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Re: On the Magdalene - Chrestos in the Underworld

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  • Kim
    What Christ went down to was the underworld, and following Steiner, the Gods have never been down there before. So Christ have never been down into the
    Message 1 of 24 , Apr 3, 2010
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      What Christ went down to was the underworld, and following Steiner, the Gods have never been down there before. So Christ have never been down into the underworld before. Jesus Christ are two beings, Chrestos with the Astral body as the highest, and Christus with our Soul body as the lowest, and Chrestos are the one who are left to die and who goes to the underworld (Was ist «Auferstehung»? RS - Dornach/Schweiz am 27. März 1921). This being has it's lower I in the Astral body, and thats why he can say "My God, ...". This also means that he reaches a level deeper than the physical, he reaches down to the Salamanders, the Men of new Jupiter.

      What is then the Underworld? It's the astral world and below.

      Why is the physical world Maya? Because everything is managed from the underworld, by the various elementals existing i the astral world and down.

      About the Astral world, the underworld, GA 93a :
      Now there are also other beings besides minerals, plants, animals and human beings. There are beings who have their consciousness on the physical plane and their body in the astral. Such a being is, as it were, an animal in reverse. Such beings actually exist; they are the elemental beings. In order to make their nature comprehensible let us be clear about what belongs to the physical plane.

      Physical is: Firstly the solid earth, secondly water, thirdly air, fourthly ether (warmth ether, light ether, chemical ether, life ether). Let us keep to the four lower forms of our physical plane and separate the etheric world from them.

      States of consciousness can lie in all four forms of the physical plane while the body of such a being lies in the astral. We must think of the consciousness in the solid Earth, the body in the astral; or a being that has its consciousness in the water and its body in the astral; then such a being with its consciousness in the air and its body in the astral and one with its consciousness in fire and its body in the astral. Present-day man knows but little of such beings; in our time it is only through poetry that they are known. Miners (of minerals) however know such beings very well. A gnome is only visible to someone who can see on the astral plane, but miners frequently possess such an astral vision; they know that gnomes are realities. Thus, on our Earth there exist various forms of consciousness, and what the natural scientist today calls laws of nature are the thoughts of beings who think on the physical plane but have their bodies on the astral plane. When in physics we have to do with laws of nature we can say: these are the thoughts of a being who has its body on the astral plane. The forces of nature are creative beings and natural laws are their thoughts.

      Diagram XVI

      In the Middle Ages the alchemist tried to make use of these spirits. Goethe knew this very well; Faust wished to have fire air; this was to be produced by the salamanders which have their body on the astral plane. Thus we have around us beings who actually have their consciousness in fire, to whom we cause pain when fire is kindled, for by so doing we actually cause a certain alteration in the body of the being in question on the astral plane. When one kindles fire one alters this astral being. In the same way when one brings about alterations in other spheres of the elements and the forces of Nature one alters something in these astral beings. When we do this or that we are continuously peopling the astral plane. If we think these thoughts through clearly, we have the meaning of church ritual: that is, not to make use of any kind of substances on the physical plane, except such as have meaning, whereby meaningful beings arise on the astral plane. When for instance one kindles the smoke of incense one does something which has purpose; one burns a particular substance and creates beings of a particular kind. When one passes a sword through the air in four directions one creates a definite kind of being.

      Kim

      --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:
      >
      > Kim, I am thinking that somehow...I don't know how to express this but when we were born into this world before Christ and we got caught up in the materialistic world would not Christ have to will His way down to the earth as well, to the I of the earth as well, the center, the kore so to speak.
      >  
      > Now if the Christ worked down straight into the boney structure of man and it seems to me that moving further it took these three years to get to the center of the I of the earth...His forty days was coming back up to the earthly world and penetrating it with whath He transformed at the center of the earth. This is how Dante could speak of Him as coming forth at one point....now, it seems to me that it is Jesus that they encounter during the forty days and maybe the Christ at Pentacaust united with Jesus....something had to take place different for the forty days and all to receive the holy fire from above...somehow something was now united from above and below truly. I don't know...something like this. And the whole measure of man was working through the Magdalene and this is why she is there at the beginning with John the Baptist and helped in the baptism of the marriage so to speak of Jesus and Christ. I am thinking that maybe when we speak of the 
      > marriage at cana it has to involve the Magdalene as well, not just the mother as is shared....and I have to imagine the reason Steiner did not speak outwardly on this although he did somesort in The Fifth Gospel, is because it had to do with the underword in a way that he could not just speak lightly on but would have had to reintroduce man to it specifically.
      > If we have to consider what Steiner did with Anthroposophia, allowing her to be heard in the Christmas Conference, we can imagine that he would have, if not interrupted by his poisoning hence illness, began to speak further on this Being and the manner in which she has already too reached down into hell and is now able having been freed to show man to himself.

