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Re: The Hole Revisited (was: Technology, Science Fi

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  • ted.wrinch
    How surprising Kim. I agree we do sound remarkably similar in the parts of our lives that we have been discussing. I too loved the sense of control to be had
    Message 1 of 34 , May 31, 2010
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      How surprising Kim. I agree we do sound remarkably similar in the parts of our lives that we have been discussing. I too loved the sense of control to be had from working with the tractable realm of the physical. I remember lying in my bath - always a somewhat mystical place for me! - fantasising about making my single board computer project do cool things, in about 1985! It was a pure Ahrimanic power trip, and though I had no conceptual framework to express this to myself intellectually, I knew in my feelings, even then, that this sense of power needed to be circumscribed and controlled, or yoked to something good. I guess your point about the theoretical matched mine too - I've for 20 years been been cautious about the truth of Steiner's writings, since most of them I cannot do more than check the internal consistency of (and often not even that). But there have been many, many instances, often at the edges and in the recesses of consciousness, where they have seemed accurate. And increasingly, with the wonderfully open and democratic knowledge resources of the Ahrimanic internet, it's possible to check Steiner's historical references against the originals - I was checking Pherycides of Syros' writing recently - and this often provides strong confirmatory evidence (though not in the illusory historical world of PS). Not that this has made it any easier to share this knowledge in our Western culture, and I have met only one person I have been able to even mention such things to in the nearly 20 years I've been working in IT (he happens to be my current colleague and friend, and is one of the smartest and most clued-in people I've ever met so I'm really happy :)).

      Interesting points about the drug addict - back magician developmental path. So we could see PS' excesses as a kind of good, that will ultimately lead him back to the light? Let's hope so! I do remember Steiner describing one of our human faculties of the future, where, I think he said, we will be able to feel the Saturnine heat given off by an individual, either hot or cold, or -the worst of all - lukewarm!

      T.

      Ted Wrinch.


