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Re: Hate group?

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  • val2160
    ... anthroposophy.-Val Although this formulation does have the added benefit of deifying the good while at the same time demonizing the bad. All in one
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 9, 2011
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      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "val2160" <wdenval@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > "The worst enemy of Ormuzd bears the name of 'Calumny' — one of
      > the
      > > chief qualities of Ahriman."
      > > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: "Zarathustra", Dornach, January 19th, 1911, GA
      > 60)
      > > T
      >
      > Good and evil by association-again says nothing about anthroposophy.-Val

      Although this formulation does have the added benefit of deifying the good while at the same time demonizing the bad. All in one sentence. Well done!-Val

      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith"
      > > fts.trasla@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Who was it who called the Waldorf Critics a hate group?
      > > >
      > > > "Not at all. I hold Hitler personally responsible for the crimes and
      > > would have supported his execution. And all the other Nazi leaders,
      > and
      > > hundreds more who knew what they were doing. The task was so daunting,
      > > and the need to get on with recovery so great, that the Allies only
      > > skimmed the cream of the movement in the
      > > > Nuremburg trials. Responsibility was much wider, and includes
      > > Anthroposophy as a movement.
      > > >
      > > > -Dan [Dugan]
      > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waldorf-critics/message/17272
      > > >
      > > > "Waldorf is to education as RAPE is to sex!!!"
      > > > Pete K. - his slogan.
      > > > Frank
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • val2160
      A stereotype, in printing, also known as a cliché, stereoplate or simply a stereo, was originally a a solid plate or type-metal, cast from a papier-mâché
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 9, 2011
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        stereotype, in printing, also known as a clichéstereoplate or simply a stereo, was originally a "a solid plate or type-metal, cast from a papier-mâché or plaster mould taken from the surface of a forme of type"[1] used for printing instead of the original.

        [edit]Origin

        Stereotyping was invented by William Ged in 1725.[2]

        Over time, this became a metaphor for any set of ideas repeated identically, en bloc, with minor changes. In fact, cliché and stereotype were both originally printers' words, and in their literal printers' meanings were synonymous. Specifically, cliché was an onomatopoeic word for the sound that was made during the stereotyping process when the matrix hit molten metal. This was known as 'dabbing' in English. Precisely, the forme was placed on molten lead at the point of cooling to make the cast.[3]

        The term "stereotype" derives from Greek ÏƒÏ„ερεός (stereos) "solid, firm[4] + Ï„ύπος (tupos) "blow, impression, engraved mark"[5] and in its modern sense was coined in 1798.



      • val2160
        Racism has existed throughout human history. It may be defined as the hatred of one person by another -- or the belief that another person is less than human
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 15, 2011
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          Racism has existed throughout human history. It may be defined as the hatred of one person by another -- or the belief that another person is less than human -- because of skin color, language, customs, place of birth or any factor that supposedly reveals the basic nature of that person. It has influenced wars, slavery, the formation of nations, and legal codes.

          http://www.adl.org/hate-patrol/racism.asp

          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "val2160" <wdenval@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > A stereotype, in printing, also known as a cliché, stereoplate or
          > simply a stereo, was originally a "a solid plate or type-metal, cast
          > from a papier-mâché
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papier-m%C3%A2ch%C3%A9> or plaster mould
          > taken from the surface of a forme <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/forme>
          > of type"[1]
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_(printing)#cite_note-0> used
          > for printing <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing> instead of the
          > original.
          > [edit
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stereotype_(printing)&action=\
          > edit&section=1> ]Origin
          > Stereotyping was invented by William Ged
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ged> in 1725.[2]
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_(printing)#cite_note-1>
          >
          > Over time, this became a metaphor
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor> for any set of ideas repeated
          > identically, en bloc, with minor changes. In fact, cliché
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clich%C3%A9> and stereotype were both
          > originally printers' words, and in their literal printers' meanings were
          > synonymous. Specifically, cliché
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clich%C3%A9> was an onomatopoeic
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onomatopoeia> word for the sound that was
          > made during the stereotyping process when the matrix hit molten metal.
          > This was known as 'dabbing' in English. Precisely, the forme was placed
          > on molten lead at the point of cooling to make the cast.[3]
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_(printing)#cite_note-2>
          >
          > The term "stereotype" derives from Greek
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language> στερεός
          > (stereos) "solid, firm[4]
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_(printing)#cite_note-3> +
          > τύπος (tupos) "blow, impression, engraved mark"[5]
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_(printing)#cite_note-4> and in
          > its modern sense was coined in 1798.
          >

        • fs13997
          It is always easy to dismiss those who lose and write history from the perspective of those who won. Yet, things are never black and white, and wwii makes no
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 20, 2011
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            It is always easy to dismiss those who lose and write history from the perspective of those who won. Yet, things are never black and white, and wwii makes no distinction.
            This book was recently brought to my attention.

            http://www.amazon.com/Crimes-Mercies-Civilians-Occupation-1944-1950/dp/0751522775
          • ted.wrinch
            I think that this is an interesting and sad topic, part of the woe and barbarity of the C20. And it s interesting to see the vilification that the author has
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 25, 2011
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              I think that this is an interesting and sad topic, part of the woe and barbarity of the C20. And it's interesting to see the vilification that the author has received for attempting to bring this material to light. Still, I think that many people would end up saying 'what's bad about a few million Germans less in the world' or 'they deserved it' - and, relative to two world wars and the millions of non German lives lost as a consequence, one can almost understand the perspective of such a point of view.

