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Confusion between what is Luciferic and Ahrimanian

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  • Kim
    I had earlier in my life difficulties seeing what was Luciferic and what was Ahrimanic, and it seems to be a problem for most Anthroposophs. In connection with
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 5, 2010
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      I had earlier in my life difficulties seeing what was Luciferic and what was Ahrimanic, and it seems to be a problem for most Anthroposophs. In connection with the Gilgamesh epic I had an inspiration for a rule of thumb:
      Lucifer has to do with the Sentient soul, and it's negative sides as egoism or arrogance, where Ahriman has to do with the Intellectual soul (Heart and Mind soul), where unemotional thinking is the sign of Ahriman, that could be a social worker who just don't care, or it could be a political leader where the ideals comes before anything else, where empathy is a foreign word, which is a Sentient soul thing, and Compassion, which is a Consciousness soul thing.
      Christ is of course connected to the Consciousness soul.
      Outside of man, Ahriman works through the Law's and Rules which inhibits mans conscious thinking and behavior.  And with laws we should both understand man-made and god-made, as for example gravity. The higher our weight the more we fight with gravity, the more docile we become in both thinking and actions; the distance from thought to action becomes longer with the number of pounds/kilo we have to move, even if the action is non-physical.

      Lucifer works actively through persons, like a leader in a big organization who don't delegate responsibility, but controls everything through rules, and the rules are Ahrimanic, and they may even be scientifically justified, they just don't work as intended, as they haven't taken into consideration that the workers are humans and not robots.
      The following is a Luciferic type, pretty concentrated on his own ego, quite emotional:


      This Ahrimanic type don't let feelings stand in his way, he even don't know what it is, but he is not without egoism, it's masked as altruism:
      On the Left Cross
      Kim
    • dottie zold
      Kim, I know you like to throw slings and arrows at anthros but my experience is that they are pretty clear on ahriman and lucifer and their attributes....whew,
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 5, 2010
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        Kim, I know you like to throw slings and arrows at anthros but my experience is that they are pretty clear on ahriman and lucifer and their attributes....whew, d

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner


      • dottie zold
        My mind has been on Hypatia and I just found yesterday that there is a movie with her history called Agora coming out soon or is now out and about.....while
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 5, 2010
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          My mind has been on Hypatia and I just found yesterday that there is a movie with her history called Agora coming out soon or is now out and about.....while looking at something this morning I found myself with the school of athens by Raphael....she seems to be the only living female in the painting:
           
           
           
          I remember when first seeing this painting a few years back I thought it was a sophian element, and it is but with a real living history of a woman at that time who was torn limb by limb and then even had her skin torn off.
           
          I was interested in the relations around her and found a wonderful friend and colleague maybe student named Synesius of Cyrene:  http://www.livius.org/su-sz/synesius/synesius_cyrene.html
          He has a most amazing poem, I think I want to do this sort of poetry here at Elderberries and the night will be called Faust in the Hause! :) this poem looks to be on baldness but alas by the time I hit part four of 25! I found it to be on the Magdalene and the hairdressers albeit of my own studies from a comment many years ago by my rabbi about Mary, mother of Jesus, was a hairdresser!
           
           
          [1169] [Dio's In Praise of Hair; 1] "After rising in the morning and praying to the gods, as is my custom, I attended to my hair; I happened to be in poor health at the time, and it had been too long uncared for. The most of it had become knotted and entangled, as that which hangs about a sheep's legs, but much coarser than this, for it is tangled with fine hairs. The hair was accordingly uncouth and heavy to behold. And it was difficult to unravel; the most of it was torn out and subjected to a strain.
           
          Thus the idea came to me of praising those who make a cult of their hair, who love beauty, and give their hair great importance, and who not merely give it serious attention but even keep a sort of reed in the hair itself, [1172] with which they comb it when they are at leisure. And this is the most difficult thing; they guard against touching the earth with it when sleeping on the ground, for they have to place a small piece of wood under the head that it may be separated from the earth as much as possible; and they think much more of keeping their hair clean than of sleeping agreeably, for it would seem to make them fine looking and awe-inspiring, whereas sleep, however sweet, only makes them sluggish and careless.
           
          The Lacedaemonians, too, seem to me to be not neglectful of such a fact, as they came forward before the great and terrible battle at the time when they alone of all Greeks were to engage the king.[2] At that moment numbering only three hundred, they sat them down and dressed their hair.
           
