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Re: Hole Quote of the Year

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  • ted.wrinch
    I saw that one too Taz and was amazed at the ridiculous paucity of evidence, intelligence - you name it - that she demonstrated. But I also expected something
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 1, 2010
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      I saw that one too Taz and was amazed at the ridiculous paucity of evidence, intelligence - you name it - that she demonstrated. But I also expected something like it to be coming after she mentioned the dreaded 'A' word (Aryan) in her first post. This is because we know that this whole Aryan thing is one of the Piper's peanut butter specials, as Steiner: 1) explicitly distanced himself from that terminology. preferring instead to use the expression 'post-Atlantean epochs' and 2) it never was some early Nazi Aryan racial exclusivist club since, as we know, the third post-Atlantean epoch always included the Semitic Babylonians (and sometimes the Jews, though they got mention in other periods too) and the autochthonous Egyptians. Not that this would bother PS, who's immune to logic, evidence or common sense (I can hear his voice now: 'I take it that this was news to you Ted').

      It was also interesting to see PS' sleight of hand to the newcomers looking for juicy racist tidbits. He provided lots of stuff for them from the Nazi 30s, but when asked for any more upto date evidence was reduced to pointing to supposed racist comments from posters to the WC list and stating that some of this 30s stuff is still in print. I assume that this lack of relevant evidence is why he's reduced to pumping the wacko anti-anthro for all she's got. I would have expected the resident creatures, allegedly experts and actual parents, to have stepped in with a plethora of racy stories - but no: apparently Ms Winters is after evidence too (or maybe just playing her).

      But good point about leading the wackos to the hole - the more the better and I'm almost looking forward to PS' response to Annette!

      T.

      Ted Wrinch.

      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
      >
      > Very fresh!
      >
      >
      > Annette Bishop:
      > Well, I studied at the Rudolf Steiner College and I can attest to the
      > fact that they are still deeply racist. In fact the core of the
      > teachings are that Aryans are superior to all other races.
      >
      > Peter Staudenmaier:
      > Annette, if you have any specific reflections on the role that
      > anthroposophy's racial teachings played in the curriculum at Rudolf
      > Steiner College, I'd be interested to learn about them.
      > Thanks,
      > Peter S.
      >
      >
      > Annette Bishop:
      > Well - it's kinda hard to explain - even though there are some very 'out
      > there' definite racial overtones - mostly it's hidden. As we all know
      > 'esoteric' means "designed for or understood by the specially initiated
      > alone" - and it is so with the core message - that it is not for the
      > public; it is not for the students either, not even the teachers,
      > atleast not all of them - it's for the initiates. It is written in
      > codes, using numbers, colors, the human body (organs, bodyparts and so
      > on), planets - and also regular christianity - almost like the Santeria
      > uses the figure of Jesus, but he is really just a cover for the god
      > Shango. Lucifer is Odin - Thor is Ahriman (and together they will give
      > birth to the coming 'christ' - Vidar; yeah - it gets real strange...
      > lol.)
      >
      > In any case - I did see the traces of racism early on - also in certain
      > things the teachers would say - so I started studying on my own, and
      > somehow I broke the code and could read the books as intended. Not only
      > Steiner's books, but Alice Bailey and others (her book Esoteric Healing
      > is a manual in genocide.)
      >
      > I usually don't really talk about it much because people tend to think I
      > am crazy... So I am going to leave you with this for starters and see
      > what the reaction is...
      >
      > Peace,
      > Annette
      >
      >
      > Comment:
      >
      > This is absolutely dynamite. We'vew had our share of anthro-wackos and
      > anthro-hating vermin over the years, but here we have a full-fledged
      > anti-anthro-wacko, which looks like a rare species, although we'll
      > probably see plenty more specimen in the future when they begin to
      > multiply. And maybe Midsummer Night's Dream is a good breeding time for
      > them.
      >
      > And I'm so happy to see a proper wacko in the hole, because it would
      > really make my day to see the Unthinkable Facility overflowing with
      > wackos of all kinds -- anthros, anti-anthros, possessed ones, u name it.
      >
      > And Ted, if you don't want to lose your marbles in that place, then
      > don't go back there but instead start headhunting for wackos -- Nazis,
      > UFO-travellers, acid-trippers, it doesn't matter. Give them all tickets
      > to the Abyss and enjoy the show from a distance.
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > Tarjei
      >
    • ted.wrinch
      Dan Dugan, in response to Diana s starting a serialisation of Theosophy of the Rosicrucian : This was, of course, when he was a Theosophist… LMAO! You
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 13, 2012
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        Dan Dugan, in response to Diana's starting a serialisation of 'Theosophy of the Rosicrucian':

        "This was, of course, when he was a Theosophist…"

        LMAO! You wonder if, after more than 2 decades of 'criticism', he's ever actually read any
        Steiner!

        T.

        Ted Wrinch
      • elfuncle
        I looked into that and for the first time in internet history, I m inclined to applaud Diana s posts. She seems to have a keen grasp on anthroposophy,
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 13, 2012
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          I looked into that and for the first time in internet history, I'm inclined to applaud Diana's posts. She seems to have a keen grasp on anthroposophy, understanding the planetary incarnations (manvantaras and pralayas), the difference between biological humanity and human souls between death and rebirth and their relationships to various planets and so on. She knocks my socks off with her burst of anthro-wisdom, Brother Ted! Some years back I worked very hard on her with lots of lovathons and Pauline Christianity, trying to guide her through a Damascus experience and an Epiphany. So now I'm wondering if Diana has had her Epiphany this Christmas season -- my oh my, an atheist, anti-Christian Sugar Cherub has found the Christ with her soul overflowing with esoteric wisdom, shining like a star on the firmament and lighting up the darkness in Sugarland. By being sweet to them, we've given them sweetness. By the light shining in their direction from anthroposophical sources, they're beginning to come around, and Diana -- a name that means "heaven or "divine" according to ancient mythology -- is showing them the way!! Wow!

