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Desperately Seeking Sophia :)

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  • dottie zold
    Dear Friends, In reading Isis Mary Sophia I had the most wonderful experience of re membering Her again. God is she so beautiful. Just so very very
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 16, 2004
      Dear Friends,

      In reading Isis Mary Sophia I had the most wonderful experience of re
      membering Her again. God is she so beautiful. Just so very very
      precious....

      Dr. Steiner " What, therefore, must be developed? It must unfold
      that, once again, as a matter of course, a "Sophia" becomes present.
      But we must learn to relate this Sophia to the consciousness soul,
      bring her down directly to human beings. This is happening during the
      age of the consciousness soul. And thereby Sophia becomes the being
      who directly enlightens human beings. After Sophia has entered human
      beings, she must take their being with her and present it to them
      outwardly, objectively. Thus, Sophia will be drawn into the human
      soul and arrive at the point of being so inwardly connected with it
      that a love poem as beautiful as the one Dante wrote may be writeen
      about her".

      So, I ask, who has had this experience of Sophia that they can write
      a poem of her virtues and loves? Anyone?

      I was also a bit surprised by the explanation of what an Intellectual
      Soul or Mind Soul refers to: the Soul of higher feeling. (I like caps)

      Dr. Steiner says of course we are preparing for the Spirit Self and
      of course, I believe if we do not seek Sophia we shall miss the boat
      so to speak till another time.

      He goes on to say:

      "Sophia will become objective again, but she will take with her what
      humanity is, and objectively present herself in this form. Thus, she
      will present herself not only as Sophia, but as Anthroposophia-as the
      Sophia who, after passing through the human soul, through the very
      being of the human being, henceforth bears that being within her. And
      in this form she will confront enlightened human beings as the
      objective being Sophia who once stood before the Greeks".

      Well well well....is all I have to say...not really. And this is the
      Three in One once again. This is how I experience Magdalene as
      Sophia: She became Sophia as she was taken within the being Sophia
      and bears her within. Oh goodeness...oh goodeness...and must be why I
      experience Sophia in Christ...for it is through Her, through Her, He
      is truly born.

      And who found who? Did I find Dr. Steiner so I could find Magdalene
      so I could then find Sophia? Who knows these things. But one can look
      back and trace the path of how one finds oneself standing before this
      most sublime, precious, precious being of which the greatest poets
      have written their greatest love songs to, including one Mr. Harvey
      Bornfield, earlyfire... Ah, yes, when one read the Psalms, Proverbs,
      Gibran and others who share the indescribable pleasure and treasures
      of this most wonderful Lady is to melt in love, is to be within the
      Godhead. I do so love Sophia.

      Oh Sophia,

      Dottie
    • Deborah
      Beautiful, Dottie! I wonder how Sophia appeared to the Greeks? Perhaps in more than one form. Athena was a goddess who was supposed to have been born, fully
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 16, 2004
        Beautiful, Dottie!

        I wonder how Sophia appeared to the Greeks? Perhaps in more than one
        form.

        Athena was a goddess who was supposed to have been born, fully grown
        and dressed in armor, from the head of Zeus. Athens was, of course,
        named after her.

        I'll see if I can find any goodies in my collection of books about
        the Greeks. I studied Greek for 3 years at the U of Wisc (I was
        really, really bad, alas), but I did get a good exposure to Greek
        literature and mythology in the midst of my struggles.

        Deborah
      • Deborah
        Dottie, Here is a description of the last appearance of Sophia at the very end of the classical world. The author is Boethius, who wrote The Consolation of
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 17, 2004
          Dottie,

          Here is a description of the last appearance of Sophia at the very
          end of the classical world. The author is Boethius, who wrote "The
          Consolation of Philosophy" while imprisoned. For anyone who would
          like to see the full text:

          http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/boethius/boetrans.html

          where you can also find all the information about the translation,
          etc.

          Deborah

          While I was pondering thus in silence, and using my pen to set down
          so tearful a complaint, there appeared standing over my head a
          woman's form, whose countenance was full of majesty, whose eyes shone
          as with fire and in power of insight surpassed the eyes of men, whose
          colour was full of life, whose strength was yet intact though she was
          so full of years that none would ever think that she was subject to
          such age as ours. One could but doubt her varying stature, for at one
          moment she repressed it to the common measure of a man, at another
          she seemed to touch with her crown the very heavens: and when she had
          raised higher her head, it pierced even the sky and baffled the sight
          of those who would look upon it. Her clothing was wrought of the
          finest thread by subtle workmanship brought to an indivisible piece.
          This had she woven with her own hands, as I afterwards did learn by
          her own shewing. Their beauty was somewhat dimmed by the dulness of
          long neglect, as is seen in the smoke-grimed masks of our ancestors.
          On the border below was inwoven the symbol II, on
          that above was to be read a 1 And between the two letters there could
          be marked degrees, by which, as by the rungs of a ladder, ascent
          might be made from the lower principle to the higher. Yet the hands
          of rough men had torn this garment and snatched such morsels as they
          could therefrom. In her right hand she carried books, in her left was
          a sceptre brandished.
        • holderlin66
          Deborah wrote: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/boethius/boetrans.html And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 17, 2004
            Deborah wrote:

            http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/boethius/boetrans.html

            "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them,
            Receive ye the Holy Ghost: "

            Bradford adds to the research:

            This Holy Ghost, is a curious aspect of Sophiology. Novalis as
            Artist and Scientist comes through this Sophiology on the death of
            Sophie von Kuhn. Steiner understands that Beatrice and Dante's
            profound inspiration that has to do with the Ninefold structure of
            the cosmos and human sheaths also models out an intimate Sophia
            structure. Jacob Boehme also takes the researcher into the mystical
            inner experiences of Sophia.

            But I will illustrate here an additional four avenues of research
            towards Sophiology. The Romantics, by Steiner's Love story of Dante
            allows us to say that the Romantics were inspired by a Holy Ghost,
            speaking in tongues, language of higher Angelic Communication and
            this holds strongly for Rainer Marie Rilke in his poetic work. So
            altogether in this related research that I will list below we have
            approximately Nine References to Sophiology.

            The Holy Ghost and the Arthur and Grail stories always reveal a sort
            of Sophiology referencing as a Whitsun or Pentecost mystery.
            Grunewald the Painter, who paints Mary in a Mountain landscape at
            the birth of Jesus and in a panel behind or side by side, he paints
            the inner picture of Mary. Here we come vision to vision, face to
            face with the Crowned Starry Sophia amongst the Planetary spirits,
            that Grunewald includes in his painting. This makes nearly 11
            references for us to track.

            Finally and dangerously, Reproductive Technology holds both star
            secrets, dragon errors and bridges between flower and insect, animal
            and human- and human and superhuman genome issues, Nature in all her
            motherly mystery links to the profound Starry wisdom of Sophia as
            well.

            One further thread of thinking connects us to what Ahriman opposed
            so strongly. That the Holy Ghost and Karma of the Grail families had
            arisen in relation to planned parenthood, based on the Holy Ghost
            that held Christ together, as a living Imagination and these apostle
            human seeds were transplanted further along histories course into
            the Grail families. Here the Wagner/Merlin intuition was attacked
            ferociously by Nazi Selective Breeding techniques, that were not
            based on Starry or Etheric or Ego tracking realities but on human
            Racism. Nazi did not want the information and the connections we
            have put together here to become part of Steiner's Mission.

            Steiner's Mission was to prepare the daughters of Sophia and Anthro-
            Sophia and track I AM's to midwife and assist Sophiology and the
            Science of the Ninefold human being. So grab a shovel for here is a
            real download.

            ONE;

            "Luke next proceeds with his narrative in the following terms: "And
            as they thus spake, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and
            saith unto them, Peace be unto you: it is I; be not afraid.23 But
            they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen
            a spirit.

            And He said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts
            arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I
            myself: handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as
            ye see me have.

            And when He had thus spoken, He showed them His hands and His
            feet."24 It is to this act, by which the Lord showed Himself after
            His resurrection, that John is also understood to refer when he
            discourses as follows: "Then, when it was late on the first day of
            the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were
            assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus, and stood in the midst,
            and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

            And when He had so said, He showed unto them His hands and His
            side."25 Thus, too, we may connect with these words of John certain
            matters which Luke reports, but which John Himself omits. For Luke
            continues in these terms: "And while they yet believed not for joy,
            and wondered, He said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they
            gave Him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And when He
            had eaten before them, He took what remained,26 and gave it unto
            them."27

            Again, a passage which Luke omits, but which John presents, may next
            be connected with these words. It is to the following effect: "Then
            were the disciples glad when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to
            them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so
            send I you.

            And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them,
            Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are
            remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are
            retained."28 Once more, we may attach to the above section another
            which John has left out, but which Luke inserts. It runs thus: "And
            He said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you while
            I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were
            written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the Psalms,
            concerning me."

            TWO;

            "Then fixing her eyes wholly on me, she said, ' Are you the man who
            was nourished upon the milk of my learning, brought up with my food
            until you had won you r way to the power of a manly soul? Surely I
            had given you such weapons as would keep you safe, and your strength
            unconquered; if you had not thrown them away. Do you know me? Why do
            you keep silence? Are you dumb from shame or from dull amazement? I
            would it were from shame, but I see that amazement has overwhelmed
            you.'

            When she saw that I was not only silent, but utter]y tongue-tied
            and dumb, she put her hand gently upon my breast, and said,' There
            is no danger: he is suffering from drowsiness, that disease which
            attacks so many minds which have been deceived. He has forgotten
            himself for a moment and will quickly remember, as soon as he
            recognises me. That he may do so, l et me brush away from his eyes
            the darkening cloud of thoughts of matters perishable.' So saying,
            she gathered her robe into a fold and dried my swimming eyes.

            Then was dark night dispelled, the shadows fled away, and my ey
            es received returning power as before.'Twas just as when the
            heavenly bodies are enveloped by the west wind's rush, and the sky
            stands thick with watery clouds; the sun is hidden and the stars are
            not yet come into the sky, and night descending from above
            o'erspreads the earth: but if the north wind smites this scene,
            launched forth from the Thracian cave, it unlocks the imprisoned
            daylight; the sun shines forth, and thus sparkling Phoebus smites
            with his rays our wondering eyes.

            &nbs p; In such a manner were the clouds of grief scattered. Then I
            drew breath again and engaged my mind in taking knowledge of my
            physician's countenance. So when I turned my eyes towards her and
            fixed my gaze upon her, I recognised my nurse, Philosophy, in whose
            chambers I had spent my life from earliest manhood. And I asked
            her,' Wherefore have you, mistress of all virtues, come down from
            heaven above to visit my lonely place of banishment? Is it that you,
            as well as I, may be harrie d, the victim of false
            charges? ' 'Should I,' said she,' desert you, my nursling?"

