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RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Body of Christ

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  • Kim Munch Michelsen
    Hello Rick My main point is that the only difference between man and animal is that man has an ego and animals don t. Both man and animal groups has a group
    Message 1 of 85 , Dec 1, 2003
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      Hello Rick
       
      My main point is that the only difference between man and animal is that man has an ego and animals don't.
       
      Both man and animal groups has a group ego.
       
      And if man has common goup egoes, then there should be nothing illogical that an animal can develop whats necessary to aquire an ego.
       
      RS: Just as the human being has an individual ego, so in every astral body there lives something of a group-ego; this animal-ego lives in the human astral body and the human being does not become independent of this animal-ego until he develops astral sight and becomes a companion of astral beings, when the group-souls of the animals confront him on the astral plane as individual animals confront him here.  

      (Theosophy of the Rosicrucian II THE NINEFOLD CONSTITUTION OF MAN
       
      The soul groups of man is: Lion, Eagle, Bull, Man. They are described in connection with the start of atlantis and in connection with the Apocalypse of John. In the Apocalypse it is written how man regresses to the animal kingdom when he don't develop his ego.
       
      Futhermore, the group-egoes are teachers from the previous cycle which has stopped their evolution to help the last with the rest of their evolution.
       
      Kim

       
      Kim,
       
      I'm not sure if I have fully grasped your point but I would point out that group souls are Beings already well advanced from humans. 
       
      Steiner had mentioned that there are many group souls for animals and few group soul Beings for the plant world. I can't answer for the mineral realm though it has it group-soul Beings also. They may be even less in number than the number of plant group-soul Beings.
       
      He went on the say that the group-soul Beings for animals are the Mights who are active as the group-soul of a species on the astral realm. It is in the astral realm that animals have their Ego as a group; A Might or group of Mights act as the Ego for any one species. The plants have their Egohood in lower devachan as the Spirits of Wisdom are the group-Ego Beings for the plant realm. The mineral has its Egohood in upper devachan. The Spirits of Will are the Group-Ego Beings for the mineral realm.
       
      rick distasi
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 3:58 PM
      Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Body of Christ

      Hello Daniel
       
      It took me a little while to understand that our difference is that you see the group ego, for the animal species as like man where I see the single animal as a contender for manhood.
       
      It simplifies things considerably (it is allways better to understand each other:-).
       
      The difference between man and animal is that man has his ego with him in the mineral world, and animals don't.
       
      Both man (4 groups) and each animal species has a group ego.
       
      RS: Just as the human being has an individual ego, so in every astral body there lives something of a group-ego; this animal-ego lives in the human astral body and the human being does not become independent of this animal-ego until he develops astral sight and becomes a companion of astral beings, when the group-souls of the animals confront him on the astral plane as individual animals confront him here.  

      (Theosophy of the Rosicrucian II THE NINEFOLD CONSTITUTION OF MAN
       
      The soul groups of man is: Lion, Eagle, Bull, Man. They are described in connection with the start of atlantis and in connection with the Apocalypse of John.
       
       
      Concerning your example with the dog:
       
      When man takes a dog to him, he takes the role of the dogs group ego. The dog looses many of the characteristics of his wild cousins, and take form of his human owner.
       
      There has been many scientific eexperiments showing that domesticated animals where not so intelligent as their wild cousins. Someone then got the idea to have the dog's owner beside the dog, then everything changed, the dog was substantially better than its wild cousins.
       
      I hope this helps you,
       
      Kim
      Kim,
      Allow me to respond to your "What if". To me, there is an essential difference between "an animal", and "animals".  
       
      A human being is a fourfold being of ego, astral body, etheric body and physical body. There is a high degree of coincidence in the location of these bodies in an adult. From a given perspective, they all roughly in the same physical space, extruding only slightly. For one ego, there is one astral body, one etheric body and one physical body, at any one point in time, and all are very near each other.  
       
      With the animals there is a one to many relationship between ego and physical bodies.  
       
      As a human has ten fingers, which all give sensory information to his astral, to be used by the ego, the group soul of an animal species has many members of the species, the experiences of these members, as an aggregate whole, are useful to the development of that group-soul. Animal group-souls are evolving, are our brothers and sisters who have taken a special task to enable our own evolution. They deserve our respect and care, as well as our gratitude.  
       