          Tarjei


          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dan Dugan, in response to Diana's starting a serialisation of 'Theosophy of the Rosicrucian':
          >
          > "This was, of course, when he was a Theosophist…"
          >
          > LMAO! You wonder if, after more than 2 decades of 'criticism', he's ever actually read any
          > Steiner!
          >
          > T.
          >
          > Ted Wrinch
          >

        • elfuncle
          I am absolutely promoting the reading of anthroposophical literature. ( -- Diana Winters, Sugarland, Jan 13, 2012) T ... and ... and ... Brother ...
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 13, 2012
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            "I am absolutely promoting the reading of anthroposophical literature."
            ( -- Diana Winters, Sugarland, Jan 13, 2012)

            T


            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
            >
            > I looked into that and for the first time in internet history, I'm
            > inclined to applaud Diana's posts. She seems to have a keen grasp on
            > anthroposophy, understanding the planetary incarnations (manvantaras and
            > pralayas), the difference between biological humanity and human souls
            > between death and rebirth and their relationships to various planets and
            > so on. She knocks my socks off with her burst of anthro-wisdom, Brother
            > Ted! Some years back I worked very hard on her with lots of lovathons
            > and Pauline Christianity, trying to guide her through a Damascus
            > experience and an Epiphany. So now I'm wondering if Diana has had her
            > Epiphany this Christmas season -- my oh my, an atheist, anti-Christian
            > Sugar Cherub has found the Christ with her soul overflowing with
            > esoteric wisdom, shining like a star on the firmament and lighting up
            > the darkness in Sugarland. By being sweet to them, we've given them
            > sweetness. By the light shining in their direction from anthroposophical
            > sources, they're beginning to come around, and Diana -- a name that
            > means "heaven or "divine" according to ancient mythology -- is showing
            > them the way!! Wow!
            >
            > Tarjei
            >
            >
            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch"
            > ted.wrinch@ wrote:
            > >
            > > Dan Dugan, in response to Diana's starting a serialisation of
            > 'Theosophy of the Rosicrucian':
            > >
            > > "This was, of course, when he was a Theosophist…"
            > >
            > > LMAO! You wonder if, after more than 2 decades of 'criticism', he's
            > ever actually read any
            > > Steiner!
            > >
            > > T.
            > >
            > > Ted Wrinch
            > >
            >

          • elfuncle
            No, I don t call Staudenmaier a troll ( -- Diana Winters, Sugarland, Jan 13, 2012) T ... literature. ... souls ... lovathons ... her ... anti-Christian ...
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 13, 2012
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              "No, I don't call Staudenmaier a troll"

              ( -- Diana Winters, Sugarland, Jan 13, 2012)

              T


              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > "I am absolutely promoting the reading of anthroposophical literature."
              > ( -- Diana Winters, Sugarland, Jan 13, 2012)
              >
              > T
              >
              >
              > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > I looked into that and for the first time in internet history, I'm
              > > inclined to applaud Diana's posts. She seems to have a keen grasp on
              > > anthroposophy, understanding the planetary incarnations (manvantaras
              > and
              > > pralayas), the difference between biological humanity and human souls
              > > between death and rebirth and their relationships to various planets
              > and
              > > so on. She knocks my socks off with her burst of anthro-wisdom,
              > Brother
              > > Ted! Some years back I worked very hard on her with lots of lovathons
              > > and Pauline Christianity, trying to guide her through a Damascus
              > > experience and an Epiphany. So now I'm wondering if Diana has had her
              > > Epiphany this Christmas season -- my oh my, an atheist, anti-Christian
              > > Sugar Cherub has found the Christ with her soul overflowing with
              > > esoteric wisdom, shining like a star on the firmament and lighting up
              > > the darkness in Sugarland. By being sweet to them, we've given them
              > > sweetness. By the light shining in their direction from
              > anthroposophical
              > > sources, they're beginning to come around, and Diana -- a name that
              > > means "heaven or "divine" according to ancient mythology -- is showing
              > > them the way!! Wow!
              > >
              > > Tarjei
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch"
              > > ted.wrinch@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Dan Dugan, in response to Diana's starting a serialisation of
              > > 'Theosophy of the Rosicrucian':
              > > >
              > > > "This was, of course, when he was a Theosophist…"
              > > >
              > > > LMAO! You wonder if, after more than 2 decades of 'criticism', he's
              > > ever actually read any
              > > > Steiner!
              > > >
              > > > T.
              > > >
              > > > Ted Wrinch
              > > >
              > >
              >

            • ted.wrinch
              Diana: I wouldn t be so certain, though, that terms that seem obvious, like today or now in Steiner mean the same thing we mean in ordinary daily use.
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 13, 2012
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                Diana:

                "I wouldn't be so certain, though, that terms that seem obvious, like "today" or
                "now" in Steiner mean the same thing we mean in ordinary daily use."

                Roger:

                "When Steiner spoke of something that happened 15,000 years ago, for example, the
                only possible interpretation (if words have any meaning at all) is that is
                happened 15,000 years ago (i.e., in our historical epoch).

                I think this Rosicrucian fest on WC could be fascinating; I haven't seen them have a wide-ranging discussion on Steiner writing before. Roger appears to think that 'history' includes pre-history, the period before written records existed - 'history' is usually reckoned to have started perhaps 4,000 years ago. I wonder if they'll sort out the time problem, which is a perplexing one, albeit one for which Steiner has left lots of analogical hints that suggest what he understood by it.