            THREE;

            http://www.sophiafoundation.org/Who_is_Sophia.html

            "Sophiology is closely connected to the life work of Vladimir
            Soloviev (1853 - 1900), one of Russia's greatest philosophers.
            Soloviev had three mystical experiences of Sophia, and these
            determined the central impulse and motivation for his entire life's
            work. Inspired by Soloviev, Pavel Florensky (1882 - 1937) and Sergei
            Bulgakov (1871 - 1944), both of whom were priests in the Russian
            Orthodox Church, developed Sophiology further in a systematic sense,
            drawing primarily upon the biblical Books of Wisdom and the Orthodox
            tradition of devotion to Sophia. It was their concern to elaborate a
            theology of Sophia that, while signifying an extension of Orthodox
            theology, would not conflict with it.

            In the meantime, in the West, interest in Sophia is growing. This
            accords with Soloviev's prophetic vision of the approaching descent
            of Sophia. He expresses this vision in one of his poems:

            Let it be known: today the Eternal Feminine
            In an incorruptible body is descending to Earth.
            In the unfading light of the new Goddess
            Heaven has become one with the depths.

            Here we have returned full circle to Goethe's words concerning the
            Eternal Feminine."

            FOUR;

            http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37a7a68640c3.htm

            "One day, I remember well, the chilly winds whistled through the
            leafless trees, though the sky was cloudless and the sun shone
            brightly, he remained in his quarters nearly all the afternoon
            alone. When he came out, I noticed that his face was a shade paler
            than usual, and there seemed to be something on his mind of more
            than ordinary importance. Returning just after dusk, he dispatched
            an orderly to the quarters of the officer I mention who was
            presently in attendance. After a preliminary conversation of about
            half an hour, Washington, gazing upon his companion with that
            strange look of dignity which he alone could command said to the
            latter: "I do not know whether it is owing to anxiety of my mind, or
            what, but this afternoon, as I was sitting at this table engaged in
            preparing a dispatch, something seemed to disturb me. Looking up, I
            beheld standing opposite me a singularly beautiful female. So
            astonished was I, for I had given strict orders not to be disturbed,
            that it was some moments before I found language to inquire the
            cause of her presence. A second, a third, and even a fourth time did
            I repeat my question, but received no answer from my mysterious
            visitor except a slight raising of her eyes. "Presently I heard a
            voice saying, 'Son of the Republic, look and learn,' while at the
            same time my visitor extended her arm eastwardly. I now beheld a
            heavy white vapor at some distance rising fold upon fold. This
            gradually dissipated, and I looked upon a strange scene. Before me
            lay spread out in one vast plain all the countries of the world --
            Europe, Asia, Africa, and America. I saw rolling and tossing,
            between Europe and America, the billows of the Atlantic, and between
            Asia and America lay the Pacific. "'Son of the Republic,' said the
            same mysterious voice as before,"

            FIVE;

            'Come in,' said the voice of the princess.

            Curdie opened the door - but, to his astonishment, saw no room
            there. Could he have opened a wrong door? There was the great
            sky, and the stars, and beneath he could see nothing only darkness!
            But what was that in the sky, straight in front of him? A great
            wheel of fire, turning and turning, and flashing out blue lights!

            'Come in, Curdie,' said the voice again.

            'I would at once, ma'am,' said Curdie, 'if I were sure I was
            standing at your door.'

            'Why should you doubt it, Curdie?'

            'Because I see neither walls nor floor, only darkness and the great
            sky.'
            'That is all right, Curdie. Come in.'

            Curdie stepped forward at once. He was indeed, for the very crumb
            of a moment, tempted to feel before him with his foot; but he saw
            that would be to distrust the princess, and a greater rudeness he
            could not offer her. So he stepped straight in - I will not say
            without a little tremble at the thought of finding no floor beneath
            his foot. But that which had need of the floor found it, and his
            foot was satisfied.

            "No sooner was he in than he saw that the great revolving wheel in
            the sky was the princess's spinning wheel, near the other end of
            the room, turning very fast. He could see no sky or stars any
            more, but the wheel was flashing out blue - oh, such lovely
            sky-blue light! - and behind it of course sat the princess, but
            whether an old woman as thin as a skeleton leaf, or a glorious lady
            as young as perfection, he could not tell for the turning and
            flashing of the wheel.

            'Listen to the wheel,' said the voice which had already grown dear
            to Curdie: its very tone was precious like a jewel, not as a jewel,
            for no jewel could compare with it in preciousness.

            And Curdie listened and listened.

            ****************************************
            Now you are listening, with Curdie, to "The Music of the SPheres".
            Now we are listening to what Kepler saw in the Geometry of the
            planets, in the music of matter. But how would you even know to go to
            Kepler and to Tycho De Brahe in history and find out that here again
            we find Sophia...there is also a Great german Mystic who speaks
            directly of Sophia...Jakob Boehme (Böhme, Behm)(1575-1624). If you
            really want to know about Sophia you will do just as Danny has said.
            You will look up the Egyptian Goddess NUT. Her body is the entire
            arch of the Heavens and we feed off her lunar breasts, which connects
            directly to all that you should scramble to understand about Diana of
            Ephesus.

            In Tycho, like Novalis, we are dealing with Tycho as the strange
            woman named Herzaloyde, mother of Parsifal. If you cannot be dumb
            founded and warmly shocked by reality how will you ever uncover the
            Curdie forces of discernment that George MacDonald brought in for us?
            What about Kepler? We know he was incarnated in Egypt and obviously
            understood a great deal about NUT..he carried over his Egyptian
            Initation into his Kepler incarnation. What are we scared of, knowing
            the trails and back tracks that will get us on the right road, means
            we have to learn to put current education in its deserved place. It
            means we have to learn how to self correct and listen with intense
            interest to thousands and thousands of seemingly unimportant events.
            **************************************************

            'What is it saying?' asked the voice.

            'It is singing,' answered Curdie.

            'What is it singing?'

            Curdie tried to make out, but thought he could not; for no sooner
            had he got hold of something than it vanished again.

            Yet he listened, and listened, entranced with delight.

            'Thank you, Curdie, said the voice.

            'Ma'am,' said Curdie, 'I did try hard for a while, but I could not
            make anything of it.'

            'Oh yes, you did, and you have been telling it to me! Shall I tell
            you again what I told my wheel, and my wheel told you, and you have
            just told me without knowing it?'

            'Please, ma'am.'

            Then the lady began to sing, and her wheel spun an accompaniment to
            her song, and the music of the wheel was like the music of an
            Aeolian harp blown upon by the wind that bloweth where it listeth.
            Oh, the sweet sounds of that spinning wheel! Now they were gold,
            now silver, now grass, now palm trees, now ancient cities, now
            rubies, now mountain brooks, now peacock's feathers, now clouds,
            now snowdrops, and now mid-sea islands. But for the voice that
            sang through it all, about that I have no words to tell. It would
            make you weep if I were able to tell you what that was like, it was
            so beautiful and true and lovely. But this is something like the
            words of its song:

            The stars are spinning their threads, And the clouds are the dust
            that flies, And the suns are weaving them up For the time when the
            sleepers shall rise.

            The ocean in music rolls, And gems are turning to eyes, And the
            trees are gathering souls For the day when the sleepers shall rise.

            The weepers are learning to smile, And laughter to glean the sighs;
            Burn and bury the care and guile, For the day when the sleepers
            shall rise.

            oh, the dews and the moths and the daisy red, The larks and the
            glimmers and flows! The lilies and sparrows and daily bread, And
            the something that nobody knows!

            The princess stopped, her wheel stopped, and she laughed. And her
            laugh was sweeter than song and wheel; sweeter than running brook
            and silver bell; sweeter than joy itself, for the heart of the
            laugh was love.

            'Come now, Curdie, to this side of my wheel, and you will find me,'
            she said; and her laugh seemed sounding on still in the words, as
            if they were made of breath that had laughed.

            Curdie obeyed, and passed the wheel, and there she stood to receive
            him! - fairer than when he saw her last, a little younger still,
            and dressed not in green and emeralds, but in pale blue, with a
            coronet of silver set with pearls, and slippers covered with opals
            that gleamed every colour of the rainbow. It was some time before
            Curdie could take his eyes from the marvel of her loveliness."
          • dottie zold
            Dear Deborah, Very interesting reading this. I immediately felt, this can t be right and then I felt sad knowing it was actually very accurate. See, Sophia was
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 17, 2004
              Dear Deborah,

              Very interesting reading this. I immediately felt, this can't be
              right and then I felt sad knowing it was actually very accurate. See,
              Sophia was 'dying' in a sense within the people. And She would be the
              mirror image for how they hold her. And so at this time she was
              getting ready to leave. Dr. Steiner speaks of this moment as well.

              And, then, here we are today. She is the most beautiful being in the
              whole world. Is it just because I can see her and I love her? No,
              it's because people are starting to seek her once more. Seeds have
              been sown and slowly, well actually rather quickly it seems to me,
              she is reappearing and she is young but just as she is described in
              the passage below. She reaches up past the sky line and takes up the
              whole borders. She bows before the grass and humbles herself before
              all with a shy smile and a hearty laugh. The Wind loves her as well
              as do all living creatures seen and unseen. She is the Queen. And She
              is most willing and hoping that we will but just seek her with our
              hearts as She passes us by looking for just one who will dare to call
              Her name. As if She tills the moonlit nights for just a sign, just a
              flicker of rememberence. She is so.

              Thank you for the link and your words of kindness,

              Love,d


              Deborah:
              > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/boethius/boetrans.html
              >
              > While I was pondering thus in silence, and using my pen to set down
              > so tearful a complaint, there appeared standing over my head a
              > woman's form, whose countenance was full of majesty, whose eyes
              shone
              > as with fire and in power of insight surpassed the eyes of men,
              whose
              > colour was full of life, whose strength was yet intact though she
              was
              > so full of years that none would ever think that she was subject to
              > such age as ours. One could but doubt her varying stature, for at
              one
              > moment she repressed it to the common measure of a man, at another
              > she seemed to touch with her crown the very heavens: and when she
              had
              > raised higher her head, it pierced even the sky and baffled the
              sight
              > of those who would look upon it. Her clothing was wrought of the
              > finest thread by subtle workmanship brought to an indivisible
              piece.
              > This had she woven with her own hands, as I afterwards did learn by
              > her own shewing. Their beauty was somewhat dimmed by the dulness of
              > long neglect, as is seen in the smoke-grimed masks of our
              ancestors.
              > On the border below was inwoven the symbol II, on
              > that above was to be read a 1 And between the two letters there
              could
              > be marked degrees, by which, as by the rungs of a ladder, ascent
              > might be made from the lower principle to the higher. Yet the hands
              > of rough men had torn this garment and snatched such morsels as
              they
              > could therefrom. In her right hand she carried books, in her left
              was
              > a sceptre brandished.
            • Deborah
              ... See, Sophia was dying in a sense within the people. And She would be the mirror image for how they hold her. And so at this time she was getting ready to
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 18, 2004
                Dottie said:
                ------
                See,
                Sophia was 'dying' in a sense within the people. And She would be the
                mirror image for how they hold her. And so at this time she was
                getting ready to leave. Dr. Steiner speaks of this moment as well.
                -----------
                Dear Dottie,

                But it isn't all sadness. Sophia had to go away and the classical
                world had to die and be reborn. Michael could not have brought the
                Cosmic Intelligence down to earth without there being a sort of open
                space...and I feel that open space came about through Sophia's
                generous stepping back. Ancient philosophy (literally love of wisdom
                or love of Sophia) had come to the end of its creativity. The schools
                of Athens had closed and the teachers had gone east to Persia where
                they settled in Jundishapur.

