual Science offers the scaffolding
                                    of the I AM and the sweep of the biography of the human being as
                                    connected with the highest mysteries of immortaltity. Plants and the
                                    etheric health of the earth, as a science are studied with stunning
                                    intensity. Art and Medicine as well as thought and Christology lead
                                    the human soul into sharpened forces of the astral body and clarity
                                    and devlopment of soul organs are encourged to take up esoteric
                                    development and strengthen the structures of compassion, insight and
                                    love. These methods of approach are the new healing regions of
                                    Christology and EcoChristology.

                                    Now it would be amazingly biased and corrupt to reverse the concepts
                                    of Ecofacism and place Spiritual Science as an encourager of
                                    EcoFascism and Dialectical Materialism as an encourager of
                                    Ecobrotherhood and EcoChristology. Yet, it appears that certain
                                    spin, reverse information in the form of disinformation, people wish
                                    to billboard EcoFascism as something connected to Spiritual Science.
                                    Nothing could be even remotely true, but spinning thoughts in this
                                    direction reveals fully failed thinking.

                                    Moral reality that runs from the floor of the universe to the top of
                                    the universe, as indicated in Lecture 12 of "Man as Symphony"
                                    reveals how moral forces and freedom are woven into the entire
                                    ecosystem of the I AM and nature. Fascism is a tyranical theory of
                                    imposed moral insight. Such moral insight has been charged as
                                    fascism to the body of Spiritual Science. How such reversed spun
                                    theories arise when it comes to the idea of ECOBrotherhood and
                                    EcoFascism leads us to the most warped thinking and cannot help but
                                    be subject to critical fire strokes from those who recognize the
                                    workings of deception and spin in their authors.

                                    Maintaining a mature grasp of Ecological health from the moral in
                                    man to the moral forces applied consciously to the health of nature
                                    allows humanity to see the relationship between Goodness, Health and
                                    Truth in the human being and wisdom, insight and health in the world
                                    of nature. MAD or Mutually Assured Desturction is a wonderful term
                                    for the type of Fascism that is applied in small pockets of science,
                                    corporate and military specialization. EXtermination of humanity
                                    from the planet is not a solution, yet ECOfacism supports such
                                    solutions. That humanity is the mission of the Earth is the message
                                    of Spiritual Science and EcoChristology.

                                    It matters very little that small fragments of Ecofacism come to
                                    life in pesticides, in military concepts like collateral damage or
                                    MAD for the Life Ether of the planet. ECoFAcism at it's core is the
                                    targeted ellimination and severing the moral in man from the moral
                                    in nature and the universe. On this ground, solid, clear and higher
                                    ground, there can be no truth to Spiritual Science having anything
                                    faintly to do with ECOfascism.

                                    Spiritual Science and EcoChristology is based on the recovery of the
                                    Life Ethers for the future use of humanity and the earth. Life
                                    ethers are not even grasped by corporate fascism, product driven
                                    profit margins and creating a brood of consumer animals world wide.
                                    The inention, the ignorance is malicious and laced with lies such as
                                    those that tie Ecofascism and Spiritual Science is some sort of
                                    dance of death. Spiritual Science is involved with the Dance of life
                                    and the Life Ethers. Spiritual Science is searcher for the clues of
                                    the Risen Ethers brought forth through the Christ impulse. Therefore
                                    if any definition can be applied to Spiritual Science, it cannot be
                                    Fascism.
                                  • VALENTINA BRUNETTI
                                    ... - Andrea s 2cc here: There are also a third and a fourth possibility.. You don t deserve to be harmed neither you are someone else s victim. The third
                                    Message 17 of 18 , May 1, 2004
                                      ----- Original Message -----




                                      -


                                      Andrea's 2cc here:
                                      There are also a third and a fourth possibility.. You don't deserve to be
                                      harmed neither you are someone else's victim. The third is about the fact
                                      that you , by the mean of bearing someone else's burden, do a "graceful"
                                      action towards him.
                                      There are cases like the following: A guy before his birth "exchanges" a
                                      body full of healthy-rooted possibilities with another one feeble and
                                      inclined towards illness.
                                      Fourth: You don't "deserve" the bad event , but you will receive a good "pay
                                      for it " in your next life.
                                      In the karmic issues we must ask ourselves on and on if the "bad event" is
                                      only a "mask" and the "bad" is really as it seems to be.....
                                      As a matter of fact the study of own's one karma is one of the most
                                      important features inside the Spiritual Development's Path of Spiritual
                                      Science.
                                      Massimo Scaligero entitled a chapter of his book "Reincarnazione e karma"
                                      as "Metaphysical Identity of Karma and Freedom".
                                      He wanted to throw light over the fact that there is a Consciousness's
                                      level, the I AM one, where the "why" and "how" of the karmic background are
                                      eventually clarified, and the Anthroposophy's scholar is called walking
                                      such a path of inner "clarification".
                                      This was to say , Diana and all, that in ordrr to a proper understanding
                                      of karma we have really to be free from rigid,deterministic, static, ways
                                      of thinking more, as possible, than in other spiritual issues