                T.

                Ted Wrinch

                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > "I am absolutely promoting the reading of anthroposophical literature."
                > ( -- Diana Winters, Sugarland, Jan 13, 2012)
                >
                > T
                >
                >
                > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > I looked into that and for the first time in internet history, I'm
                > > inclined to applaud Diana's posts. She seems to have a keen grasp on
                > > anthroposophy, understanding the planetary incarnations (manvantaras
                > and
                > > pralayas), the difference between biological humanity and human souls
                > > between death and rebirth and their relationships to various planets
                > and
                > > so on. She knocks my socks off with her burst of anthro-wisdom,
                > Brother
                > > Ted! Some years back I worked very hard on her with lots of lovathons
                > > and Pauline Christianity, trying to guide her through a Damascus
                > > experience and an Epiphany. So now I'm wondering if Diana has had her
                > > Epiphany this Christmas season -- my oh my, an atheist, anti-Christian
                > > Sugar Cherub has found the Christ with her soul overflowing with
                > > esoteric wisdom, shining like a star on the firmament and lighting up
                > > the darkness in Sugarland. By being sweet to them, we've given them
                > > sweetness. By the light shining in their direction from
                > anthroposophical
                > > sources, they're beginning to come around, and Diana -- a name that
                > > means "heaven or "divine" according to ancient mythology -- is showing
                > > them the way!! Wow!
                > >
                > > Tarjei
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch"
                > > ted.wrinch@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Dan Dugan, in response to Diana's starting a serialisation of
                > > 'Theosophy of the Rosicrucian':
                > > >
                > > > "This was, of course, when he was a Theosophist…"
                > > >
                > > > LMAO! You wonder if, after more than 2 decades of 'criticism', he's
                > > ever actually read any
                > > > Steiner!
                > > >
                > > > T.
                > > >
                > > > Ted Wrinch
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Frank Thomas Smith
                Actually, Diana is quite right. Often Steiner (and other German authors) uses the present tense when referring to the past. It is clear in context, but can be
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 13, 2012
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                  Actually, Diana is quite right. Often Steiner (and other German authors) uses the present tense when referring to the past. It is clear in context, but can be confusing when translating to English, when some translators do it literally. So if you take a quote out of the context it looks like he's talking about the present. I always change to the past tense when translating, although I have sometimes forgotten.
                  Frank

                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Diana:
                  >
                  > "I wouldn't be so certain, though, that terms that seem obvious, like "today" or
                  > "now" in Steiner mean the same thing we mean in ordinary daily use."
                  >
                  > Roger:
                  >
                  > "When Steiner spoke of something that happened 15,000 years ago, for example, the
                  > only possible interpretation (if words have any meaning at all) is that is
                  > happened 15,000 years ago (i.e., in our historical epoch).
                  >
                  > I think this Rosicrucian fest on WC could be fascinating; I haven't seen them have a wide-ranging discussion on Steiner writing before. Roger appears to think that 'history' includes pre-history, the period before written records existed - 'history' is usually reckoned to have started perhaps 4,000 years ago. I wonder if they'll sort out the time problem, which is a perplexing one, albeit one for which Steiner has left lots of analogical hints that suggest what he understood by it.
                  >
                  > T.
                  >
                  > Ted Wrinch
                  >
                  > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "I am absolutely promoting the reading of anthroposophical literature."
                  > > ( -- Diana Winters, Sugarland, Jan 13, 2012)
                  > >
                  > > T
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I looked into that and for the first time in internet history, I'm
                  > > > inclined to applaud Diana's posts. She seems to have a keen grasp on
                  > > > anthroposophy, understanding the planetary incarnations (manvantaras
                  > > and
                  > > > pralayas), the difference between biological humanity and human souls
                  > > > between death and rebirth and their relationships to various planets
                  > > and
                  > > > so on. She knocks my socks off with her burst of anthro-wisdom,
                  > > Brother
                  > > > Ted! Some years back I worked very hard on her with lots of lovathons
                  > > > and Pauline Christianity, trying to guide her through a Damascus
                  > > > experience and an Epiphany. So now I'm wondering if Diana has had her
                  > > > Epiphany this Christmas season -- my oh my, an atheist, anti-Christian
                  > > > Sugar Cherub has found the Christ with her soul overflowing with
                  > > > esoteric wisdom, shining like a star on the firmament and lighting up
                  > > > the darkness in Sugarland. By being sweet to them, we've given them
                  > > > sweetness. By the light shining in their direction from
                  > > anthroposophical
                  > > > sources, they're beginning to come around, and Diana -- a name that
                  > > > means "heaven or "divine" according to ancient mythology -- is showing
                  > > > them the way!! Wow!
                  > > >
                  > > > Tarjei
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch"
                  > > > ted.wrinch@ wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Dan Dugan, in response to Diana's starting a serialisation of
                  > > > 'Theosophy of the Rosicrucian':
                  > > > >
                  > > > > "This was, of course, when he was a Theosophist…"
                  > > > >
                  > > > > LMAO! You wonder if, after more than 2 decades of 'criticism', he's
                  > > > ever actually read any
                  > > > > Steiner!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > T.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Ted Wrinch
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • ted.wrinch
                  I m sure you e right but it s a technicality from the perspective I was trying to get at. I was more interested in the anthroposophical conception of time ,
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 13, 2012
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                    I'm sure you'e right but it's a technicality from the perspective I was trying to get at. I was more interested in the anthroposophical conception of 'time', that allows the changed conditions of 'Atlantis' to have existed only 12000 or so 'years' ago - I put 'years' in quotes because Steiner's notion of time that is used here obviously calls the current conception into question. And I put 'Atlantis' in quotes because the notion is so damned strange to our modern ideas.