    • dottie zold
      Kim, and then this is how we would have Elisha and Elijah and their double portion. Paramahansa has it off as well, well actually this wasn t his forte in a
      Message 2 of 24 , Apr 3, 2010
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        Kim, and then this is how we would have Elisha and Elijah and their double portion. Paramahansa has it off as well, well actually this wasn't his forte in a sense as he was mostly on the spirit within man and not their ongoing incarnations in the Judaic lineage...he was sortof like a gnostic one could say...he knew of the Christ and karma etc. but where the personalities would find themselves at that time was not what he was used to seeking....so he had to, and its sort of strange for his lineage, he had to look to the physical versus just the Christ...interesting...anyhow, Paramahnsa calls John the Baptist and Jesus as Elisha and Elijah...but I think he was looking at the Solomon Jesus and....but the Sololmon child united with the nathan soul....
         
        okay where it gets confusing and I've said this before, is where you have the Nathan mary meeting with Elizabeth and the I of John the Baptist jumping. But what of the Zarathustra child uniting with the Nathan soul....that's where I've always had a problem with who is Adam. But if we look at the Zarathustra child as the son of Adam and also the Nathan soul as the sister soul of Adam, you kinda have a step situation in a way....okay at least i am threading a part in a new way....good...so Adam (John the Baptist) and the Nathan child (sister soul) are in some ways the mother of Cain(Solomon)  and Abel (Lazarus)...okay somehow what I guess I am trying to get to is the healing of Cain...the ascent of the Cain line since Obed and the culmination at Golgotha...can not hold this in me.... d

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Sat, 4/3/10, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
        Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] On the Magdalene
        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 8:11 AM



        And Kim I was thinking that it Christ Jesus wasn't speaking to the outer awakeness of James and John he was speaking to the inner blood, the inner I Am, that was unable to stay awake. And to the Magdalene he was not admonishing her outwardly he was speaking of something inwardly that she did not know regarding how the bodies can meet inwardly, not outwardly...it was nothing to do with the feet.
         
        All good things,
        d

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Sat, 4/3/10, dottie zold <dottie_z@...> wrote:

        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>
        Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] On the Magdalene
        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 7:55 AM



        Kim, I am thinking that somehow...I don't know how to express this but when we were born into this world before Christ and we got caught up in the materialistic world would not Christ have to will His way down to the earth as well, to the I of the earth as well, the center, the kore so to speak.
         
        Now if the Christ worked down straight into the boney structure of man and it seems to me that moving further it took these three years to get to the center of the I of the earth...His forty days was coming back up to the earthly world and penetrating it with whath He transformed at the center of the earth. This is how Dante could speak of Him as coming forth at one point....now, it seems to me that it is Jesus that they encounter during the forty days and maybe the Christ at Pentacaust united with Jesus....something had to take place different for the forty days and all to receive the holy fire from above...somehow something was now united from above and below truly. I don't know...something like this. And the whole measure of man was working through the Magdalene and this is why she is there at the beginning with John the Baptist and helped in the baptism of the marriage so to speak of Jesus and Christ. I am thinking that maybe when we speak of the  marriage at cana it has to involve the Magdalene as well, not just the mother as is shared....and I have to imagine the reason Steiner did not speak outwardly on this although he did somesort in The Fifth Gospel, is because it had to do with the underword in a way that he could not just speak lightly on but would have had to reintroduce man to it specifically.
        If we have to consider what Steiner did with Anthroposophia, allowing her to be heard in the Christmas Conference, we can imagine that he would have, if not interrupted by his poisoning hence illness, began to speak further on this Being and the manner in which she has already too reached down into hell and is now able having been freed to show man to himself.
         
        On Elisha. I know we have spoken on this before and have found agreement way early in our friendship and then a not so agreement lately on this....and  it occurs to me to share that I found myself in Kings yesterday and I found myself with Elisha.
         
        What I found myself contemplating was this:
         
        Adam = Elijah = John the Baptist
        Abel = Elisha = Lazarus =
        Cain = Solomon = Mathew Jesus
         
        Now in the story of Kings we have Elisha being told by God to gather up a few people. These few people seem to me to be able to be found in the Apostles of Christ Jesus.

        Now the Magdalene it seems might be able to be found again as the one who is the messenger....in Kings...but I am not sure but what I am sure of is that she was needed for each of the 'miracles' or rather transformations that took place since the Christ came.
         
        Paul. Paul is really really interesting. And so is Sergei. And so is Boehme.  I was thinking back to Isaia actually and well anyway what do you think of the Elisha element? What was your work on this if you can refresh my rememberance or point it to me in your writing already.
         
        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Sat, 4/3/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...> wrote:

        From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...>
        Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] On the Magdalene
        To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 12:15 AM



        Interesting.
        Steiner says that Magdalene symbolizes the astral, and as we have our ego just above the astral, the elementals just below man have their ego seed in the astral.
        What you touch at is what does it really mean that Christ went down into the underworld?
        /Kim

        --- Den fre 2/4/10 skrev dottie zold <dottie_z@...>:

        Fra: dottie zold <dottie_z@...>

         
        Kim! i just got back from church and i was contemdplating the soul of the heavenly worlds and the soul...or rather the I of Christ and the I of the earthly world, meaning physical world.....
         
        the I of ....teh thirteenth is the ego 3+1 = 4 ego. and so this dove, this I of man went down to Jesus and through Jesus to the I of the world. I imagine...well i can't seem to hold it really but somehow the Magdalene represents the I of the earth ....../..... ......... ......... ......... ......oh boy....the dove went straight down to hell, the I of the cosmic world, the ego, that which developed the ego of the heavenly worlds went down to that whicg is at the center of the earth....okay can't do it....i think it and then lose it when i try to express it....d