              Meanwhile, feel the hate over in WC as Diana and co discuss 'The work of the angels in man's astral body' under their continuing title of 'The love that dare not speak its name' (the term for homosexuality used in Oscar Wilde's trial)

              Introduction to the lecture:

              "Something would enter into people's blood as a
              consequence of sexual life that would above all make people go against
              brotherliness on Earth rather than develop brotherliness."

              Diana: "I am out of time so cannot ramble in my usual fashion about the seemingly
              endless ways in which this material appalls me, but I'm sure I'm not the only
              one."

              Tom: "I had forgotten that this is the one lecture
              where Anthros can pinpoint Steiner's attitude toward homosexuality now, since he
              was predicting the future here. And with the sentence about something entering
              the blood as a result of this perverted sexual activity — well, that's obviously
              the AIDS virus spread by gay men."

              AIDS and homosexuality lead to lack of brotherliness? I don't think so; only a perverted Hole rendering of that lecture could come to this conclusion. It seems to me that that lecture was talking about sexuality divorced from love, perhaps in the way evidenced in ongoing and recent news stories concerning paedophilia, the gang prostitution of young girls in the North of England, etc. Anyway, for someone who's read that lecture, without malice aforethought, the Hole responses to it are very similar to the anti-Semitic hate speech over at such sites as Jew Watch. How can Hole people spend years concerning themselves with hate and trivia like this? Is it some kind of crusade Diana's on, spreading the light of atheism into the dark, fundie corners of spiritual belief? When I first came across the Hole I said to its denizens that spending their waking hours focusing on what they hated would be nothing but damaging to them...

              T.

              Ted Wrinch

              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "fs13997" <fs13997@...> wrote:
              >
              > It is always easy to dismiss those who lose and write history from the perspective of those who won. Yet, things are never black and white, and wwii makes no distinction.
              > This book was recently brought to my attention.
              >
              > http://www.amazon.com/Crimes-Mercies-Civilians-Occupation-1944-1950/dp/0751522775
              >
            • fs13997
              How would anyone, meaning the critics and not limited to them, really react being there and seeing those people, those who deserved it, being slayed in any
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 25, 2011
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                How would anyone, meaning the critics and not limited to them, really react being there and seeing those people, those 'who deserved it," being slayed in any possible manner by the Red Army, just to mention one example, or in the manner described in this book. It is too easy to make certain statements while being at home and writing on a list. Otherwise, if one is really filled with hatred it would be at least understandable, because they would lower themselves at the same level of those they accuse. it is easy to hate, it is difficult to overcome the spirit of aversion.

                Regarding the lecture, if certain forces are not directed toward the spiritual, for example, through meditation, those forces, new forces coming flowing from the spiritual world, flowing as more powerful forces of the Self, but not met with an adequate development of our consciousness, then those forces get corrupted and operate in the opposite direction. We should blame only ourselves for our failure to develop our consciousness in the manner expected by the spiritual, not the consequence of this failure, whatever behavioral form they may take. The effect should not be confused with the cause. And we should never blame anyone but ourselves.

                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
                >
                > I think that this is an interesting and sad topic, part of the woe and barbarity of the C20. And it's interesting to see the vilification that the author has received for attempting to bring this material to light. Still, I think that many people would end up saying 'what's bad about a few million Germans less in the world' or 'they deserved it' - and, relative to two world wars and the millions of non German lives lost as a consequence, one can almost understand the perspective of such a point of view.
                >
                > Meanwhile, feel the hate over in WC as Diana and co discuss 'The work of the angels in man's astral body' under their continuing title of 'The love that dare not speak its name' (the term for homosexuality used in Oscar Wilde's trial)
                >
                > Introduction to the lecture:
                >
                > "Something would enter into people's blood as a
                > consequence of sexual life that would above all make people go against
                > brotherliness on Earth rather than develop brotherliness."
                >
                > Diana: "I am out of time so cannot ramble in my usual fashion about the seemingly
                > endless ways in which this material appalls me, but I'm sure I'm not the only
                > one."
                >
                > Tom: "I had forgotten that this is the one lecture
                > where Anthros can pinpoint Steiner's attitude toward homosexuality now, since he
                > was predicting the future here. And with the sentence about something entering
                > the blood as a result of this perverted sexual activity — well, that's obviously
                > the AIDS virus spread by gay men."
                >
                > AIDS and homosexuality lead to lack of brotherliness? I don't think so; only a perverted Hole rendering of that lecture could come to this conclusion. It seems to me that that lecture was talking about sexuality divorced from love, perhaps in the way evidenced in ongoing and recent news stories concerning paedophilia, the gang prostitution of young girls in the North of England, etc. Anyway, for someone who's read that lecture, without malice aforethought, the Hole responses to it are very similar to the anti-Semitic hate speech over at such sites as Jew Watch. How can Hole people spend years concerning themselves with hate and trivia like this? Is it some kind of crusade Diana's on, spreading the light of atheism into the dark, fundie corners of spiritual belief? When I first came across the Hole I said to its denizens that spending their waking hours focusing on what they hated would be nothing but damaging to them...
                >
                > T.
                >
                > Ted Wrinch
                >
                > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "fs13997" <fs13997@> wrote:
                > >
                > > It is always easy to dismiss those who lose and write history from the perspective of those who won. Yet, things are never black and white, and wwii makes no distinction.
                > > This book was recently brought to my attention.
                > >
                > > http://www.amazon.com/Crimes-Mercies-Civilians-Occupation-1944-1950/dp/0751522775
                > >
                >
              • Kim Graae Munch
                You know that children only teases children who is teasable; Diana & Co is so bored with their petty lives and this is their only fun in life, and it s
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 26, 2011
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                  You know that children only teases children who is teasable; Diana & Co is so bored with their petty lives and this is their only fun in life, and it's depending on people who are teasable.

