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  • elfuncle
    http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090215p01.html Where knowledge exists, knowledge is imparted and there is no particular desire for discussion. Where there
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 6, 2010
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      http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090215p01.html

      "Where knowledge exists, knowledge is imparted and there is no particular desire for discussion. Where there is desire for discussion, however. there is as a rule no knowledge of the truth. Discussion begins only when there is a lack of knowledge, and it is always and everywhere the sign of a decline regarding the seriousness of a subject when it is discussed. Disintegration of a particular trend is always proclaimed by discussions. It is important that in spiritual science we come increasingly to understand that the wish for discussion may really be taken as a sign of ignorance. On the other hand, the opposite of discussion, the will to learn, the will gradually to comprehend what is in question, should be cultivated."

      ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Christianity in Human Evolution, Avatar Beings, Berlin 5th February, 1909, GA 109)

      Tarjei
    • val2160
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwTJXHNP0bg ... particular desire for discussion. Where there is desire for
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 6, 2010
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        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
        >
        > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090215p01.html
        >
        > "Where knowledge exists, knowledge is imparted and there is no particular desire for discussion. Where there is desire for discussion, however. there is as a rule no knowledge of the truth. Discussion begins only when there is a lack of knowledge, and it is always and everywhere the sign of a decline regarding the seriousness of a subject when it is discussed. Disintegration of a particular trend is always proclaimed by discussions. It is important that in spiritual science we come increasingly to understand that the wish for discussion may really be taken as a sign of ignorance. On the other hand, the opposite of discussion, the will to learn, the will gradually to comprehend what is in question, should be cultivated."
        >
        > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Christianity in Human Evolution, Avatar Beings, Berlin 5th February, 1909, GA 109)
        >
        > Tarjei
        >
      • elfuncle
        Fantastic, Val! Frank, you ve got to share this down below, to help those folks toward deeper self-knowledge. Tarjei
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 6, 2010
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          Fantastic, Val! Frank, you've got to share this down below, to help those folks toward deeper self-knowledge.

          Tarjei

          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "val2160" <wdenval@...> wrote:
          >
          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwTJXHNP0bg
          > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwTJXHNP0bg>
          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090215p01.html
          > >
          > > "Where knowledge exists, knowledge is imparted and there is no
          > particular desire for discussion. Where there is desire for discussion,
          > however. there is as a rule no knowledge of the truth. Discussion begins
          > only when there is a lack of knowledge, and it is always and everywhere
          > the sign of a decline regarding the seriousness of a subject when it is
          > discussed. Disintegration of a particular trend is always proclaimed by
          > discussions. It is important that in spiritual science we come
          > increasingly to understand that the wish for discussion may really be
          > taken as a sign of ignorance. On the other hand, the opposite of
          > discussion, the will to learn, the will gradually to comprehend what is
          > in question, should be cultivated."
          > >
          > > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Christianity in Human Evolution, Avatar Beings,
          > Berlin 5th February, 1909, GA 109)
          > >
          > > Tarjei
          > >
          >
        • dottie zold
          You know we can take any paragraph out of the work and point to this or that and I think what he is really saying here is the idea of the Goethean
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 6, 2010
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            You know we can take any paragraph out of the work and point to this or that and I think what he is really saying here is the idea of the Goethean conversation, discussion, not that there is no discussion rather that it be as a 'listening into' the other not just a 'prove my point, prove your point' or we are talking past one another. Great discussion helps to advance understanding when we listen. If we are discussing to hear ourselves speak nothing is furthered and that is what I think he is speaking of here and in his work in this passage.
             