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Fri, 4/2/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

        From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
        Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] On the Magdalene
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Friday, April 2, 2010, 1:17 PM



        I have no meaning about the two Mary's of Jesus', except maybe that they are on different spiritual level's of the same being. I don't connect them with Magdalene directly, as I see the Mary's representing godly beings of our past, where Magdalene is connected with the feminine mystery of man which will come in not to far a future. When I say past I don't mean that they don't partake in our development, they are just more aloof now.
        Kim
         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
        Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 6:47 PM
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] On the Magdalene

         
        Kim if you do see the Magdalene as the mother of the Maccabean boys where do you see the Mathew Mary? :)

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Fri, 4/2/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

        From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
        Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] On the Magdalene
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Friday, April 2, 2010, 1:57 AM



        What do you mean is the right understanding?
        Dottie: I find there is no understanding of this moment among the Steiner students.
        I see Magdalene as the thirteens, and she is following the other 7+5 through history, fe. as Dinah with The Sons of Jacob, HO HSIEN KU the female part of the Eight Taoist Immortals, but also as the mother of the seven Maccabees (+5 sons of Mattathias), and at the crucial point in history where Solomon meats Hiram Abiff, and she as Balkis, The Queen of Sheba, chooses Hiram, and so forth.
        Kim
        Zodiac with Old Rulers   
        -----Original Message-----
        From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
        Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 8:43 AM
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] On the Magdalene

         
        Okay she is not admonished and in fact we find in Mathew she is then able to hold His feet:
         
        " Mathew 28:
         
        1(A) Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and(B) the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2And behold, there was a great earthquake, for(C) an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3(D) His appearance was like lightning, and(E) his clothing white as snow. 4And for fear of him the guards trembled and(F) became like dead men. 5But the angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6He is not here, for he has risen,(G) as he said. Come, see the place where he[a] lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold,(H) he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. See, I have told you." 8So they departed quickly from the tomb(I) with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9And behold, Jesus(J) met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and(K) took hold of his feet and(L) worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid;(M) go and tell(N) my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me."
         
        John: 20:17


        Jhn 20:17 Jesus 2424 saith 3004 unto her 846, Touch 680 me 3450 not 3361; for 1063 I am 305 0 not yet 3768 ascended 305 to 4314 my 3450 Father 3962: but 1161 go 4198 to 4314 my 3450 brethren 80, and 2532 say 2036 unto them 846, I ascend 305 unto 4314 my 3450 Father 3962, and 2532 your 5216 Father 3962; and 2532 [to] my 3450 God 2316, and 2532 your 5216 God 2316.

        Dottie: He says 'touch me not' not 'do not touch me'. Touch me not has another implication as to His own consciousness of what was taking place at that time.
         
        I find there is no understanding of this moment among the Steiner students. If one does not understand the relationship between the Magdalene and Christ Jesus then one can not understand what truly occurred with not only the wedding in cana but also the raising of lazarus and 'He is Risen'.
         
        So I say it is a good time to reconsider the positions of the relationship between the Magdalene as she is not as lowly as thou should have her.
        And this has to do with Anthroposophia as well as who this was as it seems to me we can take her back to Ruth in this moment.
         
        All good things,
        Dottie
        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



        --- On Thu, 4/1/10, dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com> wrote:

        From: dottie zold <dottie_z@yahoo. com>
        Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] On the Magdalene
        To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Thursday, April 1, 2010, 9:44 PM



        Do we really believe it possible that the Lord would 'admonish' the Magdalene? Not on your life.
         
        Peter Paul Rubens Ecstasy of Mary Magdalene oil painting
         
        This was his most trusted disciple and the one chosen to annoint him for his passage from death to birth also the one with John the Baptist who recieved the Christ at the Jordan.
         
        I imagine it is time to look at this Being now that we are quite a few years into the understanding of Anthroposophia.
         
        All good things,
        Dottie

        "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner












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      • Kim
        Yes: Adam = Elijah = John the Baptist Abel die and don t incarnate, but Seth does. Seth and Cain are part of a story which goes down through the bible. One
        Message 3 of 24 , Apr 3, 2010
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          Yes: Adam = Elijah = John the Baptist

          Abel "die" and don't incarnate, but Seth does.

          Seth and Cain are part of a story which goes down through the bible.

          One of the most interesting stories are the temple legend, where
          Solomon, Hiram Abiff, and Balkis are the main characters. Hiram is Cain,
          so Solomon is Seth.

          This physical temple is "Cain's" apprenticeship and in his next
          incarnation as Elisha he receives the mantle of Elijah as he becomes the
          next Temple-builder. Elijah becomes Buddha in his following incarnation.

          Elisha becomes Jonathan, son of Mattathias, and in a later incarnation,
          Lazarus/John. Judas is also incarnated as a son of Mattathias, the last
          time he is The Lion of Judah.

          Solomon/Seth is the priestly line and he incarnates as Simon Peter,
          where he have problems with his new role, being second to Cain/John.

          Lazarus/John incarnates in a later incarnation as Christian Rosencreutz.