                    T.

                    Ted Wrinch

                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <fts.trasla@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Actually, Diana is quite right. Often Steiner (and other German authors) uses the present tense when referring to the past. It is clear in context, but can be confusing when translating to English, when some translators do it literally. So if you take a quote out of the context it looks like he's talking about the present. I always change to the past tense when translating, although I have sometimes forgotten.
                    > Frank
                    >
                    > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Diana:
                    > >
                    > > "I wouldn't be so certain, though, that terms that seem obvious, like "today" or
                    > > "now" in Steiner mean the same thing we mean in ordinary daily use."
                    > >
                    > > Roger:
                    > >
                    > > "When Steiner spoke of something that happened 15,000 years ago, for example, the
                    > > only possible interpretation (if words have any meaning at all) is that is
                    > > happened 15,000 years ago (i.e., in our historical epoch).
                    > >
                    > > I think this Rosicrucian fest on WC could be fascinating; I haven't seen them have a wide-ranging discussion on Steiner writing before. Roger appears to think that 'history' includes pre-history, the period before written records existed - 'history' is usually reckoned to have started perhaps 4,000 years ago. I wonder if they'll sort out the time problem, which is a perplexing one, albeit one for which Steiner has left lots of analogical hints that suggest what he understood by it.
                    > >
                    > > T.
                    > >
                    > > Ted Wrinch
                    > >
                    > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > "I am absolutely promoting the reading of anthroposophical literature."
                    > > > ( -- Diana Winters, Sugarland, Jan 13, 2012)
                    > > >
                    > > > T
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I looked into that and for the first time in internet history, I'm
                    > > > > inclined to applaud Diana's posts. She seems to have a keen grasp on
                    > > > > anthroposophy, understanding the planetary incarnations (manvantaras
                    > > > and
                    > > > > pralayas), the difference between biological humanity and human souls
                    > > > > between death and rebirth and their relationships to various planets
                    > > > and
                    > > > > so on. She knocks my socks off with her burst of anthro-wisdom,
                    > > > Brother
                    > > > > Ted! Some years back I worked very hard on her with lots of lovathons
                    > > > > and Pauline Christianity, trying to guide her through a Damascus
                    > > > > experience and an Epiphany. So now I'm wondering if Diana has had her
                    > > > > Epiphany this Christmas season -- my oh my, an atheist, anti-Christian
                    > > > > Sugar Cherub has found the Christ with her soul overflowing with
                    > > > > esoteric wisdom, shining like a star on the firmament and lighting up
                    > > > > the darkness in Sugarland. By being sweet to them, we've given them
                    > > > > sweetness. By the light shining in their direction from
                    > > > anthroposophical
                    > > > > sources, they're beginning to come around, and Diana -- a name that
                    > > > > means "heaven or "divine" according to ancient mythology -- is showing
                    > > > > them the way!! Wow!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Tarjei
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch"
                    > > > > ted.wrinch@ wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Dan Dugan, in response to Diana's starting a serialisation of
                    > > > > 'Theosophy of the Rosicrucian':
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > "This was, of course, when he was a Theosophist…"
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > LMAO! You wonder if, after more than 2 decades of 'criticism', he's
                    > > > > ever actually read any
                    > > > > > Steiner!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > T.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Ted Wrinch
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • elfuncle
                    ... today or ... example, the ... that is ... I noticed that too, and you re absolutely right. Rudolf Steiner s take on history is very interesting: The
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 13, 2012
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                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch" <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Diana:
                      >
                      > "I wouldn't be so certain, though, that terms that seem obvious, like "today" or
                      > "now" in Steiner mean the same thing we mean in ordinary daily use."
                      >
                      > Roger:
                      >
                      > "When Steiner spoke of something that happened 15,000 years ago, for example, the
                      > only possible interpretation (if words have any meaning at all) is that is
                      > happened 15,000 years ago (i.e., in our historical epoch).


                      I noticed that too, and you're absolutely right. Rudolf Steiner's take on history is very interesting: The basic definition of history, at least European or Western history, would run from the present day back to the 7th or 8th century BC. The Greeks of antiquity are the earliest people we are capable of understanding with our modern consciousness. And as you know, Herodotus (484 425 BC) is considered the father of history. If we go back farther, we end up in pre-history, or rather a twilight period that's an intermingling of myths and external events -- the Age of Mythology.

                      The Trojan War ended in 1184 BC, which is very interesting because this war took place in the realm of mythology as well as on the physical plane, with two different sets of explanations or causes. But the works of Homer can't be welded into history proper, and neither can Pythagoras (c. 570–c. 495 BC); they've extracted some of his mathematics and discarded everything else as belonging to his 'obscure cult', as they call it.

                      This enormously significant paradigm shift from the Age of Mythology to the Age of Philosophy and the dawn of human history is as radical as that of the Enlightenment and the birth of modern natural science. And it's fascinating to see how the Scandinavians, for instance, went through this kind of paradigm shift more than a millennium and a half later; they didn't have an Early Middle Age like the rest of Europe, but went directly from pagan-mythological Vikinghood so to speak, to the Christianity of the High Middle Ages. This is an extremely radical paradigm shift, and historians wonder how and why the Vikings made this transition with such apparent ease.