          Again, Homer seems to me to consider such a thing worthy of the greatest care. It is not often that he praises handsome men for their eyes, nor does he think to make beauty evident most of all therein. He makes no encomium on the eyes of any of the heroes, except Agamemnon, and that only in praising the rest of his body besides;[3] and he not merely describes the Greeks as men of quick-glancing eyes, though no less to Agamemnon does he apply the epithet common to Greeks, but he praises them all for their hair; in the first place Achilles

           

          and she [Athena] seized the son of Peleus by his fair hair.[4]

          Then Menelaus he calls blond because of his hair,[5] and he mentions Hector's hair in these words:

           

          and round about his dark hair was dragged in the dust.[6]

          So when Euphorbus, the fairest of the Trojans, had died, he deplored nothing else but this, saying

           

          His hair like to the Graces was dyed with blood
          and his tresses adorned with gold and silver.[7]

           
          And of Odysseus, whenever he wishes to show how beautiful he had become at the hand of Athena, he says

           

          his hair turned black.[8]

          And again about the same hero:

                                                               

             down from his head
          she sent curling hair to grow like the flower of the hyacinth.[9]

           
          Now adornment of hair seems to become men more than women according to Homer, for when he discourses of the beauty of women, he does not so often seem to have recalled to mind their hair. He praises those amongst the deities who are female, in other ways, he makes Aphrodite "golden", Hera "ox-eyed" and Thetis "silver-footed"; but in the case of Zeus he praises his hair most of all:

           

          The ambrosial locks of the king floated waving from his head.[10]

          Dottie: I really really really like this Synesius of Cyrene! He has my kinda humor and lightness that I love....that was really cool to happen upon this as I awoke:)
           
          All good things,
          Dottie
          "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



          --- On Sat, 6/5/10, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

          From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
          Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Confusion between what is Luciferic and Ahrimanian
          To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, June 5, 2010, 7:21 AM



          Kim, I know you like to throw slings and arrows at anthros but my experience is that they are pretty clear on ahriman and lucifer and their attributes....whew, d

          "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner





        • dottie zold
          Here is the movie I was speaking to that speaks to Hypatia of old:   http://passionateabouthistory.blogspot.com/2009/05/film-agora-profiles-female.html d  
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 5, 2010
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            Here is the movie I was speaking to that speaks to Hypatia of old:
             


             


            --- On Sat, 6/5/10, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

            From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
            Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Hypatia
            To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, June 5, 2010, 8:12 AM



            My mind has been on Hypatia and I just found yesterday that there is a movie with her history called Agora coming out soon or is now out and about.....while looking at something this morning I found myself with the school of athens by Raphael....she seems to be the only living female in the painting:
             
             
             
            I remember when first seeing this painting a few years back I thought it was a sophian element, and it is but with a real living history of a woman at that time who was torn limb by limb and then even had her skin torn off.
             
            I was interested in the relations around her and found a wonderful friend and colleague maybe student named Synesius of Cyrene:  http://www.livius.org/su-sz/synesius/synesius_cyrene.html
            He has a most amazing poem, I think I want to do this sort of poetry here at Elderberries and the night will be called Faust in the Hause! :) this poem looks to be on baldness but alas by the time I hit part four of 25! I found it to be on the Magdalene and the hairdressers albeit of my own studies from a comment many years ago by my rabbi about Mary, mother of Jesus, was a hairdresser!
             
             
            [1169] [Dio's In Praise of Hair; 1] "After rising in the morning and praying to the gods, as is my custom, I attended to my hair; I happened to be in poor health at the time, and it had been too long uncared for. The most of it had become knotted and entangled, as that which hangs about a sheep's legs, but much coarser than this, for it is tangled with fine hairs. The hair was accordingly uncouth and heavy to behold. And it was difficult to unravel; the most of it was torn out and subjected to a strain.
             
            Thus the idea came to me of praising those who make a cult of their hair, who love beauty, and give their hair great importance, and who not merely give it serious attention but even keep a sort of reed in the hair itself, [1172] with which they comb it when they are at leisure. And this is the most difficult thing; they guard against touching the earth with it when sleeping on the ground, for they have to place a small piece of wood under the head that it may be separated from the earth as much as possible; and they think much more of keeping their hair clean than of sleeping agreeably, for it would seem to make them fine looking and awe-inspiring, whereas sleep, however sweet, only makes them sluggish and careless.
             
            The Lacedaemonians, too, seem to me to be not neglectful of such a fact, as they came forward before the great and terrible battle at the time when they alone of all Greeks were to engage the king.[2] At that moment numbering only three hundred, they sat them down and dressed their hair.
             
            Again, Homer seems to me to consider such a thing worthy of the greatest care. It is not often that he praises handsome men for their eyes, nor does he think to make beauty evident most of all therein. He makes no encomium on the eyes of any of the heroes, except Agamemnon, and that only in praising the rest of his body besides;[3] and he not merely describes the Greeks as men of quick-glancing eyes, though no less to Agamemnon does he apply the epithet common to Greeks, but he praises them all for their hair; in the first place Achilles

             

            and she [Athena] seized the son of Peleus by his fair hair.[4]

            Then Menelaus he calls blond because of his hair,[5] and he mentions Hector's hair in these words:

             

            and round about his dark hair was dragged in the dust.[6]

            So when Euphorbus, the fairest of the Trojans, had died, he deplored nothing else but this, saying

             