                                      To Diana : Anthroposophy is just the opposite of the
                                      "bio-deterministic-spiritualistism" the that you think She is.

                                      Andrea



                                      > Finally, forgiveness is the highest spiritual good; if someone owe's
                                      > you for a past misdeed and you forgive them - either by forgoing
                                      > your natural revenge or by renouncing the recompense that is due to
                                      > you (so that it may be used for those who need it more) - then you
                                      > are performing one of the most powerful deeds a free human being can
                                      > accomplish. In Anthroposophy there is simply no excuse for harming
                                      > others (weakness in an explanation, but not an excuse - and yes, we
                                      > are all weak). Steiner would never condone genocide or war.
                                      >
                                      > This is the picture of karma that Steiner repeated numerous times. In
                                      > anthroposophy karma is not some cheap excuse for ignoring other
                                      > people's suffering. Nor is it an easy answer for all of life's
                                      > questions. Life retains as much mystery with karma as without it.
                                      >
                                      > Natural epidemics are more likely to have spiritual causes because
                                      > the happen without human will causing them. Genocide, in as much as
                                      > it is the result of conscious human actions, are human
                                      > esponsibility. Everything a European did to a Native American is the
                                      > full responsibility of the European (and vice versa). We are all,
                                      > always, responsible for our own actions. We are not always
                                      > responsible for our circumstances, but we are responsible for
                                      > how we respond to our circumstances."
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • holderlin66
                                      holderlin wrote: Ecofascism and Ecobrotherhood If strengthening the etheric body through the wisdom of education, understanding epidemiology from the
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jun 10, 2004
                                        holderlin wrote:

                                        Ecofascism and Ecobrotherhood

                                        "If strengthening the etheric body through the wisdom of education,
                                        understanding epidemiology from the standpoint of astral, etheric
                                        and I AM forces and building on the new Christ Brotherhood potential
                                        in the new Etheric forces of humanity, means that there is nothing
                                        more advanced than the Ecobrotherhood presented by Spiritual
                                        Science. It is here where plant pests are studied with specific
                                        attention to how weaknesses in the etheric earth, the soil, the air,
                                        or seeds give rise to how illness is attacted to weaknesses in the
                                        etheric structure and the plants themselves reflect infestations
                                        that reveal real etheric weaknesses in the plant and elemental
                                        community. Ecobrotherhood boasts of a science of healing and
                                        assisting plants and the elemental community to lend us their forces
                                        to improve the etheric health of plants.

                                        These weaknesses in plants and the etheric world are countered by
                                        consciously using right Spiritual Science techniques to constantly
                                        find balance and health for plants, animal and human existence. If
                                        it be Waldorf Education that gives the future and growing I AM new
                                        forces of thinking and brotherhood; If it be new healing aspects of
                                        the Arts of medicine, curative Eurythmy, painting, that work with
                                        rejuvenating the astral body with new techniques in color work and
                                        theme, these are Ecobrotherhood realities that counteract the
                                        direction of Ecofascism that has arisen and runs through military,
                                        corporate and political ideologies. The difference is striking.

                                        Contrasting Ecofascism with Ecobrotherhood and healing concepts that
                                        arise that serve humanity against and instead of extermination
                                        paradigms, such as GM, or genetically manipulated etheric structures
                                        of various plants, reveal thought manipulations of ecofascism. If we
                                        change and mix goats and sheeps together we carry a sharp attack
                                        into the group soul of the animals. This Genetically Manipulated
                                        attack into the group soul of animals is an attribute of EcoFascism.