                      The answer, it seems, is twofold: These Vikings, who may be considered "god-forsaken" in a sense, plundered and also settled in Ireland. And this was a time when the doctrine of the Church had not yet reached Ireland, but the Gospel had -- which meant that the Mystery of Golgotha was understood through old pagan spirituality of the Celts and the Druids -- nature religions. They had written the Gospel story in books very beautifully bound and illustrated throughout with images from nature. This is what the Vikings found in Ireland and that resonated with their own mythological background in the same manner. The Vikings brought Irish slaves to Norway; these slaves had heard about the Gospel story, the Mystery of Golgotha, and they told other slaves, peasants, servants etc. -- causing Christianity to spread in a manner not dissimilar from its beginnings in the Roman Empire. This meant that when Olaf Haraldson (King Olaf II of Norway) made Norway a "Christian nation" under church doctrine in 1030, the year of his death on the battlefield, the people had been prepared for this in advance. The irony is -- and this also bears parallel to the days of the early church in Rome -- that the Irish victims of mayhem, rape, killings etc. redeemed their Nordic butchers, who were smitten by their Christianity.

                      The second factor that explains the easy transition from Pagan mythology to medieval Christianity is purely mythological. It has to do with the death of Balder. Balder, the sun god, the good god, was killed by the wicked Loki, who used the mistletoe as a weapon, tricking Balder's blind brother, Hod, god of darkness, to shoot it at his brother. (Read a detailed account of the myth here .)

                      With the death of Balder, there was very deep sadness and grief throughout the land. With this death, the ancient clairvoyance was lost and nature sank into darkness. The Vikings were truly god-forsaken, because their belief in the Nordic gods was based upon inherited memories -- memories dating back to a time when people had walked among the gods. But now, in the early Middle Ages, during this Viking Age, they learned about "Kvitekrist" -- "White-Christ". They learned that the Sun God himself had died for humanity and gone down into Hel, the Underworld -- "Hel" is where the word "Hell" comes from ("Helvete" in Norwegian) -- and rekindled, reawakened Balder.

                      Rudolf Steiner spoke in some detail about the Balder myth in the two lectures under the title "Der Balder-Mythos und das Karfreitag-Mysterium" (The Balder Myth and the Good Friday Mystery), which he gave in Dornach in 1915. (From the volume "Wege der geistligen Erkenntnis und der Erneuerung künstnerischer Weltanschauung", GA 161.)

                      > I think this Rosicrucian fest on WC could be fascinating; I haven't seen them have a wide-ranging discussion on Steiner writing before. Roger appears to think that 'history' includes pre-history, the period before written records existed - 'history' is usually reckoned to have started perhaps 4,000 years ago.

                      Well, you know as the saying goes over there, -- 'Yours for the avoidance of history' or something like that. I think one may expect a lot of entertainment from Sugarland these days. My own Belgian agent there is none other than Hercule Poirot. He may come out of the closet very soon and reveal his true mission to investigate the relationship between Staudenmaier and his cohorts (the Sugar Cherubs), the Jesuits, and the Anthroposophists. (Staudenmaier is an eco-communist, which is why he is in such a tough competition with the eco-fascists and the anthros.) Stay tuned.

                      Tarjei
                    • ted.wrinch
                      Thanks for that Tarjei, I knew the outline but you fill in the details well. There are many parallels, of course, between the myths across cultures, and one
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 14, 2012
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                        Thanks for that Tarjei,

                        I knew the outline but you fill in the details well. There are many parallels, of course, between the myths across cultures, and one that comes to mind is between Baldur and Hod, and Osiris and Set. In general, I find that once one really begins to take the spiritual in history seriously making sense of myth and the transition between myth and history, that you well describe, becomes easier. And even in the historical period proper one becomes aware that there have been many ingresses of spiritual influence. I'm reading Steiner's Building Stones for an Understanding of the Mystery of Golgotha for the first time and it's fascinating to be able to match-up, using the i/net, Steiner's references to spiritual events in Roman history - such as the initiation of emperor Julian ('the apostate') in the Eleusinian mysteries - search for Julian in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries. On this later topic, I took a first year university classics course without the mysteries even being mentioned, even though Cicero describes the significance of their influence thus:

                        "For among the many excellent and indeed divine institutions which your Athens has brought forth and contributed to human life, none, in my opinion, is better than those mysteries. For by their means we have been brought out of our barbarous and savage mode of life and educated and refined to a state of civilization; and as the rites are called "initiations," so in very truth we have learned from them the beginnings of life, and have gained the power not only to live happily, but also to die with a better hope."

                        Laws II, xiv, 36

                        And even the best modern histories that I've come across mostly ignore this spiritual sub-current. We're a long way from getting beyond the 'fable convene'.

                        T.