            His hair like to the Graces was dyed with blood
            and his tresses adorned with gold and silver.[7]

             
            And of Odysseus, whenever he wishes to show how beautiful he had become at the hand of Athena, he says

             

            his hair turned black.[8]

            And again about the same hero:

                                                                 

               down from his head
            she sent curling hair to grow like the flower of the hyacinth.[9]

             
            Now adornment of hair seems to become men more than women according to Homer, for when he discourses of the beauty of women, he does not so often seem to have recalled to mind their hair. He praises those amongst the deities who are female, in other ways, he makes Aphrodite "golden", Hera "ox-eyed" and Thetis "silver-footed"; but in the case of Zeus he praises his hair most of all:

             

            The ambrosial locks of the king floated waving from his head.[10]

            Dottie: I really really really like this Synesius of Cyrene! He has my kinda humor and lightness that I love....that was really cool to happen upon this as I awoke:)
             
            All good things,
            Dottie
            "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



            --- On Sat, 6/5/10, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

            From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
            Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Confusion between what is Luciferic and Ahrimanian
            To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, June 5, 2010, 7:21 AM



            Kim, I know you like to throw slings and arrows at anthros but my experience is that they are pretty clear on ahriman and lucifer and their attributes....whew, d

            "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner








          • Kim Graae Munch
            I just had an experience where an anthro called arrogance an ahrimanian vice, so I wanted to put my idea into words. Kim ... Fra: dottie zold
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 5, 2010
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              I just had an experience where an anthro called arrogance an ahrimanian vice, so I wanted to put my idea into words.
              Kim

              --- Den lør 5/6/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@...>:

              Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
              Emne: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Confusion between what is Luciferic and Ahrimanian
              Til: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
              Dato: lørdag 5. juni 2010 16.21

               

              Kim, I know you like to throw slings and arrows at anthros but my experience is that they are pretty clear on ahriman and lucifer and their attributes.. ..whew, d

              "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



            • dottie zold
              like you just showed Kim, nothing fits into these neat little packages to be defined...arrogance can be part of an Ahrimanic mannerism very easily....its
              Message 6 of 7 , Jun 5, 2010
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                like you just showed Kim, nothing fits into these neat little packages to be defined...arrogance can be part of an Ahrimanic mannerism very easily....its probably what's underlying it that your speaking to however arrogance easily fits in that gesture as well...d

                "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                --- On Sat, 6/5/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...> wrote:

                From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...>
                Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Confusion between what is Luciferic and Ahrimanian
                To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, June 5, 2010, 10:54 AM



                I just had an experience where an anthro called arrogance an ahrimanian vice, so I wanted to put my idea into words.
                Kim

                --- Den lør 5/6/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@...>:

                Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                Emne: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Confusion between what is Luciferic and Ahrimanian
                Til: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                Dato: lørdag 5. juni 2010 16.21

                 
                Kim, I know you like to throw slings and arrows at anthros but my experience is that they are pretty clear on ahriman and lucifer and their attributes.. ..whew, d

                "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner






              • Kim Graae Munch
                So, everything can be everything? The question whats Ahrimanian and whats Luciferic is uninteresting, what counts are that we can swear in the name of Ahriman
                Message 7 of 7 , Jun 5, 2010
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                  So, everything can be everything? The question whats Ahrimanian and whats Luciferic is uninteresting, what counts are that we can swear in the name of Ahriman as we wants.

                  Steiner writes about the danger of the dualistic view setting good over for evil, setting God as good and the devil as evil, where he said that God is the equilibrium between the Luciferic evil and the Ahrimanic evil, but if we set all evil under the domain of Ahrimain we does evil a service.

                  The most used word by Anthros is Ahriman, and the second most used word is Lucifer, so we should either use them less or know what we talk about when we use them.

                  By the way, I think that my rule of thumb was pretty good, but who cares:)

                  Kim

                  --- Den lør 5/6/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@...>:

                  Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
                  Emne: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Confusion between what is Luciferic and Ahrimanian
                  Til: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                  Dato: lørdag 5. juni 2010 20.27

                   

                  like you just showed Kim, nothing fits into these neat little packages to be defined...arrogance can be part of an Ahrimanic mannerism very easily....its probably what's underlying it that your speaking to however arrogance easily fits in that gesture as well...d

                  "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                  --- On Sat, 6/5/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                  From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
                  Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Confusion between what is Luciferic and Ahrimanian
                  To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Saturday, June 5, 2010, 10:54 AM



                  I just had an experience where an anthro called arrogance an ahrimanian vice, so I wanted to put my idea into words.
                  Kim

                  --- Den lør 5/6/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>:

                  Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
                  Emne: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] Confusion between what is Luciferic and Ahrimanian
                  Til: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
                  Dato: lørdag 5. juni 2010 16.21

                   
                  Kim, I know you like to throw slings and arrows at anthros but my experience is that they are pretty clear on ahriman and lucifer and their attributes.. ..whew, d

                  "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner







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