      And they have an evolution ahead of them that is intrinsically related to our own. The only difference, and thus the only point of contention, is what you or I see in an individual representative of any given animal species, for a concrete example, my brother's dog Oso. In Oso I experience "dogness" and sense a portal to the essence of dogness, the being which is the formative force behind all dogs. This being, I sense, is my equal, on another path. Oso is one part of him, a particular manifestation of dogness. When Oso dies, a part of dogness will have passed from the manifest to the unmanifest, from the physical to ths spiritual. This, however, is only a part of dogness, not an individual being who will experience an individual path from eternity to eternity, from the begenning of the world to it's end. Thus, Oso is not an ego-endowed creature, he is part of one.  
       
      This is my understanding of Steiner's exposition of the nature of the animal kingdom. I should point out that changing from your view to mine changes nothing at all about how an animal, or animals in general, should be treated.
       
      I hope this is helpful to you,
       
      Daniel Hindes
       


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    • Richard Distasi
      Tarjei, I wish I could locate the quote from Steiner in which he said that because of the ahrimanic impulses that weave through human souls today that the time
      Message 85 of 85 , Dec 16, 2003
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        Tarjei,
         
        I wish I could locate the quote from Steiner in which he said that because of the ahrimanic impulses that weave through human souls today that the time spent between incarnations is much shorter now. It may be from, "The Ahrimanic Deception" lecture. Not only are initiates returning sooner and I believe that because of their advanced state they were always able to do so but also everyone has a stronger and more developed Ego than what was the case centuries and millennia ago. The need to spend centuries in the spiritual world in times past was necessary because the Ego was much weaker than it is now for most people. Also the time spent in the spiritual world was often in a condition in which it was asleep. The bible has several references to the dead in which it refers to the dead as those who are in sleep. And these books were written during their times which were two thousand years ago and more. The Ego would return to the earth when either physical conditions changed dramatically or in the post Atlantean Period when the cultural change would be a factor. The world is culturally changing more rapidly now than ever before. Look back to the early years of the 20th. century and now to the present. It is almost two different worlds. To be present at the beginning of the 20th. century and not reincarnate again until centuries into the future would be a great loss for the human soul/Ego. You can't gain in the spiritual world what can only be gained here on earth.
         
        I don't feel that the dynamics of reincarnation are stagnate but rather they are ever in flux and flow with the dynamics of human evolution. Spending centuries in the spiritual world between incarnations is a thing of the past. Steiner may point out that the human Ego follows generations of people here on earth before it reincarnates. But let's be realistic in what we see about us in the world today. Since W.W.II the world has experienced a tremendous population explosion and I simply cannot accept that we all now spend centuries following a bloodline in which we then incarnate. This may still hold true for those who have a very special role to play in human evolution and that they need to incarnate into very special conditions but for the most part I think we incarnate when we are ready and we take on an incarnation that is closest to what would fit our destiny. I don't think that it is as precise and exact as many occultists espouse though this would be the ideal rather than the actual reality anymore.
         
        rick distasi
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 4:40 AM
        Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Reincarnations (Body of Christ)

        At 15:35 01.12.2003, Rick wrote:

        >Tarjei wrote:
        >
        >"Are you saying that a shorter time than 'centuries' - i.e. the equivalent
        >of time elapsed between birth and death - is the time now spent in the
        >spiritual world by normal people like you and me?"
        >
        >Yes, that's what I am trying to say. Didn't Steiner mention that the souls
        >that were first involved in the early years of the Anthroposophical
        >Movement would be reincarnating again in the second half of the 20th.
        >century.? I thought that I had read that somewhere.

        "Those who were to work towards a real development of Christianity - souls
        not at the moment incarnated on the earth, and also other spiritual beings
        - were gathered in great numbers around Michael, from the fourteenth to the
        sixteenth century, as though in a great, supersensible school in which
        those souls were being prepared who were to appear on earth at the
        beginning of the twentieth century during Michael's regency. When we look
        at what was being prepared there we find that it was the anthroposophical
        world view, which wants to work for this evolution.

        "From what the ancient Mystery wisdom saw, and through the prophetic sight
        of future Mystery wisdom, we gather that human beings who take in what we
        call the inner Christianity, the spiritualized Christianity, those who look
        to the Genius of the Sun with regard to Christ: these indivivuals will
        experience an acceleration of their evolution and reappear on the earth
        again at the end of the twentieth century."

        "The Book of Revelation and the Work of the Priest" (GA 346) lecture 8,
        Dornach 12 Sept 1924.

        It seems to me that we're still talking minimum 300 years between
        incarnations here. Exceptions to the rule are avatars and initiates, plus
        those on the opposite scale who are savages of sorts.

        Tarjei
        http://uncletaz.com/




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