                  You are right concerning the lack of love. When lacking love you try to fill the emptiness with sexuality, but it's impossible to fill the whole longer than the act, each times the whole becomes bigger, and the sexual experimenting becomes more extreme, and the ego becomes weaker and weaker, which is connected with the blood. Pedophilia is an symptom of a weak ego, they are too weak and empty of love to have a normal love life with an equal and some even of the opposite sex.

                  AIDS is primarily a heterosexual disease as it's largest spreading is in Africa only to a lesser degree in the western countries. Homosexuality is not a problem in itself, it's just a stage as much other in the human life, it's only when things become extreme it becomes a problem, when you think down into a whole, and can't get up again.

                  Kim

                  --- Den lør 26/2/11 skrev fs13997 <fs13997@...>:

                  Fra: fs13997 <fs13997@...>
                  Emne: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Hate group?
                  Til: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                  Dato: lørdag 26. februar 2011 08.03

                   

                  How would anyone, meaning the critics and not limited to them, really react being there and seeing those people, those 'who deserved it," being slayed in any possible manner by the Red Army, just to mention one example, or in the manner described in this book. It is too easy to make certain statements while being at home and writing on a list. Otherwise, if one is really filled with hatred it would be at least understandable, because they would lower themselves at the same level of those they accuse. it is easy to hate, it is difficult to overcome the spirit of aversion.

                  Regarding the lecture, if certain forces are not directed toward the spiritual, for example, through meditation, those forces, new forces coming flowing from the spiritual world, flowing as more powerful forces of the Self, but not met with an adequate development of our consciousness, then those forces get corrupted and operate in the opposite direction. We should blame only ourselves for our failure to develop our consciousness in the manner expected by the spiritual, not the consequence of this failure, whatever behavioral form they may take. The effect should not be confused with the cause. And we should never blame anyone but ourselves.

                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I think that this is an interesting and sad topic, part of the woe and barbarity of the C20. And it's interesting to see the vilification that the author has received for attempting to bring this material to light. Still, I think that many people would end up saying 'what's bad about a few million Germans less in the world' or 'they deserved it' - and, relative to two world wars and the millions of non German lives lost as a consequence, one can almost understand the perspective of such a point of view.
                  >
                  > Meanwhile, feel the hate over in WC as Diana and co discuss 'The work of the angels in man's astral body' under their continuing title of 'The love that dare not speak its name' (the term for homosexuality used in Oscar Wilde's trial)
                  >
                  > Introduction to the lecture:
                  >
                  > "Something would enter into people's blood as a
                  > consequence of sexual life that would above all make people go against
                  > brotherliness on Earth rather than develop brotherliness."
                  >
                  > Diana: "I am out of time so cannot ramble in my usual fashion about the seemingly
                  > endless ways in which this material appalls me, but I'm sure I'm not the only
                  > one."
                  >
                  > Tom: "I had forgotten that this is the one lecture
                  > where Anthros can pinpoint Steiner's attitude toward homosexuality now, since he
                  > was predicting the future here. And with the sentence about something entering
                  > the blood as a result of this perverted sexual activity — well, that's obviously
                  > the AIDS virus spread by gay men."
                  >
                  > AIDS and homosexuality lead to lack of brotherliness? I don't think so; only a perverted Hole rendering of that lecture could come to this conclusion. It seems to me that that lecture was talking about sexuality divorced from love, perhaps in the way evidenced in ongoing and recent news stories concerning paedophilia, the gang prostitution of young girls in the North of England, etc. Anyway, for someone who's read that lecture, without malice aforethought, the Hole responses to it are very similar to the anti-Semitic hate speech over at such sites as Jew Watch. How can Hole people spend years concerning themselves with hate and trivia like this? Is it some kind of crusade Diana's on, spreading the light of atheism into the dark, fundie corners of spiritual belief? When I first came across the Hole I said to its denizens that spending their waking hours focusing on what they hated would be nothing but damaging to them...
                  >
                  > T.
                  >
                  > Ted Wrinch
                  >
                  > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "fs13997" <fs13997@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > It is always easy to dismiss those who lose and write history from the perspective of those who won. Yet, things are never black and white, and wwii makes no distinction.
                  > > This book was recently brought to my attention.
                  > >
                  > > http://www.amazon.com/Crimes-Mercies-Civilians-Occupation-1944-1950/dp/0751522775
                  > >
                  >


                • ted.wrinch
                  …if one is really filled with hatred it would be at least understandable, because they would lower themselves at the same level of those they accuse. Which
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 26, 2011
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                    "…if one is really filled with hatred it would be at least understandable, because they would lower themselves at the same level of those they accuse."

                    Which has been the case for much of the wars of the C20.


                    Thanks Kim,

                    I know, but there's a part of me that's still stuck in playground mode. It's funny isn't it: I - I hope - and Diana are intelligent people, but it takes more than intelligence to become a mature human being. It seems to take me time to see through to the pettiness that otherwise intelligent people are willing to fill their lives with. And, for a time, I had hoped that discussion with such people could be beneficial (I can see now that it's a waste of time).