          > Now in the story of Kings we have Elisha being told by God to gather
          up a few people. These few people seem to me to be able to be found in
          the Apostles of Christ Jesus.
          Kim: Yes.

          > Paul. Paul is really really interesting. And so is Sergei. And so is
          Boehme. I was thinking back to Isaia actually and well anyway what do
          you think of the Elisha element? What was your work on this if you can
          refresh my rememberance or point it to me in your writing already.
          Kim: I think Steiner have said that Boehme was the highest esoteric of
          all, which is Christian Rosecreutz. If you read about the Christian
          Rosencreutz incarnation you will see that he had the Lower I of Christ
          as Lower I, the Chrestos who hang on the Cross!

          I think that Christian Rosencreutz and the Bodhisattva is one and the
          same.

          Yes, Paul is really a mystery.

          Kim
        • Kim
          I think that Steiner said that john wasn t sleeping as the others. You sleep when your astral body and etheric body separates, and the problem was that they
          Message 4 of 24 , Apr 3, 2010
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            I think that Steiner said that john wasn't sleeping as the others.

            You sleep when your astral body and etheric body separates, and the
            problem was that they couldn't meditate, connect to Manas, without the
            etheric and astral bodies separating.
            Kim
            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
            <dottie_z@...> wrote:
            >
            > And Kim I was thinking that it Christ Jesus wasn't speaking to the
            outer awakeness of James and John he was speaking to the inner blood,
            the inner I Am, that was unable to stay awake. And to the Magdalene he
            was not admonishing her outwardly he was speaking of something inwardly
            that she did not know regarding how the bodies can meet inwardly, not
            outwardly...it was nothing to do with the feet.
            >
            > All good things,
            > d
            >
            >
            > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
            out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
            >
            >
            >
            > --- On Sat, 4/3/10, dottie zold dottie_z@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: dottie zold dottie_z@...
            > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] On the Magdalene
            > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 7:55 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Kim, I am thinking that somehow...I don't know how to express this but
            when we were born into this world before Christ and we got caught up in
            the materialistic world would not Christ have to will His way down to
            the earth as well, to the I of the earth as well, the center, the kore
            so to speak.
            >
            > Now if the Christ worked down straight into the boney structure of man
            and it seems to me that moving further it took these three years to get
            to the center of the I of the earth...His forty days was coming back up
            to the earthly world and penetrating it with whath He transformed at the
            center of the earth. This is how Dante could speak of Him as coming
            forth at one point....now, it seems to me that it is Jesus that they
            encounter during the forty days and maybe the Christ at Pentacaust
            united with Jesus....something had to take place different for the forty
            days and all to receive the holy fire from above...somehow something was
            now united from above and below truly. I don't know...something like
            this. And the whole measure of man was working through the Magdalene and
            this is why she is there at the beginning with John the Baptist and
            helped in the baptism of the marriage so to speak of Jesus and Christ. I
            am thinking that maybe when we speak of the
            > marriage at cana it has to involve the Magdalene as well, not just
            the mother as is shared....and I have to imagine the reason Steiner did
            not speak outwardly on this although he did somesort in The Fifth
            Gospel, is because it had to do with the underword in a way that he
            could not just speak lightly on but would have had to reintroduce man to
            it specifically.
            > If we have to consider what Steiner did with Anthroposophia, allowing
            her to be heard in the Christmas Conference, we can imagine that he
            would have, if not interrupted by his poisoning hence illness, began to
            speak further on this Being and the manner in which she has already too
            reached down into hell and is now able having been freed to show man to
            himself.
            >
            > On Elisha. I know we have spoken on this before and have found
            agreement way early in our friendship and then a not so agreement lately
            on this....and it occurs to me to share that I found myself in Kings
            yesterday and I found myself with Elisha.
            >
            > What I found myself contemplating was this:
            >
            > Adam = Elijah = John the Baptist
            > Abel = Elisha = Lazarus =
            > Cain = Solomon = Mathew Jesus
            >
            > Now in the story of Kings we have Elisha being told by God to gather
            up a few people. These few people seem to me to be able to be found in
            the Apostles of Christ Jesus.
            >
            > Now the Magdalene it seems might be able to be found again as the one
            who is the messenger....in Kings...but I am not sure but what I am sure
            of is that she was needed for each of the 'miracles' or rather
            transformations that took place since the Christ came.
            >
            > Paul. Paul is really really interesting. And so is Sergei. And so is
            Boehme. I was thinking back to Isaia actually and well anyway what do
            you think of the Elisha element? What was your work on this if you can
            refresh my rememberance or point it to me in your writing already.
            >
            > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
            out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
            >
            >
            >
            > --- On Sat, 4/3/10, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@...
            > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] On the Magdalene
            > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 12:15 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Interesting.
            > Steiner says that Magdalene symbolizes the astral, and as we have our
            ego just above the astral, the elementals just below man have their ego
            seed in the astral.
            > What you touch at is what does it really mean that Christ went down
            into the underworld?
            > /Kim
            >
            > --- Den fre 2/4/10 skrev dottie zold dottie_z@...:
            >
            >
            > Fra: dottie zold dottie_z@...
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Kim! i just got back from church and i was contemdplating the soul of
            the heavenly worlds and the soul...or rather the I of Christ and the I
            of the earthly world, meaning physical world.....
            >
            > the I of ....teh thirteenth is the ego 3+1 = 4 ego. and so this dove,
            this I of man went down to Jesus and through Jesus to the I of the
            world. I imagine...well i can't seem to hold it really but somehow the
            Magdalene represents the I of the earth ....../..... ......... .........
            ......... ......oh boy....the dove went straight down to hell, the I of
            the cosmic world, the ego, that which developed the ego of the heavenly
            worlds went down to that whicg is at the center of the earth....okay
            can't do it....i think it and then lose it when i try to express it....d
            >
            >
            > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
            out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
            >
            >
            >
            > --- On Fri, 4/2/10, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
            > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] On the Magdalene
            > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
            > Date: Friday, April 2, 2010, 1:17 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I have no meaning about the two Mary's of Jesus', except maybe that
            they are on different spiritual level's of the same being. I don't
            connect them with Magdalene directly, as I see the Mary's representing
            godly beings of our past, where Magdalene is connected with the feminine
            mystery of man which will come in not to far a future. When I say past I
            don't mean that they don't partake in our development, they are just
            more aloof now.
            > Kim
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop
            hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
            > Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 6:47 PM
            > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
            > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] On the Magdalene
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Kim if you do see the Magdalene as the mother of the Maccabean boys
            where do you see the Mathew Mary? :)
            >
            >
            > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
            out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
            >
            >
            >
            > --- On Fri, 4/2/10, Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: Kim Graae Munch kimgm@yahoo. co.uk>
            > Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] On the Magdalene
            > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
            > Date: Friday, April 2, 2010, 1:57 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > What do you mean is the right understanding?
            >
            > Dottie: I find there is no understanding of this moment among the
            Steiner students.
            > I see Magdalene as the thirteens, and she is following the other 7+5
            through history, fe. as Dinah with The Sons of Jacob, HO HSIEN KU the
            female part of the Eight Taoist Immortals, but also as the mother of the
            seven Maccabees (+5 sons of Mattathias), and at the crucial point in
            history where Solomon meats Hiram Abiff, and she as Balkis, The Queen of
            Sheba, chooses Hiram, and so forth.
            > Kim
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anthroposop
            hy_tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of dottie zold
            > Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 8:43 AM
            > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
            > Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] On the Magdalene
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Okay she is not admonished and in fact we find in Mathew she is then
            able to hold His feet:
            >
            > " Mathew 28:
            >
            > 1(A) Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the
            week, Mary Magdalene and(B) the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2And
            behold, there was a great earthquake, for(C) an angel of the Lord
            descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it.
            3(D) His appearance was like lightning, and(E) his clothing white as
            snow. 4And for fear of him the guards trembled and(F) became like dead
            men. 5But the angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know
            that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6He is not here, for he has
            risen,(G) as he said. Come, see the place where he[a] lay. 7Then go
            quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and
            behold,(H) he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him.
            See, I have told you." 8So they departed quickly from the tomb(I) with
            fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9And behold, Jesus(J)
            met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and(K) took hold
            > of his feet and(L) worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, "Do not
            be afraid;(M) go and tell(N) my brothers to go to Galilee, and there
            they will see me."
            >
            > John: 20:17
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Jhn 20:17
            >
            > Jesus 2424 saith 3004 unto her 846, Touch 680 me 3450 not 3361; for
            1063 I am 305 0 not yet 3768 ascended 305 to 4314 my 3450 Father 3962:
            but 1161 go 4198 to 4314 my 3450 brethren 80, and 2532 say 2036 unto
            them 846, I ascend 305 unto 4314 my 3450 Father 3962, and 2532 your 5216
            Father 3962; and 2532 [to] my 3450 God 2316, and 2532 your 5216 God
            2316.
            >
            > Dottie: He says 'touch me not' not 'do not touch me'. Touch me not has
            another implication as to His own consciousness of what was taking place
            at that time.
            >
            > I find there is no understanding of this moment among the Steiner
            students. If one does not understand the relationship between the
            Magdalene and Christ Jesus then one can not understand what truly
            occurred with not only the wedding in cana but also the raising of
            lazarus and 'He is Risen'.
            >
            > So I say it is a good time to reconsider the positions of the
            relationship between the Magdalene as she is not as lowly as thou should
            have her.
            > And this has to do with Anthroposophia as well as who this was as it
            seems to me we can take her back to Ruth in this moment.
            >
            > All good things,
            > Dottie
            >
            > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
            out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
            >
            >
            >
            > --- On Thu, 4/1/10, dottie zold dottie_z@yahoo. com> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: dottie zold dottie_z@yahoo. com>
            > Subject: [anthroposophy_ tomorrow] On the Magdalene
            > To: anthroposophy_ tomorrow@ yahoogroups. com
            > Date: Thursday, April 1, 2010, 9:44 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Do we really believe it possible that the Lord would 'admonish' the
            Magdalene? Not on your life.
            >
            >
            >
            > This was his most trusted disciple and the one chosen to annoint him
            for his passage from death to birth also the one with John the Baptist
            who recieved the Christ at the Jordan.
            >
            > I imagine it is time to look at this Being now that we are quite a few
            years into the understanding of Anthroposophia.
            >
            > All good things,
            > Dottie
            >
            >
            > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
            out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Bruger du Yahoo!?
            > Er du træt af spam? Yahoo!Mail har den bedste spambeskyttelse, der
            findes
            > http://dk.mail.yahoo.com
            >
          • dottie zold
            Kim, why not Elisha and Abel? In Kings when Elijah finds him the town he comes from is Abel .... something...oh yes I recall you thinking that Abel did not
            Message 5 of 24 , Apr 3, 2010
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              Kim, why not Elisha and Abel? In Kings when Elijah finds him the town he comes from is Abel .... something...oh yes I recall you thinking that Abel did not incarnate again...and it seems to me if you are staying withi this how is this not the sister soul of Adam...although I am not in line with you...but wouldn't it have to be the sister soul of Adam if this being did not rightfully incarnate physically yet was here about?
               
