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Re: Common grounds

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  • Jo Selsjord
    Are, I m very uncertain myself, so we re in the same boat, so to speak . . . Please don t get me wrong when I say that what to you might seem or even be facts,
    Message 1 of 3 , Aug 5 2:23 PM
      Are,

      I'm very uncertain myself, so we're in the same boat, so to speak . . .

      Please don't get me wrong when I say that what to you might seem or even
      be facts, won't neccessarily appear as facts to others - like me - since
      I am presently unaware of what you have experienced. One or several
      insightful sample descriptions of the process leading you to conclude
      differently from 'a horse whisperer' or the amimal itself regarding its
      ailment, might shed some light on your subject matter.

      From more than 35 years in the realm of Anthroposophy and Rudolf
      Steiner's incredibly numerous and (if I might say so) incredibly
      fruitful elaborations, I know that Anthroposophers/Anthroposophists -
      like most people - might believe in almost anything and for hardly any
      reason or rationale at all. This is not entirely negative, but still
      beside the progress of science and probably beside a general progress -
      be it spiritual or otherwise.

      To my scant knowledge 'Die Flensburger Hefte' have presented
      dialogues/communications with 'non-human' realms of our environment.
      Since I haven't taken the opportunity to read any of these publications,
      I have no belief or disbelief to supply, but a glimpse of your
      experience (reflections and/or objections) might provide part of a
      fundament for some evaluation.

      For now I postpone a reply to your 'tick question', but let me pose some
      questions in reply to anyone reading these ramblings:

      If our animals friends speak, what might they say in our day and night
      of countless threats on our basic livelihood: Are they aware of what is
      going on and at stake; do they judge themselves or us for this; is
      there a way (not out, but) into a common future (this might be the
      animal in me speaking).

      I think I have the perfect poem to put an end to this.


      My regards,

      JoS


      THE WAKING
      ----------
      I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow,
      I feel my fate in what I cannot fear.
      I learn by going where I have to go.

      We think by feeling. What is there to know?
      I hear my being dance from ear to ear.
      I wake to sleep and take my waking slow.

      Of those so close beside me, which are you?
      God bless the Ground! I shall walk softly there,
      And learn by going where I have to go.

      Light takes the Tree; but who can tell us how?
      The lowly worm climbs up a winding stair;
      I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow.

      Great Nature has another thing to do
      To you and me; so take the lively air,
      and, lovely, learn by going where to go.

      This shaking keeps me steady. I should know.
      What falls away is always. And is near.
      I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow.
      I learn by going where I have to go.

      > Theodore Roethke (1954?)


      Are Thoresen wrote:
      >
      I am a little uncertain what you mean here Jo, as I just presented
      > two facts; 1) as a veterinarian I cant find, clinically or in
      > investigations, what most animal communicators say, and 2) that
      > Ixodes die after biting me after I met Judith vH. These facts made
      > me curious of the cause. The question to you all was about your
      > opinion or if you have had similar experiences or knowledge about
      > these matters. I do not see how my experiences and abilities have
      > anything to do with these matters. I have a certain sensitiveness,
      > yes, due to my work, but to describe this in detail I find
      > difficult. Jo, do you think that matters, or what did you have in
      > mind, really?
      >
      > Are
    • Are Thoresen
      Dear Jo and all, Jo wrote; Please don t get me wrong when I say that what to you might seem or even be facts, won t neccessarily appear as facts to others -
      Message 2 of 3 , Aug 5 11:51 PM

        Dear Jo and all,

        Jo wrote; Please don't get me wrong when I say that what to you might seem or even
        be facts, won't neccessarily appear as facts to others - like me - since
        I am presently unaware of what you have experienced.
        One or several
        insightful sample descriptions of the process leading you to conclude
        differently from 'a horse whisperer' or the amimal itself regarding its
        ailment, might shed some light on your subject matter.

        Are answer; this question is easy; all animals talking to animals communicators mentally, not as M. Roberts and Cesar who communicate through body language, tell where they have pain (at least in Scandinavia, may be not in other countries). So, when I touch or stretch the area where they say they have pain, there is no pain. When I stretch other areas where I as a vet find trouble, they react with pain.

        Jo wrote; From more than 35 years in the realm of Anthroposophy and Rudolf
        Steiner's incredibly numerous and (if I might say so) incredibly
        fruitful elaborations, I know that Anthroposophers/Anthroposophists -
        like most people - might believe in almost anything and for hardly any
        reason or rationale at all. This is not entirely negative, but still
        beside the progress of science and probably beside a general progress -
        be it spiritual or otherwise.

        Are answer; I totally agree. And that is exactly why I raised this question, so that we may be a little more critically evaluating.

        Jo wrote; To my scant knowledge 'Die Flensburger Hefte' have presented
        dialogues/communications with 'non-human' realms of our environment.
        Since I haven't taken the opportunity to read any of these publications,
        I have no belief or disbelief to supply, but a glimpse of your
        experience (reflections and/or objections) might provide part of a
        fundament for some evaluation.

