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Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Real, True *I* or Ego

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  • Juan Revilla
    ... extracting from this quote I would like to summarize and paraphrase Steiner it as follows: To find or experience Christ one does not need to be Christian,
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 2 10:23 AM
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      >... the relevant quote (Zürich, October 16th, 1918, GA 182):...

      extracting from this quote I would like to summarize and paraphrase Steiner it as follows:

      To find or experience Christ one does not need to be Christian, or believe in anything in particular, one does not need to develop organs of spiritual perception, one does not need to think in terms of karma and reincarnation... what is needed is a honest look into our own powerlessness, ineffectiveness, incompleteness, and sickness; a look into our darkest moments, our feelings of hopeslessness and death coming from our physical body and our personality.

      Then Steiner says: "when this has been done with sufficient intensity... there comes the sudden reversal, the other experience..."

      Before this point, the path to Christ is that of the personality and of death, an intense personal experience of desolation and hopelessness, our own futility and death. And then, having touched bottom amidst this darkness, something happens, something "comes", we see the light thanks to which we can raise from this death, a light without which we would not be able to live. This light within ourselves is the realization of the Spirit in us, the healing forces and everlasting strength that we receive as gift.

      This gift of light is the incorruptible "I" thanks to which we say "This light is myself in my own reality", or "In spite of all this darkness I am".

      We still experience the futility of our existence, we still live in the darkness, we still have our karma, but there is also something in us that rises over it so we never, ever again feel helpless or "solitary". It is at this point that we have found Christ, or in Steiner's own words:

      "the benediction of actual relationship with Christ Jesus is vouchsafed to us" (ref. above)

      -----------------

      This is what Steiner says here and in other places as well. This is unadulterated Christianity, which I learned to understand to great extent thanks to him.

      My comment here is: at this point "karma" dissolves away as a concept and is replaced by my relationship to "Life". This relationship to Life contains karma in a spiritualized, transformed way, it is a "different paradigm", an experience of the consciousness soul, a different way of relating to karms out of of something so powerfull spiritually that the concept of karma becomes irrelevant and unecessary, it has been left behind.

      Juan
    • Kim Graae Munch
      Beautiful collection, another word for this state is Depression , where everything has been done on this Earth, and nothing earthly is worth doing any longer.
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 2 12:13 PM
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        Beautiful collection, another word for this state is "Depression", where everything has been done on this Earth, and nothing earthly is worth doing any longer.
        Kim

        --- Den tirs 2/3/10 skrev Juan Revilla <hylonome@...>:

        Fra: Juan Revilla <hylonome@...>
        Emne: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Real, True *I* or Ego
        Til: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
        Dato: tirsdag 2. marts 2010 19.23

         


        >... the relevant quote (Zürich, October 16th, 1918, GA 182):...

        extracting from this quote I would like to summarize and paraphrase Steiner it as follows:

        To find or experience Christ one does not need to be Christian, or believe in anything in particular, one does not need to develop organs of spiritual perception, one does not need to think in terms of karma and reincarnation. .. what is needed is a honest look into our own powerlessness, ineffectiveness, incompleteness, and sickness; a look into our darkest moments, our feelings of hopeslessness and death coming from our physical body and our personality.

        Then Steiner says: "when this has been done with sufficient intensity... there comes the sudden reversal, the other experience.. ."

        Before this point, the path to Christ is that of the personality and of death, an intense personal experience of desolation and hopelessness, our own futility and death. And then, having touched bottom amidst this darkness, something happens, something "comes", we see the light thanks to which we can raise from this death, a light without which we would not be able to live. This light within ourselves is the realization of the Spirit in us, the healing forces and everlasting strength that we receive as gift.

        This gift of light is the incorruptible "I" thanks to which we say "This light is myself in my own reality", or "In spite of all this darkness I am".

        We still experience the futility of our existence, we still live in the darkness, we still have our karma, but there is also something in us that rises over it so we never, ever again feel helpless or "solitary". It is at this point that we have found Christ, or in Steiner's own words:

        "the benediction of actual relationship with Christ Jesus is vouchsafed to us" (ref. above)

        ------------ -----

        This is what Steiner says here and in other places as well. This is unadulterated Christianity, which I learned to understand to great extent thanks to him.