                        Ted Wrinch

                        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch"
                        > <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Diana:
                        > >
                        > > "I wouldn't be so certain, though, that terms that seem obvious, like
                        > "today" or
                        > > "now" in Steiner mean the same thing we mean in ordinary daily use."
                        > >
                        > > Roger:
                        > >
                        > > "When Steiner spoke of something that happened 15,000 years ago, for
                        > example, the
                        > > only possible interpretation (if words have any meaning at all) is
                        > that is
                        > > happened 15,000 years ago (i.e., in our historical epoch).
                        >
                        > I noticed that too, and you're absolutely right. Rudolf Steiner's take
                        > on history is very interesting: The basic definition of history, at
                        > least European or Western history, would run from the present day back
                        > to the 7th or 8th century BC. The Greeks of antiquity are the earliest
                        > people we are capable of understanding with our modern consciousness.
                        > And as you know, Herodotus (484 425 BC) is considered the father of
                        > history. If we go back farther, we end up in pre-history, or rather a
                        > twilight period that's an intermingling of myths and external events --
                        > the Age of Mythology.
                        >
                        > The Trojan War ended in 1184 BC, which is very interesting because this
                        > war took place in the realm of mythology as well as on the physical
                        > plane, with two different sets of explanations or causes. But the works
                        > of Homer can't be welded into history proper, and neither can Pythagoras
                        > (c. 570–c. 495 BC); they've extracted some of his mathematics and
                        > discarded everything else as belonging to his 'obscure cult', as they
                        > call it.
                        >
                        > This enormously significant paradigm shift from the Age of Mythology to
                        > the Age of Philosophy and the dawn of human history is as radical as
                        > that of the Enlightenment and the birth of modern natural science. And
                        > it's fascinating to see how the Scandinavians, for instance, went
                        > through this kind of paradigm shift more than a millennium and a half
                        > later; they didn't have an Early Middle Age like the rest of Europe, but
                        > went directly from pagan-mythological Vikinghood so to speak, to the
                        > Christianity of the High Middle Ages. This is an extremely radical
                        > paradigm shift, and historians wonder how and why the Vikings made this
                        > transition with such apparent ease.
                        >
                        > The answer, it seems, is twofold: These Vikings, who may be considered
                        > "god-forsaken" in a sense, plundered and also settled in Ireland. And
                        > this was a time when the doctrine of the Church had not yet reached
                        > Ireland, but the Gospel had -- which meant that the Mystery of Golgotha
                        > was understood through old pagan spirituality of the Celts and the
                        > Druids -- nature religions. They had written the Gospel story in books
                        > very beautifully bound and illustrated throughout with images from
                        > nature. This is what the Vikings found in Ireland and that resonated
                        > with their own mythological background in the same manner. The Vikings
                        > brought Irish slaves to Norway; these slaves had heard about the Gospel
                        > story, the Mystery of Golgotha, and they told other slaves, peasants,
                        > servants etc. -- causing Christianity to spread in a manner not
                        > dissimilar from its beginnings in the Roman Empire. This meant that when
                        > Olaf Haraldson (King Olaf II of Norway) made Norway a "Christian nation"
                        > under church doctrine in 1030, the year of his death on the battlefield,
                        > the people had been prepared for this in advance. The irony is -- and
                        > this also bears parallel to the days of the early church in Rome -- that
                        > the Irish victims of mayhem, rape, killings etc. redeemed their Nordic
                        > butchers, who were smitten by their Christianity.
                        >
                        > The second factor that explains the easy transition from Pagan mythology
                        > to medieval Christianity is purely mythological. It has to do with the
                        > death of Balder. Balder, the sun god, the good god, was killed by the
                        > wicked Loki, who used the mistletoe as a weapon, tricking Balder's blind
                        > brother, Hod, god of darkness, to shoot it at his brother. (Read a
                        > detailed account of the myth here
                        > <http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/norsegodspictures/a/baldersdeath.htm\
                        > > .)
                        >
                        > With the death of Balder, there was very deep sadness and grief
                        > throughout the land. With this death, the ancient clairvoyance was lost
                        > and nature sank into darkness. The Vikings were truly god-forsaken,
                        > because their belief in the Nordic gods was based upon inherited
                        > memories -- memories dating back to a time when people had walked among
                        > the gods. But now, in the early Middle Ages, during this Viking Age,
                        > they learned about "Kvitekrist" -- "White-Christ". They learned that the
                        > Sun God himself had died for humanity and gone down into Hel, the
                        > Underworld -- "Hel" is where the word "Hell" comes from ("Helvete" in
                        > Norwegian) -- and rekindled, reawakened Balder.
                        >
                        > Rudolf Steiner spoke in some detail about the Balder myth in the two
                        > lectures under the title "Der Balder-Mythos und das
                        > Karfreitag-Mysterium" (The Balder Myth and the Good Friday Mystery),
                        > which he gave in Dornach in 1915. (From the volume "Wege der geistligen
                        > Erkenntnis und der Erneuerung künstnerischer Weltanschauung", GA
                        > 161.)
                        >
                        > > I think this Rosicrucian fest on WC could be fascinating; I haven't
                        > seen them have a wide-ranging discussion on Steiner writing before.
                        > Roger appears to think that 'history' includes pre-history, the period
                        > before written records existed - 'history' is usually reckoned to have
                        > started perhaps 4,000 years ago.
                        >
                        > Well, you know as the saying goes over there, -- 'Yours for the
                        > avoidance of history' or something like that. I think one may expect a
                        > lot of entertainment from Sugarland these days. My own Belgian agent
                        > there is none other than Hercule Poirot. He may come out of the closet
                        > very soon and reveal his true mission to investigate the relationship
                        > between Staudenmaier and his cohorts (the Sugar Cherubs), the Jesuits,
                        > and the Anthroposophists. (Staudenmaier is an eco-communist, which is
                        > why he is in such a tough competition with the eco-fascists and the
                        > anthros.) Stay tuned.
                        >
                        > Tarjei
                        >
                      • Frank Thomas Smith
                        ... Sorry Tarjei, but Poirot as banned from *this* list and, I thnk, the WC as well. He s probably sunning himself (with tie, hat and jacket on of course) on
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 14, 2012
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                          --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Well, you know as the saying goes over there, -- 'Yours for the
                          > avoidance of history' or something like that. I think one may expect a
                          > lot of entertainment from Sugarland these days. My own Belgian agent
                          > there is none other than Hercule Poirot. He may come out of the closet
                          > very soon and reveal his true mission to investigate the relationship
                          > between Staudenmaier and his cohorts (the Sugar Cherubs), the Jesuits,
                          > and the Anthroposophists. (Staudenmaier is an eco-communist, which is
                          > why he is in such a tough competition with the eco-fascists and the
                          > anthros.) Stay tuned.
                          >
                          > Tarjei