                I'll go looking for the Steiner quote on the Cosmic Intelligence
                coming down to earth.

                It was very kind of Philosophy to come and visit poor Boethius in
                prison. What a wonderful gift of wisdom was given there, to him and
                to the scholars of the dark ages. A sort of cocoon was spun and
                within rested a seed of wisdom, waiting to be reborn as something new
                and extraordinary during the Middle Ages.

                Cheers,
                Deborah

                Dear Deborah,

                Very interesting reading this. I immediately felt, this can't be
                right and then I felt sad knowing it was actually very accurate. See,
                Sophia was 'dying' in a sense within the people. And She would be the
                mirror image for how they hold her. And so at this time she was
                getting ready to leave. Dr. Steiner speaks of this moment as well.

                And, then, here we are today. She is the most beautiful being in the
                whole world. Is it just because I can see her and I love her? No,
                it's because people are starting to seek her once more. Seeds have
                been sown and slowly, well actually rather quickly it seems to me,
                she is reappearing and she is young but just as she is described in
                the passage below. She reaches up past the sky line and takes up the
                whole borders. She bows before the grass and humbles herself before
                all with a shy smile and a hearty laugh. The Wind loves her as well
                as do all living creatures seen and unseen. She is the Queen. And She
                is most willing and hoping that we will but just seek her with our
                hearts as She passes us by looking for just one who will dare to call
                Her name. As if She tills the moonlit nights for just a sign, just a
                flicker of rememberence. She is so.

                Thank you for the link and your words of kindness,

                Love,d
              • Deborah
                I ve been reading The Archangel Michael: His Mission and Ours: Selected Lectures and Writings by Rudolf Steiner. Published by Anthroposophic Press in 1994. I
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 20, 2004
                  I've been reading "The Archangel Michael: His Mission and Ours:
                  Selected Lectures and Writings by Rudolf Steiner." Published by
                  Anthroposophic Press in 1994. I received this book as a gift many
                  years ago and never got around to reading it until Dottie inspired me
                  with her questions about Sophia.

                  Towards the end of the book are some excerpts from the Michael
                  Mystery, the Michael Letters. The first is entitled: "At the Dawn of
                  the Age of Michael" August 17, 1924.

                  Quote:

                  Human beings enjoyed a different relationship to their thoughts prior
                  to the ninth century after the Mystery of Golgotha than they did
                  later on. They did not feel the thoughts living in their souls were
                  produced by them, but they regarded them rather as gifts given them
                  by the spiritual world. Even such thoughts as they had about what
                  they perceived with their senses seemed to them revelations of the
                  Divine conveyed by objects in the sense world.
                  ----------------------------------------------
                  Deborah:

                  My experience of studying Ancient Greek reinforces this statement.
                  Greeks may not always have been conscious of thoughts as coming from
                  the Divine, but they did not feel the thoughts as being their
                  individual creations. It was more a feeling of thoughts being "out
                  there" and "found."

                  Quote:

                  Anyone who can perceive the Spirit understands this feeling.

                  Those to who a spiritual reality is manifested never feel that the
                  spiritual percept is given and that they then form the concept to
                  grasp it. Rather they actually "see" the thought contained in the
                  percept. The thought is just as objectively present as is the percept
                  itself.

                  During the ninth century--this is, of course, only an approximate
                  time, to be understood as a median, for the transition took place
                  gradually--individual personal intelligence began to illumine the
                  souls of human beings. People got the feeling that "they formed"
                  their thoughts. This thought-forming activity became the predominant
                  feature of soul life, so that thinkers conceived of the human soul as
                  expressing itself fundamentally in the application of intelligence.
                  --------------------------------
                  Deborah:

                  Earlier I brought forward Boethius and his book "Consolation of
                  Philosophy" as the last appearance of Sophia in the "classical" world.

                  Here is one of the earliest thinkers in the medieval world to take up
                  what Boethius had brought (which became a bridge into medieval
                  thinking).

                  Quote:

                  The first man in Western Europe, so far as we know, to lecture
                  systematically on the whole range of Boethius's logical treatises,
                  was the scholar Gerbert, who settled in Rheims in 972 in order to
                  study logic under a certain Gerannus, archdeacon of the city. The
                  pupil soon eclipsed the master, and during the next twenty-five
                  years, in the midst of ever increasing political activity, he made a
                  European reputation as a teacher. We are fortunate in having an
                  account of Gerbert's teaching in the history of his time written by
                  his pupil Richer. It takes us into a scholar's workshop at a critical
                  moment in the formation of Europe, and, short though it is, there is
                  no comparable description of a master's teaching for many years to
                  come. (p.175, "The Making of the Middle Ages." by R.W. Southern,
                  1953.)
                  --------------------------------------
                  Deborah:

                  The author goes on to discuss exactly which texts Gerbert expounded
                  and how he revived and expanded the study of logic.

                  So, we have Philosophia saying good-bye to Boethius (between 524 and
                  526) and then the revival of logic after 972. Steiner, above, puts
                  the beginning of the new relationship to thought in the 800s, the
                  time of the Carolingian Renaissance. Within 200 years thinkers were
                  taking up the ideas of the past and working with them in new ways.

                  Cheers,
                  Deborah
                • holderlin66
                  holderlin wrote: This Holy Ghost, is a curious aspect of Sophiology. Steiner s Mission was to prepare the daughters of Sophia and Anthro- Sophia and track I
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 30, 2004
                    holderlin wrote:

                    "This Holy Ghost, is a curious aspect of Sophiology.

                    Steiner's Mission was to prepare the daughters of Sophia and Anthro-
                    Sophia and track I AM's to midwife and assist Sophiology and the
                    Science of the Ninefold human being."

                    http://print.google.com/print/doc?isbn=0271022183

                    "The Moscow branch was called the Religious Philosophical Vladimir
                    Soloviev Society, after Russia's greatest philosopher. Soloviev
                    (1853-1900) preached an activist Christianity that would transfigure
                    the world and establish the Kingdom of God on Earth, a realm of pure
                    joy and love. He considered art a form of inspired prophecy and had
                    a special regard for lyric poetry, which he associated with Sophia
                    (Divine Wisdom) and romantic notions of "the eternal feminine"
                    (Goethe's phrase). "

                    Bradford comments;

                    There is a threefold structure to Poetry and three different soul
                    forces are used for the slow churning of chakra and focus when it
                    comes to poetry and Speech or Word Research. Lips, placed as they
                    are where Karma meets the road, where love contacts the world, is
                    also the position of the stream of sounds that focus themselves on
                    Lyric poetry. Steiner and ancient India had things which we hardly
                    understand today, except if I am standing before you as a speech
                    teacher or you have actual Eurythmy work before you, a thing called
                    COSMIC LYRIC.

                    COSMIC LYRIC is heart-Warmth tonal speech that rings almost like
                    song. If you imagine Koran or Yiddish singing of versus out over the
                    Mosques at night, but now raising tone and tonal sound focus into
                    deep cosmic imagery...You get true sense of Cosmic Lyric. However
                    Keats "Ode to a Nightingale" is so strikingly lyrical and Keats is
                    such a lyricist, we must say that Keats was dominated by the eternal
                    feminine. Steiner and any human understanding of Esoteric Speech
                    function outlines, Lyric-Dramatic and Epic. Discerning these and
                    understanding not only the Individual Sounds and Letters, but their
                    relation to how the human being is constructed and the soul forces
                    engaged is my specific task and expertise.

                    Soloviev:

                    "He believed that the poet's task was to bring Sophia down from
                    heaven by love and find forms to suit her essence. He considered
                    Beauty to be the carrier of the Idea, not in the Hegelian sense, the
                    reflection of an eternal Idea upon fleeting phenomena, but that
                    which incarnates a spiritual or divine principle in matter. He saw
                    nature as the body of Sophia and the flesh as something that should
                    not be denied but transfigured. In The Meaning of Love (1892-94),
                    Soloviev separated procreation and sexual pleasure and sanctioned
                    sexual pleasure as a means of overcoming egoism. His ideal human
                    being was androgynous, a tenet that can be interpreted either as
                    recommending bisexuality or as calling for the transcendence of
                    sexual relations in a transfigured world."

                    Bradford comments;

                    Steiner had to tackle Hegel as well even if we, slumbering Anthros
                    hardly get it at all. Hegel was Holderlin's ole buddy but one had to
                    get beyond the output of Hegel. Hegel blanketed the world withe a
                    kind of Liberal Free Mason cosmology. Steiner in his quarter of the
                    world saw Hegel and got beyond him and Soloviev in his quarter of
                    the world thought the same as Steiner, one had to find a way to see
                    the world beyond Hegel.

                    What we have in the history of insight and philosophy are
                    understanding real bursting issues that had changed the focus of
                    culture. We today have no understanding of the upstream source of
                    real issues and frankly, few of us take real interest in researching
                    what those upstream, Uptstream from our current Time, meaning
                    floating your little cognitive boat, upstream to find out where the
                    world was cracking and breaking and where the general ideas sourced
                    themselves from. Finding the sources of the Nile or finding the
                    sources of Time Stream Ideas is part of navigation and I AM
                    cognition and Steiner was an expert at it. Actual navigation of
                    streams of thought. This is exactly what German Soul Cognition was
                    all about and why Steiner chose the German Soul to incarnate in.

                    On this list we have discussed vividly the issue of Gay marriages,
                    and whole social surging of ideas that demand that we look upon
                    Love, Sex and identity in new ways. In fact we had to enter into
                    identity as an I AM reality, that transcended mere sexual
                    constructs.

                    Our Age is unconsciously stumbling around in these areas but have no
                    idea how Sophia, Reincarnation, Steiner and Soloviev are pointing to
                    the Cosmic, the STAR BEing of what Danny and I, and very few others
                    even understand, the Egyptian NUT. Indeed Sexual Revoltuion,
                    lesbian, gay, porn and the reality of brotherly and sisterly Love
                    must break down thousands of dogmatic doors.

                    I find it a speciif failure to understand Sophia without NUT- the
                    journey of the soul after death and even MAAT herself as intimate
                    to grasping how Sophiac and the new Objective Daughter construct of
                    all healthy souls, is defined as ANTHROSOPHIC. That means
                    constructing an objective Soul garment built on Spiritual Science
                    that Sophia will recognize when we cross the threshold and enter the
                    stars. Here again, Anthros blunder around as blind as bats unable to
                    navigate how Sophia is different than Michael.