        My comment here is: at this point "karma" dissolves away as a concept and is replaced by my relationship to "Life". This relationship to Life contains karma in a spiritualized, transformed way, it is a "different paradigm", an experience of the consciousness soul, a different way of relating to karms out of of something so powerfull spiritually that the concept of karma becomes irrelevant and unecessary, it has been left behind.

        Juan


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      • Juan Revilla
        ... Good and simple answer. In another post you expressed that karma is not so interesting to you, while reincarnation is. This is interesting because it is
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 3 3:36 AM
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          K1: The knowledge about reincarnation and karma is necessary to see the spiritual world as logic and just.
          J1: This a simple but clear answer at the level of the rational soul. What happens when we raise our understanding of karma and reincarnation to the consciousness soul?

          K2: Knowledge don't change the soul, but it can change the way you live, and that can change your soul (all three:).

          Good and simple answer.

          In another post you expressed that karma is not so interesting to you, while reincarnation is. This is interesting because it is like "separating" the two in terms of what they mean to us or of how one experiences them in one's soul life, or in other words, it implies (please correct me if I am wrong) that it is possible to experience one without the other.

          Whether this is what you had in mind or not when you wrote it, it is an important point that goes directly to what I'm saying: that when one comes to the experience of karma --as opposed to repeating some dogma-- one establishes a relationship with it that is a result of this transformation or "change" in the consciousness soul you mention above. This "relationship" is then no longer a concept but "life", and the concept begins to be left behind because there is something more powerful and more spiritual -- and far more important: "Life". Instead of relating to "karma" as a concept, we are now relating to Life, and this includes karma but a different, more spiritualized way.

          Juan
        • Kim
          Reincarnation makes you understand that you are a spiritual being, part of cosmos, and not just a physical entity, where karma makes you understand that
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 3 5:29 AM
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            Reincarnation makes you understand that you are a spiritual being, part
            of cosmos, and not just a physical entity, where karma makes you
            understand that "action has consequences", and of these two I think that
            reincarnation has the most profound influence of our thinking, where
            karma really only affirms our intuition.
            For the everyday life the knowledge about karma makes life just, as you
            know that the seemingly unjust incidences of fate are karmic responses
            of your own actions and it makes it easier to accept them and easier to
            handle them, and it makes it possible to handle karmic causes, from the
            current life, consciously within this life.
            If you lie without consciously being aware of it, it becomes part of
            your astral body as karma, but if you are aware it becomes part of your
            current karma and you can handle the karma in the current life, and that
            is the reason, at end of the day, to think about the happenings of the
            day.
            Kim

            --- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, Juan Revilla
            <hylonome@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > >K1: The knowledge about reincarnation and karma is necessary to see
            the spiritual world as logic and just.
            > >J1: This a simple but clear answer at the level of the rational soul.
            What happens when we raise our understanding of karma and reincarnation
            to the consciousness soul?
            > >
            > >K2: Knowledge don't change the soul, but it can change the way you
            live, and that can change your soul (all three:).
            >
            > Good and simple answer.
            >
            > In another post you expressed that karma is not so interesting to you,
            while reincarnation is. This is interesting because it is like
            "separating" the two in terms of what they mean to us or of how one
            experiences them in one's soul life, or in other words, it implies
            (please correct me if I am wrong) that it is possible to experience one
            without the other.
            >
            > Whether this is what you had in mind or not when you wrote it, it is
            an important point that goes directly to what I'm saying: that when one
            comes to the experience of karma --as opposed to repeating some dogma--
            one establishes a relationship with it that is a result of this
            transformation or "change" in the consciousness soul you mention above.
            This "relationship" is then no longer a concept but "life", and the
            concept begins to be left behind because there is something more
            powerful and more spiritual -- and far more important: "Life". Instead
            of relating to "karma" as a concept, we are now relating to Life, and
            this includes karma but a different, more spiritualized way.
            >
            > Juan
            >
          • Juan Revilla
            ... J: I agree with you about reincarnation. Karma as a principle or a law is in most cases only rationalization, i.e., we can rationalize the same thing
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 3 7:57 AM
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              K:Reincarnation makes you understand that you are a spiritual being, part of cosmos, and not just a physical entity, where karma makes you understand that "action has consequences", and of these two I think that reincarnation has the most profound influence of our thinking, where karma really only affirms our intuition.