            All good things,
            Dottie

            "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



            --- On Wed, 10/6/10, elfuncle <elfuncle@...> wrote:

            From: elfuncle <elfuncle@...>
            Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] About discussions
            To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, October 6, 2010, 10:10 AM

            http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090215p01.html

            "Where knowledge exists, knowledge is imparted and there is no particular desire for discussion. Where there is desire for discussion, however. there is as a rule no knowledge of the truth. Discussion begins only when there is a lack of knowledge, and it is always and everywhere the sign of a decline regarding the seriousness of a subject when it is discussed. Disintegration of a particular trend is always proclaimed by discussions. It is important that in spiritual science we come increasingly to understand that the wish for discussion may really be taken as a sign of ignorance. On the other hand, the opposite of discussion, the will to learn, the will gradually to comprehend what is in question, should be cultivated."

            ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Christianity in Human Evolution, Avatar Beings, Berlin 5th February, 1909, GA 109)

            Tarjei



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          • elfuncle
            But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. ( -- Matthew 5:37)
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 6, 2010
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              "But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." ( -- Matthew 5:37)

              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
              >
              > You know we can take any paragraph out of the work and point to this or that and I think what he is really saying here is the idea of the Goethean conversation, discussion, not that there is no discussion rather that it be as a 'listening into' the other not just a 'prove my point, prove your point' or we are talking past one another. Great discussion helps to advance understanding when we listen. If we are discussing to hear ourselves speak nothing is furthered and that is what I think he is speaking of here and in his work in this passage.
              >  
              > All good things,
              > Dottie
              >
              >
              > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
              >
              >
              >
              > --- On Wed, 10/6/10, elfuncle <elfuncle@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: elfuncle <elfuncle@...>
              > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] About discussions
              > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Wednesday, October 6, 2010, 10:10 AM
              >
              >
              > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090215p01.html
              >
              > "Where knowledge exists, knowledge is imparted and there is no particular desire for discussion. Where there is desire for discussion, however. there is as a rule no knowledge of the truth. Discussion begins only when there is a lack of knowledge, and it is always and everywhere the sign of a decline regarding the seriousness of a subject when it is discussed. Disintegration of a particular trend is always proclaimed by discussions. It is important that in spiritual science we come increasingly to understand that the wish for discussion may really be taken as a sign of ignorance. On the other hand, the opposite of discussion, the will to learn, the will gradually to comprehend what is in question, should be cultivated."
              >
              > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Christianity in Human Evolution, Avatar Beings, Berlin 5th February, 1909, GA 109)
              >
              > Tarjei
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
            • dottie zold
              I m trusting you are not serious about no discussions or about taking a paragraph out of a body of work to suit ones own thoughts on the matter:)))   All good
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 6, 2010
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                I'm trusting you are not serious about no discussions or about taking a paragraph out of a body of work to suit ones own thoughts on the matter:)))
                 
                All good things,
                Dottie
                 
                p.s. Rudolf Steiner also shared that how we come to know each other in our karma is by this 'rubbing up against one another' .... I  am assuming he is not speaking of the  missionary position...that's what its called right???? I was writing 'mission' position :0

                "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                --- On Wed, 10/6/10, elfuncle <elfuncle@...> wrote:

                From: elfuncle <elfuncle@...>
                Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: About discussions
                To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, October 6, 2010, 1:06 PM

                "But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." ( -- Matthew 5:37)

                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                >
                > You know we can take any paragraph out of the work and point to this or that and I think what he is really saying here is the idea of the Goethean conversation, discussion, not that there is no discussion rather that it be as a 'listening into' the other not just a 'prove my point, prove your point' or we are talking past one another. Great discussion helps to advance understanding when we listen. If we are discussing to hear ourselves speak nothing is furthered and that is what I think he is speaking of here and in his work in this passage.
                >  
                > All good things,
                > Dottie
                >
                >
                > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
                >
                >
                >
                > --- On Wed, 10/6/10, elfuncle <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: elfuncle <elfuncle@...>
                > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] About discussions
                > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Wednesday, October 6, 2010, 10:10 AM
                >
                >
                > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090215p01.html
                >
                > "Where knowledge exists, knowledge is imparted and there is no particular desire for discussion. Where there is desire for discussion, however. there is as a rule no knowledge of the truth. Discussion begins only when there is a lack of knowledge, and it is always and everywhere the sign of a decline regarding the seriousness of a subject when it is discussed. Disintegration of a particular trend is always proclaimed by discussions. It is important that in spiritual science we come increasingly to understand that the wish for discussion may really be taken as a sign of ignorance. On the other hand, the opposite of discussion, the will to learn, the will gradually to comprehend what is in question, should be cultivated."
                >
                > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Christianity in Human Evolution, Avatar Beings, Berlin 5th February, 1909, GA 109)
                >
                > Tarjei
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >




                ------------------------------------

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                <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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              • elfuncle
                The fact that Jesus and Steiner and Uncle Taz all say no discussions, and perhaps Buddha too(?), doesn t mean that you and Ted and all the others can t discuss
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 6, 2010
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                  The fact that Jesus and Steiner and Uncle Taz all say no discussions, and perhaps Buddha too(?), doesn't mean that you and Ted and all the others can't discuss your brains out. I'm only saying that I don't discuss because you know I always live by the book and practice what I preach. All you'll get from me is Yea, yea and Nay, nay, 'cause that's what His Holiness (or His Uncleness) hath taught me. But if you ever need a yea or a nay, just ask and you shall receive, unless it's a trick question, in which case I will answer "No comment." This latter response commeth from evil according to Jesus, of course, but sometimes I have to resort to tricks I've learned from the Devil.

                  Tarjei

                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I'm trusting you are not serious about no discussions or about taking a paragraph out of a body of work to suit ones own thoughts on the matter:)))
                  >  
                  > All good things,
                  > Dottie
                  >  
                  > p.s. Rudolf Steiner also shared that how we come to know each other in our karma is by this 'rubbing up against one another' .... I  am assuming he is not speaking of the  missionary position...that's what its called right???? I was writing 'mission' position :0
                  >
                  >
                  > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- On Wed, 10/6/10, elfuncle <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: elfuncle <elfuncle@...>
                  > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: About discussions
                  > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Wednesday, October 6, 2010, 1:06 PM
                  >
                  >
                  > "But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." ( -- Matthew 5:37)
                  >
                  > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > You know we can take any paragraph out of the work and point to this or that and I think what he is really saying here is the idea of the Goethean conversation, discussion, not that there is no discussion rather that it be as a 'listening into' the other not just a 'prove my point, prove your point' or we are talking past one another. Great discussion helps to advance understanding when we listen. If we are discussing to hear ourselves speak nothing is furthered and that is what I think he is speaking of here and in his work in this passage.
                  > >  
                  > > All good things,
                  > > Dottie
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- On Wed, 10/6/10, elfuncle <elfuncle@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > From: elfuncle <elfuncle@>
                  > > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] About discussions
                  > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Date: Wednesday, October 6, 2010, 10:10 AM
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19090215p01.html
                  > >
                  > > "Where knowledge exists, knowledge is imparted and there is no particular desire for discussion. Where there is desire for discussion, however. there is as a rule no knowledge of the truth. Discussion begins only when there is a lack of knowledge, and it is always and everywhere the sign of a decline regarding the seriousness of a subject when it is discussed. Disintegration of a particular trend is always proclaimed by discussions. It is important that in spiritual science we come increasingly to understand that the wish for discussion may really be taken as a sign of ignorance. On the other hand, the opposite of discussion, the will to learn, the will gradually to comprehend what is in question, should be cultivated."
                  > >
                  > > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Christianity in Human Evolution, Avatar Beings, Berlin 5th February, 1909, GA 109)
                  > >
                  > > Tarjei
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                • val2160
                  ... and perhaps Buddha too(?), doesn t mean that you and Ted and all the others can t discuss your brains out. I m only saying that I don t discuss because you
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 6, 2010
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                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The fact that Jesus and Steiner and Uncle Taz all say no discussions, and perhaps Buddha too(?), doesn't mean that you and Ted and all the others can't discuss your brains out. I'm only saying that I don't discuss because you know I always live by the book and practice what I preach. All you'll get from me is Yea, yea and Nay, nay, 'cause that's what His Holiness (or His Uncleness) hath taught me. But if you ever need a yea or a nay, just ask and you shall receive, unless it's a trick question, in which case I will answer "No comment." This latter response commeth from evil according to Jesus, of course, but sometimes I have to resort to tricks I've learned from the Devil.
                    >
                    > Tarjei