                    Succinctly and well put! I agree with your development of my analysis. When paedophilia began hitting the news in this country, a decade and a half or so ago, I really found it hard to understand how such a thing could even exist, mostly because I still remembered my own childhood as a time of beauty and innocence. But your account puts into words the understanding that I have been trying to wrest from the phenomena.

                    I have wondered if homosexuality might even be an advancement from 'normal' sexuality (as long as, and as you've said, it doesn't go to extremes). After all, if sexuality is a provisional condition, part of the fall, and may be superseded in the future by a more inclusive and general love, then couldn't a love between individuals that is often beyond reproductive need be a purer one?

                    T.

                    Ted Wrinch


                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > You know that children only teases children who is teasable; Diana & Co is so bored with their petty lives and this is their only fun in life, and it's depending on people who are teasable.
                    >
                    > You are right concerning the lack of love. When lacking love you try to fill the emptiness with sexuality, but it's impossible to fill the whole longer than the act, each times the whole becomes bigger, and the sexual experimenting becomes more extreme, and the ego becomes weaker and weaker, which is connected with the blood. Pedophilia is an symptom of a weak ego, they are too weak and empty of love to have a normal love life with an equal and some even of the opposite sex.
                    >
                    > AIDS is primarily a heterosexual disease as it's largest spreading is in Africa only to a lesser degree in the western countries. Homosexuality is not a problem in itself, it's just a stage as much other in the human life, it's only when things become extreme it becomes a problem, when you think down into a whole, and can't get up again.
                    >
                    > Kim
                    >
                    > --- Den lør 26/2/11 skrev fs13997 <fs13997@...>:
                    >
                    > Fra: fs13997 <fs13997@...>
                    > Emne: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Hate group?
                    > Til: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                    > Dato: lørdag 26. februar 2011 08.03
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > How would anyone, meaning the critics and not limited to them, really react being there and seeing those people, those 'who deserved it," being slayed in any possible manner by the Red Army, just to mention one example, or in the manner described in this book. It is too easy to make certain statements while being at home and writing on a list. Otherwise, if one is really filled with hatred it would be at least understandable, because they would lower themselves at the same level of those they accuse. it is easy to hate, it is difficult to overcome the spirit of aversion.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Regarding the lecture, if certain forces are not directed toward the spiritual, for example, through meditation, those forces, new forces coming flowing from the spiritual world, flowing as more powerful forces of the Self, but not met with an adequate development of our consciousness, then those forces get corrupted and operate in the opposite direction. We should blame only ourselves for our failure to develop our consciousness in the manner expected by the spiritual, not the consequence of this failure, whatever behavioral form they may take. The effect should not be confused with the cause. And we should never blame anyone but ourselves.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > I think that this is an interesting and sad topic, part of the woe and barbarity of the C20. And it's interesting to see the vilification that the author has received for attempting to bring this material to light. Still, I think that many people would end up saying 'what's bad about a few million Germans less in the world' or 'they deserved it' - and, relative to two world wars and the millions of non German lives lost as a consequence, one can almost understand the perspective of such a point of view.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Meanwhile, feel the hate over in WC as Diana and co discuss 'The work of the angels in man's astral body' under their continuing title of 'The love that dare not speak its name' (the term for homosexuality used in Oscar Wilde's trial)
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Introduction to the lecture:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > "Something would enter into people's blood as a
                    >
                    > > consequence of sexual life that would above all make people go against
                    >
                    > > brotherliness on Earth rather than develop brotherliness."
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Diana: "I am out of time so cannot ramble in my usual fashion about the seemingly
                    >
                    > > endless ways in which this material appalls me, but I'm sure I'm not the only
                    >
                    > > one."
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Tom: "I had forgotten that this is the one lecture
                    >
                    > > where Anthros can pinpoint Steiner's attitude toward homosexuality now, since he
                    >
                    > > was predicting the future here. And with the sentence about something entering
                    >
                    > > the blood as a result of this perverted sexual activity â€" well, that's obviously
                    >
                    > > the AIDS virus spread by gay men."
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > AIDS and homosexuality lead to lack of brotherliness? I don't think so; only a perverted Hole rendering of that lecture could come to this conclusion. It seems to me that that lecture was talking about sexuality divorced from love, perhaps in the way evidenced in ongoing and recent news stories concerning paedophilia, the gang prostitution of young girls in the North of England, etc. Anyway, for someone who's read that lecture, without malice aforethought, the Hole responses to it are very similar to the anti-Semitic hate speech over at such sites as Jew Watch. How can Hole people spend years concerning themselves with hate and trivia like this? Is it some kind of crusade Diana's on, spreading the light of atheism into the dark, fundie corners of spiritual belief? When I first came across the Hole I said to its denizens that spending their waking hours focusing on what they hated would be nothing but damaging to them...
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > T.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Ted Wrinch
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "fs13997" <fs13997@> wrote:
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > It is always easy to dismiss those who lose and write history from the perspective of those who won. Yet, things are never black and white, and wwii makes no distinction.
                    >
                    > > > This book was recently brought to my attention.
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > http://www.amazon.com/Crimes-Mercies-Civilians-Occupation-1944-1950/dp/0751522775
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Kim Graae Munch
                    As long as you see it as genuine fun I presume that you learn something, but when it s no fun any longer, don t stay by habit. If you can find something which
                    Message 9 of 18 , Feb 26, 2011
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                      Message
                      As long as you see it as genuine fun I presume that you learn something, but when it's no fun any longer, don't stay by habit. If you can find something which is more fun with more content I think it would be better, but I don't think it's fully waste of time. A friend of mine who used some time down there had a dream: jumping in a trampoline; which means using a lot of energy without getting anywhere.
                       