                                        To study what the various species have and what they contribute to
                                        the ecological system has only begun to be explored. Rachel Carson
                                        began the study of the interconnectedness of the eco system and the
                                        interdependency of various species, wet lands, mountains, pollution,
                                        atmosphere, lakes, ponds and run off of pesticide pollutants.
                                        Ecobrotherhood has grown and now extends into the dangerous
                                        manipulation of etheric forces in GM or Genetically Manufactured and
                                        manipulated life forms. Rather than understand Earth's initmate
                                        relationships, Ecofascism, like Fascism in general, overrides and
                                        imposes a new nature over a nature science is too frustrated to
                                        understand. That includes human nature, the sea the health of the
                                        sea, the air, the plants and the animals spread out in nature. It
                                        includes regions where the Earth breathes, vents, cools, heats up,
                                        sheds, migrations of the astral navigation of animals..all meddled
                                        and imposed upon, because we don't want to understand the larger
                                        picture."

                                        http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/061004G.shtml

                                        Designer Ecosystems are Now in Vogue
                                        By David Suzuki
                                        Environmental News Network

                                        Tuesday 08 June 2004

                                        We have designer clothes and designer perfumes. Now we need
                                        designer ecosystems - at least according to a group of scientists
                                        writing a report in the journal Science.

                                        The authors argue that humans have so monumentally interfered
                                        with the planet's natural systems that we have to stop focusing on
                                        the fewer and fewer remaining undisturbed ecosystems on Earth.
                                        Instead, they say, we need to focus a lot more on the services nature
                                        provides and how to modify ecosystems to make sure they can continue
                                        to provide these services in a human-dominated world.

                                        It's an interesting idea. Natural services are essential for
                                        human survival. Even with all our ingenuity, we cannot artificially
                                        recreate the systems that have evolved over 4 billion years on this
                                        planet to build the very conditions necessary for life to exist.

                                        As far as we know, ours is the only planet in the entire universe
                                        to have accomplished this monumental task. From water filtration to
                                        climate stability and soil fertility, there is an intelligence
                                        embedded in these natural systems that we are only just beginning to
                                        fathom.

                                        At the same time, human activities are pushing the capacity of
                                        these systems to their limits. And with a projected population of 9
                                        billion by 2050, we cannot afford to continue with business as usual.

                                        With this in mind, the authors bring up two very important
                                        points. First, the knowledge that we do have about ecosystem services
                                        is not widely disseminated, and it is certainly not being acted upon.

                                        For example, we have known for some time about the importance of
                                        city green spaces for water filtration. Plants and soil are essential
                                        in helping remove impurities from our water. Yet, rarely is this
                                        knowledge incorporated into urban design. Instead, we funnel
                                        rainwater from our roads and rooftops into concrete drainage systems
                                        that empty directly into our lakes and rivers - causing tremendous
                                        pollution.

                                        Second, as the authors point out, all the scientific knowledge in
                                        the world won't protect natural services unless the public
                                        understands that they are vital to our health and well being. Without
                                        the public bringing sufficient pressure to bear on our political and
                                        business leaders, those leaders are unlikely to make the policy
                                        changes needed to ensure the protection of ecosystem services.

                                        But for all its value, the report does miss some key points.
                                        First, the analysis provides barely any sense of how little we
                                        actually know. We are only just beginning to understand how our
                                        complicated natural systems work.

                                        We don't even have an adequate grasp of how many species there
                                        are on the planet or what they do.

                                        Also missing is the crucial point that there are still intact
                                        ecosystems providing important services to humanity. Large parts of
                                        the Amazon basin and Canada's boreal forest are still fairly
                                        pristine. These forests are extremely important resources for life
                                        diversity and climate stability.

                                        Removal of their forest cover would have profound repercussions
                                        in terms of global weather patterns and climate change. Even small
                                        patches of relatively undisturbed ecosystems in or near our cities
                                        are extremely valuable in terms of providing refuge for wildlife.

                                        Extreme caution is also necessary around the very idea of
                                        designing ecosystems. Generally, minimal interference has proven to
                                        be the best policy. In fact, whenever humans have tried to design or
                                        modify ecosystems in the past, it has usually resulted in disaster.
                                        Ecosystems are incredibly complicated. We barely know how parts of
                                        these systems function, let alone the whole. For example, when we
                                        have introduced alien species, we have inadvertently caused a host of
                                        other unexpected problems.

                                        Still, any discussion of natural services is very important. The
                                        value of these services is largely ignored in our current economic
                                        and political systems. We treat them as though they are free and
                                        limitless, when in fact they are invaluable and irreplaceable.

                                        And although designer ecosystems may be necessary one day, more
                                        important are thoughtfully designed human systems, from our cities to
                                        our energy sources and our agriculture. It's much easier to learn to
                                        live within the natural systems we have now than to try to
                                        desperately redesign the ones we have left later."
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