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Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Spiritual Experience Ahead and the Popes

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  • dottie zold
    A Reading from the Gospel of Mary Then I said to him: Lord, when someone meets you in a Moment of vision, is it through the soul[psyche]that they see, or is
    Message 1 of 37 , Sep 11 9:43 PM
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      A Reading from the Gospel of Mary

      "Then I said to him:'Lord, when someone meets you in a Moment of vision, is it through the soul[psyche]that they see, or is it through the Spirit[Pneuma]?' The Teacher answered:'It is neither through the soul or the spirit, but the nous between the two which sees the vision..."
       
      Dz: I am trying to figure or maybe I am wondering, how it is that he would see it again before him, if he did, ...and I can only imagine it must be through the hearts eye or...welll I can't say it as I don't know it to be true or even how it occurs. The Magdalene asks Jesus how it is that she can see Him and it is through the 'nous'....so says the Nag Hamadhi...d

      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Sat, 9/11/10, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

      From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Spiritual Experience Ahead and the Popes
      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, September 11, 2010, 8:03 PM



      "Anyway, the seeking was real with my mate, but the images must have been already there, I don't think its another world per se...no I don't think its another word, rather an experience of something that occurred and which maybe can be found in the akashic records...that's why there was no movement .....my mate moved in a similar way except he was near whereas the others were something he and I were observing, I guess.....my mate was with me as we went on this search and then he couldn't follow me back I guess.....wierd I guess......but no not another world. cool."
       
      Dottie: Okay, I have seen/experienced something of the Akashic records before when Jesus was at the mountain during what is termed the Transfiguration. And in this moment 'He turned towards me pointing his finger' although he moved, it was a picture. It's not a human movement but the picture moves....to the next part...that's how when i said they do not fly nor float nor walk but move somehow, that's how I experienced it, an image that was moving to the next image....this is what Rudolf Steiner saw when he was speaking before audiences at times...he could either see it then or recall that he had already witnessed this in his private moments during contemplation....as it appears in the heart....well ...well i guess i really can't say that.....I am trying to figure or maybe I am wondering, how it is that he would see it again before him, if he did, ...and I can only imagine it must be through the hearts eye or...welll I can't say it as I don't know it to be true or even how it occurs. The Magdalene asks Jesus how it is that she can see Him and it is through the 'nous'....so says the Nag Hamadhi...d

      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Sat, 9/11/10, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

      From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Spiritual Experience Ahead and the Popes
      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, September 11, 2010, 7:54 PM



      "p.s. but here's my question, how is it that we were in physical bodies but were not physical bodies....how is it that this is a spiritual world, inbetween what world is this"
       
      Dottie: Okay, here's my thought on this question I have above: It's sort of like the akashic records in a way. the images I saw where they were not moving were thought images that I was allowed to see or experience. For some reason maybe just to show me not to be scared or something....I need them to be gentle with me as I unleash or the veil is lowered here or there, it cannot be like 'going to the mothers' as I reject moving one more inch and they know that.....I imagine I am behind the ball but that's the way it is, it is what has been produced in my life through a series of experiences as a youth that I did nto understand that scared me I guess in relations to spiritual beings showing themselves or me seeing forms in nature and it scared me so much that I don't allow myself to move further in a way...I've said this for years but...so it has to be gentle for me ...
       
      But I think those forms I saw was like the image my mother saw of Jesus walking and then it disappeared and she was left just thinking 'what was that and ...uh, what was that' she doesn't go into it like I would and that's whats so beautiful about her as its so unpretentious and yet it is always so shocking to me how clear it is and how unmoved she is to check it out any further...she lets me do the talking and she just smiles and thinks I'm amazing when these things are HAPPENING to her. Whew.
       
      Anyway, the seeking was real with my mate, but the images must have been already there, I don't think its another world per se...no I don't think its another word, rather an experience of something that occurred and which maybe can be found in the akashic records...that's why there was no movement .....my mate moved in a similar way except he was near whereas the others were something he and I were observing, I guess.....my mate was with me as we went on this search and then he couldn't follow me back I guess.....wierd I guess......but no not another world. cool.
       
      d
       

      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Sat, 9/11/10, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

      From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Spiritual Experience Ahead and the Popes
      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, September 11, 2010, 8:15 AM



      Wojtyła became the 264th Pope according to the chronological list of popes and the first non-Italian Pope in 455 years.[61] At only 58 years of age, he was the youngest pope elected since Pope Pius IX in 1846, who was 54.[47] Like his immediate predecessor, Pope John Paul II dispensed with the traditional Papal coronation and instead received ecclesiastical investiture with the simplified Papal inauguration on 22 October 1978. During his inauguration, when the cardinals were to kneel before him to take their vows and kiss his ring, he stood up as the Polish prelate Stefan Cardinal Wyszyński knelt down, stopped him from kissing the ring, and hugged him.[62]
       
       
      It wasn't a bathrobe....but it looked like one...kinda like what this pope is wearing below. I am researching the Popes to figure out what was going on and who John Paul needed to find for understanding a thing
       
      File:Popeanacletus.JPG
       
      or like this:
       
      File:Papa Aniceto cropped.jpg
       
      yeah, more like this Pope above, that's the clothing he had on that I thought was a bathrobe:) whew,
       
      and this below, is the sort of hat that the man who was supposed to be in this bed but was not...what a serious looking cat he is...but look at what he has attained as well with the images at the left and right and also above him...that's kinda interesting to consider ...
       