                    **************************************
                    "Soloviev's most fundamental concept was "Godmanhood"
                    (Bogochelovechestvo), the incarnation of the divine idea in man (in
                    other words deification) and the salvation and transfiguration of
                    all humankind, not just righteous individuals. The antipode
                    of "Godmanhood" was demonic "Mangodhood." (Dostoevsky also
                    contrasted Godman and man-god.) Although Soloviev disapproved of
                    Nietzsche, he considered the Superman a religiously significant
                    idea, because it expressed a yearning to be more than
                    human. "Godmanhood" was related to Soloviev's concept of "total
                    unity" (vseedinstvo), the unity of being central to Orthodox
                    ontology. He rejected abstract Western philosophy, represented in
                    his early works by Hegel, in favor of an integral worldview, an all-
                    encompassing synthesis of philosophy, religion, science, and art. In
                    the 1880s, Soloviev advocated "free theocracy," a variant of the
                    Slavophile ideal of sobornost', to be instituted by the tsar and the
                    pope, for one of his goals was the reunion of the Christian
                    churches.

                    "In the 1890s, dismayed by the failure of his theocratic project,
                    Soloviev espoused a kind of liberalism. (The symbolists ignored this
                    aspect of his views.) Throughout, he advocated an activist
                    Christianity, one that would really change the world.

                    "In the last year of his life (1900), Soloviev predicted the
                    imminent advent of the Antichrist in a tale that portrayed him as a
                    composite figure with Nietzschean traits. Indeed, says the
                    narrator, "many called him a Superman." Dazzlingly beautiful, the
                    Antichrist uses science, magic, and technology to control nature (an
                    allusion to Fedorov) and ends the age-old scourges of hunger and
                    war. But he abolishes the distinction between good and evil, loves
                    only himself, and presumes to replace Christ, for his real
                    motivation is power.

                    "After the political and social problems have been solved, the
                    religious question comes to the fore. The Jews revolt when they
                    learn that he is not the Messiah after all (note the importance of
                    human agency); evil is vanquished; and the Millennium begins.
                    Soloviev's apocalypticism and his prophesy of pan-Mongolism (the
                    rule of the "yellow" races over the "white") influenced symbolist
                    political thought during the Russo-Japanese War, merging with other
                    apocalyptic visions, especially Merezhkovsky's Third Testament,
                    Wagner's Götterdämmerung, and Nietzsche's "great noontide": "One day
                    they shall proclaim with tongues of flame: It is coming, it is near,
                    the great noontide!" (Z, 192).

                    "Merezhkovsky's apocalypticism posited grand historical schemes
                    along the lines of a Hegelian dialectic, which he sometimes he
                    conflated with Nietzsche's idea of eternal recurrence, misunderstood
                    as historical cycles. Merezhkovsky's Christianity centered on Jesus;
                    Ivanov's was part of an amorphous "new religious synthesis."
                    Merezhkovsky's writing style was clear and simple, as befit his
                    proselytizing orientation; Ivanov's was turgid, esoteric, and
                    replete with neologisms that had Greek or Latin roots."
                    ************************************************************
                    Bradford;

                    Sorting out Michael and Sophia and finding the threads through
                    history and awakening ourselves to our current time is being able to
                    grasp fragments of Sophiology, Philosophy and navigate world ideas
                    with the new tools of Michael I AM navigation.

                    As I mentioned, I sort of just wandered into the realm of Russia and
                    the Russian soul once again. I find myself in the midst of the
                    heroic and passionate current savior of the Anthro Society, Sergei
                    Perkofiev and of course Gordienko and the mystery of Mereshkovsky's
                    Russia. If you enter into the great passion of the ideologies, we
                    undestand the passion and warmth Perkofiev has brought from his will
                    and Russian soul to the realm of adoring and sometimes thoughtless
                    fans in Anthro land. He has brought a Russian quality of Soul to sit
                    in roost over the Goetheanum.

                    Take Andrea, and the Italian quality of soul; or America and Joel or
                    Dottie's or Paulina or Deborah's quality of soul. Any and all of
                    these should be fairly understood at the heart of Spiritual Science.
                    Yet if we make an Idol, a new Messiah out of Prokofiev to suit our
                    Anthro weakness to be led instead of to share, we fail to understand
                    the quality of this young-at least our friend S.P.'s contribution.
                    Take Ben Aarron and his quality, all of them radiate from the
                    Michael School and weaving in all this, are wonderful works and
                    efforts. But we need not make Idols out of anyone, just call forth
                    thinking I AM's who participate in the world for the hopes that
                    Michael is offering.

                    But in any event, grasping the Star Nature of Sophia, the Objective
                    Thinking, Feeling, Willing model of the Soul structure, the
                    AnthroSophic daughter soul and understanding the nature of LYRIC,
                    Dramatic and Epic poetry, reveals actual spiritual paths. Real
                    forces of soul and real insights into the Science and pseudo science
                    that lead to or defy Sophia. We can remain true Watchers on the
                    Horizon, ALL ALONG THE WATCHTOWER as Dylan and Hendrix shouted to us.
                  • holderlin66
                    What Andreev proclaims as the decisive thesis for the Rose of the World, he also condemns as a blasphemous cult in the kingdom of the Antichrist, but it
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 30, 2004
                      "What Andreev proclaims as the "decisive thesis" for the Rose of the
                      World, he also condemns as a "blasphemous cult" in the kingdom of
                      the Antichrist, but it is the very same feminine principle,
                      polarized into "virgin" and "whore."

                      "Andreev's attempt to reconcile these two aspects in the image of
                      the Eternal Mother, who is both Sophia and Materiia, proved to be a
                      spiritually dangerous enterprise, since the opposition between these
                      two aspects should not be completely erased. As soon as the desired
                      synthesis of all-comprehensive femininity is achieved in the project
                      of the Rose of the World, it becomes subject to a new doubling, to
                      the materialization of a demonic and purely sensual femininity in
                      the kingdom of the Antichrist, and it is this theoretical irony that
                      ultimately undermines Andreev's theocratic utopia.

                      "Thus the mystical element of Andreev's doctrine, his veneration of
                      the feminine aspect of Divinity, comes into a very complicated and
                      controversial relationship with the eschatological element of his
                      doctrine, an apprehension of the "ritual debauchery" at the very
                      essence of the demonic "Anti-trinity." Andreev himself never
                      succeeded in overcoming this contradiction but, of all Russian
                      mystics, he most expressively testifies to its hidden ironies.

                      http://www.emory.edu/INTELNET/fi.andreev.html

                      "The Rose of the World is a multifaceted book exploring the
                      structure of all existing worlds, both visible and invisible,
                      ascending to Paradise and descending to Hell. The narration contains
                      a great many terms and expressions which cannot be found in any
                      dictionary -- they are defined in a special glossary following at
                      the end of the book. These words, says Andreev, were introduced by
                      supernatural voices into his consciousness and were rationalized by
                      him as signifying the principal elements of the transphysical
                      universe. For example, Andreev defined Bramfatura as the system of
                      different material levels comprising celestial bodies; Shadanakar is
                      the name of our planet's bramfatura consisting of a great number of
                      planes (more than 240) of different kinds of matter, with various
                      dimensions of time and space.

                      "Before materialism became an official doctrine, another femininely
                      oriented philosophy had been developing in Russia, the so-
                      called "sophiology." At the end of the 19th, and during the first
                      half of the 20th, century this concept was elaborated by Vladimir
                      Soloviev, Pavel Florensky, Sergei Bulgakov, and other thinkers who
                      considered the Russian soul to be especially attuned to Sophia,
                      Divine Wisdom. Both materiia and Sophia, they argued, characterized
                      the feminine element in the universe, but there is a major
                      difference between them: materiia is nature which gives birth to
                      living beings; Sophia is Divine Wisdom which generates nature
                      itself. In the Old Testament, Sophia (Hokhma in Hebrew) is portrayed
                      as follows:

                      The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works
                      of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever
                      the earth was.
                      [. . .] Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was
                      daily his delight, rejoicing always before him. . . ("Proverbs," 8:
                      22-23, 30-31).

                      Wisdom I loved; I sought her out when I was young and longed to win
                      her for my bride, and I fell in love with her beauty. She adds
                      lustre to her noble birth, because it is given her to live with God,
                      and the Lord of all things has accepted her ("The Wisdom of
                      Solomon," 8: 2-3).

                      Sophia, or Divine Wisdom, is a mysterious entity that, under
                      different names, is worshipped in several religious traditions:
                      pagan, Judaic, Gnostic, and Christian. In Greek polytheism, Sophia
                      is represented by chaste goddess of wisdom Athena, the daughter of
                      Zeus born directly from his head. In Christianity, Sophia converges
                      with the image of the Virgin Mary. The essential quality of Sophia-
                      wisdom is her chastity. In Russian, as in Greek, the term "chastity"
                      includes the root, "wisdom": tselomudrie literally means "whole
                      wisdom." The connection between wisdom and chastity is found in many
                      spiritual traditions.

                      A contemporary Russian scholar, Sergei Averintsev, emphasizes
                      that "according to the stable mythological pattern, widespread in
                      various Eurasian cultures, wisdom belongs to a virgin or, in fact,
                      wisdom is a virgin."

                      Materialism and sophiology in Russian thought share the same
                      mythological origin: both glorify the primary feminine elements of
                      existence, namely nature and wisdom. Sophia represents the virginal,
                      and materiia the maternal, aspects of this femininity. Both are
                      rooted in the deepest mythological archetypes of Russian thought as
                      the two pillars of feminine mysticism.

                      The Soviet intensification of materialism deepened the traditional
                      symbolic rift between the two conceptions of femininity.
                      Materialism, as propagated by Marxism-Leninism, is not merely the
                      glorification of the forces of materiia; in alliance with atheism,
                      it strives to tear materiia away from its divine origins, from
                      Sophia, and to submit it to the mastery of man.

                      Originally, the image of Sophia was ambiguous, as can be seen from
                      Thunder, Whole Mind, one of the writings found at Nag Hammadi in
                      1945 and probably written during the first century B.C. Here Sophia
                      manifests herself as both saint and whore. Gradually, however, these
                      aspects of the Feminine Divinity became increasingly distinct.

                      As I have indicated, Sophia was identified with the Holy Wisdom of
                      God and the immaculate Mother of God, the Eternal Virgin
                      (Prisnodeva). Thus the sophiological preference for chastity begins
                      to betray an ascetic bias, a one-sidedness for which materialism
                      strives to compensate. Virginity is in conflict with the fertile,
                      prolific forces of nature. Thus the other aspect of primordial
                      female Divinity--fertility and sensuality (called the fallen Sophia
                      by the gnostics)--is developed in materialist teachings, where it
                      acts as a counterbalance to virginity, eventually beginning to
                      overcompensate, moving into the excesses of dissipation.

                      Many Russian thinkers have lamented the internal division of the
                      Russian national character, which strains in two opposite
                      directions, ascetic/"angelic" and sensual/"animalistic", but seldom
                      succeeds in integrating spiritual and material impulses in a human
                      middle-ground. The same tragic split occurs within the feminine
                      elements of Russian culture; hence, an important task of
                      contemporary Russian thought is to resolve the historical antagonism
                      between the two philosophical tendencies of sophiology and
                      materialism.

                      Throughout his creative years, Daniil Andreev suffered under the
                      pressure of official Soviet ideology's "stubborn iron materialism,"
                      but his inner resistance to this mysticism of materiia did not push
                      him to the other extreme of bodiless spiritualism. Nature was the
                      center of his whole system, and he singled out a special category
                      of "elementals" (stikhiali ), spiritual entities which have an
                      elevating effect on the human soul and are embodied in such natural
                      elements (stikhii ) as rivers, trees, wind, and snow.