      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim Graae Munch" <kimgm@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Ted,
      > You wrote this (which I overlooked):
      >
      > Unlike you Kim, I felt myself catapulted out into the outside world from around the age of 14, and I never had a need to be alone - it was always (and still is) my natural state of being! But I take this to be the natural state of the consciousness soul that hasn't moved forward from an intense awareness of the physical world - this was one thing that inspired me to study physics - and we can see it in all the literature of alienation of the late C19 and through the C20.
      >
      > No, I think we are much alike in this regard. I felt me thrown out into the reality a lot earlier, at seven or earlier. All my fights I did alone, and there was many, forcing me into independence. My parents was never involved in my fights. At fourteen I was free, independent, and not vulnerable to teasing any more.
      > From an introduction I wrote in another (closed) forum:
      >
      > So I have always known about Rosicrucianism, but it first caught my interest at 12 (about the same time as girls found my interest:), where I read the Akasha Cronicles ( <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA011/CM/GA011_index.html> ga11, <http://kimgraaemunch.wordpress.com/2010/03/17/esoteric-history-of-man/> Esoteric History of Man), and it continued to interest me together with psychology, mathematics, chemistry, physics, tuning moped's, rock music, and girls up through my teens.
      >
      > As dreadful my childhood as fun my teens, before it again became somewhat less fun at the university, which was kind of practical Zen.
      > I usually say that I had the most materialistic profession in the world: I controlled the physical through programming, and I loved it and I was good at it. Until five year ago I haven't had any personal spiritual experiences, and not anything clairvoyant at all. But I have had enough experiences to show that my theoretical knowledge was right and it had also extended my knowledge beyond.
      > Kim
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ted.wrinch
      > Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 7:20 PM
      > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Hole Revisited (was: Technology, Science Fi
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I've always found 'mind soul' quite difficult to distinguish from 'consciousness soul' in the past Dottie. They are both concerned with understanding and things of the intellect. But the 'mind soul' was the next to develop, after the sentient soul, and had special prominence in ancient Greece, where all the great philosophies started and people began simply thinking things out for themselves for the first time. But you are right that there was still a connection to a higher strata of being - the True, the Good and the Beautiful - and the people of the mind soul never quite lost touch with the spiritual world. Which bring us to the consciousness soul era and us, where many people in the last few hundred years have completely lost touch with the spiritual world, and I include myself in this category. Unlike you Kim, I felt myself catapulted out into the outside world from around the age of 14, and I never had a need to be alone - it was always (and still is) my natural state of being! But I take this to be the natural state of the consciousness soul that hasn't moved forward from an intense awareness of the physical world - this was one thing that inspired me to study physics - and we can see it in all the literature of alienation of the late C19 and through the C20.
      >
      > I agree with you Kim that my formulation of purging in purgatory wasn't quite right - it's more a forced becoming aware of one's wrongs, through having to see things from the other's point of view. That's a good point about loss of the ego and I hadn't thought of it from that perspective; becoming more like the animals and less like the human is a good way to put it . But this sounds like the action of the Asuras, whose action I understand to be irreversible, which would presumably reduce the normal self correcting, self educational possibilities of karma.
      >
      > T.
      >
      > Ted Wrinch
      > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> , "Kim Graae Munch" <kimgm@> wrote:
      > >
      > > About 27 I could control my dreams as I wanted, just like creating a film, and thereafter I didn't dream until fifty, and the dreams changed character and I couldn't manipulate them. I think I had three dreams in the intermediate period which I could remember, so I think I should learn to be fully alone, spiritually seen, in that period.
      > > I don't think you can make something which is unpurgeable as such, but you can destroy your own ego and get closer to the wild animals which don't create karma they themselves are responsible for.
      > > He will build a setup where he can play his game again and again until he gets tired of it. Karma isn't a punishment but a help to get on and a part of your future being. I think Daskalos gives a good description of the afterlife.
      > > Franks translation of intellectual soul "Comprehension or Sensitivity soul" is good, but I prefer "Heart and Mind soul" which better tells what the Lower I consists of.
      > > Kim
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of ted.wrinch
      > > Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 4:47 PM
      > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > Subject: SV: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Hole Revisited (was: Technology, Science Fi
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Wow Kim,
      > >
      > > That's a lot of material! And it's nice to know that you, and others, can get direct experience of these realms of being. - it's what I've always assumed, and is something I found to a degree in my wife (it's one thing that drew us together: she says I can sometimes understand her like few others and that I can reflect the work-a-day world to her in a way that makes sense to her). I guess you didn't work with the esoteric for long periods because your life and fate didn't require it, whilst you were learning the skills of the software practitioner? It's been my impression that I am here to work within the world that is too, to be in it, if not entirely of it. But also that I am now maybe moving past that point, especially as the kids are nearly grown, and that I may need to pursue different tasks, with a different style in the remainder of my life.
      > >
      > > Unfortunately, I very rarely remember dreams: I'm maybe quite a strange curmudgeon! But, interestingly, I did have a dream during the PS exchange, at a point where I was going to call it a day. The dream was a travelling one, with a powerful sense that I was not in the right place. When I woke up, I had a missing piece of the argument I needed to make with PS in my mind; I took this, and the dream, as signs that I needed to continue the engagement a bit longer.
      > >
      > > LOL about PS' creating the hell of his life after death from his misdeeds today: I can totally see that and my response after seeing the Aristotelian fallacies, and that last evasion of thought concerning my argument about Newton's second law, was to pity him. But this notion of a purgatory, that PS is creating for himself, is a commonplace one, and is there not something more and different going on here too? Something to do with his scorn, love of power (as you say), dishonesty, lack of love and general embrace of the Ahrimanic side of life? Is he not, by pursuing this path, creating something for himself that will not be purgeable in purgatory or even his next life?
      > >
      > > "If there are more steps in this trial depends on where you are in the current period, see my paper, but don't worry fate will guide you to the next:)."
      > >
      > > Thanks - I will!
      > >
      > > T.
      > >
      > > Ted Wrinch.
      > >
      > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> , Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > It's difficult to see whats happening when you are in the middle of it all. I have known about Rosicrucianism from childhood, and read Akasha Chronicles with great enthusiasm when I were thirteen, but in long periods of my life I didn't actively work with the esoteric, even though my world view where Rosicrucian. Until five year ago I knew the seven layered model of man's bodies, but I didn't care the least for the three soul bodies. I began having some interesting dreams, which I could interpret in Jungian sense, but it irritated me that I couldn't relate it to Steiner. After lot's of experiencing, thinking and inspiration I found out: Dream Interpretation in
      > > > Esoteric Work. I have made a table with Jung's, Steiner's, Aristotle's, some Hebrew names, Kabalistic names, and I connect the bodies with the periods in life where we specifically work on them.
      > > > So when I talk about your sentient soul I talk about your Anima!-) and thats more intuitively understandable, but intellectually seen still somewhat vague, but with both Jung and Steiner's texts it becomes much simpler. With some practical dream interpretation, where Fritz
      > > > Perls methods is better than Jung's and more like Steiner's (and my own:), see more on that in my previous mentioned work.
      > > > All through our lives we are put on trials and when you left you had made one more. I can remember specific non spectacular situations in life, where I felt that something special happened.
      > > > For PS it's become a kind of narcotics, and if he don't get off it before death, he has to fight with it after death also. PS is expert in not loosing face, every kind of trick, lying, spreading smoke, and manipulation are used to take the power out of his opponents blows and make his own attacks look heavy.
      > > > If there are more steps in this trial depends on where you are in the current period, see my paper, but don't worry fate will guide you to the next:).
      > > >
      > > > Kim
      > > >
      > > > I append my paper:
      > > > Dreams in Esoteric Work
      > > > An Overlooked Discipline
      > > > I have worked with dream interpretation for many years, but have not
      > > > seen much about it within Theosophical or Anthroposophical literature,
      > > > so I wanted to see what was written on this subject.
      > > >
      > > > Steiner has this general advice in connection with the understanding
      > > > of the spiritual world (GA156):
      > > > The only way we can experience anything from the
      > > > spiritual world is to understand that we must take what it offers us
      > > > as letters and words, which we must learn to read. That is it. And not
      > > > to learn, to believe that we can spare ourselves learning to read the
      > > > esoteric script, would be just as clever as someone taking a book and
      > > > saying, â€Å"There are fools who say that something is expressed in this
      > > > book. I thumb from page to page in it and see only pretty letters.”
      > > > those who cannot read the letters absorb only what they see and are
      > > > unconcerned about what is expressed.
      > > > He states that we should learn to understand the messages from the
      > > > spiritual world, they are there, but we should try to understand them.
      > > > From
      > > > the Content of the Esoteric Classes, Archive No. 6912 we have the
      > > > following around the methodology:
      > > > One gradually notices that one’s dream life takes on a
      > > > more regular character. The spiritual world flows into this at first.
      > > > Meditation is the occult key for this. One should get a
      > > > notebook and briefly write down characteristic dreams in the morning.
      > > > Thereby, one gets practice in retaining what flows to one from higher
      > > > worlds. That’s the first elementary method to later get to
      > > > bringing spiritual experiences through, that is, that they break
      > > > through into bright day consciousness. Dreams that are only
      > > > reminiscences from daily life or that are based on heart disturbances,
      > > > headaches or other bodily conditions are only of value if they’re
      > > > clothed in a symbolical form, for instance if the thumping heart
      > > > appears as a cooking oven, or the painful brain as a dome into which
      > > > animals creep, etc. Only the symbolism is of value here and
      > > > not the dream’s content. For the symbolic form is initially
      > > > used by the spiritual world to introduce us to the forces of higher
      > > > worlds. That’s why one must pay attention to the fine points of this
      > > > symbolism.
      > > > I would add, get a notebook and write the dreams down each time you
      > > > wake, there can easily be more than one pressing message a night. More
      > > > on this in Guideline
      > > > to Dream Interpretation.
      > > > The persons who appear in dreams are all part of you, with few
      > > > exceptions, if a person hinders you in the dream, it’s an aspect of
      > > > yourself that are the cause (GA156), this is vital to understand, as
      > > > it’s all too easy to project the dreams and problems out onto others:
      > > > If, for example, one person fights or wounds another, you
      > > > experience yourself as the inflictor of the wound and also as the
      > > > soul that is wounded or attacked. You are everything in these images.
      > > > You are utterly within them. If you had an image in front of you in
      > > > which a beheading is depicted you experience yourself at the same time
      > > > as the person who is beheaded and the person who does the beheading.
      > > > That is how you experience yourself within this very fluctuating world
      > > > of images. You yourself are every image and every movement in it.
      > > > Following Bobby
      > > > Matherne is Fritz
      > > > Perls a good representative for this methology:
      > > > Fritz Perls taught people to interpret every component of
      > > > a dream as a part of their own self. If you are driving a car and
      > > > some one is skating in front of you slowing you down, you are both the
      > > > driver of the car and the skater. If you then encounter a woman whose
      > > > pickup truck is broken down, you are both the truck and the woman
      > > > seeking help.
      > > > I have written a text where I relate the dream terminology of Jung to
      > > > esoteric terminology:Â What
      > > > are the feminine and masculine sides we all talk about?
      > > > In communication with the higher self Steiner have the following,
      > > > concerning dreams, and the students relation to the higher self, From
      > > > the Content of the Esoteric Classes, 10-26-’09:
      > > > Anyone who has a hidden opposition to his teacher
      > > > will find that this feeling soon breaks through and adversely
      > > > influences the effect of meditation. In an esoteric’s daily
      > > > meditations he should keep it in mind that he’s mainly trying to get
      > > > through to his higher self, and he should reflect on what this higher
      > > > self is. He shouldn’t think that he’s supposed to bring
      > > > something to this higher self â€" he should have an expectant
      > > > attitude towards him and expect everything from him.
      > > > Usually there are three ways in which it approaches a pupil on his
      > > > path. The first way is a rather flitting one and it requires
      > > > the attentiveness that an esoteric should have for all things. Namely,
      > > > this is in a dream, and what happens there is what one calls a
      > > > doubling of the I. For instance, one has a problem or wants to do
      > > > something. Then someone appears to one in a dream who tells one what to
      > > > do or who solves the problem, one who is better and cleverer than
      > > > oneself. One should pay attention to such dreams.
      > > > Karma and Dreams
      > > > My experience is that dreams 99,9% of the time has to do with the
      > > > previous day. When you go through the events of the day, just before
      > > > you sleep, you may catch incidences where you created karma, but by