              okay,
               

              1 Kings 19:16 (Complete Jewish Bible)

              16 Also anoint Yehu the son of Nimshi to be king over Isra'el, and anoint Elisha the son of Shafat of Avel-M'cholah to be prophet after you.
               
              Dottie: this Avel is Abel.
               


               
              "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



              --- On Sat, 4/3/10, Kim <kimgm@...> wrote:

              From: Kim <kimgm@...>
              Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: On the Magdalene
              To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 12:10 PM

              Yes:  Adam = Elijah = John the Baptist

              Abel "die" and don't incarnate, but Seth does.

              Seth and Cain are part of a story which goes down through the bible.

              One of the most interesting stories are the temple legend, where
              Solomon, Hiram Abiff, and Balkis are the main characters. Hiram is Cain,
              so Solomon is Seth.

              This physical temple is "Cain's" apprenticeship and in his next
              incarnation as Elisha he receives the mantle of Elijah as he becomes the
              next Temple-builder. Elijah becomes Buddha in his following incarnation.

              Elisha becomes Jonathan, son of Mattathias, and in a later incarnation,
              Lazarus/John. Judas is also incarnated as a son of Mattathias, the last
              time he is The Lion of Judah.

              Solomon/Seth is the priestly line and he incarnates as Simon Peter,
              where he have problems with his new role, being second to Cain/John.

              Lazarus/John incarnates in a later incarnation as Christian Rosencreutz.


              > Now in the story of Kings we have Elisha being told by God to gather
              up a few people. These few people seem to me to be able to be found in
              the Apostles of Christ Jesus.
              Kim: Yes.

              > Paul. Paul is really really interesting. And so is Sergei. And so is
              Boehme.  I was thinking back to Isaia actually and well anyway what do
              you think of the Elisha element? What was your work on this if you can
              refresh my rememberance or point it to me in your writing already.
              Kim: I think Steiner have said that Boehme was the highest esoteric of
              all, which is Christian Rosecreutz. If you read about the Christian
              Rosencreutz incarnation you will see that he had the Lower I of Christ
              as Lower I, the Chrestos who hang on the Cross!

              I think that Christian Rosencreutz and the Bodhisattva is one and the
              same.

              Yes, Paul is really a mystery.

              Kim




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            • Kim
              God is One, God is a Trinity, but on Earth they are seen as a duality. That is Cain and Seth, where Abel stays aloof, until the birth of Christ. Hiram is Cain.
              Message 6 of 24 , Apr 3, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                God is One, God is a Trinity, but on Earth they are seen as a duality.
                That is Cain and Seth, where Abel stays aloof, until the birth of
                Christ.

                Hiram is Cain. Elisha is CR and Hiram is CR. Elisha is Hiram.

                Solomon and Seth were the priestly line. Cain is not!