                      The double materialistic and sophiological context of Andreev's view
                      on femininity becomes clear from his short remark indicating the
                      whole spectrum of traditional Russian worship of the earth as mother
                      and as lover. "Earth is not only our mother; in some deeper sense
                      which still cannot be explicated, she is our lover. One should
                      remember the precept of Dostoevsky, who urged us to kiss the earth
                      constantly during every step." (Rose of the World, book 12, chapter
                      3, page 259).

                      Andreev attempts to elevate this "pagan" worship of the earth to the
                      highest level of Christian theology. The chapter "Femininity" in
                      Rose of the World treats this question in terms of the Holy Trinity.
                      Andreev considered himself Christian, but he dared to dispute the
                      doctrine of the Trinity:

                      "I am approaching the decisive thesis. . . The canonical gospels of
                      Matthew and Luke distinctly and clearly assume the conception of the
                      infant Jesus by the Virgin Mary from the Holy Spirit. Thus one can
                      conclude that it was the Holy Spirit and not God the Father who was
                      the father of the human Christ" (6,3, 119).

                      Andreev suggests that God the Father and the Holy Spirit are
                      essentially the same hypostasis of the Trinity. ". . . God the
                      Father is God the Holy Spirit - these are two names for the same
                      first face of the Trinity" (6, 3, 120).

                      The third hypostasis thus remains vacant. Andreev wants to fill it
                      with the "world's feminine essence." The Trinity, in Andreev's
                      interpretation, is nothing but the Father - Mother - Son. The
                      second, feminine hypostasis simultaneously represents eternal
                      virginity, maternity, spirit, and wisdom.

                      It is difficult to say whether Andreev was familiar with the ideas
                      of Anna Shmidt, Dmitri Merezhkovsky or Sergei Bulgakov. Anna Shmidt
                      (1851-1905) has postulated in her treatise "The Third Testament"
                      (1886?) that the third hypostasis of God is "God's Daughter, the
                      Eternal Virgin."

                      Merezhkovsky did not deny that the Holy Spirit is God's third
                      hypostasis, but he claimed it to be feminine and identical to the
                      Holy Mother, the symbol union of divine spirit and earthly flesh.
                      Bulgakov developed sophiology as a specific division within Eastern
                      theology but his deliberately vague doctrine of Sophia as a separate
                      hypostasis outside the Trinity was condemned by the Orthodox
                      hierarchy (1935), even though Bulgakov did not assert directly that
                      Sophia is the fourth hypostasis of Divinity. It is likely that
                      Church authorities censured sophiology as heresy because it seemed
                      to pattern the Trinity after a trivial family union and it
                      introduced seductive sexual elements into the dogmatic core of
                      Christianity.

                      Indeed, the mysterious essence of the Trinity is undermined when the
                      Mother of God is substituted for the Holy Spirit. The concept of the
                      Holy Spirit may have derived from the concept of Hokhma, or Divine
                      Wisdom in the Old Testament. But when the "second" hypostasis of the
                      Son was incorporated into the concept of God in the New Testament,
                      the "third" hypostasis had to be revised and purified of any
                      feminine elements in order to avoid any associations with an earthly
                      family structure. Thus the divine wisdom of the Old Testament could
                      become the Holy Spirit of the New Testament."
                    • Deborah
                      This is amazing material. I was also deeply touched by your previous post on Julian the Apostate. One bit I find interesting regarding the dichotomy of the
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 30, 2004
                        This is amazing material. I was also deeply touched by your previous
                        post on Julian the Apostate.

                        One bit I find interesting regarding the dichotomy of the virgin vs
                        the sensual woman is the Grail Knights in Parsifal. They are married,
                        happily so. Parsifal himself, if I remember rightly, marries. There
                        is no rejection of human sexuality nor a glorification of celibacy as
                        essential to a spiritual path.

                        Anyway, thanks for sharing all this great Russian material.

                        Deborah
                      • dottie zold
                        Bradford, can you sing me your song of Sophia? Can you break it down to Sophia and nothing else? Can you sing a song of Sophia? d
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 30, 2004
                          Bradford, can you sing me your song of Sophia? Can you break it down
                          to Sophia and nothing else? Can you sing a song of Sophia?

                          d
                        • holderlin66
                          As a poet I enjoy thinking and I enjoy showing interest in what depths of wisdom others have fathomed regarding Sophia. I m certainly not going to suggest that
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 30, 2004
                            As a poet I enjoy thinking and I enjoy showing interest in what
                            depths of wisdom others have fathomed regarding Sophia. I'm
                            certainly not going to suggest that slooshing around in the world of
                            Sophia will get you to understand the advanced poetics, outline and
                            extension of Sophia inspirations. Encountering and researching
                            Sophia on this list, has mainly been done by Deborah, Danny, You and
                            I.

                            Lyric poetry and living knowledge of Poetics and how the lips and
                            why the lips are placed at the surface of the face and in the sound
                            region at the forward placement, has enormously rich insights
                            connected to them. I wonder if anyone has even read a Keats poem.

                            The amount of research and study I do on Sophia and connecting it to
                            the Russian soul of Perkofiev and understanding his frame of
                            reference coming from the roots of Russia is astonishing enough for
                            now. I hardly see the work done by those who claim to be so
                            passionate about Sophia showing any signs that they grasp the extent
                            of who and what Sophia does.

                            What part does the Holy Ghost Play?
                            What part does the Initiation of Parsifal play?
                            What part does NUT play?
                            What part does Objective Soul structure from AnthroSophic play?
                            How does Michael and the Michael School prepare the Sophia in the
                            soul of humanity?
                            How does Repro-technology and reproduction and GM play into
                            understanding Sophia?
                            What is the Whore of Babylon in relation to Sophia?
                            How will Sophia proctect and work with I AM's if Ahrimanic cloning
                            is developed?
                            What poets represent lyric thinking and art?
                            What is the difference between Novalis and Lazarus in relation to
                            Sophia?
                            How does the ninefold being of the human psyche become the Child of
                            sophia?
                            What does this have to do with Star knowledge and human incarnation?

                            I see very little effort at researching into those who have been the
                            best spokes people on Sophia. Russians and the future of the 6th
                            epoch is way out in time and who knows what Earth changes or
                            catastrophes will proceed this. When I place Cherynobl as a
                            destructive core for 900 years in Russia, what type of damage in
                            waste and soil poisoning will Russia present, will these be Dead
                            Zones? Or will Siberia awaken as a Tropic region? When I imagine the
                            6th epoch arising in Russia, it would seem there is ample amount of
                            fascinating potential to have those who wish to embrace Sophia to
                            find various profound threads to explore.

                            The Michael School asks of its members to show active study and
                            interest in themes...The poetic muse doesn't come because a student
                            of Sophiology swims in adoration without deepened grasp and wants to
                            be sung to by all those poets who do do their homework.

                            I would be highly interested in the person Raymon indicated whose
                            name was BEoft something. I would be very interested if you grasped
                            or showed me some of Beofts insights or whoever the guy was, and
                            what his relation to Goethe was and why he doesn't talk to Anthros
                            anymore. I would like to understand that. Why don't you look up the
                            gentleman Raymon suggested and present some observations I can work
                            with to see how he misunderstood Goetheanism?

                            Like you, I certainly don't feel compelled to do homework that
                            others assign me unless I am interested and inspired to do so. My
                            wife, Susan Riley was the chief researcher of Sophiology and started
                            at least one of the sites concerning Sophia. With Robert Powell, she
                            did many conferences and searched for souls over the globe who
                            represented Sophiology.
                          • dottie zold
                            Bradford: I hardly see the work done by those who claim ... But She wants to hear your song Bradford. It is never enough that we share her with others we must
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 30, 2004
                              Bradford:
                              I hardly see the work done by those who claim
                              > to be so
                              > passionate about Sophia showing any signs that they
                              > grasp the extent
                              > of who and what Sophia does.

                              But She wants to hear your song Bradford. It is never
                              enough that we share her with others we must also
                              share her with ourselves. All that you have written
                              below is great but it is not a song. What does your
                              heart know of Sophia? What do you feel about her? Why
                              do you feel the way you do about her? What in you
                              aches to experience her, to know her, to see her.

                              We can look at her from the standpoint you offer and
                              this leads us but we need to 'hear' of her through the
                              hearts that have experienced her. It will lead us to
                              our intuitions of her and it is there she will meet
                              us. And we shall know her as she knows us. We shall be
                              within the Godhead, the Womb when we meet. The rest
                              will fall in place as we seek her with words.

                              Love, d










                              > What part does the Holy Ghost Play?
                              > What part does the Initiation of Parsifal play?
                              > What part does NUT play?
                              > What part does Objective Soul structure from
                              > AnthroSophic play?
                              > How does Michael and the Michael School prepare the
                              > Sophia in the
                              > soul of humanity?
                              > How does Repro-technology and reproduction and GM
                              > play into
                              > understanding Sophia?
                              > What is the Whore of Babylon in relation to Sophia?
                              > How will Sophia proctect and work with I AM's if
                              > Ahrimanic cloning
                              > is developed?
                              > What poets represent lyric thinking and art?
                              > What is the difference between Novalis and Lazarus
                              > in relation to
                              > Sophia?
                              > How does the ninefold being of the human psyche
                              > become the Child of
                              > sophia?
                              > What does this have to do with Star knowledge and
                              > human incarnation?
                              >
                              > I see very little effort at researching into those
                              > who have been the
                              > best spokes people on Sophia. Russians and the
                              > future of the 6th
                              > epoch is way out in time and who knows what Earth
                              > changes or
                              > catastrophes will proceed this. When I place
                              > Cherynobl as a
                              > destructive core for 900 years in Russia, what type
                              > of damage in
                              > waste and soil poisoning will Russia present, will
                              > these be Dead
                              > Zones? Or will Siberia awaken as a Tropic region?
                              > When I imagine the
                              > 6th epoch arising in Russia, it would seem there is
                              > ample amount of
                              > fascinating potential to have those who wish to
                              > embrace Sophia to
                              > find various profound threads to explore.
                              >
                              > The Michael School asks of its members to show
                              > active study and
                              > interest in themes...The poetic muse doesn't come
                              > because a student
                              > of Sophiology swims in adoration without deepened
                              > grasp and wants to
                              > be sung to by all those poets who do do their
                              > homework.
                              >
                              > I would be highly interested in the person Raymon
                              > indicated whose
                              > name was BEoft something. I would be very interested
                              > if you grasped
                              > or showed me some of Beofts insights or whoever the
                              > guy was, and
                              > what his relation to Goethe was and why he doesn't
                              > talk to Anthros
                              > anymore. I would like to understand that. Why don't
                              > you look up the
                              > gentleman Raymon suggested and present some
                              > observations I can work
                              > with to see how he misunderstood Goetheanism?
                              >
                              > Like you, I certainly don't feel compelled to do
                              > homework that
                              > others assign me unless I am interested and inspired
                              > to do so. My
                              > wife, Susan Riley was the chief researcher of
                              > Sophiology and started
                              > at least one of the sites concerning Sophia. With
                              > Robert Powell, she
                              > did many conferences and searched for souls over the
                              > globe who
                              > represented Sophiology.
                              >
                              >
                              >





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                            • holderlin66
                              dottie zold wrote: She wants to hear your song Bradford. It is never ... Dottie; Sometimes you press the patience of Job. I consider this gas balloon of
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 1, 2004
                                dottie zold wrote:

                                She wants to hear your song Bradford. It is never
                                > enough that we share her with others we must also
                                > share her with ourselves. All that you have written
                                > below is great but it is not a song. What does your
                                > heart know of Sophia? What do you feel about her? Why
                                > do you feel the way you do about her? What in you
                                > aches to experience her, to know her, to see her.