      File:Pope Dionysius.jpg
       
      but the man in the bed's face was more like this one: kindly
       
       
      Papa Ioannes: and he's the first Pope John
      File:Papa Ioannes I.jpg
       
      Pope without a number: Pope Adeodatus
       
      File:Adeodatus II.jpg
       
      Hmmmm and this below is the first Pope Paul:
       
       
       
      Pope Leo crowned Charlemagne:
      File:Leo III.jpg
       
      Hmmm....not good: tenth Pope John of Italy:
       
       
      Pope who intiated the Templars persecution under the direction of France:
       
       
      – 20 April 1314
      (8 years)
      Papst klemens v.jpgClement V
      Papa CLEMENS Quintus
      Bertrand de GotVillandraut, Gascony, FrancePope at Avignon. Convened the Council of Vienne, 1311–1312. Initiated the persecution of the Knights Templar with the Pastoralis Praeeminentiae under pressure from King Philip IV of France.
       
      yeah definitely not a bathrobe whew:
       
      File:09julius.jpg
       
      Pope who convened a meeting in Basel....interesting htis is the only painting that looks as if it is in movement or something:
       
      And this face of Pope John Paul has the eyes and countance of the young John the Baptist head in one of Rembrandts painting...it was so strange to see such a future face that was reminiscent of a Novalis.....I can't say Christian Rosenkruetz because we really never saw an image of him  in a way....that's interesting .....
       
       
      just look at that beautiful face that even until the  end of his life would remain steadfast and true to its form of beauty:
       
      Pope John Paul II on 12 August 1993 in Denver (Colorado)
       
      His coat of arms:
       

      So, my mother, who sleeps in the same bed as I, said to me after I woke up and told her what had occurred: Dottie you helped him to find somebody he was seeking. And so with a warmth in my heart I wonder what he was trying to show me, or what was trying to be seen besides the other most lovely things I took from this experience.....
       
      And after I finished telling my mother what had just occurred she said 'you know that reminds me of something that happened to me last week while on the bus, I was riding the bus when suddenly an image of Jesus was in front of me'. And as always my jaw drops as she says it so non chalantly that it almost strikes me in its simplicity and purity and innocence. And I say 'mom that's what Steiner talkes about, being able to see things in pictures'. She said 'but I wasn't thinking about Him or anything and I can't even tell you how it happened but it just appeared to me this image of Jesus and then it disappeared'....And as always she says how special yada yada yada I am and I get the opportunity to share so clearly how it was from her and dad that I was able to incarnate into a family that has this sort of relationship with Jesus that is freeing and yet true and full of love and devotion....
       
      anyhow, I love Pope John Paul.....blessed be he!
       
      d
      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Fri, 9/10/10, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

      From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
      Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Spiritual Experience Ahead
      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 12:20 PM



      I think what was most amazing to me besides seeing Pope John Paul so  happy with the meeting of this old friend or whatever that was, was the experience of love and how just as in death we are called to a new relationship from a human perspective of the one who has crossed the Threshold, so too we are called to a new relationship with Love in the sense that it is not about something where sexualness is how it is expressed rather it is the warmth of the other sharing their warmth with you....it ...oh it is the experience Rudolf Steiner speaks of where he says that when we think lovenly on one who has crossed the Threshold they experience this like a switch board and lighting up within them...I always held that image and share it often with those who have just lost someone...now I have the experience of it first hand.
       
      And it was confusing to me as i was trying to say 'hey let's get it on' while we were waiting in line at this very very old style ticket place...almost like the one they have in Dornach if you want to exchange your money at the train station.....and he was consistantly sending me love while I was trying to say 'hey come on' with my body....:)))) very very interesting and also when he stood at the precipice as I looked down  happily he was really in a fear of some sorts to the extent that he walked quickly...well walk is relatve I guess:))) but not flying either, whew, and well it was a fear of falling back down or a knowledge maybe that he wasn't able to go down  there, but at the time I did not realize it represented where I live now...funny.....
       
      I love though how when I started to experience that a spiritual thing was about to happen and started to resist I made a decision to 'well lets see this thing' and it was a going up of sorts but into nothingness that had a quality before it was into the next world or whatever that is called.....
       