              J: I agree with you about reincarnation. Karma as a principle or a "law" is in most cases only rationalization, i.e., we can rationalize the same thing without using the concept of karma (more below). With reincarnation this cannot be done.


              K:For the everyday life the knowledge about karma makes life just, as you know that the seemingly unjust incidences of fate are karmic responses of your own actions and it makes it easier to accept them and easier to handle them, and it makes it possible to handle karmic causes, from the current life, consciously within this life.

              J: The traditional Christian alternative is "surrendering to the wisdom of the higher powers", but this seems to require from men today stronger soul forces because it is not aimed at the rational soul.


              K: If you lie without consciously being aware of it, it becomes part of your astral body as karma, but if you are aware it becomes part of your current karma and you can handle the karma in the current life, and that is the reason, at end of the day, to think about the happenings of the day. -- Kim

              The same principle can be explained by simple psychology if you change "astral body" by "unconscious", and "current karma" by "conscious awareness of how you are the creator of your life". No need for karma.

              At this point I don't see the absolute or dogmatic necessity of karma. Instead of karma being indispensable today I would say that "a heightened consciousness" is what is indispensable, and this is not achieved by rationalization based on abstract principles or "laws" but by a re-education and intensification or liberation of thinking (I think Federico was saying something very similar).

              Juan
            • Kim Graae Munch
              Without karma you have an OT religion with a Father god which is telling you what is good and bad and which punishes you when you are bad. With karma you are
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 3 9:14 AM
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                Message
                Without karma you have an OT religion with a Father god which is telling you what is good and bad and which punishes you when you are bad. With karma you are creating your own future based on your actions and with a loving god who bears your burden with you, and who will help you when you are ready to be helped.
                Kim
                -----Original Message-----
                From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Juan Revilla
                Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 4:58 PM
                To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Real, True *I* or Ego

                 

                K:Reincarnation makes you understand that you are a spiritual being, part of cosmos, and not just a physical entity, where karma makes you understand that "action has consequences", and of these two I think that reincarnation has the most profound influence of our thinking, where karma really only affirms our intuition.

                J: I agree with you about reincarnation. Karma as a principle or a "law" is in most cases only rationalization, i.e., we can rationalize the same thing without using the concept of karma (more below). With reincarnation this cannot be done.


                K:For the everyday life the knowledge about karma makes life just, as you know that the seemingly unjust incidences of fate are karmic responses of your own actions and it makes it easier to accept them and easier to handle them, and it makes it possible to handle karmic causes, from the current life, consciously within this life.

                J: The traditional Christian alternative is "surrendering to the wisdom of the higher powers", but this seems to require from men today stronger soul forces because it is not aimed at the rational soul.


                K: If you lie without consciously being aware of it, it becomes part of your astral body as karma, but if you are aware it becomes part of your current karma and you can handle the karma in the current life, and that is the reason, at end of the day, to think about the happenings of the day. -- Kim

                The same principle can be explained by simple psychology if you change "astral body" by "unconscious", and "current karma" by "conscious awareness of how you are the creator of your life". No need for karma.

                At this point I don't see the absolute or dogmatic necessity of karma. Instead of karma being indispensable today I would say that "a heightened consciousness" is what is indispensable, and this is not achieved by rationalization based on abstract principles or "laws" but by a re-education and intensification or liberation of thinking (I think Federico was saying something very similar).

                Juan

              • dottie zold
                Juan: At this point I don t see the absolute or dogmatic necessity of karma. Instead of karma being indispensable today I would say that a heightened
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 3 11:51 PM
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                  Juan:
                  "At this point I don't see the absolute or dogmatic necessity of karma. Instead of karma being indispensable today I would say that "a heightened consciousness" is what is indispensable, and this is not achieved by rationalization based on abstract principles or "laws" but by a re-education and intensification or liberation of thinking (I think
                  Federico was saying something very similar)."
                   
                  Dottie: Liberation or no liberation there is karma it is part of the cosmic worlds lawfulness....Do ....okay so someone who might know their past lives or one or two can begin to see the threads of the past and what is being or trying to be changed today. I can tell you I have seen exactly the karma of the past meeting me today, in the last two years and I mean exact people and although not the same circumstances I can see that it was I who had to change in what was being presented in this lifetime. And I could see where I was being gifted by how it was that I responded to certain things that caused Love to be in the room regardless of what it looked like to anyone else.
                   