                                Dottie;

                                Sometimes you press the patience of Job. I consider this gas balloon
                                of feeling life, unpenetrated by Michael thought, swirling in a
                                Burka of dervish Godhead reverie, nothing to do with the grounded
                                nature of Spiritual Science. I don't expect I am worthy for personal
                                interviews with the godhead. Let me express it bluntly. Not one of
                                us here is worthy of getting personal interviews with the godhead.
                                Steiner has presented the facts of why this so and with these fact
                                we should be able to pin-point our own developmental positions. It
                                is called Self Knowledge.

                                Thinking - Feeling and Willing are a trinity. When presented with a
                                massive download of Russian research and insights, this is all you
                                can add to it.. Feel Sophia inside you? You don't even know what
                                this feeling is. For you it has swirled around Magadalene as the
                                true Core of Reality, as the one the Father truly loves and Christ
                                adores more than others because of her sterling feeling life. And I
                                happen to love Magdalene's myth and more connect this to the
                                greatness of Corelli.

                                If you have followed Frank's wonderful translation of Myriam, such a
                                gutsy fighter, certainly, must past through many trials of soul
                                before she can Swirl in Divine Sentimentality. For by then, it is
                                not sentimentality it is awakened organs of perception that link
                                Feeling with the Endocrine system. The topic of Aphrodite and the
                                Endocrine system has been presented over and over again even in
                                relation to Seeing Venus, in the Christian Rosenkreuz mystery. It
                                has been avoided just as many times. Read my lips. Endocrine system.

                                Pineal and Pituitary endorphins and swirly feelings with out
                                directed conscious intuition is not Michael School method. Thought
                                leads feeling that is POF 101. God doesn't come down, this over used
                                phrase by every fundie, god doesn't come down and talk to you or
                                George Bush. Angel can do this and so can your higher being. I
                                mentioned recently that the Angels are working feverishling against
                                the Ahrimanic Deception... good grief. Standing before such a
                                lecture like "The Angels Work in the Astral body of Man" or
                                following the participation of the Angel in placing a human soul in
                                Language and Nurturing, Mothering, and Nurturing the Child through
                                their destiny...Angel-Angel-Angel.

                                To actually hear what you refuse to hear over and over again is that
                                for Christ to bear the Father God, he was terribly alone as his
                                entire bone system was infused, as the Seraphim, Cherubim and
                                Thrones shivered their fire into the prepared condition of TWO GREAT
                                INITIATES and an ELOHIM. That ain't us. Let's get real around here.

                                Holy Ghost, as well as ANGEL-Archangel-Archai is a part of those
                                Tongues of inspired flame you are hoping will leap out of poets
                                hearts and minds, the minute you mention that you are the true flame
                                of Sophia on Earth.

                                So, am I totally off base in my grasp of how you or my wife, Susan
                                Riley were the torch bearers of Sophia on planet Earth? Because, as
                                you know, I am the demented poets torch bearer on Earth for demented
                                cast aways of the Michael School. So we really need to compare notes
                                here. Lets ask Mike our resident shrink? He is used to handling
                                tough cases, his own biography has been a tough case, but I do
                                admire his realism.
                              • dottie zold
                                ... demented ... notes ... Oh Bradford.......... you are totally off base with how I am thinking and feeling on this subject. And I guess the email way of
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 1, 2004
                                  Bradford:
                                  > So, am I totally off base in my grasp of how you or my wife, Susan
                                  > Riley were the torch bearers of Sophia on planet Earth? Because, as
                                  > you know, I am the demented poets torch bearer on Earth for
                                  demented
                                  > cast aways of the Michael School. So we really need to compare
                                  notes
                                  > here.

                                  Oh Bradford.......... you are totally off base with how I am thinking
                                  and feeling on this subject. And I guess the email way of
                                  communicating has a lot to do with it. But that is okay. I am not a
                                  torch bearer of Sophia rather I am a lover of Sophia. I am thinking
                                  through my questioning of 'share me a song of Sophia' I will find
                                  others who have experienced her and my soul will light up with even
                                  more hope as the fire spreads.

                                  Your post regarding my experience of Magdalene is way off as well as
                                  my experience of why her relationship was special to Christ. I mean
                                  it had to be, there is no way around it but that is another point and
                                  post. And, Bradford, you have no idea what the capacity is of the
                                  people you are interacting with on line. You may claim for yourself
                                  the things you project ontowards me, not meaning that in a negative
                                  manner, but that is your story and not mine. You don't think one can
                                  intuit/feel/experience the Godhead? What do you think happens when
                                  you are meditating on the Doctors verses? Or rather what do you
                                  imagine can happen? It is not an all or nothing point Brad, rather it
                                  is an ongoing stream that weaves throughout all of incarnations.

                                  I shall look to the points you bring up after my walk but I have to
                                  say it reminds me of the fundies and their claim to be low life
                                  sinners. Well, I say to them, 'go ahead' and I shall recognize my
                                  birthright as a child of God'. So, if you are judging what you think
                                  would show one is capable of doing or experiencing or knowing a thing
                                  you make a huge mistake.

                                  Till later,
                                  Dottie

                                  p.s. Why would it be so hard for you, oh great poet of Michael, to
                                  sing a song of Sophia? Are you denying my experience while not having
                                  any of your own? The patience of Job has naught to do with it rather
                                  I am asking you to get real. And your dancing around the subject
                                  versus singing your song speaks volumes. Words sometimes get in the
                                  way of allowing us to experience a thing. We are good talking about
                                  it but what about experiencing it?

                                  psst. and towards the Myriam remark, I shall give you a pass. Maybe.
                                • dottie zold
                                  ... I agree. Yet, I feel compelled to call Sophia s voice forward from those who have experienced Her Essense. (I like caps, again) Bradford: I consider this
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 1, 2004
                                    Bradford:
                                    > Sometimes you press the patience of Job.

                                    I agree. Yet, I feel compelled to call Sophia's voice forward from
                                    those who have experienced Her Essense. (I like caps, again)


                                    Bradford:
                                    I consider this gas balloon
                                    > of feeling life, unpenetrated by Michael thought, swirling in a
                                    > Burka of dervish Godhead reverie, nothing to do with the grounded
                                    > nature of Spiritual Science.

                                    And that is fine. But if you knew Sophia like I know Sophia, a song
                                    in there somewhere:) you would know it has to do directly with the
                                    streams of Gnostics, Rosicruicians, Anthroposophia specifically. And
                                    Michael, being the mightiest son of Sophia, according to Mr.
                                    Prokofieff, mediates this offering in possibly the same manner as was
                                    when He was the countanence of the OT and that of the NT. I like the
                                    trio of ChristMichaelSophia and that is how I experience them almost
                                    as One in a sense.

                                    And if we look at this oneness it seems, and I am not sure I
                                    completely can state it from Dr.Steiners Isis Sophia Maria book, it
                                    it because they come from the same lineage of the star the Gnostics
                                    were able to experience. If we completely get past the historic
                                    aspects of the Golgatha event and contemplate on that which was
                                    before the beginning Dr. Steiner says we come to a star and from this
                                    star is the lineage of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Sophia.

                                    I am of the Gnostic stream Bradford as was Jacob Boehme, Soliviev and
                                    others. I do not only get the physical word of it, although I am not
                                    able to express it back to you, but I get the beginningness and that
                                    is why I am at home in left field so to speak. My intuitions lead
                                    directly to the spirit connections and I 'feel' them or experience
                                    them. And it is not like you, and it is not better than you but it is
                                    different than your way. I am learning to get it your way are you
                                    learning to get it my way? I ask as you are committed that one can
                                    not experience the Godhead and Sophia and so forth, yet you are aware
                                    that we are working towards Spirit Man. No matter how far off this
                                    may be the seeds have been sown and are sprouting here and there. Not
                                    just in words but also in Intuition and Inspiration.

                                    Bradford:
                                    I don't expect I am worthy for personal
                                    > interviews with the godhead.

                                    It's not an interview Bradford. It's an experience without words
                                    without thought just love and bliss. So much so that ones body caves
                                    in almost as this happens or at least it seems to as the body does
                                    not seem capable of handling that kind of bliss, almost as if the
                                    spirit must leave it in order for the vibration or whatever it is
                                    that happens to it. I don't think the spirit can stay in the body and
                                    experience the Godhead. So no interview.

                                    Bradford:
                                    Let me express it bluntly. Not one of
                                    > us here is worthy of getting personal interviews with the godhead.

                                    No interviews.

                                    Bradford:
                                    > Steiner has presented the facts of why this so and with these fact
                                    > we should be able to pin-point our own developmental positions. It
                                    > is called Self Knowledge.

                                    And it is different for each of us. Although those on a similar path
                                    will experience possibly similar moments of recognition. Are you
                                    saying that Dr. Steiner says all of us are unable to experience
                                    living within the Godhead? As well can you please direct me towards
                                    the lecture where he speaks of such a thing. I realize we are
                                    watching out for deception and so forth and must always however this
                                    does not negate the experiences of those that have experienced this.
                                    It almost reminds me of my born again Christian friends who say that
                                    any vision or inspiration I came across must be from the devil,
                                    deception, as only certain people, particulary Priests of the church.
                                    Male priests.

                                    Bradford:
                                    Feel Sophia inside you? You don't even know what this feeling is.

                                    Actually Bradford, it is you who has no idea what this feeling is or
                                    you would have recognized it within me. You did not and do not. And
                                    you do not even think it possible. How do you suppose she can enter
                                    into the recesses of your heart when you deny Her so? It is not
                                    possible. She will keep walking the streets looking in vein for those
                                    who dare to have a real relationship with her.

                                    Not only do I know this feeling, I have seen Her. And it is the most
                                    awespiring vision one can have just about. It is exactly as Deborah
                                    posted earlier. I posted about it at the Ark a few years back. Which
                                    is interesting for me as I read your posts on different points of
                                    Soliviev and so forth as I came to this a few years back. I was not
                                    able to put it in words but come to it I did. I almost feel as if I
                                    am watching the world catch up to what I found while seeking abouts
                                    the Ark.


                                    Bradford:
                                    For you it has swirled around Magadalene as the true Core of Reality,

                                    Bradford, it is the stream Magdalene represents. And you should know
                                    that by now with all your talk. Mabye if you decided to sense into
                                    Magdalene versus talking about her and explicating her you might
                                    understand and then if you are open enough she leads you to Sophia.