                    Better than a thousand hollow words, is one word that brings peace.
                  • cripplekickstand
                    it is interesting to me that we are having a discussion about not having discussions. I ve found that discussions, rants, and showing one s rear in general
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 7, 2010
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                      it is interesting to me that we are having a discussion about not having discussions.

                      I've found that discussions, rants, and showing one's rear in general (especially in public forums) offers me a good chance for self-knowledge, with a bit of reflection...

                      -- Reid

                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "val2160" <wdenval@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > The fact that Jesus and Steiner and Uncle Taz all say no discussions,
                      > and perhaps Buddha too(?), doesn't mean that you and Ted and all the
                      > others can't discuss your brains out. I'm only saying that I don't
                      > discuss because you know I always live by the book and practice what I
                      > preach. All you'll get from me is Yea, yea and Nay, nay, 'cause that's
                      > what His Holiness (or His Uncleness) hath taught me. But if you ever
                      > need a yea or a nay, just ask and you shall receive, unless it's a trick
                      > question, in which case I will answer "No comment." This latter response
                      > commeth from evil according to Jesus, of course, but sometimes I have to
                      > resort to tricks I've learned from the Devil.
                      > >
                      > > Tarjei
                      >
                      > Better than a thousand hollow words, is one word that brings peace.
                      >
                    • elfuncle
                      ... having discussions. Yeah, and it s reverberating in the hole too, that anti-discussion quote by RS, and they re tearing their hairs out in frustration down
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 7, 2010
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                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "cripplekickstand" <reidward@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > it is interesting to me that we are having a discussion about not having discussions.


                        Yeah, and it's reverberating in the hole too, that anti-discussion quote by RS, and they're tearing their hairs out in frustration down below because they think it's so terrible that anthroposophists won't talk to them. So I don't know whether the "defenders of the faith" in the stinker have a mutual sado-masochistic relationship with the holefolks or if they desire to please them because they love them so much. There's a perv deep inside each and every one of us I guess.

                        Tarjei
                      • val2160
                        ... quote ... to ... There s ... http://books.google.com/books?id=0giWOrjkC_0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Ame
                        Message 11 of 13 , Oct 7, 2010
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                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "cripplekickstand"
                          > reidward@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > it is interesting to me that we are having a discussion about not
                          > having discussions.
                          >
                          > Yeah, and it's reverberating in the hole too, that anti-discussion quote
                          > by RS, and they're tearing their hairs out in frustration down below
                          > because they think it's so terrible that anthroposophists won't talk to
                          > them. So I don't know whether the "defenders of the faith" in the
                          > stinker have a mutual sado-masochistic relationship with the holefolks
                          > or if they desire to please them because they love them so much. There's
                          > a perv deep inside each and every one of us I guess.
                          >
                          > Tarjei

                        • ted.wrinch
                          Hi Taz, Well I don t know if you re including me as a defender of the faith but these days my focus is probably more on knocking out the bottom of the Toilet
                          Message 12 of 13 , Oct 7, 2010
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                            Hi Taz,

                            Well I don't know if you're including me as a 'defender of the faith' but these days my focus is probably more on knocking out the bottom of the Toilet of the demonic opposition than much defending. I mean, my defence of 'Steiner did not make contradictory statements about Ostwald and materialism' is probably not going to set many defenders' hearts aglow with fervour and ardour. But it's such an emotionally neutral-boring subject that it's been just great for showing up the Evil One's Satanic debating technique.