                      Homosexuality had in old days another function than today, fe Alexander the Great had homosexual relations just as Heracles/Hercules is known to have. The reason was that sexual relationships between the sexes were fully for reproduction, even seen as something holy, where relations between men were seen as pure fun, nobody thought about marriage between the same sex at that time.
                       
                      The relation between the sexes has changed, now it is no longer reproduction that is the primary goal, now it is the union of the sexes that is the goal, and it is part of the ultimate initiation.
                       
                      Homosexuality today are not a single thing, it can be connected with the feeling of being in the wrong body, but also complexes in connection with the opposite sex, or simply so large a lack of love that few woman can cope with the physical needs, or combinations of especially the last two. But however you see it, there isn't anything special about homosexuality, and it's difficult to understand all that fuzz there have been about it in the previous times, but it may have been part of stopping the old praxis and reorient toward love between the two sexes.
                       
                      When you stand in front of a woman and takes her hands in yours, that is, left hand (+) in her right (-) and right hand (-) in her left (+), then you build an etheric circuit together, a circle. It has some consequences on other configurations:)
                       
                      Kim

                      etherstreams

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ted.wrinch
                      Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 2:28 PM
                      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: SV: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Hate group?

                       


                      "…if one is really filled with hatred it would be at least understandable, because they would lower themselves at the same level of those they accuse."

                      Which has been the case for much of the wars of the C20.

                      Thanks Kim,

                      I know, but there's a part of me that's still stuck in playground mode. It's funny isn't it: I - I hope - and Diana are intelligent people, but it takes more than intelligence to become a mature human being. It seems to take me time to see through to the pettiness that otherwise intelligent people are willing to fill their lives with. And, for a time, I had hoped that discussion with such people could be beneficial (I can see now that it's a waste of time).

                      Succinctly and well put! I agree with your development of my analysis. When paedophilia began hitting the news in this country, a decade and a half or so ago, I really found it hard to understand how such a thing could even exist, mostly because I still remembered my own childhood as a time of beauty and innocence. But your account puts into words the understanding that I have been trying to wrest from the phenomena.

                      I have wondered if homosexuality might even be an advancement from 'normal' sexuality (as long as, and as you've said, it doesn't go to extremes). After all, if sexuality is a provisional condition, part of the fall, and may be superseded in the future by a more inclusive and general love, then couldn't a love between individuals that is often beyond reproductive need be a purer one?

                      T.

                      Ted Wrinch

                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > You know that children only teases children who is teasable; Diana & Co is so bored with their petty lives and this is their only fun in life, and it's depending on people who are teasable.
                      >
                      > You are right concerning the lack of love. When lacking love you try to fill the emptiness with sexuality, but it's impossible to fill the whole longer than the act, each times the whole becomes bigger, and the sexual experimenting becomes more extreme, and the ego becomes weaker and weaker, which is connected with the blood. Pedophilia is an symptom of a weak ego, they are too weak and empty of love to have a normal love life with an equal and some even of the opposite sex.
                      >
                      > AIDS is primarily a heterosexual disease as it's largest spreading is in Africa only to a lesser degree in the western countries. Homosexuality is not a problem in itself, it's just a stage as much other in the human life, it's only when things become extreme it becomes a problem, when you think down into a whole, and can't get up again.
                      >
                      > Kim
                      >
                      > --- Den lør 26/2/11 skrev fs13997 <fs13997@...>:
                      >
                      > Fra: fs13997 <fs13997@...>
                      > Emne: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Hate group?
                      > Til: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                      > Dato: lørdag 26. februar 2011 08.03
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > How would anyone, meaning the critics and not limited to them, really react being there and seeing those people, those 'who deserved it," being slayed in any possible manner by the Red Army, just to mention one example, or in the manner described in this book. It is too easy to make certain statements while being at home and writing on a list. Otherwise, if one is really filled with hatred it would be at least understandable, because they would lower themselves at the same level of those they accuse. it is easy to hate, it is difficult to overcome the spirit of aversion.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Regarding the lecture, if certain forces are not directed toward the spiritual, for example, through meditation, those forces, new forces coming flowing from the spiritual world, flowing as more powerful forces of the Self, but not met with an adequate development of our consciousness, then those forces get corrupted and operate in the opposite direction. We should blame only ourselves for our failure to develop our consciousness in the manner expected by the spiritual, not the consequence of this failure, whatever behavioral form they may take. The effect should not be confused with the cause. And we should never blame anyone but ourselves.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > I think that this is an interesting and sad topic, part of the woe and barbarity of the C20. And it's interesting to see the vilification that the author has received for attempting to bring this material to light. Still, I think that many people would end up saying 'what's bad about a few million Germans less in the world' or 'they deserved it' - and, relative to two world wars and the millions of non German lives lost as a consequence, one can almost understand the perspective of such a point of view.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Meanwhile, feel the hate over in WC as Diana and co discuss 'The work of the angels in man's astral body' under their continuing title of 'The love that dare not speak its name' (the term for homosexuality used in Oscar Wilde's trial)
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Introduction to the lecture:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > "Something would enter into people's blood as a
                      >
                      > > consequence of sexual life that would above all make people go against
                      >
                      > > brotherliness on Earth rather than develop brotherliness."
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Diana: "I am out of time so cannot ramble in my usual fashion about the seemingly
                      >
                      > > endless ways in which this material appalls me, but I'm sure I'm not the only
                      >
                      > > one."
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Tom: "I had forgotten that this is the one lecture
                      >
                      > > where Anthros can pinpoint Steiner's attitude toward homosexuality now, since he
                      >
                      > > was predicting the future here. And with the sentence about something entering
                      >
                      > > the blood as a result of this perverted sexual activity â€" well, that's obviously
                      >
                      > > the AIDS virus spread by gay men."
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > AIDS and homosexuality lead to lack of brotherliness? I don't think so; only a perverted Hole rendering of that lecture could come to this conclusion. It seems to me that that lecture was talking about sexuality divorced from love, perhaps in the way evidenced in ongoing and recent news stories concerning paedophilia, the gang prostitution of young girls in the North of England, etc. Anyway, for someone who's read that lecture, without malice aforethought, the Hole responses to it are very similar to the anti-Semitic hate speech over at such sites as Jew Watch. How can Hole people spend years concerning themselves with hate and trivia like this? Is it some kind of crusade Diana's on, spreading the light of atheism into the dark, fundie corners of spiritual belief? When I first came across the Hole I said to its denizens that spending their waking hours focusing on what they hated would be nothing but damaging to them...
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > T.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Ted Wrinch
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "fs13997" <fs13997@> wrote:
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > It is always easy to dismiss those who lose and write history from the perspective of those who won. Yet, things are never black and white, and wwii makes no distinction.
                      >
                      > > > This book was recently brought to my attention.
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > http://www.amazon.com/Crimes-Mercies-Civilians-Occupation-1944-1950/dp/0751522775
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >

                    • ted.wrinch
                      Well, it has on occasion been fun, but mostly not. It s not quite normal to have to insult your interlocutor, to counter the insults you receive from him, in
                      Message 10 of 18 , Feb 26, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Well, it has on occasion been fun, but mostly not. It's not quite normal to have to insult your interlocutor, to counter the insults you receive from him, in order to progress an argument. But I agree it's not been a complete waste of time :).

                        You're right about the Greeks, and male-male, pederastic love was an important, initiatory part of their civic culture. This was a referent for Oscar Wilde in his trial concerning the 'love that dare not speak its name'. It was regarded as the freest love, as long as it wasn't mediated by money. But ancient Greece was a male orientated society and womens' roles were circumscribed to an extent that seems extreme to us now. An ancient Greek's view of women was ambivalent: they were the source of society's continuity, but also creatures of chaos and weak logic. The ideal of a helpmeet and friend, that we now hold to be important in the relations between the sexes, was not one the Greeks held, where the highest status women, the wives, were primarily expected to run the family and produce heirs for the male of the household (they only became full household members when they became mothers). But it may be, as you say, that there was a kind of holiness in the union between the sexes and childbirth as both events were commonly celebrated with religious rites.

                        I think that it's clear from the above that the relations between the sexes and between the same sexes have changed and, as we've said, we feel are evolving towards a supra-sexual union, towards 'the androgen', as my Leeds educated philosopher friend calls it (or maybe the 'new Adam' could be another term; better yet, the new Eve, as I see the eternal feminine taking an ever larger role in the future)!

                        Your points on the various kinds of homosexuality sound fair enough and seem to reflect the complexity and multifarious nature of sexuality in general. You could be right about the relatively recent historical promotion of heterosexuality, with prohibition against homosexuality, creating a focus on different sex love.

                        Like the union at the altar, 'with this ring, I thee wed' - gold and etheric in union. I like it!

                        T.