        Are answer; in the Flensburger hefts the animals talk as high initiatives, knowing more than humans and understanding more, with greater compassion. From all that I have seen in animals, from pigs drinking the blood of their friends waiting to be slaughtered, horses eating themselves to death (as we humans though), chicken, horses or other animals showing no compassion or empathy with each other, elks not aware of the areas where hunting is prohibited I have concluded that they do not know or understand more than we do, usually less. BUT, they understand body language very good, as this language is what they mostly depend on. If they could talk, why then use this complicated body languahe. Why don’t the bees just tel where the honey is, instead of performing this complicated dance?

        For now I postpone a reply to your 'tick question', but let me pose some
        questions in reply to anyone reading these ramblings:

        Jo asks; If our animals friends speak, what might they say in our day and night
        of countless threats on our basic livelihood: Are they aware of what is
        going on and at stake; do they judge themselves or us for this; is
        there a way (not out, but) into a common future (this might be the
        animal in me speaking).

        Are comments; they speak in their behaviour, their body language, the expression in their eyes, in the conscience of humans, but not interlectually.

      • Kim Graae Munch
        Hi Jo, May I try to give an intuitive direction on your last question? The animals are one level below man, in the same way that we are one level below what we
        Message 3 of 3 , Aug 6 1:21 AM
          Hi Jo,
          May I try to give an intuitive direction on your last question?

          The animals are one level below man, in the same way that we are one level below what we call Angels. Try to ask the same questions on this relation instead.

          Another view: We have the three soul elements the animals don't have, and for animals to communicate as us they need the intellectual soul.

          As you say, Anthroposophists have a tendency to believe in much, where they should check it against their accumulated knowledge (thinking.) If you need Steiners words on everything you don't use his gifts rightly.

          I see Horse whisperers as animal psychologists who understand their inherent behavioral streaks.

          In kinesiology they use methods to make a diagnosis without involving the mental capabilities of man, the same should be possible with animals, although not the exact same method.

          There have been a tendency to ascribe a lot of psychic abilities to animals through time, and most of these have been found to have normal physical explanations, the only known psychic ability is that some experiences in one community can be relayed back to the group soul and infused into other communities, maybe through death and birth.

          Intuition between animals is counterproductive for their life and survival.
          Regards,
          Kim (from Denmark.)
           
          --- Den tors 5/8/10 skrev Jo Selsjord <jo@...>:

          Fra: Jo Selsjord <jo@...>
          Emne: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Common grounds
          Til: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
          Dato: torsdag 5. august 2010 23.23

           

          Are,

          I'm very uncertain myself, so we're in the same boat, so to speak . . .

          Please don't get me wrong when I say that what to you might seem or even
          be facts, won't neccessarily appear as facts to others - like me - since
          I am presently unaware of what you have experienced. One or several
          insightful sample descriptions of the process leading you to conclude
          differently from 'a horse whisperer' or the amimal itself regarding its
          ailment, might shed some light on your subject matter.

          From more than 35 years in the realm of Anthroposophy and Rudolf
          Steiner's incredibly numerous and (if I might say so) incredibly
          fruitful elaborations, I know that Anthroposophers/Anthroposophists -
          like most people - might believe in almost anything and for hardly any
          reason or rationale at all. This is not entirely negative, but still
          beside the progress of science and probably beside a general progress -
          be it spiritual or otherwise.

          To my scant knowledge 'Die Flensburger Hefte' have presented
          dialogues/communications with 'non-human' realms of our environment.
          Since I haven't taken the opportunity to read any of these publications,
          I have no belief or disbelief to supply, but a glimpse of your
          experience (reflections and/or objections) might provide part of a
          fundament for some evaluation.

          For now I postpone a reply to your 'tick question', but let me pose some
          questions in reply to anyone reading these ramblings:

          If our animals friends speak, what might they say in our day and night
          of countless threats on our basic livelihood: Are they aware of what is
          going on and at stake; do they judge themselves or us for this; is
          there a way (not out, but) into a common future (this might be the
          animal in me speaking).

          I think I have the perfect poem to put an end to this.

          My regards,

          JoS

          THE WAKING
          ----------
          I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow,
          I feel my fate in what I cannot fear.
          I learn by going where I have to go.

          We think by feeling. What is there to know?
          I hear my being dance from ear to ear.
          I wake to sleep and take my waking slow.

          Of those so close beside me, which are you?
          God bless the Ground! I shall walk softly there,
          And learn by going where I have to go.

          Light takes the Tree; but who can tell us how?
          The lowly worm climbs up a winding stair;
          I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow.

          Great Nature has another thing to do
          To you and me; so take the lively air,
          and, lovely, learn by going where to go.

          This shaking keeps me steady. I should know.
          What falls away is always. And is near.
          I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow.
          I learn by going where I have to go.

          > Theodore Roethke (1954?)

          Are Thoresen wrote:
          >
          I am a little uncertain what you mean here Jo, as I just presented
          > two facts; 1) as a veterinarian I cant find, clinically or in
          > investigations, what most animal communicators say, and 2) that
          > Ixodes die after biting me after I met Judith vH. These facts made
          > me curious of the cause. The question to you all was about your
          > opinion or if you have had similar experiences or knowledge about
          > these matters. I do not see how my experiences and abilities have
          > anything to do with these matters. I have a certain sensitiveness,
          > yes, due to my work, but to describe this in detail I find
          > difficult. Jo, do you think that matters, or what did you have in
          > mind, really?
          >
          > Are


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