                  Karma is, it is what we do in the moment that speaks to karma and how it is played out. d
                   
                   

                   
                  "Hence only by means of love can we give real help for karma to work out in the right way." Rudolf Steiner



                  --- On Wed, 3/3/10, Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...> wrote:

                  From: Kim Graae Munch <kimgm@...>
                  Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Real, True *I* or Ego
                  To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, March 3, 2010, 9:14 AM



                  Without karma you have an OT religion with a Father god which is telling you what is good and bad and which punishes you when you are bad. With karma you are creating your own future based on your actions and with a loving god who bears your burden with you, and who will help you when you are ready to be helped.
                  Kim
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Juan Revilla
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 4:58 PM
                  To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Real, True *I* or Ego

                   
                  K:Reincarnation makes you understand that you are a spiritual being, part of cosmos, and not just a physical entity, where karma makes you understand that "action has consequences", and of these two I think that reincarnation has the most profound influence of our thinking, where karma really only affirms our intuition.

                  J: I agree with you about reincarnation. Karma as a principle or a "law" is in most cases only rationalization, i.e., we can rationalize the same thing without using the concept of karma (more below). With reincarnation this cannot be done.


                  K:For the everyday life the knowledge about karma makes life just, as you know that the seemingly unjust incidences of fate are karmic responses of your own actions and it makes it easier to accept them and easier to handle them, and it makes it possible to handle karmic causes, from the current life, consciously within this life.

                  J: The traditional Christian alternative is "surrendering to the wisdom of the higher powers", but this seems to require from men today stronger soul forces because it is not aimed at the rational soul.


                  K: If you lie without consciously being aware of it, it becomes part of your astral body as karma, but if you are aware it becomes part of your current karma and you can handle the karma in the current life, and that is the reason, at end of the day, to think about the happenings of the day. -- Kim

                  The same principle can be explained by simple psychology if you change "astral body" by "unconscious", and "current karma" by "conscious awareness of how you are the creator of your life". No need for karma.

                  At this point I don't see the absolute or dogmatic necessity of karma. Instead of karma being indispensable today I would say that "a heightened consciousness" is what is indispensable, and this is not achieved by rationalization based on abstract principles or "laws" but by a re-education and intensification or liberation of thinking (I think Federico was saying something very similar).

                  Juan



                • Juan Revilla
                  ... I don t question any of this, Dottie. Of course Karma is, and it is an essential, indispensable part of Spiritual Science. But looking at karma from the
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 4 1:16 AM
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                    Dottie: Liberation or no liberation there is karma it is part of the cosmic worlds lawfulness....Do ....okay so someone who might know their past lives or one or two can begin to see the threads of the past and what is being or trying to be changed today. I can tell you I have seen exactly the karma of the past meeting me today, in the last two years and I mean exact people and although not the same circumstances I can see that it was I who had to change in what was being presented in this lifetime. And I could see where I was being gifted by how it was that I responded to certain things that caused Love to be in the room regardless of what it looked like to anyone else.
                     Karma is, it is what we do in the moment that speaks to karma and how it is played out. d

                    I don't question any of this, Dottie. Of course Karma is, and it is an essential, indispensable part of Spiritual Science. But looking at karma from the point of view of Spiritual Science is completely dispensable for the spiritual life and for the future of Mankind for a very simple reason: there are other ways of looking at the same thing, different thoughts or images that arise from the same reality, and the difference between these thoughts or images or forms is important.

                    What I mean by this is that the reality or principle or law called "karma" can be experienced and considered differently in the age of the consciousness soul, without the need of that concept at all. Remember the distinction Steiner makes between moral teaching (buddhism) and moral impulse (christianity), remember also that the concept of karma is a legacy from the spiritual past, and originally in buddhism it is impersonal and abstract, while in Christianity everything is personal: we relate to "being" directly, not to concepts.

                    So consider for example (and hypothetically) the word "karma" in comparison to the word "responsability" used instead. Let's assume that the reality, the experience, is the same seen from outside, but one word refers to a concept, the other to a moral impulse. The same with "pay or balance my debts" against "fulfill my duty". Even though they may refer to the same thing, the way of experiencing is very different. One involves the *I* directly and is of the consciousness soul, the other doesn't, it is indirect and belongs to the rational soul.