                          Sorry Tarjei, but Poirot as banned from *this* list and, I thnk, the WC as well. He's probably sunning himself (with tie, hat and jacket on of course) on the French Riviera and may not wish to come out of retirement.
                          Sincerely,
                          S. Holms (re)
                        • elfuncle
                          Our Johan (alias Agatha Christie s Poirot) is still active in Sugarland, posting there, doing well. We ve never had the pleasure of interacting with him here
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 14, 2012
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                            Our "Johan" (alias Agatha Christie's Poirot) is still active in Sugarland, posting there, doing well. We've never had the pleasure of interacting with him here at the AT; if he's been here and somebody has banned him, he must have been trolled through a different handle and/or under a different name and email, because that's news to me. But Adorable Darlings, Sugar Cherubs, and Adorable Cherubs tend to be encouraged to emigrate to Sugarland when they show up here, or they do so of their own accord when their views are poorly received by others at the AT.

                            Tarjei


                            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith" <fts.trasla@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Well, you know as the saying goes over there, -- 'Yours for the
                            > > avoidance of history' or something like that. I think one may expect a
                            > > lot of entertainment from Sugarland these days. My own Belgian agent
                            > > there is none other than Hercule Poirot. He may come out of the closet
                            > > very soon and reveal his true mission to investigate the relationship
                            > > between Staudenmaier and his cohorts (the Sugar Cherubs), the Jesuits,
                            > > and the Anthroposophists. (Staudenmaier is an eco-communist, which is
                            > > why he is in such a tough competition with the eco-fascists and the
                            > > anthros.) Stay tuned.
                            > >
                            > > Tarjei
                            >
                            >
                            > Sorry Tarjei, but Poirot as banned from *this* list and, I thnk, the WC as well. He's probably sunning himself (with tie, hat and jacket on of course) on the French Riviera and may not wish to come out of retirement.
                            > Sincerely,
                            > S. Holms (re)
                            >

                          • elfuncle
                            ... Golgotha ... In the north, the mingling of Hyperborean and Rishi civilization produced the new Celtic Civilization. What had been found there originally
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 14, 2012
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                              --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:

                              > These Vikings, who may be considered
                              > "god-forsaken" in a sense, plundered and also settled in Ireland. And
                              > this was a time when the doctrine of the Church had not yet reached
                              > Ireland, but the Gospel had -- which meant that the Mystery of Golgotha
                              > was understood through old pagan spirituality of the Celts and the
                              > Druids -- nature religions. They had written the Gospel story in books
                              > very beautifully bound and illustrated throughout with images from
                              > nature.

                              "In the north, the mingling of Hyperborean and Rishi civilization produced the new Celtic Civilization. What had been found there originally was an Atlantean-Hyperborean element with which little could be done. It was necessary for a new impulse to be given, and the result was the mixing of the Celtic with the Druidic Culture. The reason why Druidic Culture had so much spirituality was because it was still able to absorb the sublime spirituality that surpassed the Atlantean and the Lemurian."
                              ( -- Rudolf Steiner: "The Migrations of the Races ", Berlin 1904 GA Unknown, date unknown)
                              Tarjei
                            • elfuncle
                              If you check out Sugarland, you ll find that our Johan Bruyninckx is still very much alive and kicking there, having written the last five messages in the
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 14, 2012
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                                If you check out Sugarland, you'll find that our "Johan Bruyninckx" is still very much alive and kicking there, having written the last five messages in the forum, and he is in fact running the show -- he hat taken it over. And here is a highlight that may hopefully elicit some reactions and wake them up:

                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waldorf-critics/message/22346

                                Enjoy!

                                Tarjei

                                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Our "Johan" (alias Agatha Christie's Poirot) is still active in
                                > Sugarland, posting there, doing well. We've never had the pleasure of
                                > interacting with him here at the AT; if he's been here and somebody has
                                > banned him, he must have been trolled through a different handle and/or
                                > under a different name and email, because that's news to me. But
                                > Adorable Darlings, Sugar Cherubs, and Adorable Cherubs tend to be
                                > encouraged to emigrate to Sugarland when they show up here, or they do
                                > so of their own accord when their views are poorly received by others at
                                > the AT.
                                >
                                > Tarjei
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith"
                                > <fts.trasla@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@
                                > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Well, you know as the saying goes over there, -- 'Yours for the
                                > > > avoidance of history' or something like that. I think one may expect
                                > a
                                > > > lot of entertainment from Sugarland these days. My own Belgian agent
                                > > > there is none other than Hercule Poirot. He may come out of the
                                > closet
                                > > > very soon and reveal his true mission to investigate the
                                > relationship
                                > > > between Staudenmaier and his cohorts (the Sugar Cherubs), the
                                > Jesuits,
                                > > > and the Anthroposophists. (Staudenmaier is an eco-communist, which
                                > is
                                > > > why he is in such a tough competition with the eco-fascists and the
                                > > > anthros.) Stay tuned.
                                > > >
                                > > > Tarjei
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Sorry Tarjei, but Poirot as banned from *this* list and, I thnk, the
                                > WC as well. He's probably sunning himself (with tie, hat and jacket on
                                > of course) on the French Riviera and may not wish to come out of
                                > retirement.
                                > > Sincerely,
                                > > S. Holms (re)
                                > >
                                >
                              • ted.wrinch
                                What was he smoking - I want some! What would Der Staudi say? O yeah - Rishi (Aryan) supremisim and anti-Hyperboranism! T. Ted Wrinch
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 15, 2012
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                                  What was he smoking - I want some! What would Der Staudi say? O yeah - Rishi (Aryan) supremisim and anti-Hyperboranism!