                Kim

                --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
                <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                >
                > Kim, why not Elisha and Abel? In Kings when Elijah finds him the town
                he comes from is Abel .... something...oh yes I recall you thinking that
                Abel did not incarnate again...and it seems to me if you are staying
                withi this how is this not the sister soul of Adam...although I am not
                in line with you...but wouldn't it have to be the sister soul of Adam if
                this being did not rightfully incarnate physically yet was here about?
                >
                > okay,
                >
                > 1 Kings 19:16 (Complete Jewish Bible)
                >
                > var strongsSearchUrl = '';
                > $(document).ready(MetaTextBarInit);
                >
                >
                > 16 Also anoint Yehu the son of Nimshi to be king over Isra'el, and
                anoint Elisha the son of Shafat of Avel-M'cholah to be prophet after
                you.
                > Read in contextRead 1 Kings 19View in parallelCompare Translations
                >
                > Dottie: this Avel is Abel.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
                out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- On Sat, 4/3/10, Kim kimgm@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: Kim kimgm@...
                > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: On the Magdalene
                > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 12:10 PM
                >
                >
                > Yes: Adam = Elijah = John the Baptist
                >
                > Abel "die" and don't incarnate, but Seth does.
                >
                > Seth and Cain are part of a story which goes down through the bible.
                >
                > One of the most interesting stories are the temple legend, where
                > Solomon, Hiram Abiff, and Balkis are the main characters. Hiram is
                Cain,
                > so Solomon is Seth.
                >
                > This physical temple is "Cain's" apprenticeship and in his next
                > incarnation as Elisha he receives the mantle of Elijah as he becomes
                the
                > next Temple-builder. Elijah becomes Buddha in his following
                incarnation.
                >
                > Elisha becomes Jonathan, son of Mattathias, and in a later
                incarnation,
                > Lazarus/John. Judas is also incarnated as a son of Mattathias, the
                last
                > time he is The Lion of Judah.
                >
                > Solomon/Seth is the priestly line and he incarnates as Simon Peter,
                > where he have problems with his new role, being second to Cain/John.
                >
                > Lazarus/John incarnates in a later incarnation as Christian
                Rosencreutz.
                >
                >
                > > Now in the story of Kings we have Elisha being told by God to gather
                > up a few people. These few people seem to me to be able to be found in
                > the Apostles of Christ Jesus.
                > Kim: Yes.
                >
                > > Paul. Paul is really really interesting. And so is Sergei. And so is
                > Boehme. I was thinking back to Isaia actually and well anyway what do
                > you think of the Elisha element? What was your work on this if you can
                > refresh my rememberance or point it to me in your writing already.
                > Kim: I think Steiner have said that Boehme was the highest esoteric of
                > all, which is Christian Rosecreutz. If you read about the Christian
                > Rosencreutz incarnation you will see that he had the Lower I of Christ
                > as Lower I, the Chrestos who hang on the Cross!
                >
                > I think that Christian Rosencreutz and the Bodhisattva is one and the
                > same.
                >
                > Yes, Paul is really a mystery.
                >
                > Kim
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
              • dottie zold
                I shall sit with Abel and the Rabbis for a little bit to figure this out.   Thanks Kim, d Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
                Message 7 of 24 , Apr 3, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  I shall sit with Abel and the Rabbis for a little bit to figure this out.
                   
                  Thanks Kim,
                  d

                  "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                  --- On Sat, 4/3/10, Kim <kimgm@...> wrote:

                  From: Kim <kimgm@...>
                  Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: On the Magdalene
                  To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 2:02 PM

                  God is One, God is a Trinity, but on Earth they are seen as a duality.
                  That is Cain and Seth, where Abel stays aloof, until the birth of
                  Christ.

                  Hiram is Cain. Elisha is CR and Hiram is CR. Elisha is Hiram.

                  Solomon and Seth were the priestly line. Cain is not!

                  Kim

                  --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
                  <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Kim, why not Elisha and Abel? In Kings when Elijah finds him the town
                  he comes from is Abel .... something...oh yes I recall you thinking that
                  Abel did not incarnate again...and it seems to me if you are staying
                  withi this how is this not the sister soul of Adam...although I am not
                  in line with you...but wouldn't it have to be the sister soul of Adam if
                  this being did not rightfully incarnate physically yet was here about?
                  >
                  > okay,
                  >
                  > 1 Kings 19:16 (Complete Jewish Bible)
                  >
                  >  var strongsSearchUrl = '';
                  >  $(document).ready(MetaTextBarInit);
                  >
                  >
                  > 16 Also anoint Yehu the son of Nimshi to be king over Isra'el, and
                  anoint Elisha the son of Shafat of Avel-M'cholah to be prophet after
                  you.
                  > Read in contextRead 1 Kings 19View in parallelCompare Translations
                  >
                  > Dottie: this Avel is Abel.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
                  out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- On Sat, 4/3/10, Kim kimgm@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Kim kimgm@...
                  > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: On the Magdalene
                  > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 12:10 PM
                  >
                  >
                  > Yes:  Adam = Elijah = John the Baptist
                  >
                  > Abel "die" and don't incarnate, but Seth does.
                  >
                  > Seth and Cain are part of a story which goes down through the bible.
                  >
                  > One of the most interesting stories are the temple legend, where
                  > Solomon, Hiram Abiff, and Balkis are the main characters. Hiram is
                  Cain,
                  > so Solomon is Seth.
                  >
                  > This physical temple is "Cain's" apprenticeship and in his next
                  > incarnation as Elisha he receives the mantle of Elijah as he becomes
                  the
                  > next Temple-builder. Elijah becomes Buddha in his following
                  incarnation.
                  >
                  > Elisha becomes Jonathan, son of Mattathias, and in a later
                  incarnation,
                  > Lazarus/John. Judas is also incarnated as a son of Mattathias, the
                  last
                  > time he is The Lion of Judah.
                  >
                  > Solomon/Seth is the priestly line and he incarnates as Simon Peter,
                  > where he have problems with his new role, being second to Cain/John.
                  >
                  > Lazarus/John incarnates in a later incarnation as Christian
                  Rosencreutz.
                  >
                  >
                  > > Now in the story of Kings we have Elisha being told by God to gather
                  > up a few people. These few people seem to me to be able to be found in
                  > the Apostles of Christ Jesus.
                  > Kim: Yes.
                  >
                  > > Paul. Paul is really really interesting. And so is Sergei. And so is
                  > Boehme.  I was thinking back to Isaia actually and well anyway what do
                  > you think of the Elisha element? What was your work on this if you can
                  > refresh my rememberance or point it to me in your writing already.
                  > Kim: I think Steiner have said that Boehme was the highest esoteric of
                  > all, which is Christian Rosecreutz. If you read about the Christian
                  > Rosencreutz incarnation you will see that he had the Lower I of Christ
                  > as Lower I, the Chrestos who hang on the Cross!
                  >
                  > I think that Christian Rosencreutz and the Bodhisattva is one and the
                  > same.
                  >
                  > Yes, Paul is really a mystery.
                  >
                  > Kim
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >




                  ------------------------------------

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                • dottie zold
                  Friends, I am thinking what the Magdalene encountered was not an outer holding rather an inner holding of Christ before her.   My experience is that He is
                  Message 8 of 24 , Apr 7, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Friends, I am thinking what the Magdalene encountered was not an 'outer holding' rather an inner holding of Christ before her.
                     