                    It is the difference between talking about something from an abstract or "detached" point of view (for example Spiritual Science) and talking about it directly from the *I*, from inside the experience with a strong presence of mind or thinking. At the level of the experience the reference to the concept "karma" is obsolete and represents a hindrance, it is unnecessary.

                    Facing Christ as our "Lord of Karma" is a direct, face-to-face personal encounter based on moral awareness and recognition of the other: "I see", "I know", "I understand", "I hear you", "I acknoweldge", "I accept", "I obey", "I do". It is a relationship between two beings. When the *I* is involved everything is a mutual relationship and a dialogue in which the concept "karma" is irrelevant and instead there is responsibility and action, doing: --"I see what I have done, I understand, I accept, I obey, I do".

                    For the sake of analogy, imagine Paul on the road to Damascus: had he been a spiritual scientists or researcher, he would have said "what are you?" or "who are you?", instead he said "what do you want me to do?" -- and he did it. This (I think) is beatifully described by the image of entering willingly and joyously into the flame.

                    Karma is the language of concepts and is not "christic", it keeps you going round and round about Life. Duty, responsibility, acceptance, etc. is the language of action and obedience and the path of Christ.

                    Juan
                  • Juan Revilla
                    Found something interesting in this respect: http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/FaithLoveHope/19111202p01.html [BEGIN QUOTE] But this form of karmic perception
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 4 1:34 AM
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                      Found something interesting in this respect:

                      http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/FaithLoveHope/19111202p01.html
                      [BEGIN QUOTE]
                      But this form of karmic perception will arise in such a way that here and there the figure of the etheric Christ will be directly visible to some individual — the actual Christ as He is living in the astral world — not in a physical body, but as for the newly awakened faculties of men He will manifest on earth; as counselor and protector of those who need advice, help or solace in the loneliness of their lives.
                      The time is coming when human beings, when they feel depressed and miserable, for one or other reason, will increasingly find the help of their fellows less important and valuable. This is because the force of individuality, of individual life, will count for more and more, while the power of one man to work helpfully upon the soul of another, which held good in the past, will tend constantly to diminish. In its stead the great Counselor will appear, in etheric form.
                      [END QUOTE]

                      and also this about karma and reincarnation:

                      [BEGIN QUOTE]
                      What then does Spiritual Science give us? By revealing the all-embracing laws of karma and reincarnation, it gives us something which permeates us with spiritual hope, just as does our awareness on the physical plane that the sun will rise to-morrow and that seeds will eventually grow into plants. It shows, if we understand karma, that our physical body, which will perish into dust when we have gone through the gate of death, can through the forces permeating us with hope be re-built for a new life. Spiritual Science fills men with the strongest forces of hope. Were this Spiritual Science, this new revelation for the present time, to be rejected, men naturally would return to earth in future all the same, for life on earth would not cease on account of people's ignorance of its laws. Human beings would incarnate again; but there would be something very strange about these incarnations. Men would gradually become a race with bodies wrinkled and shriveled all over, earthly bodies which would finally be so crippled that people would be entirely incapacitated. To put it briefly, in future incarnations a condition of dying away, of withering up, would assail mankind if their consciousness, and from there the hidden depths of their being right down into the physical body, were not given fresh life through the power of hope.
                      This power of hope arises through the certainty of knowledge gained from the laws of karma and reincarnation. Already there is a tendency in human beings to produce withering bodies, which in future would become increasingly rickety even in the very bones. Marrow will be brought to the bones, forces of life to the nerves, by this new revelation, whose value will not reside merely in theories but in its life-giving forces — above all in those of hope.
                      [END QUOTE]

                      Juan
                    • Juan Revilla
                      ... bah! bad memory... he first said who are you ? -- maybe bad example. J.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 4 7:54 AM
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                        For the sake of analogy, imagine Paul on the road to Damascus: had he been a spiritual scientists or researcher, he would have said "what are you?" or "who are you?", instead he said "what do you want me to do?" -- and he did it.

                        bah! bad memory... he first said "who are you"? -- maybe bad example.

                        J.
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