                                    She is the daughter representation of Sophia. She is the
                                    representative of Anthroposophia no matter how backwards that may
                                    sound. And if you look to see you will know of what I speak. She is
                                    not soley the Virgin Mother or Mother Mary. She is the three in one
                                    and Magdalene is included in this. I can not do anything to make it
                                    so, it is by itself. And a further mystery shall show itself before I
                                    pass from this life. I do not know by whom but I know it will be
                                    told.

                                    And she is not core, she is of the trinity. She is a part of the
                                    core. Just as Jesus was inhabited so was Magdalene.

                                    Bradford:
                                    as the one the Father truly loves and Christ
                                    > adores more than others because of her sterling feeling life.

                                    Wrong. The Father loves all. The Father isn't even anyway in the
                                    manner you speak. I do not say the Father loved her more than the
                                    others. I say Jesus loved her more than the others and it is clear in
                                    the Nag Hammadi. And it is not like a love as we experience rather it
                                    is a love because she understood Him not because of any other thing.
                                    The love was unto the enlightment not the physical kind of love. The
                                    kiss was the sharing of knowledge not the physical kiss. Would you
                                    deny that she knew more than the others? Can you? Who knew more in
                                    your mind? And no it was not a Lazarus. And she knew before even a
                                    Lazarus was spoken of.

                                    Bradford:
                                    And I
                                    > happen to love Magdalene's myth and more connect this to the
                                    > greatness of Corelli.

                                    It is not a myth it is a happening.

                                    Bradford:
                                    > If you have followed Frank's wonderful translation of Myriam, such
                                    a
                                    > gutsy fighter, certainly, must past through many trials of soul
                                    > before she can Swirl in Divine Sentimentality.

                                    What is Divine Sentimentality? And of course, just like
                                    the 'stepmother' or as the stepmother, she brought these from the
                                    lives past and transformed them at this particular point in time. And
                                    in all actuallity I believe they were already transformed before this
                                    particular point in time. That it was a living out for the witnessing
                                    of the Christs descent.


                                    Bradford:
                                    It has been avoided just as many times. Read my lips. Endocrine
                                    system.

                                    Bradford, I don't understand your point on this. Maybe others do and
                                    then I would wonder if they did why they did not say something.


                                    Bradford:
                                    > Pineal and Pituitary endorphins and swirly feelings with out
                                    > directed conscious intuition is not Michael School method.

                                    If you are referring to me and this 'swirly feeling' thing I have to
                                    say this is not my experience. It is very grounded. It was denied
                                    many times till I finally came to understand what was happening and
                                    was able to see how it was all laying out before me, including
                                    Christian Rosenkrutz. And I am watching it little by little come
                                    together.

                                    And I care not a whit for our understandings of Michael School method
                                    as if you are the say all be all to this point. Michael works in many
                                    ways and his ways are not our ways. You would have no idea with whom
                                    he works and how. I care not a whit for your claims on this.

                                    And now I ask for your Michael experiences Bradford. For one who
                                    writes much I ask very little. Just look inside your heart and bring
                                    them out. And if you come back to me one more time with 'oh your
                                    swirly dervish fishy whatever I will say again your silence speaks
                                    tomes.

                                    Bradford:
                                    Thought
                                    > leads feeling that is POF 101.

                                    And what lead thought Bradford? What is it that leads thought? Whose
                                    are we Bradford? Whose?

                                    Bradford:
                                    God doesn't come down, this over used
                                    > phrase by every fundie, god doesn't come down and talk to you or
                                    > George Bush.

                                    God manifests Itself all the time. Messages are sent and are seen
                                    everywhere by those who can see them and hear them. Even Christ says
                                    for those who have ears to hear, hear ye, and those who have eyes to
                                    see, see ye. God does speak to us Bradford even through the ants in
                                    Hindu literature. We are not speaking of 'Dottie, stop picking on
                                    Peter and Tarjei'. So, if this is what you are envisioning of my
                                    meaning you are not correct.

                                    Bradford:
                                    I
                                    > mentioned recently that the Angels are working feverishling against
                                    > the Ahrimanic Deception... good grief.

                                    Yeah yea yeah Bradford. Me and Ahriman are hanging out together with
                                    Sophia and Michael having a few buds.(beer) You sound just like a
                                    fundie with the judgement on who can have the Sophia experience and
                                    God experience. Christ JEsus told us we are children of God and he is
                                    our Father. And my take is the body aspect but then again I know that
                                    gets me in trouble but the Doctor alludes to this as well if not
                                    coming straight out and saying it.

                                    Ahriman is not hanging out in my house Bradford. It seems you are the
                                    one who went and bought the lie that you can not have these
                                    experiences I am talking about. Hmmm.

                                    Bradford:
                                    Standing before such a
                                    > lecture like "The Angels Work in the Astral body of Man" or
                                    > following the participation of the Angel in placing a human soul in
                                    > Language and Nurturing, Mothering, and Nurturing the Child through
                                    > their destiny...Angel-Angel-Angel.

                                    And who is the Angel working for Brad? Anyone we know? Whew.


                                    Bradford:
                                    > To actually hear what you refuse to hear over and over again is
                                    that
                                    > for Christ to bear the Father God, he was terribly alone as his
                                    > entire bone system was infused, as the Seraphim, Cherubim and
                                    > Thrones shivered their fire into the prepared condition of TWO
                                    GREAT
                                    > INITIATES and an ELOHIM.

                                    What the hell are you talking about? I won't hear this? Says who?

                                    Bradford:
                                    That ain't us. Let's get real around here.

                                    Yup, your a fundie of a different nature it seems. You will block the
                                    door but not enter. Go through the door Brad experience your
                                    birthright as a child of God.


                                    Bradford:
                                    > Holy Ghost, as well as ANGEL-Archangel-Archai is a part of those
                                    > Tongues of inspired flame you are hoping will leap out of poets
                                    > hearts and minds, the minute you mention that you are the true
                                    flame
                                    > of Sophia on Earth.

                                    Nope. Not it. I was just wanting to inspire you to share your Sophia
                                    experience so we could meet one another. That's all. I melt when I
                                    hear others who speak on her.

                                    And I do not really know what you mean by saying 'one is a true flame
                                    of Sophia'...what do you mean by this. Do you think I am claiming I
                                    am one with Sophia or whathave you? I am in the service of Michael,
                                    Brad, and Christ. It is Sophia I am seeking in consequence of this. I
                                    found Christ, Michael and now Sophia. It just deepens my life and
                                    allows me to keep deepening it and hopefully till the time it is for
                                    me to go back home.

                                    Bradford:
                                    Lets ask Mike our resident shrink? He is used to handling
                                    > tough cases, his own biography has been a tough case, but I do
                                    > admire his realism.

                                    Hmm. Do you know my biography Bradford? And if you did or even take
                                    in a few of the things I mentioned on the Ark you would have a pretty
                                    good idea how it is that Christ came to me and why it is that I am
                                    able to experience Him in the manner I have shared before. I am that
                                    reverent child that Dr. Steiner speaks of in How To Know Higher
                                    Worlds. He spoke my life experiences as that which is needed to
                                    experience the higher worlds. I have not experienced the higher
                                    worlds per se, I have however experienced Christ Michael and Sophia.

                                    Dottie
                                  • dottie zold
                                    ... Dear Braford, last night I could not find a way to express why it was that I continue to press the question at times. And this morning I remembered the
                                    Message 17 of 20 , May 2, 2004
                                      Bradford:
                                      > > Sometimes you press the patience of Job.


                                      Dear Braford, last night I could not find a way to express why it was
                                      that I continue to press the question at times. And this morning I
                                      remembered the 'feeling' of when I first posed the question: I
                                      experienced a longing for Sophia to 'experience' our seeking Her out.
                                      It became a sob in my throat to show Her our love and in that I asked
                                      the question.

                                      I remember being on the Ark and experiencing Her there, and, Her
                                      almost seeking others out. And at times I would almost feel like I
                                      had the biggest secret in the whole world that wanted to be shared.
                                      But there were no takers. Well, that is wrong, there was Harvey,
                                      Catherine, Danny and Charlie for the most part and Stevie Zimm. And
                                      for the most part I did not know how to express it. It was Catherine
                                      that was able to slowly encourage it out of me. I mean I did not even
                                      know that Dr. STeiners group was the initiative for this Sophia: the
                                      hope of the world. I remember Catherine asking the question of our
                                      Angel of sorts or maybe it was Jerry but the point was the discussion
                                      of whom we felt guided America or even the Arks existance. I recall
                                      Catherines comments about her Angel in a sense and I remember this
                                      distinct feeling it was Sophia, and I did not even know Her then. But
                                      the beauty of what Catherine brought was that I realized I did indeed
                                      have this connection with this Sophia, whatever she has to do with
                                      Dr. STeiner,but I did not understand it until she fully showed
                                      herself to me. And whoa that is a big one. But She is still a small
                                      one in the Anthroposophic stream it seems so far. Maybe it's because,
                                      as a few people have mentioned, this is not the time. But that is not
                                      true for all of us.

                                      So, it was with a longing from within me to share with Sophia how
                                      much we love Her and seek Her. It wasn't about showing 'hey I am a
                                      flame or whathave you of Sophia, it was for Her. But I guess you did
                                      not get that.

                                      Dottie
                                    • Jo Ann Schwartz
                                      ... Dear Bradford, Well, no doubt you are correct, sir. There is [n]ot one of us here worthy of getting personal interviews with the godhead. And yet... And
                                      Message 18 of 20 , May 2, 2004
                                        --- Bradford wrote:
                                        > I don't expect I am worthy for personal
                                        > interviews with the godhead. Let me express it bluntly. Not one of
                                        > us here is worthy of getting personal interviews with the godhead.
                                        > Steiner has presented the facts of why this so and with these fact
                                        > we should be able to pin-point our own developmental positions. It
                                        > is called Self Knowledge.

                                        Dear Bradford,

                                        Well, no doubt you are correct, sir. There is "[n]ot one of us here worthy of
                                        getting personal interviews with the godhead."

                                        And yet...
                                        And yet....

                                        Is there no room in your spiritual science for the mystery of Grace?

                                        In wonder,
                                        JoAnn










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                                      • holderlin66
                                        ... Grace? ... Well as my dear brother, Bruce Almighty said to George Burns, say Good Night Gracie . Great Gracie was at bat, Michael School 3; Legion 23:
                                        Message 19 of 20 , May 2, 2004
                                          Jo Ann Schwartz wrote:

                                          > Is there no room in your spiritual science for the mystery of
                                          Grace?
                                          >
                                          > In wonder,
                                          > JoAnn

                                          Well as my dear brother, "Bruce Almighty" said to George Burns, "say
                                          Good Night Gracie". Great Gracie was at bat, Michael School 3;
                                          Legion 23: It was the 5th Inning and Gracie came to bat. Infield
                                          hits, bunts, and too many outs, nobody on base. I always liked the
                                          underdawgs. Well if we see our team work shared over the globe, with
                                          our shabby little RS hats, old mitts, worn out cleats..I guess it's
                                          the only team I would root for. But then I'm a Lord of the Rings
                                          fan.