      > > > understanding what you did wrong, you have a chance to correct the error
      > > > in the current life, instead of saving it for future incarnations. I
      > > > think the dreams have a similar function, where the dream tries to
      > > > instill your subconscious to evade the situation again, but if you
      > > > understand your dream, you can work consciously on it also. So if your
      > > > car is broke or you can’t find the key’s, you can’t find the way, you
      > > > jump on a trampoline (and don’t get anywhere), are too late for the
      > > > train, you start in kindergarten, it’s all a reference to the day
      > > > before, that there is something you should do differently. I think those
      > > > dreams get more intense with age, as the possibility to understand and
      > > > change the situation grows with maturity. You should see the dreams as
      > > > messages from your Higher I telling you where you went wrong, and it
      > > > can be depressing as most dreams are negative telling where to correct
      > > > things, but if you do well, you may get a dream where you fly with on a
      > > > private jet, come in a higher class in the school, even a chaste kiss
      > > > for particularly good work in a complicated situation, and so on,
      > > > showing progress.
      > > > Jung and Steiner
      > > > If both Jung and Steiner were right, there had to be a common ground,
      > > > and that I describe in What
      > > > are the feminine and masculine sides we all talk about? I don’t
      > > > describe precisely what Animus and Anima are, as it is explained better
      > > > by others, but I show where they fit into the seven layer model of man,
      > > > and how they fit into the Steiner and Aristotle model. It may extend the
      > > > understanding of both models.
      > > > The three Soul components:
      > > > Sentient soul represents Anima for men and Animus for woman,Intellectual soul, also called Heart and Mind soul, represents the
      > > > Lower â€ËÅ"I’/Persona/Ego, andConsciousness soul, also called Spirit soul, represents the Higher
      > > > â€ËÅ"I’.
      > > > This table relates the Jung symbolism to various esoteric models,
      > > > especially the model of Aristotle/Steiner:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > The
      > > > Bodies
      > > >
      > > > of Man
      > > > Steiner
      > > >
      > > > Aristotle
      > > >
      > > > Hebrew
      > > > Age
      > > >
      > > > From â€" To
      > > >
      > > > Chakra
      > > > Feminine
      > > > associations
      > > > Usage
      > > > In Dreams
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Man
      > > > Woman
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > 1
      > > > Physical body
      > > >
      > > > Malkuth
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Physical Body
      > > > 0
      > > > â€" (7)
      > > >
      > > > Root
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > 2
      > > > Etheric body
      > > >
      > > > Yesod
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Ether or Life body
      > > >
      > > > Threptikon
      > > > (7)
      > > > â€" (14)
      > > >
      > > > Generative
      > > > Lilith
      > > > Anima
      > > > Animus
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Sentient body
      > > >
      > > > Aesthetikon
      > > > (14) â€" 21
      > > >
      > > > Solar Plexus
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > 3
      > > > Astral body
      > > >
      > > > Hod
      > > >
      > > > Kama
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Sentient soul
      > > >
      > > > Orektikon
      > > >
      > > > Nephesch
      > > > 21 â€" 28
      > > >
      > > > Heart
      > > > Maria Magdalene
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Lower I
      > > >
      > > > The Persona
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > 4
      > > > Ego
      > > >
      > > > Netzach
      > > >
      > > > Nous
      > > >
      > > > Monad
      > > > Intellectual soul or
      > > >
      > > > Heart and Mind soul
      > > >
      > > > Kinetikon
      > > >
      > > > Ruach
      > > > 28
      > > > â€" 35
      > > >
      > > > Throat
      > > > Maria, Cleophas wife
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Consciousness soul or
      > > >
      > > > Spirit soul
      > > >
      > > > Dianoetikon
      > > >
      > > > N’schamah
      > > > 35
      > > > â€" 42
      > > >
      > > > Brow
      > > > Virgin Sophia
      > > > Higher I
      > > >
      > > > The Divine Child
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > 5
      > > > Manas
      > > >
      > > > Tiphareth Transformed astral body
      > > > Spirit self
      > > > 42
      > > > â€" 49
      > > >
      > > > Crown
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > The
      > > > Teacher
      > > >
      > > > The Wise Man or Woman
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > 6
      > > > Buddhi
      > > >
      > > > Chesed Transformed etheric body
      > > > Life spirit
      > > > 49
      > > > â€" 56
      > > > The World Mother
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > 7
      > > > Atma
      > > >
      > > > Geburah Transformed physical body
      > > > Spirit body
      > > > 56
      > > > â€" 63
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Dream Symbols and interpretation
      > > > Anima/Animus
      > > > Anima/Animus
      > > > represents the base unconscious Feelings and
      > > > the Ether body, and are represented by female actors in mens dreams and
      > > > male actors in womens dreams. It can be your husband/wife, friends,
      > > > colleagues, classmates, old girlfriends/boyfriends, or an unknown
      > > > person.
      > > > As it concerns feelings, you seldom speak
      > > > with your Anima/Animus, it’s mostly some kind of action, Love or some
      > > > affection, or the opposite to that, showing the state between your
      > > > feminine and masculine side.
      > > > Animus/Anima can in real seldom
      > > > situations represent your physical body, if there is something which
      > > > should be taken care of. And remember, it’s the opposite of your own
      > > > gender.
      > > > A.Andrew
      > > > Gonzales,www.sublimatrix.com
      > > > Ego, Persona or Lower â€ËÅ"I’
      > > > The Ego, the Lower
      > > > â€ËÅ"I’ represents Thinking, and is
      > > > represented by the dreamer in the dream. One of the goals is to unify
      > > > the Lower â€ËÅ"I’ with the corresponding Anima/Animus, that is Feeling and
      > > > Thinking. The relation is connected with the Chymical Wedding.
      > > > Shadows or False Ego’s
      > > > There can also be other actors (Shadows),
      > > > playing the role of False Egoâ€ËÅ"s . Typically
      > > > friends, classmates, colleagues, or less common, typically in groups,
      > > > unknown players. These persons sometimes characterize traits which tells
      > > > what the dream is about, but in all circumstances it’s easier for the
      > > > â€Å"dreaming facility” to use an existing person than to create a new
      > > > personality.
      > > > The Shadow’s I see as debris
      > > > flowing around in the unconscious mind blocking the Chakras. They are
      > > > the background for the plot of the dreams.
      > > > The False Ego’s are the
      > > > persona’s we set up when relating to other people to hide us behind,
      > > > protect our selves, or to impress other persons. Their role in the
      > > > dreams are to show that they are there and to remove them you have to
      > > > recognize them. There can of course be persons in the dream which is
      > > > only extras just to give the background, but then they will be out of
      > > > focus, they will be difficult to remember.
      > > > Higher â€ËÅ"I’, The Divine Child
      > > > The Higher â€ËÅ"I’
      > > > represents the Willing, and is usually
      > > > represented by a child, or teenager in the dream. Whatever happens to
      > > > the child is a result of your life. The more the child prosper the
      > > > better. The goal is to become the Divine Child.
      > > > The Wise Teacher