                            And there seems to me to be a middle way between the debate amongst those who don't know and the intimate union with Sophia and the Holy Spirt of those who really know and are probably getting their meds (meditations). Now I'm not good at spiritual meds and so I'm pretty much stuck with the fallible intellect and discussion as my path to Sophia's door (but I think I've made a little progress in the last 20 years, I'm pleased to say :)). After all, many of us have been given the gift of materialism to erase our spiritual knowledge and make us make the re-ascent, step by slow step for ourselves. And I've found that even the likes of Daniel Dennett, much derived by PS as an uber-materialist (but what does PS know about anything?), has over a lifetime of materialistic reflection come to some occasionally wise understandings (eg, unlike Douglas Hoffstadter, he does think that the Self exists in some sense and is important). So perhaps the difference is between those who don't know but discuss with a love of the truth and a desire to know versus those in the Pit Of Despair to where common sense, evidence and reason never reach.

                            T.

                            Ted Wrinch

                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "cripplekickstand"
                            > <reidward@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > it is interesting to me that we are having a discussion about not
                            > having discussions.
                            >
                            > Yeah, and it's reverberating in the hole too, that anti-discussion quote
                            > by RS, and they're tearing their hairs out in frustration down below
                            > because they think it's so terrible that anthroposophists won't talk to
                            > them. So I don't know whether the "defenders of the faith" in the
                            > stinker have a mutual sado-masochistic relationship with the holefolks
                            > or if they desire to please them because they love them so much. There's
                            > a perv deep inside each and every one of us I guess.
                            >
                            > Tarjei
                            >
                          • ted.wrinch
                            It s great not being able to see what I type; I ve just noticed that I typed the Holy Spirt ! T. Ted Wrinch
                            Message 13 of 13 , Oct 7, 2010
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                              It's great not being able to see what I type; I've just noticed that I typed the 'Holy Spirt'!

                              T.

                              Ted Wrinch

                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi Taz,
                              >
                              > Well I don't know if you're including me as a 'defender of the faith' but these days my focus is probably more on knocking out the bottom of the Toilet of the demonic opposition than much defending. I mean, my defence of 'Steiner did not make contradictory statements about Ostwald and materialism' is probably not going to set many defenders' hearts aglow with fervour and ardour. But it's such an emotionally neutral-boring subject that it's been just great for showing up the Evil One's Satanic debating technique.
                              >
                              > And there seems to me to be a middle way between the debate amongst those who don't know and the intimate union with Sophia and the Holy Spirt of those who really know and are probably getting their meds (meditations). Now I'm not good at spiritual meds and so I'm pretty much stuck with the fallible intellect and discussion as my path to Sophia's door (but I think I've made a little progress in the last 20 years, I'm pleased to say :)). After all, many of us have been given the gift of materialism to erase our spiritual knowledge and make us make the re-ascent, step by slow step for ourselves. And I've found that even the likes of Daniel Dennett, much derived by PS as an uber-materialist (but what does PS know about anything?), has over a lifetime of materialistic reflection come to some occasionally wise understandings (eg, unlike Douglas Hoffstadter, he does think that the Self exists in some sense and is important). So perhaps the difference is between those who don't know but discuss with a love of the truth and a desire to know versus those in the Pit Of Despair to where common sense, evidence and reason never reach.
                              >
                              > T.
                              >
                              > Ted Wrinch
                              >
                              > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "cripplekickstand"
                              > > <reidward@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > it is interesting to me that we are having a discussion about not
                              > > having discussions.
                              > >
                              > > Yeah, and it's reverberating in the hole too, that anti-discussion quote
                              > > by RS, and they're tearing their hairs out in frustration down below
                              > > because they think it's so terrible that anthroposophists won't talk to
                              > > them. So I don't know whether the "defenders of the faith" in the
                              > > stinker have a mutual sado-masochistic relationship with the holefolks
                              > > or if they desire to please them because they love them so much. There's
                              > > a perv deep inside each and every one of us I guess.
                              > >
                              > > Tarjei
                              > >
                              >
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