                                          While our fully funded flashy Corporate opponents all look like
                                          Cheshire cats: Say, JoAnn, just thinking outloud here, if we had
                                          roughly 700 semi-functioning Waldorf Schools and various other
                                          Anthro works over the globe, what do we think the estimated budgets
                                          of all those striving works amount to in relation to, let say the
                                          following examples?

                                          700 X $100,000.00 or $200,000.00. Another say, 200 centers, with
                                          maybe $25,000.00..What is our rough global budget? Now, who can
                                          measure grace against the numbers? I am curious just what the bottom
                                          line, might look like. Plus the investment of thousands and
                                          thousands of hearts, who with child or hope in hand call out for
                                          Divine Aid. Call forth with their incarnation and their children's
                                          incarnations, new schools, teachers and salaries.


                                          THE OTHER GUYS:

                                          "The military-academic complex is merely one of many readily
                                          perceptible, but largely ignored, examples of the increasing
                                          militarization of American society. While the Pentagon has long
                                          sought to exploit and exert influence over civilian cultural
                                          institutions, from academia to the entertainment industry, today's
                                          massive budgets make its power increasingly irresistible. The
                                          Pentagon now has both the money and the muscle to alter the
                                          landscape of higher education, to manipulate research agendas, to
                                          change the course of curricula and to force schools to play by its
                                          rules.

                                          Moreover, the military research underway on college campuses across
                                          America has very real and dangerous implications for the future. It
                                          will enable or enhance imperial adventures in decades to come; it
                                          will lead to new lethal technologies to be wielded against peoples
                                          across the globe; it will feed a superpower arms race of one, only
                                          increasing the already vast military asymmetry between the United
                                          States and everyone else; it will make ever-more heavily armed,
                                          technologically-equipped, and "up-armored" U.S. war-fighters ever
                                          less attractive adversaries and American and allied civilians much
                                          more appealing soft targets for America's enemies. None of this,
                                          however, enters the realm of debate. Instead, the Pentagon rolls
                                          along, doling out money to colleges large and small, expanding and
                                          strengthening the military-academic complex, and remaking civilian
                                          institutions to suit military desires as if this were but the
                                          natural way of the world."

                                          http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0428-08.htm

                                          "In 1958, the Department of Defense spent an already impressive $91
                                          million in support of "academic research." By 1964, the sum had
                                          reached $258 million and by 1970, in the midst of the Vietnam War,
                                          $266 million. By 2003, however, any of these numbers, or even their
                                          $615 million total, was dwarfed by the Pentagon's prime contract
                                          awards to just two schools, the Massachusetts Institute of
                                          Technology and Johns Hopkins University which, together, raked in a
                                          combined total of $842,437,294.

                                          War-Making U or U Make War?

                                          As it turns out, the military and the Department of Defense (DoD)
                                          have an entire system of education and training institutions and
                                          organizations of their own, including the many schools of the
                                          National Defense University system (NDU): the National War College,
                                          the Industrial College of the Armed Forces, the School for National
                                          Security Executive Education, the Joint Forces Staff College, and
                                          the Information Resources Management College as well as the Defense
                                          Acquisition University, the Joint Military Intelligence College --
                                          open only to "U.S. citizens in the armed forces and in federal
                                          civilian service who hold top secret/SCI (Sensitive Compartmented
                                          Information) clearances" -- the Defense Language Institute Foreign
                                          Language Center, the Naval Postgraduate School, the Naval War
                                          College, Air University, the Air Force Institute of Technology, the
                                          Marine Corps University and the Uniformed Services University of the
                                          Health Sciences, among others. In fact, scholar Chalmers Johnson has
                                          noted in his new book on American militarism, The Sorrows of Empire,
                                          that there are approximately 150 military-educational institutions
                                          in the U.S.

                                          While the service academies train a youthful corps of tomorrow's
                                          military officers, enrolled in the schools of the National Defense
                                          University are a group of selected commissioned officers, with
                                          approximately 20 years of service, and civilian officials from
                                          various agencies, including the Department of Defense, who are
                                          schooled in a curriculum that emphasizes "the development and
                                          implementation of national security strategy and military strategy,
                                          mobilization, acquisition, management of resources, information and
                                          information technology for national security, and planning for joint
                                          and combined operations." Further, good old' NDU sustains the golden-
                                          triangle military agencies, the high technology industry, and
                                          research universities by "promot[ing] understanding and teamwork
                                          among the Armed Forces and between those agencies of the Government
                                          and industry that contribute to national security." To this end, the
                                          school also opens spots to "industry fellows" from the private
                                          sector who, says NDU president and Air Force Lt. Gen. Michael M.
                                          Dunn, "bring ideas from industry to the Defense Department."

                                          The power of the Pentagon extends beyond an ability to frame or
                                          dictate research goals to significant parts of our civilian
                                          education establishment. Higher education's dependence on federal
                                          dollars empowers the DoD to bend universities ever more easily to
                                          its will. For example, as Chalmers Johnson notes, until August 2002,
                                          Harvard Law School "managed to bar recruiters for the Judge Advocate
                                          General's Corps of the military because qualified students who wish
                                          to serve are rejected if they are openly gay, lesbian or bisexual."
                                          However, thanks to a quick reinterpretation of federal law, the
                                          Pentagon found itself able to threaten Harvard with a loss of all
                                          its federal university funding, some $300 billion, if its law school
                                          denied access to military recruiters. Unable to fathom life ripped
                                          from the federal teat, Harvard caved, ushering in a new era of
                                          dwindling academic autonomy and growing military control of the
                                          university.

                                          The NSA, however, has to share the spotlight with a host of other
                                          military, militarized, or intelligence agencies and subagencies when
                                          it comes to the military-academic action The credo of the Army
                                          Research Laboratory (ARL) in Adelphi, Maryland, for instance,
                                          is "delivering science and technology solutions to the warfighter"
                                          which it strives to do by "put[ting] the best and brightest to work
                                          solving the [Army's] problems" by employing "a variety of funding
                                          mechanisms to support and exploit programs at universities and
                                          industry." The Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command (SPAWAR) is
                                          also high on "University relationships" that provide it with "an
                                          excellent recruitment resource for high-caliber graduate and
                                          undergraduate students." Its SPAWAR Systems Center in Charleston,
                                          S.C, alone, has cooperative agreements with Clemson University, the
                                          University of South Carolina, The Citadel, the College of
                                          Charleston, Old Dominion University, North Carolina State
                                          University, Virginia Tech, Georgia Tech, the University of Central
                                          Florida and North Carolina A & T State University."
                                        • holderlin66
                                          God save America ... The race for the White House will be decided by fundagelicals. That s good news for twice-born George Bush John Sutherland Monday May 3,
                                          Message 20 of 20 , May 3, 2004
                                            God save America ...

                                            The race for the White House will be decided by fundagelicals.
                                            That's good news for twice-born George Bush

                                            John Sutherland
                                            Monday May 3, 2004
                                            The Guardian

                                            The word "fundagelism" has never appeared in the columns of this
                                            newspaper. The term is, however, current in the blogosphere - that
                                            cyberforum which nowadays carries the most interestingly paranoid
                                            political debate. "Fundagelism" is not a word that trips easily off
                                            the tongue. It's a crunching together of the even more mouth-
                                            boggling compound "fundamentalist evangelism".
                                            George W Bush is a fundagelist. Dad wasn't. George H Bush (not
                                            renowned for his Wildean wit) delivered his most memorable wisecrack
                                            on walking into a room full of fundagelists: "Gee! I'm the only
                                            person here that's only been born once."

                                            His son is truly twice born, with two dads. Nor are the parents
                                            equal in the eyes of their son. The journalist Bob Woodward, as he
                                            recalls, asked the current president if he ever turned to the ex-
                                            president for help. "Well, no," replied Bush Jr: "He is the wrong
                                            father to appeal to for advice. The wrong father to go to, to appeal
                                            to in terms of strength. There's a higher father that I appeal to."

                                            There are, it is estimated, 90 million evangelical Christians in the
                                            US. If they can be mobilised, they will form a rock-solid foundation
                                            for November victory for the Republican incumbent. Chads need hang
                                            no more.

                                            Of course, not all American evangelicals are fundagelicals any more
                                            than all Muslims are Islamic extremists. But lukewarm evangelicals
                                            (like the Islamists) are more likely to vote for their own kind -
                                            even if extremist - than the opposition.

                                            What do fundagelicals instinctively oppose? Gay marriage, abortion,
                                            gun control, taxes, the UN (and the currently top-rated candidate
                                            for anti-Christ, Kofi Annan), withdrawal from Iraq, Michael Moore,
                                            Janet Jackson's left breast.

                                            What do they believe in? Christian values and the future as foretold
                                            in the Book of Revelation. According to a Time Magazine poll (which
                                            strains credulity but seems to be valid) 59% of Americans trust that
                                            St John's prophecies will be fulfilled - probably during their
                                            lifetime. November could be a last opportunity to vote for God's
                                            preferred candidate. Iraq (ancient Babylon) figures centrally in the
                                            fundagelist vision of things, as does the Rapture, and the imminent
                                            mass conversion of the Jews (hence fundagelist-Zionism).

                                            The White House has recently been accused of inveighing (via Nasa)
                                            against the movie The Day After Tomorrow (out on May 28) because it
                                            narrates the wrong apocalypse. One caused by man-made global
                                            warming, that is, rather than God's white-hot rage against sinners.
                                            The apocalypse depicted in Tim LaHaye's Left Behind books is, we
                                            assume, the US government-approved version.

                                            Fundagelism presents problems for the Democratic party as it girds
                                            itself for the coming campaign. John Kerry is a Catholic. A former
                                            altar boy, he is (to the irritation of Catholic bishops) in favour
                                            of women's reproductive rights. Last week Naral Pro-Choice America,
                                            the country's leading lobby for legal abortion, endorsed Kerry's
                                            candidacy.

                                            Kerry so-called. Until a couple of years ago, the Democratic front-
                                            runner was assumed to be as Boston Irish as his namesake county.
                                            Newspaper sleuthing discovered that his paternal grandfather was, in
                                            fact, a Czech, Fritz Kohn, who changed his name. Kerry lost
                                            relatives in the Holocaust. Race-hate websites nowadays routinely
                                            abuse him as "Kerry (Kohn aka Cohen)". Famously, Kerry is a
                                            decorated Vietnam war hero who, like Siegfried Sassoon, threw his
                                            medals away in disgust at what he came to see as a futile colonial
                                            war.

                                            Was ever a candidate for the presidency more triangulated? Pro-
                                            choice Catholic, Shamrock-Jewish, warrior-pacifist? In any rational
                                            contest, to be all things to all voters should be an advantage. But
                                            with fundagelism riding high, Kerry looks 110% flip-flop.

                                            Last Thursday, the American PBS network ran a programme The Jesus
                                            Factor. It made (for Democrats and, dare one say it, democrats)
                                            depressing viewing. America, it suggested, is aching for certainty.
                                            Any certainty. Fundagelism supplies it. God help America is all I
                                            can say."
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