      > > > One more role is the Teacher,
      > > > which I presumes represents the Spirit self, and in dreams usually
      > > > shown as your Father, Mother, a Teacher, or Chief from your real life,
      > > > who you have some respect for. They can in the dream be connected with
      > > > the next floor upstairs. Can be both sexes, but I think it’s mostly of
      > > > the opposite gender.
      > > > Dream Symbols
      > > > Three other symbols which are paramount in dreams are your
      > > > House, various Schools, and
      > > > Transport Vehicles:
      > > > In dreams the House usually represents
      > > > your physical and psychical state of development. Is it clean, is it in
      > > > chaos, are you building on your second or third floor, is it finished?
      > > > The schools tells a little about how it
      > > > is going, are you in a kindergarten, school, High School, or the
      > > > University? Are there room for you, have you forgotten your books, and
      > > > so forth.
      > > > In dreams transport vehicles tells about
      > > > how your journey is progressing. If you are riding a bicycle you are not
      > > > doing especially well. Your car can go out of gasoline, you may have
      > > > lost your ticket for the bus, come late for the train, or you got a
      > > > first class ticket for the airplane.
      > > > Numbers
      > > > It is extremely seldom that numbers in dreams are remembered, as they
      > > > normally have no meaning. It’s like reading a book in a dream, where
      > > > the reading is remembered not the text. If you remember a number it’s
      > > > important to write it down quickly. What the number signifies depends on
      > > > the context, it could be the number of days, time of day, number of
      > > > hours, a specific date, and so forth.
      > > > Names
      > > > It’s also seldom to hear Noun’s in dreams, so when your hear one, try
      > > > to find out what it stands for. Some of these names can be quite
      > > > humorous, but still contain vital information.
      > > > Anonymous dream persons
      > > > Actual people from the real world will be played by anonymous
      > > > players, you have to use the context to decipher the real world
      > > > implication.
      > > > Periods
      > > > In the table there are shown seven years periods connected to various
      > > > chakras. Each period handles a given set of problems each person have
      > > > to work with, and the chakras are a description of these. Cycles of Seven.
      > > > Here and Now
      > > > Most dreams are rather concrete, and they accentuate specific
      > > > problems from the day before, and these problems are typically waves of
      > > > underlying currents, life themes, which should be handled.
      > > > What makes dreams difficult to understand are that we live in the
      > > > middle of our problems, that we cant overview our own situation; but our
      > > > dreams can, and if we learn to interpret our dreams it will help us to
      > > > understand our own situation.
      > > > Dream Interpretation and Chakras
      > > > From time to time there may be dreams telling about your progress or
      > > > in which areas you have problems; here some symbols and colors related
      > > > to the Chakras.
      > > > The Figure are the symbol of the Chakra, hold the cursor above the
      > > > symbol, a short text maybe with a word in UPPERCASE, tells what which
      > > > part to look for, as an example is Muladhara’s symbol a Square. Clicking
      > > > on a symbol opens a Vortex of Light description of the Chakra. The
      > > > Crown chakra has no dream symbol as I am aware of.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Chakra
      > > > Color
      > > > Animal
      > > > Figure
      > > > Comments
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Sahasrara Crown
      > > > Purple
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Moon ?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Ajna
      > > >
      > > > Third Eye
      > > >
      > > > Pineal
      > > > Indigo
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Clairvoyance, psychic abilities, imagination, dreaming,
      > > > Mercury.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Vishuddha Throat
      > > > Blue
      > > > White elephant
      > > >
      > > > Pressure when you are not communicating your emotions
      > > > properly, Venus.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Ahanhata Heart
      > > > Green
      > > > Birds, animals with antlers
      > > >
      > > > Lack of compassion, Sun.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Manipura Navel
      > > >
      > > > Solar Plexus
      > > > Yellow
      > > > Sacrificial animal
      > > >
      > > > Personal Power, anger or a sense of victimization, Mars.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Svadhistana SacralHara
      > > > Orange
      > > > Water animals
      > > >
      > > > Emotional problems or sexual guilt, Jupiter.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Muladhara Root
      > > > Red
      > > > Elephant, horse, and other big and heavy animals
      > > >
      > > > Earth, survival, grounding, stillness, Saturn.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- Den fre 28/5/10 skrev ted.wrinch <ted.wrinch@>:
      > > >
      > > > Fra: ted.wrinch <ted.wrinch@>
      > > > Emne: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Hole Revisited (was: Technology, Science Fiction, and Anthroposophy)
      > > > Til: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > Dato: fredag 28. maj 2010 23.43
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Â
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > That's very interesting Kim. Although I've read and thought about Steiner and things esoteric for more than 20 years, I don't consider that I have much talent for these subjects and have made but slow progress in enlightenment beyond the first and early years (which rocketed ahead!). I consider myself to have been a normal Joe up till nearly my mid-20s, when that world no longer worked. So when you speak of 'sentient soul' I always have to try and piece together a web of concepts and intellectual constructions, taken from what I can remember of Steiner over the years; it's not something I can easily intuit and I wonder if I really should have taken up some of the meditational practises in this regard. But anyway, to give it a try, our sentient soul was developed in the Egypto-Chaldean etc period and is the time when we first developed an inner life of soul separate from the life of the world around us; it is the single point spark of our ego lighting up
      > > > in our astral body (another difficult concept for me). But, as I understand it, at that time these sentient soul impressions bore in upon us like a force of nature and we were not yet able to step back and think about them. And the impressions in those days still contained a degree of self explanation in terms of spiritual pictures, such as the Egyptians used in their script and their accounts of the world of their gods. But since then we've had the 'mind' soul (I understand that 'mind' may not be the best translation of the German word Steiner used) and now consciousness soul, and so the sentient soul lies deeper and presumably has changed. So when you use the term now I'm guessing that you are referring to the sub-intellectual, not always fully conscious, emotional aspects of the engagement with PS (the other's don't seem more than his acolytes, and so not really worth considering)? I think that Aristotle may have been a genius in this regard because
      > > > the point when I stepped back a bit from the engagement and started measuring up what PS was saying against his list of fallacies was the time when I felt I could move on. No subjects were won in the engagement but neither were they lost, and there is potentially a record of evidence there showing up PS' sentient soul tricks. He's so very good at them that one might assume that he's consciously using them; on the other hand, I suspect that familiarity has made him loose awareness of this -what you call the point when it should no longer be necessary and becomes a waste of time. It's interesting to consider that a non logical fallacy is, strictly speaking, a tautology, where the conclusion is contained in the terms. So all real arguments must contain a degree of emotional motivation, inductive logic and stuff that could come under the heading of the fallacies. What Aristotle does I guess is sensitise you when those fallacies are used illegitimately…