      And nobody here can speak to this experience to share what that world could be or where Pope John Paul could be right now in his kama loca? well, I don't think he has to do kamaloca like that though....he's pretty huge....d

      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



      --- On Fri, 9/10/10, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

      From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
      Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Spiritual Experience Ahead
      To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 8:49 AM



      What Dreams May Come....well had that experience last night.
       
      So I got pulled...actually for the first time I allowed myself to get pulled into the spiritual worlds awake.....I can't imagine though its the 'breaking of continuity' as spoken of by Rudolf Steiner because that happened to me early on when I was cultivating that exact experience about 8 or so years ago. And that world is all color and sound....well truth be I didn't know there was a different world but I came to an experience last night that shows me there is but I am really really wondering 'what world can this be'.....how can it be that we have exact bodies that replicate the human body completely....except it is not a physical feel form like you can pinch or anything its a form, and its not a hologram because it is real not an image like....and this is what brought me to the movie thought of What Dreams May Come with Robin Williams....I am thinking it is the name of the  movie..
       
      Okay, in this world there is no sex, the sex is the love one feels for the other. There is no physicalness although it looks like it would be but even if it looks physical and your attracted to someone there is no sex, the feeling is mutual and the love is shared through that consciousness....the consciousness of love...strange strange strange but so appropriate I imagine for the spiritual worlds.....
       
      So I met Pope John Paul, a brother to Rudolf Steiner really. They are brothers. And he was a Templar or the manwhose name starts with Charlmegne...or something like that...he is a big deal and I imagine that is how he was able to meet Mother Mary when he was younger. He already had the capacity.
       
      I had to help search or was seeking Pope Alderich or a Pope Aldo something....well, I didn't know he was a Pople but I was searching for this Aldorich and then when I found him in his bed, not a physical bed, and he was missing from the room that wasn't a room:))) funny...anyhow when I, with my helpmate who was my soul  mate it seems, when we finally found the empty bed that this Aldorich should have been in Pope John Paul walks in, we are in the heavenly worlds now so there really is no walking not even floating but a movement of sorts, no words to express I guess, and ....just appears so that is a movement I guess, but not out of nowhere so its not like ...anyway, whew, when Pope John Paul walks in with the biggest smiile you will ever see in your life filled with love and laughter and warmth,, such warmth and appreciation, suddenly I realize that Aldorich is a pope and he's in his bed with a red snug longjohn sort of thing on...and Pope John Paul is in his big fuzzy bathrobe that is sort of pope like and he's much larger than he was in real life, and they smile and embrace and are so so so sososo happy....and then my soulmate and I are on the precipice of a very large mountain that is sand with the ocean below....and
       
      and I want to go below and he comes to the edge and pulls back immediately afraid or something and I laugh and show hiim there are steps and as he's refusing I am pulled down the steps and back into my bed awake........
       
      This time is the first time I allowed it and when I say I allowed it, it means it was my choice as it started to happen that I was waking up in the spiritual worlds, something one becomes aware of between the waking and sleeping state, not that I think 'oh the spiritual worlds' rather 'uhoh a spiritual experience'....
       
      So who the heck is pope Aldorich or Aldo......and what is his relationship with John Paul....and
       
      I walk out into my little living room and my lady love who turns 90 in a few months, is sitting on a chair, and she says while shaking her head  as I walk her back to bed.....'something funnys going on here, I'm not me, I'm somebody else'....
       
      All good things,
      Dottie
       
      p.s. but here's my question, how is it that we were in physical bodies but were not physical bodies....how is it that this is a spiritual world, inbetween what world is this
       
      p.s..s I have a friend who holds true to a teachers work on alternate universes...well if his teacher had these experiences i can understand why he would think that but as a Steiner student I realize it has to be inbetween something or something like that, not an alternative universe in the way they mean it today..
       

       
      "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
















    • elfuncle
      I m sort of relieved you re not a Templar, Dottie, because I ve been suspecting you of being one of them mamas Frank and I were discussing ;) Well, it s not a
      Message 37 of 37 , Sep 12 8:12 AM
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        I'm sort of relieved you're not a Templar, Dottie, because I've been suspecting you of being one of them mamas Frank and I were discussing ;)

        Well, it's not a mosque that's planned for that address some blocks away from Ground Zero, but a Muslim cultural center open to everyone. Note the difference. On the other hand, this project is being financed, they say, by the Fox News organization, tea party folks, so the whole idea behind it is to create controversy. Not a good idea to take their bait.