                        Ted Wrinch

                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim Graae Munch" <kimgm@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > As long as you see it as genuine fun I presume that you learn something, but when it's no fun any longer, don't stay by habit. If you can find something which is more fun with more content I think it would be better, but I don't think it's fully waste of time. A friend of mine who used some time down there had a dream: jumping in a trampoline; which means using a lot of energy without getting anywhere.
                        >
                        > Homosexuality had in old days another function than today, fe Alexander the Great had homosexual relations just as Heracles/Hercules is known to have. The reason was that sexual relationships between the sexes were fully for reproduction, even seen as something holy, where relations between men were seen as pure fun, nobody thought about marriage between the same sex at that time.
                        >
                        > The relation between the sexes has changed, now it is no longer reproduction that is the primary goal, now it is the union of the sexes that is the goal, and it is part of the ultimate initiation.
                        >
                        > Homosexuality today are not a single thing, it can be connected with the feeling of being in the wrong body, but also complexes in connection with the opposite sex, or simply so large a lack of love that few woman can cope with the physical needs, or combinations of especially the last two. But however you see it, there isn't anything special about homosexuality, and it's difficult to understand all that fuzz there have been about it in the previous times, but it may have been part of stopping the old praxis and reorient toward love between the two sexes.
                        >
                        > When you stand in front of a woman and takes her hands in yours, that is, left hand (+) in her right (-) and right hand (-) in her left (+), then you build an etheric circuit together, a circle. It has some consequences on other configurations:)
                        >
                        > Kim
                        > <http://kimgraaemunch.wordpress.com/2008/09/29/serpents-of-the-kundalini-fire/> etherstreams
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ted.wrinch
                        > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 2:28 PM
                        > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: SV: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Hate group?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > "…if one is really filled with hatred it would be at least understandable, because they would lower themselves at the same level of those they accuse."
                        >
                        > Which has been the case for much of the wars of the C20.
                        >
                        > Thanks Kim,
                        >
                        > I know, but there's a part of me that's still stuck in playground mode. It's funny isn't it: I - I hope - and Diana are intelligent people, but it takes more than intelligence to become a mature human being. It seems to take me time to see through to the pettiness that otherwise intelligent people are willing to fill their lives with. And, for a time, I had hoped that discussion with such people could be beneficial (I can see now that it's a waste of time).
                        >
                        > Succinctly and well put! I agree with your development of my analysis. When paedophilia began hitting the news in this country, a decade and a half or so ago, I really found it hard to understand how such a thing could even exist, mostly because I still remembered my own childhood as a time of beauty and innocence. But your account puts into words the understanding that I have been trying to wrest from the phenomena.
                        >
                        > I have wondered if homosexuality might even be an advancement from 'normal' sexuality (as long as, and as you've said, it doesn't go to extremes). After all, if sexuality is a provisional condition, part of the fall, and may be superseded in the future by a more inclusive and general love, then couldn't a love between individuals that is often beyond reproductive need be a purer one?
                        >
                        > T.
                        >
                        > Ted Wrinch
                        >
                        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> , Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > You know that children only teases children who is teasable; Diana & Co is so bored with their petty lives and this is their only fun in life, and it's depending on people who are teasable.
                        > >
                        > > You are right concerning the lack of love. When lacking love you try to fill the emptiness with sexuality, but it's impossible to fill the whole longer than the act, each times the whole becomes bigger, and the sexual experimenting becomes more extreme, and the ego becomes weaker and weaker, which is connected with the blood. Pedophilia is an symptom of a weak ego, they are too weak and empty of love to have a normal love life with an equal and some even of the opposite sex.
                        > >
                        > > AIDS is primarily a heterosexual disease as it's largest spreading is in Africa only to a lesser degree in the western countries. Homosexuality is not a problem in itself, it's just a stage as much other in the human life, it's only when things become extreme it becomes a problem, when you think down into a whole, and can't get up again.
                        > >
                        > > Kim
                        > >
                        > > --- Den lør 26/2/11 skrev fs13997 <fs13997@>:
                        > >
                        > > Fra: fs13997 <fs13997@>
                        > > Emne: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Hate group?
                        > > Til: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Dato: lørdag 26. februar 2011 08.03
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Â
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > How would anyone, meaning the critics and not limited to them, really react being there and seeing those people, those 'who deserved it," being slayed in any possible manner by the Red Army, just to mention one example, or in the manner described in this book. It is too easy to make certain statements while being at home and writing on a list. Otherwise, if one is really filled with hatred it would be at least understandable, because they would lower themselves at the same level of those they accuse. it is easy to hate, it is difficult to overcome the spirit of aversion.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Regarding the lecture, if certain forces are not directed toward the spiritual, for example, through meditation, those forces, new forces coming flowing from the spiritual world, flowing as more powerful forces of the Self, but not met with an adequate development of our consciousness, then those forces get corrupted and operate in the opposite direction. We should blame only ourselves for our failure to develop our consciousness in the manner expected by the spiritual, not the consequence of this failure, whatever behavioral form they may take. The effect should not be confused with the cause. And we should never blame anyone but ourselves.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> , "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > I think that this is an interesting and sad topic, part of the woe and barbarity of the C20. And it's interesting to see the vilification that the author has received for attempting to bring this material to light. Still, I think that many people would end up saying 'what's bad about a few million Germans less in the world' or 'they deserved it' - and, relative to two world wars and the millions of non German lives lost as a consequence, one can almost understand the perspective of such a point of view.
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > Meanwhile, feel the hate over in WC as Diana and co discuss 'The work of the angels in man's astral body' under their continuing title of 'The love that dare not speak its name' (the term for homosexuality used in Oscar Wilde's trial)
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > Introduction to the lecture:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > "Something would enter into people's blood as a
                        > >
                        > > > consequence of sexual life that would above all make people go against
                        > >
                        > > > brotherliness on Earth rather than develop brotherliness."
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > Diana: "I am out of time so cannot ramble in my usual fashion about the seemingly
                        > >
                        > > > endless ways in which this material appalls me, but I'm sure I'm not the only
                        > >
                        > > > one."
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > Tom: "I had forgotten that this is the one lecture
                        > >
                        > > > where Anthros can pinpoint Steiner's attitude toward homosexuality now, since he
                        > >
                        > > > was predicting the future here. And with the sentence about something entering
                        > >
                        > > > the blood as a result of this perverted sexual activity â€" well, that's obviously
                        > >
                        > > > the AIDS virus spread by gay men."
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > AIDS and homosexuality lead to lack of brotherliness? I don't think so; only a perverted Hole rendering of that lecture could come to this conclusion. It seems to me that that lecture was talking about sexuality divorced from love, perhaps in the way evidenced in ongoing and recent news stories concerning paedophilia, the gang prostitution of young girls in the North of England, etc. Anyway, for someone who's read that lecture, without malice aforethought, the Hole responses to it are very similar to the anti-Semitic hate speech over at such sites as Jew Watch. How can Hole people spend years concerning themselves with hate and trivia like this? Is it some kind of crusade Diana's on, spreading the light of atheism into the dark, fundie corners of spiritual belief? When I first came across the Hole I said to its denizens that spending their waking hours focusing on what they hated would be nothing but damaging to them...
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > T.
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > Ted Wrinch
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> , "fs13997" <fs13997@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > >
                        > >
                        > > > > It is always easy to dismiss those who lose and write history from the perspective of those who won. Yet, things are never black and white, and wwii makes no distinction.
                        > >
                        > > > > This book was recently brought to my attention.
                        > >
                        > > > >
                        > >
                        > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Crimes-Mercies-Civilians-Occupation-1944-1950/dp/0751522775
                        > >
                        > > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Frank Thomas Smith
                        ... _____________ Yes, but Plato (as Socrates) in his The Republic states that women are the equals of men in all things except physical strength, and even
                        Message 11 of 18 , Feb 27, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > You're right about the Greeks, and male-male, pederastic love was an important, initiatory part of their civic culture. This was a referent for Oscar Wilde in his trial concerning the 'love that dare not speak its name'. It was regarded as the freest love, as long as it wasn't mediated by money. But ancient Greece was a male orientated society and womens' roles were circumscribed to an extent that seems extreme to us now. An ancient Greek's view of women was ambivalent: they were the source of society's continuity, but also creatures of chaos and weak logic. The ideal of a helpmeet and friend, that we now hold to be important in the relations between the sexes, was not one the Greeks held, where the highest status women, the wives, were primarily expected to run the family and produce heirs for the male of the household (they only became full household members when they became mothers). But it may be, as you say, that there was a kind of holiness in the union between the sexes and childbirth as both events were commonly celebrated with religious rites.
                          _____________