                    My experience is that He is of the world, and it was she who at first thought of Him as in old even though she could not ever recognize that figure before her in the state He showed himself. I do not believe it was the phantom body resurrection body she saw....which is something similar to what was seen at the transfiguration....no it was something more than that and the words were more like 'do not hold onto me' not a physical meaning rather a spiritual one, a worldly one....the words that come to mind that might be a similar understanding comes with the idea of 'you  must lose something to gain it' 'you must let it go before you attain it'.....and He was like a continuing growing Light that could not be contained in the physical thought form....and so this Light had to continue to grow further and she was of her mind of him as in old not yet recognizing the Light before her....it was not an admonishment rather a teaching of how to help her to grow with Him in His own growth.
                     
                    Very very misunderstood when we seek only the physical understanding.
                     
                    All good things,
                    Dottie


                    "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                    --- On Sat, 4/3/10, Kim <kimgm@...> wrote:

                    From: Kim <kimgm@...>
                    Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: On the Magdalene
                    To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 2:02 PM

                    God is One, God is a Trinity, but on Earth they are seen as a duality.
                    That is Cain and Seth, where Abel stays aloof, until the birth of
                    Christ.

                    Hiram is Cain. Elisha is CR and Hiram is CR. Elisha is Hiram.

                    Solomon and Seth were the priestly line. Cain is not!

                    Kim

                    --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold
                    <dottie_z@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Kim, why not Elisha and Abel? In Kings when Elijah finds him the town
                    he comes from is Abel .... something...oh yes I recall you thinking that
                    Abel did not incarnate again...and it seems to me if you are staying
                    withi this how is this not the sister soul of Adam...although I am not
                    in line with you...but wouldn't it have to be the sister soul of Adam if
                    this being did not rightfully incarnate physically yet was here about?
                    >
                    > okay,
                    >
                    > 1 Kings 19:16 (Complete Jewish Bible)
                    >
                    >  var strongsSearchUrl = '';
                    >  $(document).ready(MetaTextBarInit);
                    >
                    >
                    > 16 Also anoint Yehu the son of Nimshi to be king over Isra'el, and
                    anoint Elisha the son of Shafat of Avel-M'cholah to be prophet after
                    you.
                    > Read in contextRead 1 Kings 19View in parallelCompare Translations
                    >
                    > Dottie: this Avel is Abel.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work
                    out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- On Sat, 4/3/10, Kim kimgm@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > From: Kim kimgm@...
                    > Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: On the Magdalene
                    > To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 12:10 PM
                    >
                    >
                    > Yes:  Adam = Elijah = John the Baptist
                    >
                    > Abel "die" and don't incarnate, but Seth does.
                    >
                    > Seth and Cain are part of a story which goes down through the bible.
                    >
                    > One of the most interesting stories are the temple legend, where
                    > Solomon, Hiram Abiff, and Balkis are the main characters. Hiram is
                    Cain,
                    > so Solomon is Seth.
                    >
                    > This physical temple is "Cain's" apprenticeship and in his next
                    > incarnation as Elisha he receives the mantle of Elijah as he becomes
                    the
                    > next Temple-builder. Elijah becomes Buddha in his following
                    incarnation.
                    >
                    > Elisha becomes Jonathan, son of Mattathias, and in a later
                    incarnation,
                    > Lazarus/John. Judas is also incarnated as a son of Mattathias, the
                    last
                    > time he is The Lion of Judah.
                    >
                    > Solomon/Seth is the priestly line and he incarnates as Simon Peter,
                    > where he have problems with his new role, being second to Cain/John.
                    >
                    > Lazarus/John incarnates in a later incarnation as Christian
                    Rosencreutz.
                    >
                    >
                    > > Now in the story of Kings we have Elisha being told by God to gather
                    > up a few people. These few people seem to me to be able to be found in
                    > the Apostles of Christ Jesus.
                    > Kim: Yes.
                    >
                    > > Paul. Paul is really really interesting. And so is Sergei. And so is
                    > Boehme.  I was thinking back to Isaia actually and well anyway what do
                    > you think of the Elisha element? What was your work on this if you can
                    > refresh my rememberance or point it to me in your writing already.
                    > Kim: I think Steiner have said that Boehme was the highest esoteric of
                    > all, which is Christian Rosecreutz. If you read about the Christian
                    > Rosencreutz incarnation you will see that he had the Lower I of Christ
                    > as Lower I, the Chrestos who hang on the Cross!
                    >
                    > I think that Christian Rosencreutz and the Bodhisattva is one and the
                    > same.
                    >
                    > Yes, Paul is really a mystery.
                    >
                    > Kim
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >




                    ------------------------------------

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