        As for the fast growth of Islam, getting converts from Christianity and so on, it's basically what Erich Fromm once called fear of freedom, or rather flight from freedom. Christ expects too much responsibility from the individual, and people don't want to turn the other cheek and give everything they have to the poor and so on. Having to pray five times a day, walking around in portable tents, and having to take that trip to Mecca etc. -- these things may be tedious, but as long as you stick to such formalities you don't have to cleanse your own soul and become holy, because Allah is doing all that for you as long as you stick with his external program. It's all about obedience to scripture; what you get in return is freedom from responsibility for your own karma.

        http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/YoungDoctors/19240424a01.html

        "Just think how abstractly, how brutally, how heedlessly investigations are made into these things today and you will realize what is really lacking and has been killed, in spite of the fact that Arabism did conserve much of the wisdom, conscientiousness and skill of ancient times. It has been killed because Moon, Sun and Saturn—this Trinity which was then disguised as Father, Son and Spirit — disappeared and was repudiated by Arabian thought in Mohammedanism with the words: 'Away with this Trinity. Mohammed proclaims only one God!' (Mohammed himself did not say this, but the Angel who inspired him, did. He was not one of the best Angels although he was a very wise one.)"

        ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Course for Young Doctors, Lecture IV, Dornach, April 24, 1924, GA# 316)

        Tarjei

        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm not a Templar Taz and its interesting because there is a way that everyone thinks they were templars...................but I don't think they were all killers and barbaric...there was an end to meet and the true ones who were on a mystery seeking journey and initiatic path were not the barbaric ones although like the Popes maybe they too were in the hierarachic pathway of not touching the blood of those below them in a way....don't know how else to express it....
        >  
        > But you know Taz I have been really conflicted with the whole controversy around the Mosque going up near the New York site where the planes drove into the towers. And I am one who is always on the side of religious freedom and I appreciate Muhammed as well, very much so, as he had a great task to turn the people of the desert towards the consciousness soul age with one God which then allowed the 'people of the book' and the sons of Abraham to begin to understand their journey together.....
        >  
        > What  I am bothered by and rather what I...well what I am bothered by is the very real fact that the Imam's of the mosques, the very conservatice ones, have a way of infiltrating and pushing their own agendas to where they would be able to put themselves in a position to further the hard core conservative view of Islam which serves no one mostly not those who are trying to find the balance between the sons of Abraham.
        >  
        > And this brought a question to my mind in that how is it that Islam is the fastest growing religioun in the world???? How is that? I  have really been pondering that and I want to understand what it is that turn people away from Christ and to Muhammed for there are many Christians who do so and I am confused by that. What is it that Islam offers, not suffiism but Islam......I can only think of the call to God three times a day, as I have said before I really appreciate that devotion regardless of what they are devoting upon, but the act to be devotional towards the heavenly worlds......I can think of no other reason, do you have any thoughts on what it is that brings people to Islam?
        >  
        > They do have a similar feel as the Jews do in their devotion, something the Christians really lack in some way at least as is my experience...they have a similar feel to keep their minds on God throughout their days that I experience Christians pull together on Sundays for the most part.....they really really think of God as ...well i understand there is no freedom in it but at the same time there is this understanding of something more.....
        >  
        > My friend who is a Muslim cannot speak of anything that I speak of with him in the Mosque. He said clearly that he would be in alot of trouble for doing so and this is in los angeles. I keep thinking how can it be that bad that one would think his life is in danger and if so then why is this allowed to go on here in America where, different from Europe, these things are really taken in hand by the law .... i don't think people realized the hardlliners stance and how they do live  next to us day in and day out and they do have people, their own people, in fear of speaking of anything o ther than Muhammed.....its a dilema is what I see.
        >  
        > All good things,
        > Dottie
        >
        >
        > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
        >
        >
        >
        > --- On Sat, 9/11/10, elfuncle <elfuncle@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: elfuncle <elfuncle@...>
        > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Spiritual Experience Ahead and the Popes
        > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Saturday, September 11, 2010, 12:18 PM
        >
        >
        > A few years after kidnapping pope Boniface VIII, who died only a month or so after this event, Philip the Fair did all that awful nasty stuff to the Knights Templar. Those crusades those knights participated in were thoroughly barbaric, though, they massacred cities, including Jerusalem, where they actually waded to their knees in blood. Those popes and kings and knights were terrible all of them, absolutely terrible. Not the kind of guys you'd want to bring home to mama.
        >
        > Tarjei
        >
        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@> wrote:
        > >
        > > I really appreciate this, Dottie. One of my favorite episodes from history was the strained relations between Philip the Fair of France and pope Boniface VIII, and the fun part comes in 1303 when king Philip has the pope kidnapped. Boniface VIII was said to be a heretic, a murderer, a sodomite, and -- get this -- keeping a little devil as his private pet! I just love this stuff. It was all about taxation and power and never-ending duels between secular and religious rulers about who should dominate the other.
        > >
        > > Tarjei
        > >
        > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > But no Aldo..............this other Pope or gentleman that he had to find or  was seeking............
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
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