                          Yes, but Plato (as Socrates) in his "The Republic" states that women are the equals of men in all things except physical strength, and even allows them to participate as soldierly guardians of society. This was in total contradiction to society's norms at the time.
                          Frank
                        • ted.wrinch
                          Bien sur, Frank. The great Socrates always was his society s gadfly, and perhaps millennia ahead of them in some ways. T. Ted Wrinch
                          Message 12 of 18 , Feb 27, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Bien sur, Frank.

                            The great Socrates always was his society's gadfly, and perhaps millennia ahead of them in some ways.

                            T.

                            Ted Wrinch


                            > Yes, but Plato (as Socrates) in his "The Republic" states that women are the equals of men in all things except physical strength, and even allows them to participate as soldierly guardians of society. This was in total contradiction to society's norms at the time.
                            > Frank
                            >
                          • Charlie
                            The greatest privileges for women in classical Greece went to the prostitutes and priestesses - let s not forget that the Pythia of Delphi was in many respects
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 3, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              The greatest privileges for women in classical Greece went to the prostitutes and priestesses - let's not forget that the Pythia of Delphi was in many respects the most powerful person in their world, even if a lot of it was just ceremonial, while Hetarai had the run of the town. Also in Sparta women enjoyed far more relative equality than in other states, though admittedly in general women were kept well under the thumb of their males. A lot of it was due to psychological fear of female sexuality, which was considered to be dark, destructive, pathological and uncontrollable. This is despite the fact the Eleusinian Mysteries, (cult of Demeter) led the religious way along with Delphian Apollo....

                              Perhaps it was an adverse reaction to earlier cultures that were founded on goddess worship, Isis, Ishtar, etc?

                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <fts.trasla@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > You're right about the Greeks, and male-male, pederastic love was an important, initiatory part of their civic culture. This was a referent for Oscar Wilde in his trial concerning the 'love that dare not speak its name'. It was regarded as the freest love, as long as it wasn't mediated by money. But ancient Greece was a male orientated society and womens' roles were circumscribed to an extent that seems extreme to us now. An ancient Greek's view of women was ambivalent: they were the source of society's continuity, but also creatures of chaos and weak logic. The ideal of a helpmeet and friend, that we now hold to be important in the relations between the sexes, was not one the Greeks held, where the highest status women, the wives, were primarily expected to run the family and produce heirs for the male of the household (they only became full household members when they became mothers). But it may be, as you say, that there was a kind of holiness in the union between the sexes and childbirth as both events were commonly celebrated with religious rites.
                              > _____________
                              >
                              > Yes, but Plato (as Socrates) in his "The Republic" states that women are the equals of men in all things except physical strength, and even allows them to participate as soldierly guardians of society. This was in total contradiction to society's norms at the time.
                              > Frank
                              >
                            • ted.wrinch
                              Women did hold a more equal position in Sparta, being allowed to hold property - perhaps because so many Spartan men were so often away at battle - and
                              Message 14 of 18 , Mar 5, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Women did hold a more equal position in Sparta, being allowed to hold property - perhaps because so many Spartan men were so often away at battle - and exercise naked in the gym, in the way the men were used to doing. I don't think that a hetaera held the same status as a free born Greek mother, being often a foreigner or ex-slave; but she would certainly have often been treated with respect, sometimes as an equal. Priestesses were held in the highest regard, as were, obviously, the female members of the Greek pantheon.

                                I would expect that the fear was that of the unknown, that reality lay deeper than the logic of the symposia. I don't know if Ishtar would have been a part of that - the Babylonian pantheon takes us to a time very remote from our own.

                                T.

                                Ted Wrinch

                                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie" <charlottecowell@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > The greatest privileges for women in classical Greece went to the prostitutes and priestesses - let's not forget that the Pythia of Delphi was in many respects the most powerful person in their world, even if a lot of it was just ceremonial, while Hetarai had the run of the town. Also in Sparta women enjoyed far more relative equality than in other states, though admittedly in general women were kept well under the thumb of their males. A lot of it was due to psychological fear of female sexuality, which was considered to be dark, destructive, pathological and uncontrollable. This is despite the fact the Eleusinian Mysteries, (cult of Demeter) led the religious way along with Delphian Apollo....
                                >
                                > Perhaps it was an adverse reaction to earlier cultures that were founded on goddess worship, Isis, Ishtar, etc?
                                >
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