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > If you are saying this is a valid step of initiation (for me) do you consider there are other steps to be taken in this context?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Best,
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > T.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Ted Wrinch.
      > > >
      > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> , "Kim Graae Munch" <kimgm@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Yes, see it as part of your education, a step on your initiation part. To
      > > >
      > > > > recognize manipulation, especially of one self is a prerequisite for the
      > > >
      > > > > development. But you shouldnt indulge in it any longer than necessary, it's
      > > >
      > > > > then waste of time and not good for the (sentient) soul. And the knowledge
      > > >
      > > > > that people excel in these manipulations for fun, to fill an otherwise
      > > >
      > > > > booring life, is worth knowing, also because one self may have some splint
      > > >
      > > > > of it also.
      > > >
      > > > > If I remember right, one anthro participant dreamt about a trampoline, that
      > > >
      > > > > is, jumping on the same place, without any progress.
      > > >
      > > > > Kim
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > >
      > > > > From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > >
      > > > > [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of ted.wrinch
      > > >
      > > > > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:18 PM
      > > >
      > > > > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > >
      > > > > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Hole Revisited (was: Technology,
      > > >
      > > > > Science Fiction, and Anthroposophy)
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > I can see your point Kim - he certainly does appear to get a buzz out of it
      > > >
      > > > > and that's not something that I want to indulge too much. And, AFAI can see,
      > > >
      > > > > there are fewer and fewer people, other than Steiner haters, that ever visit
      > > >
      > > > > that pace, so you may be right that it will just die under the weight of
      > > >
      > > > > it's own negativity if left alone - just I haven't quite been able to do
      > > >
      > > > > that yet. But I feel I may have reached some kind of watershed now, perhaps
      > > >
      > > > > a kind of Ahrimanic, negative initiation, so I understand quite a bit more
      > > >
      > > > > about people like PS, which I take it we will meet and have to deal with in
      > > >
      > > > > life (I have met a few in my IT life so far - though none as smart or
      > > >
      > > > > duplicitous as PS).
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > I possibly am being played Taz. But it's also seemed to me - however
      > > >
      > > > > misguidedly on my part - that on a couple of subjects where I know
      > > >
      > > > > something, and can see his demoness rubbishing them, that I should step in
      > > >
      > > > > to try and provide a bit of balance to the lie-fest that passes for truth
      > > >
      > > > > over there. As for the bullshit - well I try to let them have the lion's
      > > >
      > > > > share of that. And I have learnt things there, dark happenings of the night
      > > >
      > > > > to do with polemics and distorted reasoning, but when I started I knew
      > > >
      > > > > nothing, and it seems to me that understanding something of the dark arts of
      > > >
      > > > > his demoness provides a degree of defence. But I agree that love's best -
      > > >
      > > > > just I don't think that I'm advanced enough for that in this lifetime (I
      > > >
      > > > > thought your Diana lovefest a few years ago was really cool, though I'm not
      > > >
      > > > > sure that she did).
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Best,
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > T.
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Ted Wrinch
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > >
      > > > > <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> , "elfuncle"
      > > >
      > > > > <elfuncle@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > > --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > >
      > > > > <mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow%40yahoogroups.com> , "ted.wrinch"
      > > >
      > > > > > <ted.wrinch@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > > > Dan didn't quite manage the final boot, as I've booted myself after
      > > >
      > > > > > loosing the will to continue when I counted 3 of the Aristotelian
      > > >
      > > > > > logical fallacies in a single sentence by the chief demon.
      > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > > The reason Dan hasn't booted you is that they have no other so-called
      > > >
      > > > > > "defenders of the faith" to play with. They find you useful. But you're
      > > >
      > > > > > being played. I'm not saying you shouldn't, just be aware of it. I would
      > > >
      > > > > > compare you to the clowns in the rodeo when they take the bull's
      > > >
      > > > > > attention away from the man who has been thrown off, so the beast won't
      > > >
      > > > > > kill him with its horns. So you can exhaust their precious intellectual
      > > >
      > > > > > resources on all kinds nonsense and love of arguing and ridiculing. Keep
      > > >
      > > > > > them tied down that way, so other anthroposophists can publish their
      > > >
      > > > > > websites, blogs, media articles, run their schools, practice
      > > >
      > > > > > anthro-extended medicine and grow biodynamic fruits & veggies without
      > > >
      > > > > > too much disturbance from those quarters. Keep them busy, and the more
      > > >
      > > > > > bullshit the better. Bullshit is allowed in the hole as long as you
      > > >
      > > > > > throw some references to anthroposophy into it, and if you have to call
      > > >
      > > > > > them names, use sweet ones, give them love and compliments.
      > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > > Shower them with Pauline letters and Gospel love, keep it all on topic
      > > >
      > > > > > by throwing in a Steiner comment about a Gospel passage here and there.
      > > >
      > > > > > Tell them how much Jesus, Paul, Buddha, Rudolf and you and I love them
      > > >
      > > > > > and how happy we will be to see them saved and enlightened, because we'd
      > > >
      > > > > > be very saddened if they all end up as sponges for us to tread upon in
      > > >
      > > > > > the swamps of Future Jupiter. Give them moralistic sermons with plenty
      > > >
      > > > > > of references to Steiner and the Bible. Bless their hard and tortured
      > > >
      > > > > > hearts and send them my loving regards.
      > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > > Cheers,
      > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > > Tarjei
      > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Kim Graae Munch
      Hi Ted, I have mostly read Steiners book quickly, understanding what I could, and skipped the rest as unimportant or not to find out, as most others, I think.
      Message 34 of 34 , Jun 3, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Ted,
        I have mostly read Steiners book quickly, understanding what I could, and skipped the rest as unimportant or not to find out, as most others, I think. But recently I started looking into the open questions, a snippet from an earlier post:

        Steiner puts forward the question who the new Michael is, but there are many more questions than that: Who is the old Michael, who is Skythianos, Zarathustra, Gabriel, Ahriman, Lucifer, Jahve, Isis, Sophia, and other of the preferred names Steiner uses? Why is Gabriel called the messenger of God in the bible? What about the relation of the Elemental beings in relation to our development cycle, and their relation to Christ? What about the Ahrimanic Spirits? What about the Demiurge and the Æons and their relations to the hierarchies from the Thrones down to the Elemental of the third kind? Why are each new Æon lower in the hierarchy than the previous? When Steiner says that the planets from Earth and inward are within man, and the planets from Mars and out until Saturn are outside man, what does he mean by that? What is the new Cosmic Principle? What's behind Adam one and Adam two? Why does the Angels dessert man, as described in Dotties post (I don't know), and whats behind the statement that Adam one and the Nathan Soul is sistersouls. What about our stragglers in the animal, and Plant kingdom? And so forth.

        When you are born, you live in the mothers etherbody, and your own etherbody is build from the layout placed in your astral body, the karma which should be handled in this life. When the etherbody is build, your astral body is clear of karmic stuff, but we start quickly filling it again. When you through your life don't accumulate too much karma and manage the current life's karma in this life, your chakras in the astral body can be set running after they have been cleaned up. The astral body with your own rebuild astral organs is now used to make a new etheric body (in dreams or the bible known as a beautiful mantle, good jacket, shirt,...), without the dependence of karma, the Zodiac, as it was before.
        That we impress change on the astral more quickly than the etheric I hadn't thought of in connection with this, but that's right. The three days, seven days, and forty days periods are when working on the etheric body.