                                  T.

                                  Ted Wrinch

                                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > These Vikings, who may be considered
                                  > > "god-forsaken" in a sense, plundered and also settled in Ireland. And
                                  > > this was a time when the doctrine of the Church had not yet reached
                                  > > Ireland, but the Gospel had -- which meant that the Mystery of
                                  > Golgotha
                                  > > was understood through old pagan spirituality of the Celts and the
                                  > > Druids -- nature religions. They had written the Gospel story in books
                                  > > very beautifully bound and illustrated throughout with images from
                                  > > nature.
                                  > "In the north, the mingling of Hyperborean and Rishi civilization
                                  > produced the new Celtic Civilization. What had been found there
                                  > originally was an Atlantean-Hyperborean element with which little could
                                  > be done. It was necessary for a new impulse to be given, and the result
                                  > was the mixing of the Celtic with the Druidic Culture. The reason why
                                  > Druidic Culture had so much spirituality was because it was still able
                                  > to absorb the sublime spirituality that surpassed the Atlantean and the
                                  > Lemurian."
                                  > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: "The Migrations of the Races
                                  > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19040000p01.html> ", Berlin 1904 GA
                                  > Unknown, date unknown)
                                  > Tarjei
                                  >
                                • Frank Thomas Smith
                                  ... Tom Mellett was Poirot - but you re right, it must have been back in the Steiner98 list. He crossed swords there with Sherlock Holms (me). This Johan
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jan 15, 2012
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                                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" <elfuncle@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Our "Johan" (alias Agatha Christie's Poirot) is still active in
                                    > Sugarland, posting there, doing well. We've never had the pleasure of
                                    > interacting with him here at the AT; if he's been here and somebody has
                                    > banned him, he must have been trolled through a different handle and/or
                                    > under a different name and email, because that's news to me. But
                                    > Adorable Darlings, Sugar Cherubs, and Adorable Cherubs tend to be
                                    > encouraged to emigrate to Sugarland when they show up here, or they do
                                    > so of their own accord when their views are poorly received by others at
                                    > the AT.

                                    Tom Mellett was Poirot - but you're right, it must have been back in the Steiner98 list. He crossed swords there with Sherlock Holms (me).
                                    This Johan character is so lucid and organized in his thinking and is so at home in the English language (he said so himself), that I strongly suspect that he is, in fact, Father Tom. Johan, please come over for tea and confirm or deny.
                                    Frank



                                    >
                                    > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Thomas Smith"
                                    > <fts.trasla@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Well, you know as the saying goes over there, -- 'Yours for the
                                    > > > avoidance of history' or something like that. I think one may expect
                                    > a
                                    > > > lot of entertainment from Sugarland these days. My own Belgian agent
                                    > > > there is none other than Hercule Poirot. He may come out of the
                                    > closet
                                    > > > very soon and reveal his true mission to investigate the
                                    > relationship
                                    > > > between Staudenmaier and his cohorts (the Sugar Cherubs), the
                                    > Jesuits,
                                    > > > and the Anthroposophists. (Staudenmaier is an eco-communist, which
                                    > is
                                    > > > why he is in such a tough competition with the eco-fascists and the
                                    > > > anthros.) Stay tuned.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Tarjei
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Sorry Tarjei, but Poirot as banned from *this* list and, I thnk, the
                                    > WC as well. He's probably sunning himself (with tie, hat and jacket on
                                    > of course) on the French Riviera and may not wish to come out of
                                    > retirement.
                                    > > Sincerely,
                                    > > S. Holms (re)
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • elfuncle
                                    What was WHO smoking? Me or Steiner? Tarjei ... Rishi (Aryan) supremisim and anti-Hyperboranism! ... ... And ... reached ... books ... could ...
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jan 15, 2012
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                                      What was WHO smoking? Me or Steiner?

                                      Tarjei

                                      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "ted.wrinch"
                                      <ted.wrinch@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > What was he smoking - I want some! What would Der Staudi say? O yeah -
                                      Rishi (Aryan) supremisim and anti-Hyperboranism!
                                      >
                                      > T.
                                      >
                                      > Ted Wrinch
                                      >
                                      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle" elfuncle@
                                      wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "elfuncle"
                                      <elfuncle@>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > These Vikings, who may be considered
                                      > > > "god-forsaken" in a sense, plundered and also settled in Ireland.
                                      And
                                      > > > this was a time when the doctrine of the Church had not yet
                                      reached
                                      > > > Ireland, but the Gospel had -- which meant that the Mystery of
                                      > > Golgotha
                                      > > > was understood through old pagan spirituality of the Celts and the
                                      > > > Druids -- nature religions. They had written the Gospel story in
                                      books
                                      > > > very beautifully bound and illustrated throughout with images from
                                      > > > nature.
                                      > > "In the north, the mingling of Hyperborean and Rishi civilization
                                      > > produced the new Celtic Civilization. What had been found there
                                      > > originally was an Atlantean-Hyperborean element with which little
                                      could
                                      > > be done. It was necessary for a new impulse to be given, and the
                                      result
                                      > > was the mixing of the Celtic with the Druidic Culture. The reason
                                      why
                                      > > Druidic Culture had so much spirituality was because it was still
                                      able
                                      > > to absorb the sublime spirituality that surpassed the Atlantean and
                                      the
                                      > > Lemurian."
                                      > > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: "The Migrations of the Races
                                      > > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19040000p01.html> ", Berlin 1904
                                      GA
                                      > > Unknown, date unknown)
                                      > > Tarjei
                                      > >
                                      >
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