        I don't think it's the right to say running backwards in time. The fat man is older than his age, when he looses weight, becomes more healthy, he becomes younger, and I think it's the same for the etherbody.

        Steiner says that most university people are young souls, but thats of course also the right place to learn about the physical universe before it gets practical, fulfilling the young souls curiosity ;-)

        Kim
        --- Den tors 3/6/10 skrev ted.wrinch <ted.wrinch@...>:

        Fra: ted.wrinch <ted.wrinch@...>
        Emne: SV: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Hole Revisited (was: Technology, Science Fi
        Til: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Dato: torsdag 3. juni 2010 21.42

         

        Kim,

        I recognise many of your insights, but I think you are much further along the road than I. I am finding that as I re-read or read for the first time parts of Steiner, it is a little easier for my mind, that so naturally inclines to the physical, to pick things up and put them into place. Your point about the ether body running backwards in time as it is unburdened of the need hold karmic memory seems right; as is the accumulation of new debt in the astral body. This aligns with Steiner's observation that we impress change onto the astral much more quickly than the etheric, in the manner of the relative speed of rotation of the minute and hour hands of a clock.

        I remember when I first read Occult Science it took me some 6 months to get through and even then I couldn't really say I could make much of it. I found the most difficult part the incarnations of worlds, and for many years this all seemed something that only existed in Steiner's cosmology. But this is one of the things I liked in the Steiner Pherecydes reference: you can seem to see in Pherecydes account of Chronos, Cthonie and Zas (Zeus), and of Zas dressing Cthonie to become Gaia, a part of the recapitulation described in Occult Science. But it doesn't seem at all possible to be sure about this.

        I guess you may think Penrose an old soul because he's a Platonist; and that would make the positivist Stephen Hawking a young soul. My wife has always thought I am more Hawking than Penrose. But I also know that Penrose is not willing to jump very far off the tracks as he refused to even acknowledge receipt of Nick Thomas' book.

        Thanks for all the references and suggestions for the road ahead,

        Best,

        T.

        Ted Wrinch.

        --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <kimgm@...> wrote:
        >
        > When I were around 30 I said that I was born old and grow younger,
        > became more free with time. When younger there were things I didn't do
        > because it was stupid, when I got older I took more chances, but I knew
        > beforehand what I did, I joked with that I could put a percentage on the
        > chances for problems.
        > The rule about sinning is, that if you know you sin, you can manage the
        > karma in this life, otherwise you have to handle it in a new
        > incarnation. That's the reason to analyze the days work before you go to
        > sleep, and it's also the reason for dream interpretation.
        >
        > Both cycling and vegetarianism are not only a good idea it can also be
        > an important step on the road, which is a relatively new insight for me,
        > as I previously have lived by: It's more important what comes out of the
        > mouth than in, but it usually comes to one when important.The Essene
        > Gospel of Peace
        > <http://kimgraaemunch.wordpress.com/2008/10/19/the-essene-gospel-of-peac\
        > e/>
        >
        > I am also a generalist, as I don't believe in only one book. When
        > younger I was relatively well versed in the main theses of
        > Anthroposophy, but no expert. I became a good amateur in Astrology, as
        > it was practical knowledge in interaction with other persons, but
        > otherwise I had some knowledge from many sources, like Sufism, Hermes
        > Trismegistus, psychoanalysis, and so forth, building a consistent
        > framework. Science was my preferred area, especially within my field.
        > The Kaballah Tree of Life is a relatively new tool for me, but it's a
        > fantastic chart to understand the spiritual world, both historically and
        > current, but I don't go deep into Kaballah as it's a life study in
        > itself, with not much place for living, and the real study is done
        > through living.
        >
        > By the way, Penrose is an old soul, I believe.
        >
